Pints With Aquinas
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- I talk with Byzantine priest and co-host of Catholic Stuff You Should Know, Fr. Michael O'Loughlin about the Eastern Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, the Filioque, and much, much more (it's a 3 hour chat, gang).
---
Thanks to our sponsors!!!
The Catholic Woodworker: catholicwoodwo... (use code: mattfradd)
Covenant Eyes: www.covenantey... (use promo code: mattfradd)
Hallow: hallow.app/mat...
---
Catholic Stuff You Should Know: catholicstuffp...
Fr. Michael's Twitter: pa...
---
👆Subscribe to my channel here: / @pintswithaquinas
🔔 (make sure to hit the BELL icon to be notified of new videos!)
🎧Listen to The Matt Fradd Show podcast here:
podcasts.apple...
📖Get my book "Does God Exist?" here: www.amazon.com...
🍺Support me on Patreon (Thank you!): / mattfradd
Facebook: / mattfradd
Twitter: / mattfradd
Instagram: / mattfradd
Apologies if I pushed back a little too hard at times in this one. Totally love and respect Fr. Michael O'Loughlin.
You didn't push back too hard at all. I see it more as seeking clarification and interacting rather than just passive listening and/or working as a question prompter.
Great work! I thought it was one of the best podcasts/interviews so far.
I personally love when you push back (whether it's legitimate disagreement, or Devil's Advocate). I would say as long as you are upfront with your guest at the beginning, and they are ok with the tension, you should keep doing this.
There have been several times on PWA where your guest has said something that didn't sit well with me, or that I felt needed some clarification, and you pushed back on it. I'm very grateful that you did, because otherwise I would have come out of those episodes very dissatisfied.
No, you definitely should have pushed back. I love and respect him but he says some things that I really disagree with.
I enjoyed the pushback. It was good to talk through certain points which were alarming at first
This one was the best video that I watched in 2020, and I watched over 1k videos
as an orthodox I am deeply saddened everytime I see a sign of the schism. Unity is what we first and foremost should strive for. The catholics are trying harder than us might I add.
We wil be united, its time to get together brother in Christ🙏✝️☦❤
As a fellow Orthodox Christian I agree 100%. I long for unity. I don’t see how it’s possible without Divine Intervention. But it hurts me deeply as well. I do love by catholic brethren and pray with them for the day the Church is again One. One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
It makes me sad because I love the liturgies of the Eastern Orthodox Church but I also love my Catholic faith too. Hopefully someday we will be unified and hash out the disagreements.
@@TheBusttheboss If you love the eastern liturgy and wish to stay catholic, there is the eastern (or Greek) catholic church for you
As a catholic I find this diplomacy actually the best one. Catholics gave to clean some things and Orthodoxy is aware of that. It is members of a family helping one another to get back on track.
I just wish being catholic means being catholic and enjoy and loving the different traditions of the west and east.... pray the jesus prayer and the rosary ..... ITS ALL CATHOLIC ... we need unity
Imagine if you were protestant... 10,000+ churches to choose from!
Chryss, 1 God, help us !
Why Denver has Catholic community grouphomes for seminarians & lay CATH, & Santa Rosa Dio. Has TLM, 24/7 ADOR. SINGLE MEN NEEDED TO LIVE COMMUNITY PEACE.
Perhaps us western Catholics should start looking for Eastern traditions we can incorporate that will be blessings for us and make them feel welcome to join with us.
Agreed and all the rites should have voting Cardinals
Palestinian Melkite Catholic here, for me it’s not a matter of whether or not we should be in union, it’s a matter of whether or not we have the right to stay divided.
Wonderful interview. As a Eastern Catholic in India I have noticed that lot of discussions of eastern Catholics doesn't go east enough ie stops at Eastern Europe. I am a member of Syro-Malankara Catholic Church and I just wanted to make our existence known. According to our traditions, history of "St. Thomas Christians" (or Nasranis colloquially) go all the way back to first century to the arrival of Apostle "Doubting" Thomas in India (who was also killed in India).
Speaking of Latin persecution, when Portuguese arrived in India(they first arrived in our state, Kerala), they tried to forcefully convert Nasrani Christians into Roman Catholicism and atrocities were committed. Besides violence against Christians, our invaluable documents that recorded our history and traditions were burned and other valuables (gold) that beloged to Nasrani Churches were taken away.
For you fans of TLM, our Holy Masses until recently were in Syriac, a variant of Aramaic(local tongue is Malayalam).
Rome always kills wherever it goes
Interesting to know about the Portuguese thing. Btw, did you know that your church used to be a part of the "Church of the East." Many churches in Iraq including my church still pray in Syriac (our native tongue)
@@Fadi.N I lost my original account. Of course, our churches intrinsically linked. Their is a group in Kerala called 'Knanaya Catholics' who were Christian migrants from middle east who came to Kerala more than a thousand years ago. They only marry among themselves and have their own unique culture and identity. Hugely influential community and probably responsible form current form of Nasrani Christianity.
How are you guys doing? Last I heard its not a good time to be Christian where you are. Their is a lot of anti-Christian 'talk' in our state too. No action yet.
@@robertedwards909 I don't think Roman Catholic Church itself is responsible. As far as I know, at that time their was an ordinance from the Pope to the Portuguese to facilitate propagation of Roman Catholicism in India. Portuguese targeted us to make the job easier and to boost the numbers for the Pope(probably thought of us as heretics too). Their was a Portuguese inquisition in another state called Goa and it was bad. Lot of Christians from that state have hispanic last names. Portuguese held that state till Indian independence(from the British) in 1947. They were forced out by the Indian army and it wasn't pleasant.
Mana Manana 2 you are correct the Roman Catholic Church was not responsible for the actions of the Portuguese in India. I have also read the documents from the Synod of Udayamperoor, and have come to understand from a very good Syro-Malabar theologian priest that there were mistakes on both sides that added fuel to the fire of suspicion of heresy. Fact is there were a few rotten apples on both sides but because the Portuguese had the military strength, they forcefully enforced Latinization to root out anything they deemed as practices that came in from Hinduism. Definitely not something that would happen today with proper communication channels between Rome and the Eastern Churches.
Matt, have an Orthodox priest on!
Lol, that'd never happen.
Because of Matt Fred we started looking for a Byzantine Church to check it out and found one. Talked to the priest about joining, etc. He asked, "How did you find us?" We said, "Oh, this RUclipsr, Matt Fred is Byzantine, so we got curious." The priest said, "Oh? I am expecting a text from him." We looked at him and said, "Wait, you look familiar, you were on Matt Fred." Fr. Michael, "Yes, I was." There aren't many Byzantines around to interview and we feel blessed to have them right near.
I'm a Greek Catholic and I don't consider myself "Orthodox in Union with Rome". During the occupation of the Soviet Union, Eastern Catholics were given the option of becoming Orthodox to escape persecution. Many Byzantine Catholics today simply look to what the Orthodox do as the metric for how we ought to be. I'm no Latinizer, but we make an equal mistake and sacrifice our self-determination when we outsource our identity to the Eastern Orthodox. This is why the title "Orthodox in Union with Rome" has not gained traction in places like Ukraine. Imagine if after the War of Independence, Americans called themselves "British in disunion with the Crown". Would there really be the same agency there? Nope. We have our own identity that is separate from a mere East-West dichotomy.
Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate Fr. Micheal and believe his ministry is very important and good. This is just a point of nuance I think is important for Easterners.
@Philippe Labonte I know what you're talking about. There is no set teaching among the Eastern Orthodox churches in regards to sexual ethics. If you're wondering what Greek Catholics truly believe, I suggest picking up a copy of "Christ Our Pascha". It's our catechism. Rather than hear the uninformed opinion of every dope on the internet, Christ Our Pascha is an authoritative and official text.
This is an important and helpful perspective.
I am Orthodox. As an Orthodox Christian, I also use the term Catholic to describe myself and my church. If I were ROMAN Catholic, I would also think that the term "Orthodox" applied to me since orthodox means true worshipers, so the problem I would have is not in calling Greek Catholics "Orthodox"' but implying that Roman Catholics are not "Orthodox".
Americans literally considered themselves true Anglos until like the 1950s though. Read The Rise and Fall of Anglo-America by Eric Kaufmann.
We have to get Fr. Michael O'Loughlin on the 10 Minute Bible Hour
And Matt Fradd
I agree!
"Jesus in, sin out" Never heard the Jesus prayer summed up that way. Outstanding.
I was hoping for Matt Fradd to get deeper into Eastern Catholicism!
It's finally coming
And man do we get in deep! Over 3 hours of Eastern Christianity goodness!
@@pintswithaquinas Hey Matt - I live in Grand Rapids, MI. When you visit into MI for the Kepha men's conference in March, if you have time visit our local Ukrainian Catholic parish (St. Michael's) for our Friday at 6:30PM Pre-Sanctified Gifts service and our Divine Liturgy is at 10AM on Sunday. Hopefully see you there. :-)
Glory to Jesus Christ!
I attend to Latin mass Novus Ordo with Gregorian chant weekly. Beautiful! The priests sing the entire mass. Reverend and uplifting.
This is one of the most insightful discussions about Orthodoxy and Catholicism I have ever heard. Much to contemplate, thanks Matt and Fr. Michael x
I appreciate this interview. As a Catholic who attends the NO, the TLM, and the BDL, something that has honestly been a detriment to my faith is seeing the schism, de facto and de jure, of East and West. I was nearly brought to tears at hearing the horrible things committed by our Latin brothers against our Greek brothers, especially in a time of crisis. The reason I didn’t leave the Church was because of the beautiful liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. Who knows how many people in this time of crisis would say the same had they been taught to breathe with both lungs? Thank you, Father, for your witness and honesty!
Fr. Michael is awesome, and I *HIGHLY* recommend the "Catholic Stuff You Should Know" podcast.
As an Orthodox, I see Byzantine-Catholicism as the shield against secularization within the Roman-Catholic Church, and the bridge for reunification of our churches, if only the Byzantine-Catholics reached the Papacy, or became the leading order within the Roman-Catholic Church.
Its not impossible, its who ever the cardinals vote on as who they want for pope. I adore Francis because he is about serving the poor, he is getting rid of the bishops the covered up the sexual assault cases that happened. I think he is about drawing people into the church not wanting them to leave.
No true Orthodox wants reunification. They can come back to Orthodoxy. That's the only way.
I’m enjoying the abundance of you talking with priests Matt! They have such a refreshing perspective on things
The priest discouraged you from going to a Novus Ordo mass. That's a bit strange for a mainstream podcast.
22:06 Actually the word Istanbul as far as I know is a turkified version of "eis tin polin" which in greek means "into the city". What the Turks as well called Constantinople was "Konstantinyye"
One of the most engaging, honest and uplifting conversation that I have heard. Thank you for posting this.
As an Orthodox, I have to be honest, trusting the Romans with the ability to excommunicate us is a HUGE ask. This has only been compounded by the pachamama stuff and abuse scandals. We want reunification, but with a healthy church.
As someone strongly considering an EO catechumenate, I have to say that I find it difficult to see the EOC as significantly more healthy than the RCC. The EO aren't nearly as unified as they should be, which is perhaps as big a barrier to RC/EO dialogue as anything else. Sure in America everyone's friendly(ish), but this is not always the case abroad. The EO can't even have a pan-Orthodox council because ROC won't show up when Ukraine's at the table, for example. This kind of stuff really bothers me and has tempered my zeal for the EOC profoundly.
I very much prefer the theology and traditions of EO which have blessed me tremendously, but ecclesiastically? I don't know that the EOC is (or rather, ARE) leaps and bounds better-off by any conceivable metric. Sure, the situation with the pope is a mess, but so is the bishopry in many places, such as Serbia. Even here in America, "One city one bishop" it's said in some canon or another, and yet there are 5+ jurisdictions represented in my medium-sized city. I was definitely sold a beautiful picture of an unfractured, clearly thriving Church, but having looked beneath the surface, I must say it's important that we wake up and take responsibility for EO failures in unification.
No, Rome is not in good shape. I'll go ahead and venture to say they're in really bad shape, at large. But it's not exactly a super-homogenized, high-functioning Orthodox wonderland on the EO side of the house.
I'm new to all of this and quite ignorant, but I think it is very important that we try to emphasize our own role in unification. Again, I barely know what I'm talking about, but this really smacks of a plank/speck issue to me.
Whichever church I end up in, (probably EO, but that's beside the point) I hope to be under a bishop that prioritizes reconciliation. I got enough of purposeless finger-pointing as a Protestant. I'd rather be a part of a parish that seeks solutions, however impossible they may seem.
Anyway, I hope that the EOC is more functional than it looks by my current estimation. I'd love to be wrong on this one. I have no right to preach on this, obviously, so I'll fade back into the internet now.
Blessings!
@@CetomimusGillii brother, everywhere humans are there will be problems, but there’s a difference between that and outright heresy
Sounds like entitlement to me, and a willingness to go against God for your personal preferences. I think the same things about Roman Catholics who are willing to abandon God because of Francis. We cannot fathom the amount of pressure he is under from both sides to appease both to try to keep unity. He’s in a torture chamber with all limbs tied, and everyone’s pulling as hard as they can.
If Orthodox were truly submissive to God they wouldn’t be trying to force their way back into the church, they would humbly serve however God asked them to. It’s pretty easy to unify, just reunite yourself under the Pope in the proper hierarchy. The pride of people unwilling to bend the knee and join Gods one church is a bit scary. I’m obviously not the judge and I understand my opinion is practically meaningless, just praying for Gods will to be done. All I’m hearing is “we want reunification with God, but on our terms” ergo “we want to go to heaven, but on our terms” it’s absurd.
@danielsullivan7541 I understand what you are saying. But, the same thing can also be true from an Orthodox perspective. On one hand, as an Orthodox Christian I would love to see our churches (Catholic and Orthodox) re-united as One Church! However, the real question is, "at what cost"? Would the Roman Church be willing, or even able, to give up the Papacy? No way! And would the Orthodox ever be willing to come under Papal Authority as the "Supreme Pontiff"? Again, no way! And both sides have very strong reasoning behind their understanding of the Papacy, whether it is "Pro" (i.e. Roman Catholic), or "Con" (i.e. Eastern Orthodox).
So, while the idea of "Unity" sounds nice, realistically it isn't even possible, outside of a literal miracle from God!
Matt you are quickly becoming my go-to on all things Catholic! Thank you for always being considerate of your audience and not being afraid to take a step back so that you can really delve into a topic. Great discussion. Great job. God bless you!
He is wonderful and very cutting edge. Yet he maintains traditional views. The Catholic Brothers are also excellent. They might be called the Christian Brothers. I forget.
This was cool I just went to a Byzantine church the other day I was amazing.... you should do this more with other rites and diff kinds of priest too
Matt you’re so good at raising the objections that the audience may have, either that or you and I have a similar train of thought. There are so many times that you ask for clarity on something and give Father the opportunity to clarify on something that would otherwise leave a bad taste in the mouth.
“We are called to heroism and martyrdom. Every Christian is.”
I highly recommend the awesome personal testimony of someone living out this calling in Africa, Look up the book “Voice in the night” by Surprise Sithole. His interview is on RUclips.
I really like what he said about emphasizing the ideal. It drives me crazy hearing the bare minimum so emphasized all the time.
Fr. Michael's perspective on Motherhood and the role of women within the Church is beautiful. I hope more women see and hear this - a good father praising the beauty of motherhood. Hearing that was so healing.
I'm Roman Catholic I'm greatful for the education of differences . Thank you for explaining. I always wonder about those topics.
I watched the whole things and it's 4:29 am
I have been looking for answers to these questions for some time now, God bless you both for making this video. I am a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic and have felt and understood all of these ideas Fr Michael is talking about, but you hardly every hear someone SAY it...especially within the Ruthenian Church itself (or elsewhere). So it's wonderful to have these understandings of union vindicated! The Eastern Catholics used to be called Uniate...perhaps Orthodox and Catholics need to adopt such a name when they unify!
and to Mr Fradd, attending an Orthodox Church, which is apostolic, is definitely a good thing. Recognizing that both catholics and orthodox are apostolic is one of the similarities of union that Fr Michael is trying to relay. Peace, brother!
I pray everyday for unity!
The Novus Ordo Mass CAN be done beautifully, just as stated in the documents of Vatican 2, but very few parishes in the world do celebrate the Mass beautifully, A couple of great examples are St. John Cantius in Chicago and the Holy Family Church in Toronto. Both celebrate the Novus Ordo and the Tridentine Masses beautifully.
Of all the theological conversations I have ever heard, this is the best. Concise, well thought out, great back and forth and not too heavy on the theology/philosophy jargon, so that it is easy to follow. Great job Matt, this was a perfect conversation. I really learned a lot about Catholicism from this talk. God bless you. Christos Kyrios!
Brilliant, Matt! You're doing a great job with all of your videos!!! Disclose the truth in order to dispel ignorance and make way for solutions to division by praying to the Lord to unite us upon disclosing our points of division.
No holds barred. Great guests! May God bless you to spread throughout the world! Ad mejorem Dei gloriam!
The Byzantine Catholic Rite may be a good place to start for protestants who want to go home.
Church not rite!!!
What a wealth of knowledge from Fr. Michael, and a great interview from Matt. Thank you very much for sharing
Excellent understanding of our ROMAN AND GREEK Christian faith.
He needs to write this as a book...wow...
Thank you for making this incredible interview happen Matt! I think this video itself is an important step towards unity and ecumenism. I've always found within my heart a deep desire for unity in the body, and this interview and the insights the both of you shared really helped have a deeper conviction and desire to pray for unity.
SOOOO HYPED!!!! Thanks for providing high quality Catholic content mate
Brilliant talk! :) Best I ever listen about Eastern Orthodoxy
Franek Woods it was interesting but didn’t really represent Eastern Orthodoxy very well, in my view as one.
This was immensely helpful to me. I am a protestant who has been looking into converting Catholicism. I was thrown off a bit when I also started reading about Orthodoxy and found it quite compelling as well. Its good to hear how much of what the 2 believe can be reconciled
Hey Matt could you do a video on more Byzantine devotions and writings like the Philokalia? God bless!
I love this. I absolutely love this! Best RUclips channel ever! I learned more than I've learned about this my whole life. I understand now.
As a mother of 13 children and 7 losses for a total of 20 lives having lived under my heart - I was totally crushed by the pope's comment about "breeding like rabbits" It is indeed a sacrifice especially in our secular culture where I, as a woman, choosing to stay home am seen by so many as a loser who has not contributed (financially via work and paying taxes) to society and as a betrayer of the feminist movement. Yet - I have always asked how is being a cashier making just barely over minimum wage and having to have the government subsidize your daycare - better than staying home to raise your own children - at least until they are school age? I ask this because how many of these woman who are out of the home working are actually in jobs we tend to praise as heroic - doctors, nurses, teachers... Thank you, Fr O'Loughlin, for your defense of the large family and the strain/martyrdom it is to raise such a family in today's world. At almost 60, I am still home continuing to home educate our last two school age children as well as guide our 21 year old vaccine injured child. My husband, forced into early retirement in 2020, continues to work hard to help support us financially and I have picked up apart time job as a residential supervisor at a pro-life maternity home for college students. And yes - every single sacrifice it has taken to bring these beautiful children is/was totally worth it. Now we are not only enjoying friendships with the adult children but we are also enjoying their children - which are holding at 13 in combination. We all waiting to see who has the 14th grand baby - thus tipping the scale over 13. Some of our story can be found at Our Bakersdozen ~ formerly mum2twelve ourbakersdozen.wordpress.com/
This is such a great and exciting interview. Thanks for doing this Matt.
My maternal grandfather's and grandmother's family were this (Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church), ethnic "Lemko" My mother's family are now all Roman/Latin Rite Catholics.
Man, what a good episode. So many things resonated with me here, especially the bit about needing people to “throw rocks” from both Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox to keep the Church and Pope in check. Also loved the part about taking things to prayer and God giving us the grace to make it through hardships, even if it’s still difficult. So good.
AMAZING DISCUSSION MATT! BRING FATHER BACK FOR ANOTHER ROUND!
Interesting episode, I used to try praying the Miraculous Medal Prayer in the same breathing fashion as the Jesus Prayer. However, I was doing it in a more scrupulous manner, in a desperate effort to overcome certain habitual sins I was enslaved to. Now that, thanks to Our Lord's Grace and Our Lady's Intercession, I am free from those sins, I'm going to try taking up breathing the Miraculous Medal Prayer again; both for the Church, from Our Holy Father, to all my brother and sister lay Catholics; and for my own scrupulous-free spiritual growth.
This dude is the joe rogan of Catholicism!
Still, pray for Joe Rogan's conversion, so Joe Rogan can be the Joe Rogan of Catholicism 🤣🤣
hey Matt I am so grateful that you made this video I'm currently reading a book by fr Spyridon Bailey of the Orthodox Church the book is titled "the ancient way." Many of the notes that I've been taking our being are being answered in this. Keep up the good work. God bless you and your family 👉✝
Can you also cover the Syriac and Coptic Eastern rites commonly called Oriental Eastern rites? I think there is a difference in liturgical prayers from the Oriental Catholics and the Eastern Catholics. Most people coming on to your show to discuss Eastern rite Catholics are mainly Byzantine, please bring in someone from the Syro-Malankara or Syro-Malabar or the Coptic Catholic Church
Seeing someone from the Syro-Malabar church would be amazing. I know we've got heaps of them in America and even a few fresh-faced priests :)
@@renjithjoseph7135 expat Syro-Malankara here. Hello.
That’s awesome @Renjith Joseph @Mana! I think the American Catholic population needs to hear from the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara rites. People are so polarized here between the Traditionalists who want only the Latin mass and the regular Catholics who want the Ordinary Form of the mass from Pope St. Paul VI. There are groups who reject Vatican 2 and want to “restore” everything back to pre-Council norms. There are groups that are anti Pope Francis and groups that reject the papacy saying they are the true Catholic Church. The spirit of Americanism has crept the conservative Catholic society. Eastern rite Catholics can help restore sanity to the never ending debates.
Well this super exciting!!
I'm glad I watched this today. I learned a lot in this video but it is A LOT to take in for sure, probably have to listen to it again lol
You should have an Orthodox guest on!
Surprisingly moving. I love priests!
I'm a listener of Catholic Stuff You Should Know podcast, so this is my first time seeing a face to the voice I always hear. noice
Amazing interview
I am a so glad to be part of the Romanian Greek Catholic Church because our bishops and priests make it very clear that in all matters of faith and doctrine we are identical to the Universal Catholic Church. Our liturgical expression is very different and I am proud to be part of this beautiful byzantine heritage, but in all things we are humble subjects of Rome.
Under the communist regime, a dozen bishops and possibly hundreds of priests were treated horribly and tortured, not to renounce their Christian faith, but only to leave Catholicism and join Orthodoxy. They were offered high ranking positions in the Orthodox Church, but rather preferred to live the rest of their lives in the most miserable of conditions, being mocked and beaten by communist prison guards, eating close to nothing, being subject to useless hard labor. To leave Rome was unthinkable to them. Their allegiance was to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ. Pope Pius the XII said of these bishops: "Jesus had 12 apostles of which one betrayed. The Greek Catholic Church in Romania had 12 bishops of which none betrayed."
I am saddened by this priests lukewarmness when it comes to Catholic Doctrine. Please, do not take him as an example of Eastern Catholicism and our relation to Rome.
The Orthodox are our estranged brothers and we must do all that we can to bring our family back together. But in doing that we must hold steadfast to our Father in heaven who has instituted a "Brother in Charge" in Rome.
Hi! I am glad to read your point of view. Why do you say that this priest is lukewarm?
In theory, Eastern Catholic Churches do not differ from the Latin Church only in liturgical expression, but also in aspects of theology that they highlight. It is not clear from your comment that you are aware of this (or that your Church points this out).
I know a little about the Romanian Greek Catholic Church. Maybe it is not the most latinized church among the Eastern Catholic Churches, but it is significantly latinized from my point of view. Personally this saddens me, although I understand this can be a result of various acceptable reasons. I mention this especially because you talk about Orthodox as estranged brothers, but I don't think you realize that if a Romanian Orthodox wants to come in communion with Rome and wants to keep his Byzantine tradition, there is a big chance he would not like to be part of the Romanian Greek Catholic Church. If the Romanian Orthodox Church would come into union with Rome, I don't think it would look like the Romanian Greek Catholic Church.
@@redlander55 thanks for your reply!
The Code of Canon Law of Oriental Churches and the Western Code of Canon Law are (almost) identical on the point of The Supreme Authority of the Church through The Roman Pontiff and the College of Bishops. Compare Title III (Can 42 - 54) of the Eastern Canon to Book II, Part II, Section I, Chapter I (Can. 330 - 341) of the Western Canon. This is just an example of how East and West hold to the same beliefs (in this case, on points of authority). Much of the Eastern Canon is just a word for word copy and restructuring of the Western Canon, with slight adaptations.
Now, it is true that the Eastern Theological tradition does emphasize different points of doctrine differently, and thinks about things rather differently than the West. However, when it comes to doctrine, and not just (small t) tradition, East and West are completely united within the Catholic Church.
A better view of this, imo, can be seen in Matt's discussion with Fr. Jason Charron (ruclips.net/user/liveSmrHO_BCBtE?feature=share).
Western Canon: www.vatican.va/archive/cod-iuris-canonici/eng/documents/cic_lib2-cann330-367_en.html
Eastern Canon: www.jgray.org/codes/cceo90eng.html
Romanian Translation of Eastern Canon (with references to Western Canon): www.bru.ro/varia/cceo/?titlu=3
Fr Mike! I used to listen to CSYSK....I have to get back to it, it was a blessing.
Oh, God, please bring us together so we may fulfill the prayer of Our Lord that we will be truly One.!
2:46:00 I have a question as a Protestant. Like he said, during the reformation Protestants generally had a discomfort with certain aspects of Marian devotion and the Eucharist and that’s why the Catholic Church emphasizes it. 500 years later most Protestants still have a discomfort with Marian devotion and the Catholic Church continues emphasize it in response. As a Protestant I’m kind of hurt by this because my discomforts with certain aspects of Marian devotion truly comes from my conscience. Believe me I would love to either not have these convictions or at least be able to ignore them to further commune with the Catholic church but I simply can’t. The Catholic attitude of “oh that’s where you’re struggling? Well then I’m going to emphasize it” gives me the feeling that the Catholic Church is happily putting a stumbling block for the Protestants. Like when Paul talks about a brother not being able to eat certain meat because they have certain convictions about it, whether those convictions are legitimate or not isn’t the point, the point is to come along side your brother and not eat the meat in front of them as to not put a stumbling stone in front of them. This feels similar to me. Instead of abhorring Protestants who are honestly just wrestling with convictions about these topics and purposely shoving it more in their face and emphasizing it more than you would have, why not give them the room they need to deal with these things? If the Catholic Church is to be my authority then I need to be able to feel vulnerable with her, but once I am vulnerable she abhors my struggles and wants to instead emphasize them over loving me in Christ?
I agree, I would love to be unified with The Church, but find it impossible to get answers to my questions- either because the parishioner honestly doesn't know OR they're arrogant and dismissive and treat me like I'm a worthless heretic because I'm Protestant. I hear it from Matt here as well, but I can at least get some basic information even if most of it is at an apologetics level. I obviously havent taken Catechism, so the more mystical aspects dont make sense. I wish Matt or his guest would break it all down more. If Catholics are interested in making Converts, they might try explaining
a little more and insulting less 😊.
If you both would like any questions answered still all this time later. Please let me know :) Beautiful reading this, very refreshing!
I’d say also that honestly being Catholic most didn’t know or understand what the debates were about, and were also ruthlessly attacked by many “anti Catholic” sects. This has indeed caused a whiplash in the opposite direction, with the major caveat being that the Catholic Church does historically and actually have the answers. Most of us just found them out too late, and by then were kind of dealing with an abused child mentality.
God Bless you Both!
So like it seems Fr.’s biggest contention of issues between Orthodoxy and Catholicism comes down to the finer points of St. Augustine’s theology-having seen many misreadings of Augustine from Protestants and Orthodox Christians (who each see him as a touch-off point in good and bad directions respectively), it might have been nice to explore his theology a bit more in this episode, given that the tone felt very aggressive at time’s toward his knowledge of Greek and Scripture.
I hope there’s not a test on this
I hope you touch on the argument that the Palamist distinction between God's Essence and God's Energies is somehow absolutely necessarily incompatible with divine simplicity (as simplicity is taught definitively by the Catholic Church).
This has been a recent meme with many Orthodox.
Clay McDermott While the western Church recognizes the distinction between essence and existence, that particular distinction isn’t as front-line as the essence/energy thing is with the easterners. That language around “energies” hasn’t caught on, almost at all, in the West, so it’s rare to find a Latin Catholic who knows what you’d even be talking about. The idea with simplicity though is that there is no distinction between (what we call) God’s attributes. “Simplicity” means “not composite”, not multiple parts held together by some outside power, like how an Arnold Palmer is a composite of Lemonade and Iced Tea, held together by water and the intention of the drink mixer. What we refer to as God’s attributes, His essence and His existence, His Knowledge and His power, etc, all of these “attributes” are simply the finite perspective on the infinite. In God they are all one, but we give them different names because we experience them as different within ourselves. So, if the East is trying to say that “essence” and “energy” are different things which compose God’s nature, then that would violate simplicity, as God would then need an “outside cause” to account for the unity of these two component parts, meaning God would not be God (by the classical understanding).
@@ArchetypeGotoh I think that there may be more room for agreement in the early Palamist tradition and the Thomistic tradition. There's a paper or two I read on the subject that I think she'd some light and I can link them when I find them.
@@ArchetypeGotoh but as you've articulated them, and it is a common view of each, they do sound incompatible
WOW, guys. Father, your holy story was true love you to Christ God! Matt, great rap session, huh?
Thank you for this.
You caught me too early. We're starting over for rights (Righteousness ) sake, & need to share a piece...
...Of the ones who have lost possessions from Government consfication, I ask your attention because I need help. Praised be Jesus Christ our Lord & Redeemer. Yeh, we take slim space & the odds are, (for example), each of us may find a handsome white Catholic young adult gladly to teach us the Faith of our "Fathers, living still"!
Fascinating talk!! As a Roman Catholic, this makes me want us to be truly humble and pray the Orthodox Church rejoins us with the help of the Holy Spirit. What an army against the Devil!!!
melly22577 My hope and prayer is, that all Christians will be United again. The 40,000+ denominations is getting ridiculous! Yes, I am Anglican, because that’s the tradition I’m more familiar with.....
Seems like a great priest but I find it very difficult to believe that God would allow the Pope to put an error in the creed that is said at every mass for over a thousand years
ruclips.net/video/8VuWCCJXF4c/видео.html
This is such a painful wait. 🥺🥺
Good video!
I tend to see seeds of goodness in things as well, I identify myself much as the Father Michael say he is.
The rosary was given to St Dominic by Our Lady. No man invented it, it was a literal gift from heaven.
It is historically based on the recitation of the Psalms, which, for the laity, become an easier version, namely 3 times 50 Ave = 150 Hail Mary.
@@piafounetMarcoPesenti I heard of that. But it still doesn't explain how we jump from praying a 150 psalms to then meditating on the life of Jesus through the eyes of Mary. There was direct divine inspiration into getting the rosary as we know it.
@@miguelitoantonio1950 It is explainable by the fact that the Ave was well known, and people couldn't read a Bible they couldn't afford anyway. Therefore, for the laity, which intellectual level was lower than the clergy, the Rosary was a good idea. Now the inspiration is one thing, but saying that the Rosary as a sacramental and prayer object was given directly by our Lady is in doubt.
I grew up Roman Catholic in Kenya and had absolutely no idea that there were so many different ones. I'm no longer Catholic but when I moved to the US I went to whichever Catholic church was near me. This is so confusing. After the St. Jude's relic tour, I'm rediscovering my love for the church but I'm now very confused. Never been to an Orthodox church but I atrended Presbyterian church every Sundy in high school since that was the only option in boarding school. I served in an Anglican campus ministry at university while going to my Roman Catholic church. Now I go to an Anglican church I love and sometimes a non- deniminational one. I experience God in each one I go to.
Amazing. I am Coptic Orthodox and we’ve had our own issues since 451 AD at Chalcedon, but a question / comment. I have heard the argument (and think it’s convincing) that if the primacy of Rome can be agreed to at a Council, it can also be changed by a Council. I am also a lawyer and this generally makes sense. SCOTUS can override prior SCOTUS decisions, if you will. Thoughts? 1:14:04
Love the video cast. Keep up the good work. OLO is an amazing human :)
I love this!
Towards the end he said something that is wrong. I am not aware that in Byzantine practice people don't go to parish priests to confess, but to ordained monks. I mean that is practiced, but I would not say that that is the overwhelming norm. Not to mention a rule.
My favorite CSYSK priest!
In regard to the discussion about 1h16m in, Matt is correct: you cannot fulfill your Sunday obligation at an Orthodox liturgy. This is actually a change; between 1967 and 1993, according to the Vatican-issued Directory for implementing norms of ecumenism, you COULD do so, but they got rid of this concession in '93. The original Directory's para. 47 used to read: "A Catholic who occasionally, for reasons set out below attends the Holy Liturgy (Mass) on a Sunday or holy day of obligation in an Orthodox Church is not then bound to assist at Mass in a Catholic Church. It is likewise a good thing if on such days Catholics, who for just reasons cannot go to Mass in their own Church, attend the Holy Liturgy of their separated Oriental brethren, if this is possible." This has been removed from the new (current) directory. I wonder why, but I strongly suspect it's because so many Catholics would liberally make use of this provision if they could to avoid insufferably sloppy Roman liturgies.
Awesome
Pro-life is support for natural birth to natural death - if contraception is against God’s will; wouldn’t cancer therapy or artificial life support be interfering with natural death?
Could someone please clarify for me whether the Filioque is a dogma. I was under the impression that it was as defined by a few of the councils in the Middle Ages. Assuming it is, I don’t see how it could be debated within the church; it seems that the interpretation of it could be debated, but not the Filioque itself.
We profess faithfully and devotedly that the holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle; not by two spirations, but by one single spiration. This the holy Roman church, mother and mistress of all the faithful, has till now professed, preached and taught; this she firmly holds, preaches, professes and teaches; this is the unchangeable and true belief of the orthodox fathers and doctors, Latin and Greek alike. But because some, on account of ignorance of the said indisputable truth, have fallen into various errors, we, wishing to close the way to such errors, with the approval of the sacred council, condemn and reprove all who presume to deny that the holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, or rashly to assert that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from two principles and not as from one."-Second Council of Lyon 1274
St JP II already apologised on behalf of the Catholic Church to the Orthodox for the sacking of Constantinople and the 4th Crusade. What more do they want?
I would be interested to learn more about the nuns giving "blessings" on the monastery grounds. That still just doesn't seem right on the surface...
She has the same authority as a bishop within the monastery grounds
So interesting
A great engaging interview. On the Filioque: the faithful in the west absolutely will not budge. It’s fine for the east to use the creed without it, but it’s not only the Creed in the West that has this: it permeates all of our Trinitarian theology. Any ecumenism that requests the Latins change their traditional theology is illegitimate. Do we also throw out the Veni Creator Spiritus and the Athanasian Creed? What about all the polyphonic settings of the Creed? When someone says the West should drop Filioque, it’s disrespectful to our tradition; it’s reverse Latinization.
I believe in the filioque, but if the filioque is false then it needs to be dropped. That's because truth is important. Likewise, if the filioque is found to be true, the Eastern Churches should adopt it. Right now we need unity. I don't know if that means the higher-ups debate it out while the whole Church asks, prays, and fasts for the truth to come out, or if that means waiting for a more suitable time to do seek an answer. That's my just my opinion, I'm not as informed on the ins and outs and politics behind the matter, but politics shouldn't get in the way of truth imo.
@@shlamallama6433 Best said
The Catholic Church should drop the filioque, I've heard the argument that it's not theologically illegitimate to us Orthodox, because Latin 'procedere' is not equal to the Greek 'ekporeusis', so the Holy Spirit does not originate FROM the Son, but THROUGH the Son, and that is why the Catholic Church would find it heretical to add 'kai tou Yiou' in the Greek creed.
The filioque was added by a local council to combat heresy in Spain, and I'm told the Franks later received the creed with the filioque, and accused the Greeks of removing it. The pope debunked this claim, and the Libri Carolini, and the Vatican refused to use the filioque until 1014. It's not Latin tradition to use it, it's Frankish, and later HRE's, willingness to usurp the temporal power of Constantinople by accusing them of heresy.
TheZestanor // The Athanasian Creed did not originally have the Filioque. The writings that say otherwise made a mistake of fact immaterial to and not a part of Divine Revelation, which Popes are not preserved from. All leading Catholic scholars to my knowledge recognize this today. The Veni Creator Spiritus is fine and is safe within the bounds of orthodoxy. We don’t want the Latins to trade away their district theology to become Byzantine. But there are errors that many Latins believe based upon the way that people believe the Creed. Many believe that there are two Processions, one from the Father and one from the Son, which conflicts with the Florentine Canons. This is because of the current Roman use of the Creed.
We don’t want the West to drop its authentic understanding of the Filioque that is compatible with the Ancient Deposit from the Apostles. But we want it to take steps to make sure that the heresy of two processions of the Holy Spirit that conflicts with the Canons of the Council of Florence is rooted out.
We want the West to preserve its theology. But taking out the Filioque or changing the word for procession in the Latin and taking out the Filioque of the main Creed said at Mass is a non-negotiable step in reunification with our Orthodox brothers and sisters who are not in our Communion yet. Once it is removed, even though the theology remains, many will be willing to reunite.
Removing the Filioque is more likely to correct current errors held by the common Latin layperson than create new errors. If they want to be a scholar, they can learn about the Florentine definition and the way whereby it is properly understood that there is a procession from the Father through the Son (and maybe the Roman usage of the Creed can eventually be made to reflect that, with the approval of the Orthodox Bishops... not that the Pope needs that approval dogmatically, but that he being the greatest servant would obtain it, and then they would be left without excuse for regarding as heretical the presence of the addition of “via Filio” or some such other addition after the Filioque is removed.
Alexander Duvall when in sacred scripture, we see and read the words of our Lord Jesus Christ himself saying that when he leaves, He will go and send us the Helper or the Paraclete - Holy Spirit. I don’t see anything wrong in the understanding of the Filioque, because the Holy Spirit does proceed from both the Father and the Son. I just think the Orthodox are bending over backwards to try to imply that the Latin Catholic Church has a heretical understanding of the Filioque.
It was a very helpful stream. Father was a lovely man. But the fact that the Roman church is in communion with eastern churches which have different saints, different discipline and different theology is one of the reasons why I’m not a catholic. It feels very odd. Thanks Matt.
So long as they accept the pope, such things are papered over. The institution of the papacy is more important than the theology. That’s why I’m Eastern Orthodox, they take theology more seriously
monolith94 I think that is a bit simplistic but fundamentally correct. There are significant challenges fir the Orthodox as well though. ‘What does Orthodoxy teach about contraception?’ ‘Ask your priest.’ It seems odd that God would leave his church without a means to speak authoritatively about serious (and relatively modern) moral issues. I may be missing something...
tom ward these different Catholic churches recognize the other saints, and many have personal devotions to saints that aren’t generally on their own calendar. Though, the calendars are many times different. I’m Byzantine myself, and me and one of my Roman friends are always humorously caught off guard when our saints sync up.
@@monolith94 all Catholics take their faith seriously. Part of the doctrine of the Catholic faith is the acknowledgement of the authority of the chair of Peter. Even the Greek Orthodox acknowledge the greater chair of Peter today.
those covenant eyes haunt me every video
Download it, mate. Stop spankin' the salami without your boys knowing.
As Orthodox, the only unity we'll accept is a complete repentance and denouncement of the papacy and all of it's heresies back to the one true church. It's really that simple. We don't want unity with Rome under any other conditions.
hey brothers and sisters in Christ :D im currently waiting to get confirmed at the coming easter vigil and I haven't exactly been struggling but I really feel the need to meet more catholic young people like myself. The problem is that I dont realy know any who are practicing and I've tried online apps to find new friends but cant. Are there any facebook pages you guys know of to help me out or something?
Have you tried searching for ' catholics'? And spread that location to how far you can feasibly travel. You could also ask your priest or bishop or even call the diocese and ask for organisations and groups. If you're at university/college, have a look for religious groups, you may find Catholics in Protestant Bible studies. Best of luck, message me on FB if you want to talk more :)
It doesn’t matter if you like the Mass or not. It’s about God, not about you.
You can fulfill your Sunday obligation at an Orthodox Church if you have no other option, or even if it’s very impractical, in which case you can acquire a special dispensation from your Bishop to attend an Orthodox Church. You could also receive the Eucharist there as long as you didn’t tell them you were Catholic, because it is the Orthodox who do not allow Catholics to receive communion in their churches; the Catholic Church does allow Orthodox to receive in their churches and there is no rule against receiving at an Orthodox Church.
As for being tempted to leave the Catholic Church, that is a personal issue that requires a personal judgement. It is not inherently wrong or against any Catholic Magisterial teaching to engage in all kinds of physical intimacy and closeness before marriage that does not constitute a sexual act, but certainly might tempt to one to go further and enter into an expression of union that is reserved for marriage. Some couples might be able to engage in this licit expressions of intimacy and control themselves, some might find the temptation too strong and thus choose to abstain not because it is a moral obligation or because the acts are wrong, but because they know their own weaknesses and are responsible.
The same judgement has to be made if you are in a situation where you might be compelled to attend an Orthodox Church. Are you loyal and faithful enough to the Catholic Church to remain rooted, or will you be pulled away?
I'm surprised that Fr. Michael makes the case that the Filioque needs to be removed (go to 28:09). I know that Eastern Rite Catholics take issue with the the Filioque, but I've never heard a priest imply that the previous pope would agree with them on this topic.
Wonderful conversation. Actually, Filioque was agreed not to be added to the Greek Creeds right at the beginning of the re-union - at the Council of Florence. The greeks were ok with the latin meaning of the word Procedere and be included in the Creed and the Latins on their part well understood that in Greek “proceeds”, i.e. “eternal source” of the Holy Spirit can only be attribute to the Father.
So the bottom line is (and this is where I disagree with the wonderful father): when you say the Creed in Latin (which after Vatican II not many Roman-rite (and other latin rites) catholics do) you’re perfectly orthodox to say it with Filioque, when you say it in Greek you are more orthodox to say it without, which obviously in English and other languages this difference is completely lost.
The other thing is that Filioque was NOT an issue until Patriarch Photius of Constantinople seeked to break away from Rome in the 9th century and used Filioque as an excuse. Filioque was used in some local creeds in the West (especially in areas with massive heresies) from way back in the 3d and 4th centuries and NO ONE in the East for over 400 years EVER objected it until patriarch Photius “the Layman” as people nicknamed him came along.
Photius listed Filioque among other “accusations” of the the “devilish” Latins: shaving beards, use of leavened bread at the Consecration, eating beaver tails and fasting on Saturdays. Kind of tells you of the level of understanding of basic theology and matters of church discipline of this layman. By the way he was called layman because he was rushed through all priestly stages of consecration from deacon to patriarch in a matter of several days. Wasn’t even a priest. Majority of Patriarchs of Constantinople before him were not much better with few exceptions like the wonderful St. John Chrisostom.
And of course after Photius the one that finally broke away from Rome in the 11th century was Patriarch Cerularius. And here’s the really curious thing. This sweet follower of Christ did not even include Filioque in his list of accusations of the “dirty latin dogs”. I guess by then the matter was well settled by all apart from all kinds of schismatics and he did care not to look stupid, although by then there was so much hatred for latins stirred up and cultivated in this new capital of the Empire among its people since Photius days that it did not matter.
And yet many orthodox, would say the fundamental dogmatic dispute of the schism is the filioque.
Patrick Rooney From my own experience and conversations with the orthodox they are a lot more interested in what their churches say about their current understanding of what the schism is about, as this “understanding” developed over many centuries, than the real reasons of the schism as it happened back in 9-11 centuries. To put it simply centuries of schism allowed them to come up with a lot more... shall we use the polite word.... excuses.
This is the best video I've seen. I have started going to Byzantine Rite when I can since Advent. The liturgy is beautiful. Not just the singing but what is sung. I was hooked at the first mass. This Priest is very good. We need more open, honest conversation about celibacy. What I have come to find is the idea of celibacy being sold to us is idealized. We need to get back to brutal honesty because the focus has been placed too much on sex and not enough on fatherhood.
did we really leave out the political reasons? palace intrigue in Constantinople, treachery, the throne, money owed?
Matt, so is NFP supposed to be used as contraception? I was under the impression that using any contraception INCLUDING nfp was sinful and have heard other priests, including the other Catholic stuff Fathers, allude to the fact that using NFP as contraception is heresy. Any clarification on that Matt? Love the work you're doing Matt, and shout out to Olo for all he does!
I've been to many Masses where when I leave I just say to myself "well that fulfills my obligation". Sad sad.
This show is so good and this one in particular addresses many important pressing issues.. Thank you so much.. But I'm finding one thing so distracting, that they have been sipping from the mug over the last 3 hrs without breaks in between where it could probably be refilled.. Is there anything even in it? 🙈 I'm sorry, but it may be my OCD and I lose focus..
The debate surrounding the Filioque seems too difficult to be worthwhile. Almost very question directed to the good Father began with something like “there are subtle semantic points,” and so if even an advocate for the view cannot make it seem simple, then it seems many will be/become heretics simply because the idea is too difficult for people to say. And i think Matt made a good point with the “you think we’re wrong but the two opinions are compatible” which didn’t seem to be answered. The only “error” called out in that section was “the orthodox looking for trouble” by calling the Church “too hierarchical” because Rome still appoints Bishops. With respect, weak sauce. And that’s without even a reference to iconoclasm and other heretical influences coming out of the Orthodoxy’s centuries-long oppression by Mohommadanism...
Wow