Even if they didn't require more maintenance and special treatment, they'd still be expensive. The benefit of these spokes is entirely weight; at their price, literally every aspect should be superior to steel spokes. If I had a mechanic and a very high paying job, maybe they would interest me. Not to say I don't want to try them, I just don't want to live with them. Cheers for the video 🥂
Yes!! I have and I love them. I've done zero additional maintenance in 2 years of riding. Even if these spokes weighed the same as steel spokes I am addicted to the ride quality they provide.
You really only tested weight and that can be done without even building the wheel. To test other than weight you would need to look at other options for the steel spoke wheel that result in different riding characteristics. My comments are cost aside .. simply ride quality and characteristics. Steel spokes come in many varieties and it’s pointless unless you tested against more flexible spokes and configurations. A comparison against a good bladed spokes for example and straight pull vs j-bend. Similarly it’s pointless just comparing against carbon rims when alloy is more compliant (unless it’s simply a weight comparison). There is also lacing as an option. There are endless combos for riding other than XC or endurance. For example would increasing spoke count and still being lighter ride differently.
@@stephenlord599 The weight was a small part of the test, the main thing here was to test the ride characteristics. This is why I chose identical hubs and rims, so I could test the spokes solely on their merit alone, with as few variables as possible. I found the Berd spokes are more compliant, but flexier laterally. Yes, it would have been nice to have tested straight pull vs j-bend and a different spoke and spoke count combo to the Sapim Race and 28h ones used in the "normal" spoke version, but the time and resource to do so wouldn't be practical. Aluminium rims may have been even more compliant, but again, this is just a test of the spokes, not different rims. The resulting performance of the spokes would be the same regardless of rim type most likely. In an ideal world, I'd have unlimited time and resource to try different rims, spokes, spoke counts, j-bend/straight pull etc, but this seemed the fairest comparison I could make with what I had at my disposal. Totally appreciate your point and thanks for watching and commenting! Cheers and happy riding! Tom
The steel wheel set had an unfair advantage having red hubs, everyone knows red is the fastest colour and so the gap would have been greater if both sets had blue hubs, fact.
True story - My great grandfather showed up to pick up my great grandmother on their first date on a horsebuggy with red wheels. Her dad (with a shotgun) said they couldn't date and to get out of his sight. Back then, that was like driving a Firebird with the giant phoenix painted on the hood. lol. But I guess it worked and she loved it, cuz here I am. ;)
I have them on my hardtail. They are excellent in making the ride more forgiving and makes my steel honzo esd accelerate like my aluminum big al. There is one very very flaw that bothers me is that it robs you of energy at the pump track compared to my regular wheel set. It is definitely noticable only at the pump track but i ride the pump track a lot. Other than that, they are brilliant wheels. I also did manage to break a rear spoke. Probably from landing sideways but berd sent my local wheel builder a few extra spokes for free to replace any other questionable spokes. Only the broken one was bad. It tore at the hub at where they were knotted. With the hookless style hubs, i doubt there will ever be a problem.
Interesting on your thoughts RE: pump track use, I can't say I ever noticed a difference when pumping on the trail, perhaps I'll give the local pump track a few laps to see, but I didn't feel like I was losing out compared to regular wheels on the trail and pump track is a very specific use case!
@@bikeradar You don't notice the loss of pumping energy on the trail. It's specifically at the pump track because you can gauge the speed of the bike based on how fast it finishes the lap or how much effort you have to put into complete a lap versus just the regular wheel.
I got a new wheelset with Berd spokes and onyx hubs. Berd says to get them tentioned after a couple rides because they will loosen up initially which is what I did. They should last a long time after that without needing tensioning again and so far that is true for me.
Yeah, my bad! The original brakes on my Spur failed days before filming, so I just grabbed whatever was going spare in the office and didn't have time to cut them down!
I've got three sets of wheels with Berd spokes built by Berd. The spokes have never needed re-tensioned. I suspect that Nobel didn't pre-stress the spokes correctly/enough when they built your wheels resulting in the re-tensioning you experienced.
I bet they sent them out fast after making them so he could have them for testing. If I was Berd, I'd make wheels and let them sit for a while before selling them. But that's hard to do with custom orders.
@@bikeradar I believe if Berd build them they shouldn’t need to be retentioned because they use a machine that pulls it all very tight when they build them. Anyone else would need to retention them after a few rides after having them built
Great video. I have two sets of wheels with Berd spokes and love the ride. I use these on my gravel bike. I"m building a set of wheels for a touring bike and decided on steel spokes because of the cost difference. Am I making the right decision? Time will tell.
The inertia moment of the Berd spokes penalizes more than a DT competition, and the Young's modulus is worse than any other steel spoke. Does anyone think about these things? A low weight doesn't always mean better performance.
The weight is one thing, but it is minor in the scheme of these wheels. The main difference I felt was the extra compliance and comfort from the Berd spokes. The weight is secondary to this I'd say.
Spinergy Spox road wheels... had the nipple in the hub flange... and would eat the spox after about 500 miles... had them replaced way too many times and eventually they ended in the trash bin. Hopefully these work better and are more durable.
They seem super durable so far, I've got not reliability concerns to report after nearly 3 months of testing, other than needing to re-tension the spokes, but that' easy to do
We haven't tried that yet, but it is something I'm keen to try! One of each at either end, might be the ticket. The wheels are also only 28h, so I'd be tempted to try a higher 32 spoke count to see how that affects the ride quality
@bikeradar My current build plan for my two bikes was Berd & 3 Zero Moto out front / steel & weareone Union enduro out back, both 32H. One set of Motos, One set of union enduros. This review makes me feel ok about it. I just hope the 3-0-moto Berd combo isn't too much of a good thing (flexy).
Didn't really notice any increase in pedal kickback, they are very subtle in their ride feel. They are definitely softer feeling, Pull the back brake, press on the pedals and you can see the "give" in the sprags. Best way I can describe it is similar to your frame flexing when you push sideways on the pedal. It's not bad, just different!
I remember the Mavic R-Sys carbon tube spokes, but those were like wagon wheels. Did they have some string as well? This makes me wonder why the Tioga string discs ridden by Tomac never took off though...
UHWMPE products under the brand name Dyneema are currently being recycled by Clariter. That said I didn't think there's enough demand from these spokes for any end user waste to be recycled at this point. Also consider that in terms of both volume and mass a failed carbon rim produces a lot more waste than the spokes.
@@ryberglund yeah I was thinking that it’s another bike material, like Carbon Fibre, that’s very difficult and not really cost effective to recycle, so will probably end up on landfill surviving for 1000’s of years to come
So the weight saving is 164 grams. Rider rides a few extra miles and loses 454 grams, reducing the total bike/rider system weight. Rotational mass does not matter.
I think they'd have less of an advantage on e-bike. The weight would be less of a concern for me on an eMTB, and with the added weight of the whole bike/rider system, you may have to re-tension them more frequently. That being said, I do think if you can afford them, they do bring ride quality advantages in many areas, it's just a case of weighing up whether those areas are suited to your riding. Lightweight rider on a trail/XC bike? Go for it. Heavier rider on an eMTB riding enduro/DH style trails? Probably not worth it.
Forgive the guy who slept through most of high school science, but if a flexible object is tightened to the same torque, then it's stiffness out to be the same, like my guitar. The way it would be 200% more compliant would say that the load would have to be significantly less (like tuning the E string to drop D). String tension in guitars is all I understand (barely), I'm just confused how material matters outside of weight, torsional yield, and abrasion
They are pricey, but as pointed out, they've been expensive for a while! And to be fair, as shown in the video, they aren't that badly priced compared to the competition
Having a poop will lose you 100 to 200 grams on average. Buying these spokes will lose you an extra 500 pounds. I know where I would rather lose the weight.
This always kills me when people try to negate any weight savings by saying things like, “Just go take a dump instead”. Shaving actual weight on a bike and shedding personal weight in some way are not mutually exclusive. If I take weight off of my bike, I know it’s always gone and weigh the same the next time I ride it. Any personal weight savings whether it’s reducing the weight of your riding kit or taking a poop is addition to any static weight drop
Would you choose a lighter, but flexier, more compliant wheelset or a heavier, stiffer, more harsh feeling pair of hoops?
Even if they didn't require more maintenance and special treatment, they'd still be expensive. The benefit of these spokes is entirely weight; at their price, literally every aspect should be superior to steel spokes. If I had a mechanic and a very high paying job, maybe they would interest me. Not to say I don't want to try them, I just don't want to live with them. Cheers for the video 🥂
Yes!! I have and I love them. I've done zero additional maintenance in 2 years of riding. Even if these spokes weighed the same as steel spokes I am addicted to the ride quality they provide.
I have over 3k miles on my berd HAWK27 wheelset without a single issue. Retensioned them a few months in and haven't had to go back since
You really only tested weight and that can be done without even building the wheel.
To test other than weight you would need to look at other options for the steel spoke wheel that result in different riding characteristics.
My comments are cost aside .. simply ride quality and characteristics.
Steel spokes come in many varieties and it’s pointless unless you tested against more flexible spokes and configurations.
A comparison against a good bladed spokes for example and straight pull vs j-bend.
Similarly it’s pointless just comparing against carbon rims when alloy is more compliant (unless it’s simply a weight comparison). There is also lacing as an option.
There are endless combos for riding other than XC or endurance. For example would increasing spoke count and still being lighter ride differently.
@@stephenlord599 The weight was a small part of the test, the main thing here was to test the ride characteristics.
This is why I chose identical hubs and rims, so I could test the spokes solely on their merit alone, with as few variables as possible.
I found the Berd spokes are more compliant, but flexier laterally.
Yes, it would have been nice to have tested straight pull vs j-bend and a different spoke and spoke count combo to the Sapim Race and 28h ones used in the "normal" spoke version, but the time and resource to do so wouldn't be practical.
Aluminium rims may have been even more compliant, but again, this is just a test of the spokes, not different rims. The resulting performance of the spokes would be the same regardless of rim type most likely.
In an ideal world, I'd have unlimited time and resource to try different rims, spokes, spoke counts, j-bend/straight pull etc, but this seemed the fairest comparison I could make with what I had at my disposal.
Totally appreciate your point and thanks for watching and commenting!
Cheers and happy riding!
Tom
The steel wheel set had an unfair advantage having red hubs, everyone knows red is the fastest colour and so the gap would have been greater if both sets had blue hubs, fact.
Now imagine if the spokes would have been red too! You would become unbeatable
Completely valid points, please forget everything said in this video! Not quite sure how I overlooked such a simple thing!
@@bikeradar sorry 😁
True story - My great grandfather showed up to pick up my great grandmother on their first date on a horsebuggy with red wheels. Her dad (with a shotgun) said they couldn't date and to get out of his sight. Back then, that was like driving a Firebird with the giant phoenix painted on the hood. lol. But I guess it worked and she loved it, cuz here I am. ;)
“Everyone knows red is the fastest” LOL 😆
I have them on my hardtail. They are excellent in making the ride more forgiving and makes my steel honzo esd accelerate like my aluminum big al. There is one very very flaw that bothers me is that it robs you of energy at the pump track compared to my regular wheel set. It is definitely noticable only at the pump track but i ride the pump track a lot. Other than that, they are brilliant wheels. I also did manage to break a rear spoke. Probably from landing sideways but berd sent my local wheel builder a few extra spokes for free to replace any other questionable spokes. Only the broken one was bad. It tore at the hub at where they were knotted. With the hookless style hubs, i doubt there will ever be a problem.
Interesting on your thoughts RE: pump track use, I can't say I ever noticed a difference when pumping on the trail, perhaps I'll give the local pump track a few laps to see, but I didn't feel like I was losing out compared to regular wheels on the trail and pump track is a very specific use case!
@@bikeradar You don't notice the loss of pumping energy on the trail. It's specifically at the pump track because you can gauge the speed of the bike based on how fast it finishes the lap or how much effort you have to put into complete a lap versus just the regular wheel.
It's amazing the strides that have been made in making bicycles more expensive.
The skies the limit for these Berds...
Tom has been banned from shockingly bad puns you'll be pleased to hear
Really guys more ridiculous ways to waste your money unless you’re world class racing
I got a new wheelset with Berd spokes and onyx hubs. Berd says to get them tentioned after a couple rides because they will loosen up initially which is what I did. They should last a long time after that without needing tensioning again and so far that is true for me.
Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no."
Are you deputy editor Jack Luke's burner account? 😂
Unless, it is yes for some people 😉
"Gamechanger or Flop?"
"No."
Uuh, ok.
that ending bit with the lenscap still on 🤣
Tom's lack of photography skills are next level 😂
11:25... 🧐
those hoses are dangerously long!
Yeah, my bad! The original brakes on my Spur failed days before filming, so I just grabbed whatever was going spare in the office and didn't have time to cut them down!
500$ for shoelaces, seems like a bargain!
Probably cheaper than replacement BOA cables 😂
(Obviously a joke 😉)
Or you buy simply carbon Elitewheels pro 36 for 550€ @1500grams and be happy.
Those are amazing on my Bikes
I've got three sets of wheels with Berd spokes built by Berd. The spokes have never needed re-tensioned. I suspect that Nobel didn't pre-stress the spokes correctly/enough when they built your wheels resulting in the re-tensioning you experienced.
My hawk27s needed some retensioning but not to a horrible amount. Since that retension they have gone 2.5k miles without needing more
Could be the case, I've seen conflicting stories about the need re-tension, so just seems hit and miss.
I bet they sent them out fast after making them so he could have them for testing. If I was Berd, I'd make wheels and let them sit for a while before selling them. But that's hard to do with custom orders.
@@bikeradar
I believe if Berd build them they shouldn’t need to be retentioned because they use a machine that pulls it all very tight when they build them. Anyone else would need to retention them after a few rides after having them built
Great video. I have two sets of wheels with Berd spokes and love the ride. I use these on my gravel bike. I"m building a set of wheels for a touring bike and decided on steel spokes because of the cost difference. Am I making the right decision? Time will tell.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed the video!
Ultra-high molecular weight polyethylene (UHMWPE) is a synthetic thermoplastic.
The inertia moment of the Berd spokes penalizes more than a DT competition, and the Young's modulus is worse than any other steel spoke. Does anyone think about these things? A low weight doesn't always mean better performance.
The weight is one thing, but it is minor in the scheme of these wheels.
The main difference I felt was the extra compliance and comfort from the Berd spokes. The weight is secondary to this I'd say.
Spinergy Spox road wheels... had the nipple in the hub flange... and would eat the spox after about 500 miles... had them replaced way too many times and eventually they ended in the trash bin. Hopefully these work better and are more durable.
They seem super durable so far, I've got not reliability concerns to report after nearly 3 months of testing, other than needing to re-tension the spokes, but that' easy to do
@bikeradar Your thoughts on Berd out front and steel out back? Traction front, berm slap out back?
We haven't tried that yet, but it is something I'm keen to try! One of each at either end, might be the ticket.
The wheels are also only 28h, so I'd be tempted to try a higher 32 spoke count to see how that affects the ride quality
@bikeradar
My current build plan for my two bikes was Berd & 3 Zero Moto out front / steel & weareone Union enduro out back, both 32H.
One set of Motos, One set of union enduros.
This review makes me feel ok about it. I just hope the 3-0-moto Berd combo isn't too much of a good thing (flexy).
@@sham8723 Yeah that front wheel may be a bit much on the flex side! But for sure it will be interesting to see how they feel!
How is the pedal kickback on the hubs?
Didn't really notice any increase in pedal kickback, they are very subtle in their ride feel.
They are definitely softer feeling, Pull the back brake, press on the pedals and you can see the "give" in the sprags. Best way I can describe it is similar to your frame flexing when you push sideways on the pedal.
It's not bad, just different!
This must have a bigger impact on a hardtail, no?
Absolutely would, though sadly I didn't have chance to try them out on a hardtail. Hopefully, longer term, I get chance to
Fabric Spokes? Mavic tried this once with the Pro Peloton, and almost killed a ton of people!
Mavic have had their fair share of innovations over the years, don't forget they did electronic shifting with their Zap and Mektronic groupsets!
I remember the Mavic R-Sys carbon tube spokes, but those were like wagon wheels. Did they have some string as well? This makes me wonder why the Tioga string discs ridden by Tomac never took off though...
I’m guessing you can’t recycle these nylon spokes easily. They’ll probably outlive you and never decompose. Sustainability should be a factor
UHWMPE products under the brand name Dyneema are currently being recycled by Clariter. That said I didn't think there's enough demand from these spokes for any end user waste to be recycled at this point. Also consider that in terms of both volume and mass a failed carbon rim produces a lot more waste than the spokes.
@@ryberglund yeah I was thinking that it’s another bike material, like Carbon Fibre, that’s very difficult and not really cost effective to recycle, so will probably end up on landfill surviving for 1000’s of years to come
Not something I'd thought of, but as pointed out, the carbon rims would be a bigger issue from an ecological point of view
surprisingly 164 grams ? Come on ....
It might be cheaper to hire a sherpa to carry you up and down the mountain
So the weight saving is 164 grams. Rider rides a few extra miles and loses 454 grams, reducing the total bike/rider system weight.
Rotational mass does not matter.
Tom actually lost 1kg since the video was filmed, so he's doing his bit for the overall weight saving 😉
No …
Would you waste your money and put your shoe strings on an ebike?
I think they'd have less of an advantage on e-bike. The weight would be less of a concern for me on an eMTB, and with the added weight of the whole bike/rider system, you may have to re-tension them more frequently.
That being said, I do think if you can afford them, they do bring ride quality advantages in many areas, it's just a case of weighing up whether those areas are suited to your riding.
Lightweight rider on a trail/XC bike? Go for it. Heavier rider on an eMTB riding enduro/DH style trails? Probably not worth it.
why not, if youre already paying $16k for a bike and thousands a year for park passes
What park costs that much?
Exactly, if you can afford it, why not!
@@bikeradar bikeradar enjoy your shill money 🤑😘
@@tbrowniscool believe me, I can't afford a £16k bike! And we didn't get for this video anyway 😉
Forgive the guy who slept through most of high school science, but if a flexible object is tightened to the same torque, then it's stiffness out to be the same, like my guitar. The way it would be 200% more compliant would say that the load would have to be significantly less (like tuning the E string to drop D). String tension in guitars is all I understand (barely), I'm just confused how material matters outside of weight, torsional yield, and abrasion
You lost me when trying to justify this amount of money for wheels…
Race wheels have been $2K+ for twenty years now. There are always diminishing returns at the high end of any sport.
They are pricey, but as pointed out, they've been expensive for a while! And to be fair, as shown in the video, they aren't that badly priced compared to the competition
Having a poop will lose you 100 to 200 grams on average. Buying these spokes will lose you an extra 500 pounds. I know where I would rather lose the weight.
This always kills me when people try to negate any weight savings by saying things like, “Just go take a dump instead”. Shaving actual weight on a bike and shedding personal weight in some way are not mutually exclusive. If I take weight off of my bike, I know it’s always gone and weigh the same the next time I ride it. Any personal weight savings whether it’s reducing the weight of your riding kit or taking a poop is addition to any static weight drop