i think on that mountain while arthur was dying he realized how he failed his first member and first son, thats why he was speachless after arthur said “i gave you all i had”
@@TriCopfirst: John was Arthurs son. Dutch had to kill the son of Arthur. And the only family in his family Secondly: dutch still had Deals and dreams to come true, thats why micah and dutch cooperated. Not love. 3rd: dutch is destroyed, when he saw his Gang getting killed he lost his shit, when he saw his old gang rioting against micah; he saw (dutch) he was wrong
Nah inflation got so out of hand that the money from blackwater weren't enough to get a trip to Tahiti this is also the same reason why the 10000$ Arthur had in his back pocket weren't enough
In addition to that similarity, both John and Arthur, that is if you go with John at the end of chapter 6, ascend a mountain to have a confrontation with Micah. Arthur was unaware that he would be fighting him until he jumped him like a coward, but nonetheless Arthur gladly fought him at the end of his life on that mountain top. John ascended the winter Grizzlies with intent to end Micah at the end of the Epilogue, and luckily for us as the viewers, we are able to witness John drop him, which was a long time coming.
I think he solely did it for Arthur. You saw the conflict in his eyes as Arthur was dying on the mountain. Dutch realized his mistakes and upon years of reflection, took it upon himself to redeem Arthur and the gang in that small way. The game is called Red Dead Redemption (2) and I don’t think it’s just about Arthur in this case. Dutch goes crazy in the end but this is the only “redemption” he would be able to achieve being the character he is.
Dutch either shot Micah out of guilt/realisation, of how Micah manipulated and alienated him from the rest of the gang - Arthur and John the most. Or it was realising that Michah was done for and time to cut him loose.
Dutch was already there to kill Micha "same as you, I suppose". I think it was just because he was the rat, simple as that. He blamed Micha for the gang falling apart, much like most players do. Also likely to shift the guilt over to Micha for his own failure.
I mean look at RDR1 with the old gang members, everyone has more or less turned crazy, bloodthirsty criminals. Like Rains Fall said to Arthur: "We become more of who we are". Dutch was always a blame-shifting stonecold criminal who used others to suit his needs but he didn't fully shrug of the facade until Chapter 6.
It wouldn't make sense for Micah to say that they got together again and for him to keep the gun down on Micah until he shot the rat. I believe he went to get satisfaction, still doubting whether Micah betrayed him or not, but he finally comes to his senses when John arrives and they have that dialogue.
He is essentially doing exactly the same as John during the Epilogue. He's trying to catch up with old members of the gang and trying to get revenge on whoever caused the fall. He's just unsure of who that actually was, too stubborn to realise he played such a big part. Their stories during the Epilogue kinda parallel eachother. John found some of the "good" members, whilst Dutch found the "bad" ones. @@Justarandom69
yup, I think his massive ego could not bear being fooled and manipulated by Micah so he used Micah to get the gold back and was just waiting for an opportunity to kill him for vengeance. I think this is confirmed by Dutch leaving the money to John thereby washing his hands of Arthur's death. And then notice in rdr1 Dutch is no longer influenced by anyone any more. No more Evelyn miller's no more hoseas or Micahs, Dutch has become ideologically lost in rdr1
One thing that’s just heartbreaking is that alongside Arthur’s line “I gave you all I had.” Molly also said “I gave you all” in a poem. Dutch was morally gutshot twice realizing he let the woman he loved essentially kill herself and he also betrayed a son that for a long time he truly loved.
I loved how Dutch shot Micah and had nothing to say about it. It showed how Dutch who always shows himself to have all the answers to every question had nothing left to offer, he was a broken man. But it also shows him as an enigma who no one really understood, Dutch probably did not even understand himself too well... Unlike Arthur who had incredible amounts of self-reflection throughout the game.
Dutch has no diary to speak of, no journal. The only insight we get in regard to the inner workings of his mind are brief radiant dialogues in the camp, and the perception of his gradual descent through the eye's of Arthur. Dutch was no enigma, but the game is about the gradual destruction of the gang, though Arthur's perspective. We can only speculate upon what Dutch would have thought about in numerous moments and we also need to remember just how much Micah is going out of his way to discolour Dutch's perception of even his right hand man. Just what exactly does Micah say to Dutch, in many moments? Micah's this wheedling suck up constantly trying to ingratiate himself and sow doubt in Dutch's mind about many of the other gang members. We can divulge all that also from many radiant dialogue moments in camp. Note how NO ONE seems to like or even wan't to tolerate Micah? It's because he's always bad mouthing everyone else to Dutch, always criticising always sowing seeds of doubt. Him shooting Micah close to the end of the epilogue is the way Dutch admits if only to himself that Micah is responsible for everything that goes wrong. It all goes south once he's in the gang. But he only shoots Micah once, and not fatally, because he knows John wants vengeance too.
@Requiemslove authur was very emotionally intelligent and humble (especially high honor authur) while Dutch is insecure, paranoid and needs outside validation and followers to feel secure.
I'm on my 4th play through and I've tried to think from Dutch's viewpoint and I have realised just how Arthur was doubting every single thing Dutch said with cold, sarcastic replies. I think Arthur has to take some responsibility for pushing Dutch closer to Micah.
I think he just remembered Micah wasn't in RDR1. All joking aside I feel like people overlook the fact Charles and Sadie are in the final mission and are both characters who aren't in RDR1 so you don't know they're safe and they get shot and stabbed respectively. I really think Rockstar was trying to tease players into worrying that they were all going to die in that mission. But I've never seen another player who even picked up on it.
I mean I see what your saying but honestly I don't agree. Sadie and Charles didn't die. That's why no one picked up on it. Your complaining about people not picking up on something that didn't happen. I jsut don't think this comment adds anything. The Micah joke is funny tho
@@thewolf4325 Sorry I probably didn't explain myself very well. Yes Sadie and Charles do not die. But when you're playing the game for the first time, you don't know that. Then in the final mission, one gets shot and the other is stabbed and at Micah's mercy. I *think* Rockstar wanted you to fear that they weren't going to make it. Seeing as most of the other gang members who weren't in RDR1 all died. Lenny, Sean, Hosea, Susan, Strass etc. Since there's zero tension whatsoever that anything can happen to John or Jack or Abigail. I think Charles and Sadie were supposed to be stakes that you were nervous about. But no one picked up on it because the focus was on John and Micah
@@bigrigjoe5130I honestly believe this comment is right on the mark, when playing the epilogue, even if you haven’t played RDR1 you already know johns not going to die, so it makes the mission less plot driven, having Charles and Sadie get injured gives some real tension to the mission
Here's a thought, Dutch was pretty quiet during the stand-off at one point. I imagine he might be asking himself some questions about how he and Micah were found, probably deducing that Micah must have talked and hearing John bring up Arthur might've reminded him of Arthur telling him that Micah's the rat, thus, what we see. Can't explain the just dipping out though.
@@Co-GlizzyIt’s called a fan theory lol. Get that stick out of your autistic ass and just have fun with it, don’t worry too much about details with fan work😂💀
Think that dutch likely was with micah for a while waiting for a chance to kill him. Micah had a big gang, if he shoots micah he's toast. He still wants to live, but he wanted revenge
Also, Dutch confirms he was going to kill Micah, John asked him What are you doing here? And Dutch said same as you confirming he was going to kill him
I don't think that Dutch ever believed that Micah ratted on the gang (he seems a little sad when he shoots Micah and he shoots a look of utter contempt at John when the latter thanks him). Since Rockstar considers the high honor/help John escape ending canon, I think he sided with John because of what Arthur said about giving Dutch all he had. Dutch realized Arthur truly gave everything for him and was truly like a son to him and that Micah only ever took for himself. Yet Dutch failed to make the right choice and take a side then. I think Dutch shot Micah to make things up to Arthur in a way. To choose a side and to try to make Arthur's final sacrifice for John count. After all, by RDR1, Dutch no longer cares about money.
During the dialogue, John says, what are you doing here Dutch says same as I suppose literally confirming he was going to kill Micah I think it’s both he did it for Arthur, but mostly for himself
I think the good ending Dutch realizes Arthur isn’t the rat .Bad ending Dutch sees Arthur as just as bad as him since Arthur would need to spy to know about the money also since Arthur didn’t help John .
No doubt. The look on his face when hosea gets shot. He was losing it before then but truly broke after that moment. The scene in lagras of Dutch playing chess by himself really illustrated how lost and deranged he had become.
Yeah that has me fucked up, all the risky shit outlaws in the Wild West would get up to, but not smoking near dynamite. Meanwhile in current year at your nearby gas station…
In my opinion I think it was for both Arthur and Sadie. Arthur's death had haunted Dutch for the last eight years and when his name was brought up during their final confrontation of the game, Dutch finally came to his senses for a brief moment and realized he let Micah lead him astray ultimately causing the downfall of the gang. He knew he had already failed Arthur and if anything, he could at least do a couple good things in the end (save Sadie and leave her and John the money). Even on my first playthrough of RDR2 I noticed how Dutch gave John a cross look on his face after John told him "Thank you...I..." to me it seemed Dutch was thinking "I didn't do it for you John I did it for her!"
When I think of Dutch, I think of a man who had a plan for everything except for dealing with the consequences of the unknown that grew bigger and bigger till he started losing it. Micah helped things along, but when Dutch would say "I...WE" when he corrected himself on different accounts, I think that's a small indicator that deep down, he always had his self interest in mind, but he had to correct himself because he remembered oh yeah, I gotta help these people too. Micah knew this, and so he just quietly tried to push Dutch into his line of thinking, especially after somehow getting his ear. I think Micah was trying to prove survival is better than whatever Dutch's fantasy of what his idea of a free world is. So yeah, I think it was a mix of both personally. Even if Micah wasn't there, the Pinkertons still had their eye on the Van der line gang, and Dutch would have just been dealing with more and more pressure trying to pretend everything's fine till he broke. Micah basically just sped things along with his crazy schemes. Him shooting Micah to me said he finally realized Micah was pulling the strings. He tried to ignore it, but then his past caught up to him AGAIN via John because of Micah. Dutch's father was a hero to him, so that's what he wanted to be, but he was too self absorbed to pull it off, and Micah basically just waltzed in and twisted everything he stood for and he let it happen. But again, he knew his true nature was going to be the end of him. He found out he wasn't a hero, which I think is why he just didn't feel anything when he killed the guy and left John out there. Like he said, "You can't fight gravity" or another phrase that suits I think is, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
@KeyUploads I don't agree with people that Dutch went there to kill Micah. When he says, "Same as you, I suppose" I believe he just came to get satisfaction from Micah, whether he really was a rat or not. A "friendly" conversation where he was being manipulated again, or it wouldn't make sense for Micah to say that they had team up once more. When John arrives, Dutch hears John's words and sees Micah mocking Arthur's death, finally coming to his senses.
@@Justarandom69same I would agree that something triggerd him to kill Micah when John was talking or when Dutch realized what happend he was sick of it and wanted to end it
@mommatthew2756 But were there Pinkertons in Micah's gang? Did the Pinkertons show up when Dutch was there? No, they arrived much later, in fact, it's not possible to guarantee that they went there because of Micah. It's more likely that they went to kill Micah, just like Dutch and John, the three of them made a lot of trouble before reaching the top of the mountains and were the "last" outlaws alive. It doesn't even make sense for Dutch to go to Micah, knowing that the Pinkertons could be with him, it doesn't make sense either Micah to warn them about Dutch, unless they had already been talking for even longer. Micah really was a rat in the main chapters, but in the epilogue, the Pinkertons were just doing their job, maybe they wouldn't arrive so late if Micah really still had some connection with them, they probably wanted to catch both him and the others by surprise.
@mommatthew2756 I understand the point of Dutch being somewhat surrounded, but it still doesn't make sense, if he knew that Micah was accompanied by a whole gang. I think he went to Micah with some doubt, maybe even thinking about killing him if he really found out he was the rat, but he wasn't sure. He went to have a conversation to clarify things, but in this he ended up being manipulated again, as Dutch's aim is to live an outlaw lifestyle, Micah fed his ego and dream again, as his phrase already says. "We have money, we have dreams, join us John, join us." Not to mention that he still suspected that John could be the rat too, Arthur's death only made him stop doubting Arthur himself. He says he's doing the same thing as John, because regardless of whether John is going to kill Micah or not, he came to resolve old business and settle accounts with the past, Dutch is also there to do the same, that doesn't mean they will do it the same way. Only with John's words and Micah mocking Arthur's death, in addition to refusing to release Sadie, almost dying, does Dutch wake up to who Micah really was, here he finally gives up his big ego and his fantasies of greatness, saving John and Sadie, leaving the money for them and giving up how much Micah or that Blackwater money could help with his dream.
He realized he has to shoot either John or Micah. He chose Micah out of his love for John. That’s exactly why he abandoned all the money - his plan changed right there and then
I don't think Dutch loved John anymore after being broken out of prison. They were both angry at each other and Dutch even gave John a hardened stare as he walked off without saying a word while John was thanking him for his help
@@dno7567dutch never loving John is completely untrue he definitely lost his trust in John after the robbery of Saint denis and wanted him to cut loose but he always like John that's why u see arthur being somewhat jealous of John being dutch favorite even In rdr 1 John always mentions the good part of dutch Dutch says to John that he never took him as and errand boy
@@dno7567 dutch loved john he just didnt trust john there was way to many moments in dutch eyes where john became suspicious and in the beginning of the game john was doing his best to pull his weight because he knew him leaving affected a lot of people as shown from arthur when he talks about or to john because he doesnt want to be seen as dead weight frm the gang especially dutch him leaving was enough to be seen as unreliable, and in rdr1 dutch says some lines saying how he disappointed with john helping the gov and has multiple chances to kill john but decides not to and run to the top of the mountain "We gotta stop seein eachother like this john"(talking abt rdr2 end)and gives a speech abt to john telling him he coulda found another option and no matter how hard he tries the world just going to see john as another dutch after him which became dutch and john last heart to heart moment before the end of rdr1 leading to johns death
John: "What are you doing here Dutch?" Dutch: "Same as you i suppose" My theory is the normal theory, loose ends with micah. Guilt and a mix of schizophrenia perhaps
I mean what's interesting here is that here he could have shot John as well (which he does if you shoot Micah before he does) but didn't but still had a sour face. Years later he activetly goes after John with total, undisputed intent to kill. My guess is he didn't care for money anymore and spared John & Sadie because of Arthur
I think something that gets glossed over often when referring to how the gang falls apart and the decline in Dutch's mental state is that during the trolley mission gone wrong Dutch hits his head pretty hard which most certainly gave an already mentally erratic Dutch brain damage. Then couple that with the death of Hosea and Micah whispering in his ear, there was no way that he could possibly be able to think clearly during the waning weeks of the gang.
You're right, I forgot about this but back when the game came out that was a plot point people brought up in YT videos when talking about Dutch's mental decline dang u just unlocked a memory 😅
@@Cheez_Doodlezz i actually dont think it was planned it felt spur of the moment. If it was planned Dutch would have walked off with the blackwater money
@theoutsiderjess4869 Bad writing, and the millionth example of John Marston having absolutely zero agency in this game. Besides the fact everybody in general can't lift a finger without Arthur, John especially can't do anything without him, whether it's restoring faith in his wife in her own husband or spending time with his son (or saving said son from being kidnapped) or saving his own life, or hell having his own unique hat 🥴 Sure I absolutely adore Big Daddy Arthur, but they had him eclipse John like some insanely Chad older brother, the older brother who naturally happens to be the star QB on the high school football team and drives a sports car and has a six pack of abs with footlong dong, while John is the pimple faced-2nd string wide receiver-boy who most people are really only nice to because they like Chad.
Both Micah and Dutch were planning to reunite again for two different reasons. 1. Dutch reunited with Micah to kill him when the moment was right. That's why he says to Jhon he was there for the same reasonas he was. 2. Micah planned to give Dutch to the Pinkertons. That is why the Pinkertons were the first people to show up in Micah's camp when the credits are rolling up. It was supposed to be a secret hide out.
10:47 I think the reason why micah shot miss grimshaw here is he saw what she did to molly . While everybody was talking she shot molly which kind of make her unpredictable. Micah realises this and during the standoff he shot her in the first chance he got. Maybe Micah is not so dumb afterall.
I don’t think it’s that deep. She took her eyes off of her opponents during a stand off, and Micah took advantage and killed her. I think it’s just that
Thats a pretty clever line of thought but i don't think micah was thinking that deeply or that many steps ahead he was crazy and never liked any of them anyway. He has no use for ms Grimshaw but her being headstrong was probably seen as a threat to him somewhat but not like that IMO
@@TheHaas123 i wouldn't say the smartest, when you have well-educated men such as Trelawny and the other loan guy w the glasses not to mention hosea n dutchs street smarts. But he definitely was more conniving, and manipulative. Which got the job done for him and if u wanna attribute that to smarts cool, but if no one fell for his BS and never trusted him how smart does he look then? But iget what you're saying.
That last quote of yours, something like "John, Charles, Sadie, they all attribute the downfall to Micah" I think that explains why he shot Micah. Dutch knew since 1899 that everyone hated Micah, that they saw him as the problem and on some level after 8 years of introspection I think he began to see that, but he still liked Micah, got along well with him. Enough to retrieve the money with him after all those years. After seeing John and Sadie, and being reminded of Arthur, I think he thought about how they were his true family, and how they think of Micah. He was brought back to the old gang in that moment, and decided to act on the popular opinion of his old family. He gave Micah what he had coming to him, what the old gang thought he deserved, for the old gang, the family. One last decision for the good of the gang. I think for a moment it brought him back to the head of the Van der Linde gang. It was against his own wishes however, and I think he resented it. Evidenced by the look on his face toward John as he walked away. But he did it for John, for Arthur, Sadie, for everyone who used to call him family, but he didn't enjoy doing it. Remember this quote from RDR1: [ROSS] So in the end, you didn't have the guts to shoot him. (Dutch) [JOHN] When the opportunity presents itself, I'll put a bullet in him. I wont like myself for doing it, but I'll do it. I think in this moment, with John showing up like a ghost from the past and summoning the memory of Arthur with him, I think Dutch made an impulsive decision much like John had to later make toward killing Dutch. He didn't want to shoot Micah, but his family did. And so he did it for them. And then he walked away with a face of pungent disgust, seemingly communicating "There. that what you wanted? I killed the only one who stood by me. Hope you're happy because I'm not."
John doesn't "kill" Dutch in RDR1. Dutch kills Dutch. I also don't believe that Dutch in "any" capacity" was a friend of Micah's. I think it was his intent to play a long game. I don't believe he helped Micah retrieve anything. Consider the line of Micah's where he stipulates that John and Sadie and Charles were not the "only" visitors that day. Dutch showed up to talk with Micah. And in Micah's mind he's thinking "duped him again" but as I said, Dutch is thinking of a LONG game. But then John and Sadie turn up, and Micah's gang are all shot up. Dutch's plan for a long game, which undoubtedly had something to do with him getting a CLEAR answer about Micah's involvement in how things went south, changes in that standoff. Undoubtedly when Micah said that "Arthur's long dead and gone" with zero indication in his voice [Micah's] that such phases him. For Dutch it was as good an answer to his mind, or as good as any answer COULD be that Micah "admitted" that he was the rat. Dutch doesn't even look when he shoots Micah. To my mind he "can't" look or he would have filled Micah with every bullet he had. And he said to John earlier "same reason as you". He WANTS John to get to shoot Micah by the time that Dutch is walking away, the look on his face, to John, is as much self resentment as it is anger [at John] for making Dutch face his demons. [You only get the Dutch shoots John fail state if the player wrongly interprets what the standoff is about, and shoots Micah, but that's more clever scripting disguised as Dutch's urge for self preservation, than anything else. We're SUPPOSED to have the dramatic dialogue, and the switching between Dutch and Micah]
@@Requiemslovethe ending that’s what I did switch the gun to Dutch only to say something than switch right back to micha
8 месяцев назад+174
i always think it was also jealousy of Micah is why Dutch shot him. look at the power dynamics at the beginning of the game. Micha was at the bottom of Dutch's gang hated and laughed at by everyone and only because of the will of Dutch that Micah could ride with them. and slowly through sucking up Micah worked his way to second man replacing Arthur. and as this happen Dutch's gang weakened to the point of collapsing. next thing you know Micah is now in charge of his own gang and it is larger then Dutch's original gang and Dutch now has to play second fiddle to Micah. this must of hurt his ego, Dutch in his mind has to be the king of his castle. this nobody within 6 months destroyed everything Dutch had created replaced his legacy with his own and now Dutch has been forced to be his follower because he has no one else to ride with him. Micah then obviously was hand picking member of his new gang that were only loyal to him not Dutch, Dutch was just a nobody in the eyes of Micah's new gang and he was only allowed to be a member because of the will of Micah. now Dutch is in the weaker position a complete reversal of events. no way this did not hurt Dutch's ego. Dutch was just wating for the perfect moment to put a bullet in him I believe. he hated that this man out smarted him, usurped him and then knowing Micah's personality probably rubbed it in his face every single day, making refences to his failed gang. Micah and his gang probably even had nick names for Dutch that he and his loyal gang members bullied him with everyday. Dutch was probably seen as a joke in Micah's gang. a failed leader while Micah was now the king, the great leader. a complete 180 in power dynamics.
Dutch wasnt in Micahs gang. He showed up not too long before John.
7 месяцев назад+10
@@hustler666100he went with them back to blackwater to pick up the money then Rhode back to the gang's hideout. he most likely spent a few weeks with them plenty of time for Micah to poke him on the events of his former gang.
Dutch shot Micah because he wanted to blame micah for the gang falling apart and he didn't want to admit that he (Dutch) was the real problem. So he shot Micah to get a measure of revenge before finally slipping away into insanity. Dutch probably figured Micah would sell him out to the Pinkertons at some point after getting the blackwater money. He realized he wasn't interested in the money so he silenced Micah to end that loose end.
John did ask Dutch why he was there and he state “same as you I suppose” , and we all know John was there to kill Micah and end his life for what he did years prior , to the gang and Arthur
I think it's as Dutch says in his you can't fight change speech - all he has ever done is fight and can't give up that fight no matter how feudal it is to do so.
*Honestly* I think the money stolen was probably *Micah’s cut* . As *greedy* as Dutch was it’s unlikely he’d walk away with nothing. So he was likely there to take *HIS portion* of the money n split. When John showed up, and started saying Arthur’s name, it resurrected *Guilt* and *Pain* Something Dutch *KNEW* Micah was responsible for
I feel like the ending where he says that Dutch damned them all gets through to Dutch more, especially because Hosea also says that Dutch will damn them all and everything after the Saint Denise robbery basically shows that Hosea was right.
Dutch was crying his eyes out as Arthur died he was avenging Arthur when he shot Micah cus he realized he became the man he told his people not to become
You make it sound like he was bawling. He wasn't. There were a few tears, how could there not be? But he was far from bawling there was far too much going down, for that. Dutch in that moment couldn't believe what he was faced with. He was too shocked, too appalled, too dejected to REALLY cry. The tears we do see, I don't think he was even aware of. He's sad but there's too much other stuff for him to notice it.
Man, I love this game and all of its nuances that make videos like this even possible. Great video, I'm glad it was in my recommendations section. Cheers!
If anything i think John bringing up Arthur was a moment of clarity for Dutch that reminded him Micah was essentially what caused the downfall of the gang since Blackwater.
Whether Dutch intended to avenge Arthur or just wanted revenge on Micah is kind of up for debate but he ultimately dooms John in the end as Micah’s death kicks off the events of RDR1. I personally believe Dutch had a moment of clarity on the mountain and couldn’t bring himself to kill Arthur.
In the epilogue I actually think he thinks he's finally "saving" John and Abigail and Jack. He doesn't know at that point that the "law" would use them [Abigail and Jack] as pawns to get John to go after his "old" gang. Or does he know really how HE would change after the events in RDR2. He goes off the deep end. He becomes a man driven of a need for anarchy, likely hoping deep down that someone would just get a lucky shot off on him. As the finish of the first game approaches, he's literally begging John to just shoot him already. But John, despite everything, despite WHY he's forced into hunting his old gang, can't do it. So Dutch tells John he's "got a plan" and then backs away until gravity will do what no one else seemingly can do. [kill Dutch] He's likely thinking in that moment "my death here can mean something, they should leave John alone, if I'm gone" He is of course wrong, but he can't know that in the moment.
I like that it’s ambiguous. The charismatic and charming Dutch from the early game is gone, whether because he changed or because he showed his true self. I like that the game doesn’t have him give a clear reason for why he does what he does, I bet even *he* doesn’t know.
It's not "that" ambiguous. We get numerous radiant dialogue moments in camp which highlights Dutch's deteriorating mental state. By the end of the epilogue, IMO Dutch has at that point never been more clear in focus. He shoots Micah because he finally comprehends that Arthur was right all along. The Dutch we see in that moment is the Dutch who wrestles with his conscience about the events at the start of the game. [the ones we're not first party privy to] Not the Dutch we see probably in chapter 4 and onwards.
@@Requiemslove you might both be right, that's one of the things I love about this story, how many years later do you think people are going to be disagreeing on things like this about this game? It's a beautiful piece of art that could only exist in a video game.
It's so great that this game is still sparking theories and analyses years after its release which you couldn't really say for a lot of story based games
I believe Dutch shooting Micah was a cop out so John didn’t kill him next because it looks like Dutch been living with Micah up until John finds them and gets revenge on Micah.
Dutch probably became a villain at some point, in the first chapters he really showed that he cared but it seems that after Hosea death or something else, but i think that Arthur's death was a point were he broke, and started questioning what he did until that point, until he meet John and had to choose between His other son and Micah the guy that killed the last spark of humanity in him, one of the first members and the one that tried to save him from himself.
I always thought that Dutch's last word to Arthur is the most important: "I..." As he said in RDR1, Dutch's nature is to be an outlaw, and the Government is fighting his nature, he just can't let go of himself, pure ego. He didn't do all of this to protect the gang, he was trying to protect his way of life and I don't think he really cared about any gang member, I think they were just means to an end, protect himself. And that's when Arthur told him "I gave you all I had", he just answered "I...", he did all of this for himself.
Because john killed all of the micahs men. No gang to take over ("same as you" = shoot micah, and take over the gang). John reminded him of old gang, arthur and ruined this opportunity. So he reconsider, shoots micah and goes. Pretty simple actually.
I mean Dutch does say that he's there for the same reason as John, which just basically spells it out. But ultimately it's problably to cause less issues with the canon, since in RDR1 John hasn't killed any gang member yet.
Not accurate. John kill's Micah. Dutch merely shoots Micah. [Not fatally, he leaves that to John] In the first game, John is blackmailed by the "law" and yes the parenthesis there is meant, to go after the remaining gang members. His wife and child are literally on the chopping block, if he doesn't. [He has NO choice] It's not a task he goes after with any personal gusto.
Entertaining and thoughtful analysis/ thought experiment! You got me wanting to play through the story again. Unrelated to your video's material, you've got a great voice. You don't sound far from a young Hosea! Keep it up, take care of your voice. God bless!
i always thought it was like his way of admitting his downfall, killing Micah and leaving the blackwater money he cared so much about behind. it's like he realized he took a lot of wrong decisions and thought that 1 bullet could redeem him but I doubt it really worked even for himself. He just had his loneliness and guilt left when he walked away
Dutch's decision to favor Micah over Arthur, Hosea, and John in the game is complex and reflects Dutch's deteriorating mental state and changing priorities as the story progresses. 1. **Manipulation by Micah**: Micah Bell is skilled at manipulating Dutch. He plays into Dutch's increasingly paranoid and aggressive tendencies, making Dutch believe that Micah is more aligned with his vision of a violent, anarchic future. Micah capitalizes on Dutch's growing distrust of Arthur and Hosea, portraying them as obstacles to Dutch's leadership. 2. **Conflict within the Gang**: As tensions rise within the Van der Linde gang, Dutch becomes more erratic and less rational. Micah exacerbates this by feeding Dutch's desire for control and power. Arthur and Hosea, on the other hand, represent a more grounded and moral influence, challenging Dutch's descent into chaos. 3. **Dutch's Decline**: Dutch's mental state deteriorates throughout the story due to various factors, including guilt, pressure, and a sense of impending doom. Micah aligns himself with Dutch's darker impulses, while Arthur and Hosea represent reminders of Dutch's past ideals, which he is increasingly abandoning. 4. **Micah's Loyalty (or Deception)**: Dutch perceives Micah as loyal and a true believer in his cause, particularly in contrast to Arthur and Hosea, who start questioning Dutch's decisions. Micah's deception is not apparent to Dutch until later in the story, by which time Dutch's judgment is clouded. Ultimately, Dutch's choice of Micah over Arthur, Hosea, and John reflects his descent into madness and his susceptibility to manipulation. Micah's ability to exploit Dutch's weaknesses and desires plays a significant role in this tragic turn of events. Dutch's decision to shoot Micah in "Red Dead Redemption 2" is a pivotal moment that reflects his eventual realization of Micah's true nature and his own moral reckoning. Several factors contribute to Dutch's choice to turn against Micah: 1. **Betrayal Revealed**: Dutch eventually comes to understand that Micah has been manipulating him and the gang for his own gain. Micah's true allegiance to his own self-interest becomes clear, particularly after Arthur Morgan exposes Micah's treachery and provides evidence of Micah's involvement with the Pinkertons. 2. **Loss of Faith**: Throughout the game, Dutch's faith in Micah is gradually eroded as he witnesses Micah's disregard for the well-being of the gang and his increasing ruthlessness. Dutch, who prides himself on loyalty and camaraderie, realizes that Micah has betrayed these principles. 3. **Arthur's Influence**: Arthur's influence on Dutch cannot be overlooked. Arthur, who once served as Dutch's right-hand man, opens Dutch's eyes to the truth about Micah's deception. Arthur's loyalty and sense of justice ultimately sway Dutch against Micah. 4. **Self-Preservation**: In the end, Dutch's decision to shoot Micah may also be driven by self-preservation. By eliminating Micah, Dutch removes a significant threat to himself and possibly seeks redemption for his own failures in leadership. 5. **Symbolic Act**: Shooting Micah can also be seen as a symbolic act of reclaiming Dutch's moral compass and acknowledging the damage caused by his own choices. It marks a turning point for Dutch, albeit a belated one, where he finally confronts the consequences of his actions. In summary, Dutch's decision to shoot Micah represents a culmination of his character arc, where he confronts the reality of Micah's betrayal and his own role in the downfall of the gang. It is a moment of reckoning and redemption, albeit too late to undo the damage that has been done.
@@Meatball996 yes that is true. Dutch RDR1 is a whole other monster compared to Dutch’s descent in 2. However, we aren’t fully aware of Dutch’s actions prior to the game except Heidi McCourt. I think Dutch used her the same way he used the other girl in rdr1, only shooting her to cause a distraction so he can run off.
@@Meatball996 We can’t fully say or confirm Dutch’s mental state if he was always insane and just hiding it, or he slowly descended into madness. It’s a concept that brings a lot of other open theories out into the fanbase which is another reason I love it so much.
Wonderful video, I just wonder if that bump in Saint Denis assisted in any way in bringing out his true ideals. He had been spiraling since the beginning, but in my vision it was a lot quicker after the loss of Hosea and the trolley incident.
Definitely, I suffer a similar head injury in a wreck. It can completely warp your personality I'm way more likely to react with Hostility towards stimuli than I was before.
I didn't notice it then when I was playing but after watching this I realized how funny it was that both John and Arthur threw away their cigerettes after looking back at a wagon full of tnt lol
finally got this game on ps4 a couple days ago and ive been playing through the game without spoilers but then i just get this video title right in my face on my home page today out of absolutely nowhere. THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE MR CYNIC
I always imagined it due to him knowing he did wrong. Realizing he was being used by another person, maybe with some guilt or what he did to his gang. Revenge was always Dutch’s thing. It makes sense why he’d dwell on it.
I love how these games don’t have simple villain figures. They easily could’ve turned Dutch into someone you despise and hate, especially because of the first game, but they didn’t. Instead he’s a conflicted character that is extremely manipulative but also does care about his crew to some extent. He could’ve turned on Arthur but for once he actually didn’t know what to do or say. He was not written to be a simple character.
I’ve always interpreted Dutch saying “Same as you I suppose” to John as acknowledging they were both seeking closure. Dutch wasn’t there to kill Micah and maybe he was undecided in what he actually wanted to do. Having failed the gang he was no longer a man of planning, he indicate how much he’s change but saying how little he has to say on things anymore. I don’t think even he knew why he was there until John showed up. John’s redemption was his revenge on Micah for the gang and for Arthur. Dutch’s redemption was trying to rectify the mistake he made in the past, except he didn’t know that until the moment presented itself
I think Dutch’s memories and regrets with Arthur played a huge role in deciding to shoot Micah. But I also think it a matter of revenge for his pride too. Dutch was this charismatic, adored man. But he gave in to Micah’s flattery and forked tongue…and it cost him the adoration and influence he once held. Dutch thought himself a king, but Micah made him a fool. And Dutch wasn’t going to let that slide.
Can’t believe how it ended. Arthur gave his all, he tried everything he could to keep the gang together, he also helped Micah escaped from prison. On the other hand, for Dutch, Arthur was always by his side, showing loyalty, then, he realizes that Dutch was changing after he drowns Cornwall’s body and throws it towards the alligator. Little by little, he tells the gang members to leave and start a new life, because he knew Dutch wasn’t the same, he was killing more and more people as he continues to say, stick with me, I have everything planned blinded by money and the dream to move to Tahiti. Also, Hosea’s death affected him and his decisions because there was no longer a second commander.
I think after Dutch saw John and Sadie still believe that Micah was the rat after so many years, he finally realized that Micah really was the rat. Or maybe Dutch believed Arthur when he said Micah was the rat, but for whatever reason, he didn't want to kill Micah until he saw how badly John and Sadie wanted to "avenge" the gang that left them behind after so many years, and maybe that, for lack of a better term, "inspired" Dutch to finally put Micah down.
I think it is just as likely that Dutch shot him to avenge Hosea, or Sean, or Lenny, or even Kieran, as it is that he did it to avenge Arthur. I seriously doubt Dutch had Arthur foremost in his mind at the time. He might have possibly done it for the sake of John, who was standing there present when he shot, but I kinda doubt that too (considering RDR1). John & Arthur abandoned him, and Dutch is not the forgiving type. His game is TiT TiT TiT TiT TiT for tat. My guess is that Dutch's reasoning for shooting Micah involved nobody else besides Dutch. Most probable reason, in my opinion, is that Dutch was nursing a 10-year-old grudge because Micah fooled and manipulated him, causing his gang to disintegrate. Frankly, I can't invent another reason that would enrage Dutch against Micah more than that realization would. It was revenge...again. But it was revenge for Dutch not for Arthur or anyone else, same as always. I think it is more probable that Dutch was thinking about Cornwall, Milton, Bronte, and Colm when he shot than Arthur, Hosea, & John. Dutch was always more focused on and concerned with his enemies than his friends...or himself. He struggles most when there is no clear target to pursue. In fact, that is the fundamental underlying reason why all his friends left him in the end. With no target, he starts aiming at his own friends (most obvious in Guarma & Lakay). Truth says: Dutch abandoned the gang long before the gang abandoned Dutch. Dutch was speechless because despite everything he had tried to shake Arthur loose, the guy remained Dutch's loyal friend to the end...and Dutch, knowing exactly how to deal with foes, simply doesn't understand friendship, eventually living & dying alone without a single one while crusading against his adversaries. Arthur's friendship confounds Dutch throughout the story, John's maybe more so. You see it from the very start. Arthur's last words weren't the first ones to make Dutch stammer and side-step. He was confused. What should I say while watching my friend die when the concept of friendship is beyond my comprehension? To him the gang consisted of followers, supporters, co-workers, brothers, loyalists, parts of a machine called 'the crew', not friends. I don't think he wanted to be friends with any of them. He can't distinguish any difference anyway. After all, he is Dutch, and they are, every one of them, not Dutch. Could have gone to Tahiti...stayed to fight enemies instead. Can't beat nature. Dutch shot Micah because he saw Micah was his enemy. I'm surprised, his enemies don't usually last that long. It's why Dutch is so well adapted to making new ones. He needs an enemy because enemies are what you fight against. Always looking for a new monster. Same notion he complains about with his last breath. The difference is they do it to justify their wages, he does it to justify his behavior.
Too simplistic a viewpoint IMO. If as you say to Dutch, everyone else is just a pawn, why are there tears on his face when he's looking at a dying Arthur in the stories finale? Why, when Micah;s urging him to come with, like some psychotic master urging his dog to do his bidding, does Dutch instead throw him a look of what can only be described as disgust, mixed with his own self loathing, before he gives one final despairing look at Arthur before taking off? And why, after not even bothering to look as he shoots Micah in the epilogue, does he leave Micah at Johns mercy, and set's the gangs wealth out of his mind, again, leaving it to John and his family? Those are not the actions of a man who cares only about himself. Maybe he thinks in that moment after he shoots Micah that he [Dutch] couldn't take John. But I don't buy that. John is there to kill Micah. He doesn't expect Dutch to be there. John's focus is ON Micah when Dutch shoots Micah. That's how the script in that scene play's out. The PLAYER get's shot by Dutch if the focus is on Dutch for too long in that scene, so it's obvious why things pan out as they do. Because Dutch is supposed to put the first bullet in Micah. I also think you massively underestimate what Dutch thought about Arthur. In several moments in the game he alludes that Dutch is like a father figure, to him [Arthur] and it's also clear in numerous moments that Dutch considers Arthur as sort of like a Son. [Dutch has a good 10 years on Arthur so for Dutch, Arthur would be like a son, like a protege] In the games finale you can see the anguish on Dutch's face when Arthur's facing his end. He knew it was coming anyway because of Arthur's illness, but not like that. And for Dutch it's like he's looking at the loss of his most dependable guy, and someone he's been thick as thieves with [quite literally] for nigh on 2 decades. No one could just SHRUG that sort of thing off.
Mr. van der Linde is truly on of the most complex video game characters ever👍👍 no matter if he shot Micah to avenge Arthur or not, I do think Dutch was moved in some way when Arthur told him that he gave him all he had. Dutch was always a desperate man, who was clearly driven mad in the end by always being on the run till the day of his demise, and not knowing who to trust anymore. After Hosea's death everything started to crumble for him, he lost his best friend and brother in arms. Deep down, through all his madness and greed, I do think Dutch still loved Arthur in some way, and was reminded of this when John confronted him at Mount Hagen. Micah's death, however, didn't save Dutch from his downfall, but only made way for the inevitable demise for the remainder of the gang. I also think Dutch cared a bit more for Arthur than John, as John was already on his way out long before Arthur finally admitted to himself that the whole thing was going down. Also, by Chapter 6 Dutch was cornered up like a wild animal, so he insisted upon leaving John at the penitentiary to not cause any major heat or slow them down. Pretty ironic considering Dutch caused a lot of major heat himself
I always saw Dutch as just a messed up man, through and through. He was constantly battling this desire for family and community with a just as big desire for fame and glory. His desire for fame and glory got so much, that he left his home and birth family to pursue it since his mother just couldn’t understand him. Dutch left to find others like him, people with big desires but struggling to achieve them with fulfillment for whatever reasons. For Dutch, it was that burning desire for glory. I think Dutch truly loved Arthur, Hosea, and the gang. He’s put his life on the line before even when it wasn’t in his best interest. He related to them, cheered with them, grieved with them. And he felt their love and support right back. He valued it and saw them as other reasons to pursue his goals. Where things started shaking up for him I feel was when many gang members starting maturing or changing their desires. They started not just caring about the battle and strife anymore, but results and stability. That, or they just finally decided to open their eyes to Dutch and how really he just wanted to fight. He just wanted enemies and to live like a cowboy forever. A rift between Dutch’s idea and the gang’s grew. When people started questioning Dutch, his unhealthy ego and obsessions with infamy and glory made him think of that as them rebelling or disagreeing with the entirety of his being. He took it as not an insult to his goals, but his lifestyle and identity. It upset him to a point where he felt they were betraying him. He couldn’t separate his goals and huge ego from his identity. That’s how far his ego, obsession, and irritation took him. Then the Saint Denis job happened and not only did Dutch get a serious blow to the head (which may or may not have exasperated Dutch’s madness) but also was thrown into arguably the most vulnerable position of his life where he was truly at the mercy of the world. In guarma he suffered probably the worst since he was not only battling a concussion, but also his entire world and identity shattering. This made Dutch fester, doubt, and only become more obsessed with his ambitions. He began to view them as the only solution to his and by extension the gang’s issues. Dutch always seemed to have that mindset in him, but it didn’t take insane precedent until now. Dutch was more than just ambitious now, he was afraid. Micah took advantage of this and manipulated Dutch so well that Dutch truly couldn’t conceive he was even being manipulated and that these were his authentic choices. Then with the gang disagreeing with all this, Dutch snapped and just went full blown “if you’re not with me than you’re my enemy”. Which lead to the events we know, such as Arthrur’s death. I think in aftermath of that, after seeing Arthur basically sacrifice himself, Dutch rethought a lot of his actions. I doubt he truly admitted any fault of his own in it, but clearly didn’t blame Arthur for what happened and that is why he decided to kill Micah. I think this new line of thought is what lead to Dutch basically becoming a terrorist in RD1. He didn’t blame Arthur, Hosea, Micah, and hell probably not even John anymore, but now the world itself for what happened. As he stood there staring at John and Micah, I think he truly snapped to become the theorized cannibal terrorist of RD1. He fused the misfortunes he and the gang suffered with his obsessions. Dutch was so far up his own ass and ego that he made an enemy of everything rather than just taking a few seconds to have some accountability. In the end, I feel Dutch killed Micah to absolve the pain of Arthur’s death and the weight of John’s simple reality check seconds prior. In that moment Dutch saw Micah as the rat, but not in a simple way. He blamed the world he hated so much for Micah, John, and even himself being where they were. He now only desired to pursue his goals more. To create that diluted dream of a free world, when really it would just be free for those with power and in Dutch’s mind he was the one with the will to be the strongest. After all, that’s why he started his quest in the first place way before the gang even banded together. Dutch left his home to be a cowboy, an outlaw.
Idk...I think Dutch did go back to kill Micah. Micah had stolen the Blackwater money alone. Through dialogue, it's implied Dutch showed up shortly before John did. I think Dutch leaving John alive and leaving the money for them was his redemption. I think shooting Michah was Dutch's way of avenging all that he failed and lost.
Dutch left the gang shortly after Arthur’s death. Few years or months later, Dutch realized that he just couldn’t survive on his own for long as no outlaw can which he repeatedly said. So he then formed a new gang, of which Micah of course weaseled his way back in. Dutch was reluctant at first to have Micah back, as he didn’t trust him anymore. But he agreed, both for added protection & to see whom was the true traitor depending on if the new gang succeeded or not. But once Dutch saw John & Sadie again though & was reminded of Arthur, he immediately remembered everything that happened just a decade ago & how well everything was before Micah joined. Leaving the money & shooting Micah, was his way of admitting previous failures & coming to terms with Arthur’s & the old gang’s memory. In 1911 or RDR1, Dutch was no longer an outlaw with purpose but an outlaw with a never ending desire to fight & cause chaos. His suicide was purely symbolic of defeat, but never guilt or surrender. Dutch Van Der Lind(1855-1911)
I feel that it was Dutch‘s usual motivation. He felt duped, and unlike with Bronte, he played the long game. It’s clear through how coldly he shot Micah.
For me the line when he started to bitch about loyalty non stop. Loyalty is a currency you get by default but when you have to demand it you are a ghost of yourself.
I still wish they gave us two to three basically NG+ endings. 1. Arthur manages to stay a little healthier and overcomes Micah and when in the scene between Arthur, Micah, and Dutch. Arthur forgoes all loyalties to Dutch and sees what he is truly and shoots them both before dying himself not long after. 2. Arthur during “Money Lending, and Other Sins.” when you go after Thomas Downes, Arthur decides to not deal with Thomas Downes realizing quickly that he’s sick and leaves so therefore he never gets TB. Then come Chapter 4. during the Mary Linton mission when she offers for Arthur to run away with her he decides to run away with Mary and is spared from the destruction of the gang. You get a new Epilogue that follows Arthur as he redeems himself and finds a life of peace away from the law completely as he uses what money he’d have gotten to pay off all bounty’s on his head. 3. After chapter 2 you go to check out the spot Micah talks about that’s out in the open completely, the creek bed. Arthur and Charles grow very suspicious quickly and start questioning Micah further until he admits and Micah eventually slips but not before fighting breaks out. Dutch or Arthur end up killing Micah and the gang still self-destructs later on but Dutch doesn’t go as crazy and Arthur dies much later. These obviously wouldn’t work with RDR1 because well Dutch. So they’d be NG+ non-canon endings. Also 1 is for Low-Honor and 2 is for High-Honor meaning you must have High-Honor by time you get to the end of the main part of “Money Lending, and Other Sins.”
I think it was a mixture of being fed up/revenge. Arthur was basically like dutchs son (a lot of people forget arthur was a young man when dutch and hosea find him) but ultimately I think dutchs head injury awoken a sense of ego in him that even micah challenged at the end what with "join us john" to a guy like dutch youre not joing the gang, youre working for him. I think he seen shooting micah as a way to walk away from that past as well making it up to john specifically who he left to die not once, but twice. Basically a "fine im just gonna start fresh"
Dutch clearly changed as a result of the actions in the game. You can tell from the way he went from making it a priority to rescue Sean and Micah, to leaving his “favorite” son to hang.
To me, i feel like French was a guy trying to do the best thing for his alles, but the stress was too much for him, and when he was in a mentally weak state, hewas manipulated by people.
Redditors: go above and beyond to protect against any spoilers or plot reveals for players who havent finished the game This guy: Single-handedly undoes all of that effort by putting one of the most major spoilers in the title of a video that will show up in all the players recommended
The game is over 6yrs old and the video is 6 month old. How long can we really be shielded from a spoiler? Come on now. If your expecting to never get something ruined why are you even on the internet?
@@savior6946 Lol. It's just funny that when you go on reddit everyone is bending over backwards to cover spoilers when vids like this make all that effort pointless. Anyone who googles anything red dead related is now gonna get a bunch of straight up "Why did Dutch shoot Micah?" "Why Arthur died at the end of red dead redemption 2" in their algorithm lmao. Shows the striking difference between redditors and RUclipsrs
@@infintittie lol. Completely side step my question and point out a “striking difference” on something thats honestly extremely irrelevant. Again, games 6yrs old bud. Congratulations on pointing out the one time reddit isnt a cesspool and does something halfway decent. Just too bad your ad for the website one virtue involves a topic thats, what? Say it with me OVER HALF A DECADE OLD LOL. Yotubers can be scummy pieces of shit for clicks. But i dont think its the case here. Again how long do you expect people to cower on topics simply because YOU dont wanna be spoiled. I point you back to my original comment. If youre scared of spoilers, why are you even on the internet?
Just remember Sadie was not known to anyone and could have gone to black water for the money. The character of Dutch loved the power he held. Was he manipulated yes, by someone who was slightly better at manipulating than him.
Low honour Micah kills Arthur to make sure that Arthur could never have a happy ending and sort of because as he said low honour Arthur was Just as bad as Micah and for high honour I guess it was because he saw Arthur accepted his fate and knew he would have died so he just runs because he knew he had no reason to stay this is just what I think I may be wrong
@@nobody-yk2hu Pretty weird how in the low honor return for the money ending he finishes off Arthur after being merely scratched yet in the high honor one Micah leaves him alone despite losing an eye
@@debilman9065 I think it might be because high honour Arthur would be thinking about all of the death and destruction Micah had caused remember if it weren't for that job on the ferry none of this would have happened Arthur would be healthy, the calender boys would be alive, Lenny could have ended up with Jenny but low honour Arthur while he still cared he didn't care as much so he wasn't as aggressive as high honour because both of them wanted the same thing to get the money for John's family and to keep the Pinkertons and the gang distracted
I actually enjoy that you focused primarily on Dutch in your explanation. Makes it easier to grasp at Dutch as a person instead of focusing on Dutch's interactions with everybody.
To some degree he did it for Arthur, but I think he mostly did it to save his ass. He knew that Micah’s character had been fully exposed. So to maintain some kind of power, he also turned on Micah. I mean this is the same dude who knowingly left Arthur to die. He never actually cared about Morality
Nah its hosea because Hosea was the Brains of the gang and the smartest one everytime that dutch wanted to rob or kill at the worst time hosea would be always be beside him and telling him that the plans would not be good idea for Example (robbing the cornwall train or going after bronte so when hosea died along with dutchs brain injury he got from the trolley robbery in chapter 4 really changed dutch and during chapters 5 and 6 was really the turning point and the gangs downfall
Mostly likely there’s only really two routes while it can be likely he did it for Arthur I mainly think after all those years of thinking about it he finally realized he was wrong Micah was not only a rat but Dutch blamed him for the fall of his gang of his revolution and he couldn’t accept that Micah made a fool out of him he had to die
I feel as if dutch was there to off the rat on his own accord, the rat went back for the blackwater score, went to dutch with some bs schemes, pissed him off and reminded him of everything they burnt down .
At the end of the day.. I think the best answers we can get on Dutch’s true intentions at the end of RDR & RDR2, is to have the third game solely about him. It would be kinda interesting to play as Dutch in his prime years. While in the epilogue, you get to play as the new, upcoming, intimidating gang member.. Arthur fucking Morgan
i think on that mountain while arthur was dying he realized how he failed his first member and first son, thats why he was speachless after arthur said “i gave you all i had”
than why he wait so long to shoot Micah?...it was 8 years after the fact
@@NCYunginOn that mountain in 1899 he is clearly confused and traumatised. A few years later he found Micah and made his plan.
@@NCYungin he had so many emotions in him anger, sadness, guilt, stress etc he was probably so traumatized he barely could stand up straight
@@checo8383So it took him 8 years to decide to kill him?
@@TriCopfirst: John was Arthurs son. Dutch had to kill the son of Arthur. And the only family in his family
Secondly: dutch still had Deals and dreams to come true, thats why micah and dutch cooperated. Not love.
3rd: dutch is destroyed, when he saw his Gang getting killed he lost his shit, when he saw his old gang rioting against micah; he saw (dutch) he was wrong
It’s cool how Dutch left John with all of that money. It was the only apology he was going to get.
Nah inflation got so out of hand that the money from blackwater weren't enough to get a trip to Tahiti this is also the same reason why the 10000$ Arthur had in his back pocket weren't enough
@@nobody-yk2hu🤣
"Takes a whole crate of pure gold to buy a Tennese Whiskey nowadays"
@@nobody-yk2hu
it wasn't an apology, he just no longer cared. he came to get revenge on Micah for playing him like a fiddle
@@aaron75fy either theory works, but you’re likely correct.
I just noticed that the game both begins and ends with Sadie being saved from Micah by Dutch in a backhanded way
Bravo Vince!
@@hundkebab2433 Vravo Bince, bravo.
In addition to that similarity, both John and Arthur, that is if you go with John at the end of chapter 6, ascend a mountain to have a confrontation with Micah. Arthur was unaware that he would be fighting him until he jumped him like a coward, but nonetheless Arthur gladly fought him at the end of his life on that mountain top. John ascended the winter Grizzlies with intent to end Micah at the end of the Epilogue, and luckily for us as the viewers, we are able to witness John drop him, which was a long time coming.
Just like Agent Ross first time seeing Jack was when Jack was fishing with Arthur and then Agent Ross last time seeing Jack was Ross fishing
@@user-Jesus-is-LordI don’t see the connection between his comment and yours at all. You’re just reading off what happened..??
I think he solely did it for Arthur. You saw the conflict in his eyes as Arthur was dying on the mountain. Dutch realized his mistakes and upon years of reflection, took it upon himself to redeem Arthur and the gang in that small way. The game is called Red Dead Redemption (2) and I don’t think it’s just about Arthur in this case. Dutch goes crazy in the end but this is the only “redemption” he would be able to achieve being the character he is.
dutch also threw himself off the mountain in the first game so that john wouldnt have to shoot him. saving him from the grief
@@natef1212I never thought of that
damn thats a pretty good analysis
@@Not-Kurosawa Thank you
And Arthur was dead so he couldent do anything to help him
Dutch either shot Micah out of guilt/realisation, of how Micah manipulated and alienated him from the rest of the gang - Arthur and John the most. Or it was realising that Michah was done for and time to cut him loose.
Probably because he was fooled and realized Micah was done. Anything Dutch did towards the middle to late game was self serving.
It’s because he got played by him, just like how Bronte played him and Dutch got revenge. Dutch is a vengeful person
@@josephstalin2606 “Revenge is a fools game”- says Dutch
Gets revenge anytime anyone crosses him- also Dutch
I think it’s both. Bruh was tired of killing family AND Micah just lost all his guys. Easy choice
@@robwatts5281 Arthur says Revenge is a fools game not Dutch
Dutch was already there to kill Micha "same as you, I suppose". I think it was just because he was the rat, simple as that. He blamed Micha for the gang falling apart, much like most players do. Also likely to shift the guilt over to Micha for his own failure.
I mean look at RDR1 with the old gang members, everyone has more or less turned crazy, bloodthirsty criminals. Like Rains Fall said to Arthur: "We become more of who we are". Dutch was always a blame-shifting stonecold criminal who used others to suit his needs but he didn't fully shrug of the facade until Chapter 6.
It wouldn't make sense for Micah to say that they got together again and for him to keep the gun down on Micah until he shot the rat.
I believe he went to get satisfaction, still doubting whether Micah betrayed him or not, but he finally comes to his senses when John arrives and they have that dialogue.
He is essentially doing exactly the same as John during the Epilogue.
He's trying to catch up with old members of the gang and trying to get revenge on whoever caused the fall.
He's just unsure of who that actually was, too stubborn to realise he played such a big part.
Their stories during the Epilogue kinda parallel eachother. John found some of the "good" members, whilst Dutch found the "bad" ones.
@@Justarandom69
Great analysis!
yup, I think his massive ego could not bear being fooled and manipulated by Micah so he used Micah to get the gold back and was just waiting for an opportunity to kill him for vengeance. I think this is confirmed by Dutch leaving the money to John thereby washing his hands of Arthur's death. And then notice in rdr1 Dutch is no longer influenced by anyone any more. No more Evelyn miller's no more hoseas or Micahs, Dutch has become ideologically lost in rdr1
One thing that’s just heartbreaking is that alongside Arthur’s line “I gave you all I had.” Molly also said “I gave you all” in a poem. Dutch was morally gutshot twice realizing he let the woman he loved essentially kill herself and he also betrayed a son that for a long time he truly loved.
Dutch also said “I gave you all I had” in one of his rants, pretty sad stuff
@yigit-nh2vn that's the wife of the guy who Infected arthur right?
@@Antboi4653 No, that's the guy who died from repaying the debt (we never meet him), in the coal mines of Annenberg
@FIGHTCLUB659 oh, thank you for telling me
Damn I had fully forgot about that. Yep good point.
I loved how Dutch shot Micah and had nothing to say about it. It showed how Dutch who always shows himself to have all the answers to every question had nothing left to offer, he was a broken man. But it also shows him as an enigma who no one really understood, Dutch probably did not even understand himself too well... Unlike Arthur who had incredible amounts of self-reflection throughout the game.
Dutch has no diary to speak of, no journal. The only insight we get in regard to the inner workings of his mind are brief radiant dialogues in the camp, and the perception of his gradual descent through the eye's of Arthur. Dutch was no enigma, but the game is about the gradual destruction of the gang, though Arthur's perspective. We can only speculate upon what Dutch would have thought about in numerous moments and we also need to remember just how much Micah is going out of his way to discolour Dutch's perception of even his right hand man. Just what exactly does Micah say to Dutch, in many moments?
Micah's this wheedling suck up constantly trying to ingratiate himself and sow doubt in Dutch's mind about many of the other gang members. We can divulge all that also from many radiant dialogue moments in camp. Note how NO ONE seems to like or even wan't to tolerate Micah? It's because he's always bad mouthing everyone else to Dutch, always criticising always sowing seeds of doubt.
Him shooting Micah close to the end of the epilogue is the way Dutch admits if only to himself that Micah is responsible for everything that goes wrong. It all goes south once he's in the gang. But he only shoots Micah once, and not fatally, because he knows John wants vengeance too.
@Requiemslove authur was very emotionally intelligent and humble (especially high honor authur) while Dutch is insecure, paranoid and needs outside validation and followers to feel secure.
he lost the thing he was talking about the whole time was family he lost the gang and his only real family
I'm on my 4th play through and I've tried to think from Dutch's viewpoint and I have realised just how Arthur was doubting every single thing Dutch said with cold, sarcastic replies. I think Arthur has to take some responsibility for pushing Dutch closer to Micah.
Dutch is simply a borderliner. Also not an enigma whatsoever to anyone who knows the signs.
"There goes the greatest man we know... ...even he's lost" - Uncle, talking about Dutch.
Arthur was twice the man Dutch was
@joekuvorkian no, arthur was no different from Dutch.
@@mastermace7770 somebody has no media literacy
@@mastermace7770have you eveb played chapter 6 or the game for that matter?
@@mastermace7770 arthur and ditch couldn't be any more different
I think he just remembered Micah wasn't in RDR1.
All joking aside I feel like people overlook the fact Charles and Sadie are in the final mission and are both characters who aren't in RDR1 so you don't know they're safe and they get shot and stabbed respectively.
I really think Rockstar was trying to tease players into worrying that they were all going to die in that mission. But I've never seen another player who even picked up on it.
I mean I see what your saying but honestly I don't agree. Sadie and Charles didn't die. That's why no one picked up on it. Your complaining about people not picking up on something that didn't happen. I jsut don't think this comment adds anything. The Micah joke is funny tho
We see what happens to Sadie and charles they are alive
@@thewolf4325 Sorry I probably didn't explain myself very well.
Yes Sadie and Charles do not die. But when you're playing the game for the first time, you don't know that. Then in the final mission, one gets shot and the other is stabbed and at Micah's mercy.
I *think* Rockstar wanted you to fear that they weren't going to make it. Seeing as most of the other gang members who weren't in RDR1 all died. Lenny, Sean, Hosea, Susan, Strass etc.
Since there's zero tension whatsoever that anything can happen to John or Jack or Abigail. I think Charles and Sadie were supposed to be stakes that you were nervous about. But no one picked up on it because the focus was on John and Micah
@@bigrigjoe5130I honestly believe this comment is right on the mark, when playing the epilogue, even if you haven’t played RDR1 you already know johns not going to die, so it makes the mission less plot driven, having Charles and Sadie get injured gives some real tension to the mission
@@bigrigjoe5130 I understand what you are trying to say I was a little confused by the first comment
Here's a thought, Dutch was pretty quiet during the stand-off at one point. I imagine he might be asking himself some questions about how he and Micah were found, probably deducing that Micah must have talked and hearing John bring up Arthur might've reminded him of Arthur telling him that Micah's the rat, thus, what we see. Can't explain the just dipping out though.
Maybe he peaced out because he was disgusted with himself?
lol you just made up a scenario that didn’t happen. You even went as far as creating thoughts in Dutch head. Why do theories based on hypotheticals
@@Co-GlizzyIt’s called a fan theory lol. Get that stick out of your autistic ass and just have fun with it, don’t worry too much about details with fan work😂💀
Nope he confirms in one of the dialogues that he was there for the same reason as John
@@Co-Glizzy Literally this whole video is making up theories based on what COULD have been dutches thought process
Think that dutch likely was with micah for a while waiting for a chance to kill him. Micah had a big gang, if he shoots micah he's toast. He still wants to live, but he wanted revenge
Micah mentioned "all manner of folk making social calls", hinting that Dutch showed up relatively to quite soon before John showed up.
Very good analysis. :)
Also, Dutch confirms he was going to kill Micah, John asked him What are you doing here? And Dutch said same as you confirming he was going to kill him
That actually makes sense, with Micah’s gang all killed my John he had his chance
Why did John have to convince dutch in the standoff then
I don't think that Dutch ever believed that Micah ratted on the gang (he seems a little sad when he shoots Micah and he shoots a look of utter contempt at John when the latter thanks him). Since Rockstar considers the high honor/help John escape ending canon, I think he sided with John because of what Arthur said about giving Dutch all he had.
Dutch realized Arthur truly gave everything for him and was truly like a son to him and that Micah only ever took for himself. Yet Dutch failed to make the right choice and take a side then.
I think Dutch shot Micah to make things up to Arthur in a way. To choose a side and to try to make Arthur's final sacrifice for John count. After all, by RDR1, Dutch no longer cares about money.
@@frankgrimes7388and which selfish reason do you think that is?
@@mattl8774he's a narcissist dude, everything is about himself, his ego.
@@JHS270694 you think he shot him for being embarrassed that the ultimate manipulator was finally manipulated by someone else?
During the dialogue, John says, what are you doing here Dutch says same as I suppose literally confirming he was going to kill Micah I think it’s both he did it for Arthur, but mostly for himself
I think the good ending Dutch realizes Arthur isn’t the rat .Bad ending Dutch sees Arthur as just as bad as him since Arthur would need to spy to know about the money also since Arthur didn’t help John .
I think what really changed Dutch was Hosea death
No doubt. The look on his face when hosea gets shot. He was losing it before then but truly broke after that moment. The scene in lagras of Dutch playing chess by himself really illustrated how lost and deranged he had become.
Hosea kept them all together and Dutch under control
I don’t think it’s the death of Hosea the issue, but the fact that Hosea is not anymore there to hold back Dutch
@@matteocontarin9866 Well yes, the death of Hosea means no Hosea bro
True
the way they both look at the dynamite and decide it's probably not a good idea to smoke
Yeah that has me fucked up, all the risky shit outlaws in the Wild West would get up to, but not smoking near dynamite.
Meanwhile in current year at your nearby gas station…
@@lastfirst5863 i died when i saw that scene🤣
“Hm? Oh not near this” 😅
that was a visual metaphor
4:12 the moment when they realised it was actual funny
In my opinion I think it was for both Arthur and Sadie. Arthur's death had haunted Dutch for the last eight years and when his name was brought up during their final confrontation of the game, Dutch finally came to his senses for a brief moment and realized he let Micah lead him astray ultimately causing the downfall of the gang. He knew he had already failed Arthur and if anything, he could at least do a couple good things in the end (save Sadie and leave her and John the money). Even on my first playthrough of RDR2 I noticed how Dutch gave John a cross look on his face after John told him "Thank you...I..." to me it seemed Dutch was thinking "I didn't do it for you John I did it for her!"
When I think of Dutch, I think of a man who had a plan for everything except for dealing with the consequences of the unknown that grew bigger and bigger till he started losing it. Micah helped things along, but when Dutch would say "I...WE" when he corrected himself on different accounts, I think that's a small indicator that deep down, he always had his self interest in mind, but he had to correct himself because he remembered oh yeah, I gotta help these people too. Micah knew this, and so he just quietly tried to push Dutch into his line of thinking, especially after somehow getting his ear. I think Micah was trying to prove survival is better than whatever Dutch's fantasy of what his idea of a free world is.
So yeah, I think it was a mix of both personally. Even if Micah wasn't there, the Pinkertons still had their eye on the Van der line gang, and Dutch would have just been dealing with more and more pressure trying to pretend everything's fine till he broke. Micah basically just sped things along with his crazy schemes. Him shooting Micah to me said he finally realized Micah was pulling the strings. He tried to ignore it, but then his past caught up to him AGAIN via John because of Micah. Dutch's father was a hero to him, so that's what he wanted to be, but he was too self absorbed to pull it off, and Micah basically just waltzed in and twisted everything he stood for and he let it happen. But again, he knew his true nature was going to be the end of him. He found out he wasn't a hero, which I think is why he just didn't feel anything when he killed the guy and left John out there. Like he said, "You can't fight gravity" or another phrase that suits I think is, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
I always thought that he shot micah because he mentions Arthur
@KeyUploads I don't agree with people that Dutch went there to kill Micah.
When he says, "Same as you, I suppose" I believe he just came to get satisfaction from Micah, whether he really was a rat or not.
A "friendly" conversation where he was being manipulated again, or it wouldn't make sense for Micah to say that they had team up once more.
When John arrives, Dutch hears John's words and sees Micah mocking Arthur's death, finally coming to his senses.
@@Justarandom69same I would agree that something triggerd him to kill Micah when John was talking or when Dutch realized what happend he was sick of it and wanted to end it
Same lol
@mommatthew2756 But were there Pinkertons in Micah's gang? Did the Pinkertons show up when Dutch was there? No, they arrived much later, in fact, it's not possible to guarantee that they went there because of Micah.
It's more likely that they went to kill Micah, just like Dutch and John, the three of them made a lot of trouble before reaching the top of the mountains and were the "last" outlaws alive.
It doesn't even make sense for Dutch to go to Micah, knowing that the Pinkertons could be with him, it doesn't make sense either Micah to warn them about Dutch, unless they had already been talking for even longer.
Micah really was a rat in the main chapters, but in the epilogue, the Pinkertons were just doing their job, maybe they wouldn't arrive so late if Micah really still had some connection with them, they probably wanted to catch both him and the others by surprise.
@mommatthew2756 I understand the point of Dutch being somewhat surrounded, but it still doesn't make sense, if he knew that Micah was accompanied by a whole gang.
I think he went to Micah with some doubt, maybe even thinking about killing him if he really found out he was the rat, but he wasn't sure.
He went to have a conversation to clarify things, but in this he ended up being manipulated again, as Dutch's aim is to live an outlaw lifestyle, Micah fed his ego and dream again, as his phrase already says.
"We have money, we have dreams, join us John, join us."
Not to mention that he still suspected that John could be the rat too, Arthur's death only made him stop doubting Arthur himself.
He says he's doing the same thing as John, because regardless of whether John is going to kill Micah or not, he came to resolve old business and settle accounts with the past, Dutch is also there to do the same, that doesn't mean they will do it the same way.
Only with John's words and Micah mocking Arthur's death, in addition to refusing to release Sadie, almost dying, does Dutch wake up to who Micah really was, here he finally gives up his big ego and his fantasies of greatness, saving John and Sadie, leaving the money for them and giving up how much Micah or that Blackwater money could help with his dream.
He realized he has to shoot either John or Micah. He chose Micah out of his love for John. That’s exactly why he abandoned all the money - his plan changed right there and then
I don't think Dutch loved John anymore after being broken out of prison. They were both angry at each other and Dutch even gave John a hardened stare as he walked off without saying a word while John was thanking him for his help
If u shoot Micah during the standoff then Dutch shoots John for a failed scene and said “oh son….” With a sad look and regret on his face
@@dno7567 He wanted to pretend he was Red Harlow for a min
“It was never about the money John”🤓
@@dno7567dutch never loving John is completely untrue he definitely lost his trust in John after the robbery of Saint denis and wanted him to cut loose but he always like John that's why u see arthur being somewhat jealous of John being dutch favorite even In rdr 1 John always mentions the good part of dutch
Dutch says to John that he never took him as and errand boy
@@dno7567 dutch loved john he just didnt trust john there was way to many moments in dutch eyes where john became suspicious and in the beginning of the game john was doing his best to pull his weight because he knew him leaving affected a lot of people as shown from arthur when he talks about or to john because he doesnt want to be seen as dead weight frm the gang especially dutch him leaving was enough to be seen as unreliable, and in rdr1 dutch says some lines saying how he disappointed with john helping the gov and has multiple chances to kill john but decides not to and run to the top of the mountain "We gotta stop seein eachother like this john"(talking abt rdr2 end)and gives a speech abt to john telling him he coulda found another option and no matter how hard he tries the world just going to see john as another dutch after him which became dutch and john last heart to heart moment before the end of rdr1 leading to johns death
John: "What are you doing here Dutch?"
Dutch: "Same as you i suppose"
My theory is the normal theory,
loose ends with micah.
Guilt and a mix of schizophrenia perhaps
I mean what's interesting here is that here he could have shot John as well (which he does if you shoot Micah before he does) but didn't but still had a sour face. Years later he activetly goes after John with total, undisputed intent to kill. My guess is he didn't care for money anymore and spared John & Sadie because of Arthur
@@supersuede6493RDR1 Doesn’t make any sense anymore since RDR2 came out though
@@FabianTellez-s6dIn what way?
Where tf does schizophrenia come into play? Lol
@@FabianTellez-s6dcause it's a sequel that fans asked for that Rockstar never planned on
I think something that gets glossed over often when referring to how the gang falls apart and the decline in Dutch's mental state is that during the trolley mission gone wrong Dutch hits his head pretty hard which most certainly gave an already mentally erratic Dutch brain damage. Then couple that with the death of Hosea and Micah whispering in his ear, there was no way that he could possibly be able to think clearly during the waning weeks of the gang.
You're right, I forgot about this but back when the game came out that was a plot point people brought up in YT videos when talking about Dutch's mental decline dang u just unlocked a memory 😅
Ngl that was the biggest plot twist for me when he shot him. I said “Huh!?”😦😦😦
I said “FUCK YEAH HE HAD A GOOD PLAN FOR ONCE!”
@@Cheez_Doodlezz i actually dont think it was planned it felt spur of the moment. If it was planned Dutch would have walked off with the blackwater money
@theoutsiderjess4869 Bad writing, and the millionth example of John Marston having absolutely zero agency in this game. Besides the fact everybody in general can't lift a finger without Arthur, John especially can't do anything without him, whether it's restoring faith in his wife in her own husband or spending time with his son (or saving said son from being kidnapped) or saving his own life, or hell having his own unique hat 🥴 Sure I absolutely adore Big Daddy Arthur, but they had him eclipse John like some insanely Chad older brother, the older brother who naturally happens to be the star QB on the high school football team and drives a sports car and has a six pack of abs with footlong dong, while John is the pimple faced-2nd string wide receiver-boy who most people are really only nice to because they like Chad.
@@theoutsiderjess1869 Well, John arriving definitely wasn't planned but he probably would've still Shot Micah even if he didn't come for him
@@CommanderLongJohn no.
Both Micah and Dutch were planning to reunite again for two different reasons.
1. Dutch reunited with Micah to kill him when the moment was right. That's why he says to Jhon he was there for the same reasonas he was.
2. Micah planned to give Dutch to the Pinkertons. That is why the Pinkertons were the first people to show up in Micah's camp when the credits are rolling up. It was supposed to be a secret hide out.
10:47 I think the reason why micah shot miss grimshaw here is he saw what she did to molly . While everybody was talking she shot molly which kind of make her unpredictable. Micah realises this and during the standoff he shot her in the first chance he got. Maybe Micah is not so dumb afterall.
I don’t think it’s that deep.
She took her eyes off of her opponents during a stand off, and Micah took advantage and killed her. I think it’s just that
Micah was never dumb. He was arguably the smartest one there. But smart doesn’t mean good.
Thats a pretty clever line of thought but i don't think micah was thinking that deeply or that many steps ahead he was crazy and never liked any of them anyway. He has no use for ms Grimshaw but her being headstrong was probably seen as a threat to him somewhat but not like that IMO
@@TheHaas123 i wouldn't say the smartest, when you have well-educated men such as Trelawny and the other loan guy w the glasses not to mention hosea n dutchs street smarts. But he definitely was more conniving, and manipulative. Which got the job done for him and if u wanna attribute that to smarts cool, but if no one fell for his BS and never trusted him how smart does he look then? But iget what you're saying.
That last quote of yours, something like "John, Charles, Sadie, they all attribute the downfall to Micah" I think that explains why he shot Micah. Dutch knew since 1899 that everyone hated Micah, that they saw him as the problem and on some level after 8 years of introspection I think he began to see that, but he still liked Micah, got along well with him. Enough to retrieve the money with him after all those years.
After seeing John and Sadie, and being reminded of Arthur, I think he thought about how they were his true family, and how they think of Micah. He was brought back to the old gang in that moment, and decided to act on the popular opinion of his old family. He gave Micah what he had coming to him, what the old gang thought he deserved, for the old gang, the family. One last decision for the good of the gang. I think for a moment it brought him back to the head of the Van der Linde gang. It was against his own wishes however, and I think he resented it. Evidenced by the look on his face toward John as he walked away. But he did it for John, for Arthur, Sadie, for everyone who used to call him family, but he didn't enjoy doing it. Remember this quote from RDR1:
[ROSS] So in the end, you didn't have the guts to shoot him. (Dutch)
[JOHN] When the opportunity presents itself, I'll put a bullet in him. I wont like myself for doing it, but I'll do it.
I think in this moment, with John showing up like a ghost from the past and summoning the memory of Arthur with him, I think Dutch made an impulsive decision much like John had to later make toward killing Dutch. He didn't want to shoot Micah, but his family did. And so he did it for them. And then he walked away with a face of pungent disgust, seemingly communicating "There. that what you wanted? I killed the only one who stood by me. Hope you're happy because I'm not."
i read that final line ins Dutch's voice
John doesn't "kill" Dutch in RDR1. Dutch kills Dutch. I also don't believe that Dutch in "any" capacity" was a friend of Micah's. I think it was his intent to play a long game. I don't believe he helped Micah retrieve anything. Consider the line of Micah's where he stipulates that John and Sadie and Charles were not the "only" visitors that day. Dutch showed up to talk with Micah. And in Micah's mind he's thinking "duped him again" but as I said, Dutch is thinking of a LONG game.
But then John and Sadie turn up, and Micah's gang are all shot up. Dutch's plan for a long game, which undoubtedly had something to do with him getting a CLEAR answer about Micah's involvement in how things went south, changes in that standoff. Undoubtedly when Micah said that "Arthur's long dead and gone" with zero indication in his voice [Micah's] that such phases him. For Dutch it was as good an answer to his mind, or as good as any answer COULD be that Micah "admitted" that he was the rat. Dutch doesn't even look when he shoots Micah. To my mind he "can't" look or he would have filled Micah with every bullet he had. And he said to John earlier "same reason as you".
He WANTS John to get to shoot Micah by the time that Dutch is walking away, the look on his face, to John, is as much self resentment as it is anger [at John] for making Dutch face his demons. [You only get the Dutch shoots John fail state if the player wrongly interprets what the standoff is about, and shoots Micah, but that's more clever scripting disguised as Dutch's urge for self preservation, than anything else. We're SUPPOSED to have the dramatic dialogue, and the switching between Dutch and Micah]
@@Requiemslovethe ending that’s what I did switch the gun to Dutch only to say something than switch right back to micha
i always think it was also jealousy of Micah is why Dutch shot him. look at the power dynamics at the beginning of the game. Micha was at the bottom of Dutch's gang hated and laughed at by everyone and only because of the will of Dutch that Micah could ride with them. and slowly through sucking up Micah worked his way to second man replacing Arthur. and as this happen Dutch's gang weakened to the point of collapsing. next thing you know Micah is now in charge of his own gang and it is larger then Dutch's original gang and Dutch now has to play second fiddle to Micah. this must of hurt his ego, Dutch in his mind has to be the king of his castle. this nobody within 6 months destroyed everything Dutch had created replaced his legacy with his own and now Dutch has been forced to be his follower because he has no one else to ride with him. Micah then obviously was hand picking member of his new gang that were only loyal to him not Dutch, Dutch was just a nobody in the eyes of Micah's new gang and he was only allowed to be a member because of the will of Micah. now Dutch is in the weaker position a complete reversal of events. no way this did not hurt Dutch's ego. Dutch was just wating for the perfect moment to put a bullet in him I believe. he hated that this man out smarted him, usurped him and then knowing Micah's personality probably rubbed it in his face every single day, making refences to his failed gang. Micah and his gang probably even had nick names for Dutch that he and his loyal gang members bullied him with everyday. Dutch was probably seen as a joke in Micah's gang. a failed leader while Micah was now the king, the great leader. a complete 180 in power dynamics.
Damn what a great comment
Dutch wasnt in Micahs gang. He showed up not too long before John.
@@hustler666100he went with them back to blackwater to pick up the money then Rhode back to the gang's hideout. he most likely spent a few weeks with them plenty of time for Micah to poke him on the events of his former gang.
@@hustler666100really?
@@Sofe-px1vi yeah they teamed up just before to get the blackwater money
Dutch is a very interesting character I couldn’t imagine what he was feeling after Arthur’s death he didn’t care who he killed
Dutch shot Micah because he wanted to blame micah for the gang falling apart and he didn't want to admit that he (Dutch) was the real problem. So he shot Micah to get a measure of revenge before finally slipping away into insanity. Dutch probably figured Micah would sell him out to the Pinkertons at some point after getting the blackwater money. He realized he wasn't interested in the money so he silenced Micah to end that loose end.
John did ask Dutch why he was there and he state “same as you I suppose” , and we all know John was there to kill Micah and end his life for what he did years prior , to the gang and Arthur
Plot twist, he was aiming for Sadie but the arthritis kicked in.
😂😂 “ahh dam it there it goes again”
Carpal tunnel isn't just killer for artists...
I think it's as Dutch says in his you can't fight change speech - all he has ever done is fight and can't give up that fight no matter how feudal it is to do so.
*Honestly* I think the money stolen was probably *Micah’s cut* . As *greedy* as Dutch was it’s unlikely he’d walk away with nothing. So he was likely there to take *HIS portion* of the money n split. When John showed up, and started saying Arthur’s name, it resurrected *Guilt* and *Pain* Something Dutch *KNEW* Micah was responsible for
I feel like the ending where he says that Dutch damned them all gets through to Dutch more, especially because Hosea also says that Dutch will damn them all and everything after the Saint Denise robbery basically shows that Hosea was right.
Dutch was crying his eyes out as Arthur died he was avenging Arthur when he shot Micah cus he realized he became the man he told his people not to become
You make it sound like he was bawling. He wasn't. There were a few tears, how could there not be? But he was far from bawling there was far too much going down, for that. Dutch in that moment couldn't believe what he was faced with. He was too shocked, too appalled, too dejected to REALLY cry. The tears we do see, I don't think he was even aware of. He's sad but there's too much other stuff for him to notice it.
4:10 the way they don't light up the cigarretes due to the explosives is funny as hell
Man, I love this game and all of its nuances that make videos like this even possible. Great video, I'm glad it was in my recommendations section. Cheers!
If anything i think John bringing up Arthur was a moment of clarity for Dutch that reminded him Micah was essentially what caused the downfall of the gang since Blackwater.
Whether Dutch intended to avenge Arthur or just wanted revenge on Micah is kind of up for debate but he ultimately dooms John in the end as Micah’s death kicks off the events of RDR1. I personally believe Dutch had a moment of clarity on the mountain and couldn’t bring himself to kill Arthur.
In the epilogue I actually think he thinks he's finally "saving" John and Abigail and Jack. He doesn't know at that point that the "law" would use them [Abigail and Jack] as pawns to get John to go after his "old" gang. Or does he know really how HE would change after the events in RDR2. He goes off the deep end. He becomes a man driven of a need for anarchy, likely hoping deep down that someone would just get a lucky shot off on him. As the finish of the first game approaches, he's literally begging John to just shoot him already. But John, despite everything, despite WHY he's forced into hunting his old gang, can't do it.
So Dutch tells John he's "got a plan" and then backs away until gravity will do what no one else seemingly can do. [kill Dutch] He's likely thinking in that moment "my death here can mean something, they should leave John alone, if I'm gone" He is of course wrong, but he can't know that in the moment.
I like that it’s ambiguous. The charismatic and charming Dutch from the early game is gone, whether because he changed or because he showed his true self. I like that the game doesn’t have him give a clear reason for why he does what he does, I bet even *he* doesn’t know.
It's not "that" ambiguous. We get numerous radiant dialogue moments in camp which highlights Dutch's deteriorating mental state. By the end of the epilogue, IMO Dutch has at that point never been more clear in focus. He shoots Micah because he finally comprehends that Arthur was right all along. The Dutch we see in that moment is the Dutch who wrestles with his conscience about the events at the start of the game. [the ones we're not first party privy to] Not the Dutch we see probably in chapter 4 and onwards.
@@Requiemslove you might both be right, that's one of the things I love about this story, how many years later do you think people are going to be disagreeing on things like this about this game? It's a beautiful piece of art that could only exist in a video game.
It's so great that this game is still sparking theories and analyses years after its release which you couldn't really say for a lot of story based games
I believe Dutch shooting Micah was a cop out so John didn’t kill him next because it looks like Dutch been living with Micah up until John finds them and gets revenge on Micah.
Arthur and John looking over at each other as they’re about to light cigs next to the dynamite is the best thing ever 😂
Dutch probably became a villain at some point, in the first chapters he really showed that he cared but it seems that after Hosea death or something else, but i think that Arthur's death was a point were he broke, and started questioning what he did until that point, until he meet John and had to choose between His other son and Micah the guy that killed the last spark of humanity in him, one of the first members and the one that tried to save him from himself.
I always thought that Dutch's last word to Arthur is the most important: "I..."
As he said in RDR1, Dutch's nature is to be an outlaw, and the Government is fighting his nature, he just can't let go of himself, pure ego. He didn't do all of this to protect the gang, he was trying to protect his way of life and I don't think he really cared about any gang member, I think they were just means to an end, protect himself. And that's when Arthur told him "I gave you all I had", he just answered "I...", he did all of this for himself.
Because john killed all of the micahs men. No gang to take over ("same as you" = shoot micah, and take over the gang).
John reminded him of old gang, arthur and ruined this opportunity. So he reconsider, shoots micah and goes. Pretty simple actually.
I mean Dutch does say that he's there for the same reason as John, which just basically spells it out.
But ultimately it's problably to cause less issues with the canon, since in RDR1 John hasn't killed any gang member yet.
Not accurate. John kill's Micah. Dutch merely shoots Micah. [Not fatally, he leaves that to John] In the first game, John is blackmailed by the "law" and yes the parenthesis there is meant, to go after the remaining gang members. His wife and child are literally on the chopping block, if he doesn't. [He has NO choice] It's not a task he goes after with any personal gusto.
Entertaining and thoughtful analysis/ thought experiment! You got me wanting to play through the story again.
Unrelated to your video's material, you've got a great voice. You don't sound far from a young Hosea! Keep it up, take care of your voice. God bless!
i always thought it was like his way of admitting his downfall, killing Micah and leaving the blackwater money he cared so much about behind. it's like he realized he took a lot of wrong decisions and thought that 1 bullet could redeem him but I doubt it really worked even for himself. He just had his loneliness and guilt left when he walked away
Dutch's decision to favor Micah over Arthur, Hosea, and John in the game is complex and reflects Dutch's deteriorating mental state and changing priorities as the story progresses.
1. **Manipulation by Micah**: Micah Bell is skilled at manipulating Dutch. He plays into Dutch's increasingly paranoid and aggressive tendencies, making Dutch believe that Micah is more aligned with his vision of a violent, anarchic future. Micah capitalizes on Dutch's growing distrust of Arthur and Hosea, portraying them as obstacles to Dutch's leadership.
2. **Conflict within the Gang**: As tensions rise within the Van der Linde gang, Dutch becomes more erratic and less rational. Micah exacerbates this by feeding Dutch's desire for control and power. Arthur and Hosea, on the other hand, represent a more grounded and moral influence, challenging Dutch's descent into chaos.
3. **Dutch's Decline**: Dutch's mental state deteriorates throughout the story due to various factors, including guilt, pressure, and a sense of impending doom. Micah aligns himself with Dutch's darker impulses, while Arthur and Hosea represent reminders of Dutch's past ideals, which he is increasingly abandoning.
4. **Micah's Loyalty (or Deception)**: Dutch perceives Micah as loyal and a true believer in his cause, particularly in contrast to Arthur and Hosea, who start questioning Dutch's decisions. Micah's deception is not apparent to Dutch until later in the story, by which time Dutch's judgment is clouded.
Ultimately, Dutch's choice of Micah over Arthur, Hosea, and John reflects his descent into madness and his susceptibility to manipulation. Micah's ability to exploit Dutch's weaknesses and desires plays a significant role in this tragic turn of events.
Dutch's decision to shoot Micah in "Red Dead Redemption 2" is a pivotal moment that reflects his eventual realization of Micah's true nature and his own moral reckoning. Several factors contribute to Dutch's choice to turn against Micah:
1. **Betrayal Revealed**: Dutch eventually comes to understand that Micah has been manipulating him and the gang for his own gain. Micah's true allegiance to his own self-interest becomes clear, particularly after Arthur Morgan exposes Micah's treachery and provides evidence of Micah's involvement with the Pinkertons.
2. **Loss of Faith**: Throughout the game, Dutch's faith in Micah is gradually eroded as he witnesses Micah's disregard for the well-being of the gang and his increasing ruthlessness. Dutch, who prides himself on loyalty and camaraderie, realizes that Micah has betrayed these principles.
3. **Arthur's Influence**: Arthur's influence on Dutch cannot be overlooked. Arthur, who once served as Dutch's right-hand man, opens Dutch's eyes to the truth about Micah's deception. Arthur's loyalty and sense of justice ultimately sway Dutch against Micah.
4. **Self-Preservation**: In the end, Dutch's decision to shoot Micah may also be driven by self-preservation. By eliminating Micah, Dutch removes a significant threat to himself and possibly seeks redemption for his own failures in leadership.
5. **Symbolic Act**: Shooting Micah can also be seen as a symbolic act of reclaiming Dutch's moral compass and acknowledging the damage caused by his own choices. It marks a turning point for Dutch, albeit a belated one, where he finally confronts the consequences of his actions.
In summary, Dutch's decision to shoot Micah represents a culmination of his character arc, where he confronts the reality of Micah's betrayal and his own role in the downfall of the gang. It is a moment of reckoning and redemption, albeit too late to undo the damage that has been done.
Well there's that symbolic act of declaiming his moral compass but is then immediately undone in RDR1 by him wanting to kill John for sport
@@Meatball996 yes that is true. Dutch RDR1 is a whole other monster compared to Dutch’s descent in 2. However, we aren’t fully aware of Dutch’s actions prior to the game except Heidi McCourt. I think Dutch used her the same way he used the other girl in rdr1, only shooting her to cause a distraction so he can run off.
@@Meatball996 We can’t fully say or confirm Dutch’s mental state if he was always insane and just hiding it, or he slowly descended into madness. It’s a concept that brings a lot of other open theories out into the fanbase which is another reason I love it so much.
Bro smashed that ChatGPT
I love how John and Arthur realized what they were next to when they were about to light their cigarettes.
Wonderful video, I just wonder if that bump in Saint Denis assisted in any way in bringing out his true ideals. He had been spiraling since the beginning, but in my vision it was a lot quicker after the loss of Hosea and the trolley incident.
Definitely, I suffer a similar head injury in a wreck. It can completely warp your personality I'm way more likely to react with Hostility towards stimuli than I was before.
I didn't notice it then when I was playing but after watching this I realized how funny it was that both John and Arthur threw away their cigerettes after looking back at a wagon full of tnt lol
finally got this game on ps4 a couple days ago and ive been playing through the game without spoilers but then i just get this video title right in my face on my home page today out of absolutely nowhere. THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE MR CYNIC
yeah same sh1t here, f**k this stupid clickbait clout hungry youtubers, f**k this generation
I always imagined it due to him knowing he did wrong. Realizing he was being used by another person, maybe with some guilt or what he did to his gang. Revenge was always Dutch’s thing. It makes sense why he’d dwell on it.
I love how these games don’t have simple villain figures. They easily could’ve turned Dutch into someone you despise and hate, especially because of the first game, but they didn’t. Instead he’s a conflicted character that is extremely manipulative but also does care about his crew to some extent. He could’ve turned on Arthur but for once he actually didn’t know what to do or say. He was not written to be a simple character.
I’ve always interpreted Dutch saying “Same as you I suppose” to John as acknowledging they were both seeking closure.
Dutch wasn’t there to kill Micah and maybe he was undecided in what he actually wanted to do.
Having failed the gang he was no longer a man of planning, he indicate how much he’s change but saying how little he has to say on things anymore.
I don’t think even he knew why he was there until John showed up. John’s redemption was his revenge on Micah for the gang and for Arthur. Dutch’s redemption was trying to rectify the mistake he made in the past, except he didn’t know that until the moment presented itself
Dutch lost his best friend Hosea, his son Arthur, and his family, the gang. Pretty sure he was out to kill Micah after some long reflection.
he sent Micah to the "Mega Gay Zone"
"Not the Gay Zone"
" thats it micah youre going to the *MEGA GAY ZONE* "
Remember, son, dying is gay.
Fuck outta here and go to the
*MEGA GAY ZONE*!
Sauce or loss with The van DER Linde gan
I think Dutch’s memories and regrets with Arthur played a huge role in deciding to shoot Micah. But I also think it a matter of revenge for his pride too. Dutch was this charismatic, adored man. But he gave in to Micah’s flattery and forked tongue…and it cost him the adoration and influence he once held. Dutch thought himself a king, but Micah made him a fool. And Dutch wasn’t going to let that slide.
Can’t believe how it ended. Arthur gave his all, he tried everything he could to keep the gang together, he also helped Micah escaped from prison. On the other hand, for Dutch, Arthur was always by his side, showing loyalty, then, he realizes that Dutch was changing after he drowns Cornwall’s body and throws it towards the alligator. Little by little, he tells the gang members to leave and start a new life, because he knew Dutch wasn’t the same, he was killing more and more people as he continues to say, stick with me, I have everything planned blinded by money and the dream to move to Tahiti. Also, Hosea’s death affected him and his decisions because there was no longer a second commander.
Angelo Brontes body but ok
I think after Dutch saw John and Sadie still believe that Micah was the rat after so many years, he finally realized that Micah really was the rat.
Or maybe Dutch believed Arthur when he said Micah was the rat, but for whatever reason, he didn't want to kill Micah until he saw how badly John and Sadie wanted to "avenge" the gang that left them behind after so many years, and maybe that, for lack of a better term, "inspired" Dutch to finally put Micah down.
I think it is just as likely that Dutch shot him to avenge Hosea, or Sean, or Lenny, or even Kieran, as it is that he did it to avenge Arthur. I seriously doubt Dutch had Arthur foremost in his mind at the time. He might have possibly done it for the sake of John, who was standing there present when he shot, but I kinda doubt that too (considering RDR1). John & Arthur abandoned him, and Dutch is not the forgiving type. His game is TiT TiT TiT TiT TiT for tat. My guess is that Dutch's reasoning for shooting Micah involved nobody else besides Dutch. Most probable reason, in my opinion, is that Dutch was nursing a 10-year-old grudge because Micah fooled and manipulated him, causing his gang to disintegrate. Frankly, I can't invent another reason that would enrage Dutch against Micah more than that realization would. It was revenge...again. But it was revenge for Dutch not for Arthur or anyone else, same as always.
I think it is more probable that Dutch was thinking about Cornwall, Milton, Bronte, and Colm when he shot than Arthur, Hosea, & John. Dutch was always more focused on and concerned with his enemies than his friends...or himself. He struggles most when there is no clear target to pursue. In fact, that is the fundamental underlying reason why all his friends left him in the end. With no target, he starts aiming at his own friends (most obvious in Guarma & Lakay). Truth says: Dutch abandoned the gang long before the gang abandoned Dutch. Dutch was speechless because despite everything he had tried to shake Arthur loose, the guy remained Dutch's loyal friend to the end...and Dutch, knowing exactly how to deal with foes, simply doesn't understand friendship, eventually living & dying alone without a single one while crusading against his adversaries. Arthur's friendship confounds Dutch throughout the story, John's maybe more so. You see it from the very start. Arthur's last words weren't the first ones to make Dutch stammer and side-step. He was confused. What should I say while watching my friend die when the concept of friendship is beyond my comprehension? To him the gang consisted of followers, supporters, co-workers, brothers, loyalists, parts of a machine called 'the crew', not friends. I don't think he wanted to be friends with any of them. He can't distinguish any difference anyway. After all, he is Dutch, and they are, every one of them, not Dutch.
Could have gone to Tahiti...stayed to fight enemies instead. Can't beat nature. Dutch shot Micah because he saw Micah was his enemy. I'm surprised, his enemies don't usually last that long. It's why Dutch is so well adapted to making new ones. He needs an enemy because enemies are what you fight against. Always looking for a new monster. Same notion he complains about with his last breath. The difference is they do it to justify their wages, he does it to justify his behavior.
Too simplistic a viewpoint IMO. If as you say to Dutch, everyone else is just a pawn, why are there tears on his face when he's looking at a dying Arthur in the stories finale? Why, when Micah;s urging him to come with, like some psychotic master urging his dog to do his bidding, does Dutch instead throw him a look of what can only be described as disgust, mixed with his own self loathing, before he gives one final despairing look at Arthur before taking off? And why, after not even bothering to look as he shoots Micah in the epilogue, does he leave Micah at Johns mercy, and set's the gangs wealth out of his mind, again, leaving it to John and his family?
Those are not the actions of a man who cares only about himself. Maybe he thinks in that moment after he shoots Micah that he [Dutch] couldn't take John. But I don't buy that. John is there to kill Micah. He doesn't expect Dutch to be there. John's focus is ON Micah when Dutch shoots Micah. That's how the script in that scene play's out. The PLAYER get's shot by Dutch if the focus is on Dutch for too long in that scene, so it's obvious why things pan out as they do. Because Dutch is supposed to put the first bullet in Micah. I also think you massively underestimate what Dutch thought about Arthur. In several moments in the game he alludes that Dutch is like a father figure, to him [Arthur] and it's also clear in numerous moments that Dutch considers Arthur as sort of like a Son. [Dutch has a good 10 years on Arthur so for Dutch, Arthur would be like a son, like a protege]
In the games finale you can see the anguish on Dutch's face when Arthur's facing his end. He knew it was coming anyway because of Arthur's illness, but not like that. And for Dutch it's like he's looking at the loss of his most dependable guy, and someone he's been thick as thieves with [quite literally] for nigh on 2 decades. No one could just SHRUG that sort of thing off.
I still like the idea that the train crash gave Dutch a concussion he didn't fully recover from
Mr. van der Linde is truly on of the most complex video game characters ever👍👍 no matter if he shot Micah to avenge Arthur or not, I do think Dutch was moved in some way when Arthur told him that he gave him all he had. Dutch was always a desperate man, who was clearly driven mad in the end by always being on the run till the day of his demise, and not knowing who to trust anymore. After Hosea's death everything started to crumble for him, he lost his best friend and brother in arms. Deep down, through all his madness and greed, I do think Dutch still loved Arthur in some way, and was reminded of this when John confronted him at Mount Hagen. Micah's death, however, didn't save Dutch from his downfall, but only made way for the inevitable demise for the remainder of the gang.
I also think Dutch cared a bit more for Arthur than John, as John was already on his way out long before Arthur finally admitted to himself that the whole thing was going down. Also, by Chapter 6 Dutch was cornered up like a wild animal, so he insisted upon leaving John at the penitentiary to not cause any major heat or slow them down. Pretty ironic considering Dutch caused a lot of major heat himself
I always saw Dutch as just a messed up man, through and through. He was constantly battling this desire for family and community with a just as big desire for fame and glory. His desire for fame and glory got so much, that he left his home and birth family to pursue it since his mother just couldn’t understand him. Dutch left to find others like him, people with big desires but struggling to achieve them with fulfillment for whatever reasons. For Dutch, it was that burning desire for glory.
I think Dutch truly loved Arthur, Hosea, and the gang. He’s put his life on the line before even when it wasn’t in his best interest. He related to them, cheered with them, grieved with them. And he felt their love and support right back. He valued it and saw them as other reasons to pursue his goals. Where things started shaking up for him I feel was when many gang members starting maturing or changing their desires. They started not just caring about the battle and strife anymore, but results and stability. That, or they just finally decided to open their eyes to Dutch and how really he just wanted to fight. He just wanted enemies and to live like a cowboy forever. A rift between Dutch’s idea and the gang’s grew. When people started questioning Dutch, his unhealthy ego and obsessions with infamy and glory made him think of that as them rebelling or disagreeing with the entirety of his being. He took it as not an insult to his goals, but his lifestyle and identity. It upset him to a point where he felt they were betraying him. He couldn’t separate his goals and huge ego from his identity. That’s how far his ego, obsession, and irritation took him. Then the Saint Denis job happened and not only did Dutch get a serious blow to the head (which may or may not have exasperated Dutch’s madness) but also was thrown into arguably the most vulnerable position of his life where he was truly at the mercy of the world. In guarma he suffered probably the worst since he was not only battling a concussion, but also his entire world and identity shattering. This made Dutch fester, doubt, and only become more obsessed with his ambitions. He began to view them as the only solution to his and by extension the gang’s issues. Dutch always seemed to have that mindset in him, but it didn’t take insane precedent until now. Dutch was more than just ambitious now, he was afraid. Micah took advantage of this and manipulated Dutch so well that Dutch truly couldn’t conceive he was even being manipulated and that these were his authentic choices. Then with the gang disagreeing with all this, Dutch snapped and just went full blown “if you’re not with me than you’re my enemy”. Which lead to the events we know, such as Arthrur’s death.
I think in aftermath of that, after seeing Arthur basically sacrifice himself, Dutch rethought a lot of his actions. I doubt he truly admitted any fault of his own in it, but clearly didn’t blame Arthur for what happened and that is why he decided to kill Micah. I think this new line of thought is what lead to Dutch basically becoming a terrorist in RD1. He didn’t blame Arthur, Hosea, Micah, and hell probably not even John anymore, but now the world itself for what happened. As he stood there staring at John and Micah, I think he truly snapped to become the theorized cannibal terrorist of RD1. He fused the misfortunes he and the gang suffered with his obsessions. Dutch was so far up his own ass and ego that he made an enemy of everything rather than just taking a few seconds to have some accountability. In the end, I feel Dutch killed Micah to absolve the pain of Arthur’s death and the weight of John’s simple reality check seconds prior. In that moment Dutch saw Micah as the rat, but not in a simple way. He blamed the world he hated so much for Micah, John, and even himself being where they were. He now only desired to pursue his goals more. To create that diluted dream of a free world, when really it would just be free for those with power and in Dutch’s mind he was the one with the will to be the strongest. After all, that’s why he started his quest in the first place way before the gang even banded together. Dutch left his home to be a cowboy, an outlaw.
Idk...I think Dutch did go back to kill Micah. Micah had stolen the Blackwater money alone. Through dialogue, it's implied Dutch showed up shortly before John did. I think Dutch leaving John alive and leaving the money for them was his redemption. I think shooting Michah was Dutch's way of avenging all that he failed and lost.
Dutch left the gang shortly after Arthur’s death.
Few years or months later, Dutch realized that he just couldn’t survive on his own for long as no outlaw can which he repeatedly said.
So he then formed a new gang, of which Micah of course weaseled his way back in. Dutch was reluctant at first to have Micah back, as he didn’t trust him anymore. But he agreed, both for added protection & to see whom was the true traitor depending on if the new gang succeeded or not.
But once Dutch saw John & Sadie again though & was reminded of Arthur, he immediately remembered everything that happened just a decade ago & how well everything was before Micah joined.
Leaving the money & shooting Micah, was his way of admitting previous failures & coming to terms with Arthur’s & the old gang’s memory.
In 1911 or RDR1, Dutch was no longer an outlaw with purpose but an outlaw with a never ending desire to fight & cause chaos.
His suicide was purely symbolic of defeat, but never guilt or surrender.
Dutch Van Der Lind(1855-1911)
If Dutch didn’t shot Micah for Arthur, if he didn’t do it as a form of compensation, why did he let John keep the money? Doesn’t make sense…
I feel that it was Dutch‘s usual motivation. He felt duped, and unlike with Bronte, he played the long game. It’s clear through how coldly he shot Micah.
fire post pulled me back into the peak that is rdr2 lore analysis
He’s so much more complex than most people seem to think he is
18:30 according to Dutch's va he cried aftwr walking away
'I gave you all' hearkens back to the poem Molly left for Dutch.
I will always remember dutch as: i’ve got a plan arthur
For me the line when he started to bitch about loyalty non stop. Loyalty is a currency you get by default but when you have to demand it you are a ghost of yourself.
4:12 such a good bit
I still wish they gave us two to three basically NG+ endings.
1. Arthur manages to stay a little healthier and overcomes Micah and when in the scene between Arthur, Micah, and Dutch. Arthur forgoes all loyalties to Dutch and sees what he is truly and shoots them both before dying himself not long after.
2. Arthur during “Money Lending, and Other Sins.” when you go after Thomas Downes, Arthur decides to not deal with Thomas Downes realizing quickly that he’s sick and leaves so therefore he never gets TB.
Then come Chapter 4. during the Mary Linton mission when she offers for Arthur to run away with her he decides to run away with Mary and is spared from the destruction of the gang. You get a new Epilogue that follows Arthur as he redeems himself and finds a life of peace away from the law completely as he uses what money he’d have gotten to pay off all bounty’s on his head.
3. After chapter 2 you go to check out the spot Micah talks about that’s out in the open completely, the creek bed. Arthur and Charles grow very suspicious quickly and start questioning Micah further until he admits and Micah eventually slips but not before fighting breaks out. Dutch or Arthur end up killing Micah and the gang still self-destructs later on but Dutch doesn’t go as crazy and Arthur dies much later.
These obviously wouldn’t work with RDR1 because well Dutch. So they’d be NG+ non-canon endings. Also 1 is for Low-Honor and 2 is for High-Honor meaning you must have High-Honor by time you get to the end of the main part of “Money Lending, and Other Sins.”
I like the part where you didn’t really answer the question
I think it was a mixture of being fed up/revenge. Arthur was basically like dutchs son (a lot of people forget arthur was a young man when dutch and hosea find him) but ultimately I think dutchs head injury awoken a sense of ego in him that even micah challenged at the end what with "join us john" to a guy like dutch youre not joing the gang, youre working for him. I think he seen shooting micah as a way to walk away from that past as well making it up to john specifically who he left to die not once, but twice. Basically a "fine im just gonna start fresh"
The future GOAT of youtube just dropped. I got my oreos and milk ready!!
Dutch clearly changed as a result of the actions in the game. You can tell from the way he went from making it a priority to rescue Sean and Micah, to leaving his “favorite” son to hang.
3:50 I was literally just playing while watching this and I triggered this dialogue right as it came up in this video. That was crazy haha
To me, i feel like French was a guy trying to do the best thing for his alles, but the stress was too much for him, and when he was in a mentally weak state, hewas manipulated by people.
Redditors: go above and beyond to protect against any spoilers or plot reveals for players who havent finished the game
This guy: Single-handedly undoes all of that effort by putting one of the most major spoilers in the title of a video that will show up in all the players recommended
The game is over 6yrs old and the video is 6 month old. How long can we really be shielded from a spoiler? Come on now. If your expecting to never get something ruined why are you even on the internet?
@@savior6946 Lol. It's just funny that when you go on reddit everyone is bending over backwards to cover spoilers when vids like this make all that effort pointless. Anyone who googles anything red dead related is now gonna get a bunch of straight up "Why did Dutch shoot Micah?" "Why Arthur died at the end of red dead redemption 2" in their algorithm lmao. Shows the striking difference between redditors and RUclipsrs
@@infintittie lol. Completely side step my question and point out a “striking difference” on something thats honestly extremely irrelevant. Again, games 6yrs old bud. Congratulations on pointing out the one time reddit isnt a cesspool and does something halfway decent. Just too bad your ad for the website one virtue involves a topic thats, what? Say it with me OVER HALF A DECADE OLD LOL. Yotubers can be scummy pieces of shit for clicks. But i dont think its the case here. Again how long do you expect people to cower on topics simply because YOU dont wanna be spoiled. I point you back to my original comment. If youre scared of spoilers, why are you even on the internet?
Just remember Sadie was not known to anyone and could have gone to black water for the money. The character of Dutch loved the power he held. Was he manipulated yes, by someone who was slightly better at manipulating than him.
He couldn't avenge Arthur because he was the reason Arthur died. John avenged Arthur.
I just about made myself cry, imagine if after Dutch shot Micah he said, “that’s for my son” 🥲🥲
Could you do "why Micah kills/ignores Arthur depending on your honor level"
Low honour Micah kills Arthur to make sure that Arthur could never have a happy ending and sort of because as he said low honour Arthur was Just as bad as Micah and for high honour I guess it was because he saw Arthur accepted his fate and knew he would have died so he just runs because he knew he had no reason to stay this is just what I think I may be wrong
@@nobody-yk2hu Pretty weird how in the low honor return for the money ending he finishes off Arthur after being merely scratched yet in the high honor one Micah leaves him alone despite losing an eye
@@debilman9065 I think it might be because high honour Arthur would be thinking about all of the death and destruction Micah had caused remember if it weren't for that job on the ferry none of this would have happened Arthur would be healthy, the calender boys would be alive, Lenny could have ended up with Jenny but low honour Arthur while he still cared he didn't care as much so he wasn't as aggressive as high honour because both of them wanted the same thing to get the money for John's family and to keep the Pinkertons and the gang distracted
Dutch never realises until Arthur dies. When the rat was shot, Dutch didn’t really do much after that.
Thanks for spoiling the ending with the title on my feed.
I actually enjoy that you focused primarily on Dutch in your explanation. Makes it easier to grasp at Dutch as a person instead of focusing on Dutch's interactions with everybody.
I love that scene when the gangs riding and Arthur looks at Dutch and then back at John, so much said without a single word
To some degree he did it for Arthur, but I think he mostly did it to save his ass. He knew that Micah’s character had been fully exposed. So to maintain some kind of power, he also turned on Micah. I mean this is the same dude who knowingly left Arthur to die. He never actually cared about Morality
Your vocals could replace Hosea and Mr. West Dickens🤣
Is that a jab?
The traumatic had injury Dutch received during the trolley crash in Saint Dennis definitely contributed to his unraveling mind.
i think that the death of molly plays a big part in his descent into madness.
Nah its hosea because Hosea was the Brains of the gang and the smartest one everytime that dutch wanted to rob or kill at the worst time hosea would be always be beside him and telling him that the plans would not be good idea for Example (robbing the cornwall train or going after bronte so when hosea died along with dutchs brain injury he got from the trolley robbery in chapter 4 really changed dutch and during chapters 5 and 6 was really the turning point and the gangs downfall
Mostly likely there’s only really two routes while it can be likely he did it for Arthur I mainly think after all those years of thinking about it he finally realized he was wrong Micah was not only a rat but Dutch blamed him for the fall of his gang of his revolution and he couldn’t accept that Micah made a fool out of him he had to die
I feel as if dutch was there to off the rat on his own accord, the rat went back for the blackwater score, went to dutch with some bs schemes, pissed him off and reminded him of everything they burnt down .
At the end of the day..
I think the best answers we can get on Dutch’s true intentions at the end of RDR & RDR2, is to have the third game solely about him.
It would be kinda interesting to play as Dutch in his prime years. While in the epilogue, you get to play as the new, upcoming, intimidating gang member.. Arthur fucking Morgan