The saddest part is I feel like, through the whole story, Arthur and Hosea were the only two who DID have Dutch’s back. They wanted what was best for him and the gang the whole time
When Hosea was about to die I thought the game was going to launch me into deadeye. It hurt a lot when he got shot and I couldn’t save him. I was basically too shocked to speak.
sad part is Dutch was so delusional that anyone who questions his plans was seen as disloyal, when Micah usurped Hosea's position as number 2 instead of it going to Arthur he was able to sow seeds of discord
Hosea dying was ultimately the beginning of the dying process of the gang. Without Hosea, Micah was able to snake his way into Dutch's psyche to get him to do dumb stuff to raise his bounty. Ultimately Micah's plan was to take Dutch to the highest bounty possible then turn Dutch in. That is why at the end of RDR2 the pinkertons showed up after Dutch shot and John killed Micah. The plan I think was Micah was going to meet with Dutch and then the pinkertons show up and thats when Dutch is taken in, then Micah runs off with the blackwater and the bounty for Dutch money.
@@israelruiz8706 Maybe if they're able to find something or someone Micah loves, for them to hold hostage. In which case it would probably be his money if he is unable hide it, or his two revolvers that he went to hell and back to retrieve from Strawberry. 🤣🤣
I honestly think Dutch was always crazy. Bcz in the beginning of the game Javier claimed Dutch killed a girl in a bad way and based on what Arthur said, it was Dutch and Micah's plan to do so. So ever since hearing that I had just the slightest bit of foreshadowing that Dutch was always somewhat not all there
@@betterconsole I'm just saying he's never shown the craziness until now. Always thought about it but never followed through with his psychotic ways. Just my thought
I agree. I think it’s a case of Micah’s brutal methods rubbing off onto Dutch. They become increasingly more desperate and in desperate situations it’s easier to cut corners so to speak. Still though, he’s a POS for leaving Arthur to die, TWICE. Three times if you count the Odriscoll kidnapping.
He never turned against Arthur. That would imply he was on Arthur's side to begin with. We even see in the very beginning of the game, if Arthur or anyone else slightly questions Dutch, Dutch guilts them or uses some other manipulation tactic to get them to stop. The only one who could keep him in check was Hosea, but otherwise, Dutch looked out for Dutch and he loved to be the king of his little band of misfits.
@@aiden-sy3ex I’m not gonna get in a heated debate again with somebody and call them retarded and hear the same lines over and over again when they don’t add up.
Hosea could hardly keep him in check. Dutch argues with him in chapter 1, by getting mad at Hosea who was simply concerned for everyone's safety Then there's dutch ordering to rob cornwall when Hosea strongly opposed Attacking and killing bronte when Hosea strongly opposed And there's camp interactions where Hosea shares sentiments that Arthur took 5 chapters to start feeling. He even tells John early in chapter 2 he should think of his family and leave with them if things go south. He knew dutch couldnt be stopped (& that hosea himself didnt have much time left)
I think you're pretty spot on about the Lakay "chess move" scene and Arthur rescuing John, being the times we see them butting heads, but I honestly think the root is ultimately Hosea's death. Arthur+Dutch+Hosea were the original gang. Collectively they were the leaders of the gang, each holding a role. Dutch the charismatic "planner" and personality figurehead of the gang, Arthur as the muscle, protector and heavy hitter, and Hosea as the anchor, voice of reason and the one who took the "grand plans" and actually made them reasonable and workable. Though I hate to say it, because Hosea is so likable, he also kinda kept Arthur "in his place." If you replay the game, keeping an eye out for it, there are many many times when Hosea "teasingly" tears Arthur down and reminds him that Arthur is the muscle and not brains of the operation. We also often see Hosea question Dutch and pulling Dutch down to earth with reason and concerns. We also often see Hosea encouraging Arthur not to worry or think about things too much and just trust that Dutch will get them through. Ultimately, Hosea was very much a mediator and glue that help Arthur and Dutch together. After Hosea dies both of them are very shaken up and full of doubts about the future. They also both try to find ways to fill the void Hosea's death left behind. Arthur feels the need to fill Hosea's shoes in holding Dutch accountable and bringing him down to earth, concerning the real threats and needs of the gang. The whole "what about the women" line ect. Dutch starts looking for ways to keep people trusting him, in their place, while struggling to enact his "grand plans" into something grounded and actually effective. Neither Dutch nor Arthur can fill the void Hosea has left. They both stumble and fail and they see one another stumbling and failing, which erodes their trust and confidence in one another even more. So if I were to point to one root moment where the bond between Arthur and Dutch really starts to break, I'd say it was Hosea's death, even though Arthur and Dutch don't really interact with one another during that event.
There is a very interesting dialog between Sadie and John on the Epilog, in which they both theorize that the Dutch they knew (Peaceful, generous and empathic) never existed. It was just a disguise to hide his truly devious personality. It's actually a very believable theory and I don't see people talking about it much. To be honest, just like John and Sadie, I believe that Dutch was always a manipulative Sociopath. He just slowly revealed his true colors as the years went by.
You can only wear a Mask for so long, before it starts to become itchy & you have to take it off.. Even, if it's only Briefly. So, yes.. I would have to agree.. He never was whom he portrayed himself to be.
There’s a similar sentiment from Arthur on the ride from the Oil Refinery to Wapiti (with a wounded Eagle Flies). It’s when he talks about the Indians being used by Dutch and reflects that Dutch likely used him and the rest of the gang in the same way. Dutch was always using the gang to further his own goals, at the expense of their safety. It’s why Dutch chooses desperate people to groom into his cult.
Ppl talked about Dutch changing when he hit his head robbing the trolly station but there is something he says as soon as you start chapter 3 after you chase down those criminals that escaped and after you Dutch and Hosea go fishing....as soon as the boat docks Dutch sits back and says "I think I .....I mean we are gonna be ok" it's a little thing but it shows that Dutch always only ever cared about Dutch
I’ve always assumed that the head injury was the final catalyst to Dutch cracking. Brain damage plus the trauma of Hosea dying could’ve taken away what little was holding him back from being 100% crazy.
@diabeticmonkey Brain damage can remove inhibitions, that compounded with Hosea's death removing the gangs Moral compass lead to Dutch revealing his self-serving attitude
Dutch probably has narcissistic personality disorder from the get go, pretty sure he sees Arthur, John, Hosea and his other favorites as extensions of him self, He probably does care to some extent but he does take priority. Hosea was the closest thing to a therapist Dutch was ever going to see, Micha was the opposite of that.
@@mikeb5063 Bipolar could be likely as well, The trolley thing just seems so minor, I mean arthur literally gets shotgunned in a cutscene and he just lives as the odriscals ride with him hogtied. And lives. Dutch just bumps his head, and lives idk man the gameplay too always falling off buildings and other goofy stuff. edit: forget to mention yeah i agree 100%
For me it started before the gang killed Bronte. On their way to the swamp to meet Thomas and Jules he says to Arthur that Micah is the only one left with any loyalty
But that didn’t come out of nowhere, it was built up since the beginning of the game. Dutch killing that girl during the Blackwater Heist for no reason shows that has been changing the whole time
An interesting part about that conversation is that if you listen to the whole thing, Arthur points out to Dutch how he’s been by his side for 20 years, causing Dutch to realise if even just for a moment how truly loyal Arthur is, and then he goes on to tell Arthur how it’s just everything that’s been going on and him feeling as though everybody is doubting him, that is wearing him down, causing him to act the way he is.
@Howsthedaybays to me, Dutch had me questioning his leadership when he thought he was able to outsmart the Gray's and Braithwaites. Hosea was still alive, and even then, he wasn't willing to listen to any logic or reasoning and would ignore anyone that told him otherwise because he needed "them (the gang members) WITH him not AGAINST him (his literal words) He was always a narcissist and a hypocrite, but it took me a while to see it until I played the main story a few more times. Like the video creator said, Dutch just wanted blind loyalty, rather than just loyalty. A competent leader would have hopefully tried to think more about what's best for everyone and not just himself or his ego. He saw himself as more as a Robinhood character, but in reality he was just a dark and fucked up dude who was a power hungry outlaw who would kill in cold blood, no questions asked if you even looked at him the wrong way.
When Dutch randomly says he thinks Arthur will be the one to betray him because he seems the type, he sounded very bitter in hindsight and back in Chapter 3 at that. It's one of those things you don't pay attention to, except when you look back at it.
@@theoutsiderjess1869 Even then, he thought John betrayed him until John gets through to him. Only then, does he actually realize that Micah was the rat all along. The fact that they exchange a glance and let each other go was more than proof of that, John could've shot him if he wanted to but he was just there for Micah.
@@jordyalmonte42i spent a LOT of time in each chapter and got this interaction in chp 2 as well. i already knew dutch was shady or at least ends up being bad but i definitely was like "oh okay bitch i see how it is" when that happened. dutch is really your classic manipulator, charming and good with his words, and he takes in people from mostly rough backgrounds who have little else to rely on or live for. he cares about others for as long as they make him feel good
dont pay attention? Arthur is Dutchs executioner and was basically raised by him, so that moment in chapter 2 when dutch drops that bomb about arthur betraying him in the end because hes the type is a real wtf moment. even arthur reacts like that if you let him.
Theres some potential of Kieran: the last member of the gang, one of the least influenced by dutch and more than likely had some kinda affect on arthur. Him saying about Dutch and Colm being alike is something we think about afterwards. I feel like dutch found out and probably decided not to look for him, even tho he could have spilled to the odriscolls about the new camp location.
I think Kieran's innocence really was his downfall because I believed he went back to the O'Driscolls thinking that all would be forgiven considering he was forced to go with Dutch and the gang and ultimately was considered a traitor by the O'Driscolls and brutally tortured and executed after giving the whereabouts of Dutch's hideout. Kieran was too innocent and trusting for the gang life and it caught up with him.
@@10171981 arthur tries to kick him out with kieran saying if he goes back to them he will be killed to arthur letting him stay in. at no point did it seam like he wanted to go back to colm in my opinion.
@@10171981 He says at Jack's party joining the gang turned out to to be the best thing he'd ever done, no way in hell he went back to them lol they kidnapped him probably at some point after, or even during, the party at Shady Belle.
@@10171981Kieran dies when Jack is saved and everyone gets drunk. Kieran gets wasted, wanders into the forrest and most likely gets snatched by the O’Driscolls
@@JohnnymarstonNegsarthur right because breaking someone out a city jail where you massacred and shouted out Arthur’s name the entire way was much better than a prison break.
@@JohnnymarstonNegsarthur and do you realize the jail break in strawberry put more eyes on them than the prison break ? It was a small town that got massacred. Micah was literally screaming Arthur’s name the entire time of the mission which means he was implicating his accomplice lol. And the guy he broke out was the person who ended up working with the Pinkertons.
@@Dontizzle24 To be fair, the fact that he was screaming Arthur's name doesn't matter all too much because pretty much everyone in earshot was killed. Witnesses who did survive were hightailing it and could likely only provide a vague description.
During my 2nd playthrough of the game where I put over 200 hours slowly navigating Arthurs story and enjoying every moment. I heavily critiqued the unrealistic and cartoonish decline of Dutch, towards the end of the game. His rapid advancement from emphatic leader to crazed narcissist always felt unbelievable to me. It took until my third playthrough to realise how perfectly Rockstar did it. We see everything through the eyes of Arthur, we see the community and family, Dutch has grown. We hear the stories of his greatness. We are led to believe he changes in the game. When in truth he just becomes worse at hiding his true intentions. He is always planning tactics, reading about rebellion and toting values on others. He views the gang as pawns even if he doesn't realise it. Only seeing their love when it represents in unfaltering loyalty. As his family fails, he finds refuge in Micah who butters him up and brings him vultures who want nothing more than to benefit from his downfall. He mocks Arthur because he doesnt see him as a son but as a traitor. He only values unquestionable loyalty. Seeing his gang as an army. Even Eagle Flies is used as a soldier in a war the natives cant win. Dutch isnt high class but he so desperately wants to be viewed as an equal among them. He kills Angelo when he mocks Dutch. He kills Cornwall when he is cornered and outsmarted too. Wanting nothing more than to bite back and seem strong. Only in the end, when Arthur lays dying, is Dutch able to see his foolishness and snap out of his delusion. To see that the loyalty they showed him was more than he deserved. It wasn't the tram crash or the deaths or any of that. Dutch just saw the world one way. In the end, only when he is exposed as a fool. Does he begin to see the real enemy, eventually resulting in him killing Micah. Although he still remains broken and bitter. Leading to the desperate and callous RDR1 Dutch.
This is put perfectly! I just realized this, too. Dutch just veiws the gang as a means to an end, and he will say whatever he needs to get that. However, the loss of Hosea and Micah being in his ear excelorates his loss pf composer.
no, he changed. it was micah, all the death around him started to take its toll on him, expecially the death of hosea, the council. and micah was the biggest factor. im tired of people think he didnt change he just couldent hide his intentions. he did change. change. not intentions. CHANGE.
Hell, Dutch casually accused my Arthur of betrayal as early as Act 2 in camp. It seemed really out of place at the time, so I thought maybe it was a glitch.
I have seen in my plays many places where Dutch started turning on Arthur. I feel it started after they got back from Guarma and he had the time to process the death of Hosea and Lenny. I think it set deep when he found a new face to manipulate in Eagle Flies and the tribe's young men. The nail in the coffin so to speak was when he insisted that John be removed from the gang and then again at Cornwall's business as he walked away from Arthur. That's my theory anyway.
I think when Micah said told Dutch that they were possibly going to have a "truce" with the O'Driscoll's and wanted Arthur to be the sniper and lookout on the mountain. They pretty much left Arthur Morgan to die with the O'Driscoll's, but he escaped and survived. When Arthur asked, "You guys were going to SAVE ME weren't you"? My gut feeling was like...oh my god! They were REALLY going to leave him to die and might have even KNOWN that it was a set up and was perfectly content on letting it happen anyway! Another time is when they got the boat to kill the Italian boss and Dutch told Arthur to go get the guy being attacked by the Super Croc. Dutch didn't exactly move that quick on the trigger to save Arthur! Dutch would rather have Arthur die "in battle" rather than potentially have a political fallout if Arthur leaves due to not going along with Dutch and his plans.
Someone pointed out that you can make the case of Arthur usually always wandering of on his own after because he leaves camp way too often. It's only when you take too long they will send someone (Bill) to look for you and that happened in game.
Dutch know damn well that Arthur is the heart and workhorse of the gang if Arthur dies in battle he becomes a martyr he can use his death to inspire the gang. However if Arthur is alive and will betray him he knows that Everyone will go with him. Finally he replaces him with Micah as dutch not only doesn't have a plan, he is unwilling to play the charismatic father figure much longer, he wants soemone to feed his ego he wants to her hear he is a genius and not that plan is awful
@@theoutsiderjess1869 I can hear it now ! If Arthur would have died, Dutch would be like "you know what Arthur would have wanted" and pretty much use that line EVERY time it was Dutch's idea but everyone did not want to go through with that plan of Dutch's. Just to get the gang to blindly follow Dutch without question.
i noticed immediately after robbing the train station, in the mission where you go to lakay when your riding there with dutch he talks about hosea losing his spine and eventually says micah is the only one he can rely on anymore.
Well I remember Dutch saying to Arthur he will betray him eventually. Which was a really akward moment for me. I had a forshadowing since then. And in the end we all knew he eventually does betray at least John in RDR1.
I've had that happen too. It happens all the way back in Chapter 2! It's a random camp interaction. I was just casually walking by Dutch's tent, and he blurts out "I think you'll end up betraying me one day, Arthur" (or something to that effect). It's so out of the blue, especially as during Chapter 2 Arthur is still pretty blindly loyal to Dutch. It just shows how Dutch was so paranoid about being betrayed, even early on, that he saw signs of it when they weren't really there, and manifested it himself with his own behaviour.
@@emilyprice178 yes that was during the Rhodes act. I don't remember when exactly but remember it was the lake side camp. Yeah it was really strange saying it to Arthur who was still the most loyal to him.
8:30 id also like to add another reason of why he killed Bronte like that is because of his position. Dutch is a narcissist and they are known for being very insecure. Dutch knew that Brontë was someone who is superior and is above Dutch in many ways due to his wealth, status, and place in society. Because of Brontë being more superior, Dutch knew he couldn’t reason with him and get into his head like he did to colm odriscol who is someone that’s inferior to Dutch, so the only way he felt he could deal with him is to murder him in cold blood out of rage, jealousy, and fear. He didthe same thing to Cornwall, another man who’s superior and has high status and Dutch instead of reasoning with him he murdered him
Dutch turned on Arthur when he gave him his back just to let him get killed. Other previous events are examples of Dutch's behaviour with people like John, who let him in jail as a replaceable element of his gang and because of his deep hate for John knowing how he constantly disagrees with him. Or Dutch questioning Arthur's loyalty due to the moments Arthur doesn't agree with him
I started replaying the game for the third time recently, mainly for the secrets and missions I never completed but once I got to chapter 6, I experienced something I never have before. I was out looking for a certain bridge trying to find the serial killer and Bill rides up from out of nowhere saying something like "Dutch has been real worried, you've been gone a while and wants you back. You coming?". I don't know whether this happens in other chapters or not, this was the first time I saw it, but the fact that Dutch sent Bill out to look for Arthur really drives home how paranoid he gets towards the end of the main game. In the other chapters, you could spend forever doing whatever but once chapter 6 hit, once the fear of betrayal set in and once the fallout began, Dutch sends out Bill to look for Arthur. It's almost hypocritical, Dutch goes on about faith yet he doesn't have faith in Arthur and the fact he gets Bill to do it, or possibly even another gang member, says a lot about how he perceives himself. Why didn't Dutch go looking for Arthur if he was so concerned? No. Instead, he has the members do it instead like tools or accessories which is something you see throughout the ENTIRE game. Rdr2 is an insanely detailed game from the main plot, to small mysteries found at the very edge of the map that people are still trying to resolve and the fact I can write a whole damn paragraph on ONE encounter really proves how good this game is. I think Dutch needed therapy. A lot of it.
The signs were there since chapter 1 he is always asking Arthur if he is doubting him or going to question him like hosea. Which is odd as Arthur defends Dutch in these chapter like a loyal son. It got worse by chapter 4 and guarma it wasn't until things completely gone to shit that. Dutch started to antagonize Arthur as Arthur finally became his own man and that upset Dutch cause if Arthur was healthy the whole gang outside of micah, bill and javier would have left with him
@@gamerepic700 Dutch saved his life he is wanted in a whole other country. It would be hard for anyone to turn their back on a man who saved them from a bad spot and wasnt racist. Which is why Javier kept his gun pointed down he is conflicted he believes John and Arthur however his loyalty to Dutch is just as strong.
I’ve been having this theory, where back in Saint Denis, after the bank robbery, Dutch hits his head badly, and I think that, along with Hosea’s passing, really messed him up, and throughout the game from that point you can see Dutch rubbing his head where it was hit, even in cutscenes. You can mess with this theory however you’d like, this is just something I’ve took notice in my second play through.
There is that mission with the trolley that crashes after the failed coach station robbery. Dutch mentions in that mission he took a blow to the head and is "seeing three of everything." And from that point forward things with dutch get far worse far quicker. I fully believe that blow to the gead really negatively affected Dutch.
The spot he started to turn is just before the pinkertons offered everyone their freedom if arthur gave up dutch and dutch asked "why didn't you take the offer?". He was already considering betraying arthur then and there cause it appears had he got that same offer he would have given up arthur.
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i always felt he was a little off but Hosea was the calming level headed voice in Dutch’s life. Thats why he was Dutch’s right hand man. and when Dutch followed his ideas and plans things went smoothly. Whereas things went wrong because he had Micha in his ear a lot. Such as the Trolly robbery and the bank job, Hosea was against it but it was Micha pushing for the job. When Arthur got sick his thoughts started to change. Arthur was more so connected to Hosea because he spent so much time taking from Hosea. Arthur was a combination of Dutch and Hosea. So with Hosea death and Arthur being sick and having a change of heart, Micha was all he had a guy that shouldn’t be in the gang at all
I always thought hosea was the father figure, and Dutch and Arthur were the sons. Hoesa always got the best sides from them both, and Everytime Dutch went overboard, the only person he'd listen too was hosea, and without him, Dutch was like an angry child without discipline
Dutch: the biggest, most well written antagonist in the game. Also Dutch: Doesn’t get killed by the protagonist he has betrayed. Side note: I know Dutch is not meant to be viewed as a classic villain that wrongs/betrays the protagonist because in the end although John defeats him, John doesn’t pull the trigger on him. Dutch may not have been completely malicious at the time, but he left his two sons to their deaths and pretty much helped Micah seal Arthur’s fate. If John knew that, I doubt Dutch would’ve walked away in the end of RDR2. I wonder if John knows how Micah caused Arthur’s death to begin with. Some say that he knew but I’m not sure.
12:22 I think after this moment is when Dutch detaches from Arthur on a caring level. He admits he doesn't know what to do to Arthur but unlike Hosea, Arthur is more hard headed and expects results without the addition of understanding. In Dutch's eyes when he looks at Arthur in this moment for that new mantle of well-said wisdom that Hosea had only sees that Arthur is still a follower who sees him as a paragon who gives him purpose, not a friend on common ground. So he closes off to preserve what's left of that image and not to lose anymore esteem from Arthur then he already has and with Micah coming in afterwards with his rash but supportive plans begins to place trust in him highly because of his growing uncertainty on what to do as leader. He then see's these plans he came up with Micah as the priority as his plans always have been but when the gang starts to question it, which was likely the first time they ever highly did so, he only get's more insecure of them not having "faith" in him anymore driving him more callously paranoid.
yes there was sings in the very beginning since chapter one and if you didn’t catch them it just shows you how well rockstar written a manipulator like dutch
Dutch had a hard time adjusting to they way the world was moving , Arthur knew they were heading no where fast. Arthur was still loyal to Dutch he just had a different type of integrity. And Micah being in Dutch’s ear didn’t do him any justice .
There were signs as early as Horseshoe Overlook when Dutch says cruel stuff to Arthur. An example is the comment about Arthur being the most likely to betray him as he's reading beside his tent. The most obvious sign was getting abandoned after the meet up with Colm.
Well… It’s important to remember that Dutch already chose Micah over Hosea and Arthur before the game even started. He chose Micah’s Blackwater heist over the thing that Arthur and Hosea planned. It’s pretty clear that Micah’s brutality rubbed off on him because when he kills that girl on the ferry, they are all surprised because he’s never done something like that before. The job obviously went bad and then he neglects Micah for a bit and he goes back to listening to Hosea and Arthur. He knows he’s losing them so they go on that fishing trip and puts them in charge of finding leads in Lemoyne. Then Hosea eventually dies, now Dutch chooses to rely more on Micah because 1. Arthur is getting weaker due to the TB. 2. Arthur is openly questioning Dutch and taking matters into his own hands. 3. Micah is still strong and Dutch believes he’s still loyal. I think the better question would be: At what point did Dutch start stringing the gang along with the promise of Tahiti so he could use them for him own selfish reasons? Because you could argue it was at ANY point in the story.
Crazy part is Dutch always talking about loyalty yet he did nothing when aurthur gets captured by colm & almost killed when the whole thing was clearly a setup . Personally think dutch was gonna let john rot in prison if it wasnt for authur breaking him out . By the end Dutch is only loyal to himself while Arthur was trying to save as many people as he could before he died . Dutch just used arthur until he was no long useful which came pretty quickly once he got tb. I wonder how different things turn out if hosea never gets killed seemed like the last thing that kept Dutch in check
The Guarma mission in that cave (when Arthur says to Dutch “but you said you knew Spanish”) is the first time Arthur properly stood up to Dutch, and that is where they start to fall out I think. I don’t recall any instance where Arthur has called Dutch out in that way. I mean specifically call him out on something he’s done, not just saying “you sure about this”. Since Dutch had never experienced Arthur doing this to him, in a way it kind of distanced him from Arthur. And after that if you pay attention to the dialogue in the rest of that long ah Guarma mission, Dutch starts to question far more often Arthur’s loyalty and faith. So that’s the point where they start to fall out. Now, for the explanation of when Dutch started going crazy is way different. I think he started going crazy before the events of RDR2. He was not always crazy like people say. He turned crazy after the gang picked up Micah and failed the Blackwater ferry job. In the prologue/colter, they mention him offing an innocent woman, for seemingly no reason. That’s the main point where he abandoned his morals and started going crazy. But in the game of RDR2 he is always crazy. It’s just that he hides it good from chapter 1-4, and loses it in Guarma.
I think Hosea’s death was the moment Dutch realised the things went out of hand. After that, came John’s arrest, the moment Dutch didn’t care anymore that’s why he didn’t even try to save him. However it is, it’s like John once said to Sadie. Sadie was there to watch Dutch change, John and Arthur were there to watch Dutch showing his true face.
Chapter 1: Dutch seems optimistic and proud of everyone's resolve, despite the challenges they face fleeing Blackwater. He seems unhinged in going after the O'Driscolls when the safer move was indeed to lay low and travel further. Mistake number 1. Chapter 2: Dutch spends most of his time reading in his tent looking for false inspiration to persuade everyone to keep their spirits in following him, and his anxiety builds. He pretends to be noble and care but few are starting to see it's all been an act this whole time since he is so deeply affected and grounded, not taking action when people need him most. Mistake number 2 Chapter 3: Dutch seems more level headed, but gets greedy when Micah poses the opportunity of the plan to rob both of the families. It's odd how he seemingly doesn't care too much that Arthur almost dies at the hands of the O'Droscolls, or care about the rift he's creating in his relationship with Molly. Mistakes 3 and 4. Chapter 4: When Hosea dies, it traumatically effects them both. But not before he happens to decide to go after Bronte not long after suffering a major head injury during the trolly mission. I have no doubt the betrayal, head injury, and Micah fanning the flames all contributed to Dutch getting more unhinged after his bloodlust revenge mission to kill Bronte and go after the bank. Going after Bronte was THE last mistake that triggered a domino effect of events that followed. Chapter 5: Dutch seems more bloodthirsty in his battle on the shore of Guarma, and more convinced (probably through Micah) that John may be a rat. He's not making mistakes anymore, he's fully descended into madness. When we arrive in Lakay we can see how gone he is. Chapter 6: Dutch sees his perfect victim, and strikes at exploiting the Native American youth to manipulate. An absolute tragedy, considering one of his core creeds that he seemed to firmly believe in was equality of race, and standing up for the Native American people. Here we see has truly come full circle and as John put it "We have become, what we set out to hate" in a campfire event. When Arthur left to rescue John, it was truly OVER. Dutch turned against Arthur the MOMENT he defied him in rescuing John--as it was defiance of his control. Dutch LOOSING control was his biggest fear. So in essence, he lost his mind over loosing his power over his followers. He may not of even been mad at Arthur--but Arthur disobeying him represents anarchy amongst his most trusted and oldest gun, his 'son' his senior right hand man. He knew he lost it--it was only in the end as Arthur dies when he realized his failures
I think the turning point for Arthur was the killing of the old woman in Guarma. Him boldly stating to Dutch “.. You gonna strangle me too?” Hit so hard for me as the player, seeing him stand against dutch for the first time.
Micah - "You'll figure it out boss...you always do". That was the quote that fully showed me that Arthur had been replaced. That was Arthurs quote to Dutch in camp throughout the entire game.
Dutch not heeding Arthur’s warning after him and Jack’s run-in with Agent Milton triggered Arthur’s weariness and suspicion. Arthur knew the Law was closing in on the gang with every score and after losing Hosea, Dutch was fully consumed by greed and vengeance. (going after Colm and Cornwall for example)
I have a theory that Dutch was trying to get rid of Arthur the entire game. He wasn't going to save Arthur from Colm O'Driscoll. He might have even conspired with Micah to get rid of Arthur during that mission. Micah definitely conspired with Colm, Dutch too maybe. He ordered Arthur to go down in the swamp knowing full well that a giant alligator was there, Arthur's life was in grave danger there and Dutch didn't care. All for petty revenge. In chapter 6 it is clear that Dutch really wants Arthur gone. His plan is very convoluted but there is a plan to get money. Yet unlike other missions Arthur is in even more danger than ever before. He is tasked to steal dynamite but Micah doesn't even join them. It is truly a fools errand, a suicide mission. To steal dynamite and escape on a slow wagon. If not for Arthurs extraordinary skill and maybe some luck he would have been blown to pieces. That is what Micah was hoping for and probably Dutch too. Dutch doesn't directly try to kill Arthur but more indirectly. Like how Tywin tries to get rid of Tyrion in game of thrones. So why does Dutch do this? Partially I think that Dutch is a sociopath without empathy, he only cares about himself. You can see this with his women too like Molly, he only desires women but he doesn't care about them. But the main reason he turned on Arthur is because of blackwater. Not that Arthur did anything wrong but because Dutch lost alot of confidence from that failure. Arthur is number 2 in the gang after all, a leader, well respected and more intelligent than what many give him credit for. In his own twisted mind he sees Arthur as a threat. You might have forgotten this because this was early in the game but in the Valentine camp he tells many times that he thinks that he will betray him if you talk to him. He is surprised that Arthur didn't take Miltons deal for freedom and he seems suspicious in general. All while Dutch taking Arthur for granted. He seems to forget that without Arthur they would have died many times before considering that Arthur saves their ass in every shootout with impossible odds. They wouldn't have survived past Valentine. And basically all the money that the gang saved up throughout the game came from jobs that Dutch wasn't part of but Arthur either led or helped with. Dutch's plans was terrible throughout the entire game.
I feel like Jack becomes a bounty hunter after the game ends. In my mind, he got Sadie to teach him more about shooting and hunting a person down, so he was able to find edgar.
I think one detail you overlooked was Molly's death. Prior to that point, Dutch had conflicting opinions on Arthur, and the seeds of distrust were planted, but had Arthur not tried to convince Dutch not to kill Molly and let her go after she ratted on the gang, all faith Dutch had in Arthur's loyalty was damaged. If Arthur was willing to defend someone who had ratted on the gang, how was Dutch supposed to trust Arthur to not do the same? Though I believe Dutch's distrust in Arthur would've progressed with or without Arthur's objection to killing Molly, I believe it's the main reason Dutch goes from half-trusting to silently antagonizing him so quickly.
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The "crack" were already there even when they were still at the horseshoe overlook At one random camp conversation, dutch already called arthur as traitor sarcastically. I think it's already there and it gets bigger and bigger as the stories goes
It's the fact that he strangled a frail, defenseless old woman. Yes, she pulled a knife, but he had already taken that away. Though really, it wasn't just that isolated incident, he had already killed the woman aboard the ferry and drowned Bronte before feeding him to an alligator. He was starting to kill in cold blood on a regular basis, something he had specifically taught Arthur not to do.
Go back to this scene in chapter 1. 2:50--In Chapter 1, Arthur asks Dutch "what happened on that boat?" To which Dutch responds with "we missed you." Which tells me he blamed Arthur for the failed ferry heist, and he was at odds with Arthur since then! I peeped this on the first day i played the game, 1 day after it was released.
All I know is he started turning on Arthur before Blackwater. You can tell when the big three go fishing that they truly loved each other, but at some point, Dutch was on tilt, pursuing failing plan after failing plan, only trying to save himself. The point of no return happened before the game even started.
More people should pay better attention to the campfire conversations and read Arthur's journal. There's so much info there about what the gang and its leadership use to be. Dutch was always pretty selfish and only gave kindnesses when it ultimately benefited him (short term or long). The trolly mission was when Dutch got a concussion. He never got what little treatment might of helped, but Hosea's death was the final nail in his rational coffin. There are many details in Dutch's character that point to him being a narcissist and anyone questioning him (outside of Hosea) was off limits in his mind. I'm certain Dutch has always been out for himself, but he couldn't be by himself, that's why he always needed followers. He's a cult leader really, but in some skewed way he did love the gang. Which is why I believe he went back to find Micah, get the blackwater money, and kill Micah to take his gang (like Micah took his, so to speak). Just so happened that John showed up before Spring could break, leading Dutch into a choice rather familiar. Finally he chose to save John, and walk away from the money, ultimately getting some small measure of -- redemption.
I think there's very good evidence that Dutch has both Narcissistic Personality Disorder and is also Bipolar. Throughout the whole game we can see Dutch swinging between manic highs and depressive lows. He goes from being completely confident that everything will turn out right and singing songs or racing horses with his friends, to brooding in his tent, accusing his best friends of likely being traitors and yelling at his girlfriend. He thinks he can solve everyone's problems and is basically some kind of outlaw messiah who will user in a new world, but at the same time refuses to take personal responsibility for anything that goes wrong.
I actually think Dutch didn't even want the money when he shot micah if anything Dutch shooting Micah and walking away was a Goodbye to not only Arthur but to the man he was.
It was really Arthur who started turning on Dutch. Dutch was an outlaw through and through, and Arthur started wondering what it was all for and disobeying orders at every turn. He was right to do so, but when Dutch rode off with the money instead of going to get Marston's wife, it was exactly what you'd expect he'd do. Arthur was the one who was too grounded to stay on his get rich or die trying path.
The most important plan Arthur sabotaged with a direct disobey is breaking John out. Dutch literally said”not yet, not now, I need time and no traitor” only actual execution could clear John’s name being the rat at Saint Denis, Dutch would organise a rescue attempt at the execution with a peace of mind. Arthur would have been shot in any other gang by doubting gang leader constantly and doing things behind his back😂
Yeah thats why i play low honor so my arthur mostly cares about himself and i see dutch as a rival so i always antagonize him and barely micah since im out of camp
Bro you’re the only one in these comments that said the correct thing so far. This game gets you caught up in forgetting that you’re a gunslinging outlaw instead of a law abiding citizen. Dutch was always the same person throughout the entire game and nothing changed with him whatsoever but however when had Hosea constantly doubting Dutch and Arthur constantly doubting it made Dutch not trust his 2 right hand men and it made Dutch question himself as the leader of the gang. And so therefore Dutch started killing all of these people with power and robbing even more to prove to the gang that he wasn’t weak and he was still the most feared outlaw
Think there were signs from the opening chapter that Dutch was always a piece of sh*t. His monologue about Davie dying was utter cringe. Then his constant gas lighting of Arthur & Hosea when they were putting community safety over greed/money. This was always his way of controlling the group.
I think the actual turning point in Dutch's perception of Arthur is when he saves John. This is the first time Arthur has gone behind his back, and that is when Dutch realizes that Arthur doesn't have faith in him. The reason I think this is because Dutch always speaks to him strangely after this and rarely tells Arthur what the plans are at the moment.
Dutch didnt change at all. You see the speech from the prologue sitting in an abandoned cart or whatever in chapter 2. In chapter three, theres a very subtle scene i believe its after you get back from fushing with dutch and hosea where Dutch says "I think I, i mean we, will do good here." Something along those lines. He was always just looking out for himself. Even when milton came to arrest dutch, he acted like he was going to go but the entire gang brandished their weapons. He knew that entire gang was willing to die for him. They were human shields. The only person in the entire gang who changed at all was arthur. After he got sick he became scared of what would happen to him after he died. He beat up a sick dude, pretty much killed him, then came back and threatened to kill his son. After he got sick, everything changed. I would even go as far as to say arthur pre sickness was the worst person in the gang (yes worse than even micah.) He was the only one willing to actually work with straus, i doubt anyone else in the gang wouldve been shooting up stawberry after breaking micah out of jail. Sure, he would comment negatively about it, but deep down he still enjoyed it. Hosea was literally the only person that kept Dutch level headed (if you can even say that.)
Personally I think it was always there. Dutch has been beating himself up for the Blackwater Heist. He questions Arthur’s loyalty several times in Colter. When I played my second play through, my wife saw through Dutch immediately. “So he didn’t like any idea that isn’t his own, huh?” Made me think.
"Killed in cold blood" The lady pulled a knife on him, she's not innocent and she posed a threat to what was already a dire situation. I would've done the same. I agree with everything in this video but I see red dead fans saying this WAY too much.
Yes! Christ, this is the only move that was no risk, kill her when she is done helping and get your cash, and sense of security back. I agree. Even the alligator feeding part too, he got rid of a body, and killed a terrible man in one instance. I would also! The police would surely catch them if Bronte was let live.
Agreed. Although, I'd have held Bronte for ransom i.e. make his organization rob the bank for us and exchange Bronte for that money then take off to Australia on a chartered boat.
One of the first things Dutch said to me in Horseshoe Overlook was something like "You're going to betray me aren't you, Arthur? You are the type" as I walked by carrying a sack to Pearson's wagon. Always struck me as an odd thing to say right out of the gate after escaping the mountains when things were looking up. He also outright accuses Arthur of doubting him in Colter as they prepared to ride out to Colm's camp. Dutch was paranoid of Arthur from the very beginning. I think a better question to ask is when did Arthur start turning against Dutch. If I could pinpoint that moment, I'd say it was in the oil factory attack when Dutch left Arthur to die instead of helping him. Another relevant observation is the fact that the two most outspoken critics of Dutch, Hosea & Arthur, were not included in the Blackwater score. So, it seems Dutch was turning against both of them prior to the first scene we ever saw.
I haven’t finished the game (sudden and expensive issues with my gaming hardware) but I have a hard time believing this whole “Dutch is crazy” idea. Dutch is extremely intelligent and shows a great deal of restraint. Even the examples given in the video, like Dutch “agreeing” with Arthur and then moments later “Insists? INSISTS??” or questioning Arthur’s health to undercut his legitimate concerns. Clearly he still knows how to manipulate. Clearly he can tell who is a political threat. Clearly he knows what his goals are and has a concrete plan to accomplish them. I think a lot of players seem to forget that Arthur, Dutch, Hosea, & Co. are not good people. They are EVIL. If they lived today we’d all be cheering the FBI and SWAT on as they take them out. They murder again and again, they rob and steal, cheat, lie, kidnap, beat, threaten… The Van Der Linde Gang is full of evil people. Dutch didn’t “go crazy.” Dutch just stop pretending to be a good person, and he let his evil come through.
There is a dialogue in Chapter 2 where Dutch says Arthur at a random time that he feels like Arthur would betray him at the end. It's the most odd thinf I heard ifrom Dutch at chapter 2.
The incident with the old woman in Guarma is interesting. I always thought it was stupid of her to ask for more money. That never goes well in movies and games. Obviously it's just fiction, but I was kinda surprised that Arthur was so shocked.
He was shocked because this kill shouldnt happen. Why? Because Dutch told him to kill people who want to kill you, not to kill people you were doing business with and lied to. Dutch had agreement, he broker it and killed her. Thats why Arthur was shocked
I could of peep he never really cared cause when Arthur was sick he never asked him was ok or tell him he need to get well but instead he shows he aware his not doing well but he never told him hope u get better or take a break it was more like he just wanted to suck up all the use out of him till he couldn’t no more cause he knew Arthur was a rider even when he felt like ditch was no good
Its so sad because in chapter 6, even tho Arthur knows everything is over, he constantly tries to reason with Dutch the whole chapter, to no success and Dutch just being dismissive is sad
*did you just like your own comment?* Also, to be fair. Shes old. He couldve disarmed her and moved on. Even IF it was a justified action. Dutch’s follow up comment of “she was gonna betray us Arthur” and not “I was defending myself/us Arthur”. Goes to show he knew it was wrong.
Right after Dutch hits his head during the trolley mission, there's a mission that has Arthur and Dutch riding together away from camp. I forget what they said exactly but I sensed some tension between them both. I think that was the first real bit of tension I noticed.
I have been watching you videos for the past week while I’m at school I really enjoy them and I moved at the beginning of January and I can’t get on my ps5 because it is being moved here by some movers
There is an interaction right at the very beginning of Chapter 2, like right when you first arrive at horseshoe overlook and even before doing the saloon mission with Lenny, where if you walk past Dutch he will say something along the lines of "I think you will betray me one day Arthur, you're the type." I am on my second playthrough and he literally said it to me right after I upgraded his damn tent, I was dumbstruck. I think Dutch went mad long before the events of the game. Probably after taking in Micah and botching the Blackwater heist. He was just able to mask it until Beaver Hollow with the help of Hosea.
For sure. It can be seen as early as colter. There’s hidden dialogue of him snapping at Hosea. And I’m like wait a minute. That sounds like beaver hollow Dutch. And I thought. If Hosea was at beaver hollow that’s exactly how dutch would’ve spoken to him.
I think when Dutch and whether fell out was when John killed Micah the way John says thank you to Dutch pissed of Dutch and made him say to Arthur “I HAD A GODDAMN PLAN”
In Chapter 6, Arthur tells Sadie “it seems what began happening in Blackwater began happening years ago…” This hints that there were instances where Dutch committed atrocities or was already acting strange even before the events of Rdr2. Also in the Epilogue, John tells Sadie “You see a man who changed, I saw a man who got found out for who he truly is” This also tells us the John also noticed what Arthur did years ago. And that Dutch might have always been lying to them, and instead was nothing more than a killer like Milton said he was.
I read somewhere that the trolley crash possibly gave Dutch a concussion or minor brain damage which in turn caused his mental state to deteriorate. There's another head injury Dutch suffers when you rash the boat full of horses into the shore. That one he seems to be dizzy. This could be another turning point or more minor brain injury.
In a way, Dutch's decline is a good example of Vass' insanity quote since everytime something good happens to the van der lin gang it abruptly stops by O'Driscolls, Pinkertons, and the law, and which happens 4 times, and each time it ends the same. Until the final chapter where a different outcome but yet it feels at best bittersweet and tragic to the perspective of the gang.
I think they started falling out during and after blackwater. Arthur stated his disliking of Dutch killing that girl and back then Micah had already kind of replaced Arthur where he overided Arthurs opinion with Hosea in turn for a ferry job which led to the massacre. Hosea dying also played a role, with his advisor and reasoning gone he let his emotional side get to him siding with his supporter Micah and straying away from his doubter Arthur.
Nah it was way earlier than that. For me it was when the explosive didn't go off during the train robbery. But his descent into madness started in Blackwater when he shot that girl
Like all petty tyrants, Dutch grew paranoid, surrounded himself with yes men, and distanced himself from his real friends, blaming them for his own failures.
Having played the original back in 2010 and knowing full well what Dutch would go on to do, my impression playing through RDR2 was that Dutch was quite clearly a textbook example of a psychopath from the very beginning. I'm not a psychologist or anything, but for fun I ran what we know of Dutch, Micah and Arthur against the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. I came up with a score of 37/40 for Dutch, 36/40 for Micah and 27/40 for Arthur. A score of 30/40 or higher is the threshold for diagnosis as a psychopath in the US.
Аfter playing this game, I realized that R* makes you connect with the character. You go through everything with Arthur and start to see him as someone you know or respect. While playing as Arthur, I couldn’t imagine having low honor or doing dishonorable things. His character compels you to be a good person, and it doesn’t feel natural to go around killing people, robbing them, etc. That’s more like Micah. In Arthur’s final mission, I chose to help John. In Arthur’s last moments, I started reflecting on my own life. It inspired me to live with great honor. Just like him.
The saddest part is I feel like, through the whole story, Arthur and Hosea were the only two who DID have Dutch’s back. They wanted what was best for him and the gang the whole time
They were the real heart of the gang. With them both gone, so was the Van Der Linde gang.
Can't forget Miss Grimshaw
When Hosea was about to die I thought the game was going to launch me into deadeye. It hurt a lot when he got shot and I couldn’t save him. I was basically too shocked to speak.
@@theoutsiderjess1869 Can* forget. 🗿
sad part is Dutch was so delusional that anyone who questions his plans was seen as disloyal, when Micah usurped Hosea's position as number 2 instead of it going to Arthur he was able to sow seeds of discord
When Dutch didn't even try to go recue Arthur after Colm took him. That was the first sign.
I was just thinking about that and the fact that he kept sending Arthur on those dummy missions to get killed
He didnt even know he was kidnapped dummy
Yeah I kinda thought that Dutch set him up there
@@SkilletToast Micah did
@@jongual7112 it was pearson's idea
Hosea dying was ultimately the beginning of the dying process of the gang. Without Hosea, Micah was able to snake his way into Dutch's psyche to get him to do dumb stuff to raise his bounty. Ultimately Micah's plan was to take Dutch to the highest bounty possible then turn Dutch in. That is why at the end of RDR2 the pinkertons showed up after Dutch shot and John killed Micah. The plan I think was Micah was going to meet with Dutch and then the pinkertons show up and thats when Dutch is taken in, then Micah runs off with the blackwater and the bounty for Dutch money.
Spot on
Spot on. But I really doubt Micah would've gotten free. I'm sure Ross was using him like he used john in red dead 1
@@israelruiz8706 Maybe if they're able to find something or someone Micah loves, for them to hold hostage. In which case it would probably be his money if he is unable hide it, or his two revolvers that he went to hell and back to retrieve from Strawberry. 🤣🤣
I dont recall pinkertons showing up on the last mission
@@lucajkx5023 In the credits you can see Agent Ross walking in Micah's camp and inspecting his body.
I honestly think Dutch was always crazy. Bcz in the beginning of the game Javier claimed Dutch killed a girl in a bad way and based on what Arthur said, it was Dutch and Micah's plan to do so. So ever since hearing that I had just the slightest bit of foreshadowing that Dutch was always somewhat not all there
Pretty sure Mr grim reaper the strange man said somthin about it in rdr1
@@betterconsole I'm just saying he's never shown the craziness until now. Always thought about it but never followed through with his psychotic ways. Just my thought
@@wolfder6661he did, he said her name was Heidi McCourt
I agree. I think it’s a case of Micah’s brutal methods rubbing off onto Dutch. They become increasingly more desperate and in desperate situations it’s easier to cut corners so to speak. Still though, he’s a POS for leaving Arthur to die, TWICE. Three times if you count the Odriscoll kidnapping.
Agreed, i think Dutch always had that type of person in him but the more things fell out his control the less he could help himself
He never turned against Arthur. That would imply he was on Arthur's side to begin with.
We even see in the very beginning of the game, if Arthur or anyone else slightly questions Dutch, Dutch guilts them or uses some other manipulation tactic to get them to stop.
The only one who could keep him in check was Hosea, but otherwise, Dutch looked out for Dutch and he loved to be the king of his little band of misfits.
This theory is so dumb
what theory?
@@dolepeaches6500
@@dolepeaches6500 nah, dutch was always a sociopath & narcissist. hosea kept him grounded but when he died it was only a matter of time
@@aiden-sy3ex I’m not gonna get in a heated debate again with somebody and call them retarded and hear the same lines over and over again when they don’t add up.
Hosea could hardly keep him in check. Dutch argues with him in chapter 1, by getting mad at Hosea who was simply concerned for everyone's safety
Then there's dutch ordering to rob cornwall when Hosea strongly opposed
Attacking and killing bronte when Hosea strongly opposed
And there's camp interactions where Hosea shares sentiments that Arthur took 5 chapters to start feeling. He even tells John early in chapter 2 he should think of his family and leave with them if things go south. He knew dutch couldnt be stopped (& that hosea himself didnt have much time left)
I think you're pretty spot on about the Lakay "chess move" scene and Arthur rescuing John, being the times we see them butting heads, but I honestly think the root is ultimately Hosea's death.
Arthur+Dutch+Hosea were the original gang. Collectively they were the leaders of the gang, each holding a role. Dutch the charismatic "planner" and personality figurehead of the gang, Arthur as the muscle, protector and heavy hitter, and Hosea as the anchor, voice of reason and the one who took the "grand plans" and actually made them reasonable and workable.
Though I hate to say it, because Hosea is so likable, he also kinda kept Arthur "in his place." If you replay the game, keeping an eye out for it, there are many many times when Hosea "teasingly" tears Arthur down and reminds him that Arthur is the muscle and not brains of the operation. We also often see Hosea question Dutch and pulling Dutch down to earth with reason and concerns. We also often see Hosea encouraging Arthur not to worry or think about things too much and just trust that Dutch will get them through.
Ultimately, Hosea was very much a mediator and glue that help Arthur and Dutch together. After Hosea dies both of them are very shaken up and full of doubts about the future. They also both try to find ways to fill the void Hosea's death left behind. Arthur feels the need to fill Hosea's shoes in holding Dutch accountable and bringing him down to earth, concerning the real threats and needs of the gang. The whole "what about the women" line ect. Dutch starts looking for ways to keep people trusting him, in their place, while struggling to enact his "grand plans" into something grounded and actually effective.
Neither Dutch nor Arthur can fill the void Hosea has left. They both stumble and fail and they see one another stumbling and failing, which erodes their trust and confidence in one another even more.
So if I were to point to one root moment where the bond between Arthur and Dutch really starts to break, I'd say it was Hosea's death, even though Arthur and Dutch don't really interact with one another during that event.
very insightful and good read. nice one 👍👍
I ain't reading all that
@@Gfre12334fdc lazy
@@Gfre12334fdc you should
Perfect👌
There is a very interesting dialog between Sadie and John on the Epilog, in which they both theorize that the Dutch they knew (Peaceful, generous and empathic) never existed. It was just a disguise to hide his truly devious personality.
It's actually a very believable theory and I don't see people talking about it much.
To be honest, just like John and Sadie, I believe that Dutch was always a manipulative Sociopath. He just slowly revealed his true colors as the years went by.
I think The Professional said something similar in his analysis video as well
You can only wear a Mask for so long, before it starts to become itchy & you have to take it off.. Even, if it's only Briefly. So, yes.. I would have to agree.. He never was whom he portrayed himself to be.
When I started playing RDR2 for the first time, I never liked Dutch . He seemed so manipulative to me, and I was right
There’s a similar sentiment from Arthur on the ride from the Oil Refinery to Wapiti (with a wounded Eagle Flies).
It’s when he talks about the Indians being used by Dutch and reflects that Dutch likely used him and the rest of the gang in the same way. Dutch was always using the gang to further his own goals, at the expense of their safety.
It’s why Dutch chooses desperate people to groom into his cult.
@@baraalhm2455 you knew from the start huh? you're quite perseptive
Ppl talked about Dutch changing when he hit his head robbing the trolly station but there is something he says as soon as you start chapter 3 after you chase down those criminals that escaped and after you Dutch and Hosea go fishing....as soon as the boat docks Dutch sits back and says "I think I .....I mean we are gonna be ok" it's a little thing but it shows that Dutch always only ever cared about Dutch
I’ve always assumed that the head injury was the final catalyst to Dutch cracking. Brain damage plus the trauma of Hosea dying could’ve taken away what little was holding him back from being 100% crazy.
@diabeticmonkey Brain damage can remove inhibitions, that compounded with Hosea's death removing the gangs Moral compass lead to Dutch revealing his self-serving attitude
@@diabeticmonkeyhe acted so different after that’s the crazy part
Dutch probably has narcissistic personality disorder from the get go, pretty sure he sees Arthur, John, Hosea and his other favorites as extensions of him self, He probably does care to some extent but he does take priority.
Hosea was the closest thing to a therapist Dutch was ever going to see, Micha was the opposite of that.
@@mikeb5063 Bipolar could be likely as well, The trolley thing just seems so minor, I mean arthur literally gets shotgunned in a cutscene and he just lives as the odriscals ride with him hogtied. And lives. Dutch just bumps his head, and lives idk man the gameplay too always falling off buildings and other goofy stuff.
edit: forget to mention yeah i agree 100%
For me it started before the gang killed Bronte. On their way to the swamp to meet Thomas and Jules he says to Arthur that Micah is the only one left with any loyalty
I too was going to say chapter 4.
It started before then even in Chapter 1 ge thought Arthur of all people wasn't loyal
But that didn’t come out of nowhere, it was built up since the beginning of the game. Dutch killing that girl during the Blackwater Heist for no reason shows that has been changing the whole time
An interesting part about that conversation is that if you listen to the whole thing, Arthur points out to Dutch how he’s been by his side for 20 years, causing Dutch to realise if even just for a moment how truly loyal Arthur is, and then he goes on to tell Arthur how it’s just everything that’s been going on and him feeling as though everybody is doubting him, that is wearing him down, causing him to act the way he is.
This is the moment Dutch turned into HeisenLinde
Impresivly unfunny
This is the moment Dutch turned into Cornwall
Bravo Vince 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
@Howsthedaybays to me, Dutch had me questioning his leadership when he thought he was able to outsmart the Gray's and Braithwaites. Hosea was still alive, and even then, he wasn't willing to listen to any logic or reasoning and would ignore anyone that told him otherwise because he needed "them (the gang members) WITH him not AGAINST him (his literal words)
He was always a narcissist and a hypocrite, but it took me a while to see it until I played the main story a few more times. Like the video creator said, Dutch just wanted blind loyalty, rather than just loyalty. A competent leader would have hopefully tried to think more about what's best for everyone and not just himself or his ego. He saw himself as more as a Robinhood character, but in reality he was just a dark and fucked up dude who was a power hungry outlaw who would kill in cold blood, no questions asked if you even looked at him the wrong way.
@@Xavier_Breaking_BadEven after they clearly blew their cover he still tried one last job for the grays, and we all know how that worked out
When Dutch randomly says he thinks Arthur will be the one to betray him because he seems the type, he sounded very bitter in hindsight and back in Chapter 3 at that. It's one of those things you don't pay attention to, except when you look back at it.
It wasn't until Arthur's death that Dutch realized how wrong he was even about his betrayal
@@theoutsiderjess1869
Even then, he thought John betrayed him until John gets through to him. Only then, does he actually realize that Micah was the rat all along. The fact that they exchange a glance and let each other go was more than proof of that, John could've shot him if he wanted to but he was just there for Micah.
Ironically enough I remember in my play through, Dutch said this to Arthur in chapter 2. It certainly raised my eyebrow
@@jordyalmonte42i spent a LOT of time in each chapter and got this interaction in chp 2 as well. i already knew dutch was shady or at least ends up being bad but i definitely was like "oh okay bitch i see how it is" when that happened. dutch is really your classic manipulator, charming and good with his words, and he takes in people from mostly rough backgrounds who have little else to rely on or live for. he cares about others for as long as they make him feel good
dont pay attention? Arthur is Dutchs executioner and was basically raised by him, so that moment in chapter 2 when dutch drops that bomb about arthur betraying him in the end because hes the type is a real wtf moment. even arthur reacts like that if you let him.
Theres some potential of Kieran: the last member of the gang, one of the least influenced by dutch and more than likely had some kinda affect on arthur. Him saying about Dutch and Colm being alike is something we think about afterwards. I feel like dutch found out and probably decided not to look for him, even tho he could have spilled to the odriscolls about the new camp location.
I think Kieran's innocence really was his downfall because I believed he went back to the O'Driscolls thinking that all would be forgiven considering he was forced to go with Dutch and the gang and ultimately was considered a traitor by the O'Driscolls and brutally tortured and executed after giving the whereabouts of Dutch's hideout. Kieran was too innocent and trusting for the gang life and it caught up with him.
@@10171981 doubt he went back when we look at what he said about the odriscolls
@@10171981 arthur tries to kick him out with kieran saying if he goes back to them he will be killed to arthur letting him stay in. at no point did it seam like he wanted to go back to colm in my opinion.
@@10171981 He says at Jack's party joining the gang turned out to to be the best thing he'd ever done, no way in hell he went back to them lol they kidnapped him probably at some point after, or even during, the party at Shady Belle.
@@10171981Kieran dies when Jack is saved and everyone gets drunk. Kieran gets wasted, wanders into the forrest and most likely gets snatched by the O’Driscolls
What’s funny is, it wasn’t a problem when Micah was broken out, but it was a problem when John was broken out. Dutch was definitely changing over time
Big difference from a small jailhouse to a fucking prison
@@JohnnymarstonNegsarthur right because breaking someone out a city jail where you massacred and shouted out Arthur’s name the entire way was much better than a prison break.
@@Dontizzle24 You realize that Sisika was way more dangerous that a fucking town made out of just straight wood with mediocre lawmen
@@JohnnymarstonNegsarthur and do you realize the jail break in strawberry put more eyes on them than the prison break ? It was a small town that got massacred. Micah was literally screaming Arthur’s name the entire time of the mission which means he was implicating his accomplice lol. And the guy he broke out was the person who ended up working with the Pinkertons.
@@Dontizzle24 To be fair, the fact that he was screaming Arthur's name doesn't matter all too much because pretty much everyone in earshot was killed. Witnesses who did survive were hightailing it and could likely only provide a vague description.
Dutch didn't turn against Arthur, he turned against himself as most of the principles that Arthur knows was taught by Dutch.
During my 2nd playthrough of the game where I put over 200 hours slowly navigating Arthurs story and enjoying every moment. I heavily critiqued the unrealistic and cartoonish decline of Dutch, towards the end of the game. His rapid advancement from emphatic leader to crazed narcissist always felt unbelievable to me.
It took until my third playthrough to realise how perfectly Rockstar did it. We see everything through the eyes of Arthur, we see the community and family, Dutch has grown. We hear the stories of his greatness. We are led to believe he changes in the game. When in truth he just becomes worse at hiding his true intentions.
He is always planning tactics, reading about rebellion and toting values on others. He views the gang as pawns even if he doesn't realise it. Only seeing their love when it represents in unfaltering loyalty. As his family fails, he finds refuge in Micah who butters him up and brings him vultures who want nothing more than to benefit from his downfall. He mocks Arthur because he doesnt see him as a son but as a traitor. He only values unquestionable loyalty. Seeing his gang as an army. Even Eagle Flies is used as a soldier in a war the natives cant win. Dutch isnt high class but he so desperately wants to be viewed as an equal among them.
He kills Angelo when he mocks Dutch. He kills Cornwall when he is cornered and outsmarted too. Wanting nothing more than to bite back and seem strong.
Only in the end, when Arthur lays dying, is Dutch able to see his foolishness and snap out of his delusion. To see that the loyalty they showed him was more than he deserved. It wasn't the tram crash or the deaths or any of that. Dutch just saw the world one way.
In the end, only when he is exposed as a fool. Does he begin to see the real enemy, eventually resulting in him killing Micah. Although he still remains broken and bitter. Leading to the desperate and callous RDR1 Dutch.
This is put perfectly! I just realized this, too. Dutch just veiws the gang as a means to an end, and he will say whatever he needs to get that. However, the loss of Hosea and Micah being in his ear excelorates his loss pf composer.
no, he changed. it was micah, all the death around him started to take its toll on him, expecially the death of hosea, the council. and micah was the biggest factor. im tired of people think he didnt change he just couldent hide his intentions. he did change. change. not intentions. CHANGE.
Hell, Dutch casually accused my Arthur of betrayal as early as Act 2 in camp. It seemed really out of place at the time, so I thought maybe it was a glitch.
I have seen in my plays many places where Dutch started turning on Arthur. I feel it started after they got back from Guarma and he had the time to process the death of Hosea and Lenny. I think it set deep when he found a new face to manipulate in Eagle Flies and the tribe's young men. The nail in the coffin so to speak was when he insisted that John be removed from the gang and then again at Cornwall's business as he walked away from Arthur. That's my theory anyway.
I think when Micah said told Dutch that they were possibly going to have a "truce" with the O'Driscoll's and wanted Arthur to be the sniper and lookout on the mountain. They pretty much left Arthur Morgan to die with the O'Driscoll's, but he escaped and survived. When Arthur asked, "You guys were going to SAVE ME weren't you"? My gut feeling was like...oh my god! They were REALLY going to leave him to die and might have even KNOWN that it was a set up and was perfectly content on letting it happen anyway! Another time is when they got the boat to kill the Italian boss and Dutch told Arthur to go get the guy being attacked by the Super Croc. Dutch didn't exactly move that quick on the trigger to save Arthur! Dutch would rather have Arthur die "in battle" rather than potentially have a political fallout if Arthur leaves due to not going along with Dutch and his plans.
Someone pointed out that you can make the case of Arthur usually always wandering of on his own after because he leaves camp way too often. It's only when you take too long they will send someone (Bill) to look for you and that happened in game.
Dutch know damn well that Arthur is the heart and workhorse of the gang if Arthur dies in battle he becomes a martyr he can use his death to inspire the gang. However if Arthur is alive and will betray him he knows that Everyone will go with him. Finally he replaces him with Micah as dutch not only doesn't have a plan, he is unwilling to play the charismatic father figure much longer, he wants soemone to feed his ego he wants to her hear he is a genius and not that plan is awful
@@Bestow3000true but Arthur is the only one working so they don't have an issue with him leaving, they also send charles and javier
@@theoutsiderjess1869 I can hear it now ! If Arthur would have died, Dutch would be like "you know what Arthur would have wanted" and pretty much use that line EVERY time it was Dutch's idea but everyone did not want to go through with that plan of Dutch's. Just to get the gang to blindly follow Dutch without question.
Who was getting attacked by the bullgator?
i noticed immediately after robbing the train station, in the mission where you go to lakay when your riding there with dutch he talks about hosea losing his spine and eventually says micah is the only one he can rely on anymore.
"Well at least MICAH goes along with me and doesn't QUESTION everything I do" -Dutch talking to Arthur. 🙂
Well I remember Dutch saying to Arthur he will betray him eventually. Which was a really akward moment for me. I had a forshadowing since then. And in the end we all knew he eventually does betray at least John in RDR1.
I've had that happen too. It happens all the way back in Chapter 2! It's a random camp interaction. I was just casually walking by Dutch's tent, and he blurts out "I think you'll end up betraying me one day, Arthur" (or something to that effect). It's so out of the blue, especially as during Chapter 2 Arthur is still pretty blindly loyal to Dutch. It just shows how Dutch was so paranoid about being betrayed, even early on, that he saw signs of it when they weren't really there, and manifested it himself with his own behaviour.
@@emilyprice178 yes that was during the Rhodes act. I don't remember when exactly but remember it was the lake side camp. Yeah it was really strange saying it to Arthur who was still the most loyal to him.
@@kamikazestryker I had it happen at the Horseshoe Overlook camp.
8:30 id also like to add another reason of why he killed Bronte like that is because of his position. Dutch is a narcissist and they are known for being very insecure. Dutch knew that Brontë was someone who is superior and is above Dutch in many ways due to his wealth, status, and place in society. Because of Brontë being more superior, Dutch knew he couldn’t reason with him and get into his head like he did to colm odriscol who is someone that’s inferior to Dutch, so the only way he felt he could deal with him is to murder him in cold blood out of rage, jealousy, and fear. He didthe same thing to Cornwall, another man who’s superior and has high status and Dutch instead of reasoning with him he murdered him
However, Cornwall and Brontë are the same as Dutch. So no one really loses on the end
Dutch turned on Arthur when he gave him his back just to let him get killed. Other previous events are examples of Dutch's behaviour with people like John, who let him in jail as a replaceable element of his gang and because of his deep hate for John knowing how he constantly disagrees with him. Or Dutch questioning Arthur's loyalty due to the moments Arthur doesn't agree with him
I started replaying the game for the third time recently, mainly for the secrets and missions I never completed but once I got to chapter 6, I experienced something I never have before. I was out looking for a certain bridge trying to find the serial killer and Bill rides up from out of nowhere saying something like "Dutch has been real worried, you've been gone a while and wants you back. You coming?". I don't know whether this happens in other chapters or not, this was the first time I saw it, but the fact that Dutch sent Bill out to look for Arthur really drives home how paranoid he gets towards the end of the main game. In the other chapters, you could spend forever doing whatever but once chapter 6 hit, once the fear of betrayal set in and once the fallout began, Dutch sends out Bill to look for Arthur. It's almost hypocritical, Dutch goes on about faith yet he doesn't have faith in Arthur and the fact he gets Bill to do it, or possibly even another gang member, says a lot about how he perceives himself. Why didn't Dutch go looking for Arthur if he was so concerned? No. Instead, he has the members do it instead like tools or accessories which is something you see throughout the ENTIRE game. Rdr2 is an insanely detailed game from the main plot, to small mysteries found at the very edge of the map that people are still trying to resolve and the fact I can write a whole damn paragraph on ONE encounter really proves how good this game is. I think Dutch needed therapy. A lot of it.
If you stay away from camp for extended periods of time somebody will come looking for you. Ive had several different people come looking.
Yeah ive had charles show up randomly while i was near pleasance during chapter 3 and tell me hes been tracking me for days.
I had Javier come after me once too
Buddy, this can happens in any chapter
The signs were there since chapter 1 he is always asking Arthur if he is doubting him or going to question him like hosea. Which is odd as Arthur defends Dutch in these chapter like a loyal son. It got worse by chapter 4 and guarma it wasn't until things completely gone to shit that. Dutch started to antagonize Arthur as Arthur finally became his own man and that upset Dutch cause if Arthur was healthy the whole gang outside of micah, bill and javier would have left with him
I think if javier knows what dutch and micah is doing he will side with arthuro
@@gamerepic700 Dutch saved his life he is wanted in a whole other country. It would be hard for anyone to turn their back on a man who saved them from a bad spot and wasnt racist. Which is why Javier kept his gun pointed down he is conflicted he believes John and Arthur however his loyalty to Dutch is just as strong.
This game is still a king
You should do a breakdown of Arthur's journal.
👀….i like that idea!
I’ve been having this theory, where back in Saint Denis, after the bank robbery, Dutch hits his head badly, and I think that, along with Hosea’s passing, really messed him up, and throughout the game from that point you can see Dutch rubbing his head where it was hit, even in cutscenes. You can mess with this theory however you’d like, this is just something I’ve took notice in my second play through.
There is that mission with the trolley that crashes after the failed coach station robbery. Dutch mentions in that mission he took a blow to the head and is "seeing three of everything." And from that point forward things with dutch get far worse far quicker. I fully believe that blow to the gead really negatively affected Dutch.
The spot he started to turn is just before the pinkertons offered everyone their freedom if arthur gave up dutch and dutch asked "why didn't you take the offer?". He was already considering betraying arthur then and there cause it appears had he got that same offer he would have given up arthur.
Bro I found your channel two days ago before I started my RDR2 replay, and I gotta say I am binging and loving your videos.
The quality and the detail is impeccable, keep doing great work!
Aye thats awesome to hear! Im glad youre enjoying the content. What number play through are you on?
@@CynicGTA 3rd, I played on my PS4 years ago, and now that I bought a PC I knew it was time for a new playthrough.
The game is better than ever.
i always felt he was a little off but Hosea was the calming level headed voice in Dutch’s life. Thats why he was Dutch’s right hand man. and when Dutch followed his ideas and plans things went smoothly. Whereas things went wrong because he had Micha in his ear a lot. Such as the Trolly robbery and the bank job, Hosea was against it but it was Micha pushing for the job. When Arthur got sick his thoughts started to change. Arthur was more so connected to Hosea because he spent so much time taking from Hosea. Arthur was a combination of Dutch and Hosea. So with Hosea death and Arthur being sick and having a change of heart, Micha was all he had a guy that shouldn’t be in the gang at all
I always thought hosea was the father figure, and Dutch and Arthur were the sons. Hoesa always got the best sides from them both, and Everytime Dutch went overboard, the only person he'd listen too was hosea, and without him, Dutch was like an angry child without discipline
I always like this momment with Dutch tone changed John ? insist ?:D
Dutch: the biggest, most well written antagonist in the game.
Also Dutch: Doesn’t get killed by the protagonist he has betrayed.
Side note: I know Dutch is not meant to be viewed as a classic villain that wrongs/betrays the protagonist because in the end although John defeats him, John doesn’t pull the trigger on him. Dutch may not have been completely malicious at the time, but he left his two sons to their deaths and pretty much helped Micah seal Arthur’s fate. If John knew that, I doubt Dutch would’ve walked away in the end of RDR2. I wonder if John knows how Micah caused Arthur’s death to begin with. Some say that he knew but I’m not sure.
12:22 I think after this moment is when Dutch detaches from Arthur on a caring level. He admits he doesn't know what to do to Arthur but unlike Hosea, Arthur is more hard headed and expects results without the addition of understanding. In Dutch's eyes when he looks at Arthur in this moment for that new mantle of well-said wisdom that Hosea had only sees that Arthur is still a follower who sees him as a paragon who gives him purpose, not a friend on common ground. So he closes off to preserve what's left of that image and not to lose anymore esteem from Arthur then he already has and with Micah coming in afterwards with his rash but supportive plans begins to place trust in him highly because of his growing uncertainty on what to do as leader. He then see's these plans he came up with Micah as the priority as his plans always have been but when the gang starts to question it, which was likely the first time they ever highly did so, he only get's more insecure of them not having "faith" in him anymore driving him more callously paranoid.
yes there was sings in the very beginning since chapter one and if you didn’t catch them it just shows you how well rockstar written a manipulator like dutch
Dutch had a hard time adjusting to they way the world was moving , Arthur knew they were heading no where fast. Arthur was still loyal to Dutch he just had a different type of integrity. And Micah being in Dutch’s ear didn’t do him any justice .
There were signs as early as Horseshoe Overlook when Dutch says cruel stuff to Arthur. An example is the comment about Arthur being the most likely to betray him as he's reading beside his tent. The most obvious sign was getting abandoned after the meet up with Colm.
Well… It’s important to remember that Dutch already chose Micah over Hosea and Arthur before the game even started. He chose Micah’s Blackwater heist over the thing that Arthur and Hosea planned. It’s pretty clear that Micah’s brutality rubbed off on him because when he kills that girl on the ferry, they are all surprised because he’s never done something like that before. The job obviously went bad and then he neglects Micah for a bit and he goes back to listening to Hosea and Arthur. He knows he’s losing them so they go on that fishing trip and puts them in charge of finding leads in Lemoyne. Then Hosea eventually dies, now Dutch chooses to rely more on Micah because
1. Arthur is getting weaker due to the TB.
2. Arthur is openly questioning Dutch and taking matters into his own hands.
3. Micah is still strong and Dutch believes he’s still loyal.
I think the better question would be: At what point did Dutch start stringing the gang along with the promise of Tahiti so he could use them for him own selfish reasons? Because you could argue it was at ANY point in the story.
Crazy part is Dutch always talking about loyalty yet he did nothing when aurthur gets captured by colm & almost killed when the whole thing was clearly a setup . Personally think dutch was gonna let john rot in prison if it wasnt for authur breaking him out . By the end Dutch is only loyal to himself while Arthur was trying to save as many people as he could before he died . Dutch just used arthur until he was no long useful which came pretty quickly once he got tb. I wonder how different things turn out if hosea never gets killed seemed like the last thing that kept Dutch in check
No actually almost everyone betrayed Dutch in the end that’s why he didn’t really give a fuck about who stayed and who left the gang
The Guarma mission in that cave (when Arthur says to Dutch “but you said you knew Spanish”) is the first time Arthur properly stood up to Dutch, and that is where they start to fall out I think.
I don’t recall any instance where Arthur has called Dutch out in that way. I mean specifically call him out on something he’s done, not just saying “you sure about this”.
Since Dutch had never experienced Arthur doing this to him, in a way it kind of distanced him from Arthur. And after that if you pay attention to the dialogue in the rest of that long ah Guarma mission, Dutch starts to question far more often Arthur’s loyalty and faith.
So that’s the point where they start to fall out. Now, for the explanation of when Dutch started going crazy is way different. I think he started going crazy before the events of RDR2. He was not always crazy like people say. He turned crazy after the gang picked up Micah and failed the Blackwater ferry job. In the prologue/colter, they mention him offing an innocent woman, for seemingly no reason. That’s the main point where he abandoned his morals and started going crazy.
But in the game of RDR2 he is always crazy. It’s just that he hides it good from chapter 1-4, and loses it in Guarma.
I think Hosea’s death was the moment Dutch realised the things went out of hand. After that, came John’s arrest, the moment Dutch didn’t care anymore that’s why he didn’t even try to save him. However it is, it’s like John once said to Sadie. Sadie was there to watch Dutch change, John and Arthur were there to watch Dutch showing his true face.
Chapter 1: Dutch seems optimistic and proud of everyone's resolve, despite the challenges they face fleeing Blackwater. He seems unhinged in going after the O'Driscolls when the safer move was indeed to lay low and travel further. Mistake number 1.
Chapter 2: Dutch spends most of his time reading in his tent looking for false inspiration to persuade everyone to keep their spirits in following him, and his anxiety builds. He pretends to be noble and care but few are starting to see it's all been an act this whole time since he is so deeply affected and grounded, not taking action when people need him most. Mistake number 2
Chapter 3: Dutch seems more level headed, but gets greedy when Micah poses the opportunity of the plan to rob both of the families. It's odd how he seemingly doesn't care too much that Arthur almost dies at the hands of the O'Droscolls, or care about the rift he's creating in his relationship with Molly. Mistakes 3 and 4.
Chapter 4: When Hosea dies, it traumatically effects them both. But not before he happens to decide to go after Bronte not long after suffering a major head injury during the trolly mission. I have no doubt the betrayal, head injury, and Micah fanning the flames all contributed to Dutch getting more unhinged after his bloodlust revenge mission to kill Bronte and go after the bank. Going after Bronte was THE last mistake that triggered a domino effect of events that followed.
Chapter 5: Dutch seems more bloodthirsty in his battle on the shore of Guarma, and more convinced (probably through Micah) that John may be a rat. He's not making mistakes anymore, he's fully descended into madness. When we arrive in Lakay we can see how gone he is.
Chapter 6: Dutch sees his perfect victim, and strikes at exploiting the Native American youth to manipulate. An absolute tragedy, considering one of his core creeds that he seemed to firmly believe in was equality of race, and standing up for the Native American people. Here we see has truly come full circle and as John put it "We have become, what we set out to hate" in a campfire event. When Arthur left to rescue John, it was truly OVER. Dutch turned against Arthur the MOMENT he defied him in rescuing John--as it was defiance of his control. Dutch LOOSING control was his biggest fear. So in essence, he lost his mind over loosing his power over his followers. He may not of even been mad at Arthur--but Arthur disobeying him represents anarchy amongst his most trusted and oldest gun, his 'son' his senior right hand man.
He knew he lost it--it was only in the end as Arthur dies when he realized his failures
I think the turning point for Arthur was the killing of the old woman in Guarma. Him boldly stating to Dutch “.. You gonna strangle me too?” Hit so hard for me as the player, seeing him stand against dutch for the first time.
You could see the signs at the very start of the game when he speaks to Charles:
“Get indoors, son! I- *we* need you strong.”
Micah - "You'll figure it out boss...you always do".
That was the quote that fully showed me that Arthur had been replaced. That was Arthurs quote to Dutch in camp throughout the entire game.
Dutch not heeding Arthur’s warning after him and Jack’s run-in with Agent Milton triggered Arthur’s weariness and suspicion.
Arthur knew the Law was closing in on the gang with every score and after losing Hosea, Dutch was fully consumed by greed and vengeance.
(going after Colm and Cornwall for example)
I have a theory that Dutch was trying to get rid of Arthur the entire game. He wasn't going to save Arthur from Colm O'Driscoll. He might have even conspired with Micah to get rid of Arthur during that mission. Micah definitely conspired with Colm, Dutch too maybe. He ordered Arthur to go down in the swamp knowing full well that a giant alligator was there, Arthur's life was in grave danger there and Dutch didn't care. All for petty revenge.
In chapter 6 it is clear that Dutch really wants Arthur gone. His plan is very convoluted but there is a plan to get money. Yet unlike other missions Arthur is in even more danger than ever before. He is tasked to steal dynamite but Micah doesn't even join them. It is truly a fools errand, a suicide mission. To steal dynamite and escape on a slow wagon. If not for Arthurs extraordinary skill and maybe some luck he would have been blown to pieces. That is what Micah was hoping for and probably Dutch too. Dutch doesn't directly try to kill Arthur but more indirectly. Like how Tywin tries to get rid of Tyrion in game of thrones.
So why does Dutch do this? Partially I think that Dutch is a sociopath without empathy, he only cares about himself. You can see this with his women too like Molly, he only desires women but he doesn't care about them. But the main reason he turned on Arthur is because of blackwater. Not that Arthur did anything wrong but because Dutch lost alot of confidence from that failure. Arthur is number 2 in the gang after all, a leader, well respected and more intelligent than what many give him credit for. In his own twisted mind he sees Arthur as a threat. You might have forgotten this because this was early in the game but in the Valentine camp he tells many times that he thinks that he will betray him if you talk to him. He is surprised that Arthur didn't take Miltons deal for freedom and he seems suspicious in general.
All while Dutch taking Arthur for granted. He seems to forget that without Arthur they would have died many times before considering that Arthur saves their ass in every shootout with impossible odds. They wouldn't have survived past Valentine. And basically all the money that the gang saved up throughout the game came from jobs that Dutch wasn't part of but Arthur either led or helped with. Dutch's plans was terrible throughout the entire game.
I feel like Jack becomes a bounty hunter after the game ends. In my mind, he got Sadie to teach him more about shooting and hunting a person down, so he was able to find edgar.
I think one detail you overlooked was Molly's death. Prior to that point, Dutch had conflicting opinions on Arthur, and the seeds of distrust were planted, but had Arthur not tried to convince Dutch not to kill Molly and let her go after she ratted on the gang, all faith Dutch had in Arthur's loyalty was damaged. If Arthur was willing to defend someone who had ratted on the gang, how was Dutch supposed to trust Arthur to not do the same?
Though I believe Dutch's distrust in Arthur would've progressed with or without Arthur's objection to killing Molly, I believe it's the main reason Dutch goes from half-trusting to silently antagonizing him so quickly.
I'm a big fan of your content and finally got around to subscribing. You have been an inspiration for my channel. Whenever I'm drained and need motivation i seem to find one of your videos , watch it, then i'm energized and focused to get going on another production. Keep up the great stuff!
The "crack" were already there even when they were still at the horseshoe overlook
At one random camp conversation, dutch already called arthur as traitor sarcastically.
I think it's already there and it gets bigger and bigger as the stories goes
He randomly chews you out as if you were stalking and going to harm him. It was bizarre but makes sense that he was always unhinged.
I’m 2 seconds in and I can already think of multiple incidents where you can see them distancing from each other
I think the biggest twist that shows Dutch had kinda lost it with Arthur was just being willing to let him die.
14:47--My favorite line from John in RDR1 is "you always have a plan, Dutch."
Arthur looks so ridiculous with maxed out beard lol
10:40 I never understood how killing this old lady that pulled a knife on Dutch was such a big deal tbh. Maybe I’m desensitized
It's the fact that he strangled a frail, defenseless old woman. Yes, she pulled a knife, but he had already taken that away. Though really, it wasn't just that isolated incident, he had already killed the woman aboard the ferry and drowned Bronte before feeding him to an alligator. He was starting to kill in cold blood on a regular basis, something he had specifically taught Arthur not to do.
Go back to this scene in chapter 1.
2:50--In Chapter 1, Arthur asks Dutch "what happened on that boat?" To which Dutch responds with "we missed you." Which tells me he blamed Arthur for the failed ferry heist, and he was at odds with Arthur since then! I peeped this on the first day i played the game, 1 day after it was released.
Dutch's actor did such a wonderful job. He could turn on that superficial charm and when Dutch gets mad, it can get legitimately terrifying.
This is the moment Dutch became Heisenberg.
All I know is he started turning on Arthur before Blackwater. You can tell when the big three go fishing that they truly loved each other, but at some point, Dutch was on tilt, pursuing failing plan after failing plan, only trying to save himself. The point of no return happened before the game even started.
More people should pay better attention to the campfire conversations and read Arthur's journal. There's so much info there about what the gang and its leadership use to be.
Dutch was always pretty selfish and only gave kindnesses when it ultimately benefited him (short term or long). The trolly mission was when Dutch got a concussion. He never got what little treatment might of helped, but Hosea's death was the final nail in his rational coffin.
There are many details in Dutch's character that point to him being a narcissist and anyone questioning him (outside of Hosea) was off limits in his mind. I'm certain Dutch has always been out for himself, but he couldn't be by himself, that's why he always needed followers. He's a cult leader really, but in some skewed way he did love the gang.
Which is why I believe he went back to find Micah, get the blackwater money, and kill Micah to take his gang (like Micah took his, so to speak). Just so happened that John showed up before Spring could break, leading Dutch into a choice rather familiar. Finally he chose to save John, and walk away from the money, ultimately getting some small measure of -- redemption.
I think there's very good evidence that Dutch has both Narcissistic Personality Disorder and is also Bipolar. Throughout the whole game we can see Dutch swinging between manic highs and depressive lows.
He goes from being completely confident that everything will turn out right and singing songs or racing horses with his friends, to brooding in his tent, accusing his best friends of likely being traitors and yelling at his girlfriend. He thinks he can solve everyone's problems and is basically some kind of outlaw messiah who will user in a new world, but at the same time refuses to take personal responsibility for anything that goes wrong.
I actually think Dutch didn't even want the money when he shot micah if anything Dutch shooting Micah and walking away was a Goodbye to not only Arthur but to the man he was.
Dutch finishing off that old women actually good from an outlaw perspective
It was really Arthur who started turning on Dutch. Dutch was an outlaw through and through, and Arthur started wondering what it was all for and disobeying orders at every turn. He was right to do so, but when Dutch rode off with the money instead of going to get Marston's wife, it was exactly what you'd expect he'd do. Arthur was the one who was too grounded to stay on his get rich or die trying path.
The most important plan Arthur sabotaged with a direct disobey is breaking John out. Dutch literally said”not yet, not now, I need time and no traitor” only actual execution could clear John’s name being the rat at Saint Denis, Dutch would organise a rescue attempt at the execution with a peace of mind. Arthur would have been shot in any other gang by doubting gang leader constantly and doing things behind his back😂
Yeah thats why i play low honor so my arthur mostly cares about himself and i see dutch as a rival so i always antagonize him and barely micah since im out of camp
Bro you’re the only one in these comments that said the correct thing so far. This game gets you caught up in forgetting that you’re a gunslinging outlaw instead of a law abiding citizen. Dutch was always the same person throughout the entire game and nothing changed with him whatsoever but however when had Hosea constantly doubting Dutch and Arthur constantly doubting it made Dutch not trust his 2 right hand men and it made Dutch question himself as the leader of the gang. And so therefore Dutch started killing all of these people with power and robbing even more to prove to the gang that he wasn’t weak and he was still the most feared outlaw
I don’t wanna be “that guy” but in regards to the thumbnail, the correct grammar is “WERE there signs?” 😂 great video tho!
I wanted to be that guy but now i dont have to anymore :p
@@piotr78I’ll be the bad guy for us
Think there were signs from the opening chapter that Dutch was always a piece of sh*t.
His monologue about Davie dying was utter cringe.
Then his constant gas lighting of Arthur & Hosea when they were putting community safety over greed/money.
This was always his way of controlling the group.
This is the exact moment where Dutch becomes Heisenberg
Dutch hatred towards arthur started when he left him to die at cornwal's factory no need to be philosophical about it , it is so obvious ..
Very cool video man, nice pace, watched it while rolling up and you kept me company. Cheers to you mate
I think the actual turning point in Dutch's perception of Arthur is when he saves John. This is the first time Arthur has gone behind his back, and that is when Dutch realizes that Arthur doesn't have faith in him. The reason I think this is because Dutch always speaks to him strangely after this and rarely tells Arthur what the plans are at the moment.
great video, excellent production, seeing you only had 2k subs was a shock. Good job, keep it up PLEASE
Dutch didnt change at all. You see the speech from the prologue sitting in an abandoned cart or whatever in chapter 2. In chapter three, theres a very subtle scene i believe its after you get back from fushing with dutch and hosea where Dutch says "I think I, i mean we, will do good here." Something along those lines. He was always just looking out for himself. Even when milton came to arrest dutch, he acted like he was going to go but the entire gang brandished their weapons. He knew that entire gang was willing to die for him. They were human shields. The only person in the entire gang who changed at all was arthur. After he got sick he became scared of what would happen to him after he died. He beat up a sick dude, pretty much killed him, then came back and threatened to kill his son. After he got sick, everything changed. I would even go as far as to say arthur pre sickness was the worst person in the gang (yes worse than even micah.) He was the only one willing to actually work with straus, i doubt anyone else in the gang wouldve been shooting up stawberry after breaking micah out of jail. Sure, he would comment negatively about it, but deep down he still enjoyed it. Hosea was literally the only person that kept Dutch level headed (if you can even say that.)
Personally I think it was always there.
Dutch has been beating himself up for the Blackwater Heist. He questions Arthur’s loyalty several times in Colter. When I played my second play through, my wife saw through Dutch immediately. “So he didn’t like any idea that isn’t his own, huh?” Made me think.
"Killed in cold blood"
The lady pulled a knife on him, she's not innocent and she posed a threat to what was already a dire situation. I would've done the same.
I agree with everything in this video but I see red dead fans saying this WAY too much.
Yes! Christ, this is the only move that was no risk, kill her when she is done helping and get your cash, and sense of security back. I agree. Even the alligator feeding part too, he got rid of a body, and killed a terrible man in one instance. I would also! The police would surely catch them if Bronte was let live.
Agreed. Although, I'd have held Bronte for ransom i.e. make his organization rob the bank for us and exchange Bronte for that money then take off to Australia on a chartered boat.
@@robertphillips213 You're smart.
@@ZeroCal150 I imagine I'd feel foolish all over again the moment I came face to face with a Salt Water Crocodile. Or a Spider Rain.
@@robertphillips213 Fuck spiders. I'll take the dinosaur.
One of the first things Dutch said to me in Horseshoe Overlook was something like "You're going to betray me aren't you, Arthur? You are the type" as I walked by carrying a sack to Pearson's wagon. Always struck me as an odd thing to say right out of the gate after escaping the mountains when things were looking up. He also outright accuses Arthur of doubting him in Colter as they prepared to ride out to Colm's camp. Dutch was paranoid of Arthur from the very beginning. I think a better question to ask is when did Arthur start turning against Dutch. If I could pinpoint that moment, I'd say it was in the oil factory attack when Dutch left Arthur to die instead of helping him. Another relevant observation is the fact that the two most outspoken critics of Dutch, Hosea & Arthur, were not included in the Blackwater score. So, it seems Dutch was turning against both of them prior to the first scene we ever saw.
I haven’t finished the game (sudden and expensive issues with my gaming hardware) but I have a hard time believing this whole “Dutch is crazy” idea. Dutch is extremely intelligent and shows a great deal of restraint. Even the examples given in the video, like Dutch “agreeing” with Arthur and then moments later “Insists? INSISTS??” or questioning Arthur’s health to undercut his legitimate concerns.
Clearly he still knows how to manipulate. Clearly he can tell who is a political threat. Clearly he knows what his goals are and has a concrete plan to accomplish them.
I think a lot of players seem to forget that Arthur, Dutch, Hosea, & Co. are not good people. They are EVIL. If they lived today we’d all be cheering the FBI and SWAT on as they take them out. They murder again and again, they rob and steal, cheat, lie, kidnap, beat, threaten… The Van Der Linde Gang is full of evil people.
Dutch didn’t “go crazy.” Dutch just stop pretending to be a good person, and he let his evil come through.
There is a dialogue in Chapter 2 where Dutch says Arthur at a random time that he feels like Arthur would betray him at the end. It's the most odd thinf I heard ifrom Dutch at chapter 2.
The incident with the old woman in Guarma is interesting. I always thought it was stupid of her to ask for more money. That never goes well in movies and games. Obviously it's just fiction, but I was kinda surprised that Arthur was so shocked.
He was shocked because this kill shouldnt happen. Why? Because Dutch told him to kill people who want to kill you, not to kill people you were doing business with and lied to. Dutch had agreement, he broker it and killed her. Thats why Arthur was shocked
I could of peep he never really cared cause when Arthur was sick he never asked him was ok or tell him he need to get well but instead he shows he aware his not doing well but he never told him hope u get better or take a break it was more like he just wanted to suck up all the use out of him till he couldn’t no more cause he knew Arthur was a rider even when he felt like ditch was no good
HE INSISTS !! >o
🤠
Its so sad because in chapter 6, even tho Arthur knows everything is over, he constantly tries to reason with Dutch the whole chapter, to no success and Dutch just being dismissive is sad
God damnit, another RUclipsr who says Dutch killed the _woman who tried mugging him at knifepoint_ in "cold blood"...
*did you just like your own comment?*
Also, to be fair. Shes old. He couldve disarmed her and moved on. Even IF it was a justified action. Dutch’s follow up comment of “she was gonna betray us Arthur” and not “I was defending myself/us Arthur”. Goes to show he knew it was wrong.
Right after Dutch hits his head during the trolley mission, there's a mission that has Arthur and Dutch riding together away from camp. I forget what they said exactly but I sensed some tension between them both. I think that was the first real bit of tension I noticed.
Idk
Truly a thought provoking comment.
@@JohnV170And yet one of the truest, for who actually knows anything?
Exactly. Do we really know anything?
I have been watching you videos for the past week while I’m at school I really enjoy them and I moved at the beginning of January and I can’t get on my ps5 because it is being moved here by some movers
There is an interaction right at the very beginning of Chapter 2, like right when you first arrive at horseshoe overlook and even before doing the saloon mission with Lenny, where if you walk past Dutch he will say something along the lines of "I think you will betray me one day Arthur, you're the type."
I am on my second playthrough and he literally said it to me right after I upgraded his damn tent, I was dumbstruck.
I think Dutch went mad long before the events of the game. Probably after taking in Micah and botching the Blackwater heist. He was just able to mask it until Beaver Hollow with the help of Hosea.
For sure. It can be seen as early as colter. There’s hidden dialogue of him snapping at Hosea. And I’m like wait a minute. That sounds like beaver hollow Dutch. And I thought. If Hosea was at beaver hollow that’s exactly how dutch would’ve spoken to him.
I think when Dutch and whether fell out was when John killed Micah the way John says thank you to Dutch pissed of Dutch and made him say to Arthur “I HAD A GODDAMN PLAN”
He got brain damage from the trolly wreck. He got a severe concussion and told Lenny he needs to “sleep it off.” Which you ARE NOT supposed to do.
In Chapter 6, Arthur tells Sadie “it seems what began happening in Blackwater began happening years ago…”
This hints that there were instances where Dutch committed atrocities or was already acting strange even before the events of Rdr2.
Also in the Epilogue, John tells Sadie “You see a man who changed, I saw a man who got found out for who he truly is”
This also tells us the John also noticed what Arthur did years ago. And that Dutch might have always been lying to them, and instead was nothing more than a killer like Milton said he was.
I read somewhere that the trolley crash possibly gave Dutch a concussion or minor brain damage which in turn caused his mental state to deteriorate.
There's another head injury Dutch suffers when you rash the boat full of horses into the shore. That one he seems to be dizzy. This could be another turning point or more minor brain injury.
In a way, Dutch's decline is a good example of Vass' insanity quote since everytime something good happens to the van der lin gang it abruptly stops by O'Driscolls, Pinkertons, and the law, and which happens 4 times, and each time it ends the same. Until the final chapter where a different outcome but yet it feels at best bittersweet and tragic to the perspective of the gang.
Chapter 2 at Horseshoe overlook Dutch says to Arthur
*"I expect you'll betray me in the end!"*
Which is funny because it was Dutch who betrayed Arthur
I think they started falling out during and after blackwater. Arthur stated his disliking of Dutch killing that girl and back then Micah had already kind of replaced Arthur where he overided Arthurs opinion with Hosea in turn for a ferry job which led to the massacre. Hosea dying also played a role, with his advisor and reasoning gone he let his emotional side get to him siding with his supporter Micah and straying away from his doubter Arthur.
Nah it was way earlier than that. For me it was when the explosive didn't go off during the train robbery. But his descent into madness started in Blackwater when he shot that girl
Like all petty tyrants, Dutch grew paranoid, surrounded himself with yes men, and distanced himself from his real friends, blaming them for his own failures.
The rage I felt playing this game near the end was surpassed by the sad memories i had playing the first 2 chapters.
I got my girl to play the game and she asked me if Dutch was the bad guy as soon as she heard him speak😂
(I told her no)
Having played the original back in 2010 and knowing full well what Dutch would go on to do, my impression playing through RDR2 was that Dutch was quite clearly a textbook example of a psychopath from the very beginning.
I'm not a psychologist or anything, but for fun I ran what we know of Dutch, Micah and Arthur against the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. I came up with a score of 37/40 for Dutch, 36/40 for Micah and 27/40 for Arthur. A score of 30/40 or higher is the threshold for diagnosis as a psychopath in the US.
Аfter playing this game, I realized that R* makes you connect with the character. You go through everything with Arthur and start to see him as someone you know or respect. While playing as Arthur, I couldn’t imagine having low honor or doing dishonorable things. His character compels you to be a good person, and it doesn’t feel natural to go around killing people, robbing them, etc. That’s more like Micah. In Arthur’s final mission, I chose to help John. In Arthur’s last moments, I started reflecting on my own life. It inspired me to live with great honor. Just like him.
ive said this so MANY times: Dutch was always crazy.
I love how Early in chapter 2 when walking by Dutch, Dutch will sometimes remark how he knows Arthur is going to betray him.