I’m not surprised your channel is growing so quickly. I’ve been working at an intersection of fashion and technology for decades and have rarely met anyone who can describe business concepts and consumers perception as well as you do. Bravo
I agree and it’s just a hobbie. He has a family and a career. I believe he has said he scripts these videos as well. Mike definitely brings it. You expressed it very well.
Very kind of you - I try at least to do my research and do my best to communicate it in an understandable way. It's always great to hear that insiders and experts like yourself find that what I have to say isn't completely off 😊😊😊 Thank you
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch You articulated it well. Couldn't put a finger on the significant jumps in pricing and the resulting holes in offerings, like if the entry level Mark XX is too small for one's wrist then one would have to pay so much more to get a 43mm.
Mike, I am consistently and profoundly impressed by how you share your perspective with us watch enthusiasts in such a philosophical manner. Thank you very much for that. Your effort is always much appreciated.
@@durrenbt The Da Vinci perpetual calendar chronograph designed by Kurt Klaus in the 1980's is based on the Valjoux 7750, and it's a horological marvel. The 7750 is a wonderful movement, which lends itself to a number of applications, including haute horlogerie pieces.
@@johnnyguitar6697 in 99% of use cases the 7750 has been a bane on the industry and the day we stop seeing >14mm chronographs as acceptable can't come soon enough. It's also an ugly pig of a movement
@@smgeraldo At what point does it become a total rip off, providing the movement is well regulated? I know many watch types feel this way about Swatch group brands such as Longines and Rado, for example, but in the case of the former their movements are now more frequently modified specifically to purpose, and they are extremely accurate. Is it a problem for watches at their usual price points (e.g.2 - 4k?) or does it only become a problem beyond 4k? I struggle myself with this at times, especially if a watch is extremely well designed.
@@dmoneydmoney6050 I dont consider them ugly. I like the Pilots and Portigieser range. The probem is, Pilot watches are by design basic, so I find it hard to justify those prices.
You really nailed the brand perception bit. What does IWC want to be known for? Volvo is safety. Amazon is convenience. Rolex is luxury sport. What is IWC?
I love IWC and have 5 of their pieces. But, I think their pricing impacts sales more than their sizing. I've referred many new watch folks to IWC and they can't get past the high prices relative to something like Omega or even Rolex if you can buy new from a boutique. I bought 4 of 5 second hand at >30% discounts
I looked long and hard for buying a used watch, I just purchased the Mark 20- Retail! Love it and the 8 year warranty. I know I paid a few dollars more, but the 10-15% discounts were not worth the scratches and possible fraud in the pre-owned market!
For me it’s like JLC, with absurd price increases for no apparent reasoning other than the compete with Rolex. It’s enough that models I wanted are not worth it when other pilot derivative brands are more than capable to fulfill the need, even some with brand cache.
just wanted to say that I absolutely love your content. So informative, knowledgeable and entertaining with really interesting insights and opinions. You deserve way more followers, definitely one of the finest Horology channels on RUclips 👍
Nice review and I can’t disagree with some of your arguments but being the owner of a Mark XX and a Portuguese I feel proud to wear a watch that is not “popular”. I leave others to buy a Rolex to showcase they got some money from bitcoins or a Tudor like I wanted a Rolex but I can’t. IWC are for watch lovers and not for the main stream and I hope it will stay like that. By the way my Mark XX with 5 days power reserve (120 hours !) is beating every expectation leaving only 1.2 second per day better than a COSC without that price. IWC for many but not for everyone and that’s why I love it.
Stellar content as always, Mike. The Pilot is the only IWC that fits both my wrist and wallet. I’d love to see an analytical comparison on higher end pilot watches including both Swiss and German brands.
This is how I assess IWC... (1) Technical prowess: superb, especially with complications (2) Design: handsome, manly (3) Dimension: generally a little too big (4) Build quality: as good as Rolex and Omega if not better (5) Pricing: Should come down $2000 Verdict: I think IWC will never lower prices because it considers itself a higher-end brand than Rolex. If so, the brand cannot help but be something of a niche product for people who really like the brand. It will never be a threat to Omega, for example.
Another enjoyable analysis, Mike. I have a habit of watching your videos twice in a row whenever a new one drops. Once just to enjoy the overrall gist then one more time to really deep dive into each point. Then I'll go back to them every now and then when I want something enjoyable playing in the background while I do chores around the house.Cheers and keep up the good work
I remember listening to my dad back in the 1970's talking with a friend about his IWC. They referred to it as "a Schaffhausen". Interesting that their brand identity back in the day was "a Schaffhausen".
I am brand new, and rather funds challenged, but I truly appreciate how I feel I've learned not simply something specific about the given topic, IWC in this case, but have been given a little bit of a history/context lesson as well in such a straightforward manner. Thank you for bringing this style of discussion to the table!
A very well put together piece, as always. A few weekends ago I stopped by my local watch shop and they happened to have an Ingenieur (the first one they've gotten that wasn't reserved). I was excited to try it on. I was left feeling... meh. It was the white dial and wouldn't be my fist color choice so that may have had something to do with it. They did also however recently start carrying Zenith. I looked at the Defy Skyline 41mm directly next to the Ingenieur, tried them both on. At $2,500 less than the IWC the Zenith has: -A more modern design (even if it is a bit Royal Oak "inspired") -A more interesting movement -A display caseback -A very easy to use quick release (and an extra strap in the box) The IWC Has: -120 hour power reserve -"Hey look Genta made this!" It's as Mike says, when comparing IWC to another watch brand they're good... but just not great. If you took 10 people who knew nothing about Genta or brand history and showed them these two watches at their retail price I would be surprised if more than maybe one of them would choose the IWC. If I'm mistaken on any of these points, someone please correct me.
If you like a really a model get it one the second market at a good price and then stop looking at any watch clips on the social media. You'll enjoy that watch so much for a long time that it becomes a natural part of your daily life. I had a Fossil watch that I bought with my grandmother when I was 11 or 12 and I had it for over 25 years before I watched videos about other watches and that changed my perspective it was a strange day - tbh it was sad :) I think it was the best value for money item I ever had. I still love that watch but I rocked the shit out of it because I skated with that watch ever damn day. You it's scratched down to the core :D
I think another fundamental problem is that their entry watch is a Flieger, i.e. the most basic and easily replicated and widespread design there is. There are so many Flieger watches at all price points that look extremely similar to each other that I think that the issue isn't so much that there are "unusual jumps" up from the entry price point but rather that they have to price their most popular entry watch so much lower than the rest because it's just a basic Flieger.
My 2000 IWC UTC dual time is my favorite watch; a 39 mm sophisticated design that does away with the clutter of a GMT hand and outer bezel. Had it serviced by IWC and they were great - fast, efficient, friendly, and reasonably priced.
I’ve watched quite a few YT videos on watches but you’re the only one I’m subscribed to. I just love your approach. Not sensationalist, super straightforward. And as you say, cuts through the marketing and clutter out there-but I think you do it in a nice and not cynical way.
Interesting análisis of their pricing funnel. I had not noticed. I like IWC, but we watch enthusiasts/ collectors or whatever are the only ones who can rationalize spending >$5000 on a watch. If I bought a Mark XX I would have to try an explain to some of my acquaintances why I spent 5g’s on watch that looks the same as their $500 watch, and then bring up the fact that they spend 3g’s on a Wilson Combat Beretta. That’s an argument I never have to deal with when wearing a Rolex. Their brand recognition just does not command the prices they want. As always thank you for sharing.
As a complete rookie on watch collecting, I just want to thank you for your input. IWC is a brand that I have noticed, particularly with their high calendar moment. By watching your show, I feel that I understand them better. Please keep up the good work on Horology.
Another stuck in the middle watch brand with a price and quality imbalance issue...Price increases without demonstrating a corresponding increase in quality opens itself to a charge of lack of value and even greed and puts buyers off....No great watches and if they have any resemblence of greatness (like Pilot Chrono / Mark XX) they are overpriced and consumers may go for better alternatives (Speedy / Explorer I)....Think IWC needs to focus on 2 key segments - dive watches (most popular watch segment globally) and Pilot watches (history) and relaunch them at prices that closely match their quality...Having other more luxury segments seem to add little to their brand equity and margins...IWC should not try to be all things to all people, it should try to be highly selective focusing on market segments that it has a chance of acheving greatness and hopefully dominance... Another great video Mike!
There are some great bargains in the IWC catalogue but I think you hit the nail on the head with the size of their watches, especially the thickness or chunkiness. I love the spitfire range and my two favorites are the MarkXV Battle of Britain and the Spitfire Double Chrono (ref IW371806 specifically). Both have the representation of a Spitfire on the caseback. Casebacks with illustrations or some other little easter egg are my guilty pleasure.
Answer is easy: Richemont. I remember the 1990s IWC when it was arguably considered cooler than Rolex and they were doing things like having former IWC watchmaker Richard Habring make a split seconds available to a larger market with an ingenious mod to a 7750.
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch your analysis is second to none in this space, so the content always shines through. I just found the purple/magenta lighting in the backdrop to be slightly distracting. Please keep up the amazing work 🙌🙏
I am one of the subset you mentioned- I'm a passionate aviator and, though I like and appreciate lots of watches out there, end of the day it's usually only pilot watches that get me to actually open my wallet and invest in the experience of owning and wearing them. I've had two Mark XX's (first blue, then black)- loved them both a ton- but felt these were somewhere between an everyday sport watch and a field watch in pilot style, and for me they felt too small to ACTUALLY be a true pilot watch. I sold the Mark and for a bit more I was able to find a Big Pilot 43, black dial, but with the bracelet. That is a supreme pilot watch, maybe the best there is. I think the problem, but also IWC's strength, is that pilot watches are by nature 'tool' watches, and IWC is (IMHO) the *only* company to successfully take that style, that design, and cross the threshold from 'tool' to 'luxury'. But maybe not cross the threshold as much as bridge the gap, riding right in between really nicely. Even my "luxury" big pilot feels like a rugged tool watch and I have no problem using it as such, on a nato it can hike and ski and aviate with me very naturally. . To ME, this is where IWC shines and, in this little niche of luxury pilot watches, no one even comes close to competing with them. But aviation is a struggling industry, from the airlines to general aviation and flying for sport, to smaller activities like hang gliding and paragliding (something I grew up in and got very good at, just for the sport to pretty much die out). IWC is a very capable watch maker, and I hope they can find their path to thriving, but sadly I think the luxury-pilot niche isn't enough to support them. I also hope they don't ruin what they do so well!!!!! I want a pilot chrono 41 next...
The FAA reports there are only 159,000 ATP (airline) rated pilots in the US currently. Only a subset of them will buy luxury watches. Only a subset of the subset will buy pilot luxury watches. And once they have one, how many of them will buy more? It’s not enough for IWC to survive on. The other way of looking at it is that it’s incredible they are doing as well as they are with as much market share as they have, considering the market they appeal to. Aviation is an EXPENSIVE “hobby”… it becomes more of a lifestyle… and a lot of people that own and fly planes make life concessions in order to afford their flying. Nice watches ain’t on that menu 😢
I think some Portugiesers are stunning. The dials on some give me a dress watch with a sporty vibe. But I don’t have an 8 inch wrist! I’ve never understood why they don’t come out with a model or two that are a couple millimeters smaller in case size. I, and probably many others, would seriously consider buying one.
IWC pricing had me looking elsewhere until I finally got around to diving into their catalog. My limited edition Antoine de Saint Exupery Pilot Chronograph has a classic tool elegance that isn’t trendy in any sense but wows me. Fun IWC fact, famous psychoanalyst Carl Jung was a co-owner of IWC as a result of “marrying well”.
@@spuckz if you’re not familiar with famed WWll aviator and “The Little Prince” author/illustrator, Antoine de Saint Exupery consider checking him out. IWC isn’t as staid as some would have you believe.
@@jackmcclary2136 Thanks for your advice. I studied philosophy and for me the Petite Prince is a very important book in my life. Besides that it's a sad story around Atonoine. I'm glad that IWC honored the work of Antoine and carry the torch of love and hand them over to new generations of watch lovers. I hope they can keep that line alive. I don't know the sale numbers but I hope this niche produce will always find some enthusiast. It's a beautiful classic watch with a playful hidden core :) - A watch that you buy that you will hand over to your son some day!
I used to view IWC as a premium brand on par with Omega and Rolex. However, I agree with your sentiments. There seems to be a disconnect between what they offer and the prices they are asking. Also: I love the Gundam Wing model behind your chair lol
I think you're creating quite the little consulting business. Seriously great job breaking down the business/marketing/strategy side of this little hobby of ours. Probably got quite a few people googling "what's a KPI?" Leave the boisterous commentary to Nico Leonard and the sardonic wit to Andrew Morgan. Keep it up! Great Job.
Lol. The consultants have nothing to fear. One thing is babbling on about this kind of stuff, but I can't be bothered with aligning graphs and text on slides anymore and putting on a suit to impress som CEO also no longer rates high on my life passions... 😂😂😂
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch Understandable, those things are certainly not my passions, either, though I can still geek out on market research and business analysis, so I guess I'll leave the great youtube content for you lol
Yeah, that's pretty much my value perception as well. They'd need to knock 40% off their current prices for me to consider buying one. At their current prices, there are other watches I'd rather buy. IWC wouldn't even be in the Top 20.
I’m a big IWC fan, just bought my grail 7 day reserve Big Pilot from Watchfinder this year. I have wanted this watch for twenty years and still couldn’t bring myself to buying it new. Mike, This breakdown is spot on from my point of view. Your analysis of watches and the market is always on point, great work 🙌
For me IWC is like Ikea. Good but not high end. Like tools for people from corporations, more expensive, nicer design but not necessarily as professional as those used by a specialist. That's why people who are looking for specific solutions like dress watch, sports watch, luxury solution, prestige or other "quality" always look at other brands first. Add the awareness that the same mechanism as in an IWC watch for 11k can be found in others for 1.5k and we have what we have.
Really good explanation, well-executed video (I already subscribed to your channel). I just want to add something: IWC has been awkward since its origin as an American-Swiss-German company, and this is part of its ethos and charm, in my opinion. It is very reliable, solid, and accurate (top-notch level), and never flashy. As I mentioned before, this is part of the charm, plus the fact that you won’t see them everywhere all the time like other brands.
For me the IWC made prior to Georges Kern era was legit way cooler than what they are currently offer. Also if you look around carefuly, their used price tend to stay stable over the year (of cos there are some who try their luck to price higher)
Thanks for your video. I agree with many of your points . I’d like to add: The prices you quoted are MSRP prices … not the actual discounted prices one can get from most authorised dealers. The secondary market prices are extremely low . this means that you take a bath should you buy a IWC from the authorised dealer . The reason for this is that many authorised dealers in Asia are doing bundling deals where the IWC is used as a sacrifice watch and the Patek Philippe is being held ransom. this creates an artificial glut of IWC watches in the secondary market at artificially low prices by the sellers. they immediately walk out of the authorised dealer and dump the IWC to the secondary market knowing full well they will take a big loss And they are okay with this because they get the patek at MSRP. Also, IWC makes only 15,000 Watches per year and this is not enough for the secondary market grey market dealers to hype up the watch and make enough money through volume so they do not pay any influencers to talk about the IWC. 🤝
I think size preference is the main driver. My first swiss watch was a IWC portuguese in the mid 2000s, back then big watches were in vogue. I still have it, nice piece in blue
I have two IWC watches and I hadn't ever really given them a second look before about 18 months ago and I have been buying luxury watches for over 20 years now, it can be the way with watch collecting , there comes a point where you fancy something different to anything you've previously owned, I've owned numerous Rolex, Omega, Breitling and Panerai and had always primarily been a dive watch fan/buyer but then I started to really like the IWC Pilots range , I ended up buying a Big Pilot 43 in green and fell in love with a fair few others whilst visiting the Boutique which was also a far superior customer experience to any i'd previously had with other brands. I have since added the Chronograph Woodland which I picked up for a couple of grand below retail and would love a Mojave edition - At retail though they are possibly a bit steep so agree on that point.
Yes they’re expensive but as they say if you want to buy a brand buy Omega bur if you want to buy a watch then buy IWC. I like that they don’t do all the silly adverts and product placing but still have really iconic pieces
The Mark XX is a very cool watch, but for 6150 shouldn’t there be more lume and a display caseback? Putting those gripes aside, because traditional design and thickness are the accepted reasons for those choices, what else can I get for my money at that price point? You can grey market a Mark XX for between 5200-5700. You can get a Speedmaster professional for between 5700-6500. You can get a Constelation Globemaster, a Zenith Defy Skykine, an Aquaterra, pretty much any Tudor, and for just a little more money you can get an AirKing. The Pilot Chrono plays in the same price range as a Zenith Chronomaster and the Navitimer. The Ingenieur has to compete with the Chopard Alpine Eagle, the Piaget Polo S. I like all these watches from IWC. I love their bracelet and clasp tech. I love the size of the Mark XX. But when I go to Chrono 24 and look at what else I can buy for my 5-11 thousand dollars there are just so many alternatives that look more attractive and seem like a better value for money. Obviously this is highly personal, and maybe the Pilot watch heritage just doesn’t ring with me, but as a consumer it isn’t just that IWC has high prices it is their prices relative to the rest of the market.
As usual this is an excellent analysis of a watch brand and I agree with everything you've said here. I looked at buying an IWC and even got excited about doing so - until I saw it in the metal, when I realised it was far too big and bulky. It was also too expensive for what it is. I bought an Aqua Terra instead which is great. It would be interesting to hear you do a full analysis of Ulysse Nardin and Chopard next - I like both but am put off by the way they drop in value, which I doubt really reflects their quality (I know its about matching supply and demand, desirability, etc.). Great video as ever - always looking forward to the next one.
Excellent channel! Great insight! Back in 2002, for me, IWC was one of the top brands. I bought the Doppel Chronograph and the transitional Big Pilot watch. Those pieces exuded masculinity. Then at some point, IWC lost its way when it made the horrible and insipid [for me] Ingenieur watch, Top Guns, etc. It seems IWC has lost its ability to attract clientele. When your target segment is $7K and more, your competition is doing better things. I get Dornblueth & Son for around $10K, but it has lots of hand craftsmanship and other extras. To get the same with IWC, we're talking about $25K, which just doesn't make sense.
Another great video breaking down watch brands. I agree with everything you say especially re: IWC's narrative or lack there of. I don't have the wrist size to wear IWC watches so I only admire them from afar, but the Mark XX with the white dial that you featured in your examples is so beautiful. If it came in a smaller size, I would get it in a heartbeat regardless of price.
I kind of like the smaller, lessor known brand, and just became aware recently. With much research involved, I just purchased the Mark XX at full retail. The Ebay and Chron 24 market is unimpressive and the discounts to me are not worth the risk of getting a scratched up and possible fake watch! Plus these online companies have no service after the sale!! My retailer threw in an extra leather band and links!! If I have a problem, I can drop it off, and get it fixed immediately. Love IWC!!! The 120 hour reserve is fantastic and I get many compliments on the Green dial!!!!!!!
I just went to the new shop they opened here in Firenze. Even if somehow boring still nice watches, but absolutely tedious customer experience...for me spending this kind of money means that I want to have fun while doing it.
IWC lack soul, emotion, and a story (despite a long history). When a person drops several thousand…they want to feel something…IWC just doesn’t scratch that emotive itch
Spot on, as we make decisions with our emotions, IWC is not triggering a strong emotive response. Combine that with the pricing, every watch has a better alternative for the price. The more money that is spent, the stronger the need for strong brand salience and meaning.
IWC is such an unappealing name and logo at the same time. Some will say that doesn't matter if it's a good watch... but it does even if you don't accept it
@@michaeljordan6008 I did quit my day job and retired after 25+ years in brand marketing. I now teach strategic marketing at University. I’ll happily engage IWC and share my wealth of knowledge to solve their brand challenge:)
I think you summed up all my issues with IWC, also those I wasn't able to precisely formulate myself. Beside sizing and pricing, not afiliating myself with the brand was another factor. They always seem kinda... Cold... In many ways. I'm afraid you were right about 'boardroom watch' from another video. And I 100% agree about foggy pricing structure. Just recently I got interested with Mark XX and could not understand what's the difference between Mark and Big Pilot and why the premium. Otherwise, I think I will give it a try with Mark XX because I'm impressed with all the improvements they did.
Great video. I already own two IWC watches and love them, but I can only hope they would listen to your points. I wish for the Portugieser Automatic 42 to become a 41 with less thickness and a 1000€ price reduction. Also add the strap exchange system with a rubber/steel/learher band option. This would be a banger.
2:56. I’m wearing the one on the left today. I have a big watch collection including a sold gold Rolex , a perpetual calendar etc. I didn’t need the pilot chrono 41, but it’s so fun in 41! Wear it a ton!! Have all the strap/bracelet options. Runs +0.5secs/day. Accurate AF IWC is a frustrating brand. My watch could be awesome with: -nicer dial finish. -close case back to restore anti magnetism -Make date wheels match dial colour.
I disagree that IWC needs to be more like the big brands. I have looked at many rolexes over the years in shops. I have owned two Tudors. I have owned two Omegas. I always liked IWC pilot watches, but avoided them for their size and other reasons. Well, I decided to buy a big pilot 43 on bracelet. It is my favorite watch. I am selling my Omega now. I wear my IWC all the time. The QC is much higher than rolex/tudor. And the bracelet and watch design are much more comfortable than my seamster, which has sharp bracelet edges and annoying/ugly micro-adjust (this is not a universal problem). IWC is not supposed to be equivalent to rolex/tudor. They are much more similar to Omega. They are a brand for engineers, not finance bros. They are a brand for someone who doesn't want everyone to know they have a 10 grand watch. They are a watch for someone who appreciates the engineering, design, and history, much like Omega. But unlike Omega, they don't need to cater to their own history as much---not every watch release is a retro design. IWC also has better bracelets than Omega. I know Omega has anti-magnetic movements, but trust me a good bracelet is much more important. So, in my book, IWC is the best "affordable" luxury brand, followed very closely by Omega (this is largely personal taste and bracelet preference).
I went to an IWC watch event in LA Jolla a few years ago. They are very nice. The agressive features like the crown or the cases on the Top Gun watches were stand out. I wanted to see the light green AMG Petronas, but they didn't have that one. I recommend trying one or a dozen on. Lol. One lady was wearing the Portugueser and it looked good on her.
Personally I don't think IWC is comparable with Rolex nor Tudor. IWC is more about tradition, artisanal craftsmanship, and the so popular term nowadays "quiet luxury". One of my first watches was the Portofino Chrono and this year I bought a 40mm Portuguese with Salmon dial in a Santoni green alligator strap... Uff that kind of elegance and flair only other brands like JLC can achieve. It's so delectable to wear both of them (and I always receive lots of compliments). I think it's a brand for real watch enthusiasts. Being able to see that beautiful movement and having a piece that it's different from all of the D/D and Subs around. Why do we all have to wear the same overpriced, impossible to get, mass-produced watch (referring to some Rolexes)? I agree with you in many of your calls, specially with the Pilot and Ingenieur families. But this is my personal opinion on the brand. As you can tell I'm a proud IWC enthusiast!
This is it. Who wants to pay luxury prices for mass produced products. Some add a premium to this fact :). Some consider IWCs place within the Richmont portfolio. The whole premise for the video is why IWC does not do like Rolex, and then sell ten times more watches? That is like asking this question “Why does not “This watch, that watch” “make video like MKBHD and have millions of subscribers? I think, from the other comments, people here prefer rationalisation and normalisation of a manufacturer, brand, or product. Nice video and rationale for consumerism, not necessarily luxury. Everyone does not want an Apple Watch, everyone does not want a Rolex, a few want an existing model from IWC. Cheers :)
IWC lacks brand salience. There is no category of watch where it springs to mind as the first choice, and there is no brand story to make us desire the watch. The lack of emotive response to the brand results in it always falling to position 3 or 4 behind other brands when choosing. For me this is like the difference between a radiator and a fire. A radiator (IWC) may be efficient at delivering heat, but with a real fire you gather your friends with a drink and swap stories.(even though the fire may be less efficient it drives a stronger emotive response.)
@@Jason_Quinn and yet, that very watch could be a Timex for most people, yet costs over 5k. If you are the average guy walking into a shop, for that money, you are more likely to buy an oyster perpetual. They just don’t look like luxury watches or have the brand cache. You are looking at this from someone with knowledge, not the average punter.
I’ve been contemplating about getting another IWC then this video gets uploaded 😄. I’ve been looking at IWC watches for a few years now and always hesitated at the last minute in terms of purchasing one. My first IWC finally was last year which unsurprisingly is the Ingeniuer in black. I love it and I wanted to add a companion piece but I think this video finally articulated some of my thoughts about this brand and their offerings. They have solid offerings, but other brands provide very comparable alternatives that warrants a second thought.
I had an IWC for years, it was my first luxury watch, I wore it every day and I loved it. Then, I sent it in for a routine service, and the whole experience was so terrible I ended up selling the watch to a dealer when I finally got it back (from the service centre in Switzerland, still fitted with visible, obviously incorrect parts that they insisted were OK because they were "genuine"). There was no apology, no explanation for why my watch had been ruined, and I'll never touch an IWC again.
I am lucky enough to get Rolex watches from an AD. The SA I deal with is a big fan of IWC and shows me their watches often when I see him. I can't deny the quality but they seem expensive for what they are, at the more affordable end anyway. When the TAG glassbox chronos came out I was smitten and asked to see one. I bought it there and then, I think to his surprise. Yes I paid retail as I did for the nineteen Rolex he has sold me, most of which are steel professional models. Never been pressured to buy anything I didn't want.
I must admit, Mike, that i had a chuckle to myself when you mentioned how thick the case of thr AT is in comparison to its Rolex amd Omega competitors and how it "wouldn't fit under the cuff" as nicely as those. Just reminded me of where the majority of these divers end up IRL use 😉
Divers in water are a very rare occurence. I remember a recent Adrian Barker video where he took a Black Bay monochrome and stuck has hand in the water. my thought was "that's the deepest that watch will ever go". 😂
Their watches are good but don't really seem great next to other brands at various price points. Why buy a Mark XX when you can get an Aqua Terra which looks far more premium? At higher price points, Rolex and JLC are more compelling.
I would say that even at a higher price point, I would still take another brand over IWC for any type of complication or style. The only watch that is compelling is actually the Mark 20, but only if you like this particular aviation style. Personally, I would go with a Longines because I don't care about the movement that much.
@@mariusdanfilip7204 the movement is available in different watches for less money and when it comes to longines they have a much richer aviation history.
I own both the Aqua Terra and the Mark XX and disagree strongly. I think the Mark XX on the jubilee style metal bracelet looks as premium and shiny as the Aqua Terra but with the benefit of a much higher power reserve, slimmer case hight and profile and an genius on the fly adjustment in the clasp. If I had to pick only one it would easily be the Mark XX.
I really like the discussion point. I do have an entry level Portofino which is slim and an excellent dress watch but their service charges are outrageous
Bremont was great marketing peddling trash. IWC has real history and watchmaking with horrific marketing. If IWC had Bremonts marketing they could be so much bigger.
They dont need Bremont marketing but they could easily be omega if they had the right marketing - omega has James Bond, George Clooney, the Olympics and 309 shades of the moon
I recently bought a new watch. And found IWC Flieger and Breitling Chronomat B01 both very appealing. I did a research. IWC has the "nice look" argument. Breitling has chronometer certification, an own caliber, longer running time... and better value retention... I went with the Breitling in the end. And thats exactly what I read in the comments here. IWC makes amazing watches. But there seems to be always "something slightly better" when it comes to the decision making...
While i appreciate your opinion, i think the image restraint of iwc is exactly why i like them. They are just trying to make high quality watches. Their brand identity exists behind a veil that opens up to you when you get to know the brand better. Theyre not in your face. And isnt that already an asset for a high horology watch? Theyre like the anti Rolex.
Excellent video Mike and as always this is thought provoking. I have a philosophical resistance to IWC, so I’ll never own one, but your analysis is thorough, particularly the branding points. The opening question though to paraphrase: ‘How can IWC sell more and command higher prices’ should be flipped in my view. I think many of their watches are overpriced so they need to look at driving sales by adjusting their pricing, catalogue and branding strategy.
i've got a big boney wrist. Anything that is 46-50mm looks good on my wrist. I love that IWC caters for this, whilst maintaining an elegant look of watches you'dcommonly find in the 34mm range.
You're very correct in most of what you say. I do think the Aquatimer is quite unique and special as I own one. Different and extremely legible. Lume could have been better though. Generally their line up is quite good but always room for improvement and innovation. Great video
Excellent observation. I think you hit it on the head. I have walked into an IWC shop the last two times I was in a market for a new watch. They were always very “nice”, but nothing grabbed me like other brands did. I eventually went with other companies.
Mike, I’ve recently seen a few of your videos on YT and I must compliment you on being a fantastic reviewer! 👏🏻🥳🎉 Your content is pure, uncluttered and and really insightful, yet so simple! Excellent stuff! 🎊👏🏻😊 Keep up your excellent work and I look forward to enjoying your content - you’ve now got an ardent follower in India! 🇮🇳🤩
1. The Pilot is their only recognizable model outside enthusiasts. B. Over-priced. They really missed a good opportunity on the Ingenieur. The rest? You can't visually tell them apart by model. Remember all the SW200 movements? I do. III. No real marketing. Aquatimer & Portuguesieur don't have anything behind them. I want to like IWC but they need to get a grip.
I ordered in a Pilot’s Chrono to my local Goldsmiths to view with the aim of walking out with it. I didn’t, the finish wasn’t what I’d expect from a watch at that price. I did however look at a Speedmaster, a Black Bay ceramic and a Black Bay chrono in the shop and was impressed with all three. I now own all three and still don’t own an IWC….
Was interested in a Pilot Chrono Top Gun for some time but ultimately decided on the Black Bay Ceramic as well. Similar looks (ceramic, all black, sporty, oversized strap) for less than half the price
@@matthias8574 IWC make lovely watches but they are too expensive compared to the competition. I actually think the new Chrono Performance may be my first IWC but I’ll need to mentally justify the price before I go to try one on… Glad you’re happy with the Tudor, great watch.
As a corporate strategy and product pricing professional and mild watch enthusiast, this is a very good video. I’m also in the market for a $10k-ish steel integrated watch, like the Ingenieur, GP Laureato, Bulgari Octo Finissimo, etc. As many have noted, the Ingenieur is probably $2-4k overpriced at retail for an unspectacular movement, no display case back, just a Genta linked heritage. They made the classic mistake of, at best, thinking they were undercutting GP’s Laureato while failing to acknowledge the Zenith Defy Skyline, a far cheaper watch that, absent the dumb 10-second subdial, is a comparative steal. TLDR: never let the C-suite or marketing team have final say on product pricing; both groups near always get it wrong. (Fortunately, all of these watches are selling for discounts on the secondary market)
You're absolutely correct. The marketing strategy with this company is as off as any company in the world. IWC should be at the top of the food chain, period. Up until now, I had never taken them seriously. That has all changed for me now. Thanks for educating me on this company.
I own an entry level IWC which I absolutely love. I was extremely enthusiastic when I bought it and felt like the quality of finishing, bracelet and clasp were very high and much better than comparably priced Rolex and grand Seiko models I'd handled and considered. I felt excited about the idea of buying other models up the range in the future. And then I saw the huge price jumps and lost that desire. I'd rather save for something more distinctive like a GO, VC or even a Lange (one of these days) than spring so much for something that feels very similar to what I already own.
Thanks again for your vid, Mike. You really like the shirt, don't you? I came really close to buying a Spitfire once but holding it in my hand, it looked like a Hamilton Khaki for 8x the price 🤣
Never really thought about them so looked up the website to see what they offer. The Mark XX is the only one that would get any wrist time. You hit the nail on the head, they make nice watches and I could afford to buy one but I'd have to love it to spend best part of £6000 on any watch. Once you have a few watches you're happy with getting someone to spend a lot of money on a watch means its got to be really special. Rolex manage the trick by persuading people that having one demonstrates the owner is special.
Excellent quality watches with great designs and heritage. I believe the problem is that IWC hasn't been able to communicate correctly their intention and concept, that is why there is a misunderstanding about sizing and pricing. The new Ingenieur is the perfect example and since they don't know how to appeal to new customers; until they don't change their sizing or pricing this perception will continue. IWC is trapped and don't see it.
I'm a fan of the Ingenieur as well, but for roughly $5000 Australian more than a 40mm Explorer decided on the Rolex. If the Ingenieur was in the 14 to 14.5 thousand Australian dollar range I'd probably gone for it.
I’m not surprised your channel is growing so quickly. I’ve been working at an intersection of fashion and technology for decades and have rarely met anyone who can describe business concepts and consumers perception as well as you do. Bravo
I agree and it’s just a hobbie. He has a family and a career. I believe he has said he scripts these videos as well. Mike definitely brings it. You expressed it very well.
Very kind of you - I try at least to do my research and do my best to communicate it in an understandable way. It's always great to hear that insiders and experts like yourself find that what I have to say isn't completely off 😊😊😊
Thank you
@@stevenmunizich9366 I agree!! Mike nails it. Isn’t he cute?! (Just to make him less tough lol ) 😜
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch You articulated it well. Couldn't put a finger on the significant jumps in pricing and the resulting holes in offerings, like if the entry level Mark XX is too small for one's wrist then one would have to pay so much more to get a 43mm.
Mike, I am consistently and profoundly impressed by how you share your perspective with us watch enthusiasts in such a philosophical manner. Thank you very much for that. Your effort is always much appreciated.
Thanks a bunch for that 😊😊😊
This is what happens when your C-suite stops giving a shit and tries charging 5000€+ for a 2892-powered flieger
And some 7750 powered chronographs. Why would I pay 10K for that??
Agreed. I can never understand how watch brands can charge many 1000’s for ETA or Sellita movemented watches? Total rip off.
@@durrenbt The Da Vinci perpetual calendar chronograph designed by Kurt Klaus in the 1980's is based on the Valjoux 7750, and it's a horological marvel. The 7750 is a wonderful movement, which lends itself to a number of applications, including haute horlogerie pieces.
@@johnnyguitar6697 in 99% of use cases the 7750 has been a bane on the industry and the day we stop seeing >14mm chronographs as acceptable can't come soon enough. It's also an ugly pig of a movement
@@smgeraldo At what point does it become a total rip off, providing the movement is well regulated? I know many watch types feel this way about Swatch group brands such as Longines and Rado, for example, but in the case of the former their movements are now more frequently modified specifically to purpose, and they are extremely accurate. Is it a problem for watches at their usual price points (e.g.2 - 4k?) or does it only become a problem beyond 4k?
I struggle myself with this at times, especially if a watch is extremely well designed.
For me it is pretty simple, I think IWC makes great watches. However there is always something I like more for the money.
Can you name some examples?
@@bertholdbach4959don’t worry I’ll break it down so you understand clearly. IWC makes ugly watches so he would rather buy ANYTHING other than IWC.
@@dmoneydmoney6050 I dont consider them ugly. I like the Pilots and Portigieser range. The probem is, Pilot watches are by design basic, so I find it hard to justify those prices.
@@bertholdbach4959 Why do you want him to name examples? Take a look around.
@@dmoneydmoney6050 he didn't ask for a breakdown he asked for examples.
You really nailed the brand perception bit. What does IWC want to be known for? Volvo is safety. Amazon is convenience. Rolex is luxury sport. What is IWC?
I love IWC and have 5 of their pieces. But, I think their pricing impacts sales more than their sizing. I've referred many new watch folks to IWC and they can't get past the high prices relative to something like Omega or even Rolex if you can buy new from a boutique. I bought 4 of 5 second hand at >30% discounts
I looked long and hard for buying a used watch, I just purchased the Mark 20- Retail! Love it and the 8 year warranty. I know I paid a few dollars more, but the 10-15% discounts were not worth the scratches and possible fraud in the pre-owned market!
For me it’s like JLC, with absurd price increases for no apparent reasoning other than the compete with Rolex. It’s enough that models I wanted are not worth it when other pilot derivative brands are more than capable to fulfill the need, even some with brand cache.
just wanted to say that I absolutely love your content. So informative, knowledgeable and entertaining with really interesting insights and opinions. You deserve way more followers, definitely one of the finest Horology channels on RUclips 👍
100% agree
Nice review and I can’t disagree with some of your arguments but being the owner of a Mark XX and a Portuguese I feel proud to wear a watch that is not “popular”. I leave others to buy a Rolex to showcase they got some money from bitcoins or a Tudor like I wanted a Rolex but I can’t. IWC are for watch lovers and not for the main stream and I hope it will stay like that. By the way my Mark XX with 5 days power reserve (120 hours !) is beating every expectation leaving only 1.2 second per day better than a COSC without that price. IWC for many but not for everyone and that’s why I love it.
Like I said in the video - What I like about IWC may not be what is what would make them generally popular, but I do also like IWC a lot 😀😀
Stellar content as always, Mike. The Pilot is the only IWC that fits both my wrist and wallet. I’d love to see an analytical comparison on higher end pilot watches including both Swiss and German brands.
This is how I assess IWC...
(1) Technical prowess: superb, especially with complications
(2) Design: handsome, manly
(3) Dimension: generally a little too big
(4) Build quality: as good as Rolex and Omega if not better
(5) Pricing: Should come down $2000
Verdict: I think IWC will never lower prices because it considers itself a higher-end brand than Rolex. If so, the brand cannot help but be something of a niche product for people who really like the brand. It will never be a threat to Omega, for example.
I watch a ton of watch channels. This is easily my top 3. My only issue is I check daily and have to wait for a week for another episode.
Agreed - this Jennie Elle and watch gringa Brittney
Thanks - Yeah. Once a week for the most part (but next week there'll be one on wednesday as well) 😊
Another enjoyable analysis, Mike. I have a habit of watching your videos twice in a row whenever a new one drops. Once just to enjoy the overrall gist then one more time to really deep dive into each point. Then I'll go back to them every now and then when I want something enjoyable playing in the background while I do chores around the house.Cheers and keep up the good work
I'm the same - and I always catch something the second time that I missed on the first viewing.
My favourite watch channel currently. Keep up the good work sir
I don't feel like Mike is trying to sell me something that I don't like, but "everyone has one". Objective journalist
Will do my best 😊😊😊
I remember listening to my dad back in the 1970's talking with a friend about his IWC. They referred to it as "a Schaffhausen". Interesting that their brand identity back in the day was "a Schaffhausen".
Mark xx is the best GADA watch I’ve owned, including Rolex, omega, etc. exceptional bracelet
Same here. It's not perfect, but it's damn close.
@@JustinChouViolin it bloody well needs to be amazing. from what I can see that’s where the money has gone
Very true but I would prefer applied indices and a color matched date wheel for some reason.
show the movement! Case back needs a window. Omega can make a anti-magnetic watch with a display back.
Date window is awful. Besides that I was considering it.
I am brand new, and rather funds challenged, but I truly appreciate how I feel I've learned not simply something specific about the given topic, IWC in this case, but have been given a little bit of a history/context lesson as well in such a straightforward manner. Thank you for bringing this style of discussion to the table!
Happy to hear that the video was worth your time 😊
A very well put together piece, as always. A few weekends ago I stopped by my local watch shop and they happened to have an Ingenieur (the first one they've gotten that wasn't reserved). I was excited to try it on. I was left feeling... meh. It was the white dial and wouldn't be my fist color choice so that may have had something to do with it.
They did also however recently start carrying Zenith. I looked at the Defy Skyline 41mm directly next to the Ingenieur, tried them both on. At $2,500 less than the IWC the Zenith has:
-A more modern design (even if it is a bit Royal Oak "inspired")
-A more interesting movement
-A display caseback
-A very easy to use quick release (and an extra strap in the box)
The IWC Has:
-120 hour power reserve
-"Hey look Genta made this!"
It's as Mike says, when comparing IWC to another watch brand they're good... but just not great.
If you took 10 people who knew nothing about Genta or brand history and showed them these two watches at their retail price I would be surprised if more than maybe one of them would choose the IWC. If I'm mistaken on any of these points, someone please correct me.
I'm a big fan of IWC, but unfortunately will never be able to afford one.
never say never!
If you like a really a model get it one the second market at a good price and then stop looking at any watch clips on the social media. You'll enjoy that watch so much for a long time that it becomes a natural part of your daily life. I had a Fossil watch that I bought with my grandmother when I was 11 or 12 and I had it for over 25 years before I watched videos about other watches and that changed my perspective it was a strange day - tbh it was sad :) I think it was the best value for money item I ever had. I still love that watch but I rocked the shit out of it because I skated with that watch ever damn day. You it's scratched down to the core :D
I’m a fan of IWC, from a distance and I can’t get one
You can always look for one on the gray market on watch sales estate sales you just never know
I got a second hand Mark XVIII for £1,700
I think another fundamental problem is that their entry watch is a Flieger, i.e. the most basic and easily replicated and widespread design there is. There are so many Flieger watches at all price points that look extremely similar to each other that I think that the issue isn't so much that there are "unusual jumps" up from the entry price point but rather that they have to price their most popular entry watch so much lower than the rest because it's just a basic Flieger.
I’ve got two I W C watches and absolutely loves them
My 2000 IWC UTC dual time is my favorite watch; a 39 mm sophisticated design that does away with the clutter of a GMT hand and outer bezel. Had it serviced by IWC and they were great - fast, efficient, friendly, and reasonably priced.
I have one of those too. Great model. The IWC catalogue in the late 90's / early 2000's was awesome and very consistent.
I’ve watched quite a few YT videos on watches but you’re the only one I’m subscribed to.
I just love your approach. Not sensationalist, super straightforward. And as you say, cuts through the marketing and clutter out there-but I think you do it in a nice and not cynical way.
Thanks for subscribing then - extra Appreciated 😊😊😊😊
Before anyone asks: “KPI” = “Key Performance Indicators”.
Who needed to know that ?
Interesting análisis of their pricing funnel. I had not noticed. I like IWC, but we watch enthusiasts/ collectors or whatever are the only ones who can rationalize spending >$5000 on a watch. If I bought a Mark XX I would have to try an explain to some of my acquaintances why I spent 5g’s on watch that looks the same as their $500 watch, and then bring up the fact that they spend 3g’s on a Wilson Combat Beretta. That’s an argument I never have to deal with when wearing a Rolex. Their brand recognition just does not command the prices they want. As always thank you for sharing.
I'd go with the Wilson, even before the crown. Lol
I answer that question all the time. "You have to try it on."
@@thomashelm6931 I went with the Langdon. 😉
As a complete rookie on watch collecting, I just want to thank you for your input. IWC is a brand that I have noticed, particularly with their high calendar moment. By watching your show, I feel that I understand them better. Please keep up the good work on Horology.
Check out Longines for a calendar watch. They have just as good if not better for a fraction of the price.
Glad to hear you find value in my videos. Cheers 😊😊
Another stuck in the middle watch brand with a price and quality imbalance issue...Price increases without demonstrating a corresponding increase in quality opens itself to a charge of lack of value and even greed and puts buyers off....No great watches and if they have any resemblence of greatness (like Pilot Chrono / Mark XX) they are overpriced and consumers may go for better alternatives (Speedy / Explorer I)....Think IWC needs to focus on 2 key segments - dive watches (most popular watch segment globally) and Pilot watches (history) and relaunch them at prices that closely match their quality...Having other more luxury segments seem to add little to their brand equity and margins...IWC should not try to be all things to all people, it should try to be highly selective focusing on market segments that it has a chance of acheving greatness and hopefully dominance... Another great video Mike!
There are some great bargains in the IWC catalogue but I think you hit the nail on the head with the size of their watches, especially the thickness or chunkiness. I love the spitfire range and my two favorites are the MarkXV Battle of Britain and the Spitfire Double Chrono (ref IW371806 specifically). Both have the representation of a Spitfire on the caseback. Casebacks with illustrations or some other little easter egg are my guilty pleasure.
7k average retail given their catalogie is actually insane o.0
Answer is easy: Richemont. I remember the 1990s IWC when it was arguably considered cooler than Rolex and they were doing things like having former IWC watchmaker Richard Habring make a split seconds available to a larger market with an ingenious mod to a 7750.
Love the color palette of your set and lighting. It has evolved to the perfect tones 👌
Thanks - Trying to become more "pro" with the setup with the space and equipment I have on hand 😊
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch your analysis is second to none in this space, so the content always shines through. I just found the purple/magenta lighting in the backdrop to be slightly distracting. Please keep up the amazing work 🙌🙏
I am one of the subset you mentioned- I'm a passionate aviator and, though I like and appreciate lots of watches out there, end of the day it's usually only pilot watches that get me to actually open my wallet and invest in the experience of owning and wearing them. I've had two Mark XX's (first blue, then black)- loved them both a ton- but felt these were somewhere between an everyday sport watch and a field watch in pilot style, and for me they felt too small to ACTUALLY be a true pilot watch. I sold the Mark and for a bit more I was able to find a Big Pilot 43, black dial, but with the bracelet. That is a supreme pilot watch, maybe the best there is. I think the problem, but also IWC's strength, is that pilot watches are by nature 'tool' watches, and IWC is (IMHO) the *only* company to successfully take that style, that design, and cross the threshold from 'tool' to 'luxury'. But maybe not cross the threshold as much as bridge the gap, riding right in between really nicely. Even my "luxury" big pilot feels like a rugged tool watch and I have no problem using it as such, on a nato it can hike and ski and aviate with me very naturally. . To ME, this is where IWC shines and, in this little niche of luxury pilot watches, no one even comes close to competing with them. But aviation is a struggling industry, from the airlines to general aviation and flying for sport, to smaller activities like hang gliding and paragliding (something I grew up in and got very good at, just for the sport to pretty much die out). IWC is a very capable watch maker, and I hope they can find their path to thriving, but sadly I think the luxury-pilot niche isn't enough to support them. I also hope they don't ruin what they do so well!!!!! I want a pilot chrono 41 next...
also- like the new lighting setup, subtle but classy upgrade ;-)
There is a thriving luxury pilot watch segment… but it’s for commercial pilots.
The FAA reports there are only 159,000 ATP (airline) rated pilots in the US currently. Only a subset of them will buy luxury watches. Only a subset of the subset will buy pilot luxury watches. And once they have one, how many of them will buy more? It’s not enough for IWC to survive on.
The other way of looking at it is that it’s incredible they are doing as well as they are with as much market share as they have, considering the market they appeal to.
Aviation is an EXPENSIVE “hobby”… it becomes more of a lifestyle… and a lot of people that own and fly planes make life concessions in order to afford their flying. Nice watches ain’t on that menu 😢
You wrote an essay 😂
I wish the pilot chrono woodland was 41mm and not 44.5....
Ridiculous new prices
I think some Portugiesers are stunning. The dials on some give me a dress watch with a sporty vibe. But I don’t have an 8 inch wrist! I’ve never understood why they don’t come out with a model or two that are a couple millimeters smaller in case size. I, and probably many others, would seriously consider buying one.
IWC pricing had me looking elsewhere until I finally got around to diving into their catalog. My limited edition Antoine de Saint Exupery Pilot Chronograph has a classic tool elegance that isn’t trendy in any sense but wows me. Fun IWC fact, famous psychoanalyst Carl Jung was a co-owner of IWC as a result of “marrying well”.
That's a crazy fact, thank you! They should make a Carl Jung edition and go all out in design :D
@@spuckz if you’re not familiar with famed WWll aviator and “The Little Prince” author/illustrator, Antoine de Saint Exupery consider checking him out. IWC isn’t as staid as some would have you believe.
@@jackmcclary2136 Thanks for your advice. I studied philosophy and for me the Petite Prince is a very important book in my life. Besides that it's a sad story around Atonoine. I'm glad that IWC honored the work of Antoine and carry the torch of love and hand them over to new generations of watch lovers. I hope they can keep that line alive. I don't know the sale numbers but I hope this niche produce will always find some enthusiast. It's a beautiful classic watch with a playful hidden core :) - A watch that you buy that you will hand over to your son some day!
I used to view IWC as a premium brand on par with Omega and Rolex. However, I agree with your sentiments. There seems to be a disconnect between what they offer and the prices they are asking.
Also: I love the Gundam Wing model behind your chair lol
Gundam for the win 😊
I think you're creating quite the little consulting business. Seriously great job breaking down the business/marketing/strategy side of this little hobby of ours. Probably got quite a few people googling "what's a KPI?" Leave the boisterous commentary to Nico Leonard and the sardonic wit to Andrew Morgan. Keep it up! Great Job.
Yes, but, as a strategy consultant, the field is already too crowded, save some clients for the rest of us! (I kid, mostly)
Lol. The consultants have nothing to fear. One thing is babbling on about this kind of stuff, but I can't be bothered with aligning graphs and text on slides anymore and putting on a suit to impress som CEO also no longer rates high on my life passions... 😂😂😂
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch Understandable, those things are certainly not my passions, either, though I can still geek out on market research and business analysis, so I guess I'll leave the great youtube content for you lol
Mark XX @ 4.5k
Big pilot @ 6k
Ingénieur @ 8.5k
Id buy all 3 :)
Basically a premium Longines
Yeah, that's pretty much my value perception as well. They'd need to knock 40% off their current prices for me to consider buying one. At their current prices, there are other watches I'd rather buy. IWC wouldn't even be in the Top 20.
@@L233233 same as JLC really, basically knock the recent inflation off
Price goes up to 8.5k when it actually looks really good. 4.5k for ok.
Pretty much listing the grey market price 👍👍👍👍
I’m a big IWC fan, just bought my grail 7 day reserve Big Pilot from Watchfinder this year. I have wanted this watch for twenty years and still couldn’t bring myself to buying it new. Mike, This breakdown is spot on from my point of view. Your analysis of watches and the market is always on point, great work 🙌
For me IWC is like Ikea. Good but not high end. Like tools for people from corporations, more expensive, nicer design but not necessarily as professional as those used by a specialist. That's why people who are looking for specific solutions like dress watch, sports watch, luxury solution, prestige or other "quality" always look at other brands first. Add the awareness that the same mechanism as in an IWC watch for 11k can be found in others for 1.5k and we have what we have.
Its like the BMW 5 series for 8 series money
Ikea? Ouch... That's rough 😂😂
Do you how much cost a Patek, AP or Vacheron (High End pieces)?
@@jmbaug1229 Grandmaster Chime retails probably around $3 million but what does that have to do with anything?
"Overpriced" would be a good start.
I'm currently buying a 25 year old 3706 and think that's quintessential IWC.
Really good explanation, well-executed video (I already subscribed to your channel). I just want to add something: IWC has been awkward since its origin as an American-Swiss-German company, and this is part of its ethos and charm, in my opinion. It is very reliable, solid, and accurate (top-notch level), and never flashy. As I mentioned before, this is part of the charm, plus the fact that you won’t see them everywhere all the time like other brands.
Welcome to the channel 😀
For me the IWC made prior to Georges Kern era was legit way cooler than what they are currently offer.
Also if you look around carefuly, their used price tend to stay stable over the year (of cos there are some who try their luck to price higher)
This was a great video. You captured it well and the sad thing is, unlike some brands, the potential is there. I expect it would take a decade to fix.
thanks 😀😀
More of these videos please. Almost like a 'state of the brand' theme.
Noted 😊😊😊
Thanks for your video. I agree with many of your points .
I’d like to add:
The prices you quoted are MSRP prices … not the actual discounted prices one can get from most authorised dealers.
The secondary market prices are extremely low . this means that you take a bath should you buy a IWC from the authorised dealer . The reason for this is that many authorised dealers in Asia are doing bundling deals where the IWC is used as a sacrifice watch and the Patek Philippe is being held ransom. this creates an artificial glut of IWC watches in the secondary market at artificially low prices by the sellers. they immediately walk out of the authorised dealer and dump the IWC to the secondary market knowing full well they will take a big loss And they are okay with this because they get the patek at MSRP.
Also, IWC makes only 15,000 Watches per year and this is not enough for the secondary market grey market dealers to hype up the watch and make enough money through volume so they do not pay any influencers to talk about the IWC.
🤝
I think size preference is the main driver. My first swiss watch was a IWC portuguese in the mid 2000s, back then big watches were in vogue. I still have it, nice piece in blue
I have two IWC watches and I hadn't ever really given them a second look before about 18 months ago and I have been buying luxury watches for over 20 years now, it can be the way with watch collecting , there comes a point where you fancy something different to anything you've previously owned, I've owned numerous Rolex, Omega, Breitling and Panerai and had always primarily been a dive watch fan/buyer but then I started to really like the IWC Pilots range , I ended up buying a Big Pilot 43 in green and fell in love with a fair few others whilst visiting the Boutique which was also a far superior customer experience to any i'd previously had with other brands. I have since added the Chronograph Woodland which I picked up for a couple of grand below retail and would love a Mojave edition - At retail though they are possibly a bit steep so agree on that point.
Great video , you are totally right about so many points. Thank you for sharing.
Yes they’re expensive but as they say if you want to buy a brand buy Omega bur if you want to buy a watch then buy IWC. I like that they don’t do all the silly adverts and product placing but still have really iconic pieces
I think they did something pretty silly with the Tp Gun sequel? Which is funny considering Mavericks's watch in the original was a PD 7176.
The Mark XX is a very cool watch, but for 6150 shouldn’t there be more lume and a display caseback? Putting those gripes aside, because traditional design and thickness are the accepted reasons for those choices, what else can I get for my money at that price point? You can grey market a Mark XX for between 5200-5700. You can get a Speedmaster professional for between 5700-6500. You can get a Constelation Globemaster, a Zenith Defy Skykine, an Aquaterra, pretty much any Tudor, and for just a little more money you can get an AirKing. The Pilot Chrono plays in the same price range as a Zenith Chronomaster and the Navitimer. The Ingenieur has to compete with the Chopard Alpine Eagle, the Piaget Polo S. I like all these watches from IWC. I love their bracelet and clasp tech. I love the size of the Mark XX. But when I go to Chrono 24 and look at what else I can buy for my 5-11 thousand dollars there are just so many alternatives that look more attractive and seem like a better value for money. Obviously this is highly personal, and maybe the Pilot watch heritage just doesn’t ring with me, but as a consumer it isn’t just that IWC has high prices it is their prices relative to the rest of the market.
Price. It's price. It's definitely price.
As usual this is an excellent analysis of a watch brand and I agree with everything you've said here. I looked at buying an IWC and even got excited about doing so - until I saw it in the metal, when I realised it was far too big and bulky. It was also too expensive for what it is. I bought an Aqua Terra instead which is great. It would be interesting to hear you do a full analysis of Ulysse Nardin and Chopard next - I like both but am put off by the way they drop in value, which I doubt really reflects their quality (I know its about matching supply and demand, desirability, etc.). Great video as ever - always looking forward to the next one.
Ulysse are a bit of a sleeper brand for me. A bit niche, not front and center in any way - Maybe I should dive a little into them ? 🤔
Excellent channel!
Great insight!
Back in 2002, for me, IWC was one of the top brands. I bought the Doppel Chronograph and the transitional Big Pilot watch. Those pieces exuded masculinity. Then at some point, IWC lost its way when it made the horrible and insipid [for me] Ingenieur watch, Top Guns, etc.
It seems IWC has lost its ability to attract clientele.
When your target segment is $7K and more, your competition is doing better things.
I get Dornblueth & Son for around $10K, but it has lots of hand craftsmanship and other extras. To get the same with IWC, we're talking about $25K, which just doesn't make sense.
Another great video breaking down watch brands. I agree with everything you say especially re: IWC's narrative or lack there of. I don't have the wrist size to wear IWC watches so I only admire them from afar, but the Mark XX with the white dial that you featured in your examples is so beautiful. If it came in a smaller size, I would get it in a heartbeat regardless of price.
I kind of like the smaller, lessor known brand, and just became aware recently. With much research involved, I just purchased the Mark XX at full retail. The Ebay and Chron 24 market is unimpressive and the discounts to me are not worth the risk of getting a scratched up and possible fake watch! Plus these online companies have no service after the sale!! My retailer threw in an extra leather band and links!! If I have a problem, I can drop it off, and get it fixed immediately. Love IWC!!! The 120 hour reserve is fantastic and I get many compliments on the Green dial!!!!!!!
I just went to the new shop they opened here in Firenze.
Even if somehow boring still nice watches, but absolutely tedious customer experience...for me spending this kind of money means that I want to have fun while doing it.
Love the insight and explanations. Learn a lot here.
I probably won’t ever buy another watch, but your business acumen makes every video worth watching.
Lol... That's not the conclusion you should draw! 😂😂😂 Keep buying watches 😂😂😂
IWC lack soul, emotion, and a story (despite a long history). When a person drops several thousand…they want to feel something…IWC just doesn’t scratch that emotive itch
Yeah, don’t quit your day job. 😂
Spot on, as we make decisions with our emotions, IWC is not triggering a strong emotive response. Combine that with the pricing, every watch has a better alternative for the price. The more money that is spent, the stronger the need for strong brand salience and meaning.
IWC is such an unappealing name and logo at the same time. Some will say that doesn't matter if it's a good watch... but it does even if you don't accept it
@@michaeljordan6008 I did quit my day job and retired after 25+ years in brand marketing. I now teach strategic marketing at University. I’ll happily engage IWC and share my wealth of knowledge to solve their brand challenge:)
@@GoTerpsGoBlue - Yes, thankfully, my daughter is at Vanderbilt and won’t be subjected to your uneducated, pompous drivel.
I appreciate your insight as always. Keep up the great work, mate!
Will do my best at least, thanks 😊😊😊
I think you summed up all my issues with IWC, also those I wasn't able to precisely formulate myself.
Beside sizing and pricing, not afiliating myself with the brand was another factor. They always seem kinda... Cold... In many ways.
I'm afraid you were right about 'boardroom watch' from another video.
And I 100% agree about foggy pricing structure. Just recently I got interested with Mark XX and could not understand what's the difference between Mark and Big Pilot and why the premium.
Otherwise, I think I will give it a try with Mark XX because I'm impressed with all the improvements they did.
My favourite watch was the mark 18, until i bought the ingenieur last month.
Great video. I already own two IWC watches and love them, but I can only hope they would listen to your points. I wish for the Portugieser Automatic 42 to become a 41 with less thickness and a 1000€ price reduction. Also add the strap exchange system with a rubber/steel/learher band option. This would be a banger.
2:56. I’m wearing the one on the left today. I have a big watch collection including a sold gold Rolex , a perpetual calendar etc. I didn’t need the pilot chrono 41, but it’s so fun in 41! Wear it a ton!! Have all the strap/bracelet options. Runs +0.5secs/day. Accurate AF
IWC is a frustrating brand. My watch could be awesome with:
-nicer dial finish.
-close case back to restore anti magnetism
-Make date wheels match dial colour.
I disagree that IWC needs to be more like the big brands. I have looked at many rolexes over the years in shops. I have owned two Tudors. I have owned two Omegas. I always liked IWC pilot watches, but avoided them for their size and other reasons. Well, I decided to buy a big pilot 43 on bracelet. It is my favorite watch. I am selling my Omega now. I wear my IWC all the time. The QC is much higher than rolex/tudor. And the bracelet and watch design are much more comfortable than my seamster, which has sharp bracelet edges and annoying/ugly micro-adjust (this is not a universal problem).
IWC is not supposed to be equivalent to rolex/tudor. They are much more similar to Omega. They are a brand for engineers, not finance bros. They are a brand for someone who doesn't want everyone to know they have a 10 grand watch. They are a watch for someone who appreciates the engineering, design, and history, much like Omega. But unlike Omega, they don't need to cater to their own history as much---not every watch release is a retro design. IWC also has better bracelets than Omega. I know Omega has anti-magnetic movements, but trust me a good bracelet is much more important. So, in my book, IWC is the best "affordable" luxury brand, followed very closely by Omega (this is largely personal taste and bracelet preference).
I went to an IWC watch event in LA Jolla a few years ago. They are very nice. The agressive features like the crown or the cases on the Top Gun watches were stand out. I wanted to see the light green AMG Petronas, but they didn't have that one. I recommend trying one or a dozen on. Lol. One lady was wearing the Portugueser and it looked good on her.
I own the Big Pilot 43 and Mark XVIII, both incredible watches
Agree 😊😊
Personally I don't think IWC is comparable with Rolex nor Tudor. IWC is more about tradition, artisanal craftsmanship, and the so popular term nowadays "quiet luxury". One of my first watches was the Portofino Chrono and this year I bought a 40mm Portuguese with Salmon dial in a Santoni green alligator strap... Uff that kind of elegance and flair only other brands like JLC can achieve. It's so delectable to wear both of them (and I always receive lots of compliments). I think it's a brand for real watch enthusiasts. Being able to see that beautiful movement and having a piece that it's different from all of the D/D and Subs around. Why do we all have to wear the same overpriced, impossible to get, mass-produced watch (referring to some Rolexes)? I agree with you in many of your calls, specially with the Pilot and Ingenieur families. But this is my personal opinion on the brand. As you can tell I'm a proud IWC enthusiast!
This is it. Who wants to pay luxury prices for mass produced products. Some add a premium to this fact :). Some consider IWCs place within the Richmont portfolio.
The whole premise for the video is why IWC does not do like Rolex, and then sell ten times more watches? That is like asking this question “Why does not “This watch, that watch” “make video like MKBHD and have millions of subscribers?
I think, from the other comments, people here prefer rationalisation and normalisation of a manufacturer, brand, or product.
Nice video and rationale for consumerism, not necessarily luxury. Everyone does not want an Apple Watch, everyone does not want a Rolex, a few want an existing model from IWC.
Cheers :)
Mike- good analysis. IWCs' sales volume is surprising. Thanks.
Cheers, thanks 😊
IWC lacks brand salience. There is no category of watch where it springs to mind as the first choice, and there is no brand story to make us desire the watch. The lack of emotive response to the brand results in it always falling to position 3 or 4 behind other brands when choosing. For me this is like the difference between a radiator and a fire. A radiator (IWC) may be efficient at delivering heat, but with a real fire you gather your friends with a drink and swap stories.(even though the fire may be less efficient it drives a stronger emotive response.)
You're kidding, right? IWC = Pilot Watch. Nobody does "black dial, white numerals" to the level that IWC does.
@@Jason_Quinn and yet, that very watch could be a Timex for most people, yet costs over 5k. If you are the average guy walking into a shop, for that money, you are more likely to buy an oyster perpetual. They just don’t look like luxury watches or have the brand cache. You are looking at this from someone with knowledge, not the average punter.
I’ve been contemplating about getting another IWC then this video gets uploaded 😄. I’ve been looking at IWC watches for a few years now and always hesitated at the last minute in terms of purchasing one.
My first IWC finally was last year which unsurprisingly is the Ingeniuer in black. I love it and I wanted to add a companion piece but I think this video finally articulated some of my thoughts about this brand and their offerings.
They have solid offerings, but other brands provide very comparable alternatives that warrants a second thought.
I had an IWC for years, it was my first luxury watch, I wore it every day and I loved it. Then, I sent it in for a routine service, and the whole experience was so terrible I ended up selling the watch to a dealer when I finally got it back (from the service centre in Switzerland, still fitted with visible, obviously incorrect parts that they insisted were OK because they were "genuine"). There was no apology, no explanation for why my watch had been ruined, and I'll never touch an IWC again.
I am lucky enough to get Rolex watches from an AD. The SA I deal with is a big fan of IWC and shows me their watches often when I see him. I can't deny the quality but they seem expensive for what they are, at the more affordable end anyway. When the TAG glassbox chronos came out I was smitten and asked to see one. I bought it there and then, I think to his surprise. Yes I paid retail as I did for the nineteen Rolex he has sold me, most of which are steel professional models. Never been pressured to buy anything I didn't want.
I must admit, Mike, that i had a chuckle to myself when you mentioned how thick the case of thr AT is in comparison to its Rolex amd Omega competitors and how it "wouldn't fit under the cuff" as nicely as those. Just reminded me of where the majority of these divers end up IRL use 😉
Divers in water are a very rare occurence. I remember a recent Adrian Barker video where he took a Black Bay monochrome and stuck has hand in the water. my thought was "that's the deepest that watch will ever go". 😂
Their watches are good but don't really seem great next to other brands at various price points. Why buy a Mark XX when you can get an Aqua Terra which looks far more premium? At higher price points, Rolex and JLC are more compelling.
I’d even say why bother with a mark XX when an explorer is right there in the mix. You’d have to REALLY want that pilot look for that price.
I would say that even at a higher price point, I would still take another brand over IWC for any type of complication or style.
The only watch that is compelling is actually the Mark 20, but only if you like this particular aviation style. Personally, I would go with a Longines because I don't care about the movement that much.
@@mariusdanfilip7204 the movement is available in different watches for less money and when it comes to longines they have a much richer aviation history.
I own both the Aqua Terra and the Mark XX and disagree strongly. I think the Mark XX on the jubilee style metal bracelet looks as premium and shiny as the Aqua Terra but with the benefit of a much higher power reserve, slimmer case hight and profile and an genius on the fly adjustment in the clasp. If I had to pick only one it would easily be the Mark XX.
@@mariusdanfilip7204 The movement in the Longines is probably more reliable too!
I really like the discussion point. I do have an entry level Portofino which is slim and an excellent dress watch but their service charges are outrageous
Bremont was great marketing peddling trash.
IWC has real history and watchmaking with horrific marketing.
If IWC had Bremonts marketing they could be so much bigger.
They dont need Bremont marketing but they could easily be omega if they had the right marketing - omega has James Bond, George Clooney, the Olympics and 309 shades of the moon
I recently bought a new watch. And found IWC Flieger and Breitling Chronomat B01 both very appealing. I did a research. IWC has the "nice look" argument. Breitling has chronometer certification, an own caliber, longer running time... and better value retention... I went with the Breitling in the end. And thats exactly what I read in the comments here. IWC makes amazing watches. But there seems to be always "something slightly better" when it comes to the decision making...
While i appreciate your opinion, i think the image restraint of iwc is exactly why i like them. They are just trying to make high quality watches. Their brand identity exists behind a veil that opens up to you when you get to know the brand better. Theyre not in your face. And isnt that already an asset for a high horology watch? Theyre like the anti Rolex.
Excellent video Mike and as always this is thought provoking. I have a philosophical resistance to IWC, so I’ll never own one, but your analysis is thorough, particularly the branding points. The opening question though to paraphrase: ‘How can IWC sell more and command higher prices’ should be flipped in my view. I think many of their watches are overpriced so they need to look at driving sales by adjusting their pricing, catalogue and branding strategy.
as an iwc owner, i agree. some of their pieces are just priced too much
i've got a big boney wrist. Anything that is 46-50mm looks good on my wrist. I love that IWC caters for this, whilst maintaining an elegant look of watches you'dcommonly find in the 34mm range.
management consultant view of the brand :) sizing is critical i agree, if it is off nothing can be done
You're very correct in most of what you say. I do think the Aquatimer is quite unique and special as I own one. Different and extremely legible. Lume could have been better though. Generally their line up is quite good but always room for improvement and innovation. Great video
Excellent observation. I think you hit it on the head. I have walked into an IWC shop the last two times I was in a market for a new watch. They were always very “nice”, but nothing grabbed me like other brands did. I eventually went with other companies.
Mike, I’ve recently seen a few of your videos on YT and I must compliment you on being a fantastic reviewer! 👏🏻🥳🎉 Your content is pure, uncluttered and and really insightful, yet so simple! Excellent stuff! 🎊👏🏻😊 Keep up your excellent work and I look forward to enjoying your content - you’ve now got an ardent follower in India! 🇮🇳🤩
Thanks for the kind words 😀😀😀
As always a great thoughtful video. You have the best channel on watches, hands down. Thanks.
Appreciate that ❤️❤️
1. The Pilot is their only recognizable model outside enthusiasts.
B. Over-priced. They really missed a good opportunity on the Ingenieur. The rest? You can't visually tell them apart by model. Remember all the SW200 movements? I do.
III. No real marketing. Aquatimer & Portuguesieur don't have anything behind them.
I want to like IWC but they need to get a grip.
IWC is for certain types. Pretty straightforward,no BS.
I'm happy w my pieces.
I ordered in a Pilot’s Chrono to my local Goldsmiths to view with the aim of walking out with it. I didn’t, the finish wasn’t what I’d expect from a watch at that price. I did however look at a Speedmaster, a Black Bay ceramic and a Black Bay chrono in the shop and was impressed with all three. I now own all three and still don’t own an IWC….
Was interested in a Pilot Chrono Top Gun for some time but ultimately decided on the Black Bay Ceramic as well. Similar looks (ceramic, all black, sporty, oversized strap) for less than half the price
@@matthias8574
IWC make lovely watches but they are too expensive compared to the competition. I actually think the new Chrono Performance may be my first IWC but I’ll need to mentally justify the price before I go to try one on…
Glad you’re happy with the Tudor, great watch.
As a corporate strategy and product pricing professional and mild watch enthusiast, this is a very good video.
I’m also in the market for a $10k-ish steel integrated watch, like the Ingenieur, GP Laureato, Bulgari Octo Finissimo, etc.
As many have noted, the Ingenieur is probably $2-4k overpriced at retail for an unspectacular movement, no display case back, just a Genta linked heritage. They made the classic mistake of, at best, thinking they were undercutting GP’s Laureato while failing to acknowledge the Zenith Defy Skyline, a far cheaper watch that, absent the dumb 10-second subdial, is a comparative steal.
TLDR: never let the C-suite or marketing team have final say on product pricing; both groups near always get it wrong. (Fortunately, all of these watches are selling for discounts on the secondary market)
Also: Nailed it on product/market fit, poor timing/late to market, inexplicable go-to-market strategy, and schizophrenic brand strategy/marketing.
High praise from a pro in the field - Thanks a ton 😀😀
Agree on the C-suite piece 😀
You're absolutely correct. The marketing strategy with this company is as off as any company in the world. IWC should be at the top of the food chain, period. Up until now, I had never taken them seriously. That has all changed for me now. Thanks for educating me on this company.
I'd love to hear a discussion video like this one about Panerai. I think they share similar struggles as brands.
Ahh Panerai... GReat for a while and then everybody kind of forgot about them 😀😀
I own an entry level IWC which I absolutely love. I was extremely enthusiastic when I bought it and felt like the quality of finishing, bracelet and clasp were very high and much better than comparably priced Rolex and grand Seiko models I'd handled and considered.
I felt excited about the idea of buying other models up the range in the future. And then I saw the huge price jumps and lost that desire.
I'd rather save for something more distinctive like a GO, VC or even a Lange (one of these days) than spring so much for something that feels very similar to what I already own.
Thanks again for your vid, Mike. You really like the shirt, don't you? I came really close to buying a Spitfire once but holding it in my hand, it looked like a Hamilton Khaki for 8x the price 🤣
I find something that works and tend to stick with it 😊
Never really thought about them so looked up the website to see what they offer. The Mark XX is the only one that would get any wrist time. You hit the nail on the head, they make nice watches and I could afford to buy one but I'd have to love it to spend best part of £6000 on any watch. Once you have a few watches you're happy with getting someone to spend a lot of money on a watch means its got to be really special. Rolex manage the trick by persuading people that having one demonstrates the owner is special.
Excellent quality watches with great designs and heritage. I believe the problem is that IWC hasn't been able to communicate correctly their intention and concept, that is why there is a misunderstanding about sizing and pricing. The new Ingenieur is the perfect example and since they don't know how to appeal to new customers; until they don't change their sizing or pricing this perception will continue. IWC is trapped and don't see it.
I'm a fan of the Ingenieur as well, but for roughly $5000 Australian more than a 40mm Explorer decided on the Rolex. If the Ingenieur was in the 14 to 14.5 thousand Australian dollar range I'd probably gone for it.