Owned a Blackmagic Production 4k and an original Pocket. I love BM cameras and the image they created. And yes I agree... best interface in the business.
When measuring DR you measure S/N level at pixel level, while I'll be happy if you measure at Image (downscaled to Full HD) level also. It will give at least one more stop to your measurments. Lots of people shoot 4K, but edit in FullHD.
I am not sure why did you choose the PRORES file in order to measure the DR .... Isn't it suppose that the RAW file always offers the most DR from the sensor ? I think that the gap (in dynamic range) of Blackmagic VS the BEST mirrorless cameras of CaNikon , Sony and Panasonic is MORE than 2 stops , if you measure the DR in a different way. Other than this small observation , i find your review EXCELLENT. Thank you for your time as well as your work.
Thanks for your comment! Actually, we got a lot better DR results on ProRes with this camera as opposed to RAW. We reached out to Blackmagic Design for an explanation and received a satisfying answer, and Gunther even had a few calls with them about this to explain. QUESTION by Gunther to Blackmagic Design: We have recently tested the BMPCC4K dynamic range using a Xyla DSC labs 21 transmissive chart, and we stumbled across a strange behaviour of the camera: - we tested in ProRes 4K DCI 25p and got 11.6 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 2, and 12.7 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 1 at ISO 400 (10.5 and 11.8 stops for ISO3200) - when we tested the same DCI 4K 25p RAW (1:1) we found that the dynamic range reading was lower (by about a half stop). Only when we selected the "highlight recovery" option in DaVinci Resolve and then exported frame grabs into IMATEST we got similar results to ProRes. This is a bit strange, because we tested also the old Pocket Cinema Camera and it had the same dynamic range reading in ProRes and RAW - and when we enabled the "highlight recovery" option in Resolve, we actually got about 0.6 stops higher DR in RAW that with ProRes. How come that the DR of the new Pocket 4K is lower in RAW, and only matched ProRes when "highlight recovery" is selected in Resolve? Is ProRes doing this HL recovery automatically? ANSWER from Blackmagic Design, Andy Buckland: The Pocket Cinema Camera 4K uses our new demosaic algorithm developed with Blackmagic RAW, before encoding to ProRes. This new algorithm helps to reduce noise and improve the dynamic range in ProRes capture. With Cinema DNG RAW, the demosaic is still performed in DaVinci Resolve. That enables full control and manipulation over debayer settings, noise reduction, and highlight recovery to increase the dynamic range measurement beyond that of ProRes. By applying minimal temporal noise reduction to the Cinema DNG RAW files in DaVinci Resolve - the lower steps on the waveform can be cleaned up nicely, bringing the available dynamic range of RAW in line with those seen in your ProRes tests. Then by enabling highlight recovery, the available dynamic range in Cinema DNG RAW increases beyond that of ProRes. ProRes users benefit from the new debayer algorithm in terms of dynamic range and reduced noise at capture, resulting in a faster turnaround. RAW users benefit from the full control and manipulation of the image, to decide which parameters they would like to tweak and finesse.
From their original bmpcc tests there were no difference between Raw and Prores, Raw allowed them to recover 0.6 of a stop digitally in resolve with it's highlight recovery feature but using that turned the highlights a pinkish colour. Since it's a test of the sensor not how well resolve can create highlights either prores or raw work. This just goes to show how little black magic holds back, the Raw has more dynamic range really comes from stills cameras hampering their video features.
@@CineD wait, so you're saying that highlight recovery makes the raw file have the same dynamic range as prores. But Blackmagic design says that with highlight recovery you get better DR in raw than in prores. Which one is accurate?
Some people say, there is one stop more of DR after update to BRAW on URSA mini pro. Btw Prores make some denoise before it is saved and use new alghorithm. So I hope update for Pocket BRAW will be soon and you can test again.
Well, I didn't request the dynamic range comparison (I'm new to this channel) but I love it because I needed it and I didn't find it anywhere else. Best first impression I have ever seen. Subscribed...
Prores closes it's clips every 5 seconds, so the most you will lose is the last 5 seconds of your clip. Raw saves individual frames so you'l only lose a single frame.
Nice work. I read that dynamic range article yesterday (which is great - the best testing I've seen) and was gutted the P4K wasn't on it, and today here it is!
This collection is taking the form of an anthology of poems. Each an opportunity to pause, reflect - and escape to a personal and intimate inner world.
The inputs and outputs on this alone make it much more usable as a cinema camera than a DSLR. This camera will have better low light performance than any similarly priced DSLR. No DSLR in this price range is going to give you the option to shoot 120fps. I'm not sure any of them will let you shoot 4k 60fps either. Unless you need a DSLR for still photography, there's really no reason not to go with this setup.
Those ungraded shots in the opening are beautiful! The colours and exposure looks so great. Is it possible to have a look at those shots in full 4K, or with high bitrate? RUclips seems to have substantially compressed the shadows. It's difficult to fully appreciate the quality I think.
Hey cuckoo, I'll upload them in the coming days when I have time after my shoots. Will post the links inside the written review on www.cinema5d.com and here. Nino
I never really get why people would want to see ungraded footage on youtube. I find it hard to judge and its not supposed to look good is it? Downloading and grading it yourself is something else of course.
Richtig cooles review und es ist wirklich angenehm zu sehen das nicht nur deutsche oder Amerikanische RUclipsr sich dafür interessieren. Es ist auch wirklich schön solche Bilder von der Stadt in der man lebt zu sehen.
You can always add a V-Mount option for sure, but you lose the advantage of the small form factor, ESPECIALLY with the original Pocket cam. What's the point then? You could easily grab a bigger camera with a better integrated battery in that case. Nino
It’s not crazy heavy with the v-mount battery. I personally would use a v-mount battery with any camera just because it can power the camera for way longer and if I have a monitor and or wireless follow focus with it I can power everything off of one battery. I hate having to stop and run back for a battery. I’d rather keep moving then having to take breaks.
It is a CINEMA camera. Not an idiot autofocus vlogger camera. I think it was a HUGE mistake to include any autofocus at all. No other cinema camera has autofocus. This should be compared to Ursa Mini Pro, Red and Alexa, not vlogger photo cameras. One really disabling feature of this camera is that it does not have SDI output - it only has HDMI. The HDMI is 1080p only but this is not the problem. The problem is if you want to connect a wireless transmitter to pull focus remotely, HDMI has latency. Ursa Mini Pro has 2 SDIs and doesn´t have latency. In my opinion, this is the only and single problem of this camera, and distances it from Alexa or RED. BUT, I have yet to try pulling focus over HDMI, maybe this is why they limited it to 1080p-for latency.
C200 has brilliant AF. Or is that not considered a good cinema camera in your opinion. With the kind of size and price this camera is for, its ideal for run and gun or one man band production people. I had to go for a GH5 because the inbody stabilization is so amazing I can shoot concerts hand held with a sigma 18 35 and pull focus manually. Good AF (phase detection) would mean I could slap the BMPCC on a gimbal and touch to focus whenever people are moving around. You have to understand that Good AF is not only helpful for vloggers, but for cinematography as well especially when you dont have dedicated people to pull focus etc. I think a version of this camera with a tilt screen (not a swivel) phase detection AF and IBIS (even if they had to slightly crop the sensor) like the GH5 for 2000$ would destroy most of the competition. it would be the ultimate run and gun cinema camera.
While it does brand itself a "cinema" camera, it still falls in the $1000-$2000 mirrorless price range so that is what it is competing with. Solid video autofocus is something that other cameras that the BMPCC4K is in competition with offer. Black Magic is clearly aware of this because they put autofocus in the camera. If you don't need it for your work that's cool, but many people that will be looking at getting one are low budget filmmakers and film students who do most of the jobs on set by themselves. Having reliable video autofocus is incredibly helpful in those situations, not to mention how useful it is in docs and live event shooting. Nobody is an idiot for having different needs from you.
As one can change the ISO and White Balance with any variant of RAW clips being played back internally on a Blackmagic camera having those displayed during playback can be quite useful for shot setting evaluation.
thank you for the effort and the sharing. i played with the bmpcc4k at b&h and very much liked the ergos. i look forward to battery solutions that folks come up with. as to recording media, how fast does the cf fast, sd and external drive have to be? would an external 1tb ssd be enough for a day's shoot at prores? thumbs up.
My camera turn off when is 1% with Patona Bateries. "Original" battery included with camera doesnt show percent (probably doesnt have chip) and it is divided to 4 parts on battery display. So I think it depend which batteries you use and if they are shitty like battery included.
Nice review! Maybe it is also nice to mention the dynamic range of the higher level camera? Such as Ursa mini Pro or maybe some other company to have an impression?
Nice early review of the new BMPCC4K. As the reviews start piling up in the days and weeks ahead it will be interesting to see how the rig performs in various situations and in the hands of people of many different levels of filmmaking expertise. Interesting results with your methodology of measuring dynamic range. It might be below the 13 DR as advertised by BM but it's still pretty impressive as compared to the competition.
Hey! I really appreciate your explanation of the dynamic range tests. Have you measured the dynamic range of the BM Production Camera 4K this way? I’m thinking of upgrading from that to the Pocket but am curious how much improvement there is in dynamic range. I looked on your website but didn’t find it.
The link is on the text above! The Pocket 4K is about half a stop better in DR than the original Pocket. 11.6 stops is our result for the Pocket 4K. Nino
13:45 Personally think the Sony A7sII appears to have more stops since the first two stops in their test are not washed out and could possibly been included. GH5 is at least one stop more too.
A cinema-camera does not need Auto-Focus. Let's take that little bit of AF as free bee bonus. Free bee bonus that I cannot enjoy because all my lenses are manual focus. Also, for serious 4K works one needs at list 7inch/HD monitoring. The onboard screen is meant to be used for selecting camera controls. It's nice that we could use the builtin screen when it's convenient for non-crucial takes
It's hard to argue like that when you have professional cinema cameras like Canon Cinema cameras with amazing AF now. Just because it says "cinema camera" doesn't mean it shouldn't have features that come from broadcast, for example. Or why did they put ND's natively into the Sony Venice, their top model cinema camera? That's also a "broadcast feature". These divisions are blurring and for a good reason. Standards are rising and the competition gets fiercer among camera companies. Nino
@@CineD I'm with you on the case of inbuilt ND filters so long as it's mechanically operated and controlled by me - the operator of the camera. When it comes to " Automatically Focusing " in my experience(s) has been nothing but unreliable. Yes they do " Automatically focus ' but not necessarily on the subject and when I ( the operator ) need it to do so and then stay in focus for as long as I want/need to. I don't care if Canon is a major sponsor or not, while almost everyday we miss a Manual focus pulling ( wireless these days ) and getaway with the retake the shot, I have not found the words to excuse my failed take of a scene to the director based on the fact that the perceived " Perfect Canon Automatic Focusing " did it! As a matter of fact The Automatic Focusing ability of the camera is the first thing we shut down if the camera with that feature is forced upon the production. YMMV
Actually, we got a lot better DR results on ProRes with this camera as opposed to RAW. We reached out to Blackmagic Design for an explanation and received a satisfying answer, and Gunther even had a few calls with them about this to explain. QUESTION by Gunther to Blackmagic Design: We have recently tested the BMPCC4K dynamic range using a Xyla DSC labs 21 transmissive chart, and we stumbled across a strange behaviour of the camera: - we tested in ProRes 4K DCI 25p and got 11.6 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 2, and 12.7 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 1 at ISO 400 (10.5 and 11.8 stops for ISO3200) - when we tested the same DCI 4K 25p RAW (1:1) we found that the dynamic range reading was lower (by about a half stop). Only when we selected the "highlight recovery" option in DaVinci Resolve and then exported frame grabs into IMATEST we got similar results to ProRes. This is a bit strange, because we tested also the old Pocket Cinema Camera and it had the same dynamic range reading in ProRes and RAW - and when we enabled the "highlight recovery" option in Resolve, we actually got about 0.6 stops higher DR in RAW that with ProRes. How come that the DR of the new Pocket 4K is lower in RAW, and only matched ProRes when "highlight recovery" is selected in Resolve? Is ProRes doing this HL recovery automatically? ANSWER from Blackmagic Design, Andy Buckland: The Pocket Cinema Camera 4K uses our new demosaic algorithm developed with Blackmagic RAW, before encoding to ProRes. This new algorithm helps to reduce noise and improve the dynamic range in ProRes capture. With Cinema DNG RAW, the demosaic is still performed in DaVinci Resolve. That enables full control and manipulation over debayer settings, noise reduction, and highlight recovery to increase the dynamic range measurement beyond that of ProRes. By applying minimal temporal noise reduction to the Cinema DNG RAW files in DaVinci Resolve - the lower steps on the waveform can be cleaned up nicely, bringing the available dynamic range of RAW in line with those seen in your ProRes tests. Then by enabling highlight recovery, the available dynamic range in Cinema DNG RAW increases beyond that of ProRes. ProRes users benefit from the new debayer algorithm in terms of dynamic range and reduced noise at capture, resulting in a faster turnaround. RAW users benefit from the full control and manipulation of the image, to decide which parameters they would like to tweak and finesse.
What do ya'll think, when is BM releasing the follow up of the pocket WITH ND filter and flip screen as they did with the URSA and half a yr later they released the the pro version with all the fixes?
6 лет назад+23
This camera is all about RAW! :) People are using BMPCC4K in prores just to compare with other cameras, because else they couldn't compare it .. :))) Digital negative or RAW files will eat every non raw recording camres out on the field... no mini XLR, no 5 inch display, no SSD recording, no lut features, no dual iso on any other micro sensor cameras, and they are much more expencive then the BMPCC4K... so this is like comparing a dead horse with a live horse BUT we can't compare it... then we kill it so it is comparable... FUK it. daaaaaaaaa.
In their test ISO400 would show better DR as ISO400 uses ISO800 but pulls it down 1 stop, effectivly increasing DR in their test as it becomes less noisy. They didnt apply this same methedology to the BM camera though, as they used ISO400 and IS3200 instead of ISO100 and ISO1250.
I don't know what to say about that AF issue. Most cinematographers won't use AF at all especially if you are using cinema lenses however, considering the price point, this camera seems to be aimed at filmmakers who want to step up their game and these people are mostly reliant to speedy AF. I guess this camera could be a good camera for learning focus racking.
Should make it possible to power it the same way Panasonic GH2 does. A batterysized plastic-thingy, that fits in the battery compartment and is powered through a cable.
Great review. After many stumbles, glitches, and releasing products in beta, it seems like BMD finally delivered in spades. Well, as long as you're willing to wait a little while. LOL. Still, looks like dollar for dollar, feature to feature, the best camera in existence.
Hello Nino, I was chacking your DR past tests and I found that you tested the URSA Mini 4.6K at ISO 1600, considering it to be native, which is wrong since it is ISO 800. Could you please test that again with the correct parameters, maybe with the URSA Mini Pro?
I skipped around this review (so much information I could’ve read off the b&h spec sheet) so I might’ve just missed it but did they mention skin tones once? 🤔
I'm guessing they will say no.. seeing that the GH5s is rated about 14 stops with vlog... and they said it is 10.5.... i dont believe my hears on this one
I just got my pocket 4K. I feel very underwhelmed by it. the image is softer than the 2.5k. I'm using voightlander and zeiss primes. With my 2.5k they gave a certain 3D pop to the image because of the quality rendering. A subject placed against a background looked as if it were cut out and put there. But with the Soft 4K pocket, I don't get that effect. This doesn't feel like an upgrade, it feels like a side step.
The camera does not need a sterile 5-axis stabilizer! I'm already sick of the perfect horizon lines. The camera should breathe and not be in a digital cage! So far so good! Thank you Black Magic and cinema5D!
Hi Eddie. Please head to our recent DR test article: www.cinema5d.com/the-cinema5d-camera-lab-is-back-dynamic-range-tests/ Look for "Image Downscaling". Hope you can find an answer to your question there. Thank you Johnnie
Just got the cam. The plastic lid for the battery compartment pops out very easily, just pressing the handle more tightly leads to the lid opening. Anyone experienced same issue with it? The lid doesn’t look faulty or anything so I thing it’s a construction issue...
A battery solution is likely coming soon for the pocket 4k. I'm watching this on a 2k monitor and 1080p does not really offer much in quality. The blacks are crushed. You might list this on Vimeo ... it has a better algorithm in transcoding ... me thinks. Can't beat this camera for the cost.
Is it possible to control the camera via ATEM? If yes, how can I focus? Zooming is only possible manual per hand, isn´t it? Thank you for your comments ...
The footage never looks bad, but I haven’t seen it look amazing or beautiful. Anyone making creative stuff yet with it - lots of review footage so far.
After all, while it is not easy to shoot video with my Canon 5D Mark IV, without having all this expensive gear attached to it, I am still finding it having less of really important issues that this Blackmagic Pocket has. Probably, for getting to a really good filmmaking, you need to invest even more money for making this camera really usable. It’s all a business for selling expensive gear! But on the other hand, if you want it all really in one package, buy the Canon XF705, but the price tag is very heavy!
Wait... WHAT? the BMPCC4K has more dynamic range than the Sony A7sII and the GH5s??? Anybody else here find that believable? @cinema5D do y'all have any video clip comparisons online? I have the GH5s and the GH5s from manufacture says about 14 stops or so.. now i know you said in this video you do a different method but how does the BMCC4K have more? by the way with the GH5s low light sensor added?
The GH5s can only do 14 stops in stills mode because it can access the full dynamic range of the sensor. However when you are shooting V-log-L, you are capped at 12 stops because the log profile maxes out at 12 stops. That's why the Pocket 4K can have more dynamic range. As with the Sony A7sII the limited 8-bit codec makes s-log 3 unusable in most situations so you can't maximize the dynamic range capabilities and s-log 2 has been shown in many results to only have around 12 stops, same as the GH5s. And what Cinema 5D did not show here is that RAW actually has more dynamic range in the Highlights, which is what ProAV TV showed in their tests.
Nice review :). Will this camera work with lenses that have built in 5-axis IS?...Will this IS work?. I'm looking at getting this camera and pairing it with the Olympus 12-100mm f4 M.Zuiko PRO Lens. Hope you can help.
@@JackSmith-gv5yw Here is an example with the Panasonic 12-60 the reviewer says basically you get vignetting at about 12-17mm with it -> ruclips.net/video/EHIO5ZmyS1k/видео.html
they give u all kind of frame rates/iso and tech stuff but not a single image is rich and magical like alexa .. i have bmpcc and have tried all kind of luts , it always look faded to me . also motion is unlike ccd , i am happy with what i have for now , unless someone comes with organic sensor which will have lush color and deep blacks.
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I had to pause the video to tell you-- this is the best made, most effective, most efficient and informative video I've ever seen on youtube!
Best review yet of the Pocket4k! Everything a cinematographer needs to know, thank you!
Owned a Blackmagic Production 4k and an original Pocket. I love BM cameras and the image they created. And yes I agree... best interface in the business.
When measuring DR you measure S/N level at pixel level, while I'll be happy if you measure at Image (downscaled to Full HD) level also. It will give at least one more stop to your measurments.
Lots of people shoot 4K, but edit in FullHD.
I am not sure why did you choose the PRORES file in order to measure the DR .... Isn't it suppose that the RAW file always offers the most DR from the sensor ?
I think that the gap (in dynamic range) of Blackmagic VS the BEST mirrorless cameras of CaNikon , Sony and Panasonic is MORE than 2 stops , if you measure the DR in a different way. Other than this small observation , i find your review EXCELLENT. Thank you for your time as well as your work.
Thanks for your comment!
Actually, we got a lot better DR results on ProRes with this camera as opposed to RAW. We reached out to Blackmagic Design for an explanation and received a satisfying answer, and Gunther even had a few calls with them about this to explain.
QUESTION by Gunther to Blackmagic Design:
We have recently tested the BMPCC4K dynamic range using a Xyla DSC labs 21 transmissive chart, and we stumbled across a strange behaviour of the camera:
- we tested in ProRes 4K DCI 25p and got 11.6 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 2, and 12.7 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 1 at ISO 400 (10.5 and 11.8 stops for ISO3200)
- when we tested the same DCI 4K 25p RAW (1:1) we found that the dynamic range reading was lower (by about a half stop). Only when we selected the "highlight recovery" option in DaVinci Resolve and then exported frame grabs into IMATEST we got similar results to ProRes.
This is a bit strange, because we tested also the old Pocket Cinema Camera and it had the same dynamic range reading in ProRes and RAW - and when we enabled the "highlight recovery" option in Resolve, we actually got about 0.6 stops higher DR in RAW that with ProRes.
How come that the DR of the new Pocket 4K is lower in RAW, and only matched ProRes when "highlight recovery" is selected in Resolve? Is ProRes doing this HL recovery automatically?
ANSWER from Blackmagic Design, Andy Buckland:
The Pocket Cinema Camera 4K uses our new demosaic algorithm developed with Blackmagic RAW, before encoding to ProRes. This new algorithm helps to reduce noise and improve the dynamic range in ProRes capture. With Cinema DNG RAW, the demosaic is still performed in DaVinci Resolve. That enables full control and manipulation over debayer settings, noise reduction, and highlight recovery to increase the dynamic range measurement beyond that of ProRes.
By applying minimal temporal noise reduction to the Cinema DNG RAW files in DaVinci Resolve - the lower steps on the waveform can be cleaned up nicely, bringing the available dynamic range of RAW in line with those seen in your ProRes tests. Then by enabling highlight recovery, the available dynamic range in Cinema DNG RAW increases beyond that of ProRes.
ProRes users benefit from the new debayer algorithm in terms of dynamic range and reduced noise at capture, resulting in a faster turnaround.
RAW users benefit from the full control and manipulation of the image, to decide which parameters they would like to tweak and finesse.
From their original bmpcc tests there were no difference between Raw and Prores, Raw allowed them to recover 0.6 of a stop digitally in resolve with it's highlight recovery feature but using that turned the highlights a pinkish colour. Since it's a test of the sensor not how well resolve can create highlights either prores or raw work.
This just goes to show how little black magic holds back, the Raw has more dynamic range really comes from stills cameras hampering their video features.
@@Ryan-Payne Written review here now: www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-4k-handson-review/
@@CineD wait, so you're saying that highlight recovery makes the raw file have the same dynamic range as prores. But Blackmagic design says that with highlight recovery you get better DR in raw than in prores. Which one is accurate?
Some people say, there is one stop more of DR after update to BRAW on URSA mini pro. Btw Prores make some denoise before it is saved and use new alghorithm. So I hope update for Pocket BRAW will be soon and you can test again.
I wonder if I'll still be alive by the time BMD actually sends me my unit 🤔
haha
This is so deep 😑😐😑
Haha... If you die before, can you leave it to me in your will?
me too. Been waiting about a month now
they started shipping thousands this week
14:50 Yes, thank you, Gunther, for the dynamic range tests!!! That's exactly what I wanted to know, especially versus the a7S II that I have.
Well, I didn't request the dynamic range comparison (I'm new to this channel) but I love it because I needed it and I didn't find it anywhere else. Best first impression I have ever seen. Subscribed...
Our camera shut down while recording and the clip was saved.
MINE TOO!!! Thank God.
Probably not going to use this camera without an external battery solution...
Was that with a prores clip or a RAW one? With RAW at worst you can really only lose the last frame.
@@thatcherfreeman Mine was Raw... good point.
Prores closes it's clips every 5 seconds, so the most you will lose is the last 5 seconds of your clip. Raw saves individual frames so you'l only lose a single frame.
Nice work. I read that dynamic range article yesterday (which is great - the best testing I've seen) and was gutted the P4K wasn't on it, and today here it is!
Would be useful to add the results to the DR test page for easy reference (and to show us the DR when UHD is scaled to 1080p)
The technical analysis at the end of the video is the best part. Very good video overall anyway! :D
This collection is taking the form of an anthology of poems. Each an opportunity to pause, reflect - and escape to a personal and intimate inner world.
I'm an amateur filmmaker and this is right in my price range. What are the pros and cons of this versus a DSLR?
The inputs and outputs on this alone make it much more usable as a cinema camera than a DSLR. This camera will have better low light performance than any similarly priced DSLR. No DSLR in this price range is going to give you the option to shoot 120fps. I'm not sure any of them will let you shoot 4k 60fps either.
Unless you need a DSLR for still photography, there's really no reason not to go with this setup.
Having the gentleman at the end talk with a fake German accent was a great touch! Really made it seem like a more scientific review!!
Günther is Austrian from the sound of things :)
ruclips.net/user/cinema5Dnewsabout
Oh yeah...Cinema5D is based in....AUSTRIA.
Those ungraded shots in the opening are beautiful! The colours and exposure looks so great. Is it possible to have a look at those shots in full 4K, or with high bitrate? RUclips seems to have substantially compressed the shadows. It's difficult to fully appreciate the quality I think.
cuckooo, you? here?
Would love to see a 4K version as well. Maybe some unmanipulated ProRes clips to vimeo?
Hey cuckoo, I'll upload them in the coming days when I have time after my shoots. Will post the links inside the written review on www.cinema5d.com and here. Nino
cinema5D thanks! I appreciate it.
I never really get why people would want to see ungraded footage on youtube. I find it hard to judge and its not supposed to look good is it? Downloading and grading it yourself is something else of course.
Richtig cooles review und es ist wirklich angenehm zu sehen das nicht nur deutsche oder Amerikanische RUclipsr sich dafür interessieren.
Es ist auch wirklich schön solche Bilder von der Stadt in der man lebt zu sehen.
I never carried around a backpack of batteries with the OG pocke. V-mount 150-watt battery lasted me all day.
You can always add a V-Mount option for sure, but you lose the advantage of the small form factor, ESPECIALLY with the original Pocket cam. What's the point then? You could easily grab a bigger camera with a better integrated battery in that case. Nino
It’s not crazy heavy with the v-mount battery. I personally would use a v-mount battery with any camera just because it can power the camera for way longer and if I have a monitor and or wireless follow focus with it I can power everything off of one battery. I hate having to stop and run back for a battery. I’d rather keep moving then having to take breaks.
You want a tilt screen, auto focus, long battery life, IBIS, get a DSLR/MIRRORLESS Camera...That camera is a "FILM" camera folks...
Solid review!
Really great review,what is the name of the music used @ 3:39 it is beautiful
It is a CINEMA camera. Not an idiot autofocus vlogger camera. I think it was a HUGE mistake to include any autofocus at all. No other cinema camera has autofocus. This should be compared to Ursa Mini Pro, Red and Alexa, not vlogger photo cameras.
One really disabling feature of this camera is that it does not have SDI output - it only has HDMI. The HDMI is 1080p only but this is not the problem. The problem is if you want to connect a wireless transmitter to pull focus remotely, HDMI has latency. Ursa Mini Pro has 2 SDIs and doesn´t have latency. In my opinion, this is the only and single problem of this camera, and distances it from Alexa or RED. BUT, I have yet to try pulling focus over HDMI, maybe this is why they limited it to 1080p-for latency.
C200 has brilliant AF. Or is that not considered a good cinema camera in your opinion. With the kind of size and price this camera is for, its ideal for run and gun or one man band production people. I had to go for a GH5 because the inbody stabilization is so amazing I can shoot concerts hand held with a sigma 18 35 and pull focus manually. Good AF (phase detection) would mean I could slap the BMPCC on a gimbal and touch to focus whenever people are moving around. You have to understand that Good AF is not only helpful for vloggers, but for cinematography as well especially when you dont have dedicated people to pull focus etc. I think a version of this camera with a tilt screen (not a swivel) phase detection AF and IBIS (even if they had to slightly crop the sensor) like the GH5 for 2000$ would destroy most of the competition. it would be the ultimate run and gun cinema camera.
While it does brand itself a "cinema" camera, it still falls in the $1000-$2000 mirrorless price range so that is what it is competing with. Solid video autofocus is something that other cameras that the BMPCC4K is in competition with offer. Black Magic is clearly aware of this because they put autofocus in the camera. If you don't need it for your work that's cool, but many people that will be looking at getting one are low budget filmmakers and film students who do most of the jobs on set by themselves. Having reliable video autofocus is incredibly helpful in those situations, not to mention how useful it is in docs and live event shooting. Nobody is an idiot for having different needs from you.
"Not an idiot autofocus vlogger camera" some people in these forums...
@@Photographicelements not true at all. You can lock the focus one one subject and you can choose when it will go to a different subject.
The C200 and C700 would like a word with you
the last part is the most interesting, wow!
Awesome precised review! Loved it! I will wait when the camera gets a better version 😊
The clip actually is there! Saw a few tests out there now....
As one can change the ISO and White Balance with any variant of RAW clips being played back internally on a Blackmagic camera having those displayed during playback can be quite useful for shot setting evaluation.
Thanks a lot for DR measurement. Seeing a chart of popular cams would be awesome!
Also interesting, if external recs like Atomos can improve DR
We're working on displaying all our DR results from all tested cameras in a nice interactive table on our site!
Brilliant, thanks for making this, but is it worth it for the money?
I think its save to say that this camera is a great deal, even without af and ibis. The codecs and then the whole software package, are you kidding?
What lens did you use in this video? It looks good
Excellent video with clear English comments.
DUDE! - Amazing review :O Thank you so much for making this
VideoDrone thanks man :) Nino
What mic were you using here? Great review, thanks!
thank you for the effort and the sharing. i played with the bmpcc4k at b&h and very much liked the ergos. i look forward to battery solutions that folks come up with. as to recording media, how fast does the cf fast, sd and external drive have to be? would an external 1tb ssd be enough for a day's shoot at prores? thumbs up.
Do Gunther's glasses have a test chart embedded on the temples?... that is great!
Great feedback. A lot of hate for a camera that costs half of my GH5 and its successor.
Very good information on the dynamic range. Thumbs up !!
My camera turn off when is 1% with Patona Bateries. "Original" battery included with camera doesnt show percent (probably doesnt have chip) and it is divided to 4 parts on battery display. So I think it depend which batteries you use and if they are shitty like battery included.
Have you tested the dynamic range of an Alexa, or any Red camera? It would be interesting to see how big the difference would be to this camera...
Nice review! Maybe it is also nice to mention the dynamic range of the higher level camera? Such as Ursa mini Pro or maybe some other company to have an impression?
Chenny Ye叶倩甫 the Sony A7III
Nice early review of the new BMPCC4K. As the reviews start piling up in the days and weeks ahead it will be interesting to see how the rig performs in various situations and in the hands of people of many different levels of filmmaking expertise. Interesting results with your methodology of measuring dynamic range. It might be below the 13 DR as advertised by BM but it's still pretty impressive as compared to the competition.
Greetings from Seychelles, Excellent review thanks.
Thank you Bernard!
Where can I get glasses like Gunther's? Does the right side have a color chart? I need these!
Why not do a test with highlight recovery in raw to see how far the image can be pushed, and then compare that to other cameras?
What lens did you use?
Hey! I really appreciate your explanation of the dynamic range tests. Have you measured the dynamic range of the BM Production Camera 4K this way? I’m thinking of upgrading from that to the Pocket but am curious how much improvement there is in dynamic range. I looked on your website but didn’t find it.
The link is on the text above! The Pocket 4K is about half a stop better in DR than the original Pocket. 11.6 stops is our result for the Pocket 4K. Nino
Great video. Gunther looks like David Letterman.
El mejor review que he visto hasta el momento. Muchas gracias
13:45 Personally think the Sony A7sII appears to have more stops since the first two stops in their test are not washed out and could possibly been included. GH5 is at least one stop more too.
Very interesting, especially the dynamic range test. Thanks a lot.
A cinema-camera does not need Auto-Focus. Let's take that little bit of AF as free bee bonus. Free bee bonus that I cannot enjoy because all my lenses are manual focus. Also, for serious 4K works one needs at list 7inch/HD monitoring. The onboard screen is meant to be used for selecting camera controls. It's nice that we could use the builtin screen when it's convenient for non-crucial takes
It's hard to argue like that when you have professional cinema cameras like Canon Cinema cameras with amazing AF now. Just because it says "cinema camera" doesn't mean it shouldn't have features that come from broadcast, for example. Or why did they put ND's natively into the Sony Venice, their top model cinema camera? That's also a "broadcast feature". These divisions are blurring and for a good reason. Standards are rising and the competition gets fiercer among camera companies. Nino
@@CineD I'm with you on the case of inbuilt ND filters so long as it's mechanically operated and controlled by me - the operator of the camera. When it comes to " Automatically Focusing " in my experience(s) has been nothing but unreliable. Yes they do " Automatically focus ' but not necessarily on the subject and when I ( the operator ) need it to do so and then stay in focus for as long as I want/need to. I don't care if Canon is a major sponsor or not, while almost everyday we miss a Manual focus pulling ( wireless these days ) and getaway with the retake the shot, I have not found the words to excuse my failed take of a scene to the director based on the fact that the perceived " Perfect Canon Automatic Focusing " did it! As a matter of fact The Automatic Focusing ability of the camera is the first thing we shut down if the camera with that feature is forced upon the production. YMMV
agreed just like a cineam camera also doesnt need 5 axis IBS.. people complain so much when GH5s didnt come with it.. ITS A CINEMA CAMERA DUDES.
The Filmconvert profile seems kinda off. Clips highlights, crushes shadows and puts a magenta tint on the picture.
Figured out I have to use a CST and convert to Gamma to ARRI Log C to make it work properly.
Thanks for the video. Would the dynamic range test be different in raw rather than prores?
Actually, we got a lot better DR results on ProRes with this camera as opposed to RAW. We reached out to Blackmagic Design for an explanation and received a satisfying answer, and Gunther even had a few calls with them about this to explain.
QUESTION by Gunther to Blackmagic Design:
We have recently tested the BMPCC4K dynamic range using a Xyla DSC labs 21 transmissive chart, and we stumbled across a strange behaviour of the camera:
- we tested in ProRes 4K DCI 25p and got 11.6 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 2, and 12.7 stops for a signal to noise ratio of 1 at ISO 400 (10.5 and 11.8 stops for ISO3200)
- when we tested the same DCI 4K 25p RAW (1:1) we found that the dynamic range reading was lower (by about a half stop). Only when we selected the "highlight recovery" option in DaVinci Resolve and then exported frame grabs into IMATEST we got similar results to ProRes.
This is a bit strange, because we tested also the old Pocket Cinema Camera and it had the same dynamic range reading in ProRes and RAW - and when we enabled the "highlight recovery" option in Resolve, we actually got about 0.6 stops higher DR in RAW that with ProRes.
How come that the DR of the new Pocket 4K is lower in RAW, and only matched ProRes when "highlight recovery" is selected in Resolve? Is ProRes doing this HL recovery automatically?
ANSWER from Blackmagic Design, Andy Buckland:
The Pocket Cinema Camera 4K uses our new demosaic algorithm developed with Blackmagic RAW, before encoding to ProRes. This new algorithm helps to reduce noise and improve the dynamic range in ProRes capture. With Cinema DNG RAW, the demosaic is still performed in DaVinci Resolve. That enables full control and manipulation over debayer settings, noise reduction, and highlight recovery to increase the dynamic range measurement beyond that of ProRes.
By applying minimal temporal noise reduction to the Cinema DNG RAW files in DaVinci Resolve - the lower steps on the waveform can be cleaned up nicely, bringing the available dynamic range of RAW in line with those seen in your ProRes tests. Then by enabling highlight recovery, the available dynamic range in Cinema DNG RAW increases beyond that of ProRes.
ProRes users benefit from the new debayer algorithm in terms of dynamic range and reduced noise at capture, resulting in a faster turnaround.
RAW users benefit from the full control and manipulation of the image, to decide which parameters they would like to tweak and finesse.
Written review here now: www.cinema5d.com/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-4k-handson-review/
What do ya'll think, when is BM releasing the follow up of the pocket WITH ND filter and flip screen as they did with the URSA and half a yr later they released the the pro version with all the fixes?
This camera is all about RAW! :) People are using BMPCC4K in prores just to compare with other cameras, because else they couldn't compare it .. :))) Digital negative or RAW files will eat every non raw recording camres out on the field... no mini XLR, no 5 inch display, no SSD recording, no lut features, no dual iso on any other micro sensor cameras, and they are much more expencive then the BMPCC4K... so this is like comparing a dead horse with a live horse BUT we can't compare it... then we kill it so it is comparable... FUK it. daaaaaaaaa.
Thanks for the review!Just a note....Gh5s native iso in vlog-l is 800 not 400
In their test ISO400 would show better DR as ISO400 uses ISO800 but pulls it down 1 stop, effectivly increasing DR in their test as it becomes less noisy. They didnt apply this same methedology to the BM camera though, as they used ISO400 and IS3200 instead of ISO100 and ISO1250.
Gotta love a review that opens with 90% out of focus frames.
Would you be ready to take it apart? Document the teardown. I am sure it is possible to modify it so you get a floppy screen. And add some weight.
I don't know what to say about that AF issue. Most cinematographers won't use AF at all especially if you are using cinema lenses however, considering the price point, this camera seems to be aimed at filmmakers who want to step up their game and these people are mostly reliant to speedy AF. I guess this camera could be a good camera for learning focus racking.
I wonder they actually made the camera?? I have been waiting a month
Really good. What lens did you use? Thanks.
Olympus 12-100mm 4? Olympus 25mm 1.2.
Ummm.... where's the 4K option? Other than that, great video!
I came here to see whether it's good for both cinematic shots n vlogging but ended up appreciating how handsome he is.. watched twice...haha!
Rubisco Talks Don’t reduce people to objects - not nice.
Haha I just live around the corner of that place :P Think I saw you the other day
How is it working handheld? Would be awesome to know if you can use it handheld, without to much shaking :)
Should make it possible to power it the same way Panasonic GH2 does. A batterysized plastic-thingy, that fits in the battery compartment and is powered through a cable.
Great review. After many stumbles, glitches, and releasing products in beta, it seems like BMD finally delivered in spades. Well, as long as you're willing to wait a little while. LOL.
Still, looks like dollar for dollar, feature to feature, the best camera in existence.
Question Is....How much?
warnutztheloser $1295
@@IkeyTV not 2 shabby might Buy It
My mate's got the first one in The Netherlands. I tested it.... friggin awesome! (But those filesizes tho, wauwww)
Gunter's analysis on DR was rather interesting
Hello Nino, I was chacking your DR past tests and I found that you tested the URSA Mini 4.6K at ISO 1600, considering it to be native, which is wrong since it is ISO 800. Could you please test that again with the correct parameters, maybe with the URSA Mini Pro?
I skipped around this review (so much information I could’ve read off the b&h spec sheet) so I might’ve just missed it but did they mention skin tones once? 🤔
Can you use a battery pack or a USB charger to charge power the camera or are the LPE6 batteries the only think that can power it.
A tilt rear screen would have been handy.
Very well done and informative, big thumb up
Nice review!
Thanks for your huge help on this, Stefan! You're the maaaaan!!! Nino
I'm at a debacle to resolve. The Black Magic 4k or the Panasonic Lumix S1, or the Fuji X-H1.
What about URSA mini Pro 4.6K dynamic range? Does it really has 15 stop of dynamic range?
I'm guessing they will say no.. seeing that the GH5s is rated about 14 stops with vlog... and they said it is 10.5.... i dont believe my hears on this one
Is it available in India?
Excellent video.
Can you use this body only? or do you need to add a lens to this? The cameras being sold in the UK are body only.
Hey ! Thanks for the video. What is the lens you use in this video? thanks :)
It says in the video at the bottom of the first shots, for example. It's the Olympus Zuiko 25mm f/1.2 and the Panasonic 12-60 f/2.8-4. Nino
cinema5D Oops sorry I Didnt see ! 🤗
cinema5D if you can do a video about the best lenses for the BMCP4K it would be awesome !
What lens are you using on the pocket camera? Olympus 12-40?
I just got my pocket 4K. I feel very underwhelmed by it. the image is softer than the 2.5k. I'm using voightlander and zeiss primes. With my 2.5k they gave a certain 3D pop to the image because of the quality rendering. A subject placed against a background looked as if it were cut out and put there. But with the Soft 4K pocket, I don't get that effect.
This doesn't feel like an upgrade, it feels like a side step.
The camera does not need a sterile 5-axis stabilizer! I'm already sick of the perfect horizon lines. The camera should breathe and not be in a digital cage! So far so good! Thank you Black Magic and cinema5D!
Does it run hot?
You said Sony A7sII's dynamic range was 12 stops in your June 2016 article comparing the canon 1dc vs canon 1dxmii. Why the change?
Hi Eddie. Please head to our recent DR test article: www.cinema5d.com/the-cinema5d-camera-lab-is-back-dynamic-range-tests/ Look for "Image Downscaling". Hope you can find an answer to your question there.
Thank you
Johnnie
@@CineD that answers my question. Thanks for taking the time to reply with that your team does!
Some panasonic site says native iso in v log is 800/5000 iso
Thank You very much. Thats a very good and helpful review!
do you think this has the same quality of Ursa mini pro?
Just got the cam. The plastic lid for the battery compartment pops out very easily, just pressing the handle more tightly leads to the lid opening. Anyone experienced same issue with it? The lid doesn’t look faulty or anything so I thing it’s a construction issue...
What DR will Sony FS5II and A7III have in Your test?
A battery solution is likely coming soon for the pocket 4k. I'm watching this on a 2k monitor and 1080p does not really offer much in quality. The blacks are crushed. You might list this on Vimeo ... it has a better algorithm in transcoding ... me thinks. Can't beat this camera for the cost.
Is it possible to control the camera via ATEM? If yes, how can I focus? Zooming is only possible manual per hand, isn´t it? Thank you for your comments ...
Which mic r u used for this video...
which gimbal can we use with this?
The footage never looks bad, but I haven’t seen it look amazing or beautiful. Anyone making creative stuff yet with it - lots of review footage so far.
After all, while it is not easy to shoot video with my Canon 5D Mark IV, without having all this expensive gear attached to it, I am still finding it having less of really important issues that this Blackmagic Pocket has. Probably, for getting to a really good filmmaking, you need to invest even more money for making this camera really usable. It’s all a business for selling expensive gear! But on the other hand, if you want it all really in one package, buy the Canon XF705, but the price tag is very heavy!
Wait... WHAT? the BMPCC4K has more dynamic range than the Sony A7sII and the GH5s???
Anybody else here find that believable?
@cinema5D do y'all have any video clip comparisons online? I have the GH5s and the GH5s from manufacture says about 14 stops or so.. now i know you said in this video you do a different method but how does the BMCC4K have more? by the way with the GH5s low light sensor added?
The GH5s can only do 14 stops in stills mode because it can access the full dynamic range of the sensor. However when you are shooting V-log-L, you are capped at 12 stops because the log profile maxes out at 12 stops. That's why the Pocket 4K can have more dynamic range.
As with the Sony A7sII the limited 8-bit codec makes s-log 3 unusable in most situations so you can't maximize the dynamic range capabilities and s-log 2 has been shown in many results to only have around 12 stops, same as the GH5s.
And what Cinema 5D did not show here is that RAW actually has more dynamic range in the Highlights, which is what ProAV TV showed in their tests.
Nice review :). Will this camera work with lenses that have built in 5-axis IS?...Will this IS work?. I'm looking at getting this camera and pairing it with the Olympus 12-100mm f4 M.Zuiko PRO Lens.
Hope you can help.
I have the 12-100 Olympus and it works on the Pocket 4K
@@JamesJacksonFilmz Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
I heard MFT Lesnses like Olympus and Panasonic have Vignetting because the sensor is actually bigger than the MFT standard.
@@tubekrake How noticeable is it?...Because I was looking at the Panasonic 12-35 2.8 as well.
@@JackSmith-gv5yw Here is an example with the Panasonic 12-60 the reviewer says basically you get vignetting at about 12-17mm with it -> ruclips.net/video/EHIO5ZmyS1k/видео.html
You uploaded a review about a 4K camera in HD.....(face palm)..........
Well, good point ... was a mistake, which is why I uploaded the 4K version to Vimeo right after ... link below the video.
they give u all kind of frame rates/iso and tech stuff but not a single image is rich and magical like alexa .. i have bmpcc and have tried all kind of luts , it always look faded to me . also motion is unlike ccd , i am happy with what i have for now , unless someone comes with organic sensor which will have lush color and deep blacks.