Gentrification of Martial Arts | Fight Talk Ep: 6 w/ Icy Mike of Hard2Hurt
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- Will the gentrification of Karate happen to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as well?? Will we have Muay Thai lose its fierce name like Karate and Taekwondo did?? In this episode of Fight Talk, Icy Mike and I talk about what we think will happen to BJJ and other growing martial arts styles.
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So maybe all of these styles are good, until they get transformed and homogenized into a sport form? Until too many people dilute them?
“Good” isn’t a black and white thing too. A lot of martial arts went from being military techniques to a way of bettering yourself.
@@tddraeger That wasn’t the intention. But minimizing racism and attributing it only to Black and White folks is misleading. The title is gentrification of Martial Arts. The wealthier class in America just so happens to be Caucasian. Most of the martial art schools in the United States are owned by Caucasians. No different than in the sports world certain “styles” are praised vs. disparaged.
Jason Everett I didn’t mean black and white as in race. I meant Black and white as in being clear cut vs grey being filled with nuances.
I meant that even a martial art that isn’t as good in the streets isn’t necessarily bad because the intention is to better yourself.
@@tddraeger Cool. I agree with that. But to get back to the topic of video it seems like money has a lot to with how arts are promoted.
"A black belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu is the most meaningful belt." Shit, my brother cried when he got his purple belt.
Hahaha I believe it!
Am crying now for your brother...well done man the advance game is opening up, take care my jits friends
hopefully I'll have the same opportunity to cry as your brother
These virus scares will probably reduce the popularity of BJJ in USA..
I’m (supposed) to get my BJJ black belt next month, but the pandemic says otherwise..
Aikido has remained immune to softening effects of marketing and mass appeal. They accomplished this by being soft from the start.
Lmaoo
Had me at the first half not gunna lie...
Aikido is totally the most practical, proven, and best self defense martial art ever in all circumstances.😉👍
Aikido is a way of life, not a martial art. Most of aikido demos are pure fiction, as the techniques they apply. Even the founder of aikido was known to have mystic powers. You can't put aikido in the same basket as martial arts ho became sport activities🤔
@@sonnygmony are you serious? 90% of aikido practioners can't attack effectively 😱 how the hell can they practice a legit defense?
Karate, when you have legit practitioners, is great martial art. The problem is that only 10% of Dojo's are legit.
Agreed. Find a Kyokushin dojo that trains punches to head and then cross train in Bjj and you’re a walking weapon
Same applies for Taekwondo
BJJ is already well on it's way down the same road Karate and TKD are on.
Back in the 90s, most BJJ class practiced against strikes. Now, hardly anyone does it.
Back in the 90s, any coloured belt in BJJ could do some basic takedowns. Now, you can go from white to black belt in BJJ without being able to do any sort of takedown.
So, today we have BJJ black belts who can't defend against a punch or takedowns.
Personally, I don't think that's a value add.
@@iorekby depends on where you train if they also train mma and the other disciplines wrestling boxing and Muay Thai and most do so should be ok
@@PiffFighting That's true bud.
When anything becomes very popular, it eventually becomes a bit shit.
So true. I imagine Jesus was cool back in the apostle days. Then he got famous post humous and errbody trippin' 🙄
Don’t swear I’m telling mummy
@@Enraged-vu2vb
Sorry, I won't say 'popular' again.
Very true. What happens is the majority of schools will teach the exact same thing, and eventually the guy teaching 15 years later will not have the same standards as the original teachers.
As opposed to Naked Mole Rat fist kung fu, where it's totally legit because no one knows it
I personally tend to compare combat sports (especially MMA) to a Yu-Gi-Oh! match rather than a chess match. In yugioh you both have cards that attack and cards that defend - but there is a difference between how your cards and your opponent’s cards may operate or be played. Also, different moves have different levels of effectiveness, and 7/10 times you can’t really tell what your opponent has within the first 3 minutes of the first round. So you have to use whatever weapons you have at your disposal and the makeup of your deck (gameplan/style) will be weak or strong against your opponent’s arsenal.
So yeah, stop calling it a chess match. Nerds.
Jacob Netzler haha that’s an interesting comparison for sure
Sensei Seth love both of you and your works 🙏🏼🙏🏼 keep it up!!
Jacob Netzler thanks!!
What about when you have no monsters
Gotta Cache ‘em All! Traps, Spells and lots and lots of prayer 😂😂
I believe BJJ will age more like Judo where watered down dojos exist but the overall level just keeps steadily going up.
I mean purple belts nowadays are doing shit black belts in the 90s would have never dreamed of. The standard for athleticism in the sport is also much higher than 20-30 years ago.
Opportunists will always step into any well known trend but the fear that BJJ will get too recreational is largely unfounded.
That’s probably a fair observation, too much info with the internet for it to get quite as bad as Karate
I dunno i deffo see BJJ getting watered down like karate and other arts were
The problem is that BJJ can sometimes get too experimental to work outside of BJJ. There are definitely the grappling equivalents of 540 roundhouse kicks in BJJ. There is also an unfortunately prevalent attitude that strength and conditioning don't matter, or that having and using strength is a bad thing. It's almost as if a lot of BJJ guys don't respect the necessity of strength training
Daniel Hounshell bad analogy. The problem with 540 roundhouse kicks is that they would very very rarely work in any kind of combat situation. They also leave you exposed for getting taken down, knocked out or worse.
‘Sporty’ techniques in bjj must be highly effective for them to remain in the sport. Bjj techniques are constantly pressure tested so while you might be learning some things that aren’t optimal for striking situations, you are always learning techniques that are highly effective in grappling at t he very least.
Also “street” bjj techniques are super basic and everyone knows them by the time you get to blue belt.
@@prandz420 true, but there are some techniques the don't really land even in BJJ competitions, like the Gogolplata. (Not sure if I spelled that right). Those techniques work in theory but are too overly complicated to really be practical even in the context of sport Jiu Jitsu.
Smash that like button, for the little ninja in training in he back ground. She doesn't need a teacher. She's got it by herself....
Hahaha true
Smesh it
Lmfao I thought noone noticed! Starting the fan in stealth mode 😂🤣😭🤣😂🤣😭
How old is that kid? Starting up a metal blade industrial strength fan before balancing unassisted across metal folding chairs in sock feet. Icy Mike is gonna be on a DSS case plan before to long!!
I've met full contact Karate guys and they're awesome. They are still strong and flexible and can kill you. But I've fought the higher belts my age and it disappoints me because I know they aren't letting me win. The older guys fight to win, and if they were still in there 20s they could KO most of today's Karate/TKD black belts. But it makes me sad to see Karate in the 70s compared to Karate today.
Unfortunate
I was there. I began martial arts in 1970, and crossed trained with the other arts, including boxing, (1960), wrestling and judo. I began my path from the age of ten. I knew or met most all of the guys, and see a lot of revisionist history. Today is about points, including penalty points for contact... Hell, you can lose by being stronger. If a fighter gets hit in the face, even by accident, some will cry to the ref. Then the guy who hit, is penalized points for contact. Huh??? Points for being hit? Ok, what fighter of worth would even accept such an unworthy way to win. lol, One day I looked at my black belt ranks and stopped wearing them. Why, because they have no value anymore. My attitude is the belt is not relevant in today's watered-down fake world Full of kick-ass Keyboard warriors.
Back in the old era, guys like Mike Stone, Jim Kelly, Jeff Klein, Joe Louis were pretty tough guys. To see guys rocked hard by a punch or seeing a heel kick wack an opponent in the head or jaw, knocking him out was not unusual back then. Not that it was legal, but karate at the time was a dominant art, with traditions born from Samauri Culture, demanding a focused and tough mind. The traditions and mystique of Asian martial arts bred guys who embraced the warrior aspect. If they got hit, they did not show it, unless the injury was truly debilitating. Compare that to the modern karate that a person can win by being weak... lol, anyone ever see an adult bitch he just got hit? Ok award him a point, so he may win by being inferior..? Welcome to the new world. As for PKA, Benny the 'Jet" Urquidez started as a non-contact karate competitor who ushered in full-contact fighting in the US. I was invited to the first Muay Thai match ever in the United States, in N. Hollywood Ca. What an eye-opener. All of the Kickboxers lost except for Peter Cunningham. Nonfa Sattenglam (phonetic) the undefeated Thai Boxer from Thailand had just arrived and was pure poetry and to say he destroyed the kickboxer was an understatement. He and I became friends and he told me in Thailand, sometimes he / they fought as many as two or three in a night and would often fight in different venues three or so in a month. Amazing to compare to what has evolved in our sanitized version.
@@Chihand I've been largely inactive for years now because my club had to shut down (And other reasons), but we trained in a whole bunch of styles and regularly had semi to full contact sparring days for those who wanted to get fight experience - finding something like that where I live (Rural England) again is basically impossible, even with MMA gyms in the area. My instructor used to compete in bare knuckle events in the 80s and he brought that Thai mentality of having multiple rounds and against multiple opponents in a single session - I really miss it and just can't find anything like it among any club or gym, since even Kyokushin's rules are restrictive compared to those I used to train under. I wish more organisations would grant students the opportunity to fight and test themselves, but it just doesn't seem to happen here.
First time I did ITF Taekwon-Do (2012) there was a 60 year old black belt who was the definition of badass, I was 16 back then and I couldn't belive how fast, strong and flexible that guy was
Karate in the 70s looked shit, not as flamboyant and polished as it does today. But it was more realistic and made you tough, which in turn makes you a better braver fighter. Which is what martial arts is supposed to be about. Not a martial dance that we have today!🙄
The reason it will be harder for BJJ to end up like Karate is that in BJJ, you are rolling 100% against each other all the time, where as in Karate, you can just learn your forms and move on to the next belt. So, in Jiu Jitsu, it's obvious who is progressing and who is not.
Unless sport BJJ gets to a point where it starts denying submissions for the safety of others to make it more accessible to more people... like knee bars.. 😳
@@SenseiSeth even if all submissions were banned, it would just become wrestling. I think what could happen though is schools stop rolling altogether and it becomes Japanese jiu jistu
Yes exactly. Whole argument ended with this comment lol. Same reason boxing and wrestling never turned into bullshido. Karate guys just cut your loss already...
The structure will maintain it karate didn’t have that to really find a hardcore karate gym with hard tournaments that will make you a savage you really gotta go look for it
That's until it reaches the point when it's more being about having as many students as possible for profit. If everyone is equally whack everyone moves on anyway. It's what's been going on with the school system for decades. But from the origins of Brazilian jujitsu it was always intended to be a money grab anyway.
chill conversation after sparring, cracking jokes, an adorable child running around happily on the mats, cozy training studio. Now that's what life is about.
As a black belt in Tae Kwon Do I have to agree with the BJJ black belt meaning more I’ve seen to many ppl have a tkd black belt that in my eyes didn’t need one
Very fair!
Mr. Frank 'forever 40' Garret agreed belts give to many people the idea they can take on anyone. Not saying it’s true for everyone but I noticed it a lot in kids who get there black belt
Mr. Frank 'forever 40' Garret I agree with that I’ve see people for other tkd school who just had the belt given to them, and talked about being able to fight multiple dudes at once.
@Mr. Frank 'forever 40' Garret Depends on the country and organization, I've seen gyms with Kickboxing AND MT belts... Or "self defense world champions"...
In the West (and Brazil), a black belt has the connotation of "mastery," but I find in Asia that is not the case. Two easy examples are TKD in Korea and Judo in Japan. I think as long as the schools (and students) don't market their black belts as symbols of mastery, I don't have a problem with it.
In WTF TKD (the main style in South Korea), a 1st degree black belt does not require mastery, and it is not intended to signify mastery either. No one walks around saying "my black belt implies I'm an expert of this art and I can now start training others to become experts as well." Rather, it signifies familiarity with the basics. None of the requirements for a black belt are difficult, and in Korea I think a lot of people get them within 2 years. It's a lot more like a blue belt in BJJ (or even less).
But the 3rd degree, 4th degree black belts I've seen from Korea are very legit. Not in terms of fighting in an MMA setting, since WTF taekwondo is not designed for MMA or kickboxing (for that matter, neither is ITF taekwondo). But from what I've seen, the 3rd and 4th degree black belts are very high quality. It takes many years to obtain those ranks, and they can perform physical feats of tremendous difficulty, especially the men. In a way it's like watching a gymnast who has trained for 10+ years; neither Taekwondo nor gymnastics are designed for modern fighting sports, but no one can deny the stuff they can do is amazing.
In judo in Japan, black belts similarly don't mean "expert". Some strong athletic guys can literally get a judo black belt in 6 months if they do well in high school competition. Judo is NOT watered down in Japan, it was one of the most hardcore judo countries in the world. But the fact of the matter is it is very easy to get a black belt. No one in Japan considers a 1st dan black belt to be a symbol of mastery.
By the way, I do believe that long-range Taekwondo-style kicks can be applied to MMA -- more so than kickboxing, where the shorter range and square-shaped ring makes the long-distance striking of TKD and Shotokan karate difficult to apply. Many MMA fighters incorporate elements of TKD kicks and point karate's in-and-out footwork and blitzing, even if they still rely on boxing and Muay Thai for core mechanics and combinations. At this time (2020), almost no elite fighters use Taekwondo-style kicks as the core of their striking game, but three notable exceptions are Yair Rodriguez (his kicks are old-school WTF taekwondo), Stephen Thompson, and Ryan Hall (both of these fighters' kicks come from American kickboxing, which is basically the same as ITF taekwondo).
I had a similar argument with my uncle (black belt bjj) when I got my judo brown belt and he was actually saying he had the opposite perception. When people said they had a bjj black belt he'd at least ask from where or whom they graduated before anything. Judo on the other hand, he felt was WAY more structured (at least here in Brazil) with a unified confederation that made solid standards. Here you can get all your belts at your sensei's discretion up until you reach the higher kyuus and the confederation starts tracking at least the time spent in each one. When you apply to your first (and any subsequent) dan, you are evaluated by the local federation's board of multiple dan masters to be awarded your black belt (with several courses, voluntary work and tests throughout the year). Now to be fair, and I agree with my uncle on this one, the first dan in judo does not equal a (legit) first dan in bjj, based on time, knowledge and experience. Things get muddled from the third dan and on, I think. But still, the legitimacy and general recognition of "what a black belt is", to him, was way more established and respected in brazilian judo than bjj.
Good talk. Firas Zahabi said at Joe Rogan podcast that some bjj organizations are giving belts for membership, that’s .. i don’t know how to even call it
Woooahh, I missed that!! Very interesting
Sensei Seth ruclips.net/video/pHvp_hFFY-U/видео.html here you are. Pure shock when i first heard it
Pay-to-Win?
Thas that mcdojo garbage
tprnbs the worst part about that is the fact that one of the schools doing that is a Gracie school. It’s shameful
Icy Mike's daughter playing in the background is so cute and hilarious!
I was just talking to our BJJ instructor about this. He's starting to see 'feel good martial arts' schools in the BJJ community. Its a sad downside of a style gaining rapid popularity. It paves the way for people who are business/money driven more-so than interested in teaching solid martial arts. Great stuff Seth
The folly of capitalism. A quick fix for the fickle.
I hope BJJ and MMA don’t get diluted like karate and some of the others. What’s interesting is that boxing essentially just is split between “fight gyms” and “fitness boxing”. And the fight gyms stay very pure and are almost only people trying to compete, but they are not very marketable or well known to the public, partially out of the need to keep hobbyists who don’t actually want to do boxing.
Putting the name Muay Thai and teach Kickboxing.
First time when I was in the US, I noticed the same thing with Restaurant
like Fusion Asian restaurant, having sushi and then with some wok dishes, people will do many things to keep their business alive.
Yep! Its all about “branding”
The Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has already started to split. There’s Gracie Jiu Jitsu, which focuses more on the self defense aspect and then there’s Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that now seems to focus more on the sport aspect. My opinion.
Yup yup!
No gi Eddie bravo 10th planet
@@andrewgiegerich5526 The sportiest of sport Jiu-Jitsu styles. Try doing that high-level guard work in jeans or fatigues and boots lol
@@WeBreakItAllDownRightHere Keep it basic for fights but learn as much as possible, especially things like berimbolo, which help the sport side of things, its not like it useless any way, you can invert in a street fight if need be, better to know it.
Rickson Gracie would agree with you
As long as gyms continue rolling in every class, it won't change.
Great conversation with solid audio. I love the chemistry between you and Icy Mike. It would be great to see more of these discussion style videos and the length around 10 minutes is perfect.
I do Fight Talks whenever I collab with somebody! I have a whole playlist with it!
I fact, I didn't even realise that his fight talk videos are literally just podcasts and I really don't like podcasts. But I watched all of them till the end
Matt Carlton is that you?
Yup yup! Lol just very short
I love when Mike says Hapkido and a kiddo literally hops by
There will always be recreational practitioners and high level athletes. There is nothing wrong with that.
I love these introspective conversations between you two. You're both extremely knowledgeable as well as humble, friendly, and willing to collaborate and learn off of each other. Excellent example of how people should interact after sparring with each other.. wether absolute beginner or master.
I agree about the BJJ Blackbelt. I've been training over 6 years and I am a purple belt. That is what I love about BJJ. The belts are earned through blood sweat and tears. They are EARNED not given. Good talk guys!
Thanks for watching 🙏
@Adam L I have no idea what you are talking about haha. Wrestlers give white belts a run for their money. I dont know many fat BJJ guys especially at my gym. If you train where I train at least 3x a week you wont be fat. It's not possible unless you eat 6k calories a day.
@Adam L because bjj is a club sport and wrestling is mostly a sport that you have to start very young to be competitive..same as judo...wrestling and judo in many countries is a state sponsored sport where kids are breed since 5 years old with the purposes of winning medals...bjj is a gym sport that everyone can attend in order to lean ground techinque
You have to pay for every letter on the building. Karate is fewer letters than Taekwon Do
Hahaha great point
TKD 👍
Plen122 not everyone will know that TKD means. 🤔
@@-phantastictin-665 true, but maybe they could be convinced it's some kind of weird fantastic new martial art 😁
Judo?
belts in muay thai??? lmao since when has that been a thing?
Usually for kids! They have ties on the arms
Ranking structure has always been a thing in martial arts. Helps to keep folks motivated
@@bw5020 Belts are not a "Muay Thai thing" traditionally though.
@@NakThai How does Muay Thai denote rank or heiarchy in the art? I'm actually curious?
@@bw5020 There's nothing to do that really, at least traditionally that I know of.
The Kyu/Dan belt-system which we now so strongly associate with martial arts is a rather modern invention originating from Judo.
That is not to say that hierarchy doesn't exist in Muay Thai, they just don't have grading the way many Budo arts do.
A person who trains a year in boxing and a year in wrestling can beat any martial artist in a single discipline.
-Bruce Lee
Fine Chariot but where's the horses?
-Arnold Schwarzenegger, another actor
What does this mean senpai! Tell me... TELL MEEEEEEE!
Someone with 2 years in BJJ could beat them if they had good takedowns.
Unfortunately most BJJ gyms don't practice takedowns nearly enough, so yeah by keeping it standing the average fighter with 1 year wrestling and 1 year boxing would probably beat the average 2 year BJJ fighter.
@@Michael-ki5oz 1 year boxing plus 1 year wrestling > than 2 years bjj... easily at that
@@CNote825 what about 1 year bjj + 6 months of wrestling + 6 months of boxing?
Two of my childhood friends got their McDojo karate black belts at 16-17. Me (savate and kickboxing) and another friend (pure mma) decided to spar with them one day on wrestling mats in a garage. They were totally helpless and it was a really humbling moment for them and I felt really lucky my parents sent me to a good kickboxing gym instead of community centre karate with my friends.
At least 5 of the local schools to me that fight in 'Lion Fights Muay Thai' are karate schools that slapped a 'muay thai' sticker on their window. it is really common nowadays.
Blech, dislike that a lot
@@SenseiSeth Not to pick on him specifically, but my man Shaun in this fight, he is a shotokan black belt that trains at an american karate school. ruclips.net/video/rhepc9VBHJc/видео.html
IBJJF already has Mike, they are trying very hard to soften the edges
👏
Exactly, that's why I quit Gracie Barra and join a Gracie JIU-JITSU CTC School.
Yep, because the middle class who wants to compete can't afford to have torn acl's. They need to go to work through next day. Or afford to be slammed on their necks. The idea is that it allows for as much grappling com at realness in the safest context.
Here's the thing though right. The doors of MMA are always open to you. If you want the least amount of rules and are willing to take the risks. Man. Sign up for an AM fight and off you go.
@@shawndesjardins4909 that’s why I am having an MMA fight lol. I understand what you mean tho, but heel hooks and slams are also pretty extreme examples
@@aidanrooney4118 That's what I feel the main limitations of IBJJF are in a grappling context. ADCC that's the main difference, leg locks and slams.
This is the kinda martial arts discussions that I love. Just a couple awesome guys sitting in the floor during/after training and discussing how what martial arts means.
UNDISPUTED TRUTH ! You guys are speaking what needs to be heard worldwide.🙏
👏👏👏
For many years now (about 15-20) there has been a split in Jiu-jitsu. Gracie Jiu-jitsu who's focus is on the actual martial art and self defense. And sport BJJ that has zero focus on using grappling in a real fight. (although there is as with all things a bit of crossover) I personally feel there should be a very clear split and naming difference. Let the sport guys have their 50/50, worm guards, and fun inverted stuff and us Gracie guys will keep our takedowns, punch blocks and basics. For the Gracie based schools we can have a 101 and 201 class. 101 is for the kids, soccer moms and such and 201 for the hardcore old school guys. The sport guys can kill each other cutting it down to the elite of the elite in order to win medals.
I think this approach would make the most sense in terms of keeping Jiu-jitsu honest and not letting it drift into the Judo, TDK world. And for fucks sake stop giving kids black belts!
As a Judo guy, it really hurt me when you said “judo world”, and even tho i truly don’t like the sport part of judo i indeed have to agree with you; most of judo schools today at day train too much for the sport part of it, not training leg grab techniques or not implementing a no gi judo aspect that could be used in an mma scenario or a fight scenario where you wouldn’t like to rip off the other guy’s t-shirt (if they keep it on because some take it out), as well as in the bjj ambit, being honest it hurts me as well when i see bjj practitioners in competiton just pulling guard or straight sitting down and/or scooping their butts across the mats instead of doing any sort of takedown :/
"MMA is like Chess without Pawns" very well said
And around and around it goes. Muay Thai became popular after the movie Kickboxer with Jean-Claude Van Damme and faded. Then everyone wanted to learn Aikido because of Steven Seagal first movie and then every martial arts school start offering BJJ after Ultimate Fighting Championship.
So true. It happens wheb something becomes commercialized.
The reason Muay Thai didn't take off more and plateaued is because it's brutal and there's only so many people who will go through it.
A bit like why bjj is more popular than judo.
As a blue belt (asst coach) in Bang Muay Thai, muay thai fanatic, and also having trained in pure muay thai, I agree that the title seems misleading. HOWEVER, it's not completely pure kickboxing, as there are multiple combinations that include elbows, knees, and clinchwork. Also contributing to the use of muay thai in the title is the fact that founder Duane Ludwig also competed in muay thai, although his muay thai and kickboxing records are all lumped together. So no, it's not pure Muay Thai, but it IS the style he used in muay thai (heavy Dutch kickboxing influence via Bas Rutten) with dramatic improvements in footwork.
Isnt the BMT system just dutch kickboxing?
DILUTED AND DELUDED HAHAHAHA
I lost it, that was so clever!!!
I did BJJ back in AL where we were promoted on skill, technique, etc. When I moved to WA, the last BJJ school I was at, promoted based on attendance I felt like. There were people who I felt like didn’t deserve their belt or was remotely close to it imo. Which is why I left BJJ for boxing. No BS. Love BJJ as an art, but it’s becoming more and more like McDojos.
I think the average of bad dojo’s will never get to where Karate was because of the internet, but it’s still bound to have some bad teachers
Just found your channel again since I switched to my martial arts channel!! You and hard2hurt are my favorites!!
This is already happening. Firas Zhabi talked about it on Joe Rogan podcast. This is why finding a proper school is so important. It’s also why BJJ has started blackbelt checker to ensure there aren’t many handouts.
True 👍
Brazilian jiu jitsu practice the same skill all the time and have it changed. I agree with you as mma grow jiu jitsu will keep being popular. Yet their are still many hybrid arts that go unnoticed such as Kudo. It all comes down to business
Fair enough!!
You guys are always on point. Please keep the content going
This will be the last one with Mike and I for a bit, buttt you’re welcome to watch the stuff I have with Wonderboy and FaZe Sensei posting later this week!
I like how mike kid at back ground is just killing it 😂😂😂😂 and you guys were deep in it
I remember when krav maga was coming up, they were trying to stay away from belt systems. Instead, they used a "4 levels" system. But over time, more so with kids, some schools started using belt systems.
What I think schools amd gyms should start doing, is adding more meaning to the belts they receive from the schools view. I had some belts from taekwondo, but they didnt mean much nor did the instructor give a meaning.
Although, I have one "cord" from capoeira that means more to me, cuz I had to put actual time and effort into it. Not just knowing the moves, but applying them, and also things we had to do outside of class leading up to graduation.
I've never been belted from bjj, but that too would mean more to me, cuz I've put more of my mind and body into it.
As you make it “more for the common public” it inherently has to become easier and more accessible. I’d love to move through the ranks of BJJ too
I think Muay Thai is evolving into MMA but different outcome however it follow the same thing. The Muay Thai I knew before don't use boxing but now they combine boxing with it.
Goes from gym to gym
muay thai has always used boxing gloves since the rules were changed by the thai royal family way back
I LOVE how you keep things simple while doing all of this. The child in the backgrand was so cute😊
Cool convo+perspectives, but I’m loving the primal scream-squeals lol
It has already happened. Popularity always brings mediocrity. Belts are ridiculous to me anyway. Boxers don’t have belts. Wrestling doesn’t have belts. Kickboxing doesn’t have belts. It’s time for belts to go away. They are principally used for a school to make money. Mine were 40 bucks a piece and we had like ten belts. The advanced belts were even more. Much more. And, that was in the late 80s! We had a lot of Judo type throws back then and they went by the wayside because most people did not like getting thrown. The reality is that most people are not fighters. Most people do not like being hit in the face, kicked in the legs, slammed on the ground, or being choked out. If you run a school, you need students. It’s just a fact. Most people are not going to pay to get beat up or injured. And, if their children get hurt... well that won’t happen twice. We also had a boxing/ kickboxing club in college back in the 90s. People would come a few months, get a tee shirt, and eventually left to seek out a less physically demanding and less painful hobby. BJJ is already changing. It basically has to for it to be and remain so popular. Like many other martial arts, it will be a victim of its own success.
Boxers and kickboxers absolutely have belts. Champion Title belts.
@@takingbacktoxic7898 and the colored belts used to mean champion title belts that practioners need to earn them by actually fighting. now in some places they are given away like graduate certificate.
what we need is an universal standardized system of belts.
It's interesting how the martial arts culture is so different, in different parts of the western world. Sure, the entire world is to be expected, but there's still huge differences just within the west.
The concept of "mall dojos" doesn't exist at all in Denmark, for instance. The vast amount of dojos are not for-profit (newer ones more likely than old ones), and usually only hold classes a few times a week. Few places are big enough for daily classes, and it just tends to be separated into kids and adults.
Shotokan Karate was, and by and large still is, the big thing here. Less so these days, but I think it's still the most practiced. Most likely Judo, TKD, or JJJ would be next on the list. BJJ (increasingly popular) and MMA are fairly far down the list, and boxing gyms are very difficult to find at all.
This means you generally have waaaayyyy less access to different martial arts, and a ton will straight up not be available at all. On the flipside, you generally don't have to be concerned that someone set something up just to cash in on it, and places tend to be very clear in what they teach.
Woaaah, that’s very interesting!! I need to go check out some Denmark Karate then!
Interesting, the US is much more capitalist than Denmark so I would guess that plays a role. For better or worse, we'll sell anything and everything for a profit in the US.
@Amusis I don't know man. The martial arts organization I train kickboxing with here in Denmark shares common facilities like toilets etc. with a sports karate dojo.
We quite often see their younger students running to the bathrooms with bloody noses, while we rarely have any incidents of that type in any of our classes. xD
Denmark is the west
Really good talk and topic!
If someone takes your bishop in a BJJ match, then it’s no longer BJJ 😉
Sure sure haha
I understand what you are talking about. I trained in Kajukenbo at Ft. Bragg in the 80s. My instructor's focus was not on kata or competition, but on toughening us up and giving us practical CQC.
skills. A few years ago I went to a local Tang Soo Do school because that was all that was available in my area. I saw a great emphasis on forms, one step sparring and no contact play-fighting. There was even a box in the dojang full of kobudo weapons, so apparently they offer training in 18th century Okinawan weaponry. Not that I'm knocking that, I had done some training in that in my younger days.
When I asked the instructor about full contact sparring, he looked at me as if I were crazy. " Oh no, we don't do that. Someone might get hurt. But we do offer adult self-defense classes." I didn't go back.
I like the chess analogy for one reason: everyone has a different level of experience which can garnish success and victory.
it could be the same to compare it to checkers or connect 4.
Haha as a very vague statement, sure
Sensei Seth I suck at chess to be fair lol. I'm arguably a keyboard chess player....just realized there is chess like that lol
I like to say I'm playing checkers while my instructor Chewy is playing 3D chess!
Don Spolski exactly! there are levels of understanding to all sports. Kasparov would destroy me in chess and checkers like I could most likely dismantle Kasparov in bjj and kickboxing.
BTW Chewy from the YT channel? he's amazing, I like his content quite a bit 😊🤙👍
Yeah that Chewy! I had to name drop a little so I feel special ;) lol
Lots of good points. Great episode.
Thanks a ton Zack!!
i wasn't expecting this team up!
THE PLOT THICKENS
This is such an important conversation to have within martial arts.
Saying your a black belt in jujitsu is like saying your a golden gloves champ. Even someone who knows very little about combat sports knows not to mess with you.
Yup
When someone randomly tells me or my friends that he/she is a black belt in bjj, I ask them to roll with me, but they never have time for it or their back hurts, or their ass is unshaved or whatever. I just find it stupid when people say something like that just to look cool. But if they did roll with me, I wouldn't hurt them at all, just would have a great time and test their cardio a bit
well, it is easy to say if the belt is designed for that. obviously its "the most legit black belt" if it takes over a decade of devotion to achieve. Its like a university claiming its the best because their bachelors are as qualified as other universities doctorates, but fail to mention their bachelor degree is literally a full bachelor+doctorate curriculum.
Blackbelt in judo is just "not a begginner". Us westerners are so caught up in the color of our belt...
@@vittocrazi They say a similar thing in BJJ; Black Belt is the beginning of the real game, which I agree with.
@@hoodoooperator.5197 yes. but the bar is just absurdly high. and the belt system is so atomized that you cant really know what is going on in some cases. and not to mention some people getting demoted when switching academy.
Its different
Edit: and there are different rank world champions, wich hints big discrepancies in skill with people nearly peaking before the black belt
I have a black belt in Cow Leather Do, it has held up my pants for over 30 years without fail. Was easy to obtain but not cheap and far more meaningful than any BJJ belt.
This comment needs more likes
@@tipoftheiceberg7034 I agree
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Not at my gym, my Kru fought in Thailand for 15 years and that dude don’t water down shit.
Seeing Icy Mike's baby just climbing the chairs, falling, and jumping around was the real treat of this clip.
It would be cool to have an independent certification system/agency that worked across all legitimately effective martial arts. You could have like a one to five rating system that references the various aspects that contribute to the overall excellence of the school and speaks to whether it's more recreational or combat ready within each particular martial art system.
this too would eventually need to be reformed and replaced over time but, it could be an interesting thing to start for the sake of consumers knowing what they're signing up for.
I forgot whats its called i think its savbor, but the way they essentially check everything is something the call the circle. Everyone has a duty to participate, ready or not, against people at your level. Its basically a mandatory 80 plus percent Pressure sparring. Is that smart? If they do it every so often. Do all gyms that exist, and there are only abhandful, truly w body this? Ko idea. But the concept is proper. If you dont fight you cannot possibly be ready or effective.
They do stick fighting as well and bruises are gusrantees. But us slavs have a different mentality.
I had to move to Japan to get the real karate experience. I know exactly what your talking about and it hurts. I'm really worried about muay thai now.
Hopefully we’ve eeen it happen. I think Karate got away with it because of lack of internet
@@SenseiSeth Seeing a 70 year old Okinawan man knocking out a grown American man with his forearms puts things in perspective.Everything is up close and functional. Not jump tag like in America.Now giving Daido Juku Kudo a shot now.
@Amusis
True,
At my local gym, there are trainers that hold "Muay Thai / Kickboxing" classes.
It's full of old ladies who don't even know how to throw a roundhouse. The trainers don't even bother to correct their form.
yep i totally agree with this conversation. i've seen so many people who do not deserve their grade or rank just by the fact that they've not put the hard work in to deserve it.
6:15 - I love the cameo appearance happening in the background.
The little girl is the highlight of your show.
For sure 😂
It’s happening right now in so cal, we don’t have soccer moms anymore it’s Bjj moms now. I think all kids from elementary to high school should be trained in Bjj buuuut it’s getting to be like watered down TKD, Karate and Judo.
Oh noooo, big bummers. That’s gentrification for ya
It's happening here in Cleveland OH too. My two little cousins where given blackbelts for the age of 10 years old
Great channel with interesting conversations. I've just subscribed, Seth.
PS Before I got my black belt in Judo (20 years ago) I had to compete all the time against tough competition. It was unlike the Shotokan Karate next door where you did your katas and fought without full contact. So I guess, a Judo black belt is one of the toughest to achieve.
depends on the shotokan dojo, been to several and that goes from full to non contact....but you are right, in general it's 'semi' I guess
about 7 minutes in, when the daughter is just tumbling over stuff in the background like an episode of rugrats is pretty adorable
BJJ is legit, but there's another issue with it. Even if it's not softened for "casual" practitioners, many places will teach it in a hyper competition orientated way. Like mofos won't be able to perform the most basic takedowns and will just pull gard out of their ass, just so they can enter a posituon of comfort. And while the guard is an equal position in grappling, it most definitely is not when strikes are involved, so imo, it should be avoided in general, except as a last resort type of thing.
Oh I’m not arguing if BJJ is legit, it’s incredibly legit!!
@@SenseiSeth I know, I was moreso just putting it out of the way.
Reason being my instructor was originally a judoka for 17 years and the dude taught us everything, so we were much more well rounded. So when I see people flopping on their ass during a tournament, I just shake my head. Like honestly, if you move ANY martial art too far away from an actual combat situation what's the point of doing it. To be fair, I have the same issue with judo leg grabs, point karate styles, them bigass boxing gloves, etc. That's a "nerf" of the art form for the sake of the sport, which I don't appreciate.
Defense from the back is what you do AFTER you are put in a bad spot. It shouldn't be allowed as a primary strategy or "rule hack."
Anyone who isnt a white belt who just pulls guard in a lazy manner should be grabbed, pulled to the feet and thrown to the mat. If they continue to insist on doing it, you can actually throw them twice in a row with two different throws. (Throw, immediately pulled them up (even to the knees is enough for like tai otoshi, or osoto gari), and thrown again with a different throw.
Why do Greco Roman wrestlers train to get to their feet instead of just continuing to wrestle? Answer that and everything else becomes pretty obvious. But why is it scored the way it is? That requires more of a history lesson.
You know there’s a 15 year old watching like “what does he mean by they waxed on and waxed off.” 🤦🏽♂️🤣
Im that kid.... what dat mean
@@viego29 “I’m that kid” 🤣😂 Go watch the 1st Karate Kid movie and you’ll see. Plus it’s a classic AND it’ll help you understand “Cobra Kai.” 🤷🏽
oh please, every 15-year-old whacks off...
Great conversation fellas
Thanks Steven 🙏
8:44 "Places teaching Hop-ki-do"... and a handy demonstration of Hop-ki-do hops through the left of the screen.... :D
I do agree with if you want t make it your job you have to make in "nice" for everyone
I saw it firsthand for Taekwondo. After my Sabumnim retired I would've had to travel over an hour in any direction to get similar training. All of the other schools were pretty much about tournaments. Very sad. I remember someone saying I was BS for saying that I learned sweeps during my TKD training because there are no sweeps in TKD.
Very similar, sorry to hear it broski! We’ll bring it back
@@SenseiSeth we are fortunate to have experienced good teachings and training. So many are duped and left with a false sense of confidence. What these McDojos do to their students can and will get them hurt
Mikey B truth
AS a 62 year old Bjj Black belt with Karate BB, Combat Jujitsu,Boxing and wrestling background. I learned to fight shooting hoops in the parks of NYC! I've run my own school 27 years and have taught many styles including Krav Maga. No Black belts for kids the BJJ way I agree with. Keep spreading knowledge so others can succeed in this business that we Love.
That’s awesome to hear!! Hope your school keeps killing it 🙏👍
Im a karate black belt at the ymca, hardest 3 weeks of my life
The point about Krav is very true. I've lately de-emphasized belts in my own program and increased the time -- and effort -- required to obtain the next level. Too many "krav" gyms hand out belts every 3-6 months; even for higher levels.
I’ve done the same!
The thing that I hate (as a Krav instructor and student) is how different the Krav curriculums have become. An ex-MMA guy opens a Krav gym - here comes pages and pages of BJJ. Cop opens a Krav gym - hope you like going to the range. From what Krav used to be (and still is in Israel), it's just exploded with all these other things that it was never meant to be.
@@bluedogguy yeah I think there's a healthy mix of adapting to new techniques that work well but without throwing out all that is good about Krav. I think it is good for Krav to have a healthy amount of grappling/wrestling/clinching but it shouldn't necessarily turn into just an mma class either.
The child at 6:12 caught me so off guard I had to rewind for a double take. 😂
This was awesome
Thanks a ton Kevin!
That's a good point about selling. I had a mentor and coach in wrestling for a bunch of years who was a grizzled old man whose eyes bulged out of his head, his tongue was forever sticking out the side of his mouth, and he walked with a cane he made out of a tree limb (he was not an anime character, but damn close). That dude worked with wrestlers for decades and it really meant something if he took the time to headbutt you in the face or punch you in the stomach for 10 minutes at a time. He taught me so many things and he was such a phenomenal resource for good, pure, aggressive wrestling. That dude was also a traveling salesman, sold insurance, and sold wrestling gear wherever he went to be able to eat. Joe Melchiore was like that too. He'd teach a clinic out of a peach and apple orchard warehouse and then tend bar. I don't know if he stopped either after becoming a coach at Drexel though.
What I saw of Judo in Korea is that you go from white belt to black, or white to brown to black. The black means your serious career as a judoka begins.
So basically finish what you started or not.
One 4 all and all 4 one...Lol
Y’all should totally do a podcast! 🥋❤️
I’d be down! But we don’t really live near eachother so it may be a bit
6:20 When the background character is doing more interesting things than the main cast.
In regards to the stamina discussion earlier in this video, I quickly learned how important cardio and stamina was when I sparred with a buddy of mine who I taught to fight and used to spar with all the time. He had never had even a snow balls chance on hell of beating me in physical combat, regardless of the rules of lack there of.
Well, the last time I had sparred with him I was 27 and ran 30 miles a week (a light workout I thought. But a 1 hour run 5 days a week fit well into my busy schedule).
Then I run into him when I’m 32. I ran zero miles a week. My only form of cardio was walking to work and back home, and the walking I did at work. But I could jog more than 400m ( quarter mile roughly) without being out of breath.
We sparred for old times sake, and I still had better strategy and even my rusty techniques were a bit more polished than his and all that. But it became quickly apparent that if my life was in danger in an actual fight with him my only options would be to end this quick or lose.
As a Shotokan Karate Brownbelt and very close to becoming a black belt (once Corona is over 😂), I fullheartedly agree. I have started BJJ recently and I would compare their purple belts to Karate black belts in general.
Interesting!! Thanks for the input 🙏
I think fighting is similar to chess in that the tactics are similar. In both chess and fighting, in order to be truly great you have to look moves ahead and anticipate your opponent’s decisions/reactions.
sure but in fighting its much more about subconscious reaction and you don't get to take turns!
Sensei Seth yes and no. I’d say in every fight there is a sort of “action economy” if you will. Every time you do something, you give your opponent the opportunity to do something back. In this manner you do to some extent “take turns” although you don’t actually wait for each other. I suppose if you wanted to stretch the metaphor it’d be like a chess game where if you don’t make your move fast enough your opponent can just skip your turn and move again.
If you love the art you practice everything else does not matter. I ve studied Shotokan since 1995--still train today but left the art due to life/military service, however, I am back at it since October 2020 along with Isshin Ryu and some good ol heavy bag training. I must agree, earning rank in BJJ or GJJ for sure takes a lot longer than the Karate styles. I will say this however, true Karate and not Mcdojos, rank is earned through dedication and consistency not contracts in my humble opinion. Side note: I earned a yellow belt in Judo, and for sure I cried when I earned it!!!!!!
Lol. The little chitlin in the background makes me laugh. My 2 year old does the same whacky stuff
It's not the belt nor the "art" or discipline but the skills and mental strength of the practicioner that matters.
Also the instructors
@@SenseiSeth Of course also the instructors. That's right. But I am afraid that even a very good instructor can't make everybody a superskilled fighter.
I’m a Taekwondo black belt, and I agree with the statement at 3:40. I’d compare a BJJ black belt to a 4th degree TKD black belt, in terms of knowledge and time required to achieve those ranks.
I’d even go a little further from what I’ve seen when I joined a school, but it’s totally dependent on the school
Awesome little piece. I love hearing guys I respect speak of things I am thinking. All arts as they become , not money grabs but commercial. Where getting the memberships start to become more important than the art they are teaching. And this becomes a fine balancing act. I like my karate, and respect my sensei when he says what I've done has earned me a black belt, but I am not the baddest man in the neighbor hood. My Judo brown belt has it's competition but I was never very good , but we've talked of that in the past. The softening of the edges as you say is what does come to all arts as the need for them changes. As we look to the arts for our mental health and stress reduction and our fitness goals so to do the training regiments we look for. When the commercial needs starts to become more important we tend to ignore what the arts origin needs. Look even at how we struggle to find or claim to have the best answer to what is the bunki for our katas now. Like you say how long before BJJ and other arts fallow suit. But at least in the softened form our arts my take we can take the time to remind our students that seeds are still there that if we had to we can summon the baddest man on the block.
I’ve heard great things about Judo, once the time comes around I want to work with somebody on it!
@@SenseiSeth it will help blend the the transition from standing to ground, , Though traditional Ju jistu makes a more complete transition
sparky elven hopefully so! We definitely all could use some wrestling
@@SenseiSeth When I started judo it was because I was poor on the ground , My thought was in order to stay off the ground I should understand how you end up there. I think it has helped. In my quest for a more competent understanding of self defence I'm researching the best ways to get back to a standing position with out getting clocked in the process.
I noticed that Seth, you're wearing the hyabusa super hero wraps. I got a pair of these and the material seemed pretty slick, and the wraps seemed overly narrow. Do you find they're easy to wrap up with and wash up okay? I washed my pair and they started shedding threads on the first wash (in a delicates bag). I'm interested what you think of the super hero wraps, which seem to be made of entirely synthetics versus their regular wraps?
In not sure what they’re made of tbh! I haven’t had any problems washing or wearing them!!
I think most places today just do their own MMA. I trained in "Krav Maga" but more than half of it was basic MMA stuff. Taking roundhouse from mt, sidekicks from karate and some basic bjj stuff (kimura, guillotine...).
Sure sure!
Softened bjj=IBJJF.
I can say, as someone who lives in a country filled to the brim with Mc drive dojo's and old dudes with black belts who are stuck in the 80's with not alot of bjj guys, that it is very sad to see bjj fall to the wayside for profits. Wish you guys the best of luck and health.
You too Magnus!
Cracking vid! here's a q for you - if someone comes to a class, say they are there for a few months but they are better at (let's say sparring and technique of strikes) than other students at a given belt, should they be awarded that belt?
Nope, belts are usually about learning and showing comprehension of the curriculum. Not base skill level. It’s awesome that they’re skilled though
@@SenseiSeth cool, that's a nice take on it
3.28 you basically described capoeira, load of people who wanted something cosmopolitan but hate fighting, I literally heard a guy once say he'd hate if his kicks were effective
I remember being at the gym pretty much on the level with purple belts but couldn't advance because It was based on hours trained. I honestly wasn't upset but the belts are definitely losing their connection to skill level.
I think that's just one of the guarantees they used to ensure there is a certain degree of proficiency. While you may advance faster, theres a much better chance you understand the techniques if you've put in the hours. Its one of the things that keeps the validity in the belt system.
But I dont know much of anything friend, just a thought
You gotta find a different school then bro. My coach gives out belts when he thinks you've got suitable cardio, suitable technique and suitable GRIT. We roll hard and we roll regularly, promotions come very, very slowly, but when they do, you know the person deserves it. Even getting a fucking stripe is a big deal where I come from.
Anyone else notice that often times Mma = bjj and kickboxing a little hit of wrestling
Karate = all the "kid" friendly ones like karate, taekwondo, and the lesser known ones
To be fair, if you’re really teaching BJJ in an mma context along with kickboxing and wrestling, I think you’re fine calling yourself an MMA gym.
Now I want the Seth and mike podcast
Both hard2hurt and sensei Seth are awesome l