What’s WRONG with Karate? | Fight Talk Ep 3 (Hard2Hurt / Icy Mike)
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 16 ноя 2019
- I love a good debate and standing up for Karate that’s done RIGHT! What do you think?
Go give Mike a follow! He’s awesome and knows his stuff
ruclips.net/channel/UCNKt...
Hard2Hurt Link ^^
Merch Link
linktr.ee/senseisethmerch
Go follow my Insta for videos of cool kicks and me getting beat up by kids:
sensei_seth?utm...
SenseiSeth.com
If you want to support me, go through my amazon affiliate link to help me get a kickback for whatever it is you oddballs like to buy on amazon... toeless socks, idk..
amzn.to/2Pg2Npw
^^^^^
Click here to support! (You don’t have to buy that item, anything afterwards will help me out. Appreciate you!!)
Songs..
Intro music: “Homer” by Cxdy
/ acrprodu. .
Outro Music
“Pillow Talk” X I X X
Music Provided by RUclipsrs Music
• Video 
Спорт
The problem is not Karate, but how it's transmitted
Notso Sensitive fair!
Very true. For thirty years I practiced Okinawan Goju-Ryu. Goju Ryu is for short range contact. Kicks are generally no higher than the enemy’s knee joint. Furthermore, the hand strikes are to set up joint locks, throws and takedowns. This type of training takes years to become functionally competent. However, for a year or so I have been training in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, and I must say the basic Gracie Combatives curriculum is awesomely FUNCTIONAL (check out a Gracie Certified Center near you & Gracie University.com) However, but I will forever be a karate nerd 🤓
My point is simply this..... as with anything, form must lead to functionality.
For an example of good and functional Goju Ryu, look up Taira Masaji.
Yea what you said makes a lot of sense bud!
@@gojuboxer4224 Masaji Taira sensei is just genius. I just started teaching Masaji Taira´s method of training at a Gracie Jiu Jitsu center in Spain, one of the BJJ girls started attending the class and she seems to like it! It is very practical, and as you say the training methodology and transmission is key. This lady used to do karate for many years. A friend of hers and one of his seniors in karate asked her about our classes and when she told him we havent done any kata or started learning kata yet, ( only 2 weeks) he was going all about how bad my instruction was, but she was happy. When she told me this I told her: We have been doing kata all the time...just you didnt know...you are applying it in sparring and in learning the basic moves and the application. That is the kata, then I will teach you the solo practice of it and you will get a more solid understanding. Also it depends of the student, some students have a job that requires them to be efficient in shorter period of time, then you have to teach individually, not everyone is the same, has the same needs or intentions. Here is our website, if you need to find a Masaji Taira sensei´s dojo near you: www.gojuryukenkyukai.com/p/dojo-directory.html
"Karate... that's funny." - Jake Ellenberger
Stephen Thompson: 🥋👣💥
The Isaiahnator one of my favorite clips ever 😂
Let’s be honest, “enthusiasts” usually ruin whatever they support, because they usually never practice the thing they support. All the karate nerds I knew growing up were people who didn’t practice it, but saw it in movies or games. Fanboys who practice the style are usually a lot more conservative about smack talking about it.
That’s a really interesting perspective actually. Great point. Most people who are deeply involved in it want to see it grow, not stay the same for nostalgia sake!
Same with kung fu. I’ve been doing KF my whole life (since ‘84) and I’ve probably only met 20 guys who really put in the practice it takes to make it effective
Skunky Munky it’s all about putting it into pressure testing 👍
Bro i feel you. Im a third degree black belt and certified tournament judge. Been doing karate for 33 years. Do you know how many ppl try to tell me i dont know tournament rules cuz of a scene in the cobra kai show about the crane kick. Lol these are ppl that have never taken a karate lesson in their life but seem to know everthing about karate from a youtube series
Slider X I’d like to find a serious karate school near me. My old Sifu runs the only local school that isn’t a McDojo and hes 80+, going insane, and still thinks hes a kung fu villan
Hey guys. I agreed with everything said by both of you in the video.
I have studied a true traditional Okinawan karate for 30 years. In an environment that pressure tests, spars, continues to the ground if necessary and continues to a valid end point. We also do kata and know multiple applications for every movement in the katas. We do group Bumki or kata application. We do pre arranged kumite drills. We use kata, Bumki and Kumite to hone the muscle memory. Then we use progressive sparring and pressure to free the student to random fluidity. Over the years I have had two broken bones, multiple bone bruises, weekly bruises and numerous cuts from training.
I tell people I do traditional karate and they right me off. We spar and they ask me why I lied about my training and didn’t tell them about my MMA training.
Like you said. There are very very few true karate dojos left in the world. Even in Okinawa, and I have studied there as well. But, there are a few that produce very very skilled fighters. It is a longer path but the end result when it comes together is stunning (usually takes 6 years of hard training). After 10 years it is scary.
But come on, its traditional Okinawan Karate. I have to be bullshitting. Everybody knows traditional karate sucks. Thats the problem with labels. Given time the popularity of MMA will generate McMMA gyms. People will then try to label the real MMA gyms to separate them from McMMA gyms. And we’ll get lost in labels.
That would never happen to MMA. Really, it happened to traditional Karate and now the true karate has been almost lost from the world. Its happening to JKD right now. Lots of debates about real and fake JKD.
It happens. People want prestige, people want it quick, people want it easy. And there is money to be made from cutting corners. Sad but true.
Labels are useless. Create one and the fakes will use it to hide behind. Words are for crap. Truth is, your shit is effective or it isn’t
Debating.... screw it I’ll post this.
Effective or it isn’t, very true. Training most styles for a prolonged period of time (with pressure testing) makes most people scary
Robin Stiff I study Shidokan Shorin-ryu. Rather than looking for a specific style I always recommend you look for the practices I mentioned in my first post. I have met many Uechi Ryu practitioners I respect and some I don’t. Look for something practical and effective. Look for Sensei that are knowledgable and can demonstrate why it works. Hope that helps.
I feel you!! Well said.
well said OSS
@@SenseiSeth bingo. The only thing any of us training traditional arts have to be concerned with, is holding ourselves accountable and actually pressure testing what we do. When you don't, you get way too much fluff and "subtle" , "powerful" techniques on non resisting opponents.
Poor mike. Sounds like his mcdojo experience ruined his outlook on karate. Dont let a bad apple ruin the bunch
Well there’s a lot of people who aren’t teaching the best stuff. Gotta keep an eye out for em
@@SenseiSeth oh im totally aware. Thats the problem with the misperception of karate.
I had a buddy when we were kids who took what he said was called Kakajido. I was just a brawler, boxer style and I ran circles around him; I never saw his "training" amount to anything. Now, as an adult I looked up Kakajido and can't even find info on it; must have been a McDojo lol
@@SenseiSeth I learned most of my moves from watching others and sparring against black belts and basically just relied on a natural ability for analysis.
I trained in tkd as a kid. Our achool did a lot of sparing but with point style or "american" kick bixing rules (like Super Foot Bill Wallace). Thus actually gave me a good base for stand up. Niw i am in a gym that does more mma style stand up with good bjj. I found (as you and Mike mentioned) that as soon as i learned some muay thai and boxing my tkd skills really started to shine. Most people don't expect side kicks or spinning back kicks :)
Love the video and the collaboration with Icy Mike.
Yea! It’s awesome to hear of schools that are applying their training. Guys like you are hard to handle once you get the timing and distancing of kickboxing down!
#sidekicksdontwork
I'm in my thirties and I just started Taekwondo, and I don't for the life of me understand why there's such a negative mythos about it; some of the first lessons I was taught were how to kick hard, how to strike, how to block, how to move offline, and a bit of grappling. I think people get the idea that tournament rules are all the art consists of, but even then have they seen a match? People get knocked out cold pretty often.
@@hanburgundy4317 There are a lot of Tae Kwon Do schools that don't teach half of that stuff. That's why we rip on it. Your school sounds like a good one. Good luck my friend, train hard and be well!
I like the camera work...it was like I was actually standing there.
Thanks Jim!
Preface: 3rd degree tkd blk belt and a BJJ brown belt with an additional 4 years of Muay Thai.
All we need to do is add 2 boxing classes a week to tkd/karate and 1 full kickboxing + sparring class a week to put it together. We just need solid hands and realistic combos
We had decent hands but not enough clinch work, or Takedown defense. We ran plenty of takedown offense but very little defnse
@@SenseiSeth One of the takedown defenses is right from our Kata (Jion, Heian) in which we secure a underhook for example and push the head down with the other ... just saying proper understanding and application of Kata with 2 man drill and realistic drilling is one way to better use the Karate one trains
@@SenseiSeth stuff you probably already know but just adding my 2 cents
Nicholas NJ there’s tons of stuff that looks just like Kata! Mike and I had one of those moments at his seminar!
In my mind I think that the traditional martial arts will perform way better if they incorporate western boxing.
I did shotokan karate consistently for 4 years of my life. I thought I was a bad ass, the problem was always the point style sparring it subconsciously creates the illusion that you’re some sort of 1 punch man that could’ve killed someone if you went full swing. ALSO another flaw in my game was the 2 Dimensional bounce between stances and movement, my range of motion was never enough to Cut angles and leverage space EFFECTIVELY like a boxer could circle his opponents rather than bounce back and forth infront of them. This all became very apparent to me after my first attempt sparring a friend who trained 1 year of boxing and 1 year of kickboxing. He was so much more experienced in sparring and realistic fighting generally. Oh he also knew what it felt like to be punched in the face I didn’t get touched much in karate cause I was pretty decent at point sparring
It's funny that Icy Mike mentions Kuk Sool Won because that was basically my journey. Got my black belt, did BJJ and boxing and KSW came back. MMA guys asking me how to do joint locks and spinning kicks lol!
Haha spinning kicks are dope! 😂👍
my sensei said he broke someones ribs with a sidekick. He was sparring with someone who he had no idea had been insulted(gave the man's wife a hard time on her black belt exam). Man came at him with a level of intensity that was beyond sparring and instinctively shot out a side kick to create distance. Had unknowingly broke some of the man's ribs.
Side kicks work!
I have broken ribs with a side kick, off the back foot they are useless. Off the front foot done right, they are devastating
@Aumima Mimadino it was a sparring match. He had to hit the other man back to protect himself.
I don't get why side kicks "don't work" when you're still putting a ton of force behind them, though definitely less than like a back kick or a roundhouse just because of how more "awkward" a sidekick is
Side kicks are pretty easy to sneak into a body shot if you know what your doing
G'day Seth! So I've been studying Kyokushin Karate for the past 13 years ever since i was 8 and I have just started training at my local MMA gym, so far I've found that my experience with my karate has given me a slight edge when it comes to our stand up fighting as Kyokushin has always been pretty combat focused.
That's not to say I'm not getting my ass handed to me whenever the guys who have been doing wrestling and BJJ of course haha.
Though my karate has been great for my stand up i definitely agree that its almost a must to branch out a bit and learn from wrestling and BJJ to ADD to my karate.
Exactly! Never hurts to gain more experience 👍👍
to be fair though, Kyokoshin and its substyles influenced by Sensei Osama are almost closer to to Muay Thai than they are to most other Karate styles, simmilar to how there are Kung Fu styles simmilar to western combat sports, and on the other hand, kung fu systems that are movie nonsense.
Kyokoshinkai certainly has little to do with Seth's Kenpo. Mas was a legend and ahead of his time. He realised what is reaching public opinion today through youtube and such, regarding practicability. Takes a lot of confidence to bring your favourite students to Thailand and challenge top Thai fighter of their time on their homeground and it is even more impressive, that they mostly wrecked them.
No disrespect intended, it is ok to train martial arts that are seen as 'less effective' if you love the beauty of it. It is not like many of us plan to turn pro or go to war and if you really are afraid that you can't defend yourself because you have MMA trained thugs around your hood, come on, get urself a pepper spray or a gun or move away. People nowadays think that they need to be a high level wrestler, BJJ black belt, have Freddy Roach Boxing training and need to be a Lumpinee champ all at once just to have decent self defense skills. I am a firm believer of 'gym saturation' (I just invented that word), meaning that most people who practice fighting regularly will be less likely looking for trouble on the street, leaving self defense situations mostly to deflecting drunk fools. And most of us will be able to handle those with any decent system anyway.
People should realx more and concentrate on what they enjoy rather than only picking the most effective styles. Nowadays it seems like a religion to bash traditional arts and brag about one's own elite combat sport.
Respect for starting KK at such an early age, I am almost jealous. Many greats started like this: GSP, Bas Rutten, Rico Verhoeven, Andy Hug and many more. That alone tells you, that Kyokoshin is legit af.
I did some nonsense traditional Karate that was less effective than Aikido from age 8-10. Took me 10 years to get into martial arts again.
Oz brother
@@abmo32 A thousand likes!!
I reckon the biggest problem with Karate is it's been systemized because it's packaged as a completed product unlike most MMA gyms which are continually developing their techniques and methods based on where the sport is at. Also a lot of Karate gyms really only train with other Karate practitioners so there is very little cross over training with wrestlers, boxers, Muay Thai guys etc. Karate kata contains some decent ideas for the street but its trained in such a stiff and formal way that it wont have much chance of success in a street confrontation in my opinion.
Awesome conversation. I was all prepared with my usual comments about Karate, then Mike and Seth said it all right away.
At one local kids karate program when they get their jr. black belt they are then eligible to test for an adult green belt when they turn 12 .
The key to applying Karate and most other TMA to fighting is to supplement it with established fighting principles and techniques (like the boxing, wrestling etc. mentioned) in more realistic drilling and sparring. This is usually called "pressure testing".
Exactly, I made the pressure testing comment many times replying to people on here. Many different ways to skin a cat
The world needs a worldwide combat Karate movement. Head punches and takedowns, two 5 minutes rounds.
Haha there’s literally a sport called “karate combat”
I think the main issue is the most obvious one: the intense oversaturation of McDojos. It's the same with kung-fu and aikido. There are some great systems out there, but there are so many that are ineffective for combat and the students at many of these dojos have such a limited perspective that they don't realize this.
True true
Spar with a kyokushin dude and come back with the results.
I’ve sparred with really talented kyokushin guys before!
@S F the only improvisation that is needed in karate is to take punches on face. By just adding this thing the karateka becomes complete. Ready to compete with any MMA fighter anywhere.👍👍 Osu!👊🙏
@S F shut the fuck up asshole.. and get fucking lost .. 🤣 stop shredding lectures where no one is interested in listening you.. get lost asshole..
Kyukoshin guys don’t punch in the face. That’s it’s 1 demerit. Else the only karate that is worth studying in today’s time is kyukoshin.
Rest all karate styles are a waste of time and money. I wasted few years in earning a black belt too, which is totally if no use. Only things I found useful was boxing, a bit of judo and trying to realistically train for multiple opponents and weapons
In the west people are blinded by mma. In places like London or any other 3rd world countries, you will always be attacked by multiple opponents usually with knifes or machetes
Mma and TMA are good as long as you keep it inside the ring. Round kicks taught in mma or kyukoshin don’t stop an opponent with a machete charging at you
What people call as street fights are usually between moronic maniacs trying to satisfy their ego or mostly a road rage that has escalated. Real self defence is where you’d be jumped by multiple guys with weapons. Here you have no time to take your stance and do takedowns
Karate is a stance based fighting system. Boxing & similar arts are movement based fighting systems. Standing in 1 place and trying to fend off multiple attackers will get you killed in less than a minute. Think about it dude
@@Dac-911 first of all it's kyokushin.. not kyukoshin..
3:52 "defending takedowns" animation is hilarious :D
Great video
Rozennberg FRIDI 😂😂😂
My only martial arts context is Krav Maga but after finding Coach Brian at Peterson Grapplers, then binge watching your channel and from there, finding Mike, Jesse, Wonderboy, and Kevin I'm branching out! I'm about to start studying Karate as an adult! I'm super excited about it and I can't wait to soak up every morsel I can get! I'm pairing it with grappling training and hopefully I'll end up well-rounded, skilled, and disciplined. Thank you for the work you put into your channel and for the collaborations that opened the door to discovering so much great content 🎉
This is the most complete discussion about traditional martial arts and full contact fighting I've ever seen.
Thanks for that!!!
I once sparred with a boxer/brawler and he kept powering through my head kicks because I was pulling them. He started to get a bit cocky about it, but I had nothing to prove to him so I just held back. The instructor let him know what was up afterwards.
Same .... except I "missed" pulling a snap side kick. Knife edge foot 1, his kidney -100. Got the classic hey no kicking shit 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤦♂️🤦♂️
Side kicks don't work? Think we need to introduce him to our friend Cung Le lol.
How to build a Dojo haha it’s a running joke for sure!
I must have missed the memo 🤣 great chat and video though. Good work! Love the open conversation.
Haha all good! Thanks 🙏
He makes sad ignorant remarks in all his videos. Get use to it.
Its one of his channels memes
I did shotokan karate for about 10 years, my sensei used to be very sad with the state of karate nowadays.
When I got my brown belt, he got me and the two other new brown belts to fight him together and kicked the shit out of us to remember we were not hot shit.
Isn't shotokan a good stand up style that can hold its own
I watched a guy get absolutely embarrassed by an instructor for running his mouth like he was a total badass. The instructor hit him about 30 times and never got touched, and what made it so bad was he was just barely tapping him. It was obvious the student could have been beaten to death at the instructor's whim, and I really hope it taught him some humility. They weren't from our school, so I never saw them again 😂
Can't we all just get along and rag on Aikido and Tai Chi?
Preach lol
I don't think Aikido is bad. Its not a combat martial art but it at least gives you options that doesn't involve swelling your opponent's brain.
@@uhaaid3563 ruclips.net/video/pEZgJyTzqPg/видео.html
@muay thug I have a soft spot for the Ip Man movies and training it for a bit myself, so I'm not gonna rag on it. Will say, my Boxing and Muay Thai has helped me way more times than Wing Chun has.
@muay thug Dude, you gonna learn how to read? Read my comment SLOWLY and figure it out. You're made of spare parts, aren't ya bud? Do I really need to spell it out for you?
I feel like there’s so much to learn in traditional martial arts like karate on top of just fighting vs other modern striking arts like modern Muay Thai. Since modern Muay Thai for example only focuses on fighting itself, karate would be focusing on other things like forms etc and then some fighting. This is why someone that’s done 1 year of karate is no where near as effective as someone that’s done 1 year of Muay Thai. I’ve been raining full contact karate for 7 years and when I practice at Muay Thai gyms they have a hard time reading my kicks like the Brazilian kick or front leg roundhouse kicks that don’t require a switch stance before throwing the kick while still making power.
There’s definitely a lot more to take in!
I think the Karate Kid movie series touched on this quite a bit. When Daniel was learning from Mr. Miyagi those fancy moves (which later ended up helping in the tournament towards the end of the first film), he was very frustrated and didn't completely see the purpose of those moves. With that being said, I believe that there is a lot of value in Karate. However, with the way that it is taught in many schools, the instructors rarely ever show the purpose behind each of the moves. I believe that's why the general consensus on martial arts often that MMA is the way to go, especially for self-defense reasons. This isn't to say that Karate isn't effective for self-defense, but it is not taught with the same intensity that styles like Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, and Wrestling are taught. Just my thoughts.
I would agree. Intent of classes between boxing and karate is very different!!
I'm incredibly fortunate to have found a legit karate dojo with a great teacher in the same town I work in. Unfortunately, I was 29 years old and overweight when I found it, so it's been eye-opening to try learning to move the same way I used to back when I was a kid at a McDojo. In my limited experience, it's really hit or miss when it comes to martial arts schools in America, so I understand why karate has the reputation it does (even if I disagree with it).
Awesome conversation btw, love talking shit with other martial artists from different disciplines.
Yea that’s fair. Not all schools can be great unfortunatley
I loved to see this exchange of opinions between you and Mike.
So. I trained in karate for a tiny bit, like, it was a miniscule amount of time, but I really loved the formality about it, and the power behind the Katas. There's just something about that explosive punch they teach you....anyways. I mainly have a base in kickboxing per my dad's training. My dad was first trained in Karate from a sensei out of Seattle and learned kickboxing from the same one. He started teaching me after I got jumped by a group of bullies at age 6. He had just happened to be passing the schoolyard when it was happening and he saved my ass before it got too bad. I see a lot of people talking about street fighting on here and "what a real street fight" is. When you're a kid, the traditional forms and stuff work to an extent. The flashy stuff and all that, the stuff that makes you feel like a badass from a movie or something. But the older you get, the worse your fights become. My freshman and sophomore years I had two separate guys pull bladed weapons on me. This is where the number one rule in any street fight comes into play. Fuck him up before he can fuck you up. The first one got a 3-piece and a shit load of knees before being slammed into the wall. The second one attempted to reach into his pocket because he realized he couldn't fight me hand to hand and got his nose shattered. I'm not trying to toot my own horn, I'm just making a point. When people say "sports based combat doesn't work in the street" what they are talking about is that instinct to really fuck a dude off to the point where he's bleeding and mumbling. In sports, you're fighting to win a match, but in the street you're fighting to do as much damage as possible to keep the other guy from doing any to you. Now that goes without saying, try to avoid these confrontations as much as possible. I'm not trying to promote violence or anything like that, just simply stating my thoughts on the issue, and what I believe to be true.
"You caught it because I didn't *kill* *you* !" LMAO I'm dead
Feel the same way for the whole conversation. Just swap Karate for Ninjutsu. Dojo was my church for 8 years, learnt heaps about realistic fighting but also about life. Now I train bjj, mma and boxing to bring that to the foundation I've got. Thanks for this brother 🙏
First, great on you for doing this! Says a lot about you. I would say and I always say it is not the martial art, but the person's committment to training their art.
I started learn karate when i was 5 years old, my dad teaches me karate, practically i ate karate for breakfast when i was young, and until now i continue our karate legacy, karate lives in our family, i used it in some of my mma matches and it works, test it with blood and sweat. That’s why i love karate. I just use my jiu jitsu to prevent take downs and incase they take me down.
People always judge karate based around mma and it's effectiveness in mma,it's not what it's designed for.
Thanks, new sub here. I've been into M.A. for quite a long time. Took a little wing chung as a kid. Around my early twenties I started taking Karate. I was involved for a couple years. I was just getting to the first wave of growth, when you pass from casual student to devotee, right as I was coming close to get ready for my first blackbelt testing. But adulting, and my own outlook on things kind of clouded my focus. I gave it up for a while, but I never lost interest fully. But other commitments and situations kept me out of the Dojo for twenty years. So here I am in my early forties, and I've slowed down a lot and not taken the best care of myself. But I keep finding myself wanting to go back. The old Dojo is still there, and ive kept in touch with a couple people over the years. Mine was always the love of the philosophy, and the art itself. Though when I started to throw kicks higher than I thought my legs actually reached, it was a bit of an ego boost. I'm really trying to work out a way to get back into it. There are a few hurdles that I'm not sure of though. Between other time commitments, budgetary constraints, and overall health, including some painful issues with knee nad upper leg injuries, I'm trying to decide if it's really a good decision to try to jump back onto the gi and obi. Thanks again for the video.
I mean, if you have the means, I always recommend getting back into it. You’d be surprised how the hurdles subside when prioritize what you enjoy! Good luck on your journey!
Karate is my first art. I have a 3rd degree in Shotokan, I am 1st degree in Taekwondo, I have dabbled in quite a bit of other things in my 17 years of the military. Chinese kenpo, wing chun, kali, jkd, eskrima, savate, sambo, BJJ, ju-jitsu. I have enjoyed every it of training I have received. I will always love my karate @senseiseth
Interesting video mate, some good conversation. I did karate as a kid and I have some students who have also previously trained in it. There are plenty of good and bad techniques / examples I have been shown. From what you are saying I feel the same about aikido. It gets a bad rap, and people like to look at the negatives rather than looking at any positives and benefits it can bring.
Glad you are having these conversations and I'll check out the rest of your content!
Aikiflow I definitely don’t know much about Aikido but I always appreciate the conversation!! Thanks for the support!
@@SenseiSeth Any time! If I ever make it to the states it would be great to collab. Likewise, if you are ever in the UK, you are always welcome here if you are up for a bit of cross training!
Growing up I did a lot of Taekwondo (not this tapping lightly crap either) and Karate. Soon as I discovered Muay Thai, I integrated what I learned from TKD (back kicks, spinning heel kicks etc) into my fighting and that was helpful. Karate is fine, you need more though which is what's great at MMA in general.
this was a really awesome conversation about karate and martial arts. I've been studying Shorin-ryu for almost 2 years and I love it! I try to tell people it doesn't matter what you train but how you train, and whats gonna get you off the couch. it does suck that it takes so long to be really effective at karate but i also love that. then there is also the misconception that a black belt means you are a master at karate, no it means you can finally call yourself a student of karate. found this channel from hard2hurt and i subscribed keep up the good work.
It all depends on what you want to do with it and how patient you can be! Thanks for the support friend 🙏
Really appreciate the conversation and perspectives between you guys. I'm a 50+ year old, 3rd kyu wado student; been practicing for almost three years a couple of times a week, and I've questioned the effectiveness of the traditional approach sometimes. I have also added a little boxing in where the schedule permits. I also got to train with Icy Mike while on vacation so that read awesome. Thanks for the uploads and looking forward to the next ones.
That’s awesome to hear. Sounds like you’re enjoying it your training! I love to try and get work in different styles and implement it into my teaching. Thanks for watching 🙏
@@SenseiSeth I've got a pretty good set of instructors and fellow students, and pretty positive atmosphere in class. They're also not afraid of questions.
Yea that’s honestly some of the most important parts, having a good team and instructor to grow with!
Can you elaborate on the styles of karate that are "better" to learn? I practiced Goju Ryu for several years and really enjoyed it.
Great conversation, by the way.
Any style that you can pressure test what you’re learning through sparring is usually beneficial!!
It bothers me that this is even still a question. We’ve had multiple UFC champions with karate backgrounds. High level strikers in kickboxing. Any traditional style by itself will not work in all situations or in MMA. To many, karate is more than just a fighting style but an exercise to stay in shape, build confidence, relieve stress, etc. It is also a contact sport similar to fencing. We need to open new karate schools with an emphasis on just fighting if that’s what we want it to be.
Preach it brother lol
Karate is my first love too, i trained karate since i was 5, and still training until now, i am a purple belt in bjj and trained mma too and used my karate, but I always go back to my roots
My man Seth with the RUclips channel! Most certainly karate is all about how it’s trained and executed. I say karate is a great base in my opinion the techniques and philosophies about training are just different with its own strengths and weaknesses. Keep up the good work my guy.
Very true! Pots of awesome stuff you can get from Karate!
Could you make a video on stretches and things you did or do to get flexibility in the legs for high kicks and body kicks for a Muay Thai person pleasee
I actually have one out already!
ruclips.net/video/Kf6iBPRhUPo/видео.html
Amazing thank you
Gstar XzX sure thing!
finally with my 1st instructor (this was 1980's) we trained various gun and knife defense that look very much like Krav Maga video's I see today .... I once asked a Karate instructor why he didn't teach it and he replied that he didn't want to give Kids a sense of false security .... well then maybe they are not ready for a Black Belt (Shodan) until the age when they can really understand this along with things like attacking knees and small joint manipulation like breaking fingers OSS
Thanks Sensei Seth
Cole Saul-Milligan oh yea, absolutely!
A very very good debate... Good points good questions and good answers it's been awhile since I've heard something like this good job guys I'm learning from you, or at least trying to keep up hahaha
Thanks for listening my man 🙏
We need more bunkai! There's so much more to karate in the katas but I feel like much of this knowledge has been lost and continues to fade with each generation. When karate became more popular people wanted to see what how it could compete in tournaments. Tournaments are good for advertising karate but somewhere along the way training started to focus too much on the competition and how to win trophies instead of the roots from which karate grew.
In GOOD bunkai. The guys at Karate Culture do a good job with it
Karate is awesome provided you do real sparring after the first year or so (so you know the things you are being taught actually works) and punching to the head is trained to do and defend against.
Mike knows it's legit, he even says so here. All styles have pros and cons though, the tricks is knowing what you need to watch out for and how to capitalise on your strengths while in an encounter with someone. Good discussion (I like your explanation of junior blackbelts) and good outro too lol
Yea I agree!! It has to be done RIGHT!
@@SenseiSeth Exactly!
Sparring is great, but I also love the kata, bunkai and kumite.
I love you guys, you got some of the best ways of explaining things. I’m with sensei Seth, I love karate and had a great adult experience with it, I think it’s very complete but Mike makes great points, thanks for keeping everything so real, and having a good discussion!
Yea man!! Discussion is what brings us further!! Thanks!
Sensei Seth absolutely, discussion is the best way of learning. Keep doing what you do!!
Cmaxb9 thanks boss 🙏🙏
I love karate but at my school we do it all, full contact sparring, takedowns, brutal bunks applications, kata and competitions. Nice to hear from others too
You should watch karate's new full contact league, Karate Combat!!!
Karate!!!!!!
I watch it frequently!!
@@SenseiSeth Cool!!!
In this vid I see a lot of criticism for how sparring is taught too. You and Mike mentioned how normally there's no "grind" and it's mostly point based. That actually causes problems you've mentioned since there's not much to do "after" point. And what to do if "point" is actually inefficient. Another thing you've noted - hard kicks during sparring are not a thing because if you do them "light" the opponent may catch them and do action off of caught kick, but if you do them hard, then it's a knockout & concussion for opponent and that's not good for anybody :/ And sparring "hard" with bunch of protective gear is best way forward but still problematic since protective gear is constricting... So ultimatelly it's mostly about slow grind and getting good sparring partners.
JohnnyBit well it’s also about getting actual rounds in that moderately reflect life, rather than sport too!
It's great to hear intelligent conversation from two experts in their respective styles.
I'd agree with that. It's one thing when students learn forms and principles and another thing entirely learning how to apply all of it under pressure and do what you actually have to do in a fight which is to create opportunities and or seize openings in order to attack successfully. It's also hard when your martial art is very much focused on outright power or particularly harmful techniques because it's always in the students mind that they never really know until they actually really hurt someone which is not really what you want to be doing with your training partners or they just won't come back. So I'd agree that Karate certainly falls into these parameters and as such can be a real challenge to shift gears from theory to actual combat effectiveness. At least I get that from my little experience with it but also from what I've seen of higher level examples of it .
I respect karate. I’m a traditional martial artist. I was in to karate as a kid before I learned about kung fu. I grew up in the 80’s and the schools were way tougher then. We spent a lot of time practicing instead of playing games and we did tons and tons of sparring. I feel like all martial artists from my generation were really with “the get down” and anyone that pressure tests their art can be to. I always say you can take someone with natural fighting abilities that knows nothing and they will always beat someone with no fighting ability even if it’s a grandmaster. I think combat boils down to the person and not the art, it’s just a matter of dedicating yourself to the requirements your art specifies and not cutting corners and then saying it doesn’t work. If I had a solid karate school near me I’d love to do some legit karate but all the schools in my area that aren’t MMA are mcdojo’s now. The older guys had to close shop when they didn’t offer daycare and women’s self defense camps
All about pressure testing for sure 👍👍 it’s tough to keep the same as society changes what it wants for sure. But it’ll be worth it
Cobra Kai!!
Honestly with a different moral compass, I’d go to Cobra Kai 😂
Miyagi do!
@@kbanghart Combine the two styles and you have a more complete system. The offensive striking of Cobra Kai and the defensive kata of Miyagi do. I'm hoping in season 3, that's what we see happen.
@@ComicalHealing I never thought of either system being exclusively one method, to be honest.
Caranfin Naurlain thatd be fun to watch!
Exactly, bro. I'm a 3rd degree black belt in Isshinryu karate, but I've been training muay-thai, boxing, jiu-jitsu and wrestling for 10 years which really powered up my karate.
Yea you’ve got a LOT of different stuff to draw from!! Nice man
I once asked Sensei Bill Richardson (my 1st Karate Instructor 7th Dan/ 8th Dan) something about rank and he said you never stop learning .... He was very practical and everything always related back to real fighting , citing as an example if you were thrown in a Mexican prison and needed to defend yourself that when you'll know how good your Karate is ... Your rank and belt is about respect in the dojo, when you are in the Mexican Prison no one will care what belt or rank you are ... what is your knowledge , skills and spirit (your spirit and will are what will keep you alive not any belt) ... oss remembering Sensei Bill Richardson .... (Jutsu and Do the Fighting/Defending and Philosophy of Karate = Karate-Do / Jutsu).
For Icy Mike, Miyagi always say "Never bad student, only bad Teacher"
GoyoMontoya I think that’s what Mike is trying to help fix!
There are some bad dojos out there. So you can't entirely blame him for having doubts.
GoyoMontoya absolutely agree
It's common for some to make hasty generalizations based on observing a few bad examples. Let's say you meet to a guy who is terrible at math, then you draw the conclusion that math is worthless...well...we don't get rid of multiplication just because little Johnny failed to learn that 6 x 5 = 30. Often, one only sees a small amount of any one martial art or its practitioners--and sometimes the competitions associated with a particular martial art does not resemble how that martial art may be used in actual combat. For example, the Collier Method of Judo is a combat-style that focuses on the martial art of judo, rather than sport / Olympic-style judo, and it was primarily designed for bouncing and used by bouncers for more than a few years successfully--but when it is done in fight it does not look exactly like Olympic judo...lol...and it doesn't last but a few seconds. When people see our style of judo, they sometimes see impressive movements, but not decisive practical movements...sometimes what is perceived as flashy movements may work in specific situations, though they may not often arise, but they have another purpose altogether--to build athleticism, coordination, determination, agility, confidence, exhibit important principles, and so on. I have seen karate work in actual fights, so I think it would be a mistake to underestimate anyone trained in it. Maybe the guy that knows karate is not very well trained, but what if he is...what if he has experience using it for real...learning the hard way may not the best way in such a situation...lol...but some have to...lol.
Great video and discussion!
Things change a LOT when you put two very skilled people together! Then it turns into sport and looks impractical. That’s a great way to look at it.
@@SenseiSeth
Are you located in Myrtle Beach, too?
When I did it for a bit as a kid, after the teach explained the belt system now and how it was done in the old days, I tried to do it old school and never washed my white belt. never got to do it long since family situation.
it took me several years to get a grasp of karate (germany), and keep in mind, I barely scratched the surface of what is there to learn
There’s tons of info in Karate!!
Icy Mike needs to go to Okinawa.
"Train in ufc"
You’d be surprised haha
Da Rogs Yes, I got my black belt in UFC, very good style of fighting. UFC THE BEST!
😂😂
I like your reality, honest, sincere debate. I did Tae Keon Do for years, good ITF style not just fast tag nonsense and most all there were belt crazy which I thought was kind of sad. I think a long, slow Road is better then a 2 year black belt express, unless someone's a prodigy. I also sprinkled in some other arts to get an idea of what I might run into.. Good debate, you both had good points, thank you.
Totally agree with you guys. I am doing Ishinryu Karate for over 3 years now and I am a 40 year old. I did box in my youth though and this helps me tremendously when we do free sparring since my punches are already set up and I have been sparring a lot in boxing. I feel like Karate is awesome but it is absolutely can not be on its own. Add Muay Thai, Boxing, Jujitsu or Judo/Wrestling to become a better over all fighter.
I feel that traditional oriental martial arts have a backward method of teaching. They focus too much on clear form and aestetics from early on that for me never worked. I think these two things should be a product of internal understanding of your body that comes with practice and testing instead of being forced upon you with discipline.
Hmm, that’s a fair point of view! I could see how that’s a problem for people
@@SenseiSeth Thanks for the reply. Im practicing Judo and Aikido for a couple of years now, but having problem with Aikido because more experienced people forcing me to do something that I would never do in Judo randori. While I think Aikido has great potential it seems to be tied to some forms that are not even true to their medieval roots.
Danilo Recevic ive never messed with Aikido, I don’t know enough about it to debate it!
@@SenseiSeth I understand. Traditional martial arts have lot of pushback on youtube so I wanted to give my oppinion. Thanks again for replying.
Its not the art its who's using it
Very true
I got all the way to...
Yellow belt as a kid, then my instructor moved his dojo elsewhere.
Kinda wish I had more time in it, maybe I'll have a chance to pick it up again.
What little I learn did help me with schoolyard brawls at the very least.
I love sparring old black belts when in an mma environment. They really do use techniques with great distancing and timing. They are also also very aware of the dangers of getting hit so they'll sometimes take a risk to land a hit or recognize that they need to get out of the way.
Wise people!
I always thought karate had different fighting styles anyways? Not just your typical kicking. Not dissing on it by all means, just from what I have heard and seen.
Sure! It’s a valid question. There are definitely different styles of karate. The guys who usually transition to other styles come out fighting somewhat like I fight. An example of a style of karate that isn’t as sideways facing is kyokushin!
First
Thanks for the love bro!!
My TKD school as the same mentality as Seth. The instructor teaches multiple takedowns and multiple submissions for facing the untrained opponent and I think that's essential for traditional martial arts.
as a lifelong karate man lol and as an instructor, i thank you both for your points of view.
I think all styles are useful and there is no grand unified martial art. MMA by its very definition is several different styles combined. Even Mike said "learn boxing, muay Thai and basic grappling (wrestling or BJJ) and then you'll be good". Well hell yeah, you're training 3 different styles! By that definition, Muay Thai isn't legit because it doesn't work on the ground or BJJ because it doesn't work standing up... If Muay Thai and BJJ are legit then why wouldn't karate and BJJ be equally legit? Seems to work pretty good for Stephen Thompson, Conor McGregor, Lyota Machida, Jon Jones and Chuck Liddell. Thompson is a pure karate point fighter with solid ground defense and he wins a lot of UFC fights against a lot of good fighters with lots of different styles. Seems to me Mike's argument is based solely because there are too many McDojos out there and he's right however that doesn't mean that karate/TKD are any less legit or effective, they're just not "trendy" anymore as everybody wants to do MMA now. Karate/TKD are not like the bullshido styles, they're out there competing in tournaments all the time going against other fighters that are trying to punch/kick you in the face if not knock you out. Yeah it's not UFC but BJJ tournaments aren't UFC either and nobody's questioning BJJ's legitimacy. Just get off the couch, pick a style you enjoy training in then go work your ass off and get as good as you possibly can at it and I promise you'll find plenty of rewards.
Well, most Karate styles also train ground techniques, takedowns, etc. I had a pretty good base of everything aside from some stuff like clinchwork by the time I had my 3rd degree! But I agree. Lots of mcdojo’s that ruin reputation!
As an orange belt in Tang Soo Do when I was 9, I can assure you...sidekicks work! Especially when multiple attackers are involved. Now a life-long student of Goju-Ryu since 13. They work on adults who attack you, too.
I started taekwondo when I was eight, got my junior blackbelt at thirteen and my first dan black belt at sixteen. I used to think I was tough, then I watched some mma fights and realised I'd get f'ed up, but at least now I think I can look at what I learnt in an abject way and apply it to what ever fighting styles I try in future.
Very true sir! Good mind set 👍
You are correct about the teacher. I've been to a few dojos and there are McDojo that don't teach proper sparring. Yes, sparring has rules to keep us safe in class, but it still gives you an idea how to act/react. One little tap on the belly isn't going to stop a bad guy so you have to know how to follow up etc.
i do Taekwondo,they usually teach joint locks and clinching we also talk about applications for it,The sparring is full contact to he body and medium contact to the head for lower belts with gear,for the black belts its full contact to the head and body they do teach leg kicks in sparring but theyre rarely ever used
Thank you for the video brother it is very nice. Oss
I always said that people think karate is uneffective because they are looking at diluted thing and associate karate only with point (or even no) sparrings and doing kata
See, I don’t hate Kata for kids (I do hate not sparring). Here’s why, movement is movement. If you do Kata correctly, how much different is it then shadow boxing (a little but hear me out), practicing movements and stances, increasing heart rate, creating muscle memory, etc
Sensei Seth yes i agree 100%, that’s my point, you can’t only do kata and say „i’m a good fighter”, you need to practice those moves under pressure doing drills and in sparrings
Right 👍
4:10-4:30 is pretty much my Shotokan club. The guys in charge are street wise and have been in lots of fights so they run the “gritty” side of it (sparring, self defence, basic Judo, bag work, bash each other constantly, gradings that make you lose the will to live, etc). We do some traditional things as well (a couple of other senseis run that side of things if you just like improving your form and things like that), but we never do Bunkai (except for fun) and competitions. As for belts, they are great and a good way of keeping track, but to me they are purely measures of learning. There is no substitute for experience. As you said, a belt is a piece of cloth.
I feel that it always depends on the teacher and not the style. A good teacher is going to guide you to find what works for you. I trained with karate guys before and its almost always been a good experience.
Loved the sparring between you and Mike! Watching the spar made me wonder about the difference between the karate straight punch (gyaku zuki) and the right cross of boxing. From what I've seen, even karate guys who transition into kickboxing and MMA seem to use a "lengthier" rear straight that has more hip rotation and arm extension. It looks like it has more power and range than a normal boxing cross so I was curious if you notice that being an advantage when you spar. It'd be awesome if you did a video on this one day!
From a bladed stance you sort of have to rotate more in order to get that back hand there! Makes sense why you’d see that!
@@SenseiSeth that makes sense! Do you feel like your back hand has more power or range that way compared to throwing it the "normal" boxing way? I've been trying to add some Karate to my kickboxing game
Side kicks work.... very very well. Especially low side kicks to the shin/knee/thighs or hips.
I recently started at a karate school and when ever we do Kumite or even just practicing they always tell me to follow through and not to just stop there but I’m not yet used to actually hitting someone guess It will just get better with time
I am training karate and I couldnt agree more especially part about catching kicks.
Yea that can be annoying haha
I find it hard to drill my funky moves out of caution because I’m not tryna full speed someone to the head with my stability cedars
I studied some boxing and karate before i took up taekwondo. Funnily enough, taekwondo helped my footwork for boxing and karate helped me understand how to pull combinations for tkd. And my boxing and karate improved my punching for tkd
Exactly! I have done all three as well. It flows together quite nicely
Absolutely agree with these comments. For me in karate it isn’t stress tested enough in class (I am a second Dan also training MMA 1 year). Also in MMA sparring it’s hard to use karate because you pull your kicks and punches yet the grapplers use full force making it hard to keep distance. Either way it’s all learning and fun which is the main point in my eyes.
That’s the thing karate is a great base to defeat the average person like many martial arts but not every single person on the street is a trained dangerous UFC fighter
I think the most effective in a real fight is to use some stuff from different martial arts and kombine them to be prepared for like everything that could happen
I love Karate. I also love Mike's point : my Kata didn't make any sense to me until I took Krav Maga (legit Krav Maga with legit instructors with real fighting experience that made us do lots of sparring and pressure testing). I'm still pursuing Karate because I like to analyse the "secret" techniques "hidden" in the Kata (I use the " " because these techniques become obvious once you look at what other fighting styles are doing). I feel it allows me to go outside of the curriculum to build up my own personal style of fighting (which I consider to be fine, as long as the techniques are pressure tested).
I agree with you, Seth : Karate done the right way is a complete martial art. Unfortunately, many "teachers" just teach plain nonsense (I was instructed two weeks ago on how to catch a jab in mid-air and break my opponent's arm by crossing my two forearms at the correct moment ... Ahem). The Karate I'm used to offers little to no sparring, and the sparring is only limited to a few techniques, completely neglecting all of the grappling moves you can find in Kata.
Glad I found your channel ! It's all about the instructor, and it seems to me that you are among the good ones !
Second to the guy who said all we(karate) needs is solid hands and realistic combos. What made my my karate better and more applicable was boxing and kickboxing. What I like to add is the rules of kickboxing don't lend itself well to the karate style I had developed, so I found myself moving away from it and more towards dutch style kickboxing. However, in MMA i returned to my karate roots and found that alot of the style/strategy applied more in that context.
Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to take Karate. I've taken a bit of Hapkido and that is pretty similar honestly and I'm a big fan of it if it is taught 'correctly.'
I study at a Wae Kune Do dojo and its pretty complete. We learn grappling, throws, striking, weapons and even a little boxing and BJJ being that we also have a BJJ class. I love martial arts in general and can't really hate on any of them aside from those weirdos that think they can knock people out with their chi. Karate is just my favorite because I feel its one of the more complete arts and it lends itself well to tradition and simultaneously personal interpretation . There is a style of karate for every martial artist. I really think there is a style of karate that goes with each other martial art. You should do a video on that :)
I really like both of your logic and would love to talk to either of you one day.
I've recently started karate with my kid (so I'm older) . I'm largely enjoying it. The whole "best" / "complete" martial art thing, is a bit subjective. If best is "defeating your enemy" then I get that using your time to concentrate on "real world" sparring would be best for that. But I also get that could still fall under Karate, and it would be up to your club /instructor how many hours are spent on that. And to agree with detractors of karate, I doubt most clubs do concentrate on that.
Well it’s all about pressure testing and actually thinking about if your stuff works out full speed. With a lot that karate teaches, it’s hard to do that without being dangerous, then there’s plenty that would come out as bs as well! So it’s a weird place