Is MMA a Martial Arts Style?! Fight Talk w/ Icy Mike | Hard2Hurt
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 23 авг 2020
- One of the biggest arguments in the Martial Arts field is "Is MMA a style?!" And my answer is... I honestly have no idea any more. I don't know if Mixed Martial Arts should be a style or not.. It is easy to say that things like Karate, Taekwondo, Muay Thai, Kalaripayattu and more are Martial Arts Styles, but is MMA anything more than a sport? and SHOULD it be practiced like a style? In this video, Icy Mike from Hard2Hurt and I chat about what makes MMA a style... or not a style.
Icy Mikes Channel
/ @hard2hurt
WANT TO LEARN MORE FROM ME??
senseiseth.teachable.com/
Want Hayabusa Gear?? Use my link!
www.Hayabusafight.com/senseiseth/
Go follow my Insta for videos of cool kicks and me getting beat up by kids:
/ sensei_seth
www.SenseiSeth.com/
Songs..
Intro music:
“Flintstone” by Cxdy
/ acrproduction9
• (FREE) TOKYO'S REVENGE...
Outro Music:
“Pillow Talk” X I X X
Music Provided by RUclipsrs Music
• Video
Karate, Taekwondo, Muay Thai, Kung Fu, MMA, UFC, Sensei Seth, Kata, Kumite, Sparring, Fight, Boxing, Kick, Side Kick, Yoko Geri, Roundhouse Kick, Spinning Wheel Kick, Tricking, Bottlecap Challenge 
Спорт
Styles have a defined, closed cannon of movement. MMA does not. MMA has specific objectives that can be met in numerous ways. Take for example- executing and/or defending takedown off the cage. That concept doesn’t exist in other combat sports, and it doesn’t exist in the cannon of movement of any mainstream fighting styles. But there’s no codified MMA style method of doing those things. There are higher percentage techniques, there are lower percentage techniques.
I’m trying to come up with a cool metaphor to summarize this.. but I can’t, so I’ll just pin the comment instead 😂😂 well said, sir
But most of those high percentage techniques for MMA that we have identified so far come from a very small subset of martial arts, and it's important to acknowledge that too.
What is interesting is that MMA is nothing really original. Most of its content is very similar to Hapkido, which is older. However, MMA misses out on many of the important aspects of Hapkido that make it so well liked in hazardous professions. Hapkido despite many not knowing of its existence, is frequently taught in militaries and law enforcement agencies. One of the important ones is being able to fight without assuming a fighting stance and disguise one's true capabilities in order to draw less attention to one's self. Not good for a MMA fighter, but certainly useful for a soldier in enemy territory or FBI/CIA agent.
@@hornetc5585 In fairness MMA (which is a style based on the sport) is also taught to the military e.g. Navy Seals get taught MMA.
@@iorekby Almost every martial art is taught to the military in some capacity. The thing is though, Hapkido teaches a lot of things necessary for life or death situations that MMA doesn't really teach. And a thing to consider, those types of elite soldiers do plenty of very rough contact sparring. I wouldn't be surprised if many of them could go toe to toe with some professional fighters. After all, they are essential professional fighters, except their version of fighting practically has no rules. If they could deal with the stress of someone trying to kill them, the stress of a cage fight would probably be very minor. Their lifestyle is what makes it effective. But it still really isn't a style, it still has no distinct way of movement. For Hapkido, for example, constant movement and a shifting balance is a key feature that makes one harder for an opponent to hit. You're rapidly transitioning into various stances and postures. In about 9/10 scenarios where people are wanting MMA, Hapkido is probably the better option. For that reason, it's really just a sport, which isn't bad. People forget the reason humans have sports in the first place is usually to hone survival skills (particularly for things like hunting or war).
Lol this video is way too thoughtful and reasonable hahaha. Theres nothing inflammatory to argue about.
It’s impossible
When I first met MMA guys at a party in the early 2000s, who started this as their first martial art, I almost crashed the party by joking how bad their kneestrikes and kicks are. (Okay, I also never liked people, who come to a party in "MMA"-shirts. )
I think the training in MMA-Gyms is better now. But still I think it is to confusing to work on many different skillsets at once without allready having reached a decent level in either a striking art or grappling art. Worse, some even combined different striking arts, that are not best to crosstrain for beginners.
Ight Adam Kempo
lmaooo
I love these
12:30 you should tell Mike the next time someone asks if he teaches Krav Maga, tell them: “It’s like Krav Maga, but it works.” There’s so much bad Krav Maga out there.
I’m an Israeli, I’ve served in a combat unit and obviously I’ve trained Krav Maga during the service. Every Krav Maga I saw outside of a military context was a mishmash of eclectic self defense stuff. Krav Maga itself isn’t a martial art at all, it’s just a set of techniques (mostly brutal) to neutralize an enemy person, and the success rate isn’t that good. It’s your last-last-last resort.
@@Petruscaceres
I was blessed to train with a former IDF commander and he did a great job training it. There is a lot of trash out there.
I just klicked on this vid because i know ur opinion is different. I expected some counter arguments xd
@@Petruscaceres Palestine
@@StandWatie1862 Great argument
The fact you can tell the difference from a traditional wrestler and an mma learned wrestler says a lot. Same with boxing. No one boxes like Mike Tyson in mma because you gotta protect your legs and takedowns ect. So it’s a whole different style.
The two fools talk while the one wise man sits there and listens ;) much love guys
king of the hill gets surprisingly violent. yep.
Imagine being Seth working so hard to get his Marketing MBA to be called “Adams Kenpo” over the phone
J R Hahahaha for real
J R my own dang fault
I believe it has become a style in its self . I have never trained outside of England but I have trained at multiple gyms under the banner of MMA .
I came to it with a boxing background . My best mate and sparing partner started from a tkd background . The more we trained MMA the more we met in the middle .
It has a definite stance at this point . Look at Max Holloway he really is the personification of it .
The stance is closest to boxing but it's adjusted . The guard is slightly lower and slightly further from the face than a pure boxer . But the stance is more bladed than classic MT and slightly more lent forward ready to sprawl .
Though sprawling has allso evolved from a normal wrestling sprawl like the chuck times . You don't meet it and lock anymore most everyone pivots and sends the person past them and then strikes from there new Angle .
The foot work has become all about switch stepping and not ever being on the centre line .
Dominic cruise started that but he didn't invent it he stole it from the boxer Willie Pep. But it is now the standard for MMA.
If you walk in to any gym that is genuinely putting fighters in the cage regardless of lvl then the bread and butter basics from stance to strikes to grapple to footwork is now a set formula .
That formula is ONE of the best ways to fight full stop and ONE of the fastest ways to be able to defend yourself against a drunk idiot .
It's the best way to fight in a cage under MMA rules . Whatever background you come from if you do MMA the stance and footwork will slowly change until you are moving closer to that standard.
The best take that standard and then go train different traditional martial arts and add to it . But there is still a definite MMA style at this point that nobody currently fighting strays that far from in reality.
It does genuinely have a set move base . You walk into a MMA gym with no fighting experience at all they will train you as follows .
1 set you in the stance I pre mentioned .
2 start teaching jab cross exactly like a boxer .
Next hooks and elbows . They are trained together because elbows help a noob get the hook movement aswell . Next upper cuts and upward elbows.
Then they will teach lead leg and trail leg roundhouse . It's halfway between tkd and Mt style of chucking it . Why because the blading lvl of the stance is halfway between mt and tkd . Then the front kick .
Once they have those movers and the footwork you start them sparing .
Then comes takedowns anti takedowns .
Then they will teach you bjj . But again it's adjusted it's in a t shirt with punches .
So it has set moves .
MMA is not a style, period. Boxing is boxing, you learn Boxing, then compete in MMA. You learn various Martial Arts, and compete in MMA. You compete in sports, you practice styles.
Every specific you named like Max Holloway is because you're not wearing heavy boxing gloves you can hide behind.
It's like being in a street fight. So things change. Techniques change. There is no new style being made.
It's just, everyone sees something on TV, and majority of people wanna go to the gym so bad so they can be pretentious and call them self an MMA fighter.
MMA can't be a style for this reason, im gonna play Devil's advocate here too by the way I address MMA:
You have to itemize MMA as a style and not all MMA Gyms even teach the same shit. One might do Muay, BJJ, Boxing.
One might do Wrestling, Kickboxing
Etc.
No stances, strikes, or grapples come from anything called "MMA" even the cage takedown thing, that's still Judo, Wrestling, or BJJ, a cage is just there.
Also, it's like, after (me, personally) learning Muay, BJJ, Boxing, Karate AND TKD all these years I don't understand why you would wanna take everything you know and just call it MMA. Which again, is just a sport. It tells me you're more concerned with aligning yourself with what you see on TV, the UFC and shit, than really being a Martial Artist, who's in this for the knowledge and culture. We call this pretentious.
Since MMA is a sport and that only, you aren't an MMA Fighter unless you compete in MMA, period. There is no Gym that could make you a Competetive Fighter. Schools make you a student. Its up to you to become a Fighter.
The least you could do, is be knowledgeable about WHAT it is that you're about to equip into your toolbelt to take to war, instead of hopping up and saying "Oh! Ima do MMA and go fight in the UFC!" It's a CASUAL'S take.
I wanted to take a nearby JKD class out of curiosity. I read the instructor's website for his gym and, I kid you not, he listed over 15 different styles that he was supposedly a "master" of. I went to the class and there was another student who had taken it before and I told them "I highly doubt he's a master of all of those." The student just looked at me like "you're crazy, he's really good."
He spent 75% of that first lesson talking about Bruce Lee and street fights, then taught the jab and a low kick as his first lesson because it was "the easiest way to beat someone in a bar fight." The first class was within a trial period so I left and I got my money back. I'll stick to boxing and wrestling, thanks.
You’ve been at McDojo, my friend.
Yikes 😬😬 Good eye, though!
@@paulbadman8509 Yeah. I still like the idea of JKD, but I just didn't like the McDojo version of it.
SwordTune JKD isn’t a style, it’s a concept - include what is effective, exclude what is ineffective, make it your own fit. This concept birthed MMA back in a day.
@@paulbadman8509 Exactly. I like the idea, but that guy was talking about Bruce Lee so much, it was like he was just teaching how to look like Bruce Lee instead of teaching how to fight.
I'd describe MMA as a canvas and and each style is a different paint. You can paint on a canvas with just blue, but it looks better with other colours as well.
Interesting take!!
I sometimes say I train in MMA because it's a whole lot easier than saying I train in Brazilian jiu jitsu, and striking which is a combination of western boxing and kickboxing with some Muay Thai geared towards MMA. So I say I train in MMA more so as a training methodology rather than an art.
Jup, same with me. Normaly I just say I do sports, because though it's mostly barbell strength stuff and "mma" I do other things aswell just to keep it fun. But yeah, maybe I should just make some spreadsheet with everything I do including the percentage :D
Same as me not gonna lie. It’s easier than me saying “I train this and that” even though me saying I trained MMA means I train in boxing wrestling muay thai etc.
MMA is a Sport, within that Sport there are different styles of MMA.
Punching into a clinch into a takedown/trip, ground and pound was our karate classes back in 2002.
thanks for the video! I hate it when people say that mma's a martial arts style while it's actually not.
Thanks for watching!
I like this video because I’d love to start MMA one day but I actually put in thought because it’s MIXED martial arts meaning it’s a mixture of styles so I decided to start with BJJ
As a martial arts instructor specializing in kickboxing and jiujitsu, i had previously tried to teach a full mma class but after a while a felt people were not evolving quickly, too much to cover. So i moved back into teaching the arts seperatly and it yields way better results. The REAL mma styl is basically the glue that fits everthing together but if your athlete kinda suck everywhere they're not ready for the glue
Ouuuu I understand 💯
Actually, the problem we had in one of our gyms was the opposite. We had people attending MMA class, but they wouldn't do the grappling or kickboxing classes.
How was that a problem?im new to this so idk😂😂
Light head touch, medium body hits, and add in takedowns and submission grappling. It's really fun when you don't have to worry about CTE. Now both partners need to know have an understanding of levels of intensity and knowledge of what would have been effective with more power.
Mma sparring is one of the most fun and complex things you can do for exercise. Lol
You can't train a good jab by only sparring. You need to invest time in practicing and mastering the jab.
Same with MMA. You can't get better at MMA without practicing the individual pieces. MMA is nothing without different arts together.
I agree!
And there are techniques like ground and pound and hiding shots with your striking that you can only do in mma
Straight facts. I’m a Kaju guy (Kajukenbo) and we practice techniques from each art, and once we put it together it becomes “mma” but that doesn’t make mma a style
Too bad Rokas from martial arts journey hasn't gotten that through his thick skull and is just RUclips's MMA fanboy.
I agree with this completely. That's why I don't consider it a style. A style that mixes martial arts would be something like kudo. You don't get classes on kyokushin and judo, you get kudo.
I think that's the distinction between "mma" and a style
MMA isn’t a sport, it’s more of an idea. The idea of taking what is useful and discarding what isn’t, the master himself said it better
“Absorb what is useful
Discard what is not
Add what is uniquely your own”
-Bruce Lee
It also is a sport though in the sense that MMA is the name of a sport
That was also said by Chairman Mao. It's likely a very old adage that we just don't recognise.
It's impossible to give a definite answer as long as it's not settled what 'Mixed' is supposed to mean: is it hinting at the amalgamation of styles/arts or has it to do with the open nature of competition in the corresponding sport? (Open as in open to competitors of any background.)
The amalgamation of styles seems to me the natural consequence of pitting different styles against each other in the arena/cage/ring.
I totally agree
I go to an MMA class where we learn to combine strikes with grappling. We do drills with strikes leading into takedowns and then dominant positions. We then spar with both strikes and grappling trying to apply what we've learned. MMA is a style the same way kickboxing is a style. There might be different versions of it, but it's still a style.
This was really thought provoking, thanks Seth 😊
I believe Firas trains his students in standup and grappling (sure he has someone come in to sharpen up the wrestling though. There are MMA based systems though, in Japan you got Shooto schools and Kudo aka Daido Juku. I believe that Combat Sambo is taught as a system in Russia. In the US you can probably find an Erik Paulson school that has a curriculum too even German Jiu Jitsu would apply I think. I know there was a school here that taught MMA classes. Usually start with a standup technique, then a Clinch, some kind of takedown then ground. I mean the BJJ you learn for MMA is so different from what you learn in regular sport based schools. Lot more wall work, ground and pound as well. So is it a Martial Art? Maybe in some cases currently but in the future I think it will for sure be.
Basically mma is the style of having a floor grappling abilty mixed with a cage and clinch striking/grappling ability. Mixed with a striking ability. That doesn't use things that break mma rules. aka groin strikes/ eye pokes / small joint manipulation etc.
Mixing basic wrestling tweakwondo wouldn't make it mma because they wouldn't understand striking in the clinch or guard systems. Cage wrestling etc.
Krav maga mixed with karate wouldn't be mma because they use illegal strikes for the sport.
Pretty clearly a style. Just because u need multiple coaches to learn it extra well doesn't make it somehow not a style.
My local gym teaches separate classes for wrestling/jiu jitsu/boxing/kickboxing but also has mma classes where they combine techniques and concepts from the separate classes, I think it was the best way to teach mma because you still got the specific lessons you needed to go along with the combined classes
Man that beat is so cold lol PERFECT!
Clear, engaging, and fun video. Thanks : ) Greetings from Lithuania. I watch both of your channels guys , some great material for me as I start my journey into martial arts world
That’s awesome! Thanks for watching!
Great Video as always 👍
So you guys talk a lot about having the separate classes with no overlap and that disqualifying it from being a martial art. I have had a different experience and would like to get your opinion on this example:
The MMA classes I go to are split up into Striking and Grappling sessions. The striking sessions focus on boxing and kicks mostly, but also feature clinchwork and takedowns from that context (it is usually a series of related techiques each day and some days will be focused on takedown setups from striking or clinch striking into takedowns). The grappling sessions are mostly BJJ, but also cover when and how to strike while on the ground and also include takedowns sometimes too. Also, after each session, there is sparring which starts out as pure striking or rolling in the first half but ends with mixed striking/takedowns and grappling with strikes allowed in the second half. In terms of coaches, there is one coach who tends to lead the sessions and a few auxiliary coaches who specialise in grappling or striking that help (these coaches also train in the other fields too).
What are your thoughts on this kind of training being called its own martial arts style? I think it has the distinguishing feature that it borrows techiques from other martial arts but its MAIN FOCUS is the transitions and gaps between these distinct techiques, the transitions between striking and takedowns and grappling. I.E. MMA is the martial art of the gaps.
What Mike said about his MMA club is really interesting. At mine it’s all taught separately but it’s still an MMA class. You turn up and you’ll do striking or grappling on the day but there’s no striking class on a schedule, u show up and then u find out what you’re doing. It’ll be “ok today guys were doing the clinch” or whatever. Sometimes the class is split like we’ll do first half wrestling then finish with striking but it’s rare, pretty much only use the wrestling to tire us out then do something technical at the end while we’re exhausted. Bjj is the only thing taught separately bc it’s taught by a different coach.
My favorite thing about this video is, how these guys are able to exchange in conversation and bounce off of eachother properly while seeking an understanding. Such a great discussion, I wish I could have been there. This video should have been titled: "How To Have A Proper Conversation."
Haha nobody would’ve watched it then 😂😂
I like the idea of mma being a bridging style between separate styles. I also believe that disciplines should be separate and then have a class to blend it together. Always cool to see your collabs
Thumbs up for your channel sensei Seth. Your content is great and variable. As a former Judo black belt and MMA fan I consider the latter not a martial art but a sport. Traditional martial arts also teach the philosophy behind them. This is a very important aspect to help shape a better person - which helped me a lot in life.
Thanks for watching! And I agree. I think at the moment it’s more sport
Yeah man MMA is the best! Taekwondo and HEMA. Kicks and swords bro!
😂😂😂
You know it's an actual sport with rules right lmao
Long weapons i guess
We need to just cut the crap and demand chair strikes in MMA u u
transcending history and the world, a tale of swords and souls, eternally retold.
Would be kind of cool to see a video of you sparring someone with your flashlight
Lol that would be cool
In my gym we have MMA classes and intro group does a lot of movement, getting fit and and basics of boxing, then basics of bjj, then basics of wrestling (takedows are part of bjj/wrestling is more like clinchwork) and how to mix it up, meanwhile encoureging to go to seperate classes for bjj , boxing, MMA standup/k1, wrestling, and all the good stuff so it makes accesible for new guys that first have to get in shape, learn how to move and basics of fighting and then they can go to more advanced classes called P2 witch is basicly if you know your groundgame and standup they teach you more advanced ways to mix it up plus ground and pound, and then you can also go to pro classes where you have guys that are amatour and pro fighters doing stuff you guys were talking about so it makes it hard enought to not be shit, and you cant really advance if you dont go to seperate classes and actually invest time so you have to know your stuff or stay in this intro/for fun group of guys doing the basic stuff for fitness
I think that’s a great way to separate it!
@@SenseiSeth and about that style conversation, MMA itself is not a style but it kinda forces everyone to make their own style so MMA is not a style but every fighter has his own MMA style (if that makes sense)
these classes cant be an hour long, literally 10 minutes a style 2 mins per style to explain everything. really going nowhere fast. gotta be 2 hrs plus. also basic bjj? is that even possible
@@zephune9506 1)Yes you can learn bjj without knowing all the stuff, its possible 2)You didnt get it, its not "ok now we are doing 10 minutes of boxing then 10 min of bjj", you can work on boxing first 6 or 8 lessons then other stuff
Lol this was great I needed to hear it. Over a decade ago I walked into an MMA gym and I started training BJJ and Muay Thai.
I felt betrayed when I found out that their was no MMA class because what I wanted was an MMA fight.
I think I still resented them slightly for that u til hearing this 😂🤣
Thanks for explaining. Now I know what s up with MMA
Nice video bro
I have a request for something both Sensei Seth and Icy Mike could demonstrate.
The Sai and the Jutte: Are either weapons practical for modern self-defence applications?
Every gym should have mma days for situation mma scenarios like mikes video on fighting off your back
if you have all day to train, then mma as a single style would be amazing and definitely S tier. providing your single instructor knows each style to a good level (muay thai, wrestling, bjj would be best combo)
Maybe some Boxing too many Muay thai legends developed a hybrid style of boxing and muay thai.
The unique ruleset of MMA, including the allowance of strikes on the ground and the freedom to transition between striking and grappling, demands a fundamentally different strategic approach compared to its parent disciplines. This strategic aspect shapes the way fighters move, anticipate, and react, leading to a distinct rhythm and flow that characterizes MMA as a whole. Therefore, while it's true that MMA draws heavily from existing martial arts, the unique adaptations and strategic demands of the sport elevate it beyond simply being a mashup of other disciplines. It's a constantly evolving fighting system with its own identity and set of skills, shaped by the crucible of competition and the innovarion of its athletes.
If a word can be accurately used to describe and predict the type of movement I expect a martial artist to employ, you could argue calling it a style. If someone claimed to be have the "mixed martial artist style" I would be correct in assuming they would take a specific type of stance, keep a specific type of distance, and employ a specific kind of approach to fighting. And you can further clarify within proper context that its a specialized striking style, grappling style, karate based style, etc. But I would make a distinction between "styles of fighting" and "schools of fighting" with the former being used to describe individual tendencies and the latter describing a broader method of teaching. For example, in the sport of boxing there are many styles, and many different types of schools (ie the Mexican school, Cuban school, Inner City American school) that can still produce different styles of boxers.
Hmmm.. idk how I feel about this.. I’m kind of into it
The majority of what I learned was Ju Jutsu and Sport Judo, supplemented by Goju Ryu Karate and American Kickboxing. I never had any desire to compete, and these days I wouldn't be in any shape to do that. Let alone consider MMA. But, there were plenty of students who crossed trained in MMA gyms that I've practiced with before. Especially in the Ju Jutsu and Judo classes.
But is it a STYLE?
@@SenseiSeth I think it depends mostly on who you ask. The debate shown in this video was very informative.
mma means mixed martial arts.Thus it can’t, in principle be considered a style
It can be considered a sport though, and when you say MMA the nomenclature is generally accepted to refer to a particular sport. Sure, if you do say TKD and Aikido, you can tell everyone your do "mixed martial arts". Prepared to get laughed at pretty hard though, because like it or not, the term MMA generally means a a sport to most people
Hu Mann Yeah but that’s definition of MMA is wrong
IT'S IN THE NAME. It's a competition that allows the USE of numerous martial arts. You don't train MMA you train for a MMA bout.
You could have said that 20 years ago, right now there are gyms that train you in a style thats a mix of BJJ, Muay Thai, Grappling, etc.
You can clearly see a diference in stance and movement between a guy that trains only muay thai and a guy that trains a mixed style.
I did it. I created a belt system for MMA. Been at it for about 7 years now, still just getting started. At the end of the day, all martial arts simply study hand-to-hand combat; the methodology has just become much more versatile and refined thanks to the popularization of MMA. It's true that in a sense, you do need to lower the expected technical proficiency of students in each range (Striking, Wrestling, and Grappling) compared to a Boxing or Jiu-Jitsu class, but I think it's more important that students have a well-rounded basic skillset before they specialize.
Thanks for sharing, Sensei Seth, interesting exchange!
Much respect,
Patrick Fulop
Can you do a video on the spinning back kick/ turning sidekick mate?
interesting thought technology as applied to my preferred martial arts Style... which in it's contextual heyday was a place where guys who studied a thing learned how to decontextualize their thing
I feel that a mixed artist is not someone like me who does boxing, Muay Thai, and bjj. I am just a martial artist, now whenever I go later on to a gym that has the mma rule set and sparring consists of mma rules and I start mixing my techniques, then I will become a mixed martial artist.
I feel like this is a silly argument. Most martial art styles you refer to are ancient in age, and probably started off in a similar way to mma; studying various ways to improve martial skills (for real combat, but in this era we have no war, so purely for sport). Over the course of thousands of years, these styles broke into their own factions. Since mma is pretty much in its infancy compared to other styles, we can't really compare them, but we still shouldn't write it off as not a style. Eventually it will have its own variances of the original martial arts it sources, such as wrestling, karate ect. Currently it takes directly from these sources and does its best job to blend them together, but eventually everything will be so well blended that it will become its own style.
Just my take.
It’s a very fair point! But imo things should still adapt with the times
Nope, actually, very few martial arts that are practiced today are more than 1-2 centuries tops.
I think the best way to describe what "MMA" is that its a "rule set." I wouldn't say its a style because you can have two MMA fighters who approach things almost entirely differently. That said...there is a "standard mixture" for MMA which is an American collegiate/freestyle wrestling base with watered down Muay Thai and BJJ bolted on for striking and submissions. That mixture is sort of becoming its own style. Its sort of a subtle matter of linguistics in determining what context the word is being used in -- do they mean "MMA" as all possible variations on a rule set or do they mean "MMA" as shorthand for that most-common mixture.
Consider this metaphor.
"Pizza" generally means a bread base (pan, thin crust, cracker crust, flatbread, etc.) with a layer of sauce (red, pesto, bbq, etc.), a layer of cheese (usually, but not always mozzarella...lots of different blends), and toppings (near infinite). But those elements can be interpreted so many different ways. So, when people are describing a specific dish, they usually don't just say "pizza" -- they say "pesto sausage pizza" or "bbq chicken pizza" or "Hawaiian pizza" or etc etc. Still...when you say "pizza" what most people think of is red sauce, mozzarella cheese, and pepperoni.
So you have to judge from the context how they're using the word.
In my hometown there is an MMA gym - the classes they offer are: BJJ (Gi and No-Gi), Boxing, Muay Thai, some other weird shit like Wing Tsun or Capoeira and.. MMA. Haven't been there yet and due to Corona I probably won't join the gym this year (because they might close sports down for months like they did in March), but there you have both. "Regular" martial arts AND MMA classes. Small edit: I think the MMA classes are meant for people who are somewhat advanced in other stuff. I went there to get to know the gym a little and they highly suggested that I should do boxing classes first before even trying MMA.
Calling MMA a style is, I guess, just a misuse of language: its like calling the act of baking something in the oven "a pastry". Mixed martial arts is the mixing of martial arts, if the RESULT of mixing martial arts is a martial art in it self (just look at Kyokushin: it was a more subtle mixing of martial arts) that is fine, but dont call the results by the same name as the process.... is my take on the whole MMA-naming thing :P
Also keep up the great content!
Nah its definitely a style. Mix any two or three martial arts you want and they still wouldn't have all the basic skills of an mma fighter
Not the point, like I said, sure its a style but its still missnamed... and yes its a convenince thing, who wants to name every combination of styles and its just easier to use the umbrella term
As far as miss use of language go’s most “martial arts” should have never been called that.
@@edrichlouw1790 haha yhea true
But when you mix something it turns into something different which is mma so I think it's a style.
I think MMA has become two things: a philosophy and a rule set for competition (well, there are a number of variations on the exact rules depending on the organization). The philosophy, from what I can see, is this: being a well rounded martial artist who uses simple but highly efficient and highly effective techniques at all the different ranges of fighting. I'm not saying every fighting is exactly that, but I think in the world of martial arts, MMA has caused a major shift in how we look at effective martial arts and has helped foster this philosophy.
It’s not at all uncommon for Taekwondo and Tang so do schools in South Africa to call themselves korean karate on all thier marketing because karate is one of the more well known things. I’ve also seen kickboxing clubs do the same. The only place people seem to advertise using their real style names are in big cities.
I think one of the better arguments in support of the "not a style" thesis is that, 1.) a style can be applied in other, similarly ruled sports, and 2.) MMA is a composite of styles so citing it as the style of a fighter tells the listener nothing useful.
1.) For instance, a Muay Thai style can be employed in a Glory or K1 kickboxing match. Petchpanomrung and Superbon come to mind. Similarly, a Sambo or American wrestling style can be utilized to great effect in MMA. But MMA can't be reasonably employed in other sports. If you say a fighter has an MMA style when they are fighting in a KB match you have not narrowed anything down. What you're really saying is that they are using one or more of the styles that compose many MMA fighters' backgrounds, ie boxing or Sanda, which leads to point #2.
2.) If you say a fighter has an MMA style it doesnt give your listener any information. They might be a grappler or a kickboxer, or both. Because MMA is by definition a composite of styles, to say they are using an MMA style is just so vague as to render the statement meaningless, akin to saying "I like things".
I've always thought that MMA stood for "Mixed Martial Arts." So if you practice like boxing, TKD, and BJJ consistently and can switch between the 3 in a live situation you are a Mixed Martial Artist.
If you are a boxer that *dabbles* in another style to supplement your fighting, you are still a boxer.
What a very interesting video I agree with some things and disagree with others might even make my own video on a topic lol I think if there was more gym what just trained pure MMA they would be good classes as there is a lot of things in other disciplines you don’t need or use at all for MMA
Is MMA a Style? If not.. what is it?
No it is not.
Many gyms that mix totally different arts. Can be okay, if it is taught well, but most likely can also end in doing nothing very good, only average.
For starting in combat sports it may really be better to first find an "isolated" art of striking OR grappling. Should also be something you like to get your inner nerd working on "getting better and better".
Also it is helpful to "know your root art" really good, so you can better understand to combine it with another art and chose something with similar stances, body mechanics or tactics if possible, so you do not have a hole in your movement.
Its a sport :)
I think it more less is. The reason being is that MMA is a SPORT in itself with its own ruleset. Just like taekwondo is missing punches to the face, MMA misses groinstrikes, soccer kicks, headbutts, eye gouges (only kinda due to the gloves lol), has rounds, is usually fought in a cage and never has multiple attackers or weapons. It's a style born out of other styles for sure, so it's almost like a half style. Another important thing is There are lots of things that are MMA that are very sport specific. Ie, the ground fighting with no biting or headbutts. The standing up using the cage game. The way cardio plays out with the fact the fight has a time limit. The way the fighters can punch because they have wrapped, gloved hands rather than unsupported bare knuckles. Lots of techniques are used that aren't going to work as well if there are changes made.
Is it its own style? Kinda. Parts of it are unique and it's own style. Parts of it are borrowing from other styles, and other elements are unique to the ruleset or have uniquely evolved like ground and pound or punching to takedowns due to more open rules.
Calling it a style of competition makes sense too though.
What Mike says around 5:00 makes me think about Bruce Lee and the philosophy of Jeet Kune Do, which has been argued to be the first MMA "style". And I know you said in that video where you rate the styles that JKD has become somewhat of a style recently, but that you also recognize that it is originally meant to be a philosophy of how to create your own personal style. MMA follows in that people learn multiple styles and use what works best for them, which is why so many MMA fighters have such a variety of techniques and styles and varying degrees of ability in those styles despite all beings considered Mixed Martial Artists.
Mexican Martial Arts is the best style there is from what I've been told.
I feel the idea of MMA is really more different martial arts styles mixing together against eachother.
A black belt in Kyokushin and Judo said this to me. MMA is the Conception of a new Martial art. Karate wasn’t made overnight, it took centuries before it became karate. Judo wasn’t t made overnight, it took centuries before it became judo. So right now looking at MMA just look at it as the beginning stages of a new martial art in our current time.
I would consider MMA a style. It incorporates aspects from many different fighting styles, which are modified to work in an MMA ruleset.
The issue is that any martial art can be modified to fit within any given ruleset. But then the issue becomes effectiveness. MMA in the wording itself specifies that it isn't a syle (Mixed Martial Arts) It is many things, but it can never be one specific thing.
info to IcyMike: I do not know how it is in american Kyokushin Organisations, but in Europe most known Organisations have a requirement for belts to do "free sparring rounds" (Jiyu Kumite) and often requirements to compete in full contact to get a brown or black belt.
Hopefully he sees it, thanks bud!
I agree with you guys but at the same time when someone asks me what I train I'm gonna say MMA and not "oh you know some boxing, a lil muay thai, lil bjj etc." It's so much easier to just say mma.
The fundamentals of MMA are really easy to learn the big issue is teaching a big class massively slows individual progression and one on one tutoring is way better for quick progression but that doesn't make it profitable unless your training MMA to people actively competing.
MMA is definitely its own thing if we can classify Boxing as a martial art then MMA is too.
I would say that MMA is definitely a style. People who train MMA generally train high percentage techniques originally taken from other martial arts, sure. The reality of competition results have shaved off most other stuff so that a bundle of core techniques remain. That is both a mindset (use what works) and a set of techniques that are as distinct as any other martial art. Very many techniques overlap across traditional martial arts too, who invented the punch? I've heard both of you say that how you train is more important than what you train and I agree with that, in that sense a jiujitsu and a boxing school could have more in common than two karate schools. Reasoning further from that I would say that most MMA schools train with resistance, aliveness etc and have a way of training that has more similarites across schools than most other styles have.
11:50 it kinda is in the netherlands, or at least what people mean when they say kickboxing is generally the same in my experience.
[ex pro muay thai here; basic BJJ knowledge, only now allowed to start MMA]
It feels to me that MMA is a sport or simply a ruleset.
A ruleset can have many styles. A standing ruleset with no hand striking to the head could have several styles such as kyokushin or taekwondo.
Getting the basics of each of the broad components of mma require years, so agree on the statement that "MMA class open to all" would likely be terrible.
Standing class, take down class, standing to take down setups and transitions, ringcraft, ... Too many components require basic knowledge and actual sparring to make "mma" attractive to all.
Some gyms seem to get it right with requiring a minimum proficiency in standing, take down , ground before allowing to attend the transitions & setups classes, with a heavy focus on sparring and competition prep.
On the other hand, there are certain aspects of MMAs that just cannot be found in other MAs, such as ground and pound, generally ground work with punches involved, takedowns where you are at risk of getting punched/kicked.. that need to be trained speciffically for the sport and can be argued to be "MMA style"
When u guys describing an MMA only class it sounds like you are discussing an Aikido class :-D
I think a good way to discern it is uppercase MMA and lowercase mma. MMA is not a style, but lowercase mma is your typical "mma" class, where they teach a combination of boxing, muay thai, wrestling and bjj.
What about martial arts like hapkido that were built from 6 different arts?
There is a school in our area that calls themselves Tae Kwon Do and teaches classes in Boxing, Krav, and TKD, all separate but a lot of students take multiple disciplines.
Sounds effective
I feel like a general mma class would be exactly like a street fight class but with rules. So they probably would teach cookie cutter styles. Like game plans for each person. That’d be interesting.
Your Kung Fu in this video is top notch, all three of you.
Great video Adam.
I got confused I thought they meant Mexican martial arts when they say mma by the grand master
I like the definition of MMA being put forward rather than being one style it being a 'Bridge between Styles'.
Though is karate not a style if you have different people coach different things
I just have this visual of two beginners lightly sparring. One goes for a double leg and expects the other possibly to sprawl but instead knees the others face. I would imagine having controlled sparring like that pretty hard to accomplish.
So yeah probably best to start with separate classes for "wrestling" and "kick boxing" first. But I'd still like to have the option of doing both with an eye towards combining them.
I'd immediately join Icy Mike's club if I were on that continent :) Currently happily on a thai boxing course though.
Beginners rarely spar anyway
@@SenseiSeth Oh sure :) But even for relative beginners who get to start sparring it's quite the feat. Thanks for the reply!
You’re totally correct. The more complex, the longer it should take to get there
My dad gets mma confused with kick boxing. Mainly because it's rules are too vague.
Haha fair!
It would be really interesting to compare the average mma practitioner to the average karateka or kickboxer instead of comparing professional fighters to your average jo. From my personal experience the average kickboxer is a soccer mom doing cardio kickboxing every other day too stay in shape. It’s funny how we compare a karate black belt who almost never competed in his own sport with a professional fighter but we don’t compare high school rugby players with professional football players when we compare the sports.
MMA is a martial art by itself, if we consider that the original root was Pankration (ancient greek) wich was a martial art by itself.
So what I am hearing (two years after the conversation) is that MMA is not a style partly because it does not teach the basics?
I think teahcing martial arts in multiple styles isnt a bad thing, just will take longer to master, but like a focus on the general striking, grappling, and the transitins between may work better than teaching a lot of individual martial arts themself.
MMA as a style is best defined by what you have to be prepared for, not necessarily what you are prepared to do. You have to bring an iceberg of skills to you match because a striker is easily wrestled to the ground , a wrestler is easily submitted by a submission fighter and a submission fighter that can't wrestle gets knocked out. You not only have to have an A game you have to have B & C games that are good enough to keep you in your A game if the oponent has the skills to push the fight in those directions. The sets of skills you decide to you use for your A game and which ones for your B & C games are what defines your substyle. Of course there is a ridiculous amount of substyles as you can pick from any of the TMA's to fill in your A, B & C and the order of importance placed on the skils vary as well.
GSP, Damien Maia, Dominick Cruz, Brian Ortiz and Isreal Adesenya all have very distinct polished MMA styles.
You guys are absolutely right in that you need to lean MA first before you can learn to MMA.
I would say MMA is a platform where you can try your skillset against entirely different skillsets under wider rules than usual in other sports. It is very good at combining aspects of martial arts together and main weakness is that it is still under pre-specified rules (only one opponent, in cage, set times, ...) so bad for outside if you are fixed to those standards.
The mma gym I go too is basically just Muay Thai and jiu jitsu
I think mma is essentially a style in two senses. If i take mauy thai at several different gyms that train mma fighters the teaching will be very similar; certainly far more similar than silat to tang so do to choy li fut or whatever. One crucial similarity is that each coach seems to bring their own mma-ish mix to their coaching--whereas I'd expect a bit more uniformity in a mauy thai gym.
Second when taught as mma, we drill the exact same strategies blending striking, wrestling, and grappling. And it looks remarkably similar to the combat sport of mma. It that sense mma can be categorized as a style. Albeit a lot less attractive because, as you all noted, the athleticism and knowledge required to make it effective, or even elegant, are ridiculously high.
Personally I love having mma classes as an option--though it's a bit much for my age, nearing 50. It helps develop deeper appreciation.
I think mma as a style would be general training of wrestling boxing and jujitsu training.
Old movie I would think of MMA as a skill set. The idea being that you need a you need to develop a certain set of skills to at least a moderate level everywhere to do well in the sport of MMA. A style is how someone approaches building their individual skill set and a martial art would be the building block or foundation for building their style.
But beside MMA, what styles/arts/sports are teaching you ground and pound, ground and pound defense, doing submission while you opponent is trying to GnP you, feinting the strike while you are going for the throwdown and other such combined concepts that are used in MMA regularly?
Nice video Adam Kenpo
I feel it has now become a style to some extent developed around the rules of MMA
What if there is a belt system around mma such as a Jackson MMA
Even Greg Jackson has outside people that specialize. What Greg Jackson did during his day that made him special was the ability to dissect an opponent for one of his fighters.
I like to think of it as rulesets rather than styles. MMA is a ruleset, as is BJJ, as is wrestling or Judo. Rules define what techniques you study, train, and utilize.
I've been looking for the best martial art but everyone says something different which means there is no best I discovered that you don't need style you develop the fundamentals and fight the way you feel comfortable that's how you become the best you don't use just karate or just bjj or kickbox you learn the fundamentals of everything and hone your skills to the limits
DANGIT
Wow you must hate me