It was funny at around the 15 minute mark seeing the same thing happen to Dewey that happened to us when we started talking about it. We were like no... no... no... wait... what?
@@SenseiSeth Dewey made a good distinction. Styles = a set of techniques and practices - i.e. you can't do a double leg or G&P in TKD. MMA = rule based with evolution with a little bit of 'fighting styles make fights' . Here MMA styles means 'game plan' not limits due to tradition like styles and TMA is.
@@edrichlouw1790 It's more than that. If I tried to do a takedown in a TKD dojo with mats, even though that might be in their one-step self-defense series, they'd not only stop me they'd also be angry. If I tried to grab and hit in a TKD dojo, they'd stop the fight despite that not being a violation of any specific rule (besides, arbitrarily 'don't grab'). Even faking a leg kick (roundhouse to the knee) without contact is heavily frowned upon. You must use the techniques within the style (in general) and not something from outside it. You would not use an Aikido throw in a Traditional Karate sparring session, even though they teach falling, and teach wrist locks. It's because the Instructors are guarding their 'rice bowl', as it were. They do not want people to think outside the box even if it's mostly benign. (in my experience)
pretty sure ramsey dewey would kick your ass bud..... just saying but ur not allowed to bring ur metal whip and pepper spray but ahahaha. dont test him.
Yes!!! Go enjoy tae kwon do...learn and if along the way you want go learn something else lol...its amazing how some idiots always say "MMA is better"...some people dont want to learn sport MMA...I guarantee you that if you spend enough time training TKD, that you will eventually adopt other styles to enhance your skills, ie muay thai, karate, some sort of graplling...and bam...guess what you know MMA...lol...enjoy the journey.
Wow, I love these talks. My favorite martial arts you tubers coming together! Since I’ve started instructing, you both have been so inspirational to me. This is a tricky subject. I would say that mma is not a style in itself, however I would say that when training for mma every person develops their own style. As far as I’ve known Bruce Lee would teach people to fight the best way that works for the individual he was training. I see mma forcing the person to do the same thing. You’ll no long be a traditional martial artist, but you will develop your own personal style that fits you personally. Any rules in a sport will change how someone fights, but that won’t change that you’ll have to know how to fight in each zone of distance as best as YOU can. If you train in a technique that you can’t use well then it’s useless and you need to throw it out of YOUR style. Thank you both for your time and knowledge🥋
Well, the ruleset results in everyone being an Jack of all trades. That being said it's not a style, in MMA you're free to have any style you want. This can be a more boxing heavy style, a karate style like Wonderboy, a more Muay Thai style, a jiu-jitsu style in which you take someone down and submit him, or a wrestling style with a lot of ground and pound.
@@SenseiSeth Well maybe, but I think people will always have a certain style, because if 2 people train exactly the same from the same age in MMA, they will always naturally lean towards techniques and a fighting style that fits their character and their body types. So even then they will always have different styles in my opinion.
@@SenseiSeth For sure the styles will become closer and closer, but like I said people will always have certain characteristics and they will always favor certain techniques more than others. Some may naturally be better grapplers than strikers or the other way around.
Vincent MMA Life that’s a good point, but you’ll notice that all top MMA fighters are starting to look more and more alike, build wise.. the best characteristics will show and those will be the normal!
Referring to the brief chat about jiu-jitsu rules, I would argue that it is less important that we find some perfect ruleset than to have a multiplicity of rulesets (including competing in other sports) , so that people have a greater tendency to learn grappling in general and adapt to whatever they're doing at the time, rather than learning the most efficient things for one ruleset.
Bruce was the grandfather of MMA. Its a principal so in theory its the same as Jeet Kun-Do. In short: in with the useful and out with the useless. Use what works for you and throw away the rest that doesnt apply.
That's very true. Every mma fighter is different because their style is based on not only what they have trained and learned but what they have excelled in. Take Nate Diaz for example, when boxing at range you can see he is good at works with his own style but he excels at the inside dirty boxing at a close distance
@@josephperkins4080 he didnt popularize it and bring it into modern society like Lee did. He was the founder, the voice who brought the concept to life was Bruce. He made a huge influence on so many people and made the north american culture rise into martial arts and make it mainstream. Before Bruce, it was small groups of people who were influenced by EWBW. I mean, its also like someone asking “who was the grandfather of metal music” and if Black Sabbath wasn’t, it was some obscure band no one ever heard of, who actually created the sound
@@Thestrikeronin Bruce Lee is a fucking caricature. He never even really fought. It doesnt matter that stupid americans fell for his crap. No one else cares about that baffoon
I would argue that style is seperated from sport/ruleset. So mma is a sport/ruleset in which you compete with the skills you have acquired through your training style(s). Like if you just had a sport called ball in goal - people from different ball styles (soccer, tennis, rugby, etc.) could compete to be the best to get ball in goal.
@@SenseiSethperhaps mma is the umbrella for all Styles - but it's funny, just as I am typing this, and watching the video, I come to realise, that I am actually opposed the concept of Styles, as it can put limitations on you as a practicioner - it narrows the mind. So, I am full circle - everything and nothing is a style... Guess I should head to bed
@@SenseiSeth I don't think Muay Thai is a style at all because so long as you keep within the rules of Muay Thai, you can do whatever you want (which leads to different styles). I don't think someone who uses Muay Thai techniques within MMA is "doing" Muay Thai either, but rather using Muay Thai techniques and strategies. I could be wrong but that's what makes sense in my head.
@@SenseiSeth Muay Thai is simply term for full contact kickboxing these days, Seth. How many practicioners know anything about That people or the meaning of the moves etc.? Id bet, 70% of practicioners never heard of about Muay Boran or that Thai didnt use boxing techniques until fairly recently. Old school style used only long guard etc. Rules of sport dictates its form.
When it comes to rule sets and its effects on how matches are played, I think WTF (Olympic Style) Taekwondo makes for a really good case study. If you watch taekwondo matches in the 2008, 2012 and 2016 Olympics you’ll see that even though the fundamentals of taekwondo and its competition ruleset, it’s still really obvious that the style of play has changed over time. This comes from how a new electronic scoring system affected the style, as well as awarding higher points for spinning kicks to the head, causing people to go for riskier moves. Also, it used to be a running gag in the community that every time the rest of the world would get good at a particular style of play, Korea would go ahead and amend the rules in their favour lol I swear most of our training was just adjusting ourselves to the confines of the new rules every few months haha
Great conversation. You two are some of the most respectful, chill vibe and obviously subject matter experts out of all my various interests! I love mindfulness and meditation so pretty impressive to be chiller than some of them ;) love the conversation
1:38 the reason sanda hasn’t been heard of a whole lot is because when people go to their tournaments they realize this style of fighting is very effective because sidekicks don’t work
A style (if defined as a specific, set framework of fighting methods) applies to karate, boxing, bjj, etc. through a points-system derived from the style's rules. Whereas style applies to mma through rules derived from the points-system. The fighting style is based on the point-system in mma. The point-system is based on the fighting styles of the more narrow & traditional fighting styles like wrestling.
Thinking about it, I think the term style covers two different aspects in Martial Arts. A style is basically a certain way with distinctive parameters to achieve a goal. So if we look at different martial arts, they are different styles of obtaining the goal of fighting. Wrestling approaches fighting by grabbing someone and to throw them to the ground, boxing approaches fighting by exclusively using the hands to strike, etc. And in that regard I'd call MMA a style. It is a certain approach to fighting with parameters that make it unique compared to other approaches to fighting. But there are also styles within a martial art in which the martial art is part of the goal. Kyokushin for example is a style of Karate. Meaning it isn't just an approach to fighting, but also an approach to Karate. Same as Wing Tsun for example is a style of Kung Fu. And in that regard MMA isn't the style, but the goal that the style tries to obtain. It's a martial art that allows different styles to exist within it. So the answer depends on what the goal is: fighting itself or a way to emulate a style that approaches fighting in a specific way. So, MMA is a martial arts style, while for example the way Israel Adesanya and Khabib Nurmagomedov fight are different styles of MMA. Edit: You could make the argument that MMA actually is fighting and not just an approach to it, but I'd disagree, because fighting simply covers more aspects than MMA and there are approaches that aren't possible in MMA. I can't put on full body armor and bring a sword into the cage (bummer, I know), I can't invite my friends in to help me fight my opponent, I can't hide and attack from an unseen spot, etc. etc. No, I need to put on short pants, ditch my shirt, wear mouth guard, gloves and groin protection, fight for a certain amount of time with a certain amount of rules, etc. etc. So MMA has enough rules to distinct it from the term fighting itself imo.
“Greatest of Olympic sports” Pankration: Ano Pankration was the stand up. Kato Pankration was the ground game. It’s a style that included striking, wrestling and submissions.
The discussion on points really makes me think about Ganryujima - their ring out scoring is pretty interesting. I think you have to get rung out 3 times in one round to lose, but there are no submissions allowed and ground fighting is stood up after 10 or 15 seconds. It definitely favors striking but you do see sumo and other wrestling guys succeed within that ruleset by just ignoring the ground limitations and throw their opponents out.
MMA is definitely a “style”. There is 100% a difference between MMA Striking like Boxing, Kick Boxing, Muay Thai etc verses their original counter parts. Same with mma grappling due to being able to strike while grappling. Someone who’s really good at BJJ in MMA isn’t necessarily going to be good in actual BJJ, Gi or No Gi. MMA has its own striking techniques, footwork, it’s own grappling techniques.. everything any style does, MMA has. Because it’s the combination of all techniques that actually work.
@@user_____M the intruder was hopped up on some shit. It doesn’t mean MMA is not a style or it doesn’t work it would definitely work on your ass because you clearly don’t know anything.
Techniques work because its mma. Wrong. Techniques work when people practice them enough. Mma Techniques are stolen from other styles so the idea that mma "Techniques" work is ludicrous
This is an interesting discussion! MMA by it's very name is a MIX of many martial arts styles! ...But mostly what people think of when they hear the name MMA is Kickboxing and wrestling! I am so glad that there are people that are helping others see past that!
Oss Sensei Seth. The more I think about it: y’all are right. It’s not a style. It’s a sport. Not every mma fighter has the same style. Some guys are straight up wrestlers. Can’t really call their style “MMA”. Same with pure strikers. The best fighters in the sport seem to adapt their style to be more effective against a variety of opponents. Excellent insight gentlemen. I’m a big fan of both you brahjs. Keep up the great work, Oss!!!!
I like the openness of the conversations you have. You're always will to take into consideration the other guys opinion and really think about what they say
2 yrs. ago, hope I'm not too late for the discussion! lol. This was a great convo. "STYLE is a codified series of movement" is about as cut-n-dry as it gets. Let me add, it's similar to the creative arts, in that elements frequently overlap one another within the many categories and sub-categories of martial arts (sports & styles). For example, kicks: Side, Round, Front/Push, Back, Hook... punches: Jab, Cross, Uppercut, Overhand, etc... you see these and other "stikes" in more than one martial art, but often with nuance differences in execution/technique... but that doesn't change the essence of the kick/punch, it's a "stylistic" variation, like a "genre" in the world of visual art or music. Being that "MMA" is in fact a sports moniker, when describing a "mix of martial arts" I prefer the term "Cross Martial Arts" to avoid confusion with the sport and it's rules/norms. I'm a 3rd degree black belt in OLD SCHOOL Taekwondo (since I was a teenager); I'm 45 now and for 30+ I've trained without "TKD" in mind... just effective (fast/powerful/accurate) practical striking, locomotion and guards... the things that matter most. Who cares what you call it, or how exactly you position your legs and feet at start/end... although obviously some technical aspects have significance; some more than others (like front/push/snap kicks with toes pointed forward = BAD). If you train "for" a sport or "as" a sport, those specifications & limitations might not be relevant in a real fighting situation, and might deprive you of a more well-rounded experience and a gaining a better skillset as a result. That's why the idea of MMA (cross martial arts) is liberating for people like myself; ones not interested in mastering a "Style" but instead mastering "Yourself" through martial arts & fitness in general. I'm starting a channel @MAF.global (Martial Arts Fitness Global) to promote exactly that.
MMA is a combat sport using various martial arts. If the techniques are within the rules, any participant can use them. In theory, JKD is a mixed martial art, but rarely is in practice.
@@SenseiSeth from what I understand that was his whole thing - jkd was never supposed to be a style - only changing like water. I think MMA is literally what Bruce Lee was going for with jkd
Isn't MMA just a combination of styles? It's a tough question, I don't think there is one correct answer. Seth, when were you planning to go to Thailand? I'm hoping to go again soon, it'd be great to do a video together if you were up for it.
AYOOOOOO PART TWO IN THIS BIIIIH!!! I feel some styles can be MMA. Styles that incorporate many methods of operation. (I want to put extra emphasis on the word Martial too) striking, weapons etc. One could argue that ninjutsu and HEMA fall under this classification (don’t some schools of Karate train in weapons as well?) I also feel its hard to define a style, in some respects other than the culture of the school itself, and the bond the students of the art have with the name. are movements really something that should define it? (As you said many schools of boxing teach differently) 52 Blocks (also known as Jailhouse Rock) is primarily a punching based art with regional styles across America, whats keeping that from being simply a subset of boxing. how can certain martial arts have ownership of punches or kicks because at a certain point there’s only X-amount of combative movements the the body makes. Like what If someone starts utilizing an untrained move that just happens to be an exact move out of another style? is it that other style? or is it still the style they practiced? For example I’ve never been trained in judo but through years of backyard wrestling I created my own throw that just happens to be near identical to Judo’s O-Gaeshi, Is that throw part of my own personal style or does it still belong to judo? And that wouldn’t be the only technique I “invented” either (I think I’m starting to do the Ramsey Ramble™️ here... hold im going somewhere with this...and its gone) Great vid by the way looking forward to more great content!! Now im gonna get out there train! 💪🏾
I’ve seen mma gyms where they have a guy teaching mma to people in the same way people teach singular styles. It differs for fighters but none the less there are “mma” classes for the “casuals”. So in that sense mma is a style now.
This was a fascinating (and wondeful) conversation! I do have a counter argument though. A style seems more like something you can point to and say, they did x some y style. Insert whatever move and style you want. It seems like it can't be a codified set of moves, otherwise styles of martial arts could never evolve. Well, they do! There are sub styles of everything and the kind of major groupings get a "big" style grouping. I think that at this point you can look at people throwing lots of moves found in all sorts of martial arts in a recognizable MMA style. Thanks y'all!
Interesting conversation, thanks guys. I have a question for you: I used to practice a traditional kempo karate in my teenage years: it had katas, base etc, however sparring and competition was an integral part too: The competition called :chikara kurabe and consists of: 1.5 minutes sparring in boxing gloves (full contact), then 1.5 minute bare knuckle knock down with grappling, submissions allowed and finally 1.5 minutes ground fighting. With bare knuckles no hand contact was allowed to the head. Would you call it a "traditional mixed martial arts "? If yes, I would say MMA is an umbrella term to describe styles that embody all elements of fighting. Ta
I think Bruce Lee said it best, "unless you have more than 2 arms and 2 legs there is only one style of fighting...the human style". Hybrid styles like Pankration and Muay Boran have been around for centuries. Specific styles may highlight a distinct set of skills such as boxing, bjj, wrestling, etc, but those skill sets are derived from the human style of fighting (which we can refer to as MMA now). So MMA is a representation of the complete art of human fighting, while specialized styles highlight certain aspects of that complete art. If that makes any sense lol
A good point to make too is the difference between combatives and martial arts. Martial arts generally meant for winning a game against an opponent within the rules of that game which creates a tendency to favor things in order to win and combatives are just about winning period no matter what it looks like and I feel like MMA originally favored the combatives side and is now working towards a martial art
Style is not a single movement, it is the choice of combinations of movement. I can identify karate from capoiera because from an identical original stance they typically choose a different pattern of movements. i.e. If Karate is the Lindy Hop, the Capo is a Swing dance. So, MMA is not a style because within the set of rules that limit the tools I can bring (no elbows to head etc), I can bring any style/dance I choose in order to achieve a "win" (knock out, points for tds or strikes, etc) according to the points rule set. Edited after reading the comments: I agree with ScottT.
The shido In judo is a great example of how rules effect a sport. When you change how it's applied by contrast to a penalty in BJJ it changes the sport with a very similar technique set / system.
MMA is styles vs styles. Mixed bags of styles vs other mixed bags. That's what I love about it. U learn as many styles as u can to excel in MMA. It's the age old "My style's better than your style" only unltd styles r allowed & the technician using them also makes them different as in how he implements them & also what his strengths r. Cardio, chin, heart, creativity, athleticism etc. I suppose if u train at an MMA gym, it's simply a way to utilize different styles in real life or cage fight where u aren't being hindered by specific rule sets like say jiu jitsu where striking isn't allowed. Only an example, not shitting on jiu jitsu. It's very useful.
So I watched it again (still a very good talk) almost a year later and I think MMA is a... Style! An inclusive one and hybrid, but defiantly a style with sub-styles. UFC, Bellator, One FC (which is the best in my opinion), etc, are all sub-styles of MMA with their own set of rules. All the fighters in these contests have a good understanding of striking (usually via Muay Thai) and grappling (usually via BJJ); If they know anything else that could add to their game like boxing, wrestling, water polo or yoga - amazing! If not, it does not matter. BJJ and Muay Thai are also the basic standards of any MMA gym, some add full-contact karate, boxing, samba, etc. but the Thai Brazilian duo are the most effective combat sports in their field since the sport of MMA has incepted almost 30 years ago. So, saying MMA is a style hurts your soul, I guess you could say MMA is a hybrid grappling-striking combat sport based mostly on BJJ and Muay Thai. Right? but style is shorter.
The 4 hour work week story reminded me of a couple of things from high school greco roman wrestling. At the High School level they want you to continue to work for a pin and if you don't you get a staling penelty, they don't give you points for ride time, but in college they do. So what ends up happening is high schoolers try to get the pin off the first takedown which created this crazy statistic (I forget the exact number) but the majority of the time, the person who gets the first takedown wins. So often because of this teens don't get as much of a chance to explore techniques because they're trying to prefect what they learned at day one. And eventually because of this you realise that each school has it's own uniform style. For example your school might be known for it's double legs but the school a town over has some mean ankle picks apart of a single leg focused curiculem and you've never seen that move because it's your first year, even though it's a very basic low risk high reward takedown that many agree should be one of the first takedowns someone should learn for sport grappling.
I wouldn’t say it’s a style as there’s too much range in how an MMA can fight, if you see 10 karate fighters in something like wkf, their style will be the mostly the same. However, mma fighters can be strikers, grapplers, wrestlers etc. It’s like thinking of a species, if there is too much of a difference then the individuals (in this case the mma fighters) are not part is the species in question (mma).
The definition of Style is a manner or way of doing something - MMA is a sport with a definite manner or way of doing things based on a few martial styles including grappling and submissions and striking - the rules push MMA into a style whether you like it or not - the majority of MMA gyms focus on grappling submission, boxing, Muay Thai or some variation of Kick Boxing - the sport has created this "style" for use in an MMA ring out of those other "styles". If the rules change the style of MMA fighting will also change to fit those rules. You could categorize MMA gyms as teaching different flavors of MMA akin to how Boxing gyms teach different flavors of boxing - Philadelphia and New York Boxing are examples of the variations of boxing styles but both are boxing - Im sure you will find variations in MMA depending on the gym or trainers you work with.
I would say the limiting factor in MMA are what techniques have a high percentage of working, which in turn HAS created a style of MMA. Nobodies swinging tai Kwon do kicks when they're pressed against a cage. Cage fighting looks similar in most matches because it's now a style
To clarify, throwing an opponent off of the Lei Tai awards points (3 I think), however, if you throw the opponent off of the Lei Tai 3 times in a single round, then you win. You can also win by decision, knockout, or TKO. I haven't ever heard of a ten time rule, even for Sanshou, let alone Lei Tai. Another thing to note is that the platform is very big, probably a little more than a boxing ring and a half in size. Teeping someone consecutively that many times and them not moving to the side or countering the kick, or taking you down a single time is very unlikely, especially since Lei Tai and Sanda people tend to be very good at catching kicks, and Lei Tai people in particular have pretty good ring awareness. In fact, if you watch the fights, you'll actually notice that it's pretty rare for someone to go off the platform even a single time, let alone three times in a single round. If you want to read about the rules for Lei Tai and Sanshou, the USKSF website gives a lot of information about that.
MMA has kinda turned into it's own style. Most MMA gyms you go to teach the same thing. You'll probably learn a little bit of Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ. It's basically it's own fighting style now.
Hey Seth, loved the video , is there any chance you could make a video on the styles you’d recommend for starting MMA like the 3 or so essential styles you need to succee
You can say that mma is more like a concept. How you chose to integrate and execute techniques is your style. Style can either be a predetermined set of moves, a rule set within that "art" if you would, or the way it's predominantly or contemporarily executed within an organization or any group on an individual level.
It is a style but it’ll depend on the fighter. Say I had my son sign up to a MMA class at 6 years old, I let him learn everything until he’s 18 that’s allowed in the western cage rules. He is only allowed to go to “mma” gyms. Wouldn’t he be considered a mma style fighter? Or would we break down what we learn and instead say we trained him in Boxing, Jujitsu, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and Kickboxing etc? Even amongst pros, They are usually categorized as - - - specialists. It’s already assumed people will mix things up. We also know that you will miss out on many “in style rules” and cultures that are distinct to their respective gyms. My hypothetical son can say he trained in boxing, Muay Thai etc, But he missed out on the big city urban boxing culture, the nak Muay culture, the wai kru, the belts in BJJ, etc.
I think in One Muay Thai or kick boxing, they would fight with MMA gloves and in an MMA octagon. With the change in gloves alone, the fighters started to adapt their guard since MMA gloves are considerably smaller than boxing gloves. The fight looks almost similar to an MMA match with no ground grappling
My thinking is, for example in tennis there are certain techniques you get taught as correct or optimal but it has nothing to do with scoring. Maybe if someone uses an incorrect technique they will develop some issues with the joints eventually but if they win they win.
I like MMA as a rule set for everybody who wishes to compete in a free fighting..same as K-1 Kickboxing is for everyone who wants to compete in striking (muay thai, Karate, Sanda, etc.) and Submission Grappling is for grapplers (BJJ, catch wrestling, Judo, etc.)
The answer is unimportant. Martial arts is and art. Freely and honestly express yourself however you like. With or without a label or style or rule set. Work hard, respect each other and enjoy the journey.
MMA is a sport and certainly not an art. There's rules... no eye strikes, no downward elbows, no biting, rounds with rests in between. One only fights one other person, normally the same size and "skill."
I read in a book "The Fighter's Mind" (I think) that there is a phrase "Rules make styles but styles make fights." If that's the case, wouldn't the MMA ruleset of "UFC" make it a style unto itself? (As well as giving credence to the old misclamenture "You fight UFC bro?")?
I think a lot of sport related daytrippers in the general public tend to get confused by the distinction between MMA (the overarching term for the sport), and BJJ (a specific style currently enjoying the most dominance in said sport). It's similar to the sort of confusion some people have distinguishing between say, Bandages (a general term for a topical wound dressing) and Bandaids (a specific brand name of household bandages) in casual speech. It's not just semantics, but people blur the distinction anyway, because we humans have an innate general tendency towards laziness and imprecision when we communicate - especially online. I'll stop there, because anytime I start blathering about philology or epistemology, I can FEEL the dislike heating up from all sides ... and I forgot my sunscreen today. 🤪
A style implies that there is a shared methodology of training or technique and tradition. MMA isn’t a style YET, but one day it may develop into one. That’s just my view on it but I think that after a few more decades there will be a base MMA style that just covers the generalizations of the basics of every aspect of MMA.
a martial arts style forms by default in general and specifically when a rule set forms to define a certain style of fighting for the practitioner or grp of practitioners being taught to replicate it. the martial arts rule set insures the individual practitioner is able to develop a style of practice that enables them to achieve their goals through a specific method/rule set/style, be they achieving a certain skill set, maintaining a certain skill set etc etc, much like a person going to the gym wants to achieve a certain fitness or look and then maintain it, if they wish to do so efficiently they will develop or adopt and maintain a certain rule set and style of exercise regime to do so. when someone is defined as a MMA fighter, this can mean they fight people or diferent styles or it could mean their generalized "style" of fighting and rule set being mixed, that they adopt rule sets and styles for fighting from other generalized and specific taught styles or martial arts and continue to maintain these skill sets to some degree or in part according to their original sources rule set, so they remain identifiable and in practice a part of a separate martial arts style, but it does not define which styles they adopt from, how much, how many etc etc, as such how they actually practice/express their "style" of MMA and even if they are labeled a MMA practitioner, they also may not be one. as a MMA practitioner may only appear as one because their fighting style "appears" to borrow from other well known styles, but yet does not adopt nor follow any of their rule sets, so despite appearing as such they are infact practicing their own martial arts style and are not practicing a MMA style. some people who think they are not a MMA practitioner and only practice 1 style are actually MMA practitioners who practice more then 1 style, for example when 1 person fights according to a diferent rule set in the ring, from out of the ring, trains diferently for in the ring and for out of the ring, they have in effect become a MMA practitioner as they adopt and practice 2 diferent martial arts rule sets. this is common occurrence for many martial arts styles when their practitioners seek to compete, as traditional rules vs modern sports rules can often vary, with modern rule sets putting safety, legality and points over more traditional, realistic and typically illegal competition rules of the past, were almost anything was allowed if it was practiced within that style, so even weapons were permitted. etc etc
Styles are made by their limitations. There is a real disadvantage in “training in mma” because the lack of limitations don’t allow you to increase a particular skill. A karate guy might never learn how to kick if he has to be constantly worried about being tackled. A boxer might never learn boxing distances if he’s constantly worried about being kicked while out of range of a taller mans jab. Having an excellent ability to box or kick would not be a disadvantage, but it is difficult to train in any direction if you have no starting points. Limitations really allow a style to develop and increase a certain skill elaborately. You could argue that elaborate and nuanced motions are ineffective in “real” combat but I think that the nuance of martial arts is the real tool that they offer.
So how is BJJ a discrete style from wrestling or Judo or Sambo? The only real difference between the four is what moves are legal, what uniforms you wear and what gets points. If you saw a match of any of those without uniforms or a rule framework, you wouldn't be able to tell one from the other.
MMA is less a style, more a combination of very useful techniques from many styles to match a specific ruleset. I like to think of it as being a student, and each martial art is a course series with an overarching syllabus. MMA simply adheres to more than one syllabus.
To my understanding mixed martial arts is just knowing and applying different styles in your arsenal. It's more a system that varies by person based on their strengths and weaknesses. Competition MMA and self defense MMA are totally different applications of the same idea.
I think MMA is the Contextual Catalyst for Martial arts. In the same way warfare dictated martial arts in the past. Look at medieval sword fighting compared to renaissance fencing. Essentially people changed from orthodox stance (shield arm and weapon arm) to a south paw stance (weapon arm forward). Basically MMA is not a style but a context to allow martial arts to live on a bit more freely.
I would like to address one of Ramsey deweys comments the ibjjf isn't really the most popular rule set unfortunately it has a lot of high-level competitors and I believe that's why a lot of people do it a lot of people do not really care for the ibjjf rule sets
The term "style" is used for recognition of the set of training and movements it has. But in MMA the limitations are very small, calling its huge variety of movements and training principle as a "style" is no longer helpful in defining it. I think it should be think in the way that, is calling MMA style helpful in helping others what you trained and specialized in? I personally do not think so, so I won't call MMA a style of martial arts.
the way i see it mma is a handyman it's a sport but not a style it's a mixture of different styles. now people want to see it as a style but realty is it isn't a style to me has a tradition behind it it's own set of rules and code of conduct. i have trained in tae kwon do, boxing and currently muay thai. in my opinion ufc was a lot more entertaining when it was style vs style seeing guys go at it.
Would it be more accurate to say it’s not a style YET? MMA is basically cross training between different styles, usually grappling and striking, but with gyms teaching this cross training routine, you can tell by the movement that someone is cross trained in striking and grappling most times because the hybrid stance they tend to take. Hands up like stringing but slightly bent for grappling also. At least that’s what I see.
If you look at MMA and street fights even the amateur MMA practitioner out classes most boxers or untrained and even most traditional martial artists, and may not be specifically a style but gets used as one. They'd do better if they even edited MMA a bit. The takedowns, how you use the clinch, headbutts, clothing, how and where you punch, etc. Also the changing rules in a street fight, commonly known as "local and National laws". Potential weapons, obviously that and potentially having multiple combatants.
Im currently being taught one on one by my uncle which has owned a dojo before. Should i stick with him or train with an actual dojo (I love practicing karate with him i just want to be the best i can be
I feel a little silly trying to quibble w/ Ramsey Dewey, Icy Mike, and Sensi Seth (though the latter seems to be more agnostic on the point than the aforementioned)---but I'm a silly man! I wonder if that the debate actually concerns the differences between combat sports and traditional martial arts; and the ambivalence ppl feel regarding the 'other' side of the fence. It's difficult to suffer much confusion discerning between a mauy thai match, a wrestling match, or a mma fight. It's also equally as clear that ppl doing chi-sao, competing in karate point-fighting, or a forms competition are also equally distinct from each other--while each conforming to a particular rule set. Having said all this, i do acknowledge the general openness of MMA--particularly as contrasted with the 'rules' doing chi-sao---makes it seem counter-intuitive, even disrespectful, to declare it a style. Perhaps it's best thought as the style of no-style (bruce lee on JKD i think?). In any event, I feel a bit less certain about my position but can't get past the idea that we can easily discern between mma, judo, or tang so do karate.
So? Is MMA a style or not?
Didnt seen the video yet but i say nah 😅
Haha let me know what you think after you’re done!!
MMA is not a style. MMA fighters who have specific main arts get praised because of their specific main arts.
How long until that’s not true, John?
Its a sport not a style
What if MMA was the friends we found along the way?
**Proceeds to get side-kicked in the balls**
This discussion is exactly why the Gracies only wanted fights with no judges, no time limits, and win by only KO, TKO, or submission.
Bam
Sounds more like vale tudo
It was funny at around the 15 minute mark seeing the same thing happen to Dewey that happened to us when we started talking about it. We were like no... no... no... wait... what?
Yea I think we brought it back though... sorta
@@SenseiSeth Dewey made a good distinction. Styles = a set of techniques and practices - i.e. you can't do a double leg or G&P in TKD. MMA = rule based with evolution with a little bit of 'fighting styles make fights' . Here MMA styles means 'game plan' not limits due to tradition like styles and TMA is.
Badge Johnson but that’s still just because of the rule set.
@@edrichlouw1790 It's more than that. If I tried to do a takedown in a TKD dojo with mats, even though that might be in their one-step self-defense series, they'd not only stop me they'd also be angry. If I tried to grab and hit in a TKD dojo, they'd stop the fight despite that not being a violation of any specific rule (besides, arbitrarily 'don't grab'). Even faking a leg kick (roundhouse to the knee) without contact is heavily frowned upon. You must use the techniques within the style (in general) and not something from outside it. You would not use an Aikido throw in a Traditional Karate sparring session, even though they teach falling, and teach wrist locks. It's because the Instructors are guarding their 'rice bowl', as it were. They do not want people to think outside the box even if it's mostly benign. (in my experience)
pretty sure ramsey dewey would kick your ass bud..... just saying but ur not allowed to bring ur metal whip and pepper spray but ahahaha. dont test him.
The answer is Ramsey Dewey is MMA. Probably
Haha yes, that’s definitely the answer
this is pretty😂😂
This answer is 100% legit in 99.995% non-Street scenarios.
Mexican martial art 😁😁😁
I'm so sick of people telling me "MMA is better" or "you should learn MMA instead." Just let me learn taekwondo in peace
Your taekwondo could be part of your mma. If you learn other styles youre a mixed martial artist
@@darrellwilliams1714 I started learning Muay Thai and BJJ so I guess I can call myself a mixed martial artist.
@@internetexplorer7143 you sure can
Yes!!! Go enjoy tae kwon do...learn and if along the way you want go learn something else lol...its amazing how some idiots always say "MMA is better"...some people dont want to learn sport MMA...I guarantee you that if you spend enough time training TKD, that you will eventually adopt other styles to enhance your skills, ie muay thai, karate, some sort of graplling...and bam...guess what you know MMA...lol...enjoy the journey.
@@ssjrose9641 Ever since I posted that comment, I’ve gotten into BJJ, Muay Thai, and Kali
The civilized debate still exists. Professional fighters prove it all the time.
What?
MORE RAMSEY :D It's the best when my fav youtubers collab!
This is the last one for a couple weeks, but we’ll totally do this again!!
Wow, I love these talks. My favorite martial arts you tubers coming together! Since I’ve started instructing, you both have been so inspirational to me. This is a tricky subject. I would say that mma is not a style in itself, however I would say that when training for mma every person develops their own style. As far as I’ve known Bruce Lee would teach people to fight the best way that works for the individual he was training. I see mma forcing the person to do the same thing. You’ll no long be a traditional martial artist, but you will develop your own personal style that fits you personally. Any rules in a sport will change how someone fights, but that won’t change that you’ll have to know how to fight in each zone of distance as best as YOU can. If you train in a technique that you can’t use well then it’s useless and you need to throw it out of YOUR style. Thank you both for your time and knowledge🥋
Excellent. Another collab to break the internet. Nice work.
Hope you enjoyed it 🙏
Been bugging me who Ramsey sounds like but I just realised that it is Ron Swanson. Not an insult.
Well, the ruleset results in everyone being an Jack of all trades. That being said it's not a style, in MMA you're free to have any style you want. This can be a more boxing heavy style, a karate style like Wonderboy, a more Muay Thai style, a jiu-jitsu style in which you take someone down and submit him, or a wrestling style with a lot of ground and pound.
I think I would agree with you there! Do you think it may be a style some day?
@@SenseiSeth Well maybe, but I think people will always have a certain style, because if 2 people train exactly the same from the same age in MMA, they will always naturally lean towards techniques and a fighting style that fits their character and their body types. So even then they will always have different styles in my opinion.
Vincent MMA Life I think it’ll styles will become much more defined and MMA WILL become its own style... eventually lol
@@SenseiSeth For sure the styles will become closer and closer, but like I said people will always have certain characteristics and they will always favor certain techniques more than others. Some may naturally be better grapplers than strikers or the other way around.
Vincent MMA Life that’s a good point, but you’ll notice that all top MMA fighters are starting to look more and more alike, build wise.. the best characteristics will show and those will be the normal!
You and Mike made me get into fighting and I love it now, thanks man, great video.
Ah dude that’s so cool to hear!!
Referring to the brief chat about jiu-jitsu rules, I would argue that it is less important that we find some perfect ruleset than to have a multiplicity of rulesets (including competing in other sports) , so that people have a greater tendency to learn grappling in general and adapt to whatever they're doing at the time, rather than learning the most efficient things for one ruleset.
I think MMA is like Jeet Kune Do. Everybody have his own MMA. Like: „I show you my MMA“. 😂😂😂
Bruce was the grandfather of MMA. Its a principal so in theory its the same as Jeet Kun-Do.
In short: in with the useful and out with the useless. Use what works for you and throw away the rest that doesnt apply.
That's very true. Every mma fighter is different because their style is based on not only what they have trained and learned but what they have excelled in. Take Nate Diaz for example, when boxing at range you can see he is good at works with his own style but he excels at the inside dirty boxing at a close distance
@@Thestrikeronin 😆 Sorry it is not lee that is the grandfather of MMA.William Edward Barton-Wright is the Grandfather of MMA
@@josephperkins4080 he didnt popularize it and bring it into modern society like Lee did. He was the founder, the voice who brought the concept to life was Bruce. He made a huge influence on so many people and made the north american culture rise into martial arts and make it mainstream. Before Bruce, it was small groups of people who were influenced by EWBW. I mean, its also like someone asking “who was the grandfather of metal music” and if Black Sabbath wasn’t, it was some obscure band no one ever heard of, who actually created the sound
@@Thestrikeronin Bruce Lee is a fucking caricature. He never even really fought. It doesnt matter that stupid americans fell for his crap. No one else cares about that baffoon
I would argue that style is seperated from sport/ruleset.
So mma is a sport/ruleset in which you compete with the skills you have acquired through your training style(s).
Like if you just had a sport called ball in goal - people from different ball styles (soccer, tennis, rugby, etc.) could compete to be the best to get ball in goal.
But Muay Thai is a sport.. does that make it less of a style?
@@SenseiSethperhaps mma is the umbrella for all Styles - but it's funny, just as I am typing this, and watching the video, I come to realise, that I am actually opposed the concept of Styles, as it can put limitations on you as a practicioner - it narrows the mind.
So, I am full circle - everything and nothing is a style...
Guess I should head to bed
@@jabrolsen we got Bruce Lee out here
@@SenseiSeth I don't think Muay Thai is a style at all because so long as you keep within the rules of Muay Thai, you can do whatever you want (which leads to different styles). I don't think someone who uses Muay Thai techniques within MMA is "doing" Muay Thai either, but rather using Muay Thai techniques and strategies. I could be wrong but that's what makes sense in my head.
@@SenseiSeth Muay Thai is simply term for full contact kickboxing these days, Seth. How many practicioners know anything about That people or the meaning of the moves etc.?
Id bet, 70% of practicioners never heard of about Muay Boran or that Thai didnt use boxing techniques until fairly recently. Old school style used only long guard etc.
Rules of sport dictates its form.
When it comes to rule sets and its effects on how matches are played, I think WTF (Olympic Style) Taekwondo makes for a really good case study. If you watch taekwondo matches in the 2008, 2012 and 2016 Olympics you’ll see that even though the fundamentals of taekwondo and its competition ruleset, it’s still really obvious that the style of play has changed over time. This comes from how a new electronic scoring system affected the style, as well as awarding higher points for spinning kicks to the head, causing people to go for riskier moves. Also, it used to be a running gag in the community that every time the rest of the world would get good at a particular style of play, Korea would go ahead and amend the rules in their favour lol I swear most of our training was just adjusting ourselves to the confines of the new rules every few months haha
Great conversation. You two are some of the most respectful, chill vibe and obviously subject matter experts out of all my various interests! I love mindfulness and meditation so pretty impressive to be chiller than some of them ;) love the conversation
1:38 the reason sanda hasn’t been heard of a whole lot is because when people go to their tournaments they realize this style of fighting is very effective because sidekicks don’t work
A style (if defined as a specific, set framework of fighting methods) applies to karate, boxing, bjj, etc. through a points-system derived from the style's rules. Whereas style applies to mma through rules derived from the points-system. The fighting style is based on the point-system in mma. The point-system is based on the fighting styles of the more narrow & traditional fighting styles like wrestling.
Through a combination of science fiction and martial arts, mma will turn into matrix like fights in 100 years
Haha HOW SICK would that be??
@@SenseiSeth all other martial arts would die out cause everyone wants to be a jedi or super hero
That’s what I would sign up for 10000%
13:46 asking Ramsey Dewey to keep it simple!!!!!! When pigs fly mate
😂😂😂
The way ramsay defined style vs combat sport made lots of sense and made it easier to discern. Nicely done.
Hey a collab didn't know I wanted until I saw it!
We’ve got two other videos I posted the other day too! Hope you like them 🙏🙏
I think that MMA is a rule set, with types of it (depending of how is "played") and with fighters with their on style.
Re- Tim Ferriss kickboxing it was actually only 3 times out of the ring! Pretty crazy. Makes sense how he could game it. Great video.
Thank you!!
Styles = every animal and their subspecies.
MMA = The whole zoo.
I specialise in polar bear, wombat and warthog
Exactly
MMA doesn't have weapons, no group figthing, alternating terrain, clothing based techniques and dirty figthing.
Guess zoos can't handle every animal.
@@blackpowderkun Touché
Bra so smart well said
Thinking about it, I think the term style covers two different aspects in Martial Arts. A style is basically a certain way with distinctive parameters to achieve a goal. So if we look at different martial arts, they are different styles of obtaining the goal of fighting. Wrestling approaches fighting by grabbing someone and to throw them to the ground, boxing approaches fighting by exclusively using the hands to strike, etc. And in that regard I'd call MMA a style. It is a certain approach to fighting with parameters that make it unique compared to other approaches to fighting. But there are also styles within a martial art in which the martial art is part of the goal. Kyokushin for example is a style of Karate. Meaning it isn't just an approach to fighting, but also an approach to Karate. Same as Wing Tsun for example is a style of Kung Fu. And in that regard MMA isn't the style, but the goal that the style tries to obtain. It's a martial art that allows different styles to exist within it. So the answer depends on what the goal is: fighting itself or a way to emulate a style that approaches fighting in a specific way. So, MMA is a martial arts style, while for example the way Israel Adesanya and Khabib Nurmagomedov fight are different styles of MMA.
Edit: You could make the argument that MMA actually is fighting and not just an approach to it, but I'd disagree, because fighting simply covers more aspects than MMA and there are approaches that aren't possible in MMA. I can't put on full body armor and bring a sword into the cage (bummer, I know), I can't invite my friends in to help me fight my opponent, I can't hide and attack from an unseen spot, etc. etc. No, I need to put on short pants, ditch my shirt, wear mouth guard, gloves and groin protection, fight for a certain amount of time with a certain amount of rules, etc. etc. So MMA has enough rules to distinct it from the term fighting itself imo.
“Greatest of Olympic sports” Pankration:
Ano Pankration was the stand up.
Kato Pankration was the ground game.
It’s a style that included striking, wrestling and submissions.
The discussion on points really makes me think about Ganryujima - their ring out scoring is pretty interesting. I think you have to get rung out 3 times in one round to lose, but there are no submissions allowed and ground fighting is stood up after 10 or 15 seconds. It definitely favors striking but you do see sumo and other wrestling guys succeed within that ruleset by just ignoring the ground limitations and throw their opponents out.
MMA is definitely a “style”. There is 100% a difference between MMA Striking like Boxing, Kick Boxing, Muay Thai etc verses their original counter parts. Same with mma grappling due to being able to strike while grappling. Someone who’s really good at BJJ in MMA isn’t necessarily going to be good in actual BJJ, Gi or No Gi. MMA has its own striking techniques, footwork, it’s own grappling techniques.. everything any style does, MMA has. Because it’s the combination of all techniques that actually work.
They don't work, some MMA tighter couldn't do shit against a intruder in his house. MMA and BJ are semi-useless.
@@user_____M the intruder was hopped up on some shit. It doesn’t mean MMA is not a style or it doesn’t work it would definitely work on your ass because you clearly don’t know anything.
Techniques work because its mma. Wrong. Techniques work when people practice them enough. Mma Techniques are stolen from other styles so the idea that mma "Techniques" work is ludicrous
@@dreamreapersofficialyoutub6731BJJ is stolen from judo, sambo is stolen from judo & karate, kickboxing is stolen from karate & boxing.
This is an interesting discussion!
MMA by it's very name is a MIX of many martial arts styles!
...But mostly what people think of when they hear the name MMA is Kickboxing and wrestling!
I am so glad that there are people that are helping others see past that!
aaaay! Ramsey's shoutout to my style! Savate, feels good man.
This is for me the best collab I ever seen
Oss Sensei Seth. The more I think about it: y’all are right. It’s not a style. It’s a sport. Not every mma fighter has the same style. Some guys are straight up wrestlers. Can’t really call their style “MMA”. Same with pure strikers. The best fighters in the sport seem to adapt their style to be more effective against a variety of opponents. Excellent insight gentlemen. I’m a big fan of both you brahjs. Keep up the great work, Oss!!!!
I like the openness of the conversations you have. You're always will to take into consideration the other guys opinion and really think about what they say
2 yrs. ago, hope I'm not too late for the discussion! lol. This was a great convo. "STYLE is a codified series of movement" is about as cut-n-dry as it gets. Let me add, it's similar to the creative arts, in that elements frequently overlap one another within the many categories and sub-categories of martial arts (sports & styles). For example, kicks: Side, Round, Front/Push, Back, Hook... punches: Jab, Cross, Uppercut, Overhand, etc... you see these and other "stikes" in more than one martial art, but often with nuance differences in execution/technique... but that doesn't change the essence of the kick/punch, it's a "stylistic" variation, like a "genre" in the world of visual art or music. Being that "MMA" is in fact a sports moniker, when describing a "mix of martial arts" I prefer the term "Cross Martial Arts" to avoid confusion with the sport and it's rules/norms. I'm a 3rd degree black belt in OLD SCHOOL Taekwondo (since I was a teenager); I'm 45 now and for 30+ I've trained without "TKD" in mind... just effective (fast/powerful/accurate) practical striking, locomotion and guards... the things that matter most. Who cares what you call it, or how exactly you position your legs and feet at start/end... although obviously some technical aspects have significance; some more than others (like front/push/snap kicks with toes pointed forward = BAD). If you train "for" a sport or "as" a sport, those specifications & limitations might not be relevant in a real fighting situation, and might deprive you of a more well-rounded experience and a gaining a better skillset as a result. That's why the idea of MMA (cross martial arts) is liberating for people like myself; ones not interested in mastering a "Style" but instead mastering "Yourself" through martial arts & fitness in general. I'm starting a channel @MAF.global (Martial Arts Fitness Global) to promote exactly that.
MMA is a combat sport using various martial arts. If the techniques are within the rules, any participant can use them. In theory, JKD is a mixed martial art, but rarely is in practice.
So does that make JKD not a style?
@@SenseiSeth I think Bruce would have said it is like a fence-less gate. A style-less style :-)
@@SenseiSeth from what I understand that was his whole thing - jkd was never supposed to be a style - only changing like water. I think MMA is literally what Bruce Lee was going for with jkd
Collab with both icy mike and ramsey dewey would be amazing
Isn't MMA just a combination of styles? It's a tough question, I don't think there is one correct answer.
Seth, when were you planning to go to Thailand? I'm hoping to go again soon, it'd be great to do a video together if you were up for it.
Bruce said it years ago. You need to be proficient in all ranges of combat.
AYOOOOOO PART TWO IN THIS BIIIIH!!!
I feel some styles can be MMA. Styles that incorporate many methods of operation. (I want to put extra emphasis on the word Martial too) striking, weapons etc. One could argue that ninjutsu and HEMA fall under this classification (don’t some schools of Karate train in weapons as well?)
I also feel its hard to define a style, in some respects other than the culture of the school itself, and the bond the students of the art have with the name. are movements really something that should define it? (As you said many schools of boxing teach differently) 52 Blocks (also known as Jailhouse Rock) is primarily a punching based art with regional styles across America, whats keeping that from being simply a subset of boxing. how can certain martial arts have ownership of punches or kicks because at a certain point there’s only X-amount of combative movements the the body makes. Like what If someone starts utilizing an untrained move that just happens to be an exact move out of another style? is it that other style? or is it still the style they practiced? For example I’ve never been trained in judo but through years of backyard wrestling I created my own throw that just happens to be near identical to Judo’s O-Gaeshi, Is that throw part of my own personal style or does it still belong to judo? And that wouldn’t be the only technique I “invented” either (I think I’m starting to do the Ramsey Ramble™️ here... hold im going somewhere with this...and its gone)
Great vid by the way looking forward to more great content!! Now im gonna get out there train! 💪🏾
We’ll get a flipped version of the other “matching martial arts styles” video soon! This is actually part 3 of our talk!
I’ve seen mma gyms where they have a guy teaching mma to people in the same way people teach singular styles. It differs for fighters but none the less there are “mma” classes for the “casuals”. So in that sense mma is a style now.
A style is like the way a certain person fights in mma. Like the valentina style or the khabib style
I want to have a conversation with Ramsey Dewey just to watch him mentally wander. That is RUclips gold!!
Amazing collab
This was a fascinating (and wondeful) conversation! I do have a counter argument though. A style seems more like something you can point to and say, they did x some y style. Insert whatever move and style you want. It seems like it can't be a codified set of moves, otherwise styles of martial arts could never evolve. Well, they do! There are sub styles of everything and the kind of major groupings get a "big" style grouping. I think that at this point you can look at people throwing lots of moves found in all sorts of martial arts in a recognizable MMA style. Thanks y'all!
Interesting conversation, thanks guys. I have a question for you:
I used to practice a traditional kempo karate in my teenage years: it had katas, base etc, however sparring and competition was an integral part too: The competition called :chikara kurabe and consists of: 1.5 minutes sparring in boxing gloves (full contact), then 1.5 minute bare knuckle knock down with grappling, submissions allowed and finally 1.5 minutes ground fighting. With bare knuckles no hand contact was allowed to the head. Would you call it a "traditional mixed martial arts "? If yes, I would say MMA is an umbrella term to describe styles that embody all elements of fighting. Ta
I always feel like I'm listening to a computer or robot when Ramsey talks. The voice, the cadence, the enunciation. Very pleasant sounding tho.
I think Bruce Lee said it best, "unless you have more than 2 arms and 2 legs there is only one style of fighting...the human style". Hybrid styles like Pankration and Muay Boran have been around for centuries. Specific styles may highlight a distinct set of skills such as boxing, bjj, wrestling, etc, but those skill sets are derived from the human style of fighting (which we can refer to as MMA now). So MMA is a representation of the complete art of human fighting, while specialized styles highlight certain aspects of that complete art. If that makes any sense lol
A good point to make too is the difference between combatives and martial arts. Martial arts generally meant for winning a game against an opponent within the rules of that game which creates a tendency to favor things in order to win and combatives are just about winning period no matter what it looks like and I feel like MMA originally favored the combatives side and is now working towards a martial art
I'd love you to do a poll on what martial arts your followers have done for at least a month. See who has been training what.
Style is not a single movement, it is the choice of combinations of movement. I can identify karate from capoiera because from an identical original stance they typically choose a different pattern of movements. i.e. If Karate is the Lindy Hop, the Capo is a Swing dance. So, MMA is not a style because within the set of rules that limit the tools I can bring (no elbows to head etc), I can bring any style/dance I choose in order to achieve a "win" (knock out, points for tds or strikes, etc) according to the points rule set. Edited after reading the comments: I agree with ScottT.
The shido In judo is a great example of how rules effect a sport. When you change how it's applied by contrast to a penalty in BJJ it changes the sport with a very similar technique set / system.
Ryan Hall is a perfect example for what Ramsey was talking about.
Find me another Ryan Hall in MMA.
MMA is styles vs styles. Mixed bags of styles vs other mixed bags. That's what I love about it. U learn as many styles as u can to excel in MMA.
It's the age old "My style's better than your style" only unltd styles r allowed & the technician using them also makes them different as in how he implements them & also what his strengths r. Cardio, chin, heart, creativity, athleticism etc.
I suppose if u train at an MMA gym, it's simply a way to utilize different styles in real life or cage fight where u aren't being hindered by specific rule sets like say jiu jitsu where striking isn't allowed. Only an example, not shitting on jiu jitsu. It's very useful.
So I watched it again (still a very good talk) almost a year later and I think MMA is a... Style! An inclusive one and hybrid, but defiantly a style with sub-styles. UFC, Bellator, One FC (which is the best in my opinion), etc, are all sub-styles of MMA with their own set of rules. All the fighters in these contests have a good understanding of striking (usually via Muay Thai) and grappling (usually via BJJ); If they know anything else that could add to their game like boxing, wrestling, water polo or yoga - amazing! If not, it does not matter.
BJJ and Muay Thai are also the basic standards of any MMA gym, some add full-contact karate, boxing, samba, etc. but the Thai Brazilian duo are the most effective combat sports in their field since the sport of MMA has incepted almost 30 years ago.
So, saying MMA is a style hurts your soul, I guess you could say MMA is a hybrid grappling-striking combat sport based mostly on BJJ and Muay Thai. Right? but style is shorter.
The 4 hour work week story reminded me of a couple of things from high school greco roman wrestling. At the High School level they want you to continue to work for a pin and if you don't you get a staling penelty, they don't give you points for ride time, but in college they do. So what ends up happening is high schoolers try to get the pin off the first takedown which created this crazy statistic (I forget the exact number) but the majority of the time, the person who gets the first takedown wins. So often because of this teens don't get as much of a chance to explore techniques because they're trying to prefect what they learned at day one. And eventually because of this you realise that each school has it's own uniform style. For example your school might be known for it's double legs but the school a town over has some mean ankle picks apart of a single leg focused curiculem and you've never seen that move because it's your first year, even though it's a very basic low risk high reward takedown that many agree should be one of the first takedowns someone should learn for sport grappling.
I follow you both, I wonder why it took so long for me to see this
I wouldn’t say it’s a style as there’s too much range in how an MMA can fight, if you see 10 karate fighters in something like wkf, their style will be the mostly the same. However, mma fighters can be strikers, grapplers, wrestlers etc. It’s like thinking of a species, if there is too much of a difference then the individuals (in this case the mma fighters) are not part is the species in question (mma).
Ramsey is the 🐐 martial arts RUclipsr.
I totally get this! MMA is a framework of emerical testing and application.
Great, great breakdown
The definition of Style is a manner or way of doing something - MMA is a sport with a definite manner or way of doing things based on a few martial styles including grappling and submissions and striking - the rules push MMA into a style whether you like it or not - the majority of MMA gyms focus on grappling submission, boxing, Muay Thai or some variation of Kick Boxing - the sport has created this "style" for use in an MMA ring out of those other "styles". If the rules change the style of MMA fighting will also change to fit those rules. You could categorize MMA gyms as teaching different flavors of MMA akin to how Boxing gyms teach different flavors of boxing - Philadelphia and New York Boxing are examples of the variations of boxing styles but both are boxing - Im sure you will find variations in MMA depending on the gym or trainers you work with.
I would say the limiting factor in MMA are what techniques have a high percentage of working, which in turn HAS created a style of MMA. Nobodies swinging tai Kwon do kicks when they're pressed against a cage. Cage fighting looks similar in most matches because it's now a style
To clarify, throwing an opponent off of the Lei Tai awards points (3 I think), however, if you throw the opponent off of the Lei Tai 3 times in a single round, then you win. You can also win by decision, knockout, or TKO. I haven't ever heard of a ten time rule, even for Sanshou, let alone Lei Tai. Another thing to note is that the platform is very big, probably a little more than a boxing ring and a half in size. Teeping someone consecutively that many times and them not moving to the side or countering the kick, or taking you down a single time is very unlikely, especially since Lei Tai and Sanda people tend to be very good at catching kicks, and Lei Tai people in particular have pretty good ring awareness. In fact, if you watch the fights, you'll actually notice that it's pretty rare for someone to go off the platform even a single time, let alone three times in a single round. If you want to read about the rules for Lei Tai and Sanshou, the USKSF website gives a lot of information about that.
MMA has kinda turned into it's own style. Most MMA gyms you go to teach the same thing. You'll probably learn a little bit of Boxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and BJJ. It's basically it's own fighting style now.
no it's not, it's a mix of styles you even implied it
@@user-fk8tr5ev8q Nope
Hey Seth, loved the video , is there any chance you could make a video on the styles you’d recommend for starting MMA like the 3 or so essential styles you need to succee
You can say that mma is more like a concept. How you chose to integrate and execute techniques is your style. Style can either be a predetermined set of moves, a rule set within that "art" if you would, or the way it's predominantly or contemporarily executed within an organization or any group on an individual level.
That was pretty good. Does either of you guys have a podcast
It is a style but it’ll depend on the fighter.
Say I had my son sign up to a MMA class at 6 years old, I let him learn everything until he’s 18 that’s allowed in the western cage rules. He is only allowed to go to “mma” gyms.
Wouldn’t he be considered a mma style fighter? Or would we break down what we learn and instead say we trained him in Boxing, Jujitsu, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and Kickboxing etc?
Even amongst pros, They are usually categorized as - - - specialists. It’s already assumed people will mix things up. We also know that you will miss out on many “in style rules” and cultures that are distinct to their respective gyms.
My hypothetical son can say he trained in boxing, Muay Thai etc, But he missed out on the big city urban boxing culture, the nak Muay culture, the wai kru, the belts in BJJ, etc.
The "real" MMA was the friends we made along the way.
I think in One Muay Thai or kick boxing, they would fight with MMA gloves and in an MMA octagon. With the change in gloves alone, the fighters started to adapt their guard since MMA gloves are considerably smaller than boxing gloves. The fight looks almost similar to an MMA match with no ground grappling
My thinking is, for example in tennis there are certain techniques you get taught as correct or optimal but it has nothing to do with scoring. Maybe if someone uses an incorrect technique they will develop some issues with the joints eventually but if they win they win.
Meanwhile, in the background, the mob is like: FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!
I like MMA as a rule set for everybody who wishes to compete in a free fighting..same as K-1 Kickboxing is for everyone who wants to compete in striking (muay thai, Karate, Sanda, etc.) and Submission Grappling is for grapplers (BJJ, catch wrestling, Judo, etc.)
So basically in styles you trace a movements and technique. Then in mma you create your own custom style. So its still a style but a unique style.
The answer is unimportant. Martial arts is and art. Freely and honestly express yourself however you like. With or without a label or style or rule set. Work hard, respect each other and enjoy the journey.
MMA is a sport and certainly not an art. There's rules... no eye strikes, no downward elbows, no biting, rounds with rests in between. One only fights one other person, normally the same size and "skill."
I see MMA as a fight system outside of the combat sports setting.
I read in a book "The Fighter's Mind" (I think) that there is a phrase "Rules make styles but styles make fights." If that's the case, wouldn't the MMA ruleset of "UFC" make it a style unto itself? (As well as giving credence to the old misclamenture "You fight UFC bro?")?
I think a lot of sport related daytrippers in the general public tend to get confused by the distinction between MMA (the overarching term for the sport), and BJJ (a specific style currently enjoying the most dominance in said sport). It's similar to the sort of confusion some people have distinguishing between say, Bandages (a general term for a topical wound dressing) and Bandaids (a specific brand name of household bandages) in casual speech. It's not just semantics, but people blur the distinction anyway, because we humans have an innate general tendency towards laziness and imprecision when we communicate - especially online. I'll stop there, because anytime I start blathering about philology or epistemology, I can FEEL the dislike heating up from all sides ... and I forgot my sunscreen today. 🤪
A style implies that there is a shared methodology of training or technique and tradition. MMA isn’t a style YET, but one day it may develop into one. That’s just my view on it but I think that after a few more decades there will be a base MMA style that just covers the generalizations of the basics of every aspect of MMA.
a martial arts style forms by default in general and specifically when a rule set forms to define a certain style of fighting for the practitioner or grp of practitioners being taught to replicate it.
the martial arts rule set insures the individual practitioner is able to develop a style of practice that enables them to achieve their goals through a specific method/rule set/style, be they achieving a certain skill set, maintaining a certain skill set etc etc, much like a person going to the gym wants to achieve a certain fitness or look and then maintain it, if they wish to do so efficiently they will develop or adopt and maintain a certain rule set and style of exercise regime to do so.
when someone is defined as a MMA fighter, this can mean they fight people or diferent styles or it could mean their generalized "style" of fighting and rule set being mixed, that they adopt rule sets and styles for fighting from other generalized and specific taught styles or martial arts and continue to maintain these skill sets to some degree or in part according to their original sources rule set, so they remain identifiable and in practice a part of a separate martial arts style, but it does not define which styles they adopt from, how much, how many etc etc, as such how they actually practice/express their "style" of MMA and even if they are labeled a MMA practitioner, they also may not be one.
as a MMA practitioner may only appear as one because their fighting style "appears" to borrow from other well known styles, but yet does not adopt nor follow any of their rule sets, so despite appearing as such they are infact practicing their own martial arts style and are not practicing a MMA style.
some people who think they are not a MMA practitioner and only practice 1 style are actually MMA practitioners who practice more then 1 style, for example when 1 person fights according to a diferent rule set in the ring, from out of the ring, trains diferently for in the ring and for out of the ring, they have in effect become a MMA practitioner as they adopt and practice 2 diferent martial arts rule sets.
this is common occurrence for many martial arts styles when their practitioners seek to compete, as traditional rules vs modern sports rules can often vary, with modern rule sets putting safety, legality and points over more traditional, realistic and typically illegal competition rules of the past, were almost anything was allowed if it was practiced within that style, so even weapons were permitted.
etc etc
Styles are made by their limitations. There is a real disadvantage in “training in mma” because the lack of limitations don’t allow you to increase a particular skill. A karate guy might never learn how to kick if he has to be constantly worried about being tackled. A boxer might never learn boxing distances if he’s constantly worried about being kicked while out of range of a taller mans jab. Having an excellent ability to box or kick would not be a disadvantage, but it is difficult to train in any direction if you have no starting points. Limitations really allow a style to develop and increase a certain skill elaborately. You could argue that elaborate and nuanced motions are ineffective in “real” combat but I think that the nuance of martial arts is the real tool that they offer.
So how is BJJ a discrete style from wrestling or Judo or Sambo? The only real difference between the four is what moves are legal, what uniforms you wear and what gets points. If you saw a match of any of those without uniforms or a rule framework, you wouldn't be able to tell one from the other.
MMA is less a style, more a combination of very useful techniques from many styles to match a specific ruleset. I like to think of it as being a student, and each martial art is a course series with an overarching syllabus. MMA simply adheres to more than one syllabus.
We should get master wong in on every video with ramsay
To my understanding mixed martial arts is just knowing and applying different styles in your arsenal. It's more a system that varies by person based on their strengths and weaknesses. Competition MMA and self defense MMA are totally different applications of the same idea.
I think MMA is the Contextual Catalyst for Martial arts. In the same way warfare dictated martial arts in the past. Look at medieval sword fighting compared to renaissance fencing. Essentially people changed from orthodox stance (shield arm and weapon arm) to a south paw stance (weapon arm forward). Basically MMA is not a style but a context to allow martial arts to live on a bit more freely.
I would like to address one of Ramsey deweys comments the ibjjf isn't really the most popular rule set unfortunately it has a lot of high-level competitors and I believe that's why a lot of people do it a lot of people do not really care for the ibjjf rule sets
I'd say that it is a conglomerate of styles.
combat sport is centered around events..ufc, bellator, glory whatever these are not styles, they are promotions & events with rules
I like do think in MMA as a martial concept
The term "style" is used for recognition of the set of training and movements it has. But in MMA the limitations are very small, calling its huge variety of movements and training principle as a "style" is no longer helpful in defining it. I think it should be think in the way that, is calling MMA style helpful in helping others what you trained and specialized in? I personally do not think so, so I won't call MMA a style of martial arts.
the way i see it mma is a handyman it's a sport but not a style it's a mixture of different styles. now people want to see it as a style but realty is it isn't a style to me has a tradition behind it it's own set of rules and code of conduct. i have trained in tae kwon do, boxing and currently muay thai. in my opinion ufc was a lot more entertaining when it was style vs style seeing guys go at it.
Would it be more accurate to say it’s not a style YET? MMA is basically cross training between different styles, usually grappling and striking, but with gyms teaching this cross training routine, you can tell by the movement that someone is cross trained in striking and grappling most times because the hybrid stance they tend to take. Hands up like stringing but slightly bent for grappling also. At least that’s what I see.
MMA (or any sport/situation) is the problem, the styles are formalized attempts to answer that question.
If you look at MMA and street fights even the amateur MMA practitioner out classes most boxers or untrained and even most traditional martial artists, and may not be specifically a style but gets used as one. They'd do better if they even edited MMA a bit. The takedowns, how you use the clinch, headbutts, clothing, how and where you punch, etc. Also the changing rules in a street fight, commonly known as "local and National laws". Potential weapons, obviously that and potentially having multiple combatants.
Im currently being taught one on one by my uncle which has owned a dojo before. Should i stick with him or train with an actual dojo (I love practicing karate with him i just want to be the best i can be
I feel a little silly trying to quibble w/ Ramsey Dewey, Icy Mike, and Sensi Seth (though the latter seems to be more agnostic on the point than the aforementioned)---but I'm a silly man!
I wonder if that the debate actually concerns the differences between combat sports and traditional martial arts; and the ambivalence ppl feel regarding the 'other' side of the fence. It's difficult to suffer much confusion discerning between a mauy thai match, a wrestling match, or a mma fight. It's also equally as clear that ppl doing chi-sao, competing in karate point-fighting, or a forms competition are also equally distinct from each other--while each conforming to a particular rule set.
Having said all this, i do acknowledge the general openness of MMA--particularly as contrasted with the 'rules' doing chi-sao---makes it seem counter-intuitive, even disrespectful, to declare it a style.
Perhaps it's best thought as the style of no-style (bruce lee on JKD i think?). In any event, I feel a bit less certain about my position but can't get past the idea that we can easily discern between mma, judo, or tang so do karate.