I hope that ZU becomes an official tier at some point. There are way too many Pokémon untiered right now, and OU feels like Ubers with UU feeling like OU
I think the more people playing ZU, the higher are the chances it becomes an official tier. If it wasn't for the Dexcut, we would have a lot more Untiered Pokemon. Either because the cut Pokemon would be thrown in Untiered or they would outclass NU and PU Pokemon that in turn would be thrown in Untiered.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 you don't think it means anything because you don't know how it works or why it's in place. The story is pretty much the same for all people who advocate for blind rejection of Smogon tiers. Take a ZU tier team and battle a team with just 2 OU's and an Uber and tell me it isn't good for anything. Tiers allow objectively almost useless mons to have a chance to shine and lead to more creativity in team creation in the lower tiers. If you don't like it, go play anything goes and get your ass blown out every single game while you insist that Tangela is actually a good Pokémon.
I'd argue that's more true for Seismitoad, but Toad hasn't been below RU yet. It sees rather consistent usage in RU, UU, and OU, and has been a major metagame player in all 3 tiers at one point in this gen. Hell, I still use it in OU on my rain team since it's the best special rain sweeper in the game right now. Even without max speed investment it can still outspeed DPult and Zeraora, and a LO Weather Ball in the rain is capable of eating through Pokemon like Clef and Corv.
Except it’s not about recognition. It’s about Kyurem getting banned, as people were prepping for Kyu before and Volcanion just didn’t have answers to those Kyurem checks. You can’t make a splash when 19/20 teams were already packing a hard counter
@@SaintoftheHonest Kyurem wasn't what people were preparing for for the longest time. It was middling-to-low in usage in OU until after several bans. To be fair, though, you can't really justify Kyurem when Pheromosa, Urshifu-S, and Spectrier are running around, so it makes sense that Kyurem ended up being a big problem at the end of the tier's lifespan because it was now a relevant threat.
honestly i thought it was a joke because of the two volcanions at the beginning just absorbing each other's steam eruptions over and over, that got a real laugh out of me because i thought it was scripted
Goddamn, the Cobalion section really shocked me. I haven’t played UU in a long time, and seeing former OU staples like Excadrill, Aegislash, Celesteela, Jirachi, Tapi Bulu, Tangrowth, Chansey, Skarmory, and Mandibuzz down there was surreal. This has got to be the strongest UU ever; I used to play when Noivern and Cobalian were the top-tier threats and the Gen was considered a rolling back of power creep, so such a change gave me some whiplash lol. At least it’s nice to see Hydreigon, Krookodile, Azelf, and Conkeldurr still trucking along
Power creep is absolutely insane this generation. PU used to be a joke tier for absolutely trash like Ledian, but now it's a legitimate tier that's hard to stay in. We need like 3 or so more tiers at the bottom imo, PU isn't enough.
Excadrill fell down because of the meta stacking against it in OU, aegislash got a nerf to it’s offenses and defenses, celestella im unsure about but I guess it’s the Corviknight being so good and same for skarm, Tapu Bulu dropped due to rillaboom, tangrowth I’m guessing is due to how many good special attackers there are in OU that beat it, chansey loses to blissey due to Heavy duty boots, and mandibuzz is a good walk just not OU good especially with some Pokémon that can ruin it
@@ethanrussow9262 celesteela fell down because if it runs into heatran it cant do anything, and celesteelas whole thing is sticking around for more than 2 turns and setting up
We HAVE to know about those ZU shifts, all I know is that PU took many of ZU's top mons. Although it is awesome to finally have these mons escape the clutches of untiered.
Agreed. The more that people cover ZU, the closer it can get to becoming an official tier- which would be great, because it’s a very unique one where many mons run sets that you would never expect, like specs Poliwrath!
9:00 I know that PU lost Tsareena and so that's why they needed another grass spinner, that is Eldegoss. But honestly I don't think there is a specific reason for the other ones: I mean they are good mons for PU standards, but there is definitely other viable stuff that could rise but didn't rise (like Centiskorch or Sneasel which are still ZUBL)
@Catto nah frosmoth can work because of quiver dance as long as it’s biggest wall in Aggron is taken care of, which isn’t the tallest task but sometimes can be an issue
Something similar to Torkoal's massive tiering jumps is Politoed. Without Drizzle, it's pretty much worthless, but Drizzle is banned in NU and below. It'll never stand a chance in OU thanks to Pelliper being the better Drizzle user, but whenever rain is viable in UU/RU, it'll make a massive tiering jump, and when it falls out of favor, it'll make a massive tiering fall.
Even if ZU isnt a real tier, watching some pokemon moving to PU makes me smile! Some mon are actually PUBL, but dont see lot of play because the tier isnt official, so they are catalog as (PU), which hampers some good mons.
I think the tier system is really starting to show just how arbitrary it is. Tier used to be about how viable each Pokémon is, but now it's more like a pool system instead. There's the OU pool and the UU pool and the PU pool, etc. Pokemon shift from pool to pool, some Pokémon are only in a given pool just because another Pokémon is there.
It's far more complicated than that. Sure, there are things that works in ou that wouldn't be broken one tier down, but here's no way stuff like rshifu, lele, or chomp would be bearable in lower tiers.
With every meta game shift, everytime the OU usage stats are revealed, a sentiment pops up. One that needs to be addressed on this channel. _Why Landorus-T hasn't been banned from OU_ . There will never be world peace until someone yells it out for the world to hear
Because despite being used a whole lot it's not centralising. Teams aren't built with specific intent to beat landorus and the Pokémon it pairs with. It's a versatile Pokémon with common checks, it fits in a lot of places and does a lot of things well, but not so well that it needs entire strategies dedicated to taking it down. It can be adapted to and played around in the course of a normal game, it has fairly common weaknesses that are fairly strong anyway and would be run with or without its presence, and it doesn't aide any one strategy immensely well to the point of being metagame defining. If usage alone was enough criteria to ban something by smogon rules, Primal Groudon would have been AG in gen 6 and 7, Scizor would have been banned from UU in gen 6 with over 64% usage, and Mega Sableye would never have escaped the clutches of its first suspect test in gen 7 with over 50% usage. Something being common and prevalent does not warrant a ban.
Banning has nothing to do with usage. There has never been a well made team that can't deal with Lando while stuff like Spectrier was centralizing since you can only use certain mons you won't want to use to keep it in check or Gengar in bdsp which pretty much got a kill at every turn.
This was a very interesting and informative video. Despite this, I couldn't help but be mildly disappointed at a lack of an april fools', "Shuckle moved up to OU because of its unparalleled ability to sweep entire teams with Final Gambit" or something just as ridiculous.
You know? This kind of video explaining the tier shifts would had been useful for me when I started playing, so I support you doing them for the new players that might not understand how do they work. Good job man!
Torkoal is one of those mons who always has 3.5%-4.5% in higher tiers, meaning its constanlty shifting, its a good mon if you wanna play sun, but its not OP. very cool to see this old friend back with the big boys.
I really appreciate that you're making some longer videos now where explanations can be more in depth. The short videos are still good, but these are a nice change of pace
Singles literally feels like an entirely different game in opposition to VGC, some of these Pokémon are absolutely brutal in doubles, and then you get to singles and it’s like “this is surprisingly good in the lowest tier” Such a hilarious disconnect
Idk why people get so shocked... Just look at volcanion, went up a tier simply because a specific pokemon was banned... Now imagine what having diferent pokemon availabe to use, only being able to bring 4 pokes to a match, having 2 pokes at the field at the same time... Imagine what all those diferences cause... Just goes to show that most of the time, what makes a pokemom good or bad is the meta its being played at.
After these tier shift videos I would love a quick 10ish minute bite size introduction to each tier. I got a sense that UU is a weather meta from the Torkoal shift and seeing Ninetales and Pelipper, but a more fleshed video would be a really cool intro!
I just wish they gave Kabutops Shell Smash already so it would actually regain it's role as a top Rain Sweeper that's sometimes better to use than Barrescewda
I’ve always used Volcanion on a weird Sun/rain swapping weather team, using a choice scarf, Fire Blast, Steam Eruption and Solar Beam. Weather setups were Mandibuzz and Suicune, while I had a scarf Zapdos, specs Jolteon and the last slot would vary a lot
I would love to see some ZU content from you, personally. I was ZU tier leader during Sun/Moon (Xayah on smogon), and while I haven't exactly played SS, the community holds a warm place in my heart and it's always great to see people with much bigger reaches than me discuss it. I'm certain that a bunch of people in the community would be willing to talk to you as well, should be necessary, and I can get you into contact with some of them should it be needed
love how under the Volcanion segment there’s just… two Volcanions Steam Erupting into each others’ Water Absorb, each of them predicting the other to switch out, multiple turns in a row
Speaking of Steam Eruption, along with scald, it completes the trifecta of pairs of strong signature moves and weaker variants with more distribution (the others being Shadow/Phantom Force and Psystrike/Psyshock). What I find interesting is the order each move in the pair was introduced. First it was Shadow Force in Gen. IV and Phantom Force two generations later. Psystrike and Psyshock were introduced together in Gen. V, and Steam Eruption (Gen. VI) was introduced after Scald (Gen. V)
Please talk about ZU tier, if you can, in future videos. I don’t play competitive, but I enjoy listening to your videos because you’re a knowledgeable person talking about a subject that I’m interested in
It’s not ban worthy. It’s super good, but there are clear counters and checks. It’s not an unkillable wall by any means, and there are plenty of Pokémon that can switch into its attacks
I personally would love to hear about the shifting of pokemon through zu and pu. Back in gens 5-6 inloved playong NU being the lowest tier at the time iirc. So learning about these lower tiers is something im am very much down for
as a zu player peserrker , wish washi ,cinccino were all execellent pokemon and very threatening some of the most dangerous pokemon in the tier wishi washi moving to pu means that that the tier is gonna be in chaos since it was a great pivot with u-turn seeing it leave the tier opens up holes for new threats. frost moth was a busted mon with quiver dance and should be used more in higher tiers its typing is great .
If the tier a Pokemon is in is based on percentage of usage, yet you contribute more or less to this usage % based on your rank, then it’s not purely based on how much the Pokemon is used. It is probably better this way though. Imagine if Hitmontop instead jumped to NU because a majority of low-ranked players were (unsuccessfully) using it.
I feel that talking about Pokémon moving between ZU 'n' PU would be good, as it helps give a picture of the PU metagame, even if the ZU tier is unofficial. Explanations if why Pokémon are or aren't considered viable in PU come hand-in-hand with explanations about why a Pokémon rose from or fell to ZU.
when do you think ZU could become its own tier? next gen? maybe next gen features a full sec after the completion of the game. ZU just seems like such an interesting tier. featuring strong NFE’s and the worst pokémon with still something to offer.
This is a really good video serene grace. Previously I sometimes felt that you were repeating yourself too often or not saying the precise sentences you needed in order to fully explain something. However, in this one you tackle everything perfectly and answer questions like "why now and not earlier?" at the right moment, as well as providing the exact right amount of context for each change.
I'd absolutely love to hear about ZU and what even goes on there. My favorite thing to do in competitive games is to jank people out with underpowered strats, and a format where that's maximally supported sounds really cool.
Imo, my boy Tapu Bulu will probably rise to OU. His defensive advantage, typing, and Stone Edge and Close Combat have become more important than Rillaboom's U-turn, Knock off, and grassy glide. It's only a matter of time until Rillaboom drops, and it's very likely that Bulu will fill that niche. Finally! Bulu getting some love. Nice to see it.
@@zoruafox7512 I'm forever mad that he doesn't have it, but no, he genuinely is better then Rillaboom right now in the OU meta. The problem for Boom is that he struggles to get in because he lacks significant bulk, and when he does get in, he is often forced into just using U-turn. Grassy Glide seems like it should be an absolutely colossal advantage, but it really isn't. Boom has competition from Katana, while Bulu doesn't really. The only relevant thing that Katana wouldn't outspeed that dies to Glide is Barraskewda. Bulu's extra bulk and fighting resist is absolutely massive in the current meta. Bulu doesn't get murdered by Heatran and Volc like Boom does thanks to better coverage, and Bulu does much better vs Lando. Knock off is good, but there are much better users of it.
They shouldn’t weight based on player rating, but winrate instead. That way even if a high rating player plays half their games with Hitmontop, if their winrate drops substantially in those games then they will contribute less to the mon’s “strength score”.
I have a question. I understand why we work off usage stats, but volcanion going from RU to OU seems like an example of why it doesn’t work. Suddenly, because of a change in OU, volc can no longer be used in RU and UU, where I presume it was a balanced mon. Being no longer able to use him because of something that happened in a completely different tier that doesn’t affect his power of viability just seems absurd. Why does this happen?
I thought Hitmontop started getting way more NU usage because it primarily checked Goodra really well + rapid spin, but now that it's gone there is no purpose for it to exist anymore because better spinners that dont need to wall goodra anymore
Seeing volcanion rising feels sureal. A friend of mine, sirwings (a good ou player) spammed it back in june 2021 like crazy. Dude was bold on the fact that it was really good, and now month later it's ou.
I'm no expert on PU/ZU so idk if Comfey might be too strong (based purely on my randbats experience with it). In the higher tiers, honestly the only ban that *might* come from the drops is Excadrill, and even then I'm doubtful, given how it's completely walled by Rotom and Skarmory.
That Hitmontop section is something that has always really annoyed me about Smogon's tiering system. Not even that it was just one person/few people doing it, but taking a mon that's not that good in the above tier, or important/healthy in the tier below, or both, and yanking it away, has always felt really stupid. Also, I would love to see ZU mentions. I always have a soft spot for the bottom-most tiers.
I’m not really surprised by cobalion moving up when it’s essentially metagross without its most major downside of its poor speed. And it’s not like there’s many things that cobalion fears that metagross doesn’t since a lot of the mons that ohko cobalion also ohko metagross like mamoswine and the nerf to steel giving metagross a weakness to knockoff a very common move where as cobalion loves switching into it thanks to justified and it’s resist is a factor too. Quite frankly I’m surprised the two resided in the same tier for so long.
@@gligurr metagross is worse cobalion. Both are offensive steel types with high defense that ideally want to use their high physical bulk and steel type to come in and then do stuff. Unfortunately for metagross it is slow and has to either a run agility or b get speed support from its team most common via sticky webs that far down the tiering rung which restricts its usage somewhat. However cobalion not only is actually quite fast so it doesn’t need this it’s actually bulkier in practice due to psychic steel actually being pretty bad defensively after steel type was nerfed in gen 6 to lose the resist to ghost and dark giving metagross a weakness to ghost types and the all too common knock off. It’s surprisingly common for wall breakers like to be able to ohko metagross even on the physical end like mamoswine bisharp’s sucker punch with a defiant boost caused by sticky webs support that metagross loves so much ect and on the special end it’s much worse. Cobalion’s typing is better defensively so it’s bulkier due to this. The prevalence of knock off is a really big problem for metagross and tbh it wouldn’t be that shocking for it to drop even further down the tiering rungs due to this. Meanwhile the buffed knock off being so common is a great reason to use cobalion since not only does it resist dark but it’s ability justified gives it extra attack when hit by dark moves. Metagross’s only notable advantages are bullet punch and it’s attack stat but it’s not ohkoing the mons that threaten to ohko it with priority usually nor outspeeding plus metagross has just been nerfed every gen since it came out unfortunately which sucks when most gens things get stronger.
@@ogmechsftw if gross got its mega back, it would proceed to get banned to ubers and be mostly useless because dusk mane exists. shift gear would be neat tho
@@necrobonesgaming2424 I mean I don’t think in a hypothetical gen 8 with megas it would be banned. It was already effectively borderline between Ubers and ou rather then actually being useful in Ubers gen 6 and 7. I suppose I can’t entirely predict how the meta would unfold if all the mons that had megas that are in gen 8 had them but it would likely be the strongest ou ever in terms of raw power barring nat dex. Some things that were banned may not have been like dracovish and I bet the changes would be enough to make mega metagross ou.
Poor Comfey. It's really made for doubles, not singles- being able to slap 50% back onto a bulky Mon with +3 priority is great, and that's in addition to having priority Draining Kiss/Giga Drain up its sleeve.
Really surprised comfey isn't good considering how dangerous it can be in vgc, it's not overpowered in the current meta but it can seriously catch you off guard if you're not thinking about it
Hitmontop is good as it can be bulky with intimidate, toxic. Or can be bulky attacker with technician boosted triple axel, rapid spin, rock tomb. Hitmontop, hitmonlee and Gigalith should be NU.
Honestly I love seeing volcanion moving up. It is definitely a mythical I love. In AA it is even OP using a sheer force life orb set with what it normally runs
Volcanion is extremely good in OU. It's hard af to switch into if you don't have Tapu Fini and even then fini can't touch it and is at risk of getting blasted with a sludge wave.
I don't play competitively anymore, and when I did I didn't play on Showdown, but man seeing Landorus-T at 51% usage rate really makes me question some of the decision making that goes on with the "council." I know I know, Landorus-T is the jack of all trades but master of none, "not too strong in any one area to be banned" but still.
You say you know lando isn't broken. Yet still question the council decision making. It isn't overwhelming and never has been. It's just a good glue Mon.
@@gojirarex5138 just tired of seeing it. I also follow Smogon's facebook page and every "team of the week" above UU has Lando-T. Feel like I see it every time anything Pokemon related appears on my feed, and that's not even including actually playing the game.
It would be great if you did a video talking about what each tier means, mostly because when I go to showdown i get overwhelmed in the tier selection lol
Ubers- the only tier not based on usage. It used to be a ban list for OU but once we got enough pokemon it eventually became its own tier. This is the tier ruled by the most over powered legendaries like arceus and groudon OU- over used The standard smogon tier featuring the most popular (not necessarily the strongest) pokemon UU- underused Pokemon that are underrated and don't have the usage to be OU NU- never used Used to be the lowest tier but eventually we got more pokemon and not all of them were viable in NU is a new tier formed. PU- poorly used The lowest tier or at least it was. I haven't played competitive pokemon since sun and moon apparently a ZU tier exists now LC- little cup This is just level 5 first stage pokemon. BL is just pokemon too over powered for one tier but doesn't have the usage to officially be part of the next tier. For example in gen 7 mega gardevoir was very centralizing UU so it got banned from that tier but it didn't have much usage in OU (probably because tapu lele outclassed it in every way and didn't require a mega stone to use) so it is considered BL Important to note that you can bring pokemon from lower tiers to higher tiers but can't do the reverse. You can bring a ninjask to an ubers battle but can't bring arceus to a PU battle. This means that if a lower tier pokemon has a niche on your team feel free to use it.
I think that Kommo-o leaving is what made sun into a legit strategy. It completely countered Venusaur without Sleep Powder which was uncommon due to how good Growth + 3 attacks was against everything else. Bulletproof let it switch into Shadow Ball from Aegislash but it also meant Venusaur could only use Giga Drain and Earth Power against it. Also from what I've heard Obstagoon started to become a problem in RU so Cobalion leaving is a big oof.
I didn't thought scizor would be knocked down because it is an over all good pokemon.grimsnarl also suprised me because I thought it could handle the low power level
As someone who hasn't seriously played any competitive Pokémon since gen 6, seeing some of the Pokémon in NU and PU now that used to be major OU or UU threats is wild
Just something to note in the future: the word ‘niche’ is pronounced, “Neesh” not “Nich.” Great vid, love learning these little snippets of info in your vids! Love how densely packed the info is!
So I was curious because I've heard both, and according to Webster's, both pronunciations are considered linguistically valid, so he's actually not wrong even if I disagree
@@kriosuranous3440 Oh wow really? I’ve only ever heard ‘neesh’. I’m in the UK so I’d be interested in whereabouts it’s actually pronounced ‘nich’. ‘Nich’ does sound very, very wrong to me though I can’t lie. 😂😂
Man seeing pokémon in certain tiers is weird. I haven’t kept up with Smogon singles since sun and moon since I primarily play the tcg and seeing things like asgislash in uu and machamp in nu is pretty wild to me.
I think its so funny that one person liked Hitmontop so much that they were able to get them raised a tier
Reminds me of the guy who single handedly safed the Lapras population.
honestly based, hitmontop is a cool dude
Remembers me of aipibom, but it was more than 1 person
Remember when Ambipom rose to UU due to the most extensive tier rigging in history ?
Pepperidge farm remembers
Reminds me of when Pokeaind took ambipom to uu.
And that one time in gen5 RU where so few people played the tier that someone got Metang to RU
6:14 "Flame body talonflame is a top pokemon" imagine going back in time and saying that to xy players
I miss that bird.
@Spectator of RUclips Or just bulky Swords Dance Roost Brave Bird.
I hope that ZU becomes an official tier at some point. There are way too many Pokémon untiered right now, and OU feels like Ubers with UU feeling like OU
I think the more people playing ZU, the higher are the chances it becomes an official tier. If it wasn't for the Dexcut, we would have a lot more Untiered Pokemon. Either because the cut Pokemon would be thrown in Untiered or they would outclass NU and PU Pokemon that in turn would be thrown in Untiered.
I hope people stop thinking the tier system means anything one day. also theres already way too many categories.
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 you don't think it means anything because you don't know how it works or why it's in place. The story is pretty much the same for all people who advocate for blind rejection of Smogon tiers. Take a ZU tier team and battle a team with just 2 OU's and an Uber and tell me it isn't good for anything. Tiers allow objectively almost useless mons to have a chance to shine and lead to more creativity in team creation in the lower tiers. If you don't like it, go play anything goes and get your ass blown out every single game while you insist that Tangela is actually a good Pokémon.
@Dickgirl Nationalist 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
@@TheWonkster 🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓
Torkoal is the Quagsire of this gen. He's been all over the place.
I'd argue that's more true for Seismitoad, but Toad hasn't been below RU yet. It sees rather consistent usage in RU, UU, and OU, and has been a major metagame player in all 3 tiers at one point in this gen. Hell, I still use it in OU on my rain team since it's the best special rain sweeper in the game right now. Even without max speed investment it can still outspeed DPult and Zeraora, and a LO Weather Ball in the rain is capable of eating through Pokemon like Clef and Corv.
@@Skeloperch Seismitoad hasn't had extreme shifts like ZU to UU lol
Gastrodon
Same goes to poor Barraskweda, that guy has been jumping across OU, UU and RU the whole generation
@@Skeloperch Thank you Mr. Fish!!
Hippowdown: Drops to UU
Excadrill: Creepy evil giggling
Not much will change. Sand rush drill gets walled really easily and also gains new walls that mold breaker sets do not have
@@HowlingOneify probably why it also dropped to UU for gen 8 LMAO
Rocky Helmet skarm is common and ruins it with body press or stacks Spikes on it among other walls
Seeing Volcanion in OU was really weird, but i guess it finally gets recognition for that unique typing and good bulk
Also that high base power move with good accuracy and that amazing special attack
Except it’s not about recognition. It’s about Kyurem getting banned, as people were prepping for Kyu before and Volcanion just didn’t have answers to those Kyurem checks. You can’t make a splash when 19/20 teams were already packing a hard counter
that gengar looks funny
@@SaintoftheHonest Kyurem wasn't what people were preparing for for the longest time. It was middling-to-low in usage in OU until after several bans. To be fair, though, you can't really justify Kyurem when Pheromosa, Urshifu-S, and Spectrier are running around, so it makes sense that Kyurem ended up being a big problem at the end of the tier's lifespan because it was now a relevant threat.
Replace volcanion with kyurem and that's how people felt about kyurem back when it went from RU all the way to OU and is now banned.
i genuinely thought this was an april fools joke for a bit because of the hitmontop thing that is so funny
honestly i thought it was a joke because of the two volcanions at the beginning just absorbing each other's steam eruptions over and over, that got a real laugh out of me because i thought it was scripted
@@undergroundmonorail probably both specsed and expected the other pöayer to switch out?
@@sandroeschen9552 yeah that makes sense but at the time i thought it was just scripted to be silly :P
That Hitmontop player truly follows Elite Four Karen's advice lol.
wait... its not?
Goddamn, the Cobalion section really shocked me. I haven’t played UU in a long time, and seeing former OU staples like Excadrill, Aegislash, Celesteela, Jirachi, Tapi Bulu, Tangrowth, Chansey, Skarmory, and Mandibuzz down there was surreal. This has got to be the strongest UU ever; I used to play when Noivern and Cobalian were the top-tier threats and the Gen was considered a rolling back of power creep, so such a change gave me some whiplash lol. At least it’s nice to see Hydreigon, Krookodile, Azelf, and Conkeldurr still trucking along
Chansey and Blissey will always be OU and UU. Currently Blissey is better because of heavy duty boots so Chansey is the UU one.
Power creep is absolutely insane this generation. PU used to be a joke tier for absolutely trash like Ledian, but now it's a legitimate tier that's hard to stay in. We need like 3 or so more tiers at the bottom imo, PU isn't enough.
Excadrill fell down because of the meta stacking against it in OU, aegislash got a nerf to it’s offenses and defenses, celestella im unsure about but I guess it’s the Corviknight being so good and same for skarm, Tapu Bulu dropped due to rillaboom, tangrowth I’m guessing is due to how many good special attackers there are in OU that beat it, chansey loses to blissey due to Heavy duty boots, and mandibuzz is a good walk just not OU good especially with some Pokémon that can ruin it
@@ethanrussow9262 I mean, offensive Steela just shits on Corviknight, right?
@@ethanrussow9262 celesteela fell down because if it runs into heatran it cant do anything, and celesteelas whole thing is sticking around for more than 2 turns and setting up
We HAVE to know about those ZU shifts, all I know is that PU took many of ZU's top mons. Although it is awesome to finally have these mons escape the clutches of untiered.
Agreed.
The more that people cover ZU, the closer it can get to becoming an official tier- which would be great, because it’s a very unique one where many mons run sets that you would never expect, like specs Poliwrath!
I like this Tier Shift review kind of thing. Helps me get to know the meta of lower tiers better.
I think ZU is such an interesting tier, would honestly love a whole video just about it in general even
Saaame
9:00
I know that PU lost Tsareena and so that's why they needed another grass spinner, that is Eldegoss.
But honestly I don't think there is a specific reason for the other ones: I mean they are good mons for PU standards, but there is definitely other viable stuff that could rise but didn't rise (like Centiskorch or Sneasel which are still ZUBL)
@Catto because snom
@Catto nah frosmoth can work because of quiver dance as long as it’s biggest wall in Aggron is taken care of, which isn’t the tallest task but sometimes can be an issue
Something similar to Torkoal's massive tiering jumps is Politoed. Without Drizzle, it's pretty much worthless, but Drizzle is banned in NU and below. It'll never stand a chance in OU thanks to Pelliper being the better Drizzle user, but whenever rain is viable in UU/RU, it'll make a massive tiering jump, and when it falls out of favor, it'll make a massive tiering fall.
Even if ZU isnt a real tier, watching some pokemon moving to PU makes me smile!
Some mon are actually PUBL, but dont see lot of play because the tier isnt official, so they are catalog as (PU), which hampers some good mons.
I think that you meant ZUBL.
I think the tier system is really starting to show just how arbitrary it is. Tier used to be about how viable each Pokémon is, but now it's more like a pool system instead. There's the OU pool and the UU pool and the PU pool, etc. Pokemon shift from pool to pool, some Pokémon are only in a given pool just because another Pokémon is there.
It's far more complicated than that. Sure, there are things that works in ou that wouldn't be broken one tier down, but here's no way stuff like rshifu, lele, or chomp would be bearable in lower tiers.
@@oqo3310 yeah, but I think the point he was making is that tiers are no longer only that, not that there is none or a minority of that
Yeah that last point is true for Torkoal, my man only moved up to UU thanks to Venasaur
The Hitmontop section was so funny, really confirms the get Magikarp to OU video
With every meta game shift, everytime the OU usage stats are revealed, a sentiment pops up. One that needs to be addressed on this channel. _Why Landorus-T hasn't been banned from OU_ . There will never be world peace until someone yells it out for the world to hear
Because despite being used a whole lot it's not centralising. Teams aren't built with specific intent to beat landorus and the Pokémon it pairs with. It's a versatile Pokémon with common checks, it fits in a lot of places and does a lot of things well, but not so well that it needs entire strategies dedicated to taking it down. It can be adapted to and played around in the course of a normal game, it has fairly common weaknesses that are fairly strong anyway and would be run with or without its presence, and it doesn't aide any one strategy immensely well to the point of being metagame defining.
If usage alone was enough criteria to ban something by smogon rules, Primal Groudon would have been AG in gen 6 and 7, Scizor would have been banned from UU in gen 6 with over 64% usage, and Mega Sableye would never have escaped the clutches of its first suspect test in gen 7 with over 50% usage. Something being common and prevalent does not warrant a ban.
If you ban lando-T you will have to ban several other Pokemons later
@@laytonjr6601 And that's most of the OU gone if Landorus-T is banned
@@Kali_Krause landorus letting all the broken mons stay in the tier is pretty much the only thing I actually dislike about it
Banning has nothing to do with usage. There has never been a well made team that can't deal with Lando while stuff like Spectrier was centralizing since you can only use certain mons you won't want to use to keep it in check or Gengar in bdsp which pretty much got a kill at every turn.
This was a very interesting and informative video. Despite this, I couldn't help but be mildly disappointed at a lack of an april fools', "Shuckle moved up to OU because of its unparalleled ability to sweep entire teams with Final Gambit" or something just as ridiculous.
I like April Fool's jokes that aren't so ridiculous. The Hitmontop tier shift is a top tier prank
You know? This kind of video explaining the tier shifts would had been useful for me when I started playing, so I support you doing them for the new players that might not understand how do they work. Good job man!
Torkoal is one of those mons who always has 3.5%-4.5% in higher tiers, meaning its constanlty shifting, its a good mon if you wanna play sun, but its not OP. very cool to see this old friend back with the big boys.
I really appreciate that you're making some longer videos now where explanations can be more in depth. The short videos are still good, but these are a nice change of pace
Singles literally feels like an entirely different game in opposition to VGC, some of these Pokémon are absolutely brutal in doubles, and then you get to singles and it’s like “this is surprisingly good in the lowest tier”
Such a hilarious disconnect
Idk why people get so shocked... Just look at volcanion, went up a tier simply because a specific pokemon was banned...
Now imagine what having diferent pokemon availabe to use, only being able to bring 4 pokes to a match, having 2 pokes at the field at the same time... Imagine what all those diferences cause... Just goes to show that most of the time, what makes a pokemom good or bad is the meta its being played at.
gimme an example, I've never played VGC and I'm curious.
@@goldenarmour7975 incineroar is currently RU in smogon
then you move over to vgc and
oh
Oh no
Nonono
@@Kamirasu like the most broken mon ever, I suppose?
@@goldenarmour7975 what intimidate + fake out + parting shot + a great defensive typing does to a mf
Very interesting, it's nice to see Machanp getting some good usage!
And yeah, would love to see more about the zu tier too!
After these tier shift videos I would love a quick 10ish minute bite size introduction to each tier. I got a sense that UU is a weather meta from the Torkoal shift and seeing Ninetales and Pelipper, but a more fleshed video would be a really cool intro!
I just wish they gave Kabutops Shell Smash already so it would actually regain it's role as a top Rain Sweeper that's sometimes better to use than Barrescewda
I love how Hitmontop has gone up in usage just because one person cannot stop using it
Can't stop the top
Ah yes i know him. He's me.
Why is that person's name blurred out?
@@Nonikt wait ur uberfriend?
@@Nonikt it's me actually . But I love sharing
I’ve always used Volcanion on a weird Sun/rain swapping weather team, using a choice scarf, Fire Blast, Steam Eruption and Solar Beam. Weather setups were Mandibuzz and Suicune, while I had a scarf Zapdos, specs Jolteon and the last slot would vary a lot
I would love to see some ZU content from you, personally. I was ZU tier leader during Sun/Moon (Xayah on smogon), and while I haven't exactly played SS, the community holds a warm place in my heart and it's always great to see people with much bigger reaches than me discuss it. I'm certain that a bunch of people in the community would be willing to talk to you as well, should be necessary, and I can get you into contact with some of them should it be needed
its great to see that your still in the community zu is such a great tier
ZU community is a truly wholesome place. I player it a lot pre DLC. With my inseparabile doggo last resort stoutland
Really love this, it helps a lot to make sense of what Smogon puts out. Keep going man !
I'd be interested in hearing about ZU Tier shifts, too! Love these longer analysis videos! Thanks for uploading!
love how under the Volcanion segment there’s just… two Volcanions Steam Erupting into each others’ Water Absorb, each of them predicting the other to switch out, multiple turns in a row
Speaking of Steam Eruption, along with scald, it completes the trifecta of pairs of strong signature moves and weaker variants with more distribution (the others being Shadow/Phantom Force and Psystrike/Psyshock). What I find interesting is the order each move in the pair was introduced. First it was Shadow Force in Gen. IV and Phantom Force two generations later. Psystrike and Psyshock were introduced together in Gen. V, and Steam Eruption (Gen. VI) was introduced after Scald (Gen. V)
I would so be into more about the Pokemon that shifted between PU and ZU! I love these videos they're so interesting :)
Excellent explanation for each tier shift, please post more
Please talk about ZU tier, if you can, in future videos. I don’t play competitive, but I enjoy listening to your videos because you’re a knowledgeable person talking about a subject that I’m interested in
Could you do “why landorus-t hasn’t been banned?” He’s been a constant S-tier in OU for multiple generations
It’s not ban worthy. It’s super good, but there are clear counters and checks. It’s not an unkillable wall by any means, and there are plenty of Pokémon that can switch into its attacks
Its the staple mon that holds the tier together like glue.
because lando-t is just good at a lot of things. He doesnt do any particular things to a degree where its overwheleming
Why do a lot of people seem to have a special disdain for it?
@@emblemblade9245 Because it's used a lot
I personally would love to hear about the shifting of pokemon through zu and pu. Back in gens 5-6 inloved playong NU being the lowest tier at the time iirc. So learning about these lower tiers is something im am very much down for
as a zu player peserrker , wish washi ,cinccino were all execellent pokemon and very threatening some of the most dangerous pokemon in the tier wishi washi moving to pu means that that the tier is gonna be in chaos since it was a great pivot with u-turn seeing it leave the tier opens up holes for new threats. frost moth was a busted mon with quiver dance and should be used more in higher tiers its typing is great .
Im actually interesting in knowing why is frosmoth good enough to be in pu now?
I really hope that the guy who really likes hitmontop has a nice day
Thank you bro
If the tier a Pokemon is in is based on percentage of usage, yet you contribute more or less to this usage % based on your rank, then it’s not purely based on how much the Pokemon is used.
It is probably better this way though. Imagine if Hitmontop instead jumped to NU because a majority of low-ranked players were (unsuccessfully) using it.
great vid. As a new player a video like this really helps understand the meta.
I feel that talking about Pokémon moving between ZU 'n' PU would be good, as it helps give a picture of the PU metagame, even if the ZU tier is unofficial. Explanations if why Pokémon are or aren't considered viable in PU come hand-in-hand with explanations about why a Pokémon rose from or fell to ZU.
when do you think ZU could become its own tier? next gen? maybe next gen features a full sec after the completion of the game. ZU just seems like such an interesting tier. featuring strong NFE’s and the worst pokémon with still something to offer.
Man, scizor dropping down is crazy. I have seen a practically static OU since I started, so seeing it shift is mind blowing
honestly for ou 500 bst isn’t good enough anymore
stall is an exception btw
This is a really good video serene grace. Previously I sometimes felt that you were repeating yourself too often or not saying the precise sentences you needed in order to fully explain something. However, in this one you tackle everything perfectly and answer questions like "why now and not earlier?" at the right moment, as well as providing the exact right amount of context for each change.
I'd absolutely love to hear about ZU and what even goes on there. My favorite thing to do in competitive games is to jank people out with underpowered strats, and a format where that's maximally supported sounds really cool.
Just found your channel. Love your content and it’s quantity of resources!
Imo, my boy Tapu Bulu will probably rise to OU. His defensive advantage, typing, and Stone Edge and Close Combat have become more important than Rillaboom's U-turn, Knock off, and grassy glide. It's only a matter of time until Rillaboom drops, and it's very likely that Bulu will fill that niche. Finally! Bulu getting some love. Nice to see it.
And then that will seal the deal of the Nidoking potential rise thanks to Bulu’s 4x poison weakness
He will become ou when he gets play rough. No sooner then that
Seems like uu is gonna need rillaboom thanks to hippo
@@Walrus5 nah bulu hits harder and it’s not like you would be outspeed by the hippo to make grassy glide relevant for that matchup.
@@zoruafox7512 I'm forever mad that he doesn't have it, but no, he genuinely is better then Rillaboom right now in the OU meta. The problem for Boom is that he struggles to get in because he lacks significant bulk, and when he does get in, he is often forced into just using U-turn. Grassy Glide seems like it should be an absolutely colossal advantage, but it really isn't. Boom has competition from Katana, while Bulu doesn't really. The only relevant thing that Katana wouldn't outspeed that dies to Glide is Barraskewda. Bulu's extra bulk and fighting resist is absolutely massive in the current meta. Bulu doesn't get murdered by Heatran and Volc like Boom does thanks to better coverage, and Bulu does much better vs Lando. Knock off is good, but there are much better users of it.
They shouldn’t weight based on player rating, but winrate instead. That way even if a high rating player plays half their games with Hitmontop, if their winrate drops substantially in those games then they will contribute less to the mon’s “strength score”.
I have a question. I understand why we work off usage stats, but volcanion going from RU to OU seems like an example of why it doesn’t work. Suddenly, because of a change in OU, volc can no longer be used in RU and UU, where I presume it was a balanced mon. Being no longer able to use him because of something that happened in a completely different tier that doesn’t affect his power of viability just seems absurd. Why does this happen?
I thought Hitmontop started getting way more NU usage because it primarily checked Goodra really well + rapid spin, but now that it's gone there is no purpose for it to exist anymore because better spinners that dont need to wall goodra anymore
Seeing volcanion rising feels sureal. A friend of mine, sirwings (a good ou player) spammed it back in june 2021 like crazy. Dude was bold on the fact that it was really good, and now month later it's ou.
Banger video please keep making these
It would be cool to see you talk about ZU, it’s my favourite tier rn and it has been for a while
Haha it was me Uberfiend!!!!!
You didn't have to shade out my name!😂 Also top is very good if explained properly.
I would love to know for the ZU tier. And I love that type a video a lot ! Hope you'll make one for every shifts !
I'm no expert on PU/ZU so idk if Comfey might be too strong (based purely on my randbats experience with it).
In the higher tiers, honestly the only ban that *might* come from the drops is Excadrill, and even then I'm doubtful, given how it's completely walled by Rotom and Skarmory.
i would love to see more of these videos every three months
Will you go over the BDSP tier shifts as well or just sword and shield?
That Hitmontop section is something that has always really annoyed me about Smogon's tiering system. Not even that it was just one person/few people doing it, but taking a mon that's not that good in the above tier, or important/healthy in the tier below, or both, and yanking it away, has always felt really stupid.
Also, I would love to see ZU mentions. I always have a soft spot for the bottom-most tiers.
Definitely miss dusk-lycanroc in ru
Don't think volcanion will be on OU for a long time but really appreciate it getting some love
its pretty strong. I think it will stay.
also im surprised they didnt move regieleki down
@@Walrus5 eleki still is above 4.52% surprisingly.
@@ttttttttttttttttt. bruh why
@@Walrus5 wdym why, people used it enough to keep it above 4.52% lmao
I’m not really surprised by cobalion moving up when it’s essentially metagross without its most major downside of its poor speed. And it’s not like there’s many things that cobalion fears that metagross doesn’t since a lot of the mons that ohko cobalion also ohko metagross like mamoswine and the nerf to steel giving metagross a weakness to knockoff a very common move where as cobalion loves switching into it thanks to justified and it’s resist is a factor too. Quite frankly I’m surprised the two resided in the same tier for so long.
what you just said makes no sense whatsoever
@@gligurr metagross is worse cobalion. Both are offensive steel types with high defense that ideally want to use their high physical bulk and steel type to come in and then do stuff. Unfortunately for metagross it is slow and has to either a run agility or b get speed support from its team most common via sticky webs that far down the tiering rung which restricts its usage somewhat. However cobalion not only is actually quite fast so it doesn’t need this it’s actually bulkier in practice due to psychic steel actually being pretty bad defensively after steel type was nerfed in gen 6 to lose the resist to ghost and dark giving metagross a weakness to ghost types and the all too common knock off. It’s surprisingly common for wall breakers like to be able to ohko metagross even on the physical end like mamoswine bisharp’s sucker punch with a defiant boost caused by sticky webs support that metagross loves so much ect and on the special end it’s much worse. Cobalion’s typing is better defensively so it’s bulkier due to this. The prevalence of knock off is a really big problem for metagross and tbh it wouldn’t be that shocking for it to drop even further down the tiering rungs due to this. Meanwhile the buffed knock off being so common is a great reason to use cobalion since not only does it resist dark but it’s ability justified gives it extra attack when hit by dark moves. Metagross’s only notable advantages are bullet punch and it’s attack stat but it’s not ohkoing the mons that threaten to ohko it with priority usually nor outspeeding plus metagross has just been nerfed every gen since it came out unfortunately which sucks when most gens things get stronger.
@@zoruafox7512 so what you're saying is, metagross should get its mega back. shell smash or shift gear would be great too
@@ogmechsftw if gross got its mega back, it would proceed to get banned to ubers and be mostly useless because dusk mane exists.
shift gear would be neat tho
@@necrobonesgaming2424 I mean I don’t think in a hypothetical gen 8 with megas it would be banned. It was already effectively borderline between Ubers and ou rather then actually being useful in Ubers gen 6 and 7. I suppose I can’t entirely predict how the meta would unfold if all the mons that had megas that are in gen 8 had them but it would likely be the strongest ou ever in terms of raw power barring nat dex. Some things that were banned may not have been like dracovish and I bet the changes would be enough to make mega metagross ou.
Poor Comfey. It's really made for doubles, not singles- being able to slap 50% back onto a bulky Mon with +3 priority is great, and that's in addition to having priority Draining Kiss/Giga Drain up its sleeve.
Really surprised comfey isn't good considering how dangerous it can be in vgc, it's not overpowered in the current meta but it can seriously catch you off guard if you're not thinking about it
Hitmontop is good as it can be bulky with intimidate, toxic. Or can be bulky attacker with technician boosted triple axel, rapid spin, rock tomb.
Hitmontop, hitmonlee and Gigalith should be NU.
Hitmonlee isn't very good in pu, so I doubt it would ever rise.
wait you're telling me ZU isn't just another name for untiered? I gotta know more
the ZU metagame is really interesting, would love to hear your take on it
Honestly I love seeing volcanion moving up. It is definitely a mythical I love. In AA it is even OP using a sheer force life orb set with what it normally runs
Volcanion getting recognition it deserves. Amazing
Asa huge ZU player I would love to see any kind of content on the tier.
As a casual ZU ladder player, I'd be really interested to hear the reasons for mons moving from ZU to PU.
oh god hippowdon sand rush and excadrill in uu.
mad shifts are gonna happen in that tier.
Tangrowth
time to play uu
@@Haroldino Tangrowth can't handle both of them, especially if Hippo runs Fire Fang
@@blackcatbanazai1421 Fire Fang Hippo is barely enough to scratch Phys Def Tangrowth lol
@@breloommaster12 That's until people start using Darmanitan on sand teams.
Volcanion is extremely good in OU. It's hard af to switch into if you don't have Tapu Fini and even then fini can't touch it and is at risk of getting blasted with a sludge wave.
Bruh, Volcanion literally counters Tapu Fini, Fini would prefer to not switch in at all unless it's for a desperate pivot attempt
I don't play competitively anymore, and when I did I didn't play on Showdown, but man seeing Landorus-T at 51% usage rate really makes me question some of the decision making that goes on with the "council." I know I know, Landorus-T is the jack of all trades but master of none, "not too strong in any one area to be banned" but still.
You say you know lando isn't broken. Yet still question the council decision making. It isn't overwhelming and never has been. It's just a good glue Mon.
@@HowlingOneifyYou're allowed to know a thing and still not agree with and/or like that thing.
I mean ye but like what are they gonna do as you said its not broken there is no need to fix
@@gojirarex5138 just tired of seeing it. I also follow Smogon's facebook page and every "team of the week" above UU has Lando-T. Feel like I see it every time anything Pokemon related appears on my feed, and that's not even including actually playing the game.
This is awesome you should do this every time
It would be great if you did a video talking about what each tier means, mostly because when I go to showdown i get overwhelmed in the tier selection lol
Ubers- the only tier not based on usage. It used to be a ban list for OU but once we got enough pokemon it eventually became its own tier. This is the tier ruled by the most over powered legendaries like arceus and groudon
OU- over used
The standard smogon tier featuring the most popular (not necessarily the strongest) pokemon
UU- underused
Pokemon that are underrated and don't have the usage to be OU
NU- never used
Used to be the lowest tier but eventually we got more pokemon and not all of them were viable in NU is a new tier formed.
PU- poorly used
The lowest tier or at least it was. I haven't played competitive pokemon since sun and moon apparently a ZU tier exists now
LC- little cup
This is just level 5 first stage pokemon.
BL is just pokemon too over powered for one tier but doesn't have the usage to officially be part of the next tier.
For example in gen 7 mega gardevoir was very centralizing UU so it got banned from that tier but it didn't have much usage in OU (probably because tapu lele outclassed it in every way and didn't require a mega stone to use) so it is considered BL
Important to note that you can bring pokemon from lower tiers to higher tiers but can't do the reverse.
You can bring a ninjask to an ubers battle but can't bring arceus to a PU battle. This means that if a lower tier pokemon has a niche on your team feel free to use it.
I think that Kommo-o leaving is what made sun into a legit strategy. It completely countered Venusaur without Sleep Powder which was uncommon due to how good Growth + 3 attacks was against everything else. Bulletproof let it switch into Shadow Ball from Aegislash but it also meant Venusaur could only use Giga Drain and Earth Power against it. Also from what I've heard Obstagoon started to become a problem in RU so Cobalion leaving is a big oof.
I didn't thought scizor would be knocked down because it is an over all good pokemon.grimsnarl also suprised me because I thought it could handle the low power level
Scizor isn't good in OU though and that's why it dropped. It will be fine in UU.
Thats good to hear
I feel like Rotom W, Volcanion, and a toxic absorber would make a solid core for balance teams.
As someone who hasn't seriously played any competitive Pokémon since gen 6, seeing some of the Pokémon in NU and PU now that used to be major OU or UU threats is wild
Well damn, there goes my UU sun team with Solar Beam Volcanion 😔
7:00 why was the sprite censored? I really want to know which one it was now
Swimmergal.
Just something to note in the future: the word ‘niche’ is pronounced, “Neesh” not “Nich.” Great vid, love learning these little snippets of info in your vids! Love how densely packed the info is!
You may pronounce it like “neesh”, but “nich” is also a correct way to pronounce niche.
So I was curious because I've heard both, and according to Webster's, both pronunciations are considered linguistically valid, so he's actually not wrong even if I disagree
Yeah I think it's regional. Neesh is what I've always heard in Canada
@@kriosuranous3440 Oh wow really? I’ve only ever heard ‘neesh’. I’m in the UK so I’d be interested in whereabouts it’s actually pronounced ‘nich’. ‘Nich’ does sound very, very wrong to me though I can’t lie. 😂😂
Me when I see the poster:Wait scizor is back to UU? I thought it's still popular in OU
Me after watching this video:Oh right I'm playing low ladder
Volcanion getting the tier shift it deserves :D
The absolute madlad made his favorite pokemon move up a tier out of sheer spite
Man seeing pokémon in certain tiers is weird. I haven’t kept up with Smogon singles since sun and moon since I primarily play the tcg and seeing things like asgislash in uu and machamp in nu is pretty wild to me.
You should do a full video of the ban lists of various tiers. If it’s too much do them one by one
I do not do completive pokemon its way out of my league, but i still love watching these videos.
Let's be clear, garbodor being in PU just feels right
i'd like to see these tier shift videos come back
Can’t wait for the sand force hippowdon sets to see some shine, the thing is a DEMON with choice band
Bruh there is tangrowth and skarm in the tier, alongside far better breaker. No way people are gonna run this.
@@oqo3310 maybe, but them stone edge crits gonna hurt
7:00 hold up, the opponent is called cassiopeia. scarlet/violet leaks
hitmontop getting the ambipom treatment so unfortunate
Torkoal made a huge jump for a little tortoise
I’m annoyed by the eldegoss move, I used her in PU and ZU as my spinner/sleeper and now I can’t anymore in ZU and my team doesn’t make sense
I can say I played a small roll in the sun team pokemon getting brought up to UU (I've been running a sun team for the past few weeks)
Somebody's got an avatar that needs to be blurred and I find this detail hilarious.
Comfee used to be my favorite pheromosa/urshifu-S counter when they were legal in OU
"Garbodor has dropped from NU to PU mainly for the pun."