How To Not Suck At Sieging
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- Опубликовано: 5 янв 2020
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Игры
Imagine an army general dancing around in the middle of a battlefield to dodge projectiles while the rest of its army just stand in the back watching lol
"Close Victory"
All of hexoatls units extremely high tier, 4-5 ancient stegadons, Mazdamundi himself, Kroak, and a feral carnasaur, all dead with practically 0 kills
Deployed 3153 troops, leaves with 3034, gained most of them back because replenishment
Enemy army loses half their forces during the siege, loses all of them because they lost the siege
mfw nearly 10:1 k/d ratio versus higher tier army
yeah okay game.
You didn't count numerous bolts shot by DShards and BThrowers! Are their "lives" wothless, you senseless brute? Well, game thinks the other way!
Time matters too, that's why all those slow and methodical cheese strats get close and not decisive.
I got a phyric victory when I lost 1549 out of 2700 something against 5402 vampires. I literally had 1100 kills on my companions of quenelles. HOW ISNT THAT A HEROIC VICTORY. Bruh I only got like 3 chiv points from that. I feel like i only get this shit in tw2 tho.
@@yamiji3380 That's not correct. I regularly take upwards of 15-20 minutes cheesing sieges and I get decisive plenty enough.
I think the problem is the game does ot count the ennemy army as entirely destroyed ^^
>breaks the enemy's will without ever entering the city
>close victory
Wut?
Its like the logic of the autoresolve bar XD
I won the star of avelorn quest battle with minimal loss, only 1 unit even took damage and it was minimal, barely used any ammo (alarielle with 6 resistant hand maidens can kill the frost wyrm in melee without ever getting hit). Close victory...
old as fuck comment but for some reason CA decided to add ammo to the formula which calculates heroic/clear/close/pyrrhic victories.
I've had victories where I didn't lose a man outnumbered 2:1 on the autoresolve bar as dwarves and got "close victory" because I was almost out of ammo
@@duckheadbob Yea, close victory is fine... but pyrrhic victory?
it's called sarcasm...ptff...people these days...
“You shot 5 arrows to win so phyrric victory” gotta love the AI lol
"those arrows were your precious comrades that you have lost in vain" derpy Total War AI.
I recently fought with 1100 dwarves against 2500 Norskans in a chokepoint. I lost 4, they lost 1500. It was a "close victory" because my artillery and Ironbreaker ammo was running slightly low...
Auto Resolve be like
*DECISIVE VICTORY*
1000 Ally Casualty - 100 Enemy Casualty
Myriel, Sorceress of Beast magic: "What is my Purpose, General?"
LoTW: "You're a Mana Battery."
Myriel: ".... Oh my god."
Additionally, if you use up all of your ammo, and still aren't strong enough for an all-out attack, you can wait for the timer to end. It will give you a draw. You will still be besieging the settlement, so the enemy won't get replenishment, and next turn, you can just attack for the next time, usually winning without any casualties, since you don't have to shoot towers for the second time, saving ammo on your artillery (especially good on Skaven) and getting full ammo/magic.
Meta Siege: Genius ! Current campaign is on unlimited time unfortunately :(
Martin Carion you can change that mid campaign in the settings
@@RustlessPotato It can be changed mid campaign if you really want to in the campaign options. I like to have the classical 60 minutes, but 40 minutes would usually be the best time, when you can, use up all your ammo and magic, and then don't stand around for 10 minutes in triple speed. Depends on how many ranged units you have.
Nice! but I think the dude was just shooting at chameleon lol.
Dude WHAT
Amazing
How to not suck at seige:
1: Hope your not fighting skaven so Warp Lighting can't one shot an entire card off the walls every 40 seconds.
2: Profit
Or you look at one part of your army and suddenly 5 units in the back get nuked by a rocket.
@Tom V. overcast + forcing the enemy into blobs (units leaving the siege towers for example)
Tom V. Step 1. Click on the spell
Step 2. Click on it again to overcast it
Step 3. Select any non single entity enemy and watch them get obliterated.
Or watch a full elite unit get insta killed by a warp bomb.
Skaven OP, pls nerf
Oh man, that battle was so close with how you wiped out all of their important stuff with barely any losses, you almost didn't win. Got to love how the game dictates stuff like that.
The game counts used ammunition as a loss, and he used up a significant amount of ammo. It's a stupid but that's why he got a close victory.
20:25 "the trick to a good siege is patience"
100% and if i could add, make sure you use all your ammo and magic before throwing melee troops in, prio big beasts and top tier troops and enemy artillery if you have the means to.
Yeah as a new player myself, this was my big takeaway from this. Use your artillery to take out the towers, then use ranged to take out anything on the walls if you can, and THEN send in your melee units. Don't even try breaching the gate or send in siege towers until you've done all that, is what I'm getting.
Then I remember all my missile units fire in straight lines and I have no magic (Dwarfs) so I have to forget all that and rush the breach anyhow.
That's literally what he did, no need to add it.
28:35 Haha XD
Player: Legend please help I can't win this siege
Legend: watch me win it without taking lasting damage
Also Legend: Watch me win this battle without even breaching the gate.
Kills everything with virtually no losses...*computer* woof, that was a close one
This is a perfect example of why towers with full map coverage were a terrible design decision.
@Avatar Ang At the same time how else would they manage the scale of Warhammer's magic megacities?
@@DIEGhostfish have you ever played, Rome 2 or Attila and played a Rome/Roma Siege, That map is HUGE, I think they could have managed a Warhammer mega city.
@Avatar Ang havent u heard about mods wtf
Yeah... this whole thing looked like ultra cheese to me...
...but then again - it's a choice between this or losing half your army zerging.
@@arthasmenethil7208 Can't tell if you're trolling or not. Since when does a mod making a bad aspect of the game good mean that the original aspect it fixed was also good?
Ah sieges, an utter waste of 10-30 minutes of lifetime against a completely useless AI.
Cheesing sieges is oddly satisfying. I can't believe I never did this until seeing your channel a few months ago. Keep up the good work, cheese lord!
@@das_ollon Well recently in a Markus campaign, dark elves just kept going onto the walls (backside) while my arrows wiped them out. I kinda wish they had the intelligence to sally out in force.
Agreed, playing sieges the way the game encourages you to do (aka right click and assault walls) just doesn’t cut it. In a way doing sieges this way is more relaxing and less stressful
@@das_ollon It's considered cheese because the enemies don't sally out even though they have the advantage.
@@das_ollon It's cheese because it's taking advantage of how the AI works. Any normal halfway intelligent person would either pull their forces back or sally out if they saw their opponent using just ranged/casting troops. The AI not only leaves its troops on the walls even under artillery fire, but it also replaces lost forward troops with its reserves.
@@das_ollon Nahh its total massive cheese just no one cares because the sieges suck anyway.
Legendoftotalwar fixes the siege of Stalingrad
I remember back in the good old days of rome 1. Use towers on the wall, capture gate house, throw all cavarly into the city, gg.
i love that game
to be fair, i've used a similar tactic a few times as scaven in WH2, i position my main army on the opposite side of reinforcing army (skavenslaves). use careful shots using my main, and then rush with reinforcements to the walls to overwhelm ranged enemy units, then rush walls with main, didn't even bother with destroying towers, just used artillery to soften up melee wall defenders, worked like a charm so far every time
Troy: we need to build a trojan horse to enter the enemy city.
Legends: enter the enemy city? No we don't do that here
853k, how to not lose a siege, actually spend money on your armies.
Has 56k income, still runs around with all basic armies...
@@momentarylapse1362 Well, it takes a long time to run your armies all the way back to your recruitment area.
@@chriswhinery925 except he's a dark elf, he can recruit from the black ark
When someone rushs into their enemy's fortified settlement, I always hear the garrison sing:
,,Win the battle, lose the war,
Choice of evils lie before for your feet
Retreat! retreat! reteat!"
(Let's see how many still know this song ^^)
What's the title?
@@janpiorko3809 Towers of the Teeth from an old lotr cartoon
"You are standing in the eye of the storm!
Move an inch, and you'll be dead!"
"You are standing underneath
The towers of the teeth
And the eye Blazes Red!"
I have played hundreds of hours and just now know of overcasting haha.
Just putting Morathi and the Hag into control groups would've surely helped your micro immensely for the early tower dodging.
It’s even worse than that. He surely would’ve finished the whole battle with no damage if he had only used the Scarecrow Banner.
@@JB-xl2jc wait, the scarecrow banner effects the whole map?
Seras Lilith It applies a -100 leadership debuff to all enemy units map wide. Also, I am lying.
@@JB-xl2jc Everybody knows that lizards are deathly afraid of scarecrows. It's just common sense.
Really liked how in this video you explained more than usual why you're doing what you're doing. Really helps a noob like me who just got the game and was struggling with exactly these kinds of sieges.
If you just got the game you really shouldn't be playing on this difficulty. Melee units have basically no use on that difficulty level and so it really changes how you would do the battle. He also got pretty lucky here with placement of the monsters all being pretty close to the wall. It would be common for the computers to leave a large force in the central square and he never would have been able to get to them. Basically very hard/legendary difficulty are broken and are really just a kind goofy alternate game mode that should really just be called "ranged only."
cheese smorgasbord! :-)
But this is how seige was fought in real life except the ai is not smart enough to use artillery and archers or take cover close to the wall
The best siege scenario I found was Ikit Claw with endless drums (ammo regen on ratlin gunners). You got the ideal artillery to create pockets in their walls, and then the gunners don't need to be efficient to whittle the army down.
This. This is the video that saved my 150 turn Ikit Claw campaign. I was simply inexperienced that I thought all sieges should be fought on walls..y'know the traditional way.
Needless to say countless Stormvermin and Plague Monks have died before taking the walls and the gate so that weapons teams would move in, and I would have only 3 Plagueclaws. To take care of their mortar or trebuchet or what-have-you. Not to mention 2 turns of siege tower building.
But now? I just send in a plague monk beforehand to damage walls, open up breaches. And then send in the army which is now almost fully ranged. Catapults take out their ranged units, then weapons teams move in to shoot through the breaches. Even the toughest settlements taken with zero losses.
So thanks,Legend. As always, love your content.
After watching so many sieges on the livestream, I knew exactly how this one was going down
Thank you legend...I have always wondered if the single or the multi-shot was better on those bolt throwers but never wanted to test it because lazy, but I listen to you play at work and pick up what you say more than see it. Good stuff man.
Single is meant to snipe large targets down while multi is meant for groups. One isn't better than the other, they are just used for different situations.
@@shadowscall7758 I was kinda talking about for towers although I did not say that so my bad. I meant which was better for taking out towers in big city sieges.
You’re point on the minute things done changes how the AI reacts is spot on. Often I find trying emulate how you bait the archers, i wind up getting to close with a flying unit and the entire army decides to charge in.
I still love how when addressing the enemy it is 2 armies plus our favorite mummified toad who is an army himself
“Let’em total war here today” “we are besieging hicks waddel “ captions
Never change your outro
Man thanks for this video. After seeing it and training a little bit, I enjoy the siege battles again
The victory types are so broken. I've gotten pyrrhic victories with 0 losses.
It's based on relative HP damage taken so if you have like he did several heroes and big single entities which took damage it's relatively a 'close' victory. Same can happen in other experiences too.
Its dumb. Apparently it's the difference in Balance of Power, which is affected by ammunition. So the more ammo you use, the lower your victory type trends
Why didn't i think of this!? Thank you dude! Iv'e been intimidated by sieges and usually auto resolve lol, the results are usually mixed. Almost always have to bring in a couple global recruits though to continue pushing on the enemy.
This helps a lot.
The real power of dark magic is power of darkness imo. Its literally the equivalent of 4 arcane conduits at once which lets you spam spells quickly. The only other good spell is soul stealer in certain situations (particularly if its a black dragon lord). But by having an extreme WOM recharge mage as a supreme sorceress lord, you can make room for a secondary caster such as fire or shadows for vortex damage vs infantry.
Chillwind is a foot speed debuff spell if you're building range centric Armies the -24 to speed on anything it touches for non overcast is good enough to put infantry to crawl speed. The overcast -48 to speed debuff is enough to put cavalry to crawl speed. It's single best field support spell for Armies already proficient for sieges.
My Malekith Stacks has darkshards and reaper bolt throwers without any line holders because it's unnecessary if you can slow 3-4 of the Ais units they will lag behind if you slow other units as well you can pretty much have half the enemy army falling behind.
This doesn't get overwhelmed either by enemy having full 2 stacks with simple corner camping.
All that it takes for chillwind to shine is to recognize which units are fast to fast for range units to shoot down.
datuputi777 chillwind deals a lot of damage too. It does take 2-3 casts before you start getting kills but i’m quite confident it can deal over 2.5k damage if you align it perfectly
Overcast Doombolt can almost one shot Doomwheel, which might be hard to pin down in field battle due to the animation.
Tun J doombolt isn’t worth it when the same nation as fiery bolts aka the single entity killer.
@@adam_somada4266
It's not a damage dealer spell more so on intended unit scale and higher(which is max).
All about the angles: LoTW the Hanzo of WHTW.
Scatter! Simple Geometry!
dead game lul
I've noticed recently when I angle dragon breath attacks as you did they do nowhere near as much damage as they used to. Or I'm going mad.
Hah, that was a nice and really enjoyable one for the end of the day to just sit back and watch some beautiful cheesing to happen. Surely the cheese god himself is pleased!
I learnt more watching this than playing dozens of sieges by myself.
Do bolt throwers do more damage on towers with the multi-shot over the single shot?
Edit: Never mind - 8:18
I only learnt this yesterday but the difference is huge. Literally hundreds of hours playing HE and I never noticed tho😂
I used single bolts for a large time because the numbers were similar total, but because there's no spread I assumed there would be more damage missed then if it was spread out
Talking about patience
@@calebbarnhouse496 Yeah, if I had to guess, that is the reason.
Very similar to a seige that’s kicking my arse right now. Lizards defending with similar composition, I’m attacking with Noctilus and a lot of Necrofex, supporting army full of gunnery mobs, promethians, 2 carronades, queen bess and 2 mortars plus a gunnery wight. How do you do the siege without the archers’ ability to snipe stuff over walls?
So here's my question. How do you do this with races that don't have arrows? i.e. vampire courts?
hey, legend. Could you do videos to show what is the army choice for different races and how to use them?
I remember tying to cheese a siege in Shogun: Total War when I first played it. It failed miserably. I kept all of my army outside the walls, out of the enemy's range, and infiltrated the castle with a bunch of shinobi/ninja squads that could climb the walls.
They didn't last long when they stepped into the capture zone lmao
Hi Legend I would like to know what are your System specs like used CPU and GPU? Thanks!
flock of doom is a reasonable slow DoT, a bit like the grey magic miasma, putting them both in the same area can work wonders.
i only found this out when the AI gave me an amber wizard early in an empire campaign.
Okay, but what do you do when the enemy has decent archer units on the walls, the map doesn't have a blind spot in the towers' fields of fire for you to put your army in, and you don't have a ton of artillery?
As lizardmen I like to bring 3-4 stegodon units and a couple carnosaurs, dread saurian, feral stegodon. I use the stegodon ranged to punch holes in walls. Then I run some salamander packs up to barrage archers covering my monsters charging in the walls. Now that the enemy isn't plugging the walls my infantry goes in. Then some horned ones rush through to charge their archers deeper in the city
How do you siege with skaven? since the most dps ranged units the ratling guns shoot straight and kinda suck at shooting over walls =/ poison wind mortars?
Mortars are the best for sieges, yes.
Thanks for the tips, help me to reduce my casualty on siege. Any tips to counter the enemies if they have artilleries inside their base
great video. i'd love to see some other videos on siege guides for other factions! this strategy works well for a faction with magic and/or arcing missiles, but how would you approach this same fight with dwarves or vampire counts?
Dwarves have their crossbows which can shoot over walls. Also grudge throwers to some extent. Dwarves might actually be better at this than dark elves. Their artillery would certainly clear the towers faster. Vampire Counts though would have no hope at all on this difficulty. Actually being a melee only faction, I don't imagine even it's really viable to play undead at all at that difficulty. Just another way the higher difficulties in this game are broken and not worthwhile.
Love the game but my graphics is and game settings don’t save between opening the game. Shadowplay optimising is off and I set all my game files to NOT read only. Settings still don’t save. Any help?
Had the same problem, solved it. Do you have a nvdia gforce ? If yes, launch geforce experience, go to settings, then games, then tick off the bock wich correspond tosomething like ''optimal settings for game'' and it should be okay.
Now i want to see you using a Lizardmen army to siege the dark elfs!
Thanks a lot Legend, I've become so much better at sieges/assaults thanks to your vids !!
Is army loss penalty based on number of units lost or value?
Guys, what is the difference between the high elven dragon roster and the dark elf black dragon in general? I know BD is smaller, but is he worse?
Can Dwarf archers do the over the wall stuff too? Seems like Quarrelers and Thunderers have little to no arcs. Haven't played around with the rangers but I might seeing how this is done.
Quarrelers can if I remember right, but Thunderers would have to go on the walls, just clear them off and once nothing can get on the walls anymore (ie all the enemy infantry is dead) and only units that can't go on walls are left, then move the thunderers up to shoot them from the top of the wall. Also, grudgethrowers can throw over the wall. You could also just secure a section of wall, put melee on both ends to protect Thunderers and put them between to shoot down if they have a ton of infantry.
another thing is that if you have movement you can attack multiply times in your turn you just need to break then re seige and you can attack again. I do it in empire if all I have is a motor to kill towers. This only works if you get a draw as a outcome. If you get a win you can just chose to settle or not.
Sounds pretty cheesy
This is the exact video I've been looking for.
Pleasure never stops
Question: if you have to siege a walled settlement without anything that can take out towers (early Empire, only arty is mortars) what's your favorite cheese/way to do things?
Hug a side, use heroes to draw tower fire and then use a million archers/crossbows
Good to know about the multishot versus towers.
Was happy seen' this alongside my vampire counts friends
How to not suck at a siege: "Super easy" *CLICKS THOUSANDS OF TIMES ON MICROMANAGING TWO TINY UNITS*
how would you go about a siege similar to this if you were playing a faction like Norsca in the early game and therefore don't have artillery or archers?
On very hard or legendary difficulty you basically couldn't even play Norsca because they have literally no good ranged units. Maybe a mammoth spam army but good luck getting to that tier. The harder difficulties in this game are actually game breaking really.
On less broken difficulty levels Norsca is great at sieges because their powerful infantry and high mass monsters push easily through gates and wall breaches.
LegendofTotalEducation
Granted I haven't been playing for that long but I had no idea you could juke and jive long range artillery like that. I thought it basically snap-shot the positional states when firing and everything else was just for show. It feels like my doomwheels take damage from archers regardless of how I move them.
just nice, thanks for this Video and the demonstrate of strategy
So it seems that the real key to sieges is having ranged units that can fire in an arc and wizards
the name of the settlement garrision veelste koud is litteraly dutch for (way too cold)
Thank you for the master class on siege warfare.
Target units at MAX distance to increase the arc. Good shit, half an hour well spent.
Can you show more sieges as different races, and specially against skaven and their bullshit artillery and warp bombs (new to the game and sieges are relatively hard for me personally)
I was like, how is this a disaster?
But then I realize not everyone has seen your early WH1 dwarf campaigns. My god was that some fuckin' cheese.
Quarrelers are still my favorite unit.
lol any tips on doing this as the vampire coast with a similar tier army? their lack of "Archers" is quite frustrating early to upper mid game.
With the vampire coast you have a massive amount of siege units, bloated corpses, cannonades, Morters,, queen bess, all of which are available quite early, allowing you to honestly just blast the towers down and smash open a hole in the wall to advance in, or with corpses and morters massively punishing stacked units, morters are also quite good for chewing up units on the walls, later game you can get access to carnifex colossus which are basically a cannonade mixed with a giant, great smashing a wall down. Or literally blowing the wall open, unlike most other faction this is how you want to proceed with vampire coast in offensive sieges, as most of there army lack enough armor to survive pretty much any kind of archers on the wall as you advance, and a lot of towers can heavily chew though your units unless you take them out, which the coast can reliably do unlike a lot of other factions,
Mortars are your best friend for sieges.
@6:16 The moment Legend realises the towers don't reach all the way to the back of the map and he only ever had to distract one tower and Morathi need never have taken any damage (technically if the initial army had been really packed together nothing ever needed to come within range of a tower).
I am pretty sure siege map size varies. I think on most maps towers can shoot right to the back.
I've been using the big bolts on towers for so long!
elm I personally find it quite silly that it doesn’t do more damage.
Nice trick. I will try this out tonight.
What do i do when i play VC they have no artillery and min range?
Use your magic.
how to win siege:
1. get two stacks of savage orcs
2. immeaditely charge all the walls
3. BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD SKULL FOR THE SKULLTHROD
your wall is the 12th man
land dragon on wall. laugh in dead bodys.
Wish i had FPS like this in big battles
1. Install a mod that limits tower range
2. Pummel them with artillery, forcing them to sally out the gates.
The ottoman empire spent over 20 years besieging a Venetian city in the C17th.
I'm not sure what the player did differently to you or what I've done differently in the past but I have played sieges where the move their large units to the capture box. Not had one I couldn't win yet but it does make it significantly harder when you're unable to pick off their large units
They reposition their army based on how you've positioned yours. If you're not getting a good layout, just move your army back and forth and see if you can trick them.
Was always not sure about Dark Shards vs Shades , like shades are a higher tier unit but with less models and cost more. But I am gonna try replacing shards with shades and see how it goes (probably was just too lazy to build the shades building)
Their damage output is similar, but they have much longer range that can be buffed into the stratosphere with red line buffs. Second best archer unit in the game after waywatchers.
Shades also have the advantage of being good in melee, so you don't need as many troops holding the line
shades have vanguard position which is really helpful if you need artillery taken out early and high speed means they can dip out faster than my father.
Wow I never thought of playing a siege like that b4 gotta try that out
Could you do more guides?
The name of the other lizardman army was veelte'koud - veel te koud in dutch means way too cold
amusingly enough I find the tower targeting MORE accurate when you move than when you don't. I just put my heroes in front of the tower to be targeted and they never get hit more than once or twice.
It would be interesting to flip this and have the Lizard men attacking.
How to cheese if walls were stuffed with say for example, high elf archers?
Waste the ammo of the archers after destroying the towers.
What happens if you are attacking an enemy with longer range than you?
Waste the ammo of those missile units.
How would you recommend sieging without arrows? specifically skaven, with all the glory of the ratling gunners and the jazzailers, they're worthless when it comes to taking down castles like that...
Although i found the poison wind mortar is pretty good for that, but is that all the skaven have?
plague claw catapults are very good for sieges! If you look at the recent series he did on clan pestilens you can see how Legend sieges as skaven.
@@jessvanlaar yeah but against 2 armies or more? they just run out of ammo and they can't deal with big beasts etc
@@Tricko42If you are up to hell pit abominations you can use them to clean up after killing infantry with siege. If not, it's a bit more tricky.. You can try luring big beasts in front of breaches so you can use ratling gunners and/or jezzails. If you simply cannot do enough damage, you will have to try and lure the enemy out from their defences. Think of having a strong army in ambush stance, while baiting with a weak stack (in force march). Again; the recent series Legend did with clan Pestilens is a great reference for these tacticks being used.
@@Tricko42 Shot some holes in the wall. Lure the computer infront of those holes and shoot through them.
Also casting plague on walled units usually works great
Flock of Doom is not bad against blobs, it's actually rather WoM efficient when you catch 3+ infantry units inside the radius. It's an option if you don't have armour piercing vortices/winds, like here.
What happens if you besiege a settlement and don't have a high level flying wizard?
Dude what the hell flock of doom would have been great against their massed troops just sitting there. You can cast it on units as well so even if they move it follows them and damages stuff they run past. Also this reminds me of Rome 2 , sitting and waiting for my Cretan archers sweep everything off the walls.
Man it's like a Shogun 2 siege battle.