Just a normal conversation before each battle Legend fights: "Hey, Rob, which regiment you are in?" - Bowmen Jenkins "In a melee unit" - Spearmen Rob "Well mate... was nice to know you." - Bowmen Jenkins
It's funny how infranty at walls just let the attackers to climb up to the walls, stand up, shake the dust away and only after then fight them. Could they like, use the advantage somehow? Maybe even pee on them while they climb?
Infantry with pole weapons should have a chance with each attack to be able to stab/push attackers off the walls and let them plummet to their deaths >:D
funny how they don't know how to build ramps for the monsters to stay on top of the wall either. If your melee is strong enough, you can tell your solddiers to climb the wall, kill all their infantry and archers, and all the rest of the army just watch and take army loss penalty. If not you put archers on their walls and shoot their cavalry with no way for them to fight back.
One of the best WH2 turtial videos ever made. Absolutely recommend this for CA to put this up on their site. Explains the core aspects of the game in a real battle scenario.
Sieges are being reworked for Game 3 Walls should provide buffs for the units on it, reducing incoming range damage while increasing the range and damage of their own range weapons
The only time I've had an obvious advantage in holding the walls was when I was facing a single army consisting of a 18 chariots, a lord on a chariot and 1 squad of weak melee infantry manning a ram. I used all my ranged firepower to crush the infantry as they tried to push the ram into place and once they were gone, I just used the towers to take out the chariots as the AI stood around trying to figure out what to do next. Might have been WH1 though.
Intermixing melee and ranged is a tried and true formation. The Spanish used it to great effect with their Tercios. A unit pikes and arquebus, the pikes would hold the opposing infantry and the arquebus would shoot them.
@@christiandauz3742 In Westeros you just charge in with your cavalry, without any support what so ever. The infantry stands in front of the walls so the enemy can slay them down easily and fast. Whatever you do, dont start to put something on the walls before you are guaranteed to lose them. Dont use the towers whatsoever, cause this would be to easy. When they bring a dragon, just send your best hero to it and scream at it. When you have dragons just fly around and scout the map instead of using them to fight. When you have a sorcerer you shouldn't use him at all. Except to buff your cavalry right before you sacrifice it. When they almost caught the victory point and everybody is dead, jump with an assasin from outof nowhere and kill the enemy lord. Everything will explode, you will win and everything will respawn instantly.
@@christiandauz3742 If this game had shit like murder holes and boiling oil it would be true here too! Imagine if you could put a unit of crossbowmen inside the walls, shooting through the holes. I can see why CA didn't do that, it would be a bitch to micro units into the lower floors to kill them. Though it might be partly to do with the kind of fortifications CA depicts in settlements tended to be built in a time of cavalry focused armies, if all of your enemy's best units are knights damn right you'd want to hold the walls or at least the gate.
I don't think I've bothered trying to hold the walls on any Total War for years. Even on Medieval 2 my entire strategy was based around letting them in and then never letting them back out. I've destroyed hundreds of numerically superior armies just by letting the AI get inside, and then massacring them as they push towards the centre. Holding the walls is pointless and screws you over, and it's a joy seeing Legend (a vastly superior player than I) preach the gospel of "Murder the fuckers in the streets". Save for the Skaven of course. They have to be contrary with their amazing towers and their shite garrisons.
I would love to see a video comparing the hold the walls versus not hold the walls, same armies, same settlement, just to show how much worse it is to try to hold the walls in terms of damage taken.
i rly liked this vid, some good explinations on tactics though it would be nice to se some obsucure ones maybe some defeat in detail ones havent seen that to much.
Infantry in siege can be nuts if used by AI. For me, the most epic siege I've ever done was a 2 v 4, I was playing as settra, with full army of tomb guards, archers, some ushabtis and the warsphinx and the tier 5 garrison of galbaraz against 4 top tier dwarf stacks, with grombrindal and thorgrim as LL. I still don't know how I managed to win that but basically I forced the enemy to fight in 3 fronts, the 3 gates. One was defended by all the elite infantry units and all the experienced archers, that was the wall that was attacked by their siege towers, another gate was defended by the low tier infantry, the low rank archers and some monsters, and the last gate was guarded by the sphinx, the hierotitan and the necrosphinx. Settra was rotating between every front. I also had some temple guards defending the walls. I basically won by spamming helm of discord and debuffing the dwarves with magic to a point where their attack and defense was below 10 points, so a single temple guard could fight 3 units of ironbreakers at once and win. In the end my army was a bunch of surviving temple guards, some archers with no ammo, 4 ushabtis, and the 3 big monsters with 1k hitpoints against all their artillery. I had to wait till they got into the city to kill them cause I couldn't fight outside of the walls. Also settra died after 1k kills. It was the most insane battle I've ever done
Last TW game I ever played was MTW2 and you could have been talking about that game when you said walls were useless and archers suck firing up or down from their level. Maybe I haven't missed much in the development of basic mechanics. Thanks for the vid.
I can never tell how I would feel about being a soldier in one of Legend's armies. One day you're fighting and beating the enemy with 100 kills for every lost man, and the next the lives of every spearman is sacrificial in the name of conserving ammunition.
Great video explaining the combat in total war, I don't mind people cheesing, we play the game how we want, and honestly, if you want to play loreful you have to play in normal or maybe hard, otherwise is just suffering, I tend to play in normal because I just love the models of some underperforming units and also I play with caps.
HE already have singleplayer balance in their garrisons by not having access to them in major settlements until Tier 3, and having to pay higher tier prices for same-tier units. They've also got the problem where the tier 5 garrisons are in some ways worse than tier 4.
Why do you hope they get a change to their garrisons? They're already extremely strong, and they already dominate the campaign map under AI control. Either way, they won't. We just got a high elf update last month, the chances of getting another before warhammer 3 comes out are very slim.
One tactic I've used to utilize the walls, more so the gates is you can make incredibly effective killboxes with a similar idea of what legend is doing here. If I see a gate is going to go down, and the situation doesn't look like one where the walls will be utterly overrun, I'll leave a hero, and a unit of spearmen and make a full box of archers around the gate itself, so as things burst through, they'll get stuck engaging the spearmen and hero, while all the archers get a free line of sight to grind them down as they come through. It's situational, but when applicable, it's been super effective for mowing down high threat melee units. You can also use a hero to walk through the gate as things are hitting it, opening the door and letting them in to be mowed down. Bonus meme tip. :)
I've only seen, like, seven of these disaster battles but so far in each and every one of them your main strategy seems to be "just shoot them to death."
A lot of the time, especially with melee heavy armies and especially vs Chaos, I actually find it beneficial to control large armies in siege battles and it's for a simple reason really. You get more value out of your magic. The AI will slam all of their infantry into the streets and it makes it easier for you to get max damage out of your magic, this is especially useful if have a lower level Mage that doesn't have Arcane Torrent. Something to consider. Sometimes it's better in a siege to control large army, and sometimes not. It all depends on the situation.
So I just watched a video of someone beating grom on the vortex campaign on turn one by using the power of the cheese god so yea legend I think you have been beaten
This tactic can be improved: if you place spearmen on the streets at an angle of 45 degrees (or so) relatively straight, then the enemy entering the battle will receive shots from the side, more soldiers will be in the scatter ellipse, and spearmen will take less damage from their archers. Just as soon as the enemy is put to flight, towers can be occupied to inflict maximum losses.
I disagree on walls. For some armies they are fantastic for forcing favourable engagements. As a lizaredmn player, the typical way saurus warriors lose combat is through outnumbered. The walls are great for forcing 1v1s where your unit is certain not to be interrupted and can safely stomp lesser units, negating numbers and deny units like monsters and cav from contributing fully. Also works as attackers, where you can force fights you are guaranteed to win. So walls are extremely important to consider and use
They need murder holes, arrow slits, machicolations, death traps and so on in their castle sieges. It would make invading a castle much harder but that was the point.
I miss medieval 2 type battles. Back then; if you brought 80% archers, you’d lose, simple as that. Everything was just slower. Infantry and cavalry were far more valuable because archers had pretty shit accuracy most of the time
mmh this is how I always did and I actually thought it was a bit cheesy, even more in maps when the cp have doesnt have backdoors so you need to hold only the front Still I would never be able to manage this without pausescumming like the newb I am
I usually put 2-3 squads on walls and retreat as soon as enemy reaches the wall. Even with shite towers it usually means around 100 free kills or so, depending on who is attacking.
I think the issue with wall defence is that the units on the wall don't try to push down ladders severely slowing the enemy army's ascent. If they did, not only would walls be much better, the seige towers will have be better as well. For now, they are simply giant shields you roll around.
I really liked this one. Very educational. You should discuss some mistakes people do in your videos more often. Like how to not fight a battle in each situation that you show us
Putting your units on walls is fine, you just have to make sure enemy units are fighting as few fighters at a time as possible while being as exposed as possible on top of the wall by for example having your melee units spread out in a thin line and barely touching the enemy seige tower on one side. Also placing archers at a good distance can make them either shoot overhead arrows or simply having a good angle to shoot at the wall with so that arrows don't get obstructed by walls. So either put archers close enough for overheads or far enough that the angle is perfect for arrows to fall right on top of exposed enemy backs (shooting archers in an X pattern). On top of that a lot more optimal strategy if you do fight at the back of the map is to put melee units into as thin (vertically) and long lines as possible along 1 side of the corridors (choke point paths to the city center). This would make all AI melee blobs fight like 3 of your soldiers at a time while your archers can pound them with a clear LOS in the flank without even shooting near your own unit.
LOL And I thought not controlling the large army was considered cheating, for the exact reason you explained... I uncheck the box only if I want or need to stagger the enemy army for any cheesy reason :D I just love how the fronts clash with as many models as possible. It's the only reason why I play this game. Although every fight against Skaven let me say "Whew, thats a lotta rats", my carnosaur charging headlong makes up for it.
It's just my opinion but I think all factions with access to Artillery should get some starting from tier 3 garrisons Looking at Greenskin and High Elf, Dark Elf Garrisons just one piece of artillery would help the garrisons of minor settlements defend their cities better
I think you abandon the walls too early just to save a few crappy garrison spear units. you could get a lot of value by sacrificing 2-3 to hold key towers. Its actually usually be worth it to fight on the walls with a few disposable units, especially if you have some tough melee units in the garrison that will hold out for a long time. This allows you to get a lot of free damage on the enemy from towers while they sit there waiting for their ram or artillery to break the gate. Also if the ai has archers they will waste a lot of ammo shooting up at units on the walls inefficiently, rather than hurting you more in the streets. Since garrison units are free it doesn't matter if they die, so put them up on the towers. The ai also splits its forces and sit outside the walls for much longer if you don't just abandon the walls.
In U.S. military doctrine, the Army's job is to hold ground while the air force and navy do the damage. Legend is just thinking like a modern tactician.
True army holds territory. Navy and airforce clear new territory. Special forces and marines take new territory. Specialize branches but with interchangeable flexible forces in each. The us military learned alot from histories most professional armies. Ancient rome and colonial Britain stand out as examples.
Could we see one of these, but with an army that isnt ranged heavy. Like say Vampire Counts. I see loads of videos of you doing High Elves, it would be really interesting to see you do it with an army with no or limited ranged.
Can't speak for him but I'd have it so that large settlements can have multiple layers of walls like real castles and how they did it in older games as well as having multiple different type of buildable siege equipment, for example a good one would be wooden shields on wheels that you could use to get close to the walls without being shot to pieces, and ladders should be something you need to buy and carry to the walls rather then materialize on every unit and even then it should be hard to actually for a beachhead with it. After all what happens with a ladder? You're climbing up and then you jump alone into the middle the enemy and have to survive long enough for the next guy to get up. It should be the most casualty intensive way to get on the wall, though also the cheapest, meaning that siege engines where you can actually form the beach head due to the force that attacks all at once is much more valuable. The defender should get similar ability to prepare defenses, from blockades in the road to stall enemy troop movements to preparing rocks to throw off the wall or other things of that nature to even small siege engines that could be mounted on the walls. Archers on walls should have an advantage, both with cover from the wall itself and probably range. Also you could have 'caches' of ammunition that are consumed before the ones carried by the unit themselves. Sieges are messy, bloody, and fortifications should provide significant advantages to the defender, but I suppose that's not 'gamey' enough for Total War.
Skaven holding walls? I just funnel my enemies into tunnels full of ratlin gunners or warp fire throwers. (though the gunners are really good and especially as skryre with their range and endless ammo. The warp fire throwers do more damage per volley and are really good at choke points since there's little range to begin with.) A lovely tactic I like, is, whenever there's a long corridor with a turn towards the town center, I put a unite of jezzails on the end and a unit of warp fire in the corner. So if the enemy actually got to reach the jezzails they would burn in unholy warpflame. Where the lack of range is absolutely meaningless.
What about stacking archers on the walls and use blobs of infantry units on the enemy's side of the wall to pack them up and make easy targets ? That way you have the archery power AND get to keep the towers to dps. Especially with fire weapons or crossbows which can't shoot in a great arc above friendly infantry like bows.
I think you don't necessarily need to deny reinforcement in siege defence, since enemy will never gather their forces but always come in waves in siege battle. While the more archers you have to shoot at them at the same time, the easier to break them.
honestly this is the single most stupid thing the ai does.. I just watched his 4 days eltharion final battle video and it's ridiculous how the AI at best sends 6 units at a time often only 2 sometimes even a single one as well as just suiciding their heroes and lords at siege defense I kind of understand that the AI does wonky split ups because they probaly wouldn't be able to defend the victory point otherwise at all, but as attackers they should either send all forces to save the victory point or all forces to destroy resistances
Brohvakiin Dova Yep. The Ai is best on the field and worst in sieges. I’ve beaten the Ai with just a tier 5 garrison against 4 full stacks because they just fuck around to much. It’s roughly towards the end as I’m running on fumes but if the didn’t come at me in waves the battle would’ve been over in minutes.
Someone will probably still say that Legend used cheese in this battle by not leaving all the archers on the walls and by not going toe-to-toe with their melee infantry.
He does actually have a top 5 best lores of magic. I don’t remember them all of the top of my head (this is based in single player btw), but I remember light, fire, and vampire were the 3rd, 2nd, and 1st respectively. Wind of death from the lore of vampires shredding 100’s if not 1000’s in a single cast.
serious question as I'm not that experienced in all the different flavours of cheese what kind of cheese could you apply in this situation with these units? edit: pls only goud-advice or I'll cheddar tear (not sorry for bad puns)
As he said, just don't control large army. His reinforcement are stronger than the garnison so there is no good reason to allow them to have it. You move to a somehow advantageous 20 vs 20 units with a lot of archer that will erase their troups, to a 25-27 vs 35-40 units, where you are heavily outnumbered. It's still manageable, as he showed but it's a useless artificial difficulty. But not controlling large army, you will also be able to shred their first army, so when the reinforcement show up, they will already have nearly lost the battle. In some situation, you can win the battle BEFORE all reinforcements are here. Last advantage, reinforcements will show up when a unit is wipe out or retreated. So they will come one by one. You will have to fight longer, but fewer units at the time.
But if you do try and fight on walls, take your melee lords and heroes off their horse; put them on there. Heroes and Lords are nigh untouchable on walls due to awkward movement and less surrounds there. Belegar and his Ancestors, Repanse on foot with Henri fom the air, Isabella with a bunch of vampires...Bloody fucking Grimgor.. They will murder anything that dares a ladder. Also, flying monsters [and cav and so on] perform way better on walls than anywhere else.
I can already guess why you would want to fight 2 armies in an siege. Magic That is the reason because a single spell could wipe out so many units if they just cram into one small spot.
Too ad in the coming total war games's sieges. Moates, gathouses machiculations and layers upon layers of defensive chokepoints. Shrink the garrisons to balance it out but for heavens sake make the walls actually usefull!
I dunno, not defending the walls while still putting a few units on them initially for towers and boxing up the back, still has a bit of a crust on it ;)
@@dmitriyk.2890 Doesn't the final battle count as campaign completion on Eltharion's campaign? I'll admit I have not been completely through the Vortex campaign fully yet and i'm more of a mortal empires player anyway but I thought you completed the campaign on vortex once you had done the final missions unless you get a domination victory. I stand corrected though if my initial info was inaccurate. Still impressive though doing that battle on turn 4 on legendary.
I'm guessing you found out by now but for anyone else reading this. Unticking large armies means you can only have 20 units at a time in battle, instead of 40. Making it easier to deal with enemies that outnumber you because you force them to only 20 units at a time.
I came to this game pretty much directly from Medieval II and this is one of the things that bothers me about Warhammer. The fact that walls are basically a handicap for the defender.
I think you could have gotten an even clearer victory by having archers on the walls to fire a handful of volleys before retreating them to the back as the enemy gets too close. Not that it would have made a great difference, but maybe a bit. Side question: How would you have done the defense as VC? They have powerful guns, sure, but guns don't have the useful firing arc.
Thats what i do line up archer units until the ladders hit the wall then run them back to the town square... if they have the advantage of numbers anyway. If not i prefer a good ole fashioned wall fight for immersions sake.
What's better at holding front line? Spearmen or Lothern Sea Guards with shields? Sea Guards have bows so they can shoot incoming attackers and shoot at them while they retreat.
I find that they aren’t very cost effective. Just my opinion, but they aren’t good archers and they don’t hold the line as well as spearman. And they cost more than either. So my early game high elves consists of 3 spearman, noble, lord, mage (preferably fire), 3 eagle claw bolt throwers, and the rest archers. You can easily do a Lord and 19 archers but I like having a small frontline in case of cav
came for the cheese, stayed for the lessons about winning
Just a normal conversation before each battle Legend fights:
"Hey, Rob, which regiment you are in?" - Bowmen Jenkins
"In a melee unit" - Spearmen Rob
"Well mate... was nice to know you." - Bowmen Jenkins
That's life in the Warhammer universe
"Oh you're in the frontlines? I'll tell your wife you loved her. If she's not eaten before we ever get home."
spearmen is plural
its a spearman
@@WhirlwindHeatAndFlash he also said bowmen, damn grammar nazis can't even do their whole job anymore ;D
@@brohvakiindova4452 it's cause they don't get payed xD
@@verax6476 It's PAID oooh... OOOOOH
It's funny how infranty at walls just let the attackers to climb up to the walls, stand up, shake the dust away and only after then fight them. Could they like, use the advantage somehow? Maybe even pee on them while they climb?
Infantry with pole weapons should have a chance with each attack to be able to stab/push attackers off the walls and let them plummet to their deaths >:D
@@zhenoob they had that feature in rome 1. dont know why they scrapped it.
While it's not that, infantry on ladders are pretty vulnerable to bombardments, like with a black ark or a warp lightning or whatever.
throw things down? shove the ladders? no, that'd be too easy
funny how they don't know how to build ramps for the monsters to stay on top of the wall either. If your melee is strong enough, you can tell your solddiers to climb the wall, kill all their infantry and archers, and all the rest of the army just watch and take army loss penalty. If not you put archers on their walls and shoot their cavalry with no way for them to fight back.
Archers will get all the kills and spearmen will get all the casualties.
A staunch line of casualties.
So basically just what youd want
High Elf spearmen are the unsung heroes of my campaign.
Casualties of war my man
But there would be no archer kills without the spearmen
Ah yes the staunch line of spears from the proud and honourable race of high elves
I'm not lactose intolerant, but i found this remarkably informative. Thank you.
I am, but... turns our virtual cheese doesn’t trigger my allergy, turns out I like cheese.
Same. Finished multiple campaigns on very hard with different factions but still learn something in every video.
One of the best WH2 turtial videos ever made. Absolutely recommend this for CA to put this up on their site. Explains the core aspects of the game in a real battle scenario.
ah yes CA and Legend, name a better duo
@@Lardcraf Rob & Big
Nah, cuz then they would have to sacrifice their pride and admit their sieges fucking suck donkey balls and are completely 1 dimensional.
Sieges are being reworked for Game 3
Walls should provide buffs for the units on it, reducing incoming range damage while increasing the range and damage of their own range weapons
@@christiandauz3742 Better garrisons and towers would also be great. Options to slow down the approach by pouring down burning oil or something.
This must be clickbait 👀
The only time I've had an obvious advantage in holding the walls was when I was facing a single army consisting of a 18 chariots, a lord on a chariot and 1 squad of weak melee infantry manning a ram. I used all my ranged firepower to crush the infantry as they tried to push the ram into place and once they were gone, I just used the towers to take out the chariots as the AI stood around trying to figure out what to do next.
Might have been WH1 though.
Intermixing melee and ranged is a tried and true formation. The Spanish used it to great effect with their Tercios. A unit pikes and arquebus, the pikes would hold the opposing infantry and the arquebus would shoot them.
This really opened my eyes to the trappings of walls.
In Real Life, you want soldiers on the walls because they provide huge advantages
I used them to lure the enemy melee the victory point and shoot down from the walls in my very own city. But this seems even more effective.
@@christiandauz3742 In Westeros you just charge in with your cavalry, without any support what so ever. The infantry stands in front of the walls so the enemy can slay them down easily and fast.
Whatever you do, dont start to put something on the walls before you are guaranteed to lose them. Dont use the towers whatsoever, cause this would be to easy.
When they bring a dragon, just send your best hero to it and scream at it. When you have dragons just fly around and scout the map instead of using them to fight.
When you have a sorcerer you shouldn't use him at all. Except to buff your cavalry right before you sacrifice it.
When they almost caught the victory point and everybody is dead, jump with an assasin from outof nowhere and kill the enemy lord.
Everything will explode, you will win and everything will respawn instantly.
@@philippkoch662 yeah apparently all of westeros is sartosa. Just a instant respawning garrison.
@@christiandauz3742 If this game had shit like murder holes and boiling oil it would be true here too! Imagine if you could put a unit of crossbowmen inside the walls, shooting through the holes. I can see why CA didn't do that, it would be a bitch to micro units into the lower floors to kill them. Though it might be partly to do with the kind of fortifications CA depicts in settlements tended to be built in a time of cavalry focused armies, if all of your enemy's best units are knights damn right you'd want to hold the walls or at least the gate.
I don't think I've bothered trying to hold the walls on any Total War for years. Even on Medieval 2 my entire strategy was based around letting them in and then never letting them back out. I've destroyed hundreds of numerically superior armies just by letting the AI get inside, and then massacring them as they push towards the centre.
Holding the walls is pointless and screws you over, and it's a joy seeing Legend (a vastly superior player than I) preach the gospel of "Murder the fuckers in the streets".
Save for the Skaven of course. They have to be contrary with their amazing towers and their shite garrisons.
tbf amazing weapons but shit troops is basically the entire skaven playstyle
~bUt LeGeNd~ Not holding the walls IS cheese
I gotta say I played so few siege battles in Warhammer 2 I'm always surprised by how good the rams and siege towers look.
I would love to see a video comparing the hold the walls versus not hold the walls, same armies, same settlement, just to show how much worse it is to try to hold the walls in terms of damage taken.
i rly liked this vid, some good explinations on tactics though it would be nice to se some obsucure ones maybe some defeat in detail ones havent seen that to much.
Infantry in siege can be nuts if used by AI. For me, the most epic siege I've ever done was a 2 v 4, I was playing as settra, with full army of tomb guards, archers, some ushabtis and the warsphinx and the tier 5 garrison of galbaraz against 4 top tier dwarf stacks, with grombrindal and thorgrim as LL. I still don't know how I managed to win that but basically I forced the enemy to fight in 3 fronts, the 3 gates. One was defended by all the elite infantry units and all the experienced archers, that was the wall that was attacked by their siege towers, another gate was defended by the low tier infantry, the low rank archers and some monsters, and the last gate was guarded by the sphinx, the hierotitan and the necrosphinx. Settra was rotating between every front. I also had some temple guards defending the walls. I basically won by spamming helm of discord and debuffing the dwarves with magic to a point where their attack and defense was below 10 points, so a single temple guard could fight 3 units of ironbreakers at once and win. In the end my army was a bunch of surviving temple guards, some archers with no ammo, 4 ushabtis, and the 3 big monsters with 1k hitpoints against all their artillery. I had to wait till they got into the city to kill them cause I couldn't fight outside of the walls. Also settra died after 1k kills. It was the most insane battle I've ever done
Last TW game I ever played was MTW2 and you could have been talking about that game when you said walls were useless and archers suck firing up or down from their level. Maybe I haven't missed much in the development of basic mechanics. Thanks for the vid.
“They should I’m terrible here” perfect captions youtube perfect
I can never tell how I would feel about being a soldier in one of Legend's armies. One day you're fighting and beating the enemy with 100 kills for every lost man, and the next the lives of every spearman is sacrificial in the name of conserving ammunition.
I really enjoy the videos where you teach and explain a lot
Great video explaining the combat in total war, I don't mind people cheesing, we play the game how we want, and honestly, if you want to play loreful you have to play in normal or maybe hard, otherwise is just suffering, I tend to play in normal because I just love the models of some underperforming units and also I play with caps.
i hope HE got rework to their garrisons. Bretonnia got tier 4 unit on their minor settlement.
HE are so powerful in general. It makes sense to have trash garrison for them.
HE already have singleplayer balance in their garrisons by not having access to them in major settlements until Tier 3, and having to pay higher tier prices for same-tier units. They've also got the problem where the tier 5 garrisons are in some ways worse than tier 4.
ye lets buff the strongest race in campaign
Why do you hope they get a change to their garrisons? They're already extremely strong, and they already dominate the campaign map under AI control. Either way, they won't. We just got a high elf update last month, the chances of getting another before warhammer 3 comes out are very slim.
@@UnreasonableOpinions "in some ways" I think there's a solid argument for the High Elf best garrison being Tier 3.
You also have a staunch line of spears here.
Nothing better than Garrus advising how to do battle :D
One tactic I've used to utilize the walls, more so the gates is you can make incredibly effective killboxes with a similar idea of what legend is doing here. If I see a gate is going to go down, and the situation doesn't look like one where the walls will be utterly overrun, I'll leave a hero, and a unit of spearmen and make a full box of archers around the gate itself, so as things burst through, they'll get stuck engaging the spearmen and hero, while all the archers get a free line of sight to grind them down as they come through.
It's situational, but when applicable, it's been super effective for mowing down high threat melee units.
You can also use a hero to walk through the gate as things are hitting it, opening the door and letting them in to be mowed down. Bonus meme tip. :)
That settlement has the perfect layout for a good defense
Needs more cheese.
I've only seen, like, seven of these disaster battles but so far in each and every one of them your main strategy seems to be "just shoot them to death."
A lot of the time, especially with melee heavy armies and especially vs Chaos, I actually find it beneficial to control large armies in siege battles and it's for a simple reason really.
You get more value out of your magic. The AI will slam all of their infantry into the streets and it makes it easier for you to get max damage out of your magic, this is especially useful if have a lower level Mage that doesn't have Arcane Torrent.
Something to consider. Sometimes it's better in a siege to control large army, and sometimes not. It all depends on the situation.
Legend has stated your exact point many times before in past videos. It's a situational choice.
So I just watched a video of someone beating grom on the vortex campaign on turn one by using the power of the cheese god so yea legend I think you have been beaten
This tactic can be improved: if you place spearmen on the streets at an angle of 45 degrees (or so) relatively straight, then the enemy entering the battle will receive shots from the side, more soldiers will be in the scatter ellipse, and spearmen will take less damage from their archers. Just as soon as the enemy is put to flight, towers can be occupied to inflict maximum losses.
That thumbnail alone was worth the like, the rest was just bonus points
I disagree on walls.
For some armies they are fantastic for forcing favourable engagements.
As a lizaredmn player, the typical way saurus warriors lose combat is through outnumbered.
The walls are great for forcing 1v1s where your unit is certain not to be interrupted and can safely stomp lesser units, negating numbers and deny units like monsters and cav from contributing fully.
Also works as attackers, where you can force fights you are guaranteed to win.
So walls are extremely important to consider and use
They need murder holes, arrow slits, machicolations, death traps and so on in their castle sieges. It would make invading a castle much harder but that was the point.
I miss medieval 2 type battles. Back then; if you brought 80% archers, you’d lose, simple as that. Everything was just slower. Infantry and cavalry were far more valuable because archers had pretty shit accuracy most of the time
BUT I LOVE CHEESE!!!!! Where have you hidden the real Legend?
mmh this is how I always did and I actually thought it was a bit cheesy, even more in maps when the cp have doesnt have backdoors so you need to hold only the front
Still I would never be able to manage this without pausescumming like the newb I am
But Legend, real cheese does not contain lactose. Your Lactose Intolerant viewers can enjoy all the cheese.
depends on the cheese but yeah pretty much this
I usually put 2-3 squads on walls and retreat as soon as enemy reaches the wall. Even with shite towers it usually means around 100 free kills or so, depending on who is attacking.
I think the issue with wall defence is that the units on the wall don't try to push down ladders severely slowing the enemy army's ascent. If they did, not only would walls be much better, the seige towers will have be better as well. For now, they are simply giant shields you roll around.
I really liked this one. Very educational. You should discuss some mistakes people do in your videos more often. Like how to not fight a battle in each situation that you show us
Uuhhh Legend does not know that not controlling large army would have been better, what a noob...
Kappa
no one:
the captions: they should im terrible here and today
just here for a second to get that instantgaming link, in germany we say support ain`t no murder
Putting your units on walls is fine, you just have to make sure enemy units are fighting as few fighters at a time as possible while being as exposed as possible on top of the wall by for example having your melee units spread out in a thin line and barely touching the enemy seige tower on one side. Also placing archers at a good distance can make them either shoot overhead arrows or simply having a good angle to shoot at the wall with so that arrows don't get obstructed by walls. So either put archers close enough for overheads or far enough that the angle is perfect for arrows to fall right on top of exposed enemy backs (shooting archers in an X pattern). On top of that a lot more optimal strategy if you do fight at the back of the map is to put melee units into as thin (vertically) and long lines as possible along 1 side of the corridors (choke point paths to the city center). This would make all AI melee blobs fight like 3 of your soldiers at a time while your archers can pound them with a clear LOS in the flank without even shooting near your own unit.
LOL And I thought not controlling the large army was considered cheating, for the exact reason you explained... I uncheck the box only if I want or need to stagger the enemy army for any cheesy reason :D I just love how the fronts clash with as many models as possible. It's the only reason why I play this game. Although every fight against Skaven let me say "Whew, thats a lotta rats", my carnosaur charging headlong makes up for it.
ehm no cheese ? .....you used tactics and ranged units ...thats cheese
We all know the only honourable way to go about this is going full melee and charging head-on.
Preferably with your foot-lord leading the charge.
@@bobafat2082 and with staunch line of spears!
@@BenDover-qh8wy Especially if this line of spears are shieldless!
It's just my opinion but I think all factions with access to Artillery should get some starting from tier 3 garrisons Looking at Greenskin and High Elf, Dark Elf Garrisons just one piece of artillery would help the garrisons of minor settlements defend their cities better
poor Spearmen... cheese saves lives, but not today
This is the best video I have seen from you. Very very helpful!
I cant believe my eyes. Legend isnt cheesing? He finaly found his honor? Good work. Keep this up.
He even have his staunch line of spear! Disgrace to the race no longer
Is that... a staunch line of spears ? :D
I think you abandon the walls too early just to save a few crappy garrison spear units. you could get a lot of value by sacrificing 2-3 to hold key towers. Its actually usually be worth it to fight on the walls with a few disposable units, especially if you have some tough melee units in the garrison that will hold out for a long time. This allows you to get a lot of free damage on the enemy from towers while they sit there waiting for their ram or artillery to break the gate. Also if the ai has archers they will waste a lot of ammo shooting up at units on the walls inefficiently, rather than hurting you more in the streets. Since garrison units are free it doesn't matter if they die, so put them up on the towers. The ai also splits its forces and sit outside the walls for much longer if you don't just abandon the walls.
Oh he knows. He just didn’t because some people call him out saying that sacrificing troops is cheese. You just can’t please some people apparently
BUT LEGEND! You said this is Cheese free and you're not holding the Walls! That's Cheese! Honourable players always defend the Walls!
In this situation the Silverin Guard would have been much better
14:50
Save ammo, not lives.
Came for the cheese fries....left to go get some.
In U.S. military doctrine, the Army's job is to hold ground while the air force and navy do the damage. Legend is just thinking like a modern tactician.
True army holds territory. Navy and airforce clear new territory. Special forces and marines take new territory. Specialize branches but with interchangeable flexible forces in each. The us military learned alot from histories most professional armies. Ancient rome and colonial Britain stand out as examples.
Could we see one of these, but with an army that isnt ranged heavy. Like say Vampire Counts. I see loads of videos of you doing High Elves, it would be really interesting to see you do it with an army with no or limited ranged.
Great video, super informative!
Love your work Legend, keep it up champ
I guarantee you there will be people who say that not holding walls is cheese as well.
TY for the lessons. For the Algorithm!
How would you change sieges to improve them? Curious since you know so much about the game already and are really good at single player.
Can't speak for him but I'd have it so that large settlements can have multiple layers of walls like real castles and how they did it in older games as well as having multiple different type of buildable siege equipment, for example a good one would be wooden shields on wheels that you could use to get close to the walls without being shot to pieces, and ladders should be something you need to buy and carry to the walls rather then materialize on every unit and even then it should be hard to actually for a beachhead with it. After all what happens with a ladder? You're climbing up and then you jump alone into the middle the enemy and have to survive long enough for the next guy to get up. It should be the most casualty intensive way to get on the wall, though also the cheapest, meaning that siege engines where you can actually form the beach head due to the force that attacks all at once is much more valuable. The defender should get similar ability to prepare defenses, from blockades in the road to stall enemy troop movements to preparing rocks to throw off the wall or other things of that nature to even small siege engines that could be mounted on the walls. Archers on walls should have an advantage, both with cover from the wall itself and probably range. Also you could have 'caches' of ammunition that are consumed before the ones carried by the unit themselves.
Sieges are messy, bloody, and fortifications should provide significant advantages to the defender, but I suppose that's not 'gamey' enough for Total War.
almost every word that came from your mouth in this video should get covered in gold, Legend XD
Skaven holding walls?
I just funnel my enemies into tunnels full of ratlin gunners or warp fire throwers.
(though the gunners are really good and especially as skryre with their range and endless ammo. The warp fire throwers do more damage per volley and are really good at choke points since there's little range to begin with.)
A lovely tactic I like, is, whenever there's a long corridor with a turn towards the town center, I put a unite of jezzails on the end and a unit of warp fire in the corner. So if the enemy actually got to reach the jezzails they would burn in unholy warpflame. Where the lack of range is absolutely meaningless.
Yes I think legend had enough shit with the lactose intolerant people yes legend show them your true power ma lord
The title alone compels me to watch.
What about stacking archers on the walls and use blobs of infantry units on the enemy's side of the wall to pack them up and make easy targets ? That way you have the archery power AND get to keep the towers to dps.
Especially with fire weapons or crossbows which can't shoot in a great arc above friendly infantry like bows.
I think you don't necessarily need to deny reinforcement in siege defence, since enemy will never gather their forces but always come in waves in siege battle. While the more archers you have to shoot at them at the same time, the easier to break them.
honestly this is the single most stupid thing the ai does.. I just watched his 4 days eltharion final battle video and it's ridiculous how the AI at best sends 6 units at a time often only 2 sometimes even a single one as well as just suiciding their heroes and lords
at siege defense I kind of understand that the AI does wonky split ups because they probaly wouldn't be able to defend the victory point otherwise at all, but as attackers they should either send all forces to save the victory point or all forces to destroy resistances
Brohvakiin Dova Yep. The Ai is best on the field and worst in sieges. I’ve beaten the Ai with just a tier 5 garrison against 4 full stacks because they just fuck around to much. It’s roughly towards the end as I’m running on fumes but if the didn’t come at me in waves the battle would’ve been over in minutes.
A legend video with no cheese? I feel cheated lol.
Youve been cheesed
@@jforozco12 damn came to say "he cheesed your feelings"
@@brohvakiindova4452 it was low hanging fruit but I couldnt resist it xd
@@jforozco12 you don't have to justify to me I'm a low hanging fruit myself
@@brohvakiindova4452 hahahhahah what
Someone will probably still say that Legend used cheese in this battle by not leaving all the archers on the walls and by not going toe-to-toe with their melee infantry.
And you’d be right lol
I'm quite curious about a top 5 magic according to you. Primarily on damage spells, buff and debuffs are rather dependent on army builds.
He does actually have a top 5 best lores of magic. I don’t remember them all of the top of my head (this is based in single player btw), but I remember light, fire, and vampire were the 3rd, 2nd, and 1st respectively. Wind of death from the lore of vampires shredding 100’s if not 1000’s in a single cast.
serious question as I'm not that experienced in all the different flavours of cheese
what kind of cheese could you apply in this situation with these units?
edit: pls only goud-advice or I'll cheddar tear (not sorry for bad puns)
As he said, just don't control large army. His reinforcement are stronger than the garnison so there is no good reason to allow them to have it. You move to a somehow advantageous 20 vs 20 units with a lot of archer that will erase their troups, to a 25-27 vs 35-40 units, where you are heavily outnumbered. It's still manageable, as he showed but it's a useless artificial difficulty. But not controlling large army, you will also be able to shred their first army, so when the reinforcement show up, they will already have nearly lost the battle. In some situation, you can win the battle BEFORE all reinforcements are here.
Last advantage, reinforcements will show up when a unit is wipe out or retreated. So they will come one by one. You will have to fight longer, but fewer units at the time.
Legend: Defensibility 5 out of 10. Not great not terrible
But if you do try and fight on walls, take your melee lords and heroes off their horse; put them on there. Heroes and Lords are nigh untouchable on walls due to awkward movement and less surrounds there. Belegar and his Ancestors, Repanse on foot with Henri fom the air, Isabella with a bunch of vampires...Bloody fucking Grimgor.. They will murder anything that dares a ladder. Also, flying monsters [and cav and so on] perform way better on walls than anywhere else.
Very informative video, thanks Legend.
This is the big ̶c̶r̶u̶x̶ Kroxigor. Love this so much!
I can already guess why you would want to fight 2 armies in an siege.
Magic
That is the reason because a single spell could wipe out so many units if they just cram into one small spot.
Thats why having a mage at key garrisons is essential can easily turn an impossible battle into a slaughter.
How to fix Warhammer siege:
1. Remove ass ladders
Wrong.
very educative, as is the tradition
Too ad in the coming total war games's sieges. Moates, gathouses machiculations and layers upon layers of defensive chokepoints. Shrink the garrisons to balance it out but for heavens sake make the walls actually usefull!
5 melee, 13 BOWS!
This should be the newcomers guide
I dunno, not defending the walls while still putting a few units on them initially for towers and boxing up the back, still has a bit of a crust on it ;)
Bloody hell, I haven’t watched you in year mate! Glad to see you still doing videos
Give his recent Eltharion run a look. Completed the Vortex campaign on Legendary in 4 moves.
@@Will831100 not the campaign, just the final battle.
@@dmitriyk.2890
Doesn't the final battle count as campaign completion on Eltharion's campaign? I'll admit I have not been completely through the Vortex campaign fully yet and i'm more of a mortal empires player anyway but I thought you completed the campaign on vortex once you had done the final missions unless you get a domination victory. I stand corrected though if my initial info was inaccurate. Still impressive though doing that battle on turn 4 on legendary.
Finally, some good fucking content
Noob question. What is "control large armies"? And why do people consider it cheating?
I'm guessing you found out by now but for anyone else reading this. Unticking large armies means you can only have 20 units at a time in battle, instead of 40. Making it easier to deal with enemies that outnumber you because you force them to only 20 units at a time.
@@NuStiuFrate finally. It took 4 months to get an answer haha! Thank you sir!
Hey, LegendofTotalWar is it safe to buy all the wh2 DLCS once at a time from Instantgaming?
Loved that title man
where is my freeking cheezz!
Brilliant title!
I came to this game pretty much directly from Medieval II and this is one of the things that bothers me about Warhammer. The fact that walls are basically a handicap for the defender.
I think you could have gotten an even clearer victory by having archers on the walls to fire a handful of volleys before retreating them to the back as the enemy gets too close. Not that it would have made a great difference, but maybe a bit.
Side question: How would you have done the defense as VC? They have powerful guns, sure, but guns don't have the useful firing arc.
Thats what i do line up archer units until the ladders hit the wall then run them back to the town square... if they have the advantage of numbers anyway. If not i prefer a good ole fashioned wall fight for immersions sake.
The cheese is great in this one
What a massacare
What's better at holding front line? Spearmen or Lothern Sea Guards with shields? Sea Guards have bows so they can shoot incoming attackers and shoot at them while they retreat.
They do, though, they are not as cheap and have worse meelee stats/price equasion.
I find that they aren’t very cost effective. Just my opinion, but they aren’t good archers and they don’t hold the line as well as spearman. And they cost more than either. So my early game high elves consists of 3 spearman, noble, lord, mage (preferably fire), 3 eagle claw bolt throwers, and the rest archers. You can easily do a Lord and 19 archers but I like having a small frontline in case of cav
Great stuff. Learned a good deal
Fantastic video. Thank you.
Dudes turn 51 and still hasn't upgraded anything in athel Tamara yet 😐