Mormons Vs Ex Mormons: Who REALLY Won This Cringey Debate? ft.
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- Is Mormonism a cult? Jubilee’s “Middleground” had on a panel of current believing Mormons and ex-Mormons to debate this and other nuanced topics. Join us, along with one of the ex-Mormon panelists, Dr. John Dehlin of @mormonstories as we dive deeper into some of the more “cringeworthy” responses, and un-aired behind the scenes details, to decide who really won.
Check out Jublilee's "Can Mormons and Ex Mormons See Eye to Eye? | Middle Ground" video here: • Can Mormons and Ex Mor...
Watch Mormon Stories' reaction to Jubliee's video:
"Jubilee's “Mormons vs Ex-Mormons” on Middle Ground - Ex-Mormon Cast Reacts | Ep. 186"
• Jubilee's “Mormons vs ...
Check out Nuancehoe's reaction to Jublilee's video:
Mormons BOMB In Cringeworthy Debate | ExMo Jubilee Reaction
• Mormons BOMB In Cringe...
Our interview with Nuancehoe and Dillan (from this Jublilee debate) here:
ruclips.net/user/livecsvnJ7vY...
A deeper dive of Dillan’s story on Nuancehoe’s channel here: ruclips.net/user/livetRYIIyI7...
Find John Dehlin on social media!
YT @mormonstories
IG: @mormstories
/ mormstories
Our C2C vacation where we can meet you in real life and go on adventures together has 5 spots left! Click here to go to the official booking page trovatrip.com/trip/central-am...
Chapter Marks
00:00:00 Intro
00:03:28 Is Mormonism a cult?
00:12:48 Does John feel the Ex Mormon side won the entire debate?
00:23:41 Were the panelists given the prompts beforehand?
00:34:42 Is masturbation a sin?
00:37:38 Does a Mormon have to tell their bishop every time they masturbate?
00:40:07 Are women and men equal in the church?
00:52:38 Is it okay for the doctrine to change?
01:00:59 Has the Mormon church done good in the world?
01:03:38 Footage John wishes made the cut
01:09:08 Linda, listen
Support Shelise
Any donations are welcome and appreciated to support the making of this podcast
Find our FULL (uncensored) merch store here!
cults-to-consciousness-shop.f...
Patreon
/ cultstoconsciousness
Venmo @sheliseann
Find us on Social media!
Instagram @cultstoconsciousness
/ cultstoconsiousness
Host Instagram @sheliseann
/ sheliseann
Co Host Instagram @jonathan.rosales_
/ jonathan.rosales_
TikTok @cults.to.consciousness
/ cults.to.consciousness
Twitter @cultstocon
/ cultstocon
Theme Song Produced and Composed by Christian Guevara
*Disclaimer: Thanks for joining us at Cults to Consciousness. This storytelling podcast is meant to be for entertainment purposes only and does not substitute for medical advice. We may discuss triggering topics and we ask that you make your personal mental health a priority. Lastly, the opinions of our guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the host.*
Let me assure you, Cardon does NOT want the full Jubilee, uncut footage, out there for people to see. He thinks he does because he has narcissistic tendencies. It will be so much worse for him if Jubilee decides to do that.
I think he is bluffing.. hope Jubilee calls his bluff :) - No one could be that blind or narcissistic... At least I think not
It's your word vs. His. How can you assure people when you are speaking for someone else entirely. Cardon has expressed many times that Jubilee cut important parts and wants people to know the whole truth even if it hurts his position. Truth is what he is after not merely show business entertainment.
I hope they do NOT show any more footage that would enbarass Cardon. The stress and humiliation could seriously harm him considering that he is ill.
I genuinely feel sorry for him because, as John says, his position is indefensible.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 he can, because he was there and heard every single word Cardon said....
@@jacobsamuelson3181You know there's no "winning" with types like Cardon. Even if they show the whole video, it will just be: "they manipulated the video...."
I think Mormonism makes people with Carden's personality type 10 times worse.
Its what cults attract….
Yeah I think narcissists are attracted to groups that blow their ego up and back up their existing views of themselves
Agreed!! As a member who recently left the Mormon church after being raised in it… men like Carden are everywhere and THRIVE in the church. Every narcissistic man in the church I’ve known has been in a position of power and authority, including my abusive & narcissistic father. I think Carden did an excellent job at representing most LDS men who have authority in the church.
@@CottageContessa Amen!
Mormonism caters to a narcissist's inflated ego, but can't reign it in with shame and guilt. So yes, 10 times worse, if not more. See Tim Ballard.
Here's the thing about apologists: they aren't there to convince outsiders, they're there to reassure insiders/members that there is an answer, ANY answer, to criticisms from the outside.
Really good comment
Very true!
True!
Isn't that the definition of apologetics!?
Guess it depends on what religion/denomination of faith but in general yeah this is true. They are teaching followers on how to 'defend' the faith. Evangelists/missionaries are more for the outsiders.
As a never Mormon, I found Cardon to be beyond obnoxious and offensive.
same!
He is insufferable
That's just how a lot of sheltered Mormon kids end up if they get into politics. I've met so many of them, and the pattern becomes really obvious when you live with 3-5 of them at a time.
I found him so intellectual dishonest and a bit of a sealion
He was very difficult to watch
How has no one talked about the fact that if you have leukemia, the relief society will make dinner for you? The young men will mow your lawn, and the young women will probably clean your house. But if you're gay you get shunned and are shamed and dehumanized by the entire ward and stake!!!
Not if you're behind on tithing, then there' ll be no mowing of lawns or cooking and cleaning.
Exactly!
Even if you can accept the idea of being queer or having cancer as both being trials from God, you cannot deny that they are 'trials' that are treated wildly differently by the Mormon church.
If Cardon having leukemia was given the same treatment that any queer person has gotten in the church, I doubt he'd be singing it's praises
And since having cancer and being gay is the same in Cardon's eyes, people who suffer from cancer shouldn't be allowed in the temple....
And Cardon said he would still trade all that treatment so he could live 20 more years. Please tell me you are both gay and have leukemia so you don't sound like a horrible bigot right now.
Great point!!!! Ugh they missed so many opportunities to show the GOOD of the church but they just doubled down on all the exclusionary practices then gave the most ridiculous excuses. I had so much second hand embarrassment
One of the reasons I despise the Mormon church is when I was growing up in it my grandfather was not a member. He drank coffee. I remember going to visit and stay with him he would cook me a breakfast in the morning and I would wake up to the smell of folgers. I loved my grandfather immensely but always had a lingering feeling that he was bad because he drank coffee. This is man that would have done anything thing for his family, neighborhood or strangers that needed help. The Mormon church trained me to believe that my grandpa was a bad guy. The church is a toxic organization that separates family members through fear, shame and guilt. I wish my grandpa was still here so we could enjoy a cup of coffee together in the morning and just chat in front of the garage like we used to.
Thank you for sharing. My grandpa also drank coffee and my grandma would get so mad when he’d do it while we were there. I also remember thinking he was such a rebel. Such a shame that something so small could taint our opinion of someone.
@@CultstoConsciousness nothing destroys a true relationship to God and family than the hyper religiously of ignorant rules of the word of wisdom .
One of the main topics in the New Testament! between Jesus and the Pharasees.
I had similar experiences growing up with some of my family. Breaks my heart now
I'm not LDS but I'm really sorry you experienced this. I've looked into the word of wisdom and it's meant to help people stay away from the harmful effects of addiction. There is a beneficial spiritual side to not consuming harmful substances. But no one should feel ostracised because of a personal choice. I haven't seen negative things myself but I'm really sorry you have. I have LDS friends who don't care one way or the other if I have a cup of coffee. I hope you're feeling better!
Big hugs to you. This was a touching but painful comment to read. I’m so sorry, my friend. I’m sure he would love to have a cup of coffee with you and would smile fondly to know you feel this way. Cheers to your grandpa! 🤙🏽☕️☕️
I'm probably spelling it wrong but the fact that Kwaku redirected the "curse of Cain" by being like well it was really more about Native Americans...cuz somehow he thought that wasn't racist itself.......
A good friend of mine gave me a wonderful standard of divinity re: punitive gods: "I would never do anything like that to anyone and I think God is at least as nice a person as I am. "
Exactly, but we're supposed to believe that God does it because he loves us? Huh? And that this has been going on forever on countless worlds. So you're saying the entirety of the divine mind hasn't figured out a better way?
No matter what version or how it's presented to me. I can't believe in God or a god or gods. I know that faith can have a meaning for people but it's far from my perception of life. Your version at least have something to do with love.
Creating God in your own image? That's called idolatry, Silly.
@@topazblahblah god did it to us supposedly right? What was that thing.. do unto others?
The part about less overtly dangerous cults almost becoming MORE dangerous because of the ease at which they're able to fly under the radar was so incredibly validating for me to hear. I escaped an evangelical cult at 19, and even though what I went through was horrific, I'd grown up with stories of Heaven's Gate and Jonestown, and even had the JWs and Mormons used as examples of "REAL cults" to dismiss what I was going through. It took me until a few years ago to realize that what I had been in was a cult after escaping another, much more niche high-control group in my early 20s.
It reminds me of how physical abuse is often treated vs emotional/other kinds of abuse that aren't as overt. People see fundamentalist evangelicals, mormons, JWs, etc as "less bad" compared to other cults because they think they aren't as damaging. In reality, they are absolutely just as destructive as the most extreme groups, but that kind of destruction is less-than-physical so the people who haven't experienced it don't even perceive that it exists.
Couldn't agree more🎉❤
By these standards religion is bad because religion = cult here
Absolutely so excited to listen to this. I had a wonderful experience on Mormon Stories when we filmed our reaction to the Jubilee video. And I absolutely treasure my time with Shelise and Johnathan (and Carah) on From Cults to Consciousness, and Nuanceho, to share my story.
You did so good Dillan. Way to represent!
Dillan, I'm glad you still have a relationship with Christ. I hope you believe Tember does too.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 I believe in order to go through the spiritual journey that he has chosen to go through, based on his desire to find happiness in Christ, he absolutely has a relationship with Christ.
@@jacobsamuelson3181I 100% believe Tember has a relationship with Christ.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 I resent the notion that the exmos were diminishing Tember's life choices. At no point were they saying that Tember wasn't happy or didn't have a relationship with Christ.
I remember going to a mormon church with a childhood friend and it looked and felt like a court hearing lol
😂
😂😂😂
OMG that never crossed my mind but I can totally see that now lol
Lmfao!!
I went to a morman Sunday school one time when I was young. I learned a song, Book of Morman , From the dust. we would repeat but there must have more verses. I just can't remember😂❣️
As a woman who’s a 3 on the Kinsey scale and married to a man, I couldn’t imagine telling lesbian women to marry men because I like women, but my marriage to a man is great. That’s absolutely unhinged.
Thank you for your perspective!
Asexual here and I don't want to be with anyone that way. If I met an asexual man with no expectations of anything in the bedroom that could be a thing, but I would NOT want to be forced into physical intimacy. The one time I tried dating was back around 2000 and I didn't have the vocabulary or frame of reference to understand there was a difference between heteroromantic and heterosexual, and the incompatibility eventually caused the relationship to break apart. Now that I do understand I would never want to be dishonest again (though in that case it was unintentional dishonesty because I didn't know my reactions were odd). TBH if I'd lived in time where there was a lot more pressure to marry, I wonder if I'd have become a nun to get away from it!
Some things SHOULDN'T be put together to find a middle ground!!!!
Example: when I was 14, I finally told my mom that her husband was CSA me since I was 11 when she just met him. I had met him once when he kidnapped me.
Being threatened and scared, I didn't tell at first. I finally did, nothing happened.
When I was 14, I told Mom again after an especially horrible night, and she called the bishop. He called me in, sat me in a room across from the abuser and had a MIDDLE GROUND meeting, like this.
He asked me if I could try harder to get along with my stepdad, since we were a family now and why would I want to break up a family?!
And he told me I should just try harder not to get alone with him.
Writing this now, causes much pain. Still triggering.
Some things shouldn't be sat in a room to find the middle ground.
Lies vs truth is one.
Evil vs good is another.
Abuse vs victim is another
We wouldn't sit Warren Jeffs and his followers in a room with the Lost Boys to find middle ground, would we??!!
Doing this middle ground thing gives their horrible lies and abuse VALIDITY, as if it's a legitimate thing!!
IT'S NOT!!
Makes me really mad, as you can tell.
This whole show needs to stop and ask itself if it's pitting abuse victims against abusers before it does a show! Or crime victims against criminals. It's not VALID to look for middle ground every effing place you go!!!.
Exactly. It’s like saying, let’s find a middle ground between the people who believe the earth is flat and those who believe it’s round. Does that make the earth what, a cillinder? Funny thing is, the dynamic you describe is precisely the reason it’s not recommended to do couple’s therapy when there is abuse going on.
I’m also really sorry for what you went through, those idiots were so wrong and so perverse.
i’m sorry to hear that:(( ugh the church sucks, sending love and wishing peace
@@ludmilamaiolini6811 exactly. Thank you so much!
@@carlopicanco2555 thank you. I really appreciate the understanding of what I was trying to say.
@@allyson3629 thank you! 🤗
Within my extended family I know of two Mormon marriages that included a gay man marrying a woman. Both ended in divorce and all involved left the church.
The preferential treatment comment was crazy, and I loved hearing Jillian's description of "benevolent sexism" and how that's still harmful to women in John's reaction video.
The exmormons decimated the Mormons. Bella was the MVP of that side... I felt bad for her.
I think she was out of the echo chamber, and her wheels were turning.
As an 8 yr old in the Church I was shocked to find out they don't help girls get into Girl Scouts like the Church helped the boys w/scouting. It was my 1st data point to put in the 'these people have no idea what spirituality is' file.
When my daughter was that age she complained about the same thing. The boys got all the perks, while the girls got barely anything.
The perks suck, honestly. It's a lose/lose for the youth. The girls feel excluded, disenfranchised, powerless, inferior, etc. while the boys have the pressure of serving a mission looming over them and extra church chores to do, like collecting fast offerings (super awkward and uncomfortable), delivering the sacrament to stay at home members, and going home teaching. I don't have a dad, so I got stuck being the bishop's home teaching companion. It was awful. I envied the girls, but I know so many of them would have traded seats with me if they could. I don't mean to diminish the experience of the young women. I just don't think any of us benefited from the sexism of the priesthood.
@@L2Sentinel Agreed. Don't forget the c.s.a. factor, making it a complete sh*tshow contributing to Mormon generational trauma
Break the silence. Break the cycle.
The People's Temple (Jonestown) is associated with over 900 deaths - most would not be considered suicide because they were children and teens. Many of the adults were forced at gun point.
TPT was a branch of The Message, which is the cult I grew up in and it is the jumping off point for some of the most notorious cults in modern history.
What do women want? We just want to be treated with respect.
That sounds like hysterical women talk.
You also want a man who is a minimum of 6' 2", makes considerably more than you (even though you think it's unfair if a man makes more than you), and you don't want to bring anything to the relationship table because "you are the table".
Let me introduce you to another YTuber, "Hoe_Math."
@@tinman3586 If that's your view on women, you either:
A. Are extremely unlucky, and choose to generalize because you've been hurt so much.
B. You're an asshole but don't see that, so you blame all your past problems on the woman.. and whine about how they don't like nice guys.
C. You are a teenager that has been watching too much Andrew Tate.
B or C are definitely the most likely.
@@tinman3586I’m sorry you have such low quality people in your life that you believe this is true.
Damn, tinman. My coffee this morning was less bitter than your comment
I'm really fascinated by the Jubilee episode. Ward Radio was a good choice for the Mormon side, from an exMormon perspective, lol
The real WIN is when people who disagree discuss the topics, face-to-face with respect, listen with openness, instead of listening for an opening… And learn something about how the other side thinks, and feels in other words gain some empathy for the other side. More please: more face to face showing us how to discuss and disagree and learn about each other.
Cults with Consciousness would never let us talk to her face to face cause that would be too harmful for her audience who she is keeping under her thumb.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 honey are you okay? Do you need help? Cause that was...random.
@@marylamphere2112 How was it random? Cults with Consciousness won't meet us face to face as the OP suggests should be done. Do you have an issue? I'm here to talk if you need.
@@jacobsamuelson3181 Cults to Consciousness is a channel less about debates and more about giving a platform for the experiences of people who have been roped into and escaped cults and institutionalized patterns of abuse/manipulation. Even outside of the context of a "debate," Shelise does all of the things Janet (the og comment) described; she treats interviewees with respect and empathy and listens with openness and curiosity. I guess I'm confused as to what you expect to happen here? Have you asked to be interviewed or are you just complaining to complain lol?
@jacobsamuelson FYI, the correct name is Cults TO Consciousness.
The interesting thing with the “masturbation is a parking ticket” argument and how it may be less harmful but it still is, is the Jodi side of things. People who confessed to it then were sent to her and people like her. Even if it’s not always as harmful, there’s plenty of people who have probably had their lives blown up by that one confession to the bishop.
Glad you talked about the masturbation topic here too. It’s so diminishing to indicate it’s like a traffic ticket. I personally know several people who had their marriage in the temple cancelled/postponed/rujned because a bishop found out about some masturbation. There is major trauma over this issue and the church is soft walking back those doctrines in the same pattern as they have with other issues. So important and I really wish that jubilee segment wasn’t behind a paywall.
How is that even policed? Policing and reporting such a thing is extremely weird and seems a far more harmful and deviant practice.
Glad you're covering this one, and got John!
Carah's coverage of it was perfect, and hilarious!
Yeah you only got ward radio covering this on the other side because the cults are the ones who love hammering people who don't agree with their views.
Carah is amazing. I love her responses
As a born and raised atheist, cults are a tragedy, but religion itself is so damaging.
I have watched Cardon several times - gaslighting is one of his best talents.
I have watched a few different reactions to this Jubilee episode and I am unbelievably ecstatic for this one❤❤❤
I love all of these reaction/discussion videos about the Jubilee episode!
24:35 - if John’s suspicions are true and people like Cordon are being paid to be spokespeople for LDS, then I would request a refund because Cordon came across as a stereotypical angry, old white man. He absolutely did nothing to help the “Church.”
I love how thoughtful your interviews always are both on C to C and Mormon Stories. TY! ❤
Both of them are great at interviewing and being interviewing
Thank you so much! ☺️
Hope you are feeling well and thank you for all your videos as I know it must be incredibly draining. Sending love and good vibes
I get incredibly emotional about mormonism still. My mom is still in it very deep... she's turning 51 this year. I fear it's too late for her... her mother (my grandmother) immigrated from a country in Europe and then started a family in the US to practice freedom of religion and convert to mormonism. She met my grandfather at BYU and they raised many devout children , one of them being my mom. My leaving of the church caused my mom to put up a wall between us. It's been 10 years since then and the wall is still all the way up. My heart is absolutely broken. 💔💔 I miss my mom , but I could never step foot in that church again. I just want to be able to not feel like she's judging me so much...
Thank you for sharing. I’m so sorry you have to go through that. It’s never too late.
Just be nice to her. Yes, it might be too late for her, but you might be pleasantly surprised. Mormonism is collapsing.
Omg wait, I’m so excited to see the interview on the Mormon stories channel!! I’m curious to know more about Shelise’s story
🥰❤️
I've been waiting for your Mormon stories for almost a year!
So, I was raised in the Episcopal Church, and I still practice my faith. Now, I like history, and I am well aware of the problems that have existed throughout the history of the church that I belong to, from King Henry VIII leaving his first wife to die, killing his second wife, and generally just being a difficult human being, to the Episcopal Church participating in creating boarding schools for indigenous children (who often died, and definitely experienced various forms of genocide), not to mention that there is a reason that the African Methodist Episcopal Church exists (note: it's because of racism and exclusivity). That said, the Episcopal Church has never attempted to lie to me about those things, and they have done a lot of work throughout their history to own and repair the damage that past leadership has willfully caused.
The Episcopal Church was the first American church to remove the word "obey" from the marriage vows. They also take the stand that woman and man God created us, so woman and man we ordain, meaning that there are tons of women who are priests, deacons, bishops, etc. in the Episcopal Church. The Episcopal Church, more recently, has been working to minimize the use of gendered terms to refer to God, because God is not male or female. Also, as a trinitarian church (which I understand that the Mormon church, JWs, and a few others are not), the Episcopal Church has historically followed the idea that the Holy Spirit is the feminine part of the trinity. The Episcopal Church has had the blessing of same gendered unions since before the SCOTUS ruling in the US, and our current Presiding Bishop actually helped (with some other churches) to fight for the legalization of gay marriage onthe basis of religious freedom. And, when the Anglican Communion throughout the world attempted to push the Episcopal Church, said presiding Bishop, calmly responded by explaining that we are not going back on any of these choices (regarding female leadership and our acceptance of the LGBTQAIA+ community).
The Episcopal Church is not perfect, however, I greatly challenge Tember's claims that the LDS Church is doing things best, when they have not allowed women in their church the majority of what I have just listed.
You guys, plus Carah, are my new church, did you know that? :) I love you guys so much. I felt so lonely and empty after leaving, until I found these channels and people; it was what I was missing. Thank you for your work, because even though I don't need religion anymore, I need people!
Hi Sarah! You’re not alone!!❤️❤️❤️
Thanks for using the word Church. You tell that to Carah and John and they would probably throw up.
I've been waiting for your coverage on this! Hope you are feeling healthy and happy with baby on the way!
Thank you!! More tired and out of breath than usual, but doing my best to keep going till she comes!❤️
I've been there, the last few weeks are the toughest. I loved bouncing on the yoga ball to relax @@CultstoConsciousness
Always love to see the two of you in an episode.
The crossover I've been wanting!!! amazing
I cannot wait to watch your Mormon stories episode! This was such a cool colab to watch ❤
🥰🙏
Oh my husband had an affair with his secretary at work. At his excommunicated, the stake President advised me to go home, do not speak about the affair to my children, members in the branch and especially the community (small mid-west town) because i must keep the face of the church perfect since our family had for years were the perfect Mormon family.
Love the content and the collab Shelise, Jonathan, and John. I'm enjoying this after staying up late in Thailand while editing my latest.
Thank you!
Are the men afraid that to give the women the priesthood that the women would break down the crazy temple rituals, fight the abuse cover ups, etc?
And probably turn all the boys gay. The sky would fall. The oceans will rise and sun will blow up.
It’s a risky proposition.
Middle ground doesn't work if the middle is between sanity/reality and lies/insanity. Common ground can be found, sure, (an insane person can still love their family and enjoy music, for example, like we do) but trying to find MIDDLE ground with a fool will only make you a fool too.
Yes!! One of my favorite collabs!❤
Shelise, thank you so much for having John on your channel! I’ve seen so many reaction videos of the jubilee interview, and I am so excited to see a video with John himself about his experience!
Absolutely love this!
Thank you John for going onto Jubilee and speaking the truth, back lash is never fun. But you did a huge service for coming on there!
Thanks for watching!😁
I was waiting for this ❤
amazing episode! I can’t wait for your Mormon stories interview!!!
Thanks Danica!❤️
Nothing hurt me more than the day my LDS Father told me that he felt regret for the sacrifices he made for me when I was a kid because I ended up an Atheist. He's apologized since then, but things just aren't the same.
Always enjoy seeing you 3 together!
This was an awesome interview! Loved it!
The one person on the Mormons’ panel that could have represented the church well was largely silenced by the ones who can’t stop mansplaining.🙄 they should pass the Mike to her.
It's common for men to out talk the women in a group setting in public. Women often take over in the home setting.
Excellent discussion and analysis. Thank you!
Always love this combo of RUclipsrs!!! ❤❤❤
Yay! Thank you!
That’s why separation of church and state is of utmost importance. So many out their claiming they speak for God and so many following blindly.
Great episode
Im currently up late rocking my baby to bed and I’m so excited to listen to this! Sending all my love to you❤
Very nice to Listen to these very informative.
I was surprised that there was no discussion referring to the temple and Mormonism being a cult. Was the temple not allowed in the middle ground episode?
That's exactly what I was thinking when that topic was brought up. What better example than those culty temple rituals?
No it's more effective to say your a cult if you don't allow girls to be prophets and discourage masterbation and prevent gays even though you have a LDS gay man defending himself. Every religion has rituals. That doesn't make them a cult.
Great point. Extremely secretive rituals that only the most worthy (and those paying their 10%) can participate in that are a direct ripoff of freemasonry (another secret society) is very culty. Totally forgot to mention this. But we do have a whole episode on the temple with my mom and we talk about her experiences.
@@CultstoConsciousness Oh God, hear the words from Shalise's mouth!
@@CultstoConsciousnessthey are not secret. They are sacred.
I watched the Nuancehoe reaction last night as well, and the Cardon's beyond-cringy answers blew my mind.
I watched this Jubilee episode and I have a sneaky feeling Bella will not remain a “lifer” in the Mormon “Church” because I could tell she felt uncomfortable defending the “Church.” I think the ex-Mos, like John, brought up things she had never thought about. I believe it will be much easier for her to leave since she was a convert and not born into it. My guess is she was roped into this cult at a young age by being love bombed like so many of their young converts. The problem with that is that as you get older and mature you start to see and hear things in the Church you didn’t see as a young person and then you start doing a little bit of research. After that, the whole thing falls begins to unravel. .
I agree.
Fantastic episode! Thank you!
I finally left after 60 years of being told what to do, what to eat, be shamed, and having a husband who did nothing to help with 6 children. I am so happy.
I’m so happy for you! ❤️
Fantastic episode. I’d love to read the research on mixed-orientation marriages and bisexuality-that was fascinating. I do wish that could have been discussed while also avoiding speculation on Tember’s sexuality and the health of his marriage. Even so, this was a really great discussion. Thank you all for your work!
Absolutely its a cult.
And a horrible one.
Now I have to go watch the debate. I've seen bits of other Jubilee debates, but not this one. Excellent breakdown and discussion, guys! And I must say John Dehlin is looking rather handsome with that beard. Thanks all!
When it becomes widely known that Tember Harward is/was on the board of the repressive Northstar and launched his own version of it called Beacons in 2019, his intentions and motivations become clear.
Apologists very often use logical fallacies like whatsboutisms and the Nirvana fallacy (the idea that nothing can be perfect, so even trying to improve things is a waste of time) to avoid admitting that the thing in question does indeed work, but solely for them. Since it works for them, it doesn’t matter if it works for anyone else.
It’s extremely myopic and solipsistic.
Is there somewhere that we can see the unedited version?
I left a message on one of their broadcasts telling them that their flippant way of dealing with issues does nothing for LDS apologetics. In one of their broadcasts, they accuse Lynn Wilder of "religious bigotry" and I pointed out that its hypocritical of them to call her that given what Joseph Smith's official first vision says about other religions of the day and, well, what the LDS church still teaches today about other religious groups.
I feel bad that Cardon has cancer. Nobody should have to go through it and I am pretty sure that nobody wants him to have to go through it.
But if he insists on acting so ugly towards those who have left the LDS church this way, especially when they're not mocking him, he is definitely cutting off his own nose to spite his face as are the others.
I hope they will get out of "David Alexander" mode and become serious apologists but for now they come across as SNL live wannabes.
I have put off watching other channels coverage and am so glad I did (no offense to the other great channels)! Excited to watch your story Shelise.
NuanceHoe, did an incredible reaction!
"Religion Poisons Everything" - Christopher Hitchens
Former Mormon Bishop here, left 7 years ago still unlayering years and years of programming. Thank you for your channel and this content. I appreciate your authenticity and the topics covered that have been brushed under the rug for far too long. So many things I could go on and on, but the lack of equality between men and women blows my mind, even ward radio's commentary on Jubilee's episode exposes how out of touch they are . . one of the people on Ward Radio said "The relief society president is on the same level as the presiding Bishopric trying to illustrate why they didn't know their names", which illustrates the point even more!!! Why isn't the Relief Society President at the same level as the Prophet? Where are the wives of the apostles why don't they speak? Why don't they sit with their husbands during conference. . . So beyond tired of the placating, although I used to be on the other side of the desk saying the same thing they are. No longer!
Thank you for sharing that. It’s even more powerful from your perspective and further validates what we spoke on. 🙌
Every day since Jubilee released the video has been so entertaining and satisfying for exmos
😂
One of my friends cut themselves off from my social group. They have been actively rejecting the shared interests we had, and are now claiming that what we had in common was holding them back in life. They retreated within the relationship they had with their mormon significant other. I could not believe this. They detransitioned and just pulled away from the rest of us. I can't believe people still fall for this.
again the best collab out there!
Great video! Excited to hear Shelise's Mormon Story!!! ❤️❤️❤️
❤️
I think the sad part is that everyone in the church probably thought Cardon was great.
This was amazing!
"Yesterday's bigoted doctrine is today's disassociated policy."
100%, John!
It was so cringey to hear cardon say that people told him how good he did, and how he thought he was the center of attention "I told you I was gonna be on the thumbnail, I knew everybody was gonna go after me and they would make me the villain because they hate me the most for being a white straight male" ughhh. It seems like not even kwaku thought he did good 🫢.
I'm glad they changed the thumbnail in a day or two
Great episode.
"Carden was reason number one two and three"... dead! 🤣
Cardon would have done better if he had just talked about things from his own personal experience, which is basically what everyone else did. Instead he tried to project his own reality onto everyone else and that was never going to work or come off as anything but arrogant.
Wait, so me sleeping with my wrestling coach to ensure I don't get cancer doesn't work? I'm writing Jim Jordan immediately about that, and he better do something about it.
😂🤣😂🤣
Awesome! John was how I first found you, so this is almost nostalgic for me. Looking forward to this awesome conversation ❤
That’s great!!
Im petty, i LOVE seeing Ward Radios views at like 16k after 8 days and you're at over 13k after 5 hours 😂
And lets be honest, our middle aged heterosexual cis guy is way better than theirs.
😂😂😂🙌
I keep looking for the interview that you did telling your story and I can't find it!
I think he’s releasing it tomorrow 😁
What episode were you on? Id like to bookmark it!
You’re such an amazing woman! I admire you soo much. I’m so glad I found your channel ❤
Can someone please tell me who the 'Mother of Heaven' is supposed to be? Is it the Virgin Mary, or someone else? I'm not Mormon, so I never heard this term before, even with my Mormon friends (though considering what I now know from this video, it's easy to see why they never mentioned that!). But if it's just another name for Mary, then why would they be so secretive about it?
Oh yeah, the Onan thing. Onan wasn't put to death for masturbation. He was put to death for not fulfilling his duty as a brother. He was supposed to father a child with his brothers' widow so his brothers lineage could go on. She was willing. He didn't want the lineage competition.
Cardon is a covert narcissist period.
I love what John was saying about if half of the churches leadership was women, would the church still be so harmful ? Sexist, racist, excommunications, LGBTQ hatred … I completely agree so many problems like these would be figured out if at least half or more were women. I was really feeling that.
No mistake the lds church makes and no harm it causes is in any way justifiable. So there was no chance for the Mormons to win this.
Why? Because if you claim to be "the one true church" and you have prophets in the here and now who speak DIRECTLY with God, there just is no margin for error. There is no doctrine vs policy, there is no "oh, he just spoke as a human". If he is a prophet and able to speak with God, everything he says has to be the ultimate godly Truth (with a capital T, Cardon, Jodi....)
With these claims, the church is causing it's own downfall. It would be completely different if they would just say: there are different ways to God and this is the one our church offers. Then, a discussion about mistakes and course corrections would easily be possible without harming the credibility of the church @mormonstories
great podcast!
Interesting interview Shelise :)
Hey, from Liverpool UK 🇬🇧. I absolutely love the Mormon content. All the divisions of the sect/religion/cult whatever you refer it as. I'm fascinated by it all. I'm going to dive right in while I'm eating dinner (or as we call it over here - tea, but not the drink) just to confuse you somewhat 😂. Love and light✨🕯️
❤️❤️❤️
I can't find your Mormon Stories episode. Is it not out yet?
I think he plans to release it on Monday :)
Debate? Middle ground. I thought all did well in being cordial, i was surprised how supportive both you and kwaku were, although there was no hugging it out in the end ;D