Jubilee's “Mormons vs Ex-Mormons” on Middle Ground - Ex-Mormon Cast Reacts | Ep. 1863
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- Опубликовано: 13 июн 2024
- Join John Dehlin, Jillian Orr, Liz and Dillan for clips and behind-the-scenes commentary on the Jubilee channel’s “Mormons vs Ex-Mormons” episode. We think you’ll get fired up with us as we highlight the most infuriating logical fallacies and manipulative tactics employed by the Mormon debaters, as well as the more poignant, genuine moments from each side.
Beyond the debate recap, the conversation explores profoundly personal wounds still felt from the religion’s damaging teachings on LGBTQ identities and traditional gender roles. Jillian even courageously opens up about her inability to discuss her religious views with family members still in the church.
Find the full episode here: • Can Mormons and Ex Mor...
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
Chapters:
00:00:00 What is Jubilee Middle Ground?
00:03:40 Introductions
00:08:10 The original episode John Dehiln was on never aired
00:12:00 The Mormon side of the debate
00:15:10 Goals and stresses for going into Jubilee
00:24:51 1. Mormonism is a cult
00:44:42 2. The Church welcomes the LGBTQ community
01:16:04 3. Women and Men are Equal in the Church
01:48:00 4. Changing Church doctrine
02:23:15 5. The Mormon church has done good in the world
02:32:27 Closing remarks in Jubilee
02:39:25 What was cut out of the episode
___________________
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Bella from the video here!! This reaction was awesome. I’ll be honest I’m disappointed in Ward Radios’ reaction because I felt like it disrespected all participants unfortunately. I’m grateful that the ExMos at least still made some kind points about the other side! Bravo, you guys did awesome:)❤️
You did awesome, Bella! 👏👏👏
You were amazing Bella!
MVP right here! Bella is incredible :)
Bella, you did amazing! You were straightforward and said what you felt. I really wish we could have heard more from you, I feel like you probably had so much more to contribute to the conversation. Great job!
Bella, we could sure use someone like you on The Dark Side. Whaddya say?
Cardon gives me vibes like he really wanted to storm the Capitol on January 6th 2021, but he had a dentist appointment.
S tier comment
I choked on my own spit. This is an excellent comment 🏆
Best comment 😂
I think you win best comment!@@soozbq89
Lol his defense that mormonism isn't a cult is because Steven Hasan says trumpism is a cult 😂
I watched the response of those on Ward Radio last night. What struck me was that in your discussion here, you knew their names and called them by name. Those over on Ward Radio didn't even care enough to learn names. They called Jillian "the girl in the green shirt" repeatedly and referred to Bella as "the girl". Very revealing, IMO.
except for Tember
That right there screams Mormon superiority. It's in their blood🫶
I think the difference is that John and his team have spent years earnestly listening and searching for understanding. Cordon et al have apparently spent their time fighting to be right. When someone is right-fighting, they don’t have the emotional space to consider the perspectives of other people.
Well said. So true!
They don't even bother to remember Bella's name. She was on their side! It's disgusting. It's just "the girl," "the lesbian/the girl in the green shirt," or "the feminist." They can't even admit that they could/should have done better. Like, doesn't the church teach us to be humble? They just keep talking down to women and the people calling them out for it in the comments. And they claim to represent the side of the "righteous."
When I went to BYU to study journalism and political science in the 1970s, more than once my professors said, "Sit down, sister. You're only going to get married and have babies." Men and woman are in no way treated as equals.
Thank you for sharing. This must have been abhorrent to experience. I’m sorry this happened to you
Horrible. In my experience that stuff isn’t said out loud now, but there’s still a quiet pressure to focus on marriage and motherhood above career and education.
Wow. Like they were saying, “Don’t you dare take up so much space” (sit down) & then they belittled what is uniquely incredible & wonderful for women, giving birth.
I hope you never listened to them. Be loud. Be too much. Show the world how strong women are.
@@amybucher5439 Truth is, I did want--and had--two lovely daughters. But I also took that journalism education and used it to write 1,000 articles and 60 nonfiction books for young readers, so far. That's the saddest part. Who says you can't do both? .
My mother was Hawaiian, my dad Caucasian. When they got engaged at BYU back in the 50s, the Matthew Cowley told them
They shouldn’t get married because she was Hawaiian. Don’t tell me the church isn’t racist!
The church isn't racist. People who belong to it are.
My mother told me the same when I wanted to date a Black man in 2001, "it goes against the scriptures!" Yeah mom, because the scriptures were written by hella racist white men who wanted to protect their white women!
Some member's might have been
@@legacy79-jt1gbabout 90 - 95%.
this happened to my great grandmother, she had to go to colorado from utah to marry her first husband who was japanese because interracial marriage wasn’t allowed in utah, and i don’t think in the church either 😬 had to have been around the same time
“My welcome into the Relief Society was a spatula..” “.You’re a woman now.”
I couldn’t stop crying laughing 😂🤣😂
The difference in reaction videos is dramatic. The ex-mo’s were so much more even-tempered, kind and Christ-like. As an active member on the fringe, I was embarrassed for the church watching that. Good job on here!
Check out Jared Halverson and unshaken. By far the best ivd heard on finding the middle ground.
By proving contraries the truth is manifest?
Joseph Smith
Matt & Trey should send Cardon a cease & desist immediately because there is NO WAY that, “you don't think I wouldn't trade my leukemia for a little bit of Tember’s gayness” was not straight out of South Park. Like, in order for me to recover from the amount of cringe I feel, I need to believe it was said by Eric Cartman. I can't go on.
😆
This 👏👏⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️
Thank you for this framing. I can carry on now 😌
B R U H
So pumped for this! I had an incredible experience filming the Middle Ground episode but had a blast filming this video with John, Jill and Liz. Thanks for this opportunity John!
You guys did great!
Was awesome! Good job
❤
You were great and thank you and congratulations for the experience
As a woman had the super power to be a young women's president -i has the privilege of getting told to be quiet and sit down by a Bishop in Ward Council meeting. I feel like I was way to privileged.
I am not a Mormon, and I watched both this podcast and the middle ground podcast. I can say the ex-Mormon's came across as open hearted, honest, and thoughtful. Cardon was a bit much, and if they cut him off/out, I'd hate to see the outtakes.
Well done gang.
Liz's quote "You don't want me in this life, but you claim to want me for eternity. It cheapens this life." Mic Drop.
Jubilee - RELEASE THE 3 HOUR CUT!!!
Jubilee - RELEASE THE 3 HOUR CODIFIED CUT!!! 😂
@@dillanconrad Jubilee -- RELEASE THE 3-HOUR CODIFIED NON-DISINGENUOUS CUT!!!
Is this a possibility?
Yes. Cardon was bitching about them cutting out all the dynamite mormon responses. Release the 3 hour cut!!!!
@@jacksonadams1031Either John or Dillion (not sure which one) posted on Cardon's channel that the editors were being generous to to the Pro-Mormon (Cardon mostly) side. It was kind of hilarious to read.
I genuinely hope Cardon doesn't have any daughters. He feels like the kind of guy who's favorite novel is The Handmaid's Tale, but for all the wrong reasons.
oh my god i was getting those vibes too!! he gave me the ick fr
@@ur_l0cal_crypt1d_b00WAY more than just the ick.
So proud to be part of the ex-Mormon community (about 8 months officially out). I watched the Jubilee video yesterday and watched your reaction video tonight. You all were so well spoken and respectful! You came with facts and receipts…which is much more than can be said of the “Mormon side”. There was so much circular reasoning and mental gymnastics during their responses. I wish we could have heard more from Bella! She looked a little uncomfortable during some of her side’s responses. All 4 of you did a great job and brought so much to the table!
I couldn’t resist after watching your reaction video, so I went over to the Ward Radio podcast to see their reaction video. I could only watch a few minutes because…YIKES! Of course, Jubilee’s editing was blamed for them looking bad, Cardon couldn’t remember anyone’s name, including their own team member, Bella, and even misquoted himself! I was actually impressed by Kwaku on Jubilee but he was back to being a Midnight Mormon on their podcast - like he flipped a switch. The comments on their podcast were kind of brutal, including from TBMs/their followers.
As a lesbian ex Mormon, Jill is absolutely making me feel so seen. Thanks, Jill!
As an outsider watching, I feel like a huge disconnect that was happening is that it seems like all the ex-Mormons were raised within the church while all the Mormons seems to have been converted in, so with coming in listening to all the church has to say they make excuses like “obviously it was an idiom, it’s not to be taken literally” compared to the literal teachings that were given to children being raised within
That is very true. Growing up in the church, you get these messages literally from when you're a toddler. It absolutely provides the framework for the way you think about everything and everyone and how you relate to the world.
The songs they teach children are so evident of this mentality. Follow the Prophet, listen to the Bishop, respect your father, go to church, get baptized, go on a mission, go to the temple, serve the church. These are all messages of the songs I learned since I was less than 2 years old.
It's hard not to develop scrupulosity in that setting.
That is a really good point. Converts and non-Utah Mormons are different than 5th generation Pioneer stock.
Kwaku saying "Our Beloved Prophet" was a little too close to North Korea talking about their "Beloved Leader."
Yeah, Tember is kinda young for me to be convinced his current marriage is going to last over a decade and that he won't be dating men later in life.
Classic cognitive dissonance.
Or that he's not currently fulfilling those needs online.
He basically admitted that he's gay, and got married to a woman because he was supposed to. Sure, it's not a cult.
@@whenimonmymoon6822
I’m sure there’s a bit of that.
How long until John invites Bella and Tember to give their mormon stories?
I would be honored to be on John’s podcast:)
I would watch.
I’d love that! They both had so many thoughtful things to say
Only interested in hearing what Tember has to say if he recognizes his return to the church was the equivalent of returning to an abusive relationship. Without that much acknowledged, I'd be suspicious of his motives.
@@Larissa-eo3pt He was just on ward radio, he’s incredibly genuine.
There's a reason LDS don't publicly go into debates or even field hard questions, even at the highest level- and this video highlights why. They call it avoiding contention because contention is of the devil.
The fact of the matter is, the ground The church stands on is so weak and so easily disrupted that it's a whole lot smarter to avoid exposing all the glaring flaws to the general public and more importantly to the "faithful" followers. For most of those questions- there just aren't good answers... And they know that.
100% this, I felt this on a very deep level. Great comment🤍
Especially when their idea of an answer is “you get to receive your own confirmation of the prophets new doctrine and can know for yourself if they’re wrong” 😅 lol
Yeah, THATS how it works 🙄
The relief society isn’t the largest. They are 7million, the YWCA is 25 million. Also the NCW’s reach is way larger.
Great info!!!
I think he was confused - Relief Society is the OLDEST formally organized women's organization in the World. And it still runs like something from the 1800's.
This is great & so important to know. As long as i can remember the church has promoted the RS as the largest group of women. Way to inform us that this is just another lie.
Women are still second class in the temple ceremony. It's just not as blatant. Women are still required to agree to polygamy in the language of 'eternal marriage'
The new and everlasting covenant is code for polygamy
@@rebeccacampbell585it sure is!
Cardon presents himself as if everyone else in the room simply do no not know a fraction of the things he knows. Great job ex mo crew. Y’all held it together and did so respectfully. I appreciated that y’all truly listened to everyone to have a full conversation even though others did not show up in the same manner.
Totally agree. Never heard of Cardon but he came across as very patronizing and condescending. I doubt he gained any converts in this episode 😁
I really struggled with him probably about equal to the Temper (I know that isn’t right but I can’t remember). I don’t think you choose sexuality and I love my kids who are in the LGBT community AND felt that way before they were born so it isn’t just for them.
I really struggle with Cardon, too. I've watched him in other debates, and he's always so arrogant. If I were a Mormon, I wouldn't want him speaking for me.
But then he tries to play the bumbling fool that doesn’t know anyone’s name but the prophet.😂
Very practiced gaslighting
Was Cardon getting/having Leukemia a choice? Was his daughter "born that way"? Cardon needs to learn empathy for others, not just himself.
He’s just an entitled provocateur. He loves the unearned privilege.
He needs to learn what a false equivalence fallacy is. But let's be honest, he knows better and he's just being ignorant.
Cardon is the Stephen Crowder of Mormon apologetics
I felt there was a lack of direct presentation of the many historical issues that call into question the Mormon Church’s truth claims. At the end of the day, if the LDS Church has no connection to God, the rest of the social issues don’t matter. But there was no engagement at all on these issues.
That dude came off looking so bad. I don’t think he even knows how bad he comes off
This was so engaging and I loved watching it.
I do have to mention that the word “preside” LITERALLY means to have authority over a group (or to be in a position of control).
This was my EXACT THOUGHT. I audibly laughed when he said that. Mormons love picking apart definitions (queue a member over the pulpit saying “Websters dictionary defines it as…”). It’s just funny the dichotomy of defining things by the book then turning around and redefining it.
I was disappointed that the gay Mormon participant acted as though being in a straight marriage is something that anyone can choose. Sexuality is a spectrum. Maybe he’s bisexual and he can be comfortable in a straight marriage. That isn’t true for many gay people, and he shouldn’t pretend that it’s a lifestyle choice for others.
Tember presents so fragile and in deep denial that I doubt he’s being intentionally harmful. Though his words were harmful to his wife, kids, and even himself.
Having followed a similar path to Tember, absent being out before being in a mixed orientation marriage, I bear witness that there is much much more to his story than the crumbs given in the Jubilee episode. We have seen what the church does to gay people in mixed orientation marriages and how it exploits them, Ty Mansfield, Josh Weed etc. It is my opinion that Tember isn't on his present course out of genuine authenticity. The perspective of his former and present relationships would shed much light on his current views and beliefs.
He might be strictly gay, but he's clearly having such deep self-loathing that he is now in a mixed-orientation marriage. It's telling that when talking about his life now compared to when he was living authentically as a gay man, that he says his "joy in Jesus" is greater than the happiness he felt when he was dating men. He isn't even comparing his current marriage with his past relationships, he never said he's happier being married to a woman as a genuine feeling towards the relationship itself. He's comparing his relationships with men with his relationship with Jesus and God. Not comparing them to his relationship with his wife. It's so sad...
@@FoxbrushDraws which is exactly why I feel sorry for his wife and kids- what a narcissist. It’s all about Timber’s happiness NOT his family.
@@jivajenmoreno-adams9984 Misguided and naive, sure, but narcissistic no. Can’t see what happiness or benefit he gets from marrying someone he doesn’t romantically love other than looking good in the church.
Honestly I am sad not to see a middle aged woman in there on either side. I feel like that is a major voice that is missing!
Older Women are marginalized in our society. It is getting better, but still.
So true!!
Whether it’s a doctrine or policy , the damage is the same .
100% agree.
What I find intriguing about these changes is the timing. How often has sudden change come on the heels of public controversy? Is God subject to the will of man? Of course not! So, these "revelations" must be man-made. Unless I missed something...
and according to Cardon the way to check is to go home and pray on it. So if god didn't want it to be that way and it was a man made policy then by his standard wouldn't everyone gone home and prayed on it and then god would have told them all that it wasn't correct?
@@Bethanjbjrs
Following his line of thinking, since he specifically said the exclusion of black people from full temple rites and rights was a corruption, shouldn't the entire church been in an uproar the first time they prayed on it, as God corrected all the faithful to understand the true policy?
One of the guiding principles in my life comes from the lyrics of Neil Peart: “You’re so full of what is ‘right’ you can’t see what is good. You’re so full of what is ‘right’ you can’t see what is true.”
Cold orthodoxy will steamroll anything in its path and then turn around and defend itself as being the good fruit.
And then somehow make themselves the victim, even though their driving the steamroller
Great show! I do feel a little uncomfortable with the talk of relief society president. I am out but while in went to many leadership meetings in different cities, different provinces. I can confidently say you’re not realizing the influence these women have on the priesthood leaders, and ultimately the wards. They deserve so much respect, which they seldom to never receive. Other than that appreciate all else that was discussed. So happy these lies are being defended by y’all. Thank you for all you do Mormon Stories!
I didn't know Neil wrote the lyrics. Thanks for that
@@Wanda69710I agree that some in auxiliary roles provide input into councils in the church but the real decisions are made when just the men are present, and that’s from the ward level up to the top. The video that is heart breaking on this topic is listening to the relief society presidency that was in place when the Family Proclamation was announced speak about how they weren’t even notified this document was being created let alone invited to provide input. That says everything. Women are encouraged to sacrifice everything to raise a family but are not even invited to contribute to the discussion on the family proclamation. That must have been soul crushing to be neglected like that.
Underrated rush song on an under rated album!
If the prophet is so old that he gets God's messages wrong, then don't you think God would appoint a new prophet? 🤨🤔
Yeah, but first God has to make the old fogie kick the bucket.
Interesting how the only answer he could give was to throw the ancient man under the bus.
I think it's a safe bet to say he's probably helped the LDS church bank more money than any other prophet. Why would the powers to be change what gives them more power
Wow! wow! I am not Mormon but how in this day and age can 2 men step forward and speak about female equality. This is not a read the room. This is a get out from the rock you are living under and read society.
It speaks to their level of entitlement and being deeply embedded in the patriarchy. Women will feel the way they tell them to feel. 🙄
Listening to Kwaku try to explain that "skin of blackness" didn't mean skin of blackness was crazy. Does he even hear himself? And....it was Spencer W. Kimball who actually stated publicly that people's dark skin would get lighter if they joined the church (and it would continue to get more "white and delightsome" as they became more righteous).
Agreed so sad and cringy. It reminded me of Dave Chappelle’s bit about being a blind KKK member.
@@jivajenmoreno-adams9984that’s such a great sketch 😂
I'm sure that Kwaku would rationalize that away by saying that Kimball was speaking as a fallible human and not as a prophet of God in that instance. But every time they use that excuse, I wanna scream "So why would God pick such a racist a-hole to be the prophet in the first place?"
I was cracking up during this! 😂
Yeah, and "skin of blackness" doesn't appear in the Bible like they are trying to claim either. They also might not know about the old church published tapes for children that explicitly talked about how Native Americans were dark skinned because the Lamanites were wicked.
Having watched it... exmormons don't need to have an organized group bent on taking down the church, members such as Cardon Ellis do a better job than the most ardent exmormon could ever do.
💯
It’s hard to watch Cardon talk. I’ve watched him enough to see that he’s actually a really insecure person. I initially thought he was either arrogant or just had zero self-awareness but I’ve seen enough of him now to realize he’s just insecure and wants to seem important. I heard one of his podcasts when he referred to himself a “Hollywood” guy 3 times in the first 5 minutes. It was about then I realized he’s prob the furthest thing from an actual “Hollywood” guy… (which I have no idea what that is anyway)
Cardon is the dude telling people he’s an ALPHA and everyone that is hearing him say that realizes hes certainly NOT an Alpha. I’ve listened to LDS and POST LDS podcasts. It’s dudes like Cardon and Jacob Hansen that causes more people to leave the church then EX Mormons do because their mental gymnastic half truth reasoning is laughable to listen to and makes zero sense.
@@user-sj5ux7ut1jYou’re absolutely right. Funny that overall, ExMo’s are much more educated and articulate. Imagine that?😉
How do you feel we can all come together and talk about real issues? Ex Mormons need a place where they can feel heard and understood. Just like people in the lds church. I've heard a lot of Mormons gas lighting and attacking ex Mormons because they talk about their experience. I understand it happens the other way too. One example a member was telling another member that left the church that had doubts they didn't pay attention in church as a kid. We need to stop gas lighting and attacking each other and find ways we come together and strengthen our communities and make healthy changes in the church and talk about real issues.
@mattbock6265 the problem is that mormonism is built from the fabric of exclusion... "if you aren't with us as the one true church, you're against us." The premise is flawed from the beginning.
Cardon is so difficult to listen too. Also, Emily Belle Freeman has 178k instagram followers and Russell M Nelson has 1M. Just throwing out statements that are unfounded.
The whole point, in my mind, of being a prophet is that you are by virtue of the calling above being a product of your environment
Exactly. Thank you!
Yes. Every time someone said that other churches have problems, too, I thought the One True Church was supposed to be better? Why are they comparing?
John, as always- you are so graceful in your delivery. You found a middle ground SO perfectly. I felt represented in the discussion with your well thought out, calm but precise responses. Brilliant. Thanks for all you're doing to respectfully reach people that wouldn't normally hear us out.
The one mention of a heavenly mother- “I mean, there’s gotta be, right?” in a song called 0h My Father😂
I love how Tember openly stated that we are the only religion that believes that we can become gods. It’s truth, but it is usually greatly downplayed and not something we would use as an argument to prove that men and women are equal.
Right. Men become gods and women become hidden babymakers. Totally equality🤦♂
What does it mean to "become gods"?
Yeah I was surprised he brought that whole thing up because even though I was taught the same thing when I was in the youth, the church has strayed away from this teaching nowadays after other Christians started calling them a cult for it. I think they claimed that it was no longer doctrine around the same time they announced the term “Mormon” is forbidden and to only refer to them as LDS of the church of Jesus Christ. Hmm doesn’t sound like a cult at all
@@joycenotine283 Mormons believe that the men who reach the highest degree of the celestial kingdom will become Gods. The women become priestesses to their husbands. The Gods create their own worlds while their wives (yes, they each have innumerable wives).are eternally pregnant in order to populate the planets their husbands are creating. They believe that God had literal penetrative s3x with his daughter, Mary, to produce Jesus. And they believe that Satan and Jesus are our big brothers. This system of God/his wives/Satan/Jesus will be repeated over and over throughout the universe. They believe that the God of Earth lives on a planet called Kolob and JS explained the solar system with a whole bunch of nonsense planets and physics, all revolving around Kolob. It's in the Pearl of Great Price, written by Joseph Smith and part of the Mormon canon of scriptures.
Yeah I remember being told the same as a kid. But I think that got walked that back (AKA changed) back in the Hinkley days if I remember correctly? I mean if I can’t have my own freaking planet then what’s the point?! 😂
So proud to be represented by these incredible ex-mormons! 💜
Yes! 💯
Kwaku came across more reasonable than I expected. He was even one that did not agree that masturbation was a sin.
Yeah, when Kwaku isn't in his main group of homeboyz, he seems more decent. He did a pretty good discussion with RFM without all the nonsense jokes.
@unicorntamer2207 it's suggests there may be conpartmentalizing of who he really is and what he really believes based on surrounding influence and circumstances.
Agreed, he seemed like a different person
Totally surprised me, I would've thought he would be right by cardon's side the whole video
Thank you so much. I’m in a mixed faith marriage, and this episode of Jubilee was something we decided to watch together. It ended up being an amazing conversation!
I was a convert to the church and I am now an ex- Mormon. I grew up in the same ward and neighborhood as Liz. It fills my heart with pride to see her flourish as her authentic self.
She is amazing. I hope she does well in Hollywood. She definitely has the look too.
Liz made a pretty profound point. When you leave the church, therefore, the doctrine that families are together forever ONLY if you follow heavenly father's plan, the family members you left behind in the church might not shun you they definitely will spiritual disown you. Eternity is forever so having a deep connection with a family member is almost useless. We aren't going to be together forever so we might as well keep a distance now so it doesn't hurt as much when we are not with them in the afterlife.
Interesting perspective. Helps to explain why my family has been so superficial in the 41 years since I left the church. We all try to connect but a wall is always there.
There will always be a wall between Mormom members & those who left some of those families. My family & I still talk, but we are certainly not on the same page! They still "talk about it" around me if I visit, like im coming back but i ignore them! I'm proud though of my brother when he spoke up & said he basically doesn't trust Mormon bishops anymore, but talks to his firefighter clergyman! 😂❤ I'm basically a lone wolf, not atheist, not pagan, not Wiccan or Christian! I'm my own person I know my own things & have my own beliefs.
This is my first exposure to Carden and he is the living, breathing, definition of cringe. He just repeats little talking points but doesn’t actually understand what he is saying.
The arguments of the active Mormons were bizarre. They hold little to no regard and empathy for lgtbq members who have been harmed by the church. They were more interested in regurgitating biased arguments about themselves, rather then trying to empathetically put themselves in the shoes of those who are severely harmed by church doctrine
AS AN GAY EX MORMON GUY, THANK YOU FOR THE WORK YOU DO & SO HAPPY YALL WERE ON JUBBILE YALL DID AMAZING
It's really great that John felt some healing with Kwaku and Cardon via this experience. I personally feel like John elevated the entire conversation. Honestly, I feel like Mormon Stories has elevated the entire Mormon experience.....as ironic as that is. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Codify quickly became a Mormon swear word on here!😂😂
John, your skills as an interviewer show so well in the conversation! Holding and defending space for each person to speak and feel. Your assertiveness helped reveal the truth of the matter! Thank you
I kept on wanting to respond , “ just because the Mormons aren’t the only ones who do it, doesn’t make it right!”
And shouldn’t having a prophet mean you are ahead of the curve instead of 50 years behind everyone else?
Cardon’s arguments sucked, but I’m not seeing much criticism of weird stuff Kwaku said.
Being a member of a Star Wars fandom is the same level of “cultiness” that a high demand religion is? Star Wars fandom doesn’t require their members to wear Jedi robes and threaten their exaltation if they don’t (for starters).
We need to give the leaders of the church “grace” bc they’re allegedly dealing with mysterious cosmological relationships we can’t possibly fathom, yet the brethren on many occasions attest to having seen and spoken with God in person? JS apparently saw the two members of the godhead on more than one occasion. Even if he’s right, I love the question he danced around in what is even the point of a prophet then? Also, we don’t give the prophet enough grace? Mormons ADORE their prophets and he knows that.
He doesn’t seem like a bad person, not a dumb one, but just completely intellectually dishonest.
Lots of comments on the Jubilee video are people talking about Cardon's insensitivity and lame arguments.
We're not bigoted, it's just that God's laws are eternal and unchanging, and we follow God, so... no gay stuff. That's all. Except, God does change stuff when he needs to, that's why we have a prophet who speaks to God. It's just that he's like, really old and you know it's not like God is just some miracle worker. He can't just snap his God fingers and suddenly put God words in President Nelson's mouth. That would be crazy and clearly impossible. President Nelson does talk to God though and we need to follow the commandments he reveals to us. So yeah... at least we're not confused like all those dum dum churches with no prophet.
Just from that video (ignoring any outside commentary/statements) Kwaku to me comes across as a prime example of Mormon apologetics. To the never Mormon community it all just sounds crazy. But to the ex/post community, well, a lot of us went through a hardcore apologetics phase as we were desperately trying to keep the shelf intact. We recognize the Olympic level mental gymnastics and we get that everyone has to figure that out themselves. Possibly there is a faith crisis in his future. I look at those mental gymnastics and wish him luck. I hope he realizes someday that he shouldn’t have to spend so much time and energy trying to make it work. But if the church brings him enough joy and comfort that he’s willing to keep putting in that effort, I’m going to leave him to it.
@@mylifewithmarmalade4624 absolutely.
Yes.
"If you break it down to mean that at some point someone suggested that I live my life a certain way..."
Nobody's breaking it down that way. It's a cult because it's culty.
"...The Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them."
Which means Nephi was racist?
"Give Nelson grace because he's old."
Why is your standard so low for a prophet that he can commune with this cosmic being and still be completely wrong? Why did your God choose a 99 year old man to be his prophet?
I listened to the Jubilee episode and then saw the notification for a Mormon Stories recap after. An epic exmo panel and equally thoughtful reaponse in this reaction video.
The comments on the Jubilee video are all saying how bad of an analogy "cancer trial compared to LGBTQ+ mormon experience trial" was. How incomparable and how insensitive it was to even make that analogy.
I think it helped that this discussion was on no-man's-land. This was on Jubilee turf. I don't know if the same energy would be found on either space owned by the other's podcasts. On home turf, walls have a tendency to go up. I don't know if that's human nature, just an observation of sorts.
Back when they were Midnight Mormons, there was a discussion/debate with RFM in front of a live, in-person audience and the Mormons wore bullet-proof vests. There's fear about being vulnerable. There's fear of being on someone else's turf. There's fear of inviting someone into your turf. Fear hurts connection.
Ugh just watched the ward radio response video - that was so incredibly painful. The second-hand embarrassment I felt during the whole thing was brutal.
This is a great reveiw of the Jubilee. I found myself yelling at the screen several times as I watched the episode. I am so glad you are all rehashing this together after that utterly insane POV from these apologists. Great job! Loved this.
@mormonstoriespodcast Bella mentioned in reply to a comment that she would like to be a guess on Mormon Stories. John and team please make this happen. I and others would love to hear from her.
I would love to see a longer debate with these panelists. It's so fun to hear the open discussions on both sides. You guys killed it and I need to see more!
Carson is so insufferable and patronizing. Good grief. It's like Sunday School all over again.
I've never been a Mormon but I was fundamentalist Christian for 25 years, and sometimes Mormon Stories helps me think through and grieve through what I've experienced. There's enough similarity to what I've believed and been through for me to be able to relate but enough difference to reduce the PTSD responses.
Honestly, same. Grew up Fundamentalist Christian, not Mormon, but this podcast really does help me work out things.
This touches on a lot of the ethical issues, and that is fantastic! The problem is, that Mormon members can almost infinitely brush any bad away with thought stoppers like "men are flawed, god lets them make mistakes. Just pray about it" Meanwhile their leaders are saying things like "God won't let us lie to you or lead you astray." The question I have for members is, "How many mistakes, how many bad things, how many reactive changes can they make when pressured by social climate, how many historical lies and mistakes can leaders and more specifically the man who started it all, Joseph Smith, make before you see enough red flags to leave it? There was sooo much I personally did not know for 35 years, that was actively taught differently or lied about in my church education. They had the info and had the opportunity to teach it accurately but they did not. Why lie if you have the truth???
Right! And avoiding people that have left the church so you aren't influenced by Satan and lead astray as well. Wouldn't talking with them reaffirm your beliefs instead make them fall apart? Truth should easily hold up to some inspection.
The other team (C-A-R-D-O-N) has posted on his channel that they would do a sit down with John Dehlin!!! YOU NEED TO CALL THEM ASAP!
Cardon would show up in a bulletproof vest again and say he’s worried about John’s followers assassinating him.
It’s not needed. Cardon has already done so many terrible things to John. John doesn’t have to justify speaking to him.
@@NicoleUntch Mic-drop for Nikki!
There’s nothing useful that can be accomplished with that conversation. It’d be a mega ton of drama no doubt, but beyond that? Nah. Total waste of John’s time and energy. Cordon and anyone who thinks he’s all that and a button up quad combination has been drinking so much of the rootbeer that they might as well have turned into an igloo cooler. People like him don’t have a shelf, they don’t have items for the shelf. The second a potential shelf item pops up they build a bonfire out of rousing choruses of “Army Of Helamen” and burn it to a crisp. A well argued debate isn’t going to start a paradigm shift for them. Short of being visited by three ghosts in the middle of the night, nothing will.
That’s like Andrew Tate challenging the Russian Army.
{People gave props to Kwaku for his comportment during this event and seemed pleasantly surprised by his demeanor. I, the cynic, on the other hand wonder openly is if his demeanor changed solely because he is face to face with the people he usually talks about instead of just being on an open mike talking in a room.}
as a passive aggressive exmo cynic who used to back-stab constantly when in, when your used to front stabber Scaramucci , you learn to appreciate the backstabbers. but that's 100% what he's doing, is wearing a mask to seem reasonable and friendly, then being catty in more ameniable settings. damn, i really was a mean girl.
I watched the panel last night, it was incredibly triggering for me. When Carden started talking about the bite model, and how everything can be considered a cult, therefore, nothing is a cult… My blood boiled! How can you be so blind? What a copout answer that only proves your ignorance.
And poor Tember, I feel bad for him and his straight wife. They both deserve partners who will love them, mind, body and soul. I couldn’t help but feel how repressed he is, and that he can only give his wife so much. She deserves a man who will devour her, not someone who is simply with her so that he can get into heaven by repressing his nature. Absolutely tragic.
I felt super bad for Tember. Literally not the point but as a Christian who knows we're supposed to bring people closer to god, I truly hope Tember leaves all religion so he doesn't feel pressure from anyone to be married to a woman, when he spoke it was clear that even if he was just christian and not mormon he'd still have the same feelings, or maybe he could learn from Dillan that has learned to be a believer of god with his husband.
"So powerful they can be seen sometimes..." I'm dead. 🤣
To me, Tember comes across as a person who doesn't know how to think for himself. Everything he said wasn't his own thought but just regurgitated things he's been told his whole life.
Tember is mistaken: Jesus NEVER said homosexuality is a sin, nor even forbidden. The actual words of the most important teacher of the Christian faith didn’t include any words about homosexuality at all. Other New Testament teachers spoke against homosexuality; Jesus himself did not. Too often this goes unmentioned, alas, and it feels so important to remember, especially when people say “Jesus said queerness is a sin.”😢
The OT is very clear about homosexuality, and Jesus speaks about not abolishing the laws, and that the heavens and earth would disappear before even a tilde of the word of law was changed.
You would think that Jesus would think it important to clarify the actual position of homosexuality considering the great amount of harm inflicted upon lgbt people each year, and the overwhelmingly numerous suicides that come about due to the harrassment they receive because of the interpretation of religious scripture.
@@j0kerclash289the OT is not very clear about homosexuality, quite the contrary, and even if it were, the OT says a heck of a lot of stuff we don’t follow. You’d think if it was, say, more important than mixing wool and linen, he would have mentioned something.
Wow so I just checked out Ward Radio (hope I got that right) reaction after having watched this reaction. JOHN you sir are the epitome of class and grace! The other reaction was so dismissive and condescending. They couldnt even be bothered to call people by name; the comment section was pretty brutal telling them their behavior was atrocious too. I couldn't even finish watching it, it was that bad.
This reaction and the way in which you carried yourself in Jubilee is brilliant! You were all respectful, empathetic, and really tried to use the experience for good. Ward radio's reaction felt like locker room dribble and I kept waiting for high fives and towels being popped at each other.
Morman Stories did these interviews perfectly with class, dignity, respect, and empathy WELL DONE!!! That's why I enjoy this channel... integrity!
I've seen Cardon's leukemia vs gayness thing 3 times now (on the OG Jubilee show, here and on Midnight Mormons reaction video) and it just KEEPS GETTING WORSE.🤢
What a ridiculous moment.
Forget Klondike bars, I need Cardon to give me a list of all the things he would trade in for a "little bit of gayness". 🤦♂
I recommend checking out the Ward Radio reaction to the Jubilee Video. Very revealing the way they viewed the finished product and the way they talk about John, Jillian, Liz and Dillan. I was amazed at how different the mormon reaction was to the ex-mormon reaction.
Hey they kind of liked me, even though at first I was the "disaffected gay guy." Lol
@dillanconrad you did great!
The comments section on the Ward Radio video is filled with ex-mos and anti-mormon-Christians telling Cardon how wrong he is, and Cardon tries to respond. It's a bit entertaining.
1: It's astonishing that two white men had the gall to step forward to say that men and women are equal in the LDS Church.
2: Cardon loves to toss around the term Anti-Mormon - as if it's meaningful as anything other than a victim card that can dismiss any opposition.
Or worse, that it has any play outside of Mormonism.
I think the leadership of the church would benefit greatly by watching the episode. I really hope it ends up in their inbox
They have people assigned to investigate everything related to the Church online and report it to them. That’s how they elaborate their Conference talks and present it as revelations, members then believe it’s revelation because it sounds so relevant to our day.
@@FFM115agreed!
I watched the Jubilee video so it's great to also have your reactions. It's so interesting to hear about the filming process and how much was cut out. I wish they would release the full version because it sounds like some great stuff was edited out.
Tember saying, and I’m paraphrasing, the Mormon church is the only one that teaches that men and women are equal (but after they die) is so wild to me. And the Cardon saying they’re the only church that sings about “heavenly mother” … I have to imagine Catholics would like a word. Has he ever heard of the Hail Mary??
Some LDS are well behind the times. From the Sacred Writings of The Bahá'í Faith, founded in 1844:
"And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is the equality of women and men. The world of humanity has two wings -- one is women and the other men. Not until both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, flight is impossible. Not until the world of women becomes equal to the world of men in the acquisition of virtues and perfections, can success and prosperity be attained as they ought to be."
Your point certainly can't be that the Catholic Church espouses equality among genders.
Cardon's insular ignorance was quite prominently displayed throughout. There are even eastern religions that pray to and acknowledge a heavenly mother.
Basically every time Tember opened his mouth it was a lot of “oh boy here we go…” feelings from me. He said a LOT of very wild things.
@@johnhorner1969I heard him for the first time while driving & my soul & head did this very thing! I agree!! 😅❤
Kwaku came off a lot more kind and less haughty than ANY other video I have seen of him.
Based on what I’ve seen since….it might have been acting. We shall see.
He was temporarily on his best behavior! 😂😂😂 Check out his other podcasts.
I thought so too, until I went over to Ward Radio and watched a few minutes (it’s all I could stand) of their reaction video. He’s a totally different person!
I just watched the Ward Radio response to the Jubilee video after watching yours and I just wanted to say im sorry they said those things about all of you. I think that that was really disrespectful and did not need to happen. I liked many of your points and I think you represented well. The fact that the LDS ward radio people blamed the questions for being bad, when they didn't represent the church well was a joke. I admire all of you coming on and I hope that there can be more grace and space going forward if they produce more content around each of you. Thank you for sharing your stories.
I agree with the points about shunning. My parents have been WONDERFUL and we're actually closer than ever since I left the church, but my extended family and friends definitely treat me different. I've been ghosted by many of them.
@ladrac198 so sorry to hear that.
I'm so lucky to have a single mother (divorced) who loves me and accepts me, even if I no longer share her beliefs. But my extended family is very fractured by the church. I agree with that point 100% because that's been my lived experience as well. The organization that claims to be all about family togetherness has been the biggest force in tearing my family apart than anything in my life.
Loved this episode of you guys breaking down the jubilee video!! Such a more in depth conversation! Disappointed by some of the things they cut but glad y’all filled us in.
I had an extremely difficult time getting through the jubilee video on its own. Good thing this video exists and allows my nerves a break as well as providing some insightful commentary. Much love. ❤
Same! I was fuming mad and ready to throw hands.
So brave of you all to participate in something so frustrating. It’s my opinion that logic and religion work well together in very very few cases. Keep up the good work and fighting the good fight!
Some of these things being said by the Mormon side are just making my jaw drop, particularly the leukemia comment. And don’t you dare go on about how straight people have to follow the law of chastity until they get married. The difference is that their needs will eventually get met when they get married, while you tell the people who are gay and lesbian to be celibate for the rest of their lives. The straights also get to have the other benefits of a long-term romantic relationship. Now, purity culture does result in straight people getting married faster so they don’t break the law of chastity, but that’s a whole different conversation.
Jillian was wonderful in this recording. Thank you for sharing your pride & passion.
On the dark skin Spencer W Kimball talked abt how the Lamanites were becoming whiter..
When Kwaku said that the curse didn't apply to African Americans, I was afraid he was going to say it only applied to Native Americans. So glad he went on to call Nephi racist. Of course Nephi is a fictitious character...
@@goatymacgoatface6544 Yep, and it's one more racist prophet. Boy, God sure can pick 'em!
I just love John's delivery. When Liz felt she was rambling, and he said, "No, this is important." I wish more men spoke to women this way in all walks of life. I feel women so often feel they are on some sort of ticking clock to get their thoughts out, but that validation to take her time was so refreshing and affirming.
I wish I could award this observation with a thousand likes
It would be interesting to hear those cringy things that Cardon said that got cut. In fact, all of the things that were cut. Is there a way to obtain footage?
Yes, directors cut is vital.
This is such a fascinating discussion. I love that you guys are doing a live react to Middleground.
LOVED this! Loved the middle ground episode, and I loved hearing your inside perspectives and thoughts as you filmed this and as you rewatched this! So fascinating and validating!
One of the many things Cardon got wrong is talking about that our society is hypersexual. Whether that's true or not has absoulutely nothing to due with ones sexuality. Sexuality is much more than sex. Also If you observe societies, cultures and countries that are far more sexually repressed and chaste than the US or western world, they still have just as much if not more problems with being LGBTQIA+ than we do. Also in certain regards we are hypersexualized and in others we are very sexually repressive, which is another problem the church has.
The burka and hooters are really different sides of same coin.
100% my wife and I have been together 32 yrs. We’ve raised kids and have grandchildren. Our sexual intimacy is but a small piece of our relationship. And yet I cherish every part because I love her dearly.
LGBTQ marriage is 90% = to straight marriage (the 10% diff is the bigotry we experience)
Did that mormon boy just learn the word codified two weeks ago? is that why he keeps using it?
2:14:00 at some point Kwaku is going to get too progressive for Ward Radio, and it’s going to cause the show serious issues. Do you allow him the platform or do you make a big scene by removing him from the show? I can’t wait to see what happens.
I completely agree. I'm curious to see where he'll be a few years down the road because there seems to be a greater divide between him and Cardon.
You guys did great and represented so well!!! This is setting the groundwork for families with different beliefs to start having conversations..It gives me some hope and i appreciate you guys putting yourselves out there and doing it so well!!!
I've been watching the Jubilee video in segments because of the insufferable American Dad looking guy's total mansplaining, patronizing attitude. The Mormon church wasn't very well served by having him on their side with his "If you're a faithful Mormon, but you're not, you'd know it's truth" attitude. Thanks, John, Jillian, Liz, and Dillan. And even the other participants were listening, and conversing. But not Mr. American Dad.
To me, he presented as being in desperate need to control the conversation.
Exactly why I was glad he was on the panel. He perfectly represented a large portion of active Mormon membership.
Same. I can only watch in 5 minute increments. Cardon is just insufferable.
“My involvement [as a woman]? Personally, I was involved with the youth, as a secretary…” such a telling comment!
Having moderated content between active members and recent exmos in the hope that conversations can take place would be incredible.
1:08:23 when tember said (I’m paraphrasing) the joy i feel in christ is better than any happiness or connection with any boyfriend…how does his wife feel when she hears that? If you’re his wife, do you listen to that and think “i am so happy he is married to me!”?
I 💜 Jillian, Liz & Dillan!!!!!! This episode was on fire. So so good. Great job, John for hosting this incredible discussion.
It's frustrating that one of the men says that women are treated the same (oppressed) in all Judeo-Christian traditions, when that is not true. We have women pastors at our church, etc.
All I could think of when the one guy mentioned an overly sexualized society, was Mormon Stories episode with the ex bishops talking about how the church's obsession with sex is harmful for its members.
It’s interesting because I could actually agree with both of those points but I TOTALLY disagree with how Cardon leveraged it.
Yes somebody should have responded with “YOU live in a hypersexualized society… it’s called Mormonism lol.”
It was telling that Cardon only sees homosexuality as a sex act. His ignorance is equal to his confidence in speaking about this subject.
Seriously wow. I thought *everyone* on the ex mo side did a great job holding that difficult line between being direct and firm in their counterpoints but *not* crossing in to disrespect, personal attack or unhelpful exaggerations to make a point. With their history, I can see how John could have allowed things to get personal between him/Cardon/Kuaku. I was so impressed that he kept it cool and non personal. Props.
Also, acknowledging the church on the whole likely does good was such a classy response. The abusive parent (who actually may be doing the best they can with their flawed selves) is a good analogy. Another that came to mind is fossil fuels or plastic. Yes, on the whole these things have brought about good. But we are realizing there are toxic effects that need to be acknowledged, understood and mitigated. Just cuz humanity has progressed due to these technologies doesn't mean their toxic effects get a pass.
I would love to see more of Jillian on Mormon Stories. She is amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!