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Debunking John Dehlin...Again (1 of 3) | Reacting to "Understanding Mormonism"
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- Опубликовано: 8 ноя 2020
- Armchair Apologists Kwaku El and Brad Witbeck sit down and debunk the latest manifesto from the original gangsta of anti-mormonism, John Dehlin and his new "Understanding Mormonism" RUclips Channel.
I am a 58 year old grandma. Went to BYU. Sealed to my return missionary husband at 19 years old. Had my first baby at 20. I was a stay at home homeschooling mother - living my dream. Was a grandma at 39. Graduated with a masters degree when I was 54 years old. Now I support my husband as he runs a non profit initiative (non profit is the key phrase here) living his dream. I have been married for 39 years. I have a beautiful family. I grandchildren know, love and adore me. I have a sweet love affair with my husband. Who could be happier? Thank so much to my mother who had 11 children, raised me in the church and taught me the gospel. I’m sad for you J D. I don’t know why you think my life is dictated slavery. - Fulfillment of scripture.
wow, this is an epic comment! What an amazing life you live! The Restored Gospel teaches that your life is the meek glorious life that God hopes we live. The glamour and wealth and import of the great and spacious internet isn't where it's at. You're a great example. Thanks for tuning in.
Love it! Love you! Thank you 🎉
My life is similar in some ways. I returned from a mission and taught at the MTC while attending BYU to finish my bachelors degree when I met my husband. We are true friends that allow each other our few/many imperfections as we “grow up” in the gospel. We married in the Temple, and had baby number 1 about 10 months after. We have 9 children (though one of our sons passed away at 3 mos. old). We are grandparents with an ever expanding family. I’m an “all in” kind of person and am a wonderful grandma (15 and counting)! I went back to college with my older kids, finished my degree and am writing books and I taught school for several years before a big move and COVID school broke my teaching heart. My hubby and ai work together at a company we own. I have my version of “having it all,” in that I have the things I chose! I am blessed beyond measure and raised in the church still check my faith and my politics once in awhile. Meanwhile, I have only found that perfection does not exist in this life. Fallible people are for the most part trying their best. For those who sneak like, do evil inside my beloved church? Get the H out. The haters? That hate is hurting you and one day, like Alma the younger, your regret will be bitter gal in your mouth.
Good for you however the news with actual evidence of serious abuses indicates your story is not the whole picture and people need understand the entirety of the church not just a single person’s claim.
You are highly blessed! Father has blessed you!
I first heard of John Dehlin about a dozen years ago. He was speaking about research he was doing for a master’s degree from Utah State University. He had interviewed hundreds of people who had left the Church.
His basic conclusion was that the deconversion process was the same as the conversion process. As he described both in three phases. While listening to him, it became obvious that the three phases of the conversion and deconversion processes were not the same.
The first phase has to do with feelings about dealing with uncertainties. The second phase is about internal feelings that swell up. The third phase is about external feelings.
Given his descriptions, the conversion process can be summarized as faith-hope-love. Faith is how we deal with uncertainties. It is critical to have faith in the power to create, save, and atone, namely Christ. When we exercise faith, hope grows within us. Hope that the power of God will help us. Hope in salvation. Hope in divine power. As we continue to exercise faith and our hope grows, the pure love of Christ grows within us.
The deconversion process is best summed up by Yoda in Star Wars. "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate." Fear is not the same as faith. It is about dealing with uncertainties, but in a different way. We all experience some faith and some fear. But which do we exercise? Exercising fear leads to anger. Anger is internal like hope, but it is the opposite of hope. Continuing to exercise fear and with anger swelling within us, we start building hate.
Yoda continued that fear-anger-hate leads to suffering. And that is correct. Faith-hope-love leads to eternal happiness.
There have been studies that show that when subjects develop fear-anger-hate, they become tunnel visioned. They become focused lose perspective on what is outside that focus. On the other hand, hope and love lead to broadening views.
The Faith-->Hope-->Love process broadens our perspective and leads to happiness. The Fear-->Anger-->Hate process narrows our perspectives and leads to suffering.
Keep up the good work.
Wow, very eloquently put 👏
Yes, love it!
That's a great point because there are very real experiences that people have when they leave the church and they feel quite strongly about them, and they want to feel some compassion and validation for their feelings. At the same time, when they can reassess their experiences and go back toward the faith-hope-love, there tends to be more understanding and hopefulness.
I love how he criticizes us for not valuing the Bible, but then turns around and criticizes us for taking the law of chastity and tithing seriously. His criticism of our value of the Bible would be a little more effective if he valued the Bible himself. His inconsistency shows that he doesn't value anything other than hatred for the church.
The ad hominem attacks on John are not “Mormon” he is not attacking you as people his is attacking the teachings. He doesn’t agree with some of the teachings and when he was talking about other churches being false or inferior he was saying that as false or inferior as synonyms.
When he talked about the Native Americans being cursed with dark skin you said he is being dishonest and disagreed and then switched topics. How do you actually refute that?
If the church were to be asked whether the woman or man should stay home and take care of the kids who would be the one pushed to do that? Are the women in your church pushed to be leaders and have careers as much as the men are? No, I don’t think so. If you actually look at these things the women are more likely to be pushed towards being a house wife than having a career. Why don’t you actually reach out to some Mormon women and ask them yourselves?
He is saying that men are treated differently than women.
You guys are severely dishonest with what John is saying.
Thanks for not locking the comments. I'm an active member of the church, so maybe I "ought" to agree with this, but what the LDS leaders and apologists don't seem to realize is that John Dehlin has such a following because he extends genuine concern and consideration to people going through legitimate difficulties with their relationship with the church. He is kind, well informed, and much more watchable than these "debunking" videos. Just a suggestion, but maybe extending some of that towards your audience would earn you more of a following or pull people back from the brink.
I don't know if there's this expectation that we should just not respomd to John's criticisms/attacks on the faith, but that's not how this works. When someone attacks your faith/belief you're allowed to defend it.
Being nice by not responding with the same vigor used to attack, has put the church where it is right now. These guys aren’t as big as JD and never will be. They connect with many people though, I don’t always love what they say or how they say it but they serve a valuable purpose in defending the faith and calling out godlike imposters with smiling faces like JD and MS. JD does NOT care about anybody. All he cares about is his $500,000 salary for being “kind”. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander and I’m frankly, just sick of these JD muther effers who hurt and destroy intentionally.
These guys aren’t funny and appear to have little knowledge of modern prophet teachings .
He sounds a lot like a snake oil salesman. Satan is a great counterfeiter, too. He can make deception look like understanding and compassion. John Dehlin literally mixes truth with lie on the very face. The only type of members he is grabbing are those who have not dived deeply enough into the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I think "well informed" is being generous for JD. He is being slanderous in the manner in which he presents and does so in a way to lead others astray. I noped out of his videos more than once before I found any of these debunking videos because it was obvious to me his heart is NOT in the right place. He's not even trying to be nice about it. His breathless see see and look how they are wrong with feigned concern for others is obvious trying to lead others down to hell. If you don't see it I am concerned and I don't say these things lightly or often. I usually avoid even addressing these things.
I think this channel is good fun but Jacob Hansen's channel "thoughtful faith" is more "turn the hearts of man to God" type of debating.
This is a perfect example of why it is so hard to talk to family and friends about why you leave the church. He is talking about things that so many people struggle with and you mock him for it. In your church it is not safe to think differently or you are mocked and the devil has got you.
I listen to his podcast. It does not come off mean like this. He addresses hard facts about the church, but I don’t catch a mocking or a mean tone and I’ve heard him stop guests from talking that way.
It’s great that you defend your faith, but please consider your tone. Relisten to John’s podcast. Even if you disagree with it I think you’ll see that he is much kinder to those that think differently than he does then what is found here.
Clearly you didn’t give this video a fair shake or watch it in its entirety. John Dehlin, omits and slants a lot of his statements on the church to build himself up and cover his tracks, while criticizing the church. There is evidence to back up that claim, but for a Doctor of Psychology.. he knows how your brain works, and instead of helping you he is manipulating you. Not that he has the devils tongue or that he is the antichrist, but based on his actions he is not a forthright and godly man.
@@TAMNinjaGlare Name one? I’m sure there things that are weaker arguments but I don’t think he makes any claims that are unjustified or that there is no evidence for.
Except that he doesn’t discuss hard “facts.” He purposefully misrepresents doctrine and beliefs to ensure folks like you will buy into and hang on every word he says is truth.He needs you but get you believing that you need him.
You realize there’s a reason why Carah Burrell left Mormon stories. JD is a lunatic and doesn’t shy away from saying absolute lies about the church
@@Lotrisgr8 I hope you'd consider understanding the reason.. it was nothing about John being a lunatic, or "lying" what lies?? Carah Burell left for numerous reasons and she made a video about it and discussed the day she stopped after a traumatic interview, and spoke after on Mormonism Live for a prescheduled show. The date was 03/16/22 but I am not sure you would fully understand her feeling and experinces, unless you go in with compassion and understanding.
If there are lies that John has told, I am certain he would want to be corrected if you can provide that.
I am related to the first woman doctor and surgeon in Utah. Brigham Young insisted she continue her medical studies even though she had something like 6 children. She left them with her mother and began new medical studies in the East. So it’s kind of hard for me to believe women are just supposed to stay at home.
By the way I’m a convert so funding out I am related to this woman is amazing.
Didn't God appear to Joseph Smith and say" said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
Yes...and the first version of the temple endowment had some specific language requiring members to denounce all other religions(by name).
@@Thriving-uv2ce So apparently this whole "we love all religions" thing is part of the New Improved Mormonism?
Proud of you for not locking your comments unlike fair mormon 😂.
They will be locked before long!
They’re paid by Fairmormon! Too bad LDS Inc/ Fair Mormon just cut ties w/ these idiot deceitful buffoons 🤡!!
@@tgrogan6049 9 months later, still not locked.
@@tgrogan6049 Nope, 9 months later and it hasn't changed. LOL
@@youngpark6320 LOL buffoons. "cut ties"?? No they didn't. Try again.
I'm about halfway through, but I had to stop and ask some questions. You guys have *really* never heard the Church teach that sexual sin is next to murder? Like, seriously, didn't have to watch Holland's "Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments" BYU address repeatedly in seminary? And, you (and the women your age) have never heard women being discouraged from pursuing advanced degrees? I'm young Gen X/old Millennial, and I was definitely taught this stuff growing up. I know the Church has vastly improved its teaching of Church history over the last decade, but I'm honestly surprised at you guys calling these claims ridiculous.
It is amazing what people will do for money, sex and power! Apologetics is a racket!
Yeah, I’m 35. We were all taught those things growing up. I know Kwaku is a convert, but those other two DezNat bros grew up in the church and look around my age. These people love pretending like the way the church is now has always been that way.
Both of my (much older) sisters pursued advanced degrees and had families and currently have careers. One got a PH.D. As for sexual sin, their conversation was more nuanced and more detailed than you gave credit for.
the church never taught sexual sin was like murder.
perhaps your parents or teachers did.
but that is not a church doctrine. same with degrees.
@@tgrogan6049 it's amazing the comments some people write, just for attention ... nonsensical comments are a racket.
Well, there are some good points, but I have to say I did watch many of Johns interviews and there are many people that have a story that needs to be heard, and be taken serious... especially because the church is to a great deal lead my common people.. I have seen quite some sincere people on there with stories that are contrary to what I experienced within the church, but so do we all differ in our experiences and I asume that not feeling heard and taken serious, is contributing to a lot of damage to many people...
I’ve heard many stories that are valid as well. The challenge is he also find people who’ve been proven as frauds and gives them a platform to push his agenda. It’s just sad. He doesn’t want to build faith, he wants to lead people to doubt and justify their apostasy. I got caught in this as well and have since repented. When people lose the spirit due to bad choices it is easy to fall prey to his deceptions. I’m grateful for Grace and the Atonement of Jesus Christ which allowed me to repent and be baptized again. So grateful for my covenants which i took for granted.
Do they really feel unheard or that the church didn’t change their doctrines in congruence with their desires? And are thus unheard?
@@magapefarmshomestead6453 Obviously there is room for both, since all are human. And so everyone should start within their own reach of possibility to make the difference.. What wont help is to condemn the church because people make errors, nor does it help to claim the church never has reason to improve itself. The way we treat people will greatly determin their chances to come back to the church, and Christ has set the standart.
@@SimonDaumMusic👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿
“Scientifically when polled Mormons are happier, live longer, and have better adjusted children” would be interested to see these numbers. From what I’ve researched utah has the highest teen suicide rate. How does that make sense?
White privileged straight male Mormons are happier and live longer. Women take anti depressants to fit into their role as housewives. Gay teens kill themselves. Black members pray that their skin becomes white.
I’d like to see this study. Please share the study showing Utah has the highest suicide rate and the sources and methods. I’ve seen many articles to push this trope and narrative along with Utah being the highest pornography rates in the country and yet when digging into sources and methods it was completely false and spun to shine a inaccurate light.
Please share and enlighten us!
The five highest-ranking states for teenage suicide, according to the latest CDC data, are Colorado (21.2 deaths per 100,000 youths), New Mexico (21.9), Montana (30.3), South Dakota (33.6), and finally Alaska, topping all 50 states with 39.8 deaths per 100,000 youths.
im a faithful member but its in D&C lol. He's correct it goes denying the holy ghost, murder, and chastity issues. So again don't like korihor dehlin but you guys were wrong
I feel as if I’m watching a 21st century adaptation of Alma and Amulek debating Zeezrom
How can you say that you don't consider other churches to be inferior when you literally have entire videos where you bash on Calvinism, Catholicism and other religions? So much BS in your videos that it's hard to keep track of.
"Rules for thee but not for me"
There’s a big, gaping difference between pointing out flaws (which Calvinists, Catholics, and others love to do to the LDS church as well) and thinking somebody is automatically inferior due to their religious affiliation.
@@Ziplock95 I've watched the MM videos so far and they're clearly saying that other religions are inferior both from the lived experience perspective and doctrinally so there is no gaping difference according to MM.
@@RonPeolman I agree with the comment above, and they’re only giving counter arguments, AND correcting some of the exaggerated statements made. Something that is done by Ex-Mos
But also it’s clear that he John Dehlin has an ulterior motive by the way that he presents the church. And from what it sounds like (not from the commentary) but from him that he’s purposely trying to sow doubt, or targeting other faiths to hate on the church itself.
I'm a happy member of the church and I totally agree with you guys on these points. I will say though, I felt that sexual sin was taught as second to murder in my experience growing up in the church. This is fundamentally true in our church and I think in Christianity in general. Accordingly, I felt that porn/masturbation/fornication/adultery were all basically "second to murder". I get where you guys are coming from in your response, but even if this doctrine wasn't taught in our scriptures and church, that was my experience growing up and I'm sure it's been the experience of plenty of other members.
It seems Utah has one of if not the highest porn use per capita in the nation (this is a very hard statistic to determine), and the most obvious reason for this to me is because of the shame church members feel about it. Porn is a hard enough thing to get away from on its own, but when members of the church are taught (by culture or connotation if not explicitly) that sexual sin is second to murder, even though it's basically true, it can be damaging. Pornography and sexuality is a much more nuanced issue than most people give it credit for. For as serious an issue as it is, I think it would be cool if we had a more effective way to address it.
second to murder can also doesnt mean right next to it. sure it could be considered the next worst sin but that doesnt mean there isnt a huge gap between them
@@lootingiv4058 sure - but that's not the nuance an 8 year old always catches. Obviously I didn't as a kid and I still don't think it's been covered with much nuance today.
It makes no sense continuously blaming problems on the Church. It’s nonsense in my book. I never seem to hear the gospel is false by too many anti’s. Most anti’s are whining because history was fallible with imperfect people trying to follow organizing the Lord’s church to do the work he has assigned. The church has been fought against by the adversary from the very beginning and people leaving appear oblivious to the methods and designs used by the accuser falling right down the rabbit hole because of looking for fault. I do wonder if they ever spend as much time looking for what’s right by learning the gospel compared to the time spent looking for faults and participating in negative stories.
Fight the new drug is a website that puts together all the ways porn is bad, what it does to our brains, relationships, and societies. I think one good way to address any don't do this teachings is to explain why. And there are usually a lot more reasons than just it's a sin.
@@beefmaster4 The website certainly makes an attempt to combat porn. Some may find their content informative. Never had an impact for me personally.
They didn't shut down the comment section? Ok cool. Why doesn't Kwaku meet with John who's put out the invite?
I don't know who is John is but I know a bit about LDS young black man is ")
I don't know about this topic too
They constantly try to meet with John and he always cancels on them
@@braeden5181 let’s have them tell us that! And call John out in a video!
@@beboystyle620 I don't recall which ones, but I've seen them do just that in at least two videos haha
johns a predator
So glad I found this channel! Keep up the good work guys! 🙌
Has John d ever attacked your character on his RUclips channel? I didn’t think so. If you ask me I feel more negativity and evil on your channel than anything. God bless you.
God bless you? after saying theyre evil?
They didn’t mock him, they said he had a cool hat and were proud he put capital into his ‘business’
Yep, he literally made racist statements about Kwaku
The analogy of a gym owner or personal trainer being ripped and then comparing it to the leaders of the Mormon church is illogical. It’s more like leaders of the Mormon church claim to be ripped and have a small contingent reassuring them that they are, when in reality they are sporting a beer gut.
A beer gut with a Bic lighter, because they are all gas lighters.
@@bradensorensen966 bic lighter, flame thrower....same difference, right?
@@bradensorensen966 LOL. There is the anti key-words. "gas lighters". please. If you are such an ex-member and post multiple times on every Midnight Mormons video - you seem to be OBSESSED with these guys. But it sure is fun to read all of your comments 9-months later and see how well they aged. Hey, even in the last video they had civil respectful discourse with Johnathan Streeter. That's FARRRR more credit/respect than you would ever give a member.
Have the courage to talk about the Gospel Topics Essays! No you don't have that courage bcause we would mop the floor with you Guys!!!
Without John I would have been devorced from my TBM wife . He keeps me sane.
you chose your wife. Be true to your promise. Kwaku touches on the gospel topic essays a number of times through a myriad of his videos.
@@Ether-pb5gb Where did I chose my wife?! Give me links and I will react. Did he react about the First Vision? Did he react about Polygamy?
@@Ex-LDS you didn't choose your wife? Really? Were you in an arranged marriage or something? Kwaku has plenty of videos about Gospel Essay topics (race and the priesthood, polygamy, and others)....if they aren't on "Stone 16", then they are on "Saints Unscripted" or on "Kwaku". Good luck, and merry Christmas and happy New Year
@@Ether-pb5gb Do you mind that I don't respond to your whining about my wife. I do not want to listen to all that Kwaku nonsens, so give me proper links where I can fine it direct.
@@Ex-LDS I mean, did you choose your wife or not? Did you commit yourself to her or not? If you are looking for a video that says "Kwaku address the Gospel Topics Essays", I don't think you will find it. But if you search for Kwaku's name and add something like "polygamy" or "race" or "priesthood", I am sure you will find it. In the meantime, be good to your poor wife. She is probably having a hard time with your loss of faith....she probably feels robbed in a sense, feeling that she married somebody else. But I am highly confident that you guys can have a successful marriage if you build on top of gospel-centered principles (forgiveness, compassion, love, etc). Best of luck to you guys. Joy can still be yours. ruclips.net/video/xy94De9Hj9o/видео.html
Someday you boys will grow up...I hope.
Yes, I hope they grow up to be decent humans, like JD. 😂 My goodness what a dumb comment.
Hasn't happened yet
Where can I find the research and data you talk about at 3.20 that shows children raised in LDS homes are well adjusted?
I don't believe it exists and I don't think you can source it
Cardon throws out "facts" the same way Trump does; i.e.: just whatever BS comes into your mind, state it as fact.
@@senorbb2150 😂😂😂 omg. Literally rent free. People who voted for the guy aren’t this obsessed with him.
On tithing: “This isn’t a net positive for the church...” 100 billion dollars in church investment funds later...
yet only 120K per year to it's doctor-CEO
@@Ether-pb5gb
That’s why they got all that personal real property, eh?
@@suigeneris2663 Many in the 12 and first presidency already had millions before they came into their leadership positions. Of course they have personal real property. Before joining the Quorum of the Twelve, Renlund sold a piece of commercial property worth over $40 million. Uchdorf is also worth millions from his pre-church work. How long was Nelson a heart surgeon? I would hope that he has personal real property. I am barely 34, on a very modest salary, and own multiple pieces of property debt free. It's not too terribly hard to do once one is financially literate.
@@Ether-pb5gb I'm glad that they are doing so well for themselves. Maybe they could not take a salary so that they can stop raising the price to go on a mission driving members into debt to serve the church.
@@billy2395 with 60-80K missionaries, if they forsake their salary, that would give each missionary about $20 (twenty dollars). It takes more than that. $20 doesn't go far in the mission field. I am the only member in my family. I raised about 2-3K working while going to college, then I sold my car for another 1K, and my ward was generous enough to pick up the rest. I used to feel guilty about taking handouts from the members, but a buddy of mine who was in the Bishopric at the time told me that "with all of the tithing money that you will pay in your life, you will pay it back, I promise". And he is right. I am in my young 30s with 5 kids and I have paid back my mission many times over. The most important part about serving a mission is not the money, but about a desire to serve God, and being worthy. One day, it will be the job of my kids and myself to help pay for my children who serve missions. Who knows, maybe I will have to get rid of my phone and internet service, or my netflix account, or stop eating sweets, or maybe I will have to knock on more doors or take a 2nd/3rd job to help pay for their missions....or maybe I will take away the playstation from my kids and tell them to get a job when they are younger? I don't know, but I have faith that the Lord will provide. He hasn't let me down yet
8:05 huh? Like seriously what..? #1 How do your nonexistent surveys go? Ask someone what their happiness is on a scale of 1-10?
He's communicating a message that the church is controlling every member's decision. What hes doing is telling all members of the church who have problems, that their problems were caused by the church, and that if they just leave the church, their problems will go away.
It’s classic victim culture. Get people to be victims so they don’t address their issues and be accountable.
This is true. All your problems don’t go away by leaving the church.
And not all Mormons are necessarily happier! I was miserable!
But on average, they are happier. Significantly so.
@@WARDRADIOlies lol
What form of mormonism do these guys practice?! Because I know it's not the LDS church I've been a member of for 40years...
It's the type where they profit off of their religion by podcasting about it.
The "funnier" they are, the more views and subs they get.
Every Creator has the pull to act in ways that are not good, but doing so gets them more views. I know this because I got bigger than this channel is on social media, but then left because I was getting corrupted.
Take that corruption and add religion and morals to the equation, you get bashing and hating in the name of God and Jesus, which is not good, and is expressly what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints warns about other churches who have paid pastors and clergy who's whole salary and livelihood depends on growing their congregation and/or their church not dying.
Many anti lds people say the General Authorities of the LDS church are like this, but it is not true. The stipend they get is very reasonable and not over the top. They also could earn (and some do earn) way more than that 150kish stipend easily. Nelson was a heart surgeon, and easily has enough to retire on. Lund (the YM president) is a major businessman with many millions. Oaks was a Utah supreme court justice, and easily has enough money to live very comfortably without working.
I do think that Ward Radio isn't nearly as bad as other pastors and profiteers, as they don't use the Lord's name to bash. But they do profit and have their livelihood depend on how many people watch their videos. And that is a major problem.
And you can notice the difference between the host and guests. The guests are always better behaved, and the host is always more hyper and dopamine inducing
It’s absolutely hilarious to see how many people take time out of their day to watch a video they don’t believe just to make a snarky comment at you guys. I’m personally happy that you guys are putting out this content. Incredibly fun, and faith promoting.
Right? I was totally surprised to find that out
Exactly. 4,000,000 (MAYBE) active American members out of 350,000,000 people or 8,000,000 active (MAYBE) members out of 8,000,000,000 worldwide sure has these one time members in a tizzy. I’m baffled by it.
I can totally see someone saying "The food pyramid is an oppressively hierarchy."
Oh, many already are. Lol
Definitely thumbs down this video... I cannot believe anyone supports or donates money for this type of content, or that the LDS church would actually want to be tied in any way to this type of media.
The non-sequiturs, ambiguous and poor attempts to make comparisons, and outright insults only damage their platform and appear as extreme dishonesty and insecurity.
For those that want to understand what I mean, look up the terms Ad Hominem and Strawmanning.
I guess this is their idea of Christ-like love?
I don’t know how or why I stumbled on John’s RUclips - but I was suspect from day one. I have experience as a cpa for 20+ years and can read tax returns. It’s insane how much of the donations that the org receives goes right into his pockets. Also, I have learned he has been accused of sexual misconduct several times.
Also, in a post a few days ago, he presented it as if he has other paid employees, yet, per his tax return he has no other employees. In fact, I have read that he makes the people he is “helping” work for free and then takes ownership of their work they do on any social media outlet.
Again, I don’t understand why Im so invested, other than I think he is a fraud and using people when they are at their weakest. It’s just wrong.
I found out about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints around age 14, and didn't know the book of Mormon existed, and I immersed myself in the New Testament, reading everyday, and praying, and felt a strong desire for baptism and had 1 brief experience with Elders of the Church of Jesus Christ and it was permeated by the Holy Spirit. I read the New testament, kind of forgetting that, but when I knew baptism was a must, I'm grateful that the Lord led me to the true Church of Jesus Christ. I was brought up basically non denominational, but I went to Sunday school as a child and always felt the truth of the Christ. I'm grateful for the faith and righteousness of the Latter Day Saints
I like how when they don’t like what John is saying they just resort to ad hominem(s). “Look at him cheating on the teleprompter.”
It is astounding how petty they are... This is NOT APOLOGETICS... They give what they really are away... SAD💦
If you truly believe what you are saying and video editing is part of the process. A teleprompter shouldn’t be necessary.
@@lillywhite3833 Very true, I agree 💯 %.
@@TAMNinjaGlare Right? You hit the nail on the head with that statement.
@@TAMNinjaGlare That's right and if you are filled with the Holy Spirit... a teleprompter should NEVER be required... Whatever happened to traveling without “purse or script”?
Joseph Smith said it best,
"A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and Salvation"
Lectures on Faith 6:7
...Drop the mic
32:15 Tithing money does not go to helping the poor and needy. Just sayin.
33:02 And the church leaders that receive a stipend also get medical coverage, housing, free college for kids and grandkids, plus much much more. Not really "giving up so much money in order to serve"
Well past retirement age too.
You seem to overlook the fact that in their professions they could earn vastly more than the Church provides, as they dedicate ALL their time available to service.
@@depsaayt45 So. you are using misdirection to a straw-man. What surgeon is still operating in their 90's. The point is not that they took a pay cut. Its transparency - there is none! The information available is because of leaked data. Sorry - but you don't get the moral high ground on this. Remember when the church was newly formed the leadership JS included wanted a living wage and asked for so much the membership VOTED NO and instead gave them 80 acres. When did we in this current "later days" get to "common consent" vote on their stipend and benefits? One more thing - In August 1844 the Quorum voted themselves exempt from paying tithing.
Oh and they don't spend ALL their time. They each get a whole month off a year and random weeks. But I would imagine they try to "stay in character." As any good mormon should.
@@accountinglivinghome5774 Yes, Joseph Smith had it easy, being driven from state to state and then brutally murdered by a wicked mob when they were helplessly and wrongly imprisoned. Look up the apologies offered by the State of Missouri regarding the "extermination order" and the apology from the State of Illinois for the unlawful murder of Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum.
The standard of Truth has been erected. No Unhallowed Hand Can Stop The Work From Progressing...
Enemy you tubers post things like, "millions are leaving the Mormon Church" while in General Conference, the Church announces 20 new Temples to be built. Anyone who is sincerely searching for truth can find it if they so desire. The Church is wonderful whether you like it or not.
"All Good Will Be Attacked," JIM ROHN.
@@accountinglivinghome5774 None of the apostles are called in their 90's. These men are generally called when they're 50-65 years old.
With all your talent and ability you debunked absolutely nothing. Noise
Lifetime LDS (still active) member here(50+yrs). You guys have misdirected on literally every point . Literally every point. Please realize these tactics only reinforce what John is saying.
Hi guys, can you do a video on the second anointing? Also, Adam is god doctrine would be great.
It seems like EVERY exmember is OBSESSED with the second annointing? Brad Witbeck answered this question in the the livestream and said that they won't be answering it.
@@sparky062002 Chicken!
I am drawn to people that Stand for something.
Tell us what you stand for John. What do you find that is useful and good, that is inspiring.
Tell us how we can be redeemed.
Tell us how we can find eternal happiness.
Tell us john how to love our neighbor.
Inspire us to live a better life.
John Dehlin must live an unhappy life to dedicate so much of his time and energy to tearing something down that lifts so many people up.
@davidfrey5654 the church causes many many people to commit suicide and robs them of their wealth. It is a huge bane on society. It promotes regressive ideals and as a result harms the rest of the country.
15:16 Now, Kwaku, let’s not pretend that the intro to the Book of Mormon didn’t used to say that the characters in the book are the "principal ancestors of the American Indians" prior to 2006. If you need, there are plenty of online dictionaries that will give you the definition of the word "principal." 😉
Principle definition “First in order of importance; main” Oxford dictionary
What is your gotcha
@@augi2986 Not sure what you mean. My gotcha? I’m not trying to lure him in a trap. lol Just asking him to stop pretending that part of the intro wasn’t changed from "principal ancestors of the American Indians" to "among the ancestors of the American Indians" after all those DNA tests were done in many Native American tribes and it was found that their "principal ancestors" actually came from East Asia. Kwaku is a smart guy and knows his church history. He’s aware of all the arguments against the church’s truth claims. He’s also well aware that the church used to claim that most of the ancestors of Native Americans descended from Lehi. At 15:16 in this video, however, he acts as though the church has always only ever claimed that the characters in the Book of Mormon were "among the ancestors of the American Indians."
No gotcha questions involved. Just a challenge for Kwaku to be more honest with his listeners/viewers. 😊
@@Louisianish I misunderstood my b
@@augi2986 C’est tout bon. Todo bien. It’s all good.
Your approach to combat who and what you view to be anti-mormon is extremely counterproductive. Your team comes off as casual when talking about serious topics of faith. People in the church are struggling, and their struggle is not to be taken lightly. The way you approach people's doubt does not bolster faith but pushes them in the opposite direction.
Thanks for the feedback. Elaborate if you wish.
Work on audio volume boys. Tried to listen but it possibly
Physically hurt
This does not look cool, guys. I can understand if you want to vent and rip on Dehlin with the boys, on your own time, I pass no judgement on that. But this is a video you're putting out to the world. I seriously don't understand how an audience is supposed to react to this. It's not really a 'debunking' video (vast majority of your comments are about who Dehlin is as a person, which totally skips over the content of what he's saying), nor is there much 'entertainment/personality' to sustain the hour, because it's so mean spirited. What is going on?
It goes to show the type of people "active" "faithful" mormons are. So glad, I'm no longer part of that.
This group puts many people who disagree with them and even have left the church on the show. JD is fodder #1 because he’s the biggest wolf in sheep’s clothing I’ve ever come across. I started watching JD years ago, his show is deceptively titled, it’s intentional. Create doubt, use psychological tactics to do it, destroy faith, (ITS CALLED FAITH FOR A REASON) and then dump the results in the streets. He reminds me of someone…😮
never heard over the pulpit that other churches are inferior? Go look up Brad Wilcox saying other churches are "just playing church".
Why fornication is next to murder is because it’s harder to make amends. If you lie you can go and tell the truth. If you steal you can give back what you took. But you can’t erase the effects of cheating or of loss of innocence. So we warn our youth so they understand the damage these sins do to ourselves and others in this life. Also, the Bible teaches this so why doesn’t every Christian church?
I give you credit for allowing comments. That’s something.
But dang, you guys aren’t doing the church any favors. Anyone with even a cursory understanding of logical fallacies can see right through your attacks.
Stories of parents, not mine though saying they’d prefer their children protect their chasteness with their lives.
Those are great parents whatever religion they belong to.
I'm guessing you guys got paid for making this? Everybody is selling something...
No I’m pretty sure they aren’t they don’t have any ads
@@harryhenderson2479 bruh u right. im long gone from the church now 😭😭
@@harryhenderson2479 pretty good i just decided this isn’t how i want to live my life, the mental gymnastics, rigidness etc. rough couple of months especially with my parents but now we’re all good
@@harryhenderson2479 you too man 🤘
32:26 Yes he did. He served in Guatemala. And he lived in my house. I've known him since 1990.
Studies have shown that within about 5 years of starting, the average young woman who serves a mission will surpass women who did not serve in every measure of success INCLUDING education level!
My goodness, you’re first counter argument was saying he was wrong by saying you guys chose Mormonism because it’s the one true church yet two seconds before that you agreed. This is why we can’t take your apologetics seriously, the man didn’t even get a chance to finish all he was saying. You guys just pat yourselves on the back like you’ve done something great.
When slander meets apologetics. This is what slander looks like. I like John. I had respect for Kwaku. Not now though. He's hanging with the cool kids, throwing rocks in his own glass house.
Love the channel....love the snark. Absolutely HATE the food pyramid. Seriously, we need ELEVEN....11??!?!??! Servings of bread a day? Like, how on earth is that healthy for anyone except the center on a football team. I mean, when I was 17 that was no problem, but at 39, the 11 servings are not helping me lose the excess food storage I keep on my love handles. 🤣
Please keep the content coming!!
@Juliette Tellimm Hi Juliette! Would you like to set up a Zoom call with me to discuss the BS that you are hearing? Would love to talk with you about your concerns on the church. Let me now!
If you are a member of the church and do not think that your reputation is important you are in very different wards and stakes than I have ever been in. I have never been in a bad ward or had a bad bishop but your reputation as a "mormon" is important and what he is saying makes sense to me. It does to you also unless you are completely detached from what you are spouting here. Why do you think so many of the temple worthiness questions involve how you treat others in your daily life. Talk all you want but what Mr. Dehlin is saying here is correct and accurate in MY opinion.
When did contracts become a part of becoming a member of the church?
Pastriarchy?!! I'd volunteer for a calling there.
I've never seen a contract in the church what contract is he talking about?? I got baptized at 8 read the book of Mormon @16 for the first time on my own and prayed about it and because of the HUNDREDS of times the SPIRIT bore WITNESSES of its Truths to my Soul while i read it. When I got on my knees to ask my LOVING HEAVENLY FATHER IF IT WAS TRUE. the answer I got by voice in my head. YOU ALREADY KNOW.
“You’re not religious Santa Claus.”
Literally laughed out loud.
We can’t take you jokesters seriously! Your credibility is lacking. Any real truth seeking person see through the Ad hominem attacks that you do against people.
Yeah, why not engage with him in a more respectful, intellectual way? Why not have him on the show and have a candid, but friendly back and forth?
I am a truth seeker .. I CAN take these guys seriously.. I am grateful to the LORD for them ... they are blessing lives with THE TRUTH!!! Keep going guys ... you are bringing people back to the LORD !!
In Spencer W. Kimball's book THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS, there is a chapter title The Sin next to murder about serial transgretions.
This is great. You guys are doing Gods work. Dehlin is crazy.
In what respect is John Dehlin crazy?
@@charlesmendeley9823 Very biter angry man. Being biter and angry clouds your judgment.
@@charlesmendeley9823 did he have a single sentence without a blatant falsehood based in hate?
How do these guys not know jd served a mission? All is fair in love and war. I enjoyed this video but you should get to know the podcast host you are ripping on a bit more before you rip on him
These guys are just embarrassing. Mormonism is just embarrassing, and these goons are the best they have to offer? LMAO bless their little hearts
In every “bless your heart” there is a teeny tiny FU. 😜
Agreed that some of their statements are stupid, but John also needs some pushback, he gets pretty ridiculous at times and nobody calls him out
I think a big part of the difference of opinions between these guys and John Dehlin is their age difference. A lot of what John is saying applies to the church he grew up in, but has since changed. So when a young Mormon hears John's description they just assume John is misrepresenting the church, when in reality it's just that they have had different experiences with a church that has evolved with the times.
Agreed, they all need to do some more research to find out what the church was before it had to correct itself in order to survive.
Correct. The younger generations are getting more and more water downed Mormonism.
@@kendrahandy1937 100 percent, My mormon experience is different from my Dad's and his is different from my grandfather's. And that's good that they are changing (though at a snails pace) but they hide what the church was to the younger generation. If the temple ceremony was the one that my Dad went through today, people would leave in droves. It didn't change because of revelation. It was changed out of necessity. And if you're a young mormon and don't know what I'm talking about, do your research.
Full disclosure; I really like John, so take what I have to say with a grain of Salt Lake salt. John started with a show called "Pillars of my Faith" where he described his own Faith Crisis. Everybody goes through it. Some survive and some wind up on shows like John's. John for the most part simply interviews people about their own Faith Crisis. Those who NEED to talk obout it in an open forum. I don't believe he's out to destroy the LDS church whatsoever. But that's what this webcast would leave you to believe. I say, go watch a few Mormom Stories episodes. Do some research before you start bashing John Dehlin.
Except that people like myself who grew up in the same era as JD can call JD out on his exaggerating. Losing faith is not fun. I truly pray that someday these vile attackers of the church and therefore God, face some Bible or Book of Mormon justice. Being struck dumb, or shocked, or drowned (😂😢), or made mute, would start to happen. We see digital stoning of our prophets so maybe the punishments will be digitally handed out? Not sure.
In JD's defense, there is a BOM scripture that highlights the seriousness of premarital sex in comparison to murder.
But as a child, it was explained to me that they are both very serous sins in a similar way because of how precious and sacred life is, and both of those sins toy with life and disrespect it.
A modern day Korihor
You guys don't even understand the meaning of the first vision. When Moroni tells Joseph that none of the churches are true, they're all corrupt and he's been chosen by God to "Restore" the true teachings to the earth. Otherwise, why do we even need the B.O.M.? Yes, the church teaches and stands on the principal that all other churches and faiths are not true, or rather false. And you should not follow false teaching. You don't even know your own religion. I'm shocked.
Who told Joseph that the church he should unite with wasn’t on earth at the time? Are you saying Moroni did?
They taught false teachings mingled with scripture. joeseph smith himself stated that the Methodist church was the closest to the true church it didn’t have the full doctrine of Christ Jesus was correct when he told joeseph to join none of the churches and that Joseph will have the opportunity to restore his church’s doctrine to the fullness which joeseph did
These guys are so pathetic. Mormonism is dying and they’re trying so hard to defend its lies. Let it go y’all.
These guys are the WORST! Do they think they are making Mormons sound BETTER? Seriously gross....any church that puts guys like these on a pedestal is pure evil....
Lol
Care to comment as to where the belief of the 7 Gods of creation came from? According to Kwaku's interview with Radio Free Mormon, Joseph Smith was a part of a council of seven gods who created the earth. I had never heard this belief prior to Kwaku's interview. I did several searches and couldn't find anything regarding that. Do you mind sharing the evidence of this nuanced Mormon belief that is not promoted by the first presidency? Not even Fair Mormon was that bold.
Also, how do you answer for the bate and switch that was pulled on Radio Free Mormon? Those podcast hosts were under the impression that there would be a reasonable discussion to draw common ground between believers and nonbelievers. I don't need to go into detail, as you know what you've done and to what I am referring. Any comment?
The 7 gods belief is BS and isn’t a thing
I’m not Mormon, but if these fools are any representation of the LDS Church I would want no part of it. The mockery and ridicule of other people and churches is a really embarrassing look for the church your represent.
Git em MNM!!!!!!!! This is what I have such a problem with is the fact that the anti's like to tell others what we believe as if it is shameful and wrong...
This is the only RUclips video I have ever seen that has more dislikes than likes
the forces of the dark one are strong with Dehlin and his minions
Actually, Joe Biden's White House videos have way more dislikes than likes (and that's with Google/RUclips removing huge numbers of dislikes).
To give these guys their due, John D does get sloppy sometimes...but still, defending Mormonism is like defending flat-earthism.
Does that even hold weight? Obviously we don't know who is hitting those likes or dislikes. My response to that, is..."MEH."
@@LatterDaisySaint obviously it’s RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION.
Check CNN on RUclips. You'll be surprised
No one is condemning the church they are doing it to themselves with documented abuse and intentional financial misuse of funds.
Explain.
If all the Christian churches ⛪️ were seen as “abominations” and the LDS church has the “fullness” of the gospel that does imply superiority.
I have listened to a lot of John Dehlin "lengthy" podcasts. He was an LDS missionary, a straight-laced 'peter-priesthood' type that, in spite of his cultural devotions, he 'honestly' admits never having a personal revelation or conviction from God regarding his personal faith or the Restoration. This is the saddest statement of his religious life, that whatever he was doing or not doing, thinking or believing or not, he never was "plugged-in" as a branch in the vine needs to be connected in order to have the living sap transmitted: ie: the gift of the Holy Ghost. As Joseph Smith taught, baptism without the focus and object of obtaining the Holy Ghost, is compared to baptizing a bag of sand! (paraphrase, easy quote to find in the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith) NOW, giving that insight into his life, he indeed represents and serves a marketable niche of people like himself, who never have "plugged-in" and THEREFORE have experienced a chain of personal incongruities that do indeed produce confusion and stress. This may be some understanding insight, if anyone cares to have it. Apart from this, his current mentality of criticizing the Church is something else, GIVEN that HIS position is one of "I AM RIGHT, MY VIEWS ARE SUPERIOR, MORMONS ARE AN AFRONT TO ME". The laughable/cryable part is, that he believes in "evolution", the purposeless Godless Chance production and meaningless end of life and everything, so why or how can he consistently care about anything??!! He does provide a strong challenge to the weak amongst us, just as the drop-out from a school might hang around the playground to try attracting other students to his 'club'. He serves a purpose, just as Lucifer serves a purpose, to provide "opposition" in all things. He may just be an 'Alma the younger' in a phase of rebellion and blindness, because he certainly was raised around much religion and has passion that, if "plugged-in" to the true vine, he could become like Saul becoming Paul. I have profited from some of Dehlin's critiques, because I look for some value or insight into the personal trauma he interviews in so many people. "We", the 'Church', do have enough natural man mixed in with our truth and culture and history, that we can certainly profit from being the wise man of Proverbs who benefits from criticism. It is good to develop an answer to his opposition, much as you boys are doing a work of. Thank you for your work. / Doug in Tucson.
Funny how JD didn't resign from the church and asked not to be excommunicated, but since he was he justifies his choices that led to his excomminication by trying to proclaim what a terrible church it is and makes 6 figures bashing it.
John Dehlin should know better given he was raised in the church. His tone after, compared to before, his excommunication has changed significantly over time. I found his earlier work more intellectually satisfying compared to his more recent work.
part of it was because he had to be more couched in his narrative under threat of excommunication from his stake leaders (watch his videos on his excommunication taped interviews)
everything John is saying is spin. I’m so sick of John and he is the perfect example of “you can leave the church, but you can’t leave the church alone!!”
Thanks for covering this story. John Dehlin reminds me of Brigham Young's 19th wife Ann Eliza Webb. She divorced Brigham and went on speaking tour after writing and publishing her autobiography "Wife #19". She spoke at sold out concert halls where people clamored to see her and hear her story. Like Ann Eliza, John may be doing damage to the church membership, but honestly he is hurting himself the most. The church will live through the storm.
32:29 As a loving and caring person. This hurts my heart about the tithing. I have known may people who have gone without food, gone into debt, suffered long and hard to maintain tithing... While the LDS Church has a minimum of $100 billion in assets store away. How is this "helping people?
33:00 laughing claiming that in lots of "poor" areas in some parts of South America and Europe.. Then its not a net positive? That everyone is required to provide 10% no matter what.. And where does that money go then??? buying cattle ranches??.. building massive churches and the mall in Salt Lake City.. Why laugh at this though? So saying that leaders give up money to serve for free, as many members provide their tithe and time doing work for facilities..
And yet no compassion or understanding for the tithing burden on some members? John and others who have left the church just let people feel accepted and understood... while you offer nothing but laughing at people and unsubstantiated wish wash about tithing..
I know this video is old, it just breaks my heart to see so much hate and misinformation. At last consider citing data if you're claiming that John or anyone is lying. Cite your sources in the description, not too difficult right?
Why would you go into debt to pay tithing? It is 10% of your gain.
@@js2art1 10% of their income, no exceptions. It’s supposed to be paid first, before any other bills, before food, renting, etc.
Shortly after having our first born, I was laid off from work and my wife and I had nothing. We continued to pay tithing on whatever income we could get. And the church was there to help us by providing food and assistance with some of our bills. That 10% came back to us ten fold during that time.
One day Kwaku and his boys will leave Mormonism. Their days are numbered. The more you try to prove Mormonism, the more ridiculous, the more alienated from reality, the more crazy you become. Until it clicks in your mind - fuck this. Been there done that.
So what’s your story Siphamandla?
I’m not a member of the LDS CHURCH, but I’ve watched quite a few videos by John D., and he often bashes the LDS church. So why is it wrong for these fellows to present an Ad Hominem argument against him???
I just can't get past the Joseph Smith thing. If someone had some good material explain why and how that the story is true I'm listening but... seems pretty out there
Hugh Nibley said that sin is a waist of time. This has an obvious definition.
*waste
I really enjoy this show and this discussion. But..... i also really wish the host would not talk as much and let his guests speak more. Just a bit of constructive criticism because i think you are doing a very good thing here. : )
Yes ... he does interrupt once in awhile, but, is he as bad as Sean Hannity ... maybe they're twins.
@@harryabelpotter9630 The host of Midnight Mormons is doing a very good work with this show and other projects he is involved in. I am very proud of him. ; )
To: @@tadgriffin1977 ... Well, there's a lot of things to be proud of ~ but the interruptions aren't one of those things.
@@harryabelpotter9630 Well stated my friend!
The food pyramid analogy isn’t a good one
He keeps saying that we give all the things he lists to “the church”
But as followers of Christ we are giving all the things he listed to Christ, to build up his kingdom
Just like the followers of Christ did in the New Testament
Am I missing something…
Word of wisdom is still a recommendation of the Lord that the prophets have chosen to make a requirement like tithing to enter the celestial kingdom in earth, the temple.
This individual presented a distorted version of the truth that caters to worldly desires. His arguments are similar to those of other Anti-Christ figures mentioned in the Book of Mormon, who twisted religious teachings for their own benefit. It's highly likely that he is an ex-Mormon, as he wouldn't be able to sound so convincing otherwise. You, Ward radio are like the modern-day sons of Heleman. Your Mothers must be proud of you, Guys!
Are you guys, like 7? About to be baptised? I don't think Christ needs any more representatives like this.
Evangelicals don’t accept LDS baptism. If one leaves the church and desires to join another church, it’s not only Catholics who deny the validity of “Mormon baptism.”
And to be fair, anyone who converts to the LDS faith is baptized again by one
“having authority.”
I am very confused... is this a Fair Mormon video? I thought Fair Mormon represented Christ.
Regardless of whatever outright bizzare "facts" or "ideas" you hold to be true. Why are you attacking this man? Why are you so disrespectful? Keep doing "God's work"! You are really making Him look good!
This is so so so pathetic! FairMormon you will again. Everything you do makes people leave the One and Only True Church!
Chris Wright. Did you do mind altering drugs while listening to this? They are attacking his words. They are refuting his words. They are not committing the Ad Homonym logical fallacy. A person who is accurately quoted is being respected. I don't see how they made him look good.
@@Hamann9631 Please don't call me Christ. That is just weird and probably offensive to a lot of people.
@@chriswright8892 It was a typo. Thank you for informing me about that mistake. I have edited it out.
Amazes me that people take these children seriously. I say children because they present themselves like children. These are not adult conversations. If I was on the fence towards mormonism this would be the camel straw. This type of behavior is only going to push more people out of the church. This behavior is much more destructive than the CES letter or John Delin ever has been.
“Education, if at all”? BYU, BYU-Idaho, BYU-Hawai’i, Ensign College, Pathway Worldwide. The Church is doing more to educate the entire world than any other entity on the planet.
What....?
Seriously? Lol, the Catholics have more schools just in Mexico alone
This is the BEST THING EVAHHHH!!! xoxo. I truly love the relaxed approach to Dehlin drivel.
Why is Kwaku El, a black guy, in the Mormon Church? This is a church that literally needed God's "approval" in order to allow black people to participate in its temple ordinances which is required for salvation LOL. This was done, in spite of the fact that their scripture supposedly states that "all are alike unto God". They weren't even following their own scriptures!
Prophet: "Hi God, can black people hold the priesthood now?"
God in 1978: "Yeah, sure"
I can't tell you how many times I did a hard belly laugh while watching this. You guys are just fantastic.
Also, there was 666 comments before I posted this.... So sorry for taking that away from....
Wish we could have kuaku come to thanksgiving dinner! He’d spice it up for sure!