In which case Caan could be predicting Trenzalore, in the timeline which never came to pass. I think he would have worded the statement differently if he meant the TARDIS though.
I’d say Clara fits the eternal death considering all her persons die whenever they meet the doctor as well as she’s also caught a second in between death.
Another similarity between Journey's End and Empire of Death is that the stakes go to the point of the destruction of all life in the universe (and beyond in the case of Journey's End).
Caan's prophecies dealt with what he saw in Stolen Earth, and also the Timelords returning. This is because Caan went back into the Time War itself. Davros himself said this, and he does not lie when it comes to a feat his Daleks perform. His prophecies deal with 10's entire story, that ended with his regeneration.
About three-man, David Tennant played 3 Doctors: 10th, Metacrisis and 14th. But in fact he played even 4 Doctors because in Journey Ends he regenirated into himself.
On the comparison with Journey’s End & Empire Of Death, I think the reason why Journey’s End works better & is more liked than Empire Of Death is that it does at least have a lot of good character moments, isolated brilliant scenes and there is (or should I say now ‘was’) consequences for the universe being saved with Donna. Empire Of Death has basically none of that. Also, The Stolen Earth is still a genuinely fantastic isolated episode on its own, while The Legend Of Ruby Sunday in comparison is decent at best & is basically all just set up for Empire Of Death
I think it might be possible that Sutekh survived the time vortex because he was clinging to the TARDIS that whole time, which has a force field that gives you some protection and also allows you to breath a short distance away from the TARDIS in space, so once Sutekh was thrown away from the TARDIS he had nothing to protect him. Maybe. I dunno.
The Doctor is and Always be The TARDIS's companion. :D The TARDIS is the Silent Main Character. Even the Fourth Doctor called her "Old Girl" or something similar if I remember right.
Clara had an everlasting death by jumping into the Doctors timestream and dying over and over again. The three fold Doctor in my view was the 14th Doctor.
Honestly, I don't believe Sutekh is dead. Perhaps he has been reverted to his old self, losing his god hood, and the next episode he appears in, the doctor has to prevent Sutekh from regaining his God hood, and doing a repeat of what he did in the empire of death, except this time the doctor would also be in danger as you wouldn't have the complication of Ruby's mother. In any reality, I am hoping to see a Dalek episode in series 2, my favorite reoccurring who villains, and with a new look. I think the death to the daleks silver and black would go particularly well with the time war casings.
Maybe Dalek Caan could only see the timeline from before the events of the big bang in series 5? Or some other time alterations has changed the show to a different time line than the one dalek caan was viewing
Tbf on the time vortex point. Although how they got Sutekh there is dumb the vortex killing him does make sense. Sutekh survived by clinging on the TARDIS and using it as a shield of sorts. Allowing him to be unaffected by it. But when thrown directly into the vortex itself it killed him.
I suppose that makes sense, but Sutekh didn't need the TARDIS to survive travelling through the vortex in Pyramids of Mars, it makes even less sense now that the Tales of the TARDIS version uses the new time vortex effect for when he arrives
@@dalekbumpsWasn’t that because in Pyramids Of Mars, it wasn’t the time vortex? They call it a ‘time corridor’ and use a different effect that they normally use for the vortex.
@@Gatetraveller1 in the original version of the story that's certainly the case, but the updated effects imply that it's the time vortex given as it looks identical to the effect from the new title sequence
@@dalekbumps yeah that I'm not really a fan of. They only made it the vortex for tales of the TARDIS to give a reason for how he managed to get onto the TARDIS itself. But that just creates another plot hole entirely
The everlasting death could be the tardis when it was exploding in the Pandorica episodes since they had too revert the timeline just to save the universe
2:26 idk why this reminds me more of Clara's fate than Donna's. The Doctor also saw her as very special, at least 12 did with everything he went through,
I think Ruby should have been revealed to be some God of life the show built up her to be some supernatural being with a mystery. Maybe since Sutekh was god of death Ruby would be the opposite perhaps after everyone dies sutekh can't kill Ruby and this triggers some ability to restore life reversing Sutekh damage and weakening Sutekh resulting in hid death
Could an ‘Everlasting Death’ possibly refer to Bill becoming a cyberman? I mean sure her consciousness survives afterwards but as the toymaker said ‘Well That’s Alright Then!’
To an extent, I think so. Before her conversion she waited 10 years for the doctor and even after her conversion she was able to resist her cyber programming for a while Though the ‘most faithful companion’ could refer to many other companions( Rose, Martha, Clara, Etc) I still believe Bill could be argued as the most faithful
Wouldnt Clara work, she was frozen in time the second before death and she had known the doctor for one of, if not the longest continuous period of time
Maybe a cop out answer but I assumed through seeing time and space all at once everything sort of blends and the predictions Caan saw are fated to constantly repeat. The Doctor will always fight against himself whether physically or mentally. All the companions he meets will eventually have to die whether literally or metaphorically. And the Daleks will always fail to the point they might as well have never existed in the first place. Getting some of their largest victories taken from them through time travel. Like the victory against the time lords
I don’t usually do this but I want to know if anyone else felt this. I haven’t watched the whole season because I’ve found it super difficult to get into, it genuinely felt like I was watching a different show. And it’s occurred to me, where are the aliens in this season? Something that Doctor Who has never failed to capture is the image of a huge universe bursting at the seams with life. But this season doesn’t seem to feature much by way of aliens, most of the monsters and enemies featured seem to be either supernatural or in some way artificial. The result is that the universe feels weirdly unpleasantly empty.
I think it was about 2/8 episodes were about/had aliens. With a bit of an alien planet stuff in 2 more but not as memorable. I think thats part of the problem with the combo of shorter season mixed with more fantasy elements. To me every season of dr who has a different vibe, but i am aware this season was supposed to bring in younger viewers
Kind of think it would make sense for 14 and Donna to become the Hybrid to give purpose to their reunion. Dalek Cann said ‘this would always have happened’ Meaning they were always going to meet, he only advanced their destiny. So if they were destined to meet in star beast, leading to wild blue yonder, then BiGeneration. It allow the doctors destiny to both become the DrDonna Hybrid And maybe prompt 15 into a spontaneous regeneration to become the Timless child to reboot Gallifeay
I’m probably in the minority in this, but I didn’t mind Sutekh’s defeat. Yeah he was traveling in the Vortex, but not on his own, he stuck himself to the Tardis like an involuntary tumor. (Granted I’m biased, I just really like Sutekh) The rope and whistle is a bit silly, I’ll say that at least, but all and all, I enjoyed it, and I especially like it when villains succeed in their endeavors (like how Sutekh did here).
I don't care if there was cast appeal with journeys end But saying that it's ending was more satisfying It's not impossible to believe that the daleks could be disrupted by controls on their ship The original story had them impossible to function without touching the floor Invasion earth theyre disrupted by radiation of the planet they're invading Planet they were frozen Emperor of the daleks in the comic had a virus made it impossible for them to shoot straight which they didn't fix and effected them in remembrance Daleks are flawed Their creator is flawed But we've had many, many occasions to see them That's why we love them but it's kinda the point The difference is sutekh had one encounter with the doctor, whatever they did with him would have been bad and no matter what you say that will not change The doctor may have well said walkies, it was just as stupid I could come up with a more satisfying ending
@@snakedaemongaming6590 the thing I find ridiculous is less the fact that the Daleks were disrupted by the machinery (though technobabble does a LOT of the heavy lifting there) It's more the fact that these controls exist in the first place. We see Davros manipulate aspects of the Crucible through his chair, like turning the light for Dalek Caan on, so he'd have no need for an independent control panel Now the logical response to that could be: "maybe the Daleks had separate controls that they didn't want Davros to touch", but there are two rebuttals to this. First, if they didn't trust Davros with these controls, why are they placed in his prison cell? And second, why would Daleks need physical buttons? The control panel set is positioned too high up for Davros to use, and the buttons are not designed to fit any Dalek manipulator design that we see in the story. Whichever way you look at it, it doesn't make any sense
@@dalekbumps yeah but then neither is a human face and we all now about the bitchslap of the daleks (sorry evil) And yet think about this nightmare on eden is a similar thing, I'm gonna fly away in my ship from my device that can snatch up things Just one occasion off the top of my head Let's just say it was probably created by davros when he rebuilt the daleks for himself to use then they turned on him again (funnier that way) and kept him prisoner Again, it's funnier, as this just emphasises that he can't create them to serve him
My theory is the “most faithful companion facing everlasting death” could be interpreted to mean Clara. As the impossible girl she is the most faithful companion, helping the pre Trenzalore incarnations either as echoes or in person, and becoming one of the few companions to truly care for “the doctor” instead of A Doctor. Her death is also the most final and unambiguous in new who. You can’t escape the raven, once your time is up it will find you. We see her death on screen, and despite 12s best efforts in hell bent, the Revived Chara isn’t actually “alive” and she defies the doctors wishes by willingly returning to the raven (eventually). Now was this RTDs intention in the stolen earth? Obviously not. The intention was for it to be Donna, even if future stories have contradicted that. But unless the prophecy returns in a future story to officially change the prophecy to something that will happen in the upcoming series, this Clara theory is my own personal Headcanon.
Threefold-man. 15, 16+, and the Valyard Everlasting Death. Death of the Doctor’s Tardis perhaps? End of Everything Dalek. Some final end for the Dalek, perhaps through the corruption of their evil into something less irredeemable through a returned Sec?
I wouldn't say 'plot contrivances' or 'deus ex macina' because while there are certain scenes of ex machina the final victory doesn't really. The console would have been designed and installed by Davros. He would want an exit strategy in case the Daleks turned on him so having an override to the station would make sense. And when Donna said 'wait for the Doctor' that wasn't a case of forgetting the DoctorDonna. It was a case of waiting for another solution. Rather than the two metacrisis making snap decisions. As for Martha's characterisation in threatening to use the Osterhagen Key, she was acting under orders and considering that she spent a year wondering the Earth I would say that would probably mess you up a bit. But yeah the idea of 'bringing death to death' and Sutekh dying in the vortex again was a stretch. I'm hoping the idea was to leave the door open for another return.
I have a theory that Louise's identity being obscured is more than just a slap in the mystery box trope. I think the TARDIS was protecting her. Why? Sutekh was atop the TARDIS for a VERY long time, so he's bound to have at least some awareness of the more recurring tropes in the Doctor's life, namely the Mystery Box. The TARDIS and Memory TARDIS theorized(correctly) that Sutekh would recognize the Trope, and become obsessed with whatever potential threat it had to his power, buying the Doctor and Ruby the time they needed to defeat him.
@@dalekbumps that could be the case. I see it as the Time Strategist is on a higher level beyond any dalek. It sees everything. I believe he calls him the false prophet because none of them really come to happen. (Except for the doctor being 3). As Caan could see certain events i see him using the idea of being a "prophet" for his own gain. 🤔 What do you reckon ? It could be a bit of both 😉
@@Djayscratcher98 possibly a bit of both, Caan definitely used his prophecies for his own gain, but also from what we hear in the Time War audios the Time Strategist claims to be able to see all of time and space but he isn't omniscient, so maybe his view of time and space is also skewed? I've always found it interesting that when the Time Strategist is listing aspects of the Daleks' future, he says "The Cult of Skaro, Dalek Caan the false prophet, the New Paradigm" as if Caan and the false prophet are two separate entities. It's possible that he's saying "Dalek Caan: The False Prophet" but his intonation implies a distinction between the two. It might be nothing but I think it's interesting to consider
@@dalekbumps i thought that too. I think somwhat the same, i believe they see the normal Caan and prophet caan as somwhat two creatures. Almost like they dont want to taint the name of the beloved cult of skaro. As they are ment to be the best of the species. Legends, Role models so to speak. The time strategist utterd that with disgust in his tone. Got to love dalek time travel 🤣
The Doctor: If you're so good at seeing the future why did your vision of everything Dalek being destroyed last like one incarnation? Caan: Same reason we couldn't kill The Doctor: Ah, plot armor
how you feeling about the rumours that Martha will be back for a spin off? I hope we do, ity would be nice to get a companion centric spin off that also does the Sea Devil's justice. whether thhey can pull it off is a whole other thing.
@@dominickeijzer5844 Malice = Meta crisis tennant destroying all the Daleks (fulfilling the prophecy) Mischief = our good old fashion Doctor Misery = Donna being miserable (undone in the star beast)
I think empire of death relates better to silence will fall when the question is answered as sutekh was going to kill the doctor and bring silence to the universe upon finding out the answer to who rubys mum is
Really dislike how they did Sutekh in Legend/Empire. Quite a character assassination and he's been much more terrifying in Big Finish/Expanded Universe, no appearance of his iconic masked form with the green eyes of agony. Might be the last portrayal Gabriel Woolf does of Sutekh and that's really a sad possibility because it's such a bum note to end things on. As for Dalek Caan, I don't think he's a genuine prophet with temporal precognition, he's just insane and conned the Daleks into hearing what they wanted to hear. The Time Strategist denounced Caan as a false prophet and I'd consider him or the Time Controller to be the closest thing to a genuine prophet the Daleks ever had as a time-sensitive without insanity impeding their logic.
You could interpret Dalek Caan saying someone will die as the DoctorDonna Dying and not Donna herself. The DoctorDonna finally died when both Donna and Rose let the regeneration energy free in The Start Beast. (IDK it could be a stretch)
Hey! Forgive me if this isn't welcome, but I struggle a little with the transitions you use between clips. They can be pretty distracting and a little irritating, meaning I usually just listen to your videos rather than watching them. Just a normal jump cut would probably work better imo. Don't worry too much though, I'll still be listening!!
Not really, he said it would be the "end of everything Dalek" but they show up in the next series He also promises one of the companions an "everlasting death" which never happens either It's like Rose's "this is the story of how I died" from Doomsday, just RTD baiting the audience
See as much as I love Donna being back her return just pure s***ts on her story arc from S4 When it was first announced she was coming back in the 60th i thought that made so much sense as of course she'd be back, with 14 questioning 'if destiny exitsts then its heading for Donna Noble' in the trailer, as her propehcy still is that 'she is the most important woman in creation', destined to save the universe whether with a magic Dalek keyboard that stops unviersal extinction, or whatever The prophecy never stated that thered only be an finite number of times she would do so... And then the 60th airs and okay Donna then helps stops half of London going up with the Meep but then...thats it. She does virtually nothing else in the remaining two eps...even with the Toymaker i thought he wouldve had some universe-ending scheme that would justify Donna and her prophecy once more but no its 'heh heh, catch ball' time instead... I dunno maybe I overthought everything and spent too long thinking what 'I'd' think and im one of these silly egotist fans...but i dont buy any reason for Donna to have come back. Sorry not even 14 subconsciously 'needing a family' as ummm he has Susan, the Ponds and River, the Tylers and even Yaz who he'd just abandoned for reasons of: 'im a Time Lord i dont settle down...'🥴
Well the doctor returned as the 3 fold man during the 50th anniversary since all 3 of them were doctors and not half time lord, half human, the everlasting death to the most faithful companion can refer to a few people such as Amy pond since she is dead with Rory which threw the 11th doctor into massive depression, the face of boar's death when we found out he is captain jack or some other death that we have not seen yet, if I where to guess it was probably Amy pond since that was the death that affected the doctor the most and can't be undone due to the weeping angels and the death of the daleks might of referred to the flux and the volcano blowing up, but I get the feeling that the daleks are not dead yet.
I've seen a few ways of writing and presenting this Dalek's name from Kahn to the one you have used Caan. Which one should we take as right? Caan is a strange individual among the Daleks; like Dallek Sek, Every Series Runner handles naming differently so this could end up being a never ending question... Enough; I'm giving myself a headache... See you around.
I've seen all sorts of variations of the spelling of the name: Khan, Kaan, Kahn, Carn, etc According to the script from the episode and the officially released merch, the correct spelling is 'Caan', and the others are Sec, Thay and Jast. But strangely enough, some of the early Series 2 merch from 2006 calls Dalek Jast by another name, Dalek 'Rabe'
No, that writing is over 15 years old now. It was intended for the episode only. If the writing was predicting the future it would be a lot more specific, like with the Valeyard. It's unlikely to be bought up again, unless one of the new paradigm daleks went back in time to bring back Cann for some reason, like I saw in a fan creation. And they're long gone by this point, and extremely unpopular. Plus dalek Cann's story is badly written and was never meant to work within the established rules of timelocked events, heavily reducing the stakes of the series later on because "time can be rewritten" with very little limits.
The video isn't Doylist, it's Watsonian It's not talking about if the writers are specifically referencing back to Dalek Caan, but from a purely in-universe perspective if the prophecies can be read as referring to modern events seeing as the original interpretations as presented didn't hold up long-term
I think dalek caans prophecy is correct as we see the fourteenth doctor bi regenerate and then theres the curator as for the end of everything dalek when the doctor is looking through the planets he saved from sutekh he doesn't mention skaro but telos instead meaning he didn't save them from death and the most faithful companion could relate to Melanie or sutek as she is dead in another timeline or that sutek has been defeated
thank you for confirming that no, i did not want to watch russel t davies' new reboot and that he has not improved as a writer in 20 years as i had suspected
@@jennifererixon2578 I'd say it's still worth a watch, the first and last episodes aren't very good but the stuff in the middle is decent, and one or two episodes are really good
Well the giggle showed us the tardis being copied an pasted right next to each other soooo... I don't think it's impossible to believe sutekh was copied as well meaning technically he is still alive clinging to 14s original tardis cause let's not forget 15 took the newer one with the jukebox 🤔🤔🤔 just a theory though??? Also about caans prophecy and the most loyal companion suffering fate worse than death... the tardis blew up in series 5 effectively ending the universe with river trapped inside as it was about to blow on a semi permanent time loop (fate worse than death??) until it was all undone deus ex machina style 😅😅😅
i have to disgree on donna losing her memory out of no where, beacuse one my biggest hate about the OG donna ending was the doctor removing her memorys was him doing her what the time lord did to the 2nd doctor best friend and doctor doing that to donna pissed me off for that reason
I'm not referring to Donna's mind being wiped, I'm referring specifically to the bit where the Meta-Crisis Doctor decides to kill all the Daleks and Donna says "just wait for the Doctor" and does NOTHING to stop him from committing genocide, despite the fact that earlier in the same scene she was berating the two Tennants for being "just Time Lords" and implying that her Human aspect makes her better. Its like RTD briefly forgot a crucial aspect of his own story for a brief second, or that the DoctorDonna had a brainfart moment
@@dalekbumps thanks for cleaning up and i guess donna didnt stop the meta crisis doctor killing all the daleks, beacuse he was killing all the daleks and that 100% the right thing to do and the Daleks makers screaming about doctor being the "destoryer of worlds" was total bullshit, beacuse just like Rose and her "what are becoming" in the ep dalek no you dont tell the doctor he a bad person for mass murder the space nazi octpous
@@drow_Lilith9940 I agree with Rose in the context of 'Dalek', the Doctor was about to kill the Dalek despite the fact that it had changed, and thats not a very Doctorish thing to do Davros on the other hand has no business criticising the Doctor, he built a bomb designed to blow up reality and then criticised the Doctor for being unable to save people, it's a stupid scene that's bizarre and weird I do agree overall though that the Doctor is usually in the right when it comes to destroying Daleks. It's hilarious that people criticised the Thirteenth Doctor for sabotaging the Sontaran plan in Flux and destroying the combined Dalek-Cyberman-Sontaran fleet despite the fact that those three factions are some of the most hateful, jingoistic and merciless killers in the universe. But the Meta-Crisis Doctor jumped the gun when he decided to destroy the Crucible, he could have at least waited until everyone was in the TARDIS, that way Dalek Caan might have been saved
@@dalekbumps the DAlek had not chanced in that ep. it was sick and acting agiesnt it will, and even if had not "changed" it shown he happy to mass murder alot of people and would kepe killing even if got out in the sunlight, also i dont think Dalek Caan staying alive would be good idea, it was insane and could swap it mind at any moment
@@drow_Lilith9940 fair points on both counts, but one of the crucial aspects of the Doctor's character is trying to see the good in people, even the Daleks. Remember what the Fourth Doctor says at the end of Genesis of the Daleks, about there still being a possibility that the Daleks could lead to some form of good in the universe? That's a core illustration of who the Doctor is as a character, and part of the reason why 9 acts the way he does in 'Dalek' is because he's still recovering from the Time War and isn't fully in-tune with who he is at that time. So while it doesn't make much sense, the Doctor should try to see the best in everyone until the bitter end - that's one of the reasons why 'The Doctor Falls' is one of my favourite episodes, and why Missy is one of my favourite characters
![CHILE vs. BRASIL [1-2] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 9](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5ObJt_71AYc/mqdefault.jpg)
It would be super funny if in reality Caan knew nothing and was just trolling everyone into thinking he was a prophet for his own amusement.
"MY SOURCE IS THAT I MADE IT THE *dalek censorship* UP!" ~ Dalek Caan probably
I like this head cannon
I think dalek Caan’s source of prophesy was Wikipedia sadly
I always wondered if “everlasting death for the most faithful companion” was fulfilled by Clara’s ending in series 9
@@captaindreadnought212 Interesting idea, I hadn't considered that
Correct
Or Bill, for that matter...
Clara definitely fits in with that prophecy quite nicely
Or the TARDIS. In the S5 finale.
I think the most “faithful companion” could be the Tardis itself
In which case Caan could be predicting Trenzalore, in the timeline which never came to pass.
I think he would have worded the statement differently if he meant the TARDIS though.
it’s sutekh, i’m sure of it
I’d say Clara fits the eternal death considering all her persons die whenever they meet the doctor as well as she’s also caught a second in between death.
❤
Another similarity between Journey's End and Empire of Death is that the stakes go to the point of the destruction of all life in the universe (and beyond in the case of Journey's End).
Caan's prophecies dealt with what he saw in Stolen Earth, and also the Timelords returning.
This is because Caan went back into the Time War itself.
Davros himself said this, and he does not lie when it comes to a feat his Daleks perform.
His prophecies deal with 10's entire story, that ended with his regeneration.
About three-man, David Tennant played 3 Doctors: 10th, Metacrisis and 14th. But in fact he played even 4 Doctors because in Journey Ends he regenirated into himself.
"Everlasting death" = "Temporary exile to London" isn't something we collectively give value, it's completely true
On the comparison with Journey’s End & Empire Of Death, I think the reason why Journey’s End works better & is more liked than Empire Of Death is that it does at least have a lot of good character moments, isolated brilliant scenes and there is (or should I say now ‘was’) consequences for the universe being saved with Donna. Empire Of Death has basically none of that. Also, The Stolen Earth is still a genuinely fantastic isolated episode on its own, while The Legend Of Ruby Sunday in comparison is decent at best & is basically all just set up for Empire Of Death
The Stolen Earth is my favourite episode of Doctor Who.
I think it might be possible that Sutekh survived the time vortex because he was clinging to the TARDIS that whole time, which has a force field that gives you some protection and also allows you to breath a short distance away from the TARDIS in space, so once Sutekh was thrown away from the TARDIS he had nothing to protect him. Maybe. I dunno.
I always thought that his most faithful companion was the TARDIS. Not some silly human.
The Doctor is and Always be The TARDIS's companion. :D The TARDIS is the Silent Main Character. Even the Fourth Doctor called her "Old Girl" or something similar if I remember right.
Plot twist: Caan was referring to Harriet Jones: former prime minister.
if in the giggle the Tardis got turned into 2 versions of it'self does that mean the same thing happened to Sutekh?
Not really on topic but I wonder what Dalek Sec (Pure and Hybrid) would have made of Prophet Caan. It would be interesting.
Everlasting death of a companion and you don't think of Clara living eternity in the last heartbeat of her death!
I suppose it's possible, but why would Caan prophesise that?
it's a prophesies it could be anything. I'm sure you have seen some of the real life ones that made no sense 100 years ago but make sense now.
I think Dalek Caan's line of "The Doctor's Soul will be revealed" also fits well for Empire of Death, technically.
Clara had an everlasting death by jumping into the Doctors timestream and dying over and over again.
The three fold Doctor in my view was the 14th Doctor.
Can’t wait for the trigeneration in the 70th
Russel would already forget this 🤣
Honestly, I don't believe Sutekh is dead. Perhaps he has been reverted to his old self, losing his god hood, and the next episode he appears in, the doctor has to prevent Sutekh from regaining his God hood, and doing a repeat of what he did in the empire of death, except this time the doctor would also be in danger as you wouldn't have the complication of Ruby's mother.
In any reality, I am hoping to see a Dalek episode in series 2, my favorite reoccurring who villains, and with a new look. I think the death to the daleks silver and black would go particularly well with the time war casings.
Yeah I don’t believe he’s dead either you can’t kill death only slow it down
You can't kill the god of death but incapacitated
Maybe Dalek Caan could only see the timeline from before the events of the big bang in series 5? Or some other time alterations has changed the show to a different time line than the one dalek caan was viewing
@@supersecret4390 That's certainly possible, time can be rewritten after all
Tbf on the time vortex point. Although how they got Sutekh there is dumb the vortex killing him does make sense. Sutekh survived by clinging on the TARDIS and using it as a shield of sorts. Allowing him to be unaffected by it.
But when thrown directly into the vortex itself it killed him.
I suppose that makes sense, but Sutekh didn't need the TARDIS to survive travelling through the vortex in Pyramids of Mars, it makes even less sense now that the Tales of the TARDIS version uses the new time vortex effect for when he arrives
@@dalekbumpsWasn’t that because in Pyramids Of Mars, it wasn’t the time vortex? They call it a ‘time corridor’ and use a different effect that they normally use for the vortex.
@@Gatetraveller1 in the original version of the story that's certainly the case, but the updated effects imply that it's the time vortex given as it looks identical to the effect from the new title sequence
@@dalekbumps yeah that I'm not really a fan of. They only made it the vortex for tales of the TARDIS to give a reason for how he managed to get onto the TARDIS itself. But that just creates another plot hole entirely
The everlasting death could be the tardis when it was exploding in the Pandorica episodes since they had too revert the timeline just to save the universe
2:26 idk why this reminds me more of Clara's fate than Donna's. The Doctor also saw her as very special, at least 12 did with everything he went through,
I think Ruby should have been revealed to be some God of life the show built up her to be some supernatural being with a mystery.
Maybe since Sutekh was god of death Ruby would be the opposite perhaps after everyone dies sutekh can't kill Ruby and this triggers some ability to restore life reversing Sutekh damage and weakening Sutekh resulting in hid death
Could an ‘Everlasting Death’ possibly refer to Bill becoming a cyberman? I mean sure her consciousness survives afterwards but as the toymaker said ‘Well That’s Alright Then!’
Would you call her "the most faithful companion?"
To an extent, I think so. Before her conversion she waited 10 years for the doctor and even after her conversion she was able to resist her cyber programming for a while
Though the ‘most faithful companion’ could refer to many other companions( Rose, Martha, Clara, Etc)
I still believe Bill could be argued as the most faithful
Wouldnt Clara work, she was frozen in time the second before death and she had known the doctor for one of, if not the longest continuous period of time
Clara could also work for the prophecy
The most faithful companion is probably the TARDIS.
Maybe a cop out answer but I assumed through seeing time and space all at once everything sort of blends and the predictions Caan saw are fated to constantly repeat. The Doctor will always fight against himself whether physically or mentally. All the companions he meets will eventually have to die whether literally or metaphorically. And the Daleks will always fail to the point they might as well have never existed in the first place. Getting some of their largest victories taken from them through time travel. Like the victory against the time lords
I don’t usually do this but I want to know if anyone else felt this. I haven’t watched the whole season because I’ve found it super difficult to get into, it genuinely felt like I was watching a different show.
And it’s occurred to me, where are the aliens in this season? Something that Doctor Who has never failed to capture is the image of a huge universe bursting at the seams with life. But this season doesn’t seem to feature much by way of aliens, most of the monsters and enemies featured seem to be either supernatural or in some way artificial.
The result is that the universe feels weirdly unpleasantly empty.
I think it was about 2/8 episodes were about/had aliens. With a bit of an alien planet stuff in 2 more but not as memorable. I think thats part of the problem with the combo of shorter season mixed with more fantasy elements.
To me every season of dr who has a different vibe, but i am aware this season was supposed to bring in younger viewers
I think Clara was the faithful companion who suffered everlasting death
Kind of think it would make sense for 14 and Donna to become the Hybrid to give purpose to their reunion.
Dalek Cann said ‘this would always have happened’
Meaning they were always going to meet, he only advanced their destiny.
So if they were destined to meet in star beast, leading to wild blue yonder, then BiGeneration.
It allow the doctors destiny to both become the DrDonna Hybrid
And maybe prompt 15 into a spontaneous regeneration to become the Timless child to reboot Gallifeay
I’m probably in the minority in this, but I didn’t mind Sutekh’s defeat. Yeah he was traveling in the Vortex, but not on his own, he stuck himself to the Tardis like an involuntary tumor. (Granted I’m biased, I just really like Sutekh) The rope and whistle is a bit silly, I’ll say that at least, but all and all, I enjoyed it, and I especially like it when villains succeed in their endeavors (like how Sutekh did here).
I don't care if there was cast appeal with journeys end
But saying that it's ending was more satisfying
It's not impossible to believe that the daleks could be disrupted by controls on their ship
The original story had them impossible to function without touching the floor
Invasion earth theyre disrupted by radiation of the planet they're invading
Planet they were frozen
Emperor of the daleks in the comic had a virus made it impossible for them to shoot straight which they didn't fix and effected them in remembrance
Daleks are flawed
Their creator is flawed
But we've had many, many occasions to see them
That's why we love them but it's kinda the point
The difference is sutekh had one encounter with the doctor, whatever they did with him would have been bad and no matter what you say that will not change
The doctor may have well said walkies, it was just as stupid
I could come up with a more satisfying ending
@@snakedaemongaming6590 the thing I find ridiculous is less the fact that the Daleks were disrupted by the machinery (though technobabble does a LOT of the heavy lifting there)
It's more the fact that these controls exist in the first place. We see Davros manipulate aspects of the Crucible through his chair, like turning the light for Dalek Caan on, so he'd have no need for an independent control panel
Now the logical response to that could be: "maybe the Daleks had separate controls that they didn't want Davros to touch", but there are two rebuttals to this.
First, if they didn't trust Davros with these controls, why are they placed in his prison cell?
And second, why would Daleks need physical buttons? The control panel set is positioned too high up for Davros to use, and the buttons are not designed to fit any Dalek manipulator design that we see in the story.
Whichever way you look at it, it doesn't make any sense
@@dalekbumps yeah but then neither is a human face and we all now about the bitchslap of the daleks (sorry evil)
And yet think about this nightmare on eden is a similar thing, I'm gonna fly away in my ship from my device that can snatch up things
Just one occasion off the top of my head
Let's just say it was probably created by davros when he rebuilt the daleks for himself to use then they turned on him again (funnier that way) and kept him prisoner
Again, it's funnier, as this just emphasises that he can't create them to serve him
My theory is the “most faithful companion facing everlasting death” could be interpreted to mean Clara. As the impossible girl she is the most faithful companion, helping the pre Trenzalore incarnations either as echoes or in person, and becoming one of the few companions to truly care for “the doctor” instead of A Doctor. Her death is also the most final and unambiguous in new who. You can’t escape the raven, once your time is up it will find you. We see her death on screen, and despite 12s best efforts in hell bent, the Revived Chara isn’t actually “alive” and she defies the doctors wishes by willingly returning to the raven (eventually).
Now was this RTDs intention in the stolen earth? Obviously not. The intention was for it to be Donna, even if future stories have contradicted that. But unless the prophecy returns in a future story to officially change the prophecy to something that will happen in the upcoming series, this Clara theory is my own personal Headcanon.
Threefold-man. 15, 16+, and the Valyard
Everlasting Death. Death of the Doctor’s Tardis perhaps?
End of Everything Dalek. Some final end for the Dalek, perhaps through the corruption of their evil into something less irredeemable through a returned Sec?
“Temporary exile to London” 😂
I wouldn't say 'plot contrivances' or 'deus ex macina' because while there are certain scenes of ex machina the final victory doesn't really.
The console would have been designed and installed by Davros. He would want an exit strategy in case the Daleks turned on him so having an override to the station would make sense. And when Donna said 'wait for the Doctor' that wasn't a case of forgetting the DoctorDonna. It was a case of waiting for another solution. Rather than the two metacrisis making snap decisions.
As for Martha's characterisation in threatening to use the Osterhagen Key, she was acting under orders and considering that she spent a year wondering the Earth I would say that would probably mess you up a bit.
But yeah the idea of 'bringing death to death' and Sutekh dying in the vortex again was a stretch. I'm hoping the idea was to leave the door open for another return.
I have a theory that Louise's identity being obscured is more than just a slap in the mystery box trope. I think the TARDIS was protecting her. Why?
Sutekh was atop the TARDIS for a VERY long time, so he's bound to have at least some awareness of the more recurring tropes in the Doctor's life, namely the Mystery Box. The TARDIS and Memory TARDIS theorized(correctly) that Sutekh would recognize the Trope, and become obsessed with whatever potential threat it had to his power, buying the Doctor and Ruby the time they needed to defeat him.
Interesting take. Seen a few ppl bring this up
I seem to be the only one who really likes RTD’s finales. That said, nice video and topic!
The Time Strategist referred Caan as "the false prophet". I dont think it affects the current story.
@@Djayscratcher98 I assume Caan is the 'false prophet' from the Daleks' point of view because he betrayed them
@@dalekbumps that could be the case. I see it as the Time Strategist is on a higher level beyond any dalek. It sees everything. I believe he calls him the false prophet because none of them really come to happen. (Except for the doctor being 3). As Caan could see certain events i see him using the idea of being a "prophet" for his own gain. 🤔
What do you reckon ? It could be a bit of both 😉
@@Djayscratcher98 possibly a bit of both, Caan definitely used his prophecies for his own gain, but also from what we hear in the Time War audios the Time Strategist claims to be able to see all of time and space but he isn't omniscient, so maybe his view of time and space is also skewed?
I've always found it interesting that when the Time Strategist is listing aspects of the Daleks' future, he says "The Cult of Skaro, Dalek Caan the false prophet, the New Paradigm" as if Caan and the false prophet are two separate entities. It's possible that he's saying "Dalek Caan: The False Prophet" but his intonation implies a distinction between the two. It might be nothing but I think it's interesting to consider
@@dalekbumps i thought that too. I think somwhat the same, i believe they see the normal Caan and prophet caan as somwhat two creatures. Almost like they dont want to taint the name of the beloved cult of skaro. As they are ment to be the best of the species. Legends, Role models so to speak. The time strategist utterd that with disgust in his tone. Got to love dalek time travel 🤣
The Doctor: If you're so good at seeing the future why did your vision of everything Dalek being destroyed last like one incarnation?
Caan: Same reason we couldn't kill
The Doctor: Ah, plot armor
how you feeling about the rumours that Martha will be back for a spin off? I hope we do, ity would be nice to get a companion centric spin off that also does the Sea Devil's justice. whether thhey can pull it off is a whole other thing.
Clara is definitionally living out an everlasting death right now
I like to think that the doctor that becomes threefold is fifteen.The fourteenth doctor and the valyard
I’m a bit worried for the daleks in this new season of doctor who hopefully when they return it’s be good but I do have some doubts
Harriet Arbinger brings up "The Threefold Deity"...
The threefold deity *of malice and mischief and misery.*
@@dominickeijzer5844 Malice = Meta crisis tennant destroying all the Daleks (fulfilling the prophecy)
Mischief = our good old fashion Doctor
Misery = Donna being miserable (undone in the star beast)
@@nickmustay That is *really* a stretch, honestly.
I don't think they're at all related.
@@dominickeijzer5844 Of course
Clara Oswald = everlasting death?
Isn’t Clara in a sort of everlasting death state tho? So that prophecy would be true
I think empire of death relates better to silence will fall when the question is answered as sutekh was going to kill the doctor and bring silence to the universe upon finding out the answer to who rubys mum is
Really dislike how they did Sutekh in Legend/Empire. Quite a character assassination and he's been much more terrifying in Big Finish/Expanded Universe, no appearance of his iconic masked form with the green eyes of agony. Might be the last portrayal Gabriel Woolf does of Sutekh and that's really a sad possibility because it's such a bum note to end things on.
As for Dalek Caan, I don't think he's a genuine prophet with temporal precognition, he's just insane and conned the Daleks into hearing what they wanted to hear. The Time Strategist denounced Caan as a false prophet and I'd consider him or the Time Controller to be the closest thing to a genuine prophet the Daleks ever had as a time-sensitive without insanity impeding their logic.
You could interpret Dalek Caan saying someone will die as the DoctorDonna Dying and not Donna herself. The DoctorDonna finally died when both Donna and Rose let the regeneration energy free in The Start Beast. (IDK it could be a stretch)
Who wins in a all out war the Daleks or the xeelee from the xeelee sequence
🐙
Hey! Forgive me if this isn't welcome, but I struggle a little with the transitions you use between clips. They can be pretty distracting and a little irritating, meaning I usually just listen to your videos rather than watching them. Just a normal jump cut would probably work better imo. Don't worry too much though, I'll still be listening!!
@@beejamjam tbh, I've been thinking a lot about that, I should probably tone it down a bit tbf, especially if it's getting distracting
Journeys End is messy and contrived but compared to Empire of Death its a frigging masterpiece
Do you think suetekh is gone or will return in like another 50 years
Caan’s prophecy for that story was fulfilled.
Not really, he said it would be the "end of everything Dalek" but they show up in the next series
He also promises one of the companions an "everlasting death" which never happens either
It's like Rose's "this is the story of how I died" from Doomsday, just RTD baiting the audience
See as much as I love Donna being back her return just pure s***ts on her story arc from S4
When it was first announced she was coming back in the 60th i thought that made so much sense as of course she'd be back, with 14 questioning 'if destiny exitsts then its heading for Donna Noble' in the trailer, as her propehcy still is that 'she is the most important woman in creation', destined to save the universe whether with a magic Dalek keyboard that stops unviersal extinction, or whatever
The prophecy never stated that thered only be an finite number of times she would do so...
And then the 60th airs and okay Donna then helps stops half of London going up with the Meep but then...thats it. She does virtually nothing else in the remaining two eps...even with the Toymaker i thought he wouldve had some universe-ending scheme that would justify Donna and her prophecy once more but no its 'heh heh, catch ball' time instead...
I dunno maybe I overthought everything and spent too long thinking what 'I'd' think and im one of these silly egotist fans...but i dont buy any reason for Donna to have come back. Sorry not even 14 subconsciously 'needing a family' as ummm he has Susan, the Ponds and River, the Tylers and even Yaz who he'd just abandoned for reasons of: 'im a Time Lord i dont settle down...'🥴
Well the doctor returned as the 3 fold man during the 50th anniversary since all 3 of them were doctors and not half time lord, half human, the everlasting death to the most faithful companion can refer to a few people such as Amy pond since she is dead with Rory which threw the 11th doctor into massive depression, the face of boar's death when we found out he is captain jack or some other death that we have not seen yet, if I where to guess it was probably Amy pond since that was the death that affected the doctor the most and can't be undone due to the weeping angels and the death of the daleks might of referred to the flux and the volcano blowing up, but I get the feeling that the daleks are not dead yet.
The Time Strategist did call Caan the 'false prophet'
Don’t to bother, but on the two tardis so are the two Sutekh you should make a video about that any theories how this could be resolved
I've seen a few ways of writing and presenting this Dalek's name from Kahn to the one you have used Caan. Which one should we take as right? Caan is a strange individual among the Daleks; like Dallek Sek, Every Series Runner handles naming differently so this could end up being a never ending question... Enough; I'm giving myself a headache... See you around.
I've seen all sorts of variations of the spelling of the name: Khan, Kaan, Kahn, Carn, etc
According to the script from the episode and the officially released merch, the correct spelling is 'Caan', and the others are Sec, Thay and Jast. But strangely enough, some of the early Series 2 merch from 2006 calls Dalek Jast by another name, Dalek 'Rabe'
No, that writing is over 15 years old now. It was intended for the episode only. If the writing was predicting the future it would be a lot more specific, like with the Valeyard. It's unlikely to be bought up again, unless one of the new paradigm daleks went back in time to bring back Cann for some reason, like I saw in a fan creation. And they're long gone by this point, and extremely unpopular. Plus dalek Cann's story is badly written and was never meant to work within the established rules of timelocked events, heavily reducing the stakes of the series later on because "time can be rewritten" with very little limits.
The video isn't Doylist, it's Watsonian
It's not talking about if the writers are specifically referencing back to Dalek Caan, but from a purely in-universe perspective if the prophecies can be read as referring to modern events seeing as the original interpretations as presented didn't hold up long-term
That or maybe we can infer Russel just can’t fucking write
I think dalek caans prophecy is correct as we see the fourteenth doctor bi regenerate and then theres the curator as for the end of everything dalek when the doctor is looking through the planets he saved from sutekh he doesn't mention skaro but telos instead meaning he didn't save them from death and the most faithful companion could relate to Melanie or sutek as she is dead in another timeline or that sutek has been defeated
thank you for confirming that no, i did not want to watch russel t davies' new reboot and that he has not improved as a writer in 20 years as i had suspected
@@jennifererixon2578 I'd say it's still worth a watch, the first and last episodes aren't very good but the stuff in the middle is decent, and one or two episodes are really good
Well the giggle showed us the tardis being copied an pasted right next to each other soooo... I don't think it's impossible to believe sutekh was copied as well meaning technically he is still alive clinging to 14s original tardis cause let's not forget 15 took the newer one with the jukebox 🤔🤔🤔 just a theory though???
Also about caans prophecy and the most loyal companion suffering fate worse than death... the tardis blew up in series 5 effectively ending the universe with river trapped inside as it was about to blow on a semi permanent time loop (fate worse than death??) until it was all undone deus ex machina style 😅😅😅
10,meta and 14 that is 3 of the same faces
Of course he is. He’s Dalek Caan, not Dalek Caan’t.
Caan he predict the future? Probably not...
i have to disgree on donna losing her memory out of no where,
beacuse one my biggest hate about the OG donna ending was the doctor removing her memorys was him doing her what the time lord did to the 2nd doctor best friend
and doctor doing that to donna pissed me off for that reason
I'm not referring to Donna's mind being wiped, I'm referring specifically to the bit where the Meta-Crisis Doctor decides to kill all the Daleks and Donna says "just wait for the Doctor" and does NOTHING to stop him from committing genocide, despite the fact that earlier in the same scene she was berating the two Tennants for being "just Time Lords" and implying that her Human aspect makes her better. Its like RTD briefly forgot a crucial aspect of his own story for a brief second, or that the DoctorDonna had a brainfart moment
@@dalekbumps thanks for cleaning up and i guess donna didnt stop the meta crisis doctor killing all the daleks, beacuse he was killing all the daleks and that 100% the right thing to do and the Daleks makers screaming about doctor being the "destoryer of worlds" was total bullshit, beacuse just like Rose and her "what are becoming" in the ep dalek
no you dont tell the doctor he a bad person for mass murder the space nazi octpous
@@drow_Lilith9940 I agree with Rose in the context of 'Dalek', the Doctor was about to kill the Dalek despite the fact that it had changed, and thats not a very Doctorish thing to do
Davros on the other hand has no business criticising the Doctor, he built a bomb designed to blow up reality and then criticised the Doctor for being unable to save people, it's a stupid scene that's bizarre and weird
I do agree overall though that the Doctor is usually in the right when it comes to destroying Daleks. It's hilarious that people criticised the Thirteenth Doctor for sabotaging the Sontaran plan in Flux and destroying the combined Dalek-Cyberman-Sontaran fleet despite the fact that those three factions are some of the most hateful, jingoistic and merciless killers in the universe.
But the Meta-Crisis Doctor jumped the gun when he decided to destroy the Crucible, he could have at least waited until everyone was in the TARDIS, that way Dalek Caan might have been saved
@@dalekbumps the DAlek had not chanced in that ep. it was sick and acting agiesnt it will, and even if had not "changed" it shown he happy to mass murder alot of people and would kepe killing even if got out in the sunlight, also i dont think Dalek Caan staying alive would be good idea, it was insane and could swap it mind at any moment
@@drow_Lilith9940 fair points on both counts, but one of the crucial aspects of the Doctor's character is trying to see the good in people, even the Daleks. Remember what the Fourth Doctor says at the end of Genesis of the Daleks, about there still being a possibility that the Daleks could lead to some form of good in the universe? That's a core illustration of who the Doctor is as a character, and part of the reason why 9 acts the way he does in 'Dalek' is because he's still recovering from the Time War and isn't fully in-tune with who he is at that time. So while it doesn't make much sense, the Doctor should try to see the best in everyone until the bitter end - that's one of the reasons why 'The Doctor Falls' is one of my favourite episodes, and why Missy is one of my favourite characters
You're probably reading into it a bit too much.