Thank you for your service brother! 🫡 im glad to hear you say “figure out your optimal arrow weight” sad to say but I’m tired of hearing about people just throwing 700 grains down range without actually understanding what they’re doing and how it affects your overall performance. Great video!
Thanks. I appreciate it. That kind of arbitrary number never made sense to me because of my background. Optimal can be subjective too, but it’s still a lot more targeted to how you are hunting.
For me, I built 4 arrows. 375gr, 420gr, 490gr and a 530gr, with an FOC between 14-17%. I shot each 3 times into 3 different locations on my high roller target, all at 20 yards and with broadheads. I measured how far each penetrated, and picked the deepest one, which was the 420gr. Simple, easy and quick. Not telling anyone what to do, this is what I did, and it has served me well for years. Good video and thanks for your service.
@@wadzilla3711 what you actually tested was the target. Remember,targets are designed to stop the arrow and there can be a variance of density throughout them.
First off,thank you for your service sir! Second, you are spot on! I've never shot over a 425+/- grain arrow and I've killed many whitetails and hogs. Can only remember a few that were not complete pass thru's. Most of my bows shot between 280-323 fps. People kill elk with mid 400 grain arrows alot. If youre lobbing spears at critters,you better be real close, especially witetail. Great video with lots of good info! Ready for the next one!
Finally someone using their head… there have been calculators online for a very long time, anyone taking a few minutes in an attempt to balance out all your numbers reveals an obvious answer. A balanced build will increase effectiveness across the board… an imbalanced build can top the charts on specific numbers but at the detriment of other numbers. Why do people insist on compromising in the opposite ends.. build a proper arrow and you find it can take down larger game animals with less draw weight and still have decent trajectory even at range.
Explain this to me. I've been hunting with the same Brothers for 12 plus years. One shoots 28-in draw 70 lb 362 grain arrow and he blows through elk. His brother has a 27-in draw shoots 70 lb and blows through elk with a 350 grain arrow. Everybody is trying to get high FOC and heavy arrows. But technically compound bows nowadays are so powerful. You really don't need it.!
@@toreyyoung1518 first, shot placement is everything. Second, blowing through elk is also about the shot placement. But, this video isn’t about what you can do with the right shot placement. It’s about optimizing your arrow for what you are hunting and your hunting style. Watch it and you’ll see.
I really like your explanation from an armorer’s POV. I’m an engineer by trade so all this formula based analysis interests me, so I went to your website and tried out your calculator. Impressive, but limited… I chronographed my longbow (45 lbs/28”) when I set it up and there is no input for fps. I was able to adjust the IBO speed until the resulting fps match my actual measured fps. I as hoping your calculator would run the different possible arrow weights and calculate a projected fps and help me find the optimum arrow weight and fps for my setup. Keep up the good work kind sir and thank you for sharing your knowledge. If you would like to evaluate/use it let me know.
@@danny_the_K I am working to get it to do that. Right now I input different weights to see the results and go from there. I might have to build one that allows for fps input now that I’m seeing your point of view on it. Thanks.
Speed vs. deer reaction time it matters, with my 400 fps crossbow 2" cut 100 gr Swhacker, 400 gr tw arrow fast, flat and accurate, I am always getting a 2" exit wound even when I hit the shoulder blade, many deer down & quick, working good for me IMHO. -W. Liggett
Would you mind checking the ke number again on your 605 grain arrow? I am surprised that it dropped by nearly 15%. KE should be fairly constant from the same bow at the same draw length over the entire arrow weight range you are testing. Perhaps it is 69.4? Thanks for the interesting content.
I was at the gym and thought, I better check that when I get home to make sure I didn't make a mistake. There are 2 reasons I believe it drops as much as it does. First, the speed drops dramatically and two, I factor in the gravitational constant for arrow flight whereas some of these KE calculators on the web do not. This assists with the drop in KE and increase in Momentum. I probably should have mentioned it in the video, but it is on my website with the formula. *Here is part of it:* "The gravitational constant (g) is the acceleration due to gravity, which is 32.174 feet per second squared at sea level."
I agree that there is a balance. Personally or whitetails and coming from trad archery I tend to stick to a heavier FOC arrow that’s heavier than what people these days are trying to achieve. With that being said I think the #1 thing that’s glazed over when talking about this subject is how the the actual Performance of the bow should be used to pick arrow weight. If you use a bow that’s delivering a specific energy you should pick arrows in a specific range to get you in a certain range of force and trajectory. Talking in maximums doesn’t help anyone.
Based on my own experience, it matters. Back in 2007, I was slinging 458 grains of TAW with a 100 grain Montec. Had a doe at 20 quartering towards, put it on her shoulder because that is where her heart and front of lungs lined up and let it fly. When it hit, there was the loudest THWACK I ever heard. The arrow just stopped in her shoulder dead in its tracks. I watched her limp 200 yards uphill back to the tree line. I did my due diligence tracking her that night and again next morning. She had survived and I said never again. I grew up shooting and hunting trad because my father is a bowyer and had only a few years prior got into compounds. So, from then on I started building my compound arrows like my trad arrow, which is ten grains of arrow for every one pound of draw weight with at least 20% FOC and single bevel broadhead. Now, no matter the angle, no matter the size of the whitetail, and no matter what bones are in the way of the vitals, nothing stops my arrows. For those compound hunters who are hung up on speed, if trad guys can get it done with bow speeds as low as 140 fps, then I don't know what your problem is.
I’m going to have to look at that. The “10 gains of arrow for every pound of draw weight” and 20% FOC sounds like a great rule of thumb. Thanks for the great comment.
If that's what it takes for you, then great,but I've took the same shot with a 390+/- grain arrow with a 75 grain 3 blade rocket expandable, 70 lb McPherson Solo Lite,blew thru the front shoulder and lodged in the off side back ham. It does not take a trad arrow weight to kill critters!
@user-od6pu8gu7v I am not talking about the scapula, which, let's be honest that is the "shoulder" you are talking about. I am talking about the actual ball and socket. I had no doubt tha my 458 grain arrow out of my 75#/29" compound would have gone through her scapula, but do not pretend your 390 grains is going through the ball and socket joint.
@@michaelvstheworld3680 🤣🤣🤣 well you just let anyone that reads this post know what a liar you are,because everyone that has ever cleaned a deer knows there is NO BALL AND SOCKET in the front shoulder! Nice STORY you told though!!! Thought you said" let's be honest"???
@user-od6pu8gu7v I may have gotten the anatomical terminology wrong, but you know the spot I am speaking of ,bottom of the scap where it meet their femur. So do not be a asshole, asshole.
Merry Christmas, God Bless our Troops, and Thank You for your service. You started off on the wrong track: Kinetic Energy doesn’t kill deer in archery, blood loss from hemorrhage does. Broadhead sharpness and shot placement trumps all metrics.
Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Sorry, but I’d have to disagree with that. Everything contributes. Yes, those things are important elements, but you’re putting the cart before the horse. If you want to maximize the effectiveness of the arrow, it needs to be optimized. Watch the entire video. I go into this in depth.
If I'm recalling correctly, Roy Weatherby shot a warthog with a 460 weatherby and 500gr solid on an african safari. Even with over 7,000 ft lbs of kinetic energy, that bullet was likely a .458 entrance and .458 exit hole. I think that the warthog ran something like 400+ yds. He also shot a lot of game with the 257 wby and noted how quickly all of it died, and the size of the wounds. Things die from a lack of oxygenated blood flow to the brain. The more blood and oxygen you take away quickly, the faster the animal dies. Therefore we should place our priorities on hitting areas that will effectively cause this, and do so with something that will do as much damage to a specific, targeted bodily system as possible within reason. With rifles you can choose whether to affect the nervous system or the cardiorespiratory system, with archery we're pretty much stuck with the latter. I know how much ranch fairy talks about shooting the 3" cluster of valves and blood vessels that sit in the "Vital V", but any shot that collapses the lungs will cause a rapid loss in oxygenated blood flow. Shots to this "vital v" area only induce a higher chance of hitting the larger bones in the front part of a deer, which is why the people preaching for these shots talk so much about little single bevel heads and heavy arrows. If our end goal is to dispatch game as quickly as possible, the focus should be on putting a shot as close as possible to the targeted area, and using a projectile that does the most damage to this area. This already starts to rule out the extremely heavy and light arrows, as heavier arrows are less forgiving when it comes to unknown external ballistics. Moving animals, unknown ranges, winds, and to an extend even the shooting of the bow. Lighter arrows may be more forgiving on the shot, but can lack penetration, especially if using larger broadheads. This can be countered with smaller heads, but doing so reduced tissue damage and extends the time to death for the animal. At the end of the day a hole through the lungs will kill game, but if we weren't worried about doing so quickly we could just shoot field points, and have track jobs over 400yds. For the sake of the efficiency in ending a living creatures life, I can't think of any reason for the AVERAGE adult male archer (28-30" draw length 60-75lb draw weight" to not shoot an arrow between 450 and 550gr, between 265 and 300fps, with a broadhead of at least 1.5" of total cut
thank you great information. Having a very difficult time choosing the correct arrow weight for deer season. Here are my spec; IBO 321, dl 29, dw 67. I dont plan to shoot past 40 yards. Current arrow weight is 389gm(400 speed) . So, Im worried weight. Current speed is 290. Any recommendations would be extremely helpful Thanks in advance
You could safely go up to 500 grains. Arrow speed would be around 260 fps, but your KE and momentum look really solid (around 74.5 ft. lbs, and .575 Slug FPS. At 550 grains, your speed is approximately 243 fps, 72.1 KE, and .593 Slug fps. It really depends on what you want out of your arrow's flight. At 40 yards you would see a lot of drop out of the 550, but not terrible. If this is something new for you, I would start in the 475 to 500 grain range and see how that works for you.
Back when I was shooting a PSE Carrera with a overdraw rest at 70lbs with a 30in DL, I was all about speed. My arrow weight back then was about 365gr tipped with a NAP Spitfires 3 blade. I had no clue on how to tune a bow back then and couldn't get a fixed blade to fly. Information was pretty lacking back in those days and I was in my mind cheating by using the spit fires. The fisrt deer I shot with those arrows I lost due to lack of penetration. The arrow pretty much stopped dead. I ended up schooling myself by driving 2 hrs to the nearest bow dealer and finding out why my arrow stop dead. It was then I was shown how to tune my bow and my arrows to my bow. Also my arrows were to light and the spitfires were expending all its energy when it first hit the deer. I am a much better archery hunter now because of my mistake that day. I am still a speed guy at heart and shooting an Xpedite NXT with 450gr arrows at 312fps tipped with a single bevel broad head. I have nothing but complete pass throughs whether i hit a shoulder blade or ribs. Thanks for the great videos and keep them coming.
Though I do believe that the heavier arrow is more beneficial for lethality, I think that most hunters would be far better served by shooting their bow more. Shooting all year instead of a week before season. And yes the overwhelming majority do just that. I have been bow hunting since the early 80's and have seen it time and time again. Arrow talk is fun and sometimes educational but it will never trump practice and familiarity with your equipment and knowing its and your limitations.
This isn't that big of a deal with a compound shooting 240+ fps. A 400g arrow through a high speed compound will blow through deer like a 600g arrow using the same head. Step into the recurve/longbow world of very slow bows shooting 140-160fps and thats where the heavy arrow weighs Supreme. Hunting with a recurve will teach you everything you need to know about " heavy vs light " arrows. This isnt rocket science !!!
I couldn’t agree more……. Lift33 (31.5/72#/85%) I’m getting 308 fps with a 450 grain arrow (14.4% foc) but choose to use a 125 grain broadhead to get to 475 grains (16% foc) because I’m still at 295 fps and my bow tunes a lot better with that weight arrow and at that speed. But either set up is going to be lethal with my SEVR 1.75 broadhead.
But arrow speed matters a lot too especially in whitetail. The faster the arrow, the closer you hit to the spot you aimed at because the deer is moving as soon as it hears the shot. Especially with pressured deer. Deer aren’t hard to penetrate. I’ve killed almost 200 deer with trad bows and haven’t notice really heavy arrows penetrating any better or even as well as an arrow that weighs 9-10 grains per pound of bow weight. Even with high FOC. So I’d say a 9 grain per pound arrow would be the best all around for whitetail hunting with trad bows. Like I said I’ve killed a lot of deer with different arrow weights and seen a lot of evidence from my buddies with different set ups.
Why 9-10 grains per pound of draw weight? At my 70# that’s a heavy ass 630-700 grain Arrow that my FPS is going to be around 250-260 at best! Deer in Oklahoma and Texas are like water bugs…. The first sound and they are dropping to the ground!! Just go 6-7 grains X draw pounds and for me I’m at 420-490 w/315-290 fps (I’m actually at 470 grains/298 FPS) and you will get a pass through on anything in NA with the right braodhead. I use Sirius Gemini’s and RIP TKO’s (both lower GPI’s) and with 175 to 190 up front including broad head in at 460-475 with FOC at 15-17%. This will kill anything including the 300# boar I shot at 32 yards. Broadheads of choice SEVR1.75 and MegaMeat….. I will try the SEVR 1.5 hybrid this season and hope they come out with the SEVR1.75 Hybrid!!! SEVR Broadheads fly like field points and are super sharp and very durable!!
@@stacyhardin611 I completely agree with that. 5 grains per pound in a compound would likely be perfect for whitetail. For trad bows you need more arrow weight just to protect the structural integrity of the wood bow. I think many recurve/longbow manufacturers or bowyers want about 8-9 grains per pound per the warranty.
Arrow weight IS mass in the momemtum equation, not another factor...the intro made it sound like it was a different factor. Love the video otherwise, especially as someone with a 25" DL. Thanks Mike
@@robertgoodwin184 100%. None of this matters without that, but it helps when that shot isn’t as perfect as we want or something gets in the way. The animal you’re hunting always has a vote. It all works together.
@theeverydaybowhunter you can hit the spot but if you don't have the right tool for the job, you can bonk and loos your animal. The arrow has to be heavy enough to get through your target animal.
40 lbs and 400 grain arrows take elk and deer every year from woman. Just seen a 370 bull elk shot yesterday at 70 yards first animal with a bow, from almost the same woman setup. Nothing beats accuracy, 10 inch penetration heart shot will even dump a mature whitetail buck. 99 percent of Archer's are not accurate on a live animal in front of them.
Well your comparison between rifle round weight and arrow weight are just misleading at best. A rifle is firing a projectile at an extremely fast speed regardless of the weight of the bullet. There is not rifle not capable of full penetration of an animal. The reason heavier rounds are better is due to energy transfer into the animal. The heavier the round the more energy you are dumping into the animal, and normally you're shooting some kind of bullet that deforms and increases in surface area upon impact. But we're not killing deer using energy transfer with a bow, we're killing deer by cutting through their vital organs and causing as much mass hemorrhaging as possible. In that case we're discussing penetration and broadhead size. The best case scenario would be if you could shoot an extremely fast arrow with an extremely large blade accurately and get full passthroughs. That is what would make a bow and arrow the most deadly. Of course that's not possible in reality because there are trade-offs, mostly being between speed and penetration. It really doesn't make any sense to shoot an extremely heavy arrow very slowly in reality. Again we don't care about energy transfer, we care about penetration. The only reason you're saying to shoot a heavier arrow anyway is because you believe it will drive through the animal better, which may be true, but at what cost, and how much better? You're going to shoot a 605 grain arrow at 213 feet per second because you think that gives you optimum penetration, but my bow shooting a 365grain arrow at 315fps with a fixed blade on the front of it zips through anything. So if we can achieve full passthrough with a lighter arrow moving much faster, there legitimately is no reason to shoot a slower moving arrow. You get more deviation in your yardages, you give the animal more time to react, and you truly are not gaining any substantial advantage in penetration.
I’m not sure you watched the entire video. I actually said that 605 was too heavy for me and how I like to hunt. You also gave the almost the exact example I gave in the video as well. Shoot your 375. If that’s what works for you then use it. But, just like I discussed in the second half of the video, that doesn’t mean that your 375 grain arrow is the most optimal weight for your bow, draw weight, and draw length. This video was not a “use super heavy arrows” video. It was a use the most optimized arrow weight for your specific setup and hunting style video.
He doesn't know what he's talking about. He can't understand that a heavier arrow doesn't have as much velocity as a lighter arrow. He thinks they are moving at the same speed when shot out of the same bow.
Quite a bit to unpack here... you threw out a bunch of different slug-feet v kE numbers and used several comparisons that need some validation. Where did you get your numbers for the amount of kE for taking deer? I would appreciate you citing a source. I have data from 7 western states game offices to share when I receive your citation of sources. You've compared bullet caliber to being equivalent to the arrow, which is incorrect. The "caliber" of the bow is the bow's specs - draw length and draw weight, whereas the arrow equates to the bullet - the projectile. You then use an age-old argument of throwing a "toothpick" at your buddy, versus throwing a Bowie knife at him. This comparison is extremely disingenuous and inaccurate. A toothpick weighs 0.01 grams, while a Bowie knife weighs 425grams, the equivalent of shooting a bullet weighing 50grains versus one that weighs 5,000 grains. If you can, find me a caliber of civilian firearm that can shoot both and tell me how that turns out. You've made a comparison that equates to shooting an arrow that weighs 4.5 grains to one weighing 450 grains. Pretty far stretch there by any means. I am quite certain that if you took off 25% of the total weight of the Bowie knife in your comparison by removing part of the wooden handle, and then threw that same sharp knife at your buddy, he'd be at least equally harmed, if not more by the lighter knife that is now travelling faster at his head. I can't weight for you to post that video 🤔
@@LancePostma-ry9mc The caliber to arrow weight is a comparison referring to the ammunition used. You actually proved my point. I go through this in the video. Your bow, draw length, and draw weight are the determining factors in what the optimal arrow weight is for that bow. I think you tried a little too hard at picking this apart versus understanding the analogy comparing ammunition and how the physics of weight affect both ammunition and arrows. The toothpick to Bowie knife example was supposed to illustrate a “far stretch” between the two. As for the KE and Momentum minimum charts in the video, all you need to do is a simple google search and it pops right up and is featured on many industry websites. The formulas used are those utilized by the famous arrow researcher Ed Ashby. Please look at what I’m saying in the video. I’m describing how to find the most optimal arrow weight for your bow. Not that you should just shoot heavy arrows.
@@theeverydaybowhunter It was apparent you'd cite Ashby. But what state agency or other sources do you have other than a "Google it" Reply? Edit: I'll add that I've been a professional archery technician for over 2 decades... setting up hundreds of bows each year designed to efficiently kill elk and deer.
@@lspostma that’s great, but I haven’t seen any state agencies or game commissions state KE or momentum requirements. They usually post draw weight minimums like 35-40 lbs for example. You will normally find the minimum KE requirements on arrow manufacturers websites, like Victory for example or BowHunting.com. If you’re working at an archery shop, you might want to read this stuff. www.victoryarchery.com/kinetic-energy-calculator/ www.bowhunting.com/bowhunt101/how-much-kinetic-energy-for-bowhunting/ So my question to you is this because of your extensive experience: What am I wrong about in the arrow weight optimization process and did you actually watch the entire video?
Light arrows decelerate faster than heavier arrows. Shot the heaviest arrow you can with the trajectory you like out to ethical hunting distances for you. Know your max effective range as the gentlemen said.
A LIGHT ARROW AND A HEAVY ARROW SHOT FROM THE SAME BOW HAVE THE SAME ENERGY PERIOD! THOSE THAT DONT UNDERSTAND THIS NEED A REFRESHER COURSE IN 4TH GRADE PHYSICS.
I’m sorry but that’s not just wrong, it’s very wrong. The kinetic energy of an arrow is determined by its mass and the velocity at which it is shot. While both arrows may be released with the same initial velocity, the heavier arrow has more mass, resulting in more kinetic energy. That’s the basic physics of it.
@@theeverydaybowhunter Everyone knows that a heavier arrow has more energy than a lighter arrow "WHEN THEY ARE MOVING AT THE SAME SPEED" due to Newton's 2nd law of motion. The problem you guys can't seem to solve is that when both arrows are shot out of the "SAME BOW", the heavier arrow is "NOT" moving at the speed as the lighter arrow because the bow can't accelerate the heavier arrow as fast as the lighter one because of the extra mass "THE HEAVIER ARROW HAS LESS VELOCITY". Another law that proves I'm right is known as the conservation of energy. You can't get free energy from nothing. You don't magically get more energy out of a bow by shooting a heavier arrow. This test has been done repeatedly by many reputable people and clearly shows the lighter arrows have just as much penetration as heavier arrows.
Watch the video. I can tell you didn’t. This isn’t my first day. KE isn’t the only factor in arrow penetration. I can see that you don’t understand that. So stop trying to be smarter than you are and watch it and maybe I won’t have to keep trying to teach you basic arrow physics.
"it's an arrow bud chill out" If it's just an arrow and doesn't matter why do you still have a side you think is objectively right? Maybe YOU don't care about engineers but they might be the only people willing to do the math on physics that most hunters are too dumb or lazy to put together
Being a ballistics expert does not open your mind as being an engineer, that's why you don't even know where to start with your explanation, your mind is all convoluted, you are a very narrow minded soldier.
Thank you for your service brother! 🫡 im glad to hear you say “figure out your optimal arrow weight” sad to say but I’m tired of hearing about people just throwing 700 grains down range without actually understanding what they’re doing and how it affects your overall performance. Great video!
Thanks. I appreciate it. That kind of arbitrary number never made sense to me because of my background. Optimal can be subjective too, but it’s still a lot more targeted to how you are hunting.
Well, done, I have been building my arrows for years and you are spot on. Keep up the good work.
Thanks!
For me, I built 4 arrows. 375gr, 420gr, 490gr and a 530gr, with an FOC between 14-17%. I shot each 3 times into 3 different locations on my high roller target, all at 20 yards and with broadheads. I measured how far each penetrated, and picked the deepest one, which was the 420gr. Simple, easy and quick.
Not telling anyone what to do, this is what I did, and it has served me well for years.
Good video and thanks for your service.
@@wadzilla3711 what you actually tested was the target. Remember,targets are designed to stop the arrow and there can be a variance of density throughout them.
Extremely informative! I needed all of this info. I'm just getting into bow hunting
Awesome! The best of luck to you!
Thank you for your service! I love the videos! Keep them coming! Super easy to follow
Thanks!
First off,thank you for your service sir! Second, you are spot on! I've never shot over a 425+/- grain arrow and I've killed many whitetails and hogs. Can only remember a few that were not complete pass thru's. Most of my bows shot between 280-323 fps. People kill elk with mid 400 grain arrows alot. If youre lobbing spears at critters,you better be real close, especially witetail. Great video with lots of good info! Ready for the next one!
@@Fletchedchaos75 I appreciate it. Thanks!
Great video! Looking forward to part two of this arrow discussion
Already done the video, just need to find time to edit it this week. Thanks!
Finally someone using their head… there have been calculators online for a very long time, anyone taking a few minutes in an attempt to balance out all your numbers reveals an obvious answer. A balanced build will increase effectiveness across the board… an imbalanced build can top the charts on specific numbers but at the detriment of other numbers. Why do people insist on compromising in the opposite ends.. build a proper arrow and you find it can take down larger game animals with less draw weight and still have decent trajectory even at range.
Exactly. Thanks!
Explain this to me. I've been hunting with the same Brothers for 12 plus years. One shoots 28-in draw 70 lb 362 grain arrow and he blows through elk. His brother has a 27-in draw shoots 70 lb and blows through elk with a 350 grain arrow. Everybody is trying to get high FOC and heavy arrows. But technically compound bows nowadays are so powerful. You really don't need it.!
@@toreyyoung1518 first, shot placement is everything. Second, blowing through elk is also about the shot placement. But, this video isn’t about what you can do with the right shot placement. It’s about optimizing your arrow for what you are hunting and your hunting style. Watch it and you’ll see.
I really like your explanation from an armorer’s POV. I’m an engineer by trade so all this formula based analysis interests me, so I went to your website and tried out your calculator. Impressive, but limited… I chronographed my longbow (45 lbs/28”) when I set it up and there is no input for fps. I was able to adjust the IBO speed until the resulting fps match my actual measured fps. I as hoping your calculator would run the different possible arrow weights and calculate a projected fps and help me find the optimum arrow weight and fps for my setup. Keep up the good work kind sir and thank you for sharing your knowledge. If you would like to evaluate/use it let me know.
@@danny_the_K I am working to get it to do that. Right now I input different weights to see the results and go from there. I might have to build one that allows for fps input now that I’m seeing your point of view on it.
Thanks.
@@theeverydaybowhunterFPS would be great!
Ok, I’ll definitely have to build it.
Speed vs. deer reaction time it matters, with my 400 fps crossbow 2" cut 100 gr Swhacker, 400 gr tw arrow fast, flat and accurate, I am always getting a 2" exit wound even when I hit the shoulder blade, many deer down & quick, working good for me IMHO. -W. Liggett
Would you mind checking the ke number again on your 605 grain arrow? I am surprised that it dropped by nearly 15%. KE should be fairly constant from the same bow at the same draw length over the entire arrow weight range you are testing. Perhaps it is 69.4? Thanks for the interesting content.
I was at the gym and thought, I better check that when I get home to make sure I didn't make a mistake. There are 2 reasons I believe it drops as much as it does. First, the speed drops dramatically and two, I factor in the gravitational constant for arrow flight whereas some of these KE calculators on the web do not. This assists with the drop in KE and increase in Momentum. I probably should have mentioned it in the video, but it is on my website with the formula.
*Here is part of it:* "The gravitational constant (g) is the acceleration due to gravity, which is 32.174 feet per second squared at sea level."
I agree that there is a balance. Personally or whitetails and coming from trad archery I tend to stick to a heavier FOC arrow that’s heavier than what people these days are trying to achieve.
With that being said I think the #1 thing that’s glazed over when talking about this subject is how the the actual
Performance of the bow should be used to pick arrow weight. If you use a bow that’s delivering a specific energy you should pick arrows in a specific range to get you in a certain range of force and trajectory. Talking in maximums doesn’t help anyone.
I agree and that’s exactly what I talk about in the video. Thanks.
very informative info. thanks, great presentaion.
Thanks!
Based on my own experience, it matters. Back in 2007, I was slinging 458 grains of TAW with a 100 grain Montec. Had a doe at 20 quartering towards, put it on her shoulder because that is where her heart and front of lungs lined up and let it fly. When it hit, there was the loudest THWACK I ever heard. The arrow just stopped in her shoulder dead in its tracks. I watched her limp 200 yards uphill back to the tree line. I did my due diligence tracking her that night and again next morning. She had survived and I said never again. I grew up shooting and hunting trad because my father is a bowyer and had only a few years prior got into compounds. So, from then on I started building my compound arrows like my trad arrow, which is ten grains of arrow for every one pound of draw weight with at least 20% FOC and single bevel broadhead. Now, no matter the angle, no matter the size of the whitetail, and no matter what bones are in the way of the vitals, nothing stops my arrows. For those compound hunters who are hung up on speed, if trad guys can get it done with bow speeds as low as 140 fps, then I don't know what your problem is.
I’m going to have to look at that. The “10 gains of arrow for every pound of draw weight” and 20% FOC sounds like a great rule of thumb. Thanks for the great comment.
If that's what it takes for you, then great,but I've took the same shot with a 390+/- grain arrow with a 75 grain 3 blade rocket expandable, 70 lb McPherson Solo Lite,blew thru the front shoulder and lodged in the off side back ham. It does not take a trad arrow weight to kill critters!
@user-od6pu8gu7v I am not talking about the scapula, which, let's be honest that is the "shoulder" you are talking about. I am talking about the actual ball and socket. I had no doubt tha my 458 grain arrow out of my 75#/29" compound would have gone through her scapula, but do not pretend your 390 grains is going through the ball and socket joint.
@@michaelvstheworld3680 🤣🤣🤣 well you just let anyone that reads this post know what a liar you are,because everyone that has ever cleaned a deer knows there is NO BALL AND SOCKET in the front shoulder! Nice STORY you told though!!! Thought you said" let's be honest"???
@user-od6pu8gu7v I may have gotten the anatomical terminology wrong, but you know the spot I am speaking of ,bottom of the scap where it meet their femur. So do not be a asshole, asshole.
Well said! Thanks for the informative video.
Thanks!
Merry Christmas, God Bless our Troops, and Thank You for your service.
You started off on the wrong track: Kinetic Energy doesn’t kill deer in archery, blood loss from hemorrhage does. Broadhead sharpness and shot placement trumps all metrics.
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
Sorry, but I’d have to disagree with that. Everything contributes. Yes, those things are important elements, but you’re putting the cart before the horse. If you want to maximize the effectiveness of the arrow, it needs to be optimized. Watch the entire video. I go into this in depth.
Appreciate the video!
@@shaneg8531 thanks!
If I'm recalling correctly, Roy Weatherby shot a warthog with a 460 weatherby and 500gr solid on an african safari. Even with over 7,000 ft lbs of kinetic energy, that bullet was likely a .458 entrance and .458 exit hole. I think that the warthog ran something like 400+ yds. He also shot a lot of game with the 257 wby and noted how quickly all of it died, and the size of the wounds.
Things die from a lack of oxygenated blood flow to the brain. The more blood and oxygen you take away quickly, the faster the animal dies. Therefore we should place our priorities on hitting areas that will effectively cause this, and do so with something that will do as much damage to a specific, targeted bodily system as possible within reason. With rifles you can choose whether to affect the nervous system or the cardiorespiratory system, with archery we're pretty much stuck with the latter.
I know how much ranch fairy talks about shooting the 3" cluster of valves and blood vessels that sit in the "Vital V", but any shot that collapses the lungs will cause a rapid loss in oxygenated blood flow. Shots to this "vital v" area only induce a higher chance of hitting the larger bones in the front part of a deer, which is why the people preaching for these shots talk so much about little single bevel heads and heavy arrows.
If our end goal is to dispatch game as quickly as possible, the focus should be on putting a shot as close as possible to the targeted area, and using a projectile that does the most damage to this area. This already starts to rule out the extremely heavy and light arrows, as heavier arrows are less forgiving when it comes to unknown external ballistics. Moving animals, unknown ranges, winds, and to an extend even the shooting of the bow. Lighter arrows may be more forgiving on the shot, but can lack penetration, especially if using larger broadheads. This can be countered with smaller heads, but doing so reduced tissue damage and extends the time to death for the animal.
At the end of the day a hole through the lungs will kill game, but if we weren't worried about doing so quickly we could just shoot field points, and have track jobs over 400yds. For the sake of the efficiency in ending a living creatures life, I can't think of any reason for the AVERAGE adult male archer (28-30" draw length 60-75lb draw weight" to not shoot an arrow between 450 and 550gr, between 265 and 300fps, with a broadhead of at least 1.5" of total cut
@@papajohnsy6659 I agree. In fact in my follow up video to this one I think I said something very close to your last statement there. Great comment!
thank you great information. Having a very difficult time choosing the correct arrow weight for deer season. Here are my spec; IBO 321, dl 29, dw 67. I dont plan to shoot past 40 yards. Current arrow weight is 389gm(400 speed) . So, Im worried weight. Current speed is 290. Any recommendations would be extremely helpful Thanks in advance
You could safely go up to 500 grains. Arrow speed would be around 260 fps, but your KE and momentum look really solid (around 74.5 ft. lbs, and .575 Slug FPS. At 550 grains, your speed is approximately 243 fps, 72.1 KE, and .593 Slug fps. It really depends on what you want out of your arrow's flight. At 40 yards you would see a lot of drop out of the 550, but not terrible. If this is something new for you, I would start in the 475 to 500 grain range and see how that works for you.
Thank you. You just save me hours of guessing.
No problem. Good luck!
The heavier the weight, the more speed the arrow carries at the end of the fight. A light arrow slows down a lot more by drag down range.
Absolutely, that’s the momentum part of the equation.
Absolutely correct. Look up the RANCH FAIRY. heavy FOC works better. Pull the arrow not push. Glad I didn't subscribe.
@@davidgregory901 didn’t you read what I said or watch the video?
Back when I was shooting a PSE Carrera with a overdraw rest at 70lbs with a 30in DL, I was all about speed. My arrow weight back then was about 365gr tipped with a NAP Spitfires 3 blade. I had no clue on how to tune a bow back then and couldn't get a fixed blade to fly. Information was pretty lacking back in those days and I was in my mind cheating by using the spit fires. The fisrt deer I shot with those arrows I lost due to lack of penetration. The arrow pretty much stopped dead. I ended up schooling myself by driving 2 hrs to the nearest bow dealer and finding out why my arrow stop dead. It was then I was shown how to tune my bow and my arrows to my bow. Also my arrows were to light and the spitfires were expending all its energy when it first hit the deer. I am a much better archery hunter now because of my mistake that day. I am still a speed guy at heart and shooting an Xpedite NXT with 450gr arrows at 312fps tipped with a single bevel broad head. I have nothing but complete pass throughs whether i hit a shoulder blade or ribs. Thanks for the great videos and keep them coming.
@@novascotiapsearcher4497 that’s smoking. Awesome comment. Thanks!
Though I do believe that the heavier arrow is more beneficial for lethality, I think that most hunters would be far better served by shooting their bow more. Shooting all year instead of a week before season. And yes the overwhelming majority do just that. I have been bow hunting since the early 80's and have seen it time and time again. Arrow talk is fun and sometimes educational but it will never trump practice and familiarity with your equipment and knowing its and your limitations.
I can’t argue with that.
This isn't that big of a deal with a compound shooting 240+ fps.
A 400g arrow through a high speed compound will blow through deer like a 600g arrow using the same head.
Step into the recurve/longbow world of very slow bows shooting 140-160fps and thats where the heavy arrow weighs Supreme.
Hunting with a recurve will teach you everything you need to know about " heavy vs light " arrows.
This isnt rocket science !!!
Very good point. Thanks!
I couldn’t agree more……. Lift33 (31.5/72#/85%) I’m getting 308 fps with a 450 grain arrow (14.4% foc) but choose to use a 125 grain broadhead to get to 475 grains (16% foc) because I’m still at 295 fps and my bow tunes a lot better with that weight arrow and at that speed. But either set up is going to be lethal with my SEVR 1.75 broadhead.
But arrow speed matters a lot too especially in whitetail. The faster the arrow, the closer you hit to the spot you aimed at because the deer is moving as soon as it hears the shot. Especially with pressured deer.
Deer aren’t hard to penetrate. I’ve killed almost 200 deer with trad bows and haven’t notice really heavy arrows penetrating any better or even as well as an arrow that weighs 9-10 grains per pound of bow weight. Even with high FOC.
So I’d say a 9 grain per pound arrow would be the best all around for whitetail hunting with trad bows.
Like I said I’ve killed a lot of deer with different arrow weights and seen a lot of evidence from my buddies with different set ups.
Why 9-10 grains per pound of draw weight? At my 70# that’s a heavy ass 630-700 grain Arrow that my FPS is going to be around 250-260 at best! Deer in Oklahoma and Texas are like water bugs…. The first sound and they are dropping to the ground!! Just go 6-7 grains X draw pounds and for me I’m at 420-490 w/315-290 fps (I’m actually at 470 grains/298 FPS) and you will get a pass through on anything in NA with the right braodhead. I use Sirius Gemini’s and RIP TKO’s (both lower GPI’s) and with 175 to 190 up front including broad head in at 460-475 with FOC at 15-17%. This will kill anything including the 300# boar I shot at 32 yards. Broadheads of choice SEVR1.75 and MegaMeat….. I will try the SEVR 1.5 hybrid this season and hope they come out with the SEVR1.75 Hybrid!!! SEVR Broadheads fly like field points and are super sharp and very durable!!
@@stacyhardin611 I completely agree with that. 5 grains per pound in a compound would likely be perfect for whitetail.
For trad bows you need more arrow weight just to protect the structural integrity of the wood bow. I think many recurve/longbow manufacturers or bowyers want about 8-9 grains per pound per the warranty.
Arrow weight IS mass in the momemtum equation, not another factor...the intro made it sound like it was a different factor. Love the video otherwise, especially as someone with a 25" DL. Thanks Mike
I tried to say that but with the factor that the amount of mass really affects the momentum. I just didn't articulate it very well. Thanks.
Great information and thank goodness there is someone else using common sense!!!
I appreciate that. Thanks!
Must have 10 to 12 percent wt.forward in arrow,
You're fine
I can hardly stop my crossbow with 365 gt.16 inch arrow 125 gr.broedhead. 3 pcs.of close cell ethaphon. At 30 yds.
Nice to hear someone level headed on arrow weight.
@@paulheberling2750 thanks!
Logic is an outstanding ! 😂 ❤
🏹🦌🏹🦌🏹🦌🏹🦌
Thanks!
Perfect arrow flight and shot selection will mean more than your arrow weight ever will for deer.
@@robertgoodwin184 100%. None of this matters without that, but it helps when that shot isn’t as perfect as we want or something gets in the way. The animal you’re hunting always has a vote. It all works together.
@theeverydaybowhunter you can hit the spot but if you don't have the right tool for the job, you can bonk and loos your animal. The arrow has to be heavy enough to get through your target animal.
At distance, the mass is going to help you.
Absolutely
100%
40 lbs and 400 grain arrows take elk and deer every year from woman.
Just seen a 370 bull elk shot yesterday at 70 yards first animal with a bow, from almost the same woman setup.
Nothing beats accuracy, 10 inch penetration heart shot will even dump a mature whitetail buck.
99 percent of Archer's are not accurate on a live animal in front of them.
That’s not what this video is about. Did you watch it?
Well your comparison between rifle round weight and arrow weight are just misleading at best. A rifle is firing a projectile at an extremely fast speed regardless of the weight of the bullet. There is not rifle not capable of full penetration of an animal. The reason heavier rounds are better is due to energy transfer into the animal. The heavier the round the more energy you are dumping into the animal, and normally you're shooting some kind of bullet that deforms and increases in surface area upon impact. But we're not killing deer using energy transfer with a bow, we're killing deer by cutting through their vital organs and causing as much mass hemorrhaging as possible. In that case we're discussing penetration and broadhead size. The best case scenario would be if you could shoot an extremely fast arrow with an extremely large blade accurately and get full passthroughs. That is what would make a bow and arrow the most deadly. Of course that's not possible in reality because there are trade-offs, mostly being between speed and penetration. It really doesn't make any sense to shoot an extremely heavy arrow very slowly in reality. Again we don't care about energy transfer, we care about penetration. The only reason you're saying to shoot a heavier arrow anyway is because you believe it will drive through the animal better, which may be true, but at what cost, and how much better? You're going to shoot a 605 grain arrow at 213 feet per second because you think that gives you optimum penetration, but my bow shooting a 365grain arrow at 315fps with a fixed blade on the front of it zips through anything. So if we can achieve full passthrough with a lighter arrow moving much faster, there legitimately is no reason to shoot a slower moving arrow. You get more deviation in your yardages, you give the animal more time to react, and you truly are not gaining any substantial advantage in penetration.
Zips through anything? How about a Cape Buffalo?
I’m not sure you watched the entire video. I actually said that 605 was too heavy for me and how I like to hunt. You also gave the almost the exact example I gave in the video as well. Shoot your 375. If that’s what works for you then use it. But, just like I discussed in the second half of the video, that doesn’t mean that your 375 grain arrow is the most optimal weight for your bow, draw weight, and draw length.
This video was not a “use super heavy arrows” video. It was a use the most optimized arrow weight for your specific setup and hunting style video.
i guess tell us you didnt watch the video or know anything without actually telling us huh ?
WOW! You really need to read what you wrote. No Clue 4 you. Grow up
He doesn't know what he's talking about. He can't understand that a heavier arrow doesn't have as much velocity as a lighter arrow. He thinks they are moving at the same speed when shot out of the same bow.
You need that "wapp"
lol. Yep!
Quite a bit to unpack here... you threw out a bunch of different slug-feet v kE numbers and used several comparisons that need some validation.
Where did you get your numbers for the amount of kE for taking deer? I would appreciate you citing a source. I have data from 7 western states game offices to share when I receive your citation of sources.
You've compared bullet caliber to being equivalent to the arrow, which is incorrect. The "caliber" of the bow is the bow's specs - draw length and draw weight, whereas the arrow equates to the bullet - the projectile.
You then use an age-old argument of throwing a "toothpick" at your buddy, versus throwing a Bowie knife at him.
This comparison is extremely disingenuous and inaccurate. A toothpick weighs 0.01 grams, while a Bowie knife weighs 425grams, the equivalent of shooting a bullet weighing 50grains versus one that weighs 5,000 grains. If you can, find me a caliber of civilian firearm that can shoot both and tell me how that turns out. You've made a comparison that equates to shooting an arrow that weighs 4.5 grains to one weighing 450 grains. Pretty far stretch there by any means.
I am quite certain that if you took off 25% of the total weight of the Bowie knife in your comparison by removing part of the wooden handle, and then threw that same sharp knife at your buddy, he'd be at least equally harmed, if not more by the lighter knife that is now travelling faster at his head. I can't weight for you to post that video
🤔
@@LancePostma-ry9mc The caliber to arrow weight is a comparison referring to the ammunition used. You actually proved my point. I go through this in the video. Your bow, draw length, and draw weight are the determining factors in what the optimal arrow weight is for that bow. I think you tried a little too hard at picking this apart versus understanding the analogy comparing ammunition and how the physics of weight affect both ammunition and arrows. The toothpick to Bowie knife example was supposed to illustrate a “far stretch” between the two.
As for the KE and Momentum minimum charts in the video, all you need to do is a simple google search and it pops right up and is featured on many industry websites. The formulas used are those utilized by the famous arrow researcher Ed Ashby.
Please look at what I’m saying in the video. I’m describing how to find the most optimal arrow weight for your bow. Not that you should just shoot heavy arrows.
@@theeverydaybowhunter It was apparent you'd cite Ashby. But what state agency or other sources do you have other than a "Google it" Reply?
Edit: I'll add that I've been a professional archery technician for over 2 decades... setting up hundreds of bows each year designed to efficiently kill elk and deer.
@@lspostma that’s great, but I haven’t seen any state agencies or game commissions state KE or momentum requirements. They usually post draw weight minimums like 35-40 lbs for example.
You will normally find the minimum KE requirements on arrow manufacturers websites, like Victory for example or BowHunting.com. If you’re working at an archery shop, you might want to read this stuff.
www.victoryarchery.com/kinetic-energy-calculator/
www.bowhunting.com/bowhunt101/how-much-kinetic-energy-for-bowhunting/
So my question to you is this because of your extensive experience: What am I wrong about in the arrow weight optimization process and did you actually watch the entire video?
Light arrows decelerate faster than heavier arrows. Shot the heaviest arrow you can with the trajectory you like out to ethical hunting distances for you. Know your max effective range as the gentlemen said.
Exactly. Thanks!
A LIGHT ARROW AND A HEAVY ARROW SHOT FROM THE SAME BOW HAVE THE SAME ENERGY PERIOD! THOSE THAT DONT UNDERSTAND THIS NEED A REFRESHER COURSE IN 4TH GRADE PHYSICS.
I’m sorry but that’s not just wrong, it’s very wrong. The kinetic energy of an arrow is determined by its mass and the velocity at which it is shot. While both arrows may be released with the same initial velocity, the heavier arrow has more mass, resulting in more kinetic energy. That’s the basic physics of it.
@@theeverydaybowhunter Everyone knows that a heavier arrow has more energy than a lighter arrow "WHEN THEY ARE MOVING AT THE SAME SPEED" due to Newton's 2nd law of motion. The problem you guys can't seem to solve is that when both arrows are shot out of the "SAME BOW", the heavier arrow is "NOT" moving at the speed as the lighter arrow because the bow can't accelerate the heavier arrow as fast as the lighter one because of the extra mass "THE HEAVIER ARROW HAS LESS VELOCITY". Another law that proves I'm right is known as the conservation of energy. You can't get free energy from nothing. You don't magically get more energy out of a bow by shooting a heavier arrow. This test has been done repeatedly by many reputable people and clearly shows the lighter arrows have just as much penetration as heavier arrows.
@@theeverydaybowhunterSo you're deleting my comment that proves you wrong on many levels?
You just replied to it. Your comment is still here. 🙄
Watch the video. I can tell you didn’t. This isn’t my first day. KE isn’t the only factor in arrow penetration. I can see that you don’t understand that. So stop trying to be smarter than you are and watch it and maybe I won’t have to keep trying to teach you basic arrow physics.
Its an arow bud chill out haha no one cares if u r an engineer no need to get mad about people openions even know he is right
"it's an arrow bud chill out"
If it's just an arrow and doesn't matter why do you still have a side you think is objectively right?
Maybe YOU don't care about engineers but they might be the only people willing to do the math on physics that most hunters are too dumb or lazy to put together
Being a ballistics expert does not open your mind as being an engineer, that's why you don't even know where to start with your explanation, your mind is all convoluted, you are a very narrow minded soldier.
Ok. Please explain. What am I missing?
No one knows... I liked the explanation