Dead of Winter | Continental Airlines Flight 1713
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- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
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Continental Airlines Flight 1713 was a commercial airline flight that crashed while taking off in a snowstorm from Stapleton International Airport in Denver, Colorado on November 15, 1987. The Douglas DC-9 was operated by Continental Airlines and was a scheduled flight to Boise, Idaho. Twenty-five passengers and three crew members died in the crash.
Music: The Only Light Is Gone
Artist: Dalo Vian
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• The Only Light Is Gone...
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For such a busy airport the communications between the tower and the planes was incredibly sloppy.
Yeah, basically what created confusion was because of this flight not communicating with ground control to get clearance to taxi to the de icing pad and instead requested clearance to taxi from the de icing pad which confused the controller
Controller had trouble keeping track of too many Continental flights, plus the pilots just seemed to taxi on their own without clearance.
Rest in peace capt. Frank and F/a Dianna. I miss you more everyday. I was there. The images won't go away, but neither will my fond memories of you.
If I'm ever on a flight and see snow building up on the wings while we wait for takeoff, you best be sure I'll be jumping out of my seat to tell the flight attendants. If they don't bother telling the pilot, then I'll be "one of those people" who creates a scene to get removed from the plane. I may be in jail for a little, but at least I'd be alive.
I always check to make sure the flaps come down as they push back and if there is any accumulation, I'm watching like a hawk. I'm with you man, if the aircraft isn't ready for departure, I'll be running up and down the aisle telling everybody there is a problem with the left philange. Have read way too many NTSB reports!
mjl1966y 😹😹 that's good but I also wanted to thank you for the image. It made me laugh! Which is always a good thing, don't you think? God bless you. 💕
Same here: Always watching from in the cabin for things like asymmetrical flaps (which should show an indication in the cockpit BTW). But even with all I know about airliner engineering and operation, there are still things I don't know and so "acting up" could backfire. Turns out, for example, that one or more versions of the A320 can take off with zero flaps in some cases. Suppose an airliner engineer -- but for a different manufacturer's airliners -- gets on the mic to the cockpit and persuades them with generalities to abort around V1 ("I'm an aircraft engineer-- we aren't airworthy!")... for something which turns out to be normal for that type. A whole new set of risks then come into play. Maybe best to just pull my seatbelt a bit tighter ; )
@@mjl1966y Likewise, I have flow so much I know the sequence of events prior to take off.
Kevbo Kev I’m thinking that plane that crashed into the Potomac in the 1980s was also due to icing - the pilots were from Florida and not as vigilant about de-icing or something like that. Can’t remember the details, but I think it was something similar to this.
The mix up started thanks to the pilot leaving the gate without informing, or having permission, from the tower. How irresponsible of him to do that. He also should've known about Continental's 20-minute policy of the deicing protocol yet decided to take off knowing it had been 27 minutes since the airplane had been de-iced. It sucks that other people's lives depend on the common sense of 1 or 2 people!
I like how Allec does the simulation through FSX with dialogs, and then going to full detail about why the plane crashed, and how to prevent it. I like it. There are not many channels like this. This channel deserves more than just 200k subs.
Xpilot: you sure about that lol
Yeah it even includes realistic soundsetr for the DC-9 LoL
Microsoft Flight Simulator X. As Real As It Gets.
deserves more than 200k subs? wow so nice of you to say.
@@Star737_yt and that's racist.... how?
@@quangminhnguyen2504 yes but he takes too long with the intro and adds stupid music, also at the end he puts annoying graphics and such.
I was getting on a plane in Colorado and noticed a ton of ice and snow on the wings. The captain and co-pilot were in the cockpit, smiling and saying hello and I was one of those people and said, "You guys are de-icing this, yes?" "Absolutely," came the reply. I apologized for being an armchair pilot but you never know obviously. We did de-ice and took off shortly after. It was pretty cool to watch the de-icing; huge slabs of ice slid off the wings, like a inch thick. And even with that, more ice came off when they lowered the flaps and slats for takeoff. It's really amazing how fast ice contaminates the wing.
I remember that day. I was in the travel business so I heard about it quickly. Plus, my cousin was supposed to work that flight, however had to get a replacement. It’s one I won’t forget.
@Kay Ward
Your cousin was a pilot or FA? What did they say after the crash happened? Thanks.
watershed44 I learned of my cousin through his uncle so never heard a comment from him. We didn’t.t live in the same state and didn’t see each other much after we were adults. He was a FA.
Thanks for the reply.
Wow...soo glad your cousin DIDNT work that flight that day..
Countess of Groan your name is appropriate. Check your facts honey. You are absolutely wrong about this one. Besides, if the date was not on there I was in the business and had ways of checking these things and I DO remember that incident well.
I was actually on the plane in the queue behind this plane and checking my watch, as I have flown many hours in small Cessna's so knew the rules about de-icing. I was very very close to standing up on the plane I was on to make a scene so we wouldn't take off. I witnessed the crash from my seat though somewhat obscured by the weather. I then spent the next 9 hours in the airport with grieving people, priests, and police thinking that could have been me. A very sad series of events that day that still makes me think how fragile life really is.....
Kenneth Elsman oh wow that must have been really scary to have watched that crash. I'm very happy that you are safe though. God bless you. 💕
I was a pilot for Continental based in DEN, had been flying B727 as CA and was now on the DC 10 based (commuting) in HNL when the crash happened...but Colorado was still my home. I knew the copilot by sight, quiet nice guy. This video is a bit misleading...it puts the entire blame on radio communication as the primary cause. All Continental Captains are responsible (as are any other Captains) but we are "hammered" in training to check the wings (because we can see them from INSIDE the aircraft) and determine positively that there is no ice/snow adhering... we are keenly aware of the time since de-ice and anyone I knew would check those wings by walking back through the aisle and taking a look. It is certainly not the case that because there was radio confusion there was a crash. Many times the aircraft are delayed for whatever reason and take off beyond the hold over times...I am retired now, DEN had fantastic controllers and they did it all right here. It is sloppy to taxi to the de-ice without calling...that is FREAKY...I don't remember in my whole career anyone taxiing a Continental Aircraft without talking to someone...wtf//////??? I hate to say it ...but weak command was the blame from my point of view...not taking a look at those wings was not ok...everytime we de-iced in DEN and that was a LOT...we checked if delayed and it was snowing...I guess getting in a hurry and complacency caught up with this crew.
Some people blame Frank Lorenzo for hiring borderline pilots.
Thanks for sharing all of that. In your opinion how is it possible for an experienced pilot (admittedly not as captain) to allow all of these screw ups to take place? How could someone apparently so lax regarding procedures fly for 12,000 + hours without any major incidences taking place, just dumb luck or possibly bad luck on this day?
The video didn’t place the entirety of blame on the controllers. It also stated that the First Officer pitched the plane up too steeply, causing drag which, coupled with ice on the wings, caused the aircraft to stall.
It also said that both the captain and the First Officer were inexperienced and that the First Officer in particular had a history of poor performance.
I had a friend who was based in HNL on the DC-10 who commuted from SAN. He also flew 737 for a while. You may have seen him hanging his head out the storm window trying to get the ramp crew to function wearing his train engineer's hat from time to time. Jim Moffet. I rode jump seat on many of his flights. Being on 727, do you remember Fred Ordway? He used to mountain bike with us.
No, this video does not put the "entire blame" on radio communications. Did you actually watch the video while not drunk or asleep? Part of the blame is also put on the first officer rotating twice as fast as it should have been and part on the caption not being prepared for flying a DC-9 in icing conditions. I actually watched it. Also, the video pretty much concurs with the NTSB's final synopsis of the tragedy.
Thanks for the great historic graphics showing the old Stapleton Airport, Allec. I spent a lot of time flying in & out of there in my teens & 20's and your scenes depict it very accurately.
I've got me 36 hours of flying experience on this here jet plane. Let me take control!
I'm not sure the lack of experience of jet powered aircraft had any bearing on the outcome, the result would have been the same on a prop aircraft.
No, “let me take control, and try to get this bird airborne in icy conditions, and let me see if I can get a tail strike to boot”, after exceeding the safety re-deice protocol of 20 minutes, by 7 minutes! 😱😱😬 What happened at the Potomac River on 1/13/82 never came to mind, or the lesson learned was not fully comprehended 😱😱😳😳
Who lets knuckleheads like these guys get in the cockpit?😬😬😬😬
same here
@Marlin M heres something to blow your mind. Quite a few times on commercial jets it's the first officers 1st time flying an actual jet. Part of the line training is a lot of hours with a training captain. Obviously at the time of this screw up they didnt even consider a low time FO paired with a rookie captain.
In two weeks, it will have been exactly thirty-three years since my boss and friend of over seven years, former USMC Marine Max Richter, age forty-five, died aboard Flight #1713. I had worked with him since 1980 in Boise, Idaho, where the jet was headed to on that day. In fact, Max had successfully been attempting to quit smoking that year, and so instead of sitting in the back of the plane where all the smokers sat, on this day, he sat directly over the left wing. None of the people in the back of the plane that day perished in that fiery crash.
When I would later clean out his desk, I came across a folder that contained a list of essential items to pack for his hunting trips, as Max was fond of deer and elk hunting, having grown up in Montana. And on a very old, yellowed piece of paper, was a comprehensive list of cold-weather equipment and clothing, safety gear, etc., as Max was without a doubt the most safety-conscious, careful, and also the most observant man I have ever known, before or since. Among some other items that belonged to Max, I still have that list.
Anyway, at the top of this ancient, well-used page, written in what was ostensibly a much younger man's handwriting (but it was definitely Max's handwriting), was Item Number One, which Max must have decided was the most important item, and he had it spelled out clearly and listed it as just a single thought and word: EXPERIENCE. - j q t -
As awful as these fatal crashes are, it's always interesting to note each and every link in the chain that leads to disaster. Perhaps if just one of those links were removed, the crash might not have happened (much like the Tenerife disaster).
Also, I'm a nurse and working on my required continued education and some of them made references to safety in the Aviation Industry. We are trying to follow the same guidelines and safety pathways that many airlines follow. I was pleasantly surprised by that. It would be a good thing too since the US still has over 200,000 people who die from medical errors every year.
Thank you for another great video. I sure do appreciate all the excellent work you put into them.
200,000 a year? This is what scares me about the I'm also a nurse studying bullshit. The number is way higher. Just like the CCP the figures are manipulated. Who knows if you're really Amy Ann?
@Amy Ann; @Blue collar Silver dollar; I co-piloted repositions for the first and best iteration of EASTERN AIR LINES, which, too, was owned by Lorenzo; he was no Bob Six, in '87, an expansion was taking place throughout the entire industry, and *everyone* needed pilots, that's how they wound up with a "green F.O.", the lower echelon needed to weed him out. Fifteen hours in "pure" jets isn't enough time to even consider risking livery/revenue flight.
RIP To my friend, † Eastern Airlines Captain Karl Idell, born, 1931; his "last flight", was 30 January, 2020. We'll get that corned beef at Wolfie's later...
I lived in the Villages of Homestead, on Flamingo Ct.; PUMPERNIK'S??? Redlands??, that "wooden barn gas station on Alligator Alley, where the bell would ring, in the men's room, and the ducks would run out of a hole in the wall" - and I'd run outside at relieve myself on the tire of that bastards tow truck.
I retired in '98, as a BAC Avionics support engineer, I did the MCDU's on the 777; did you crew the 772's at UAL??
I actually met, then became friends with Al Haynes, when he did the speaking tours, I picked him up on his arrival to PHL, oh, hell, we'll have to talk. Thank you!! Ever hop the EAL Friday night L1011 jump seat, KMIA to KPHL??
*I'd rather be Flying, but my ass no longer shoehorn's into the cockpit, and my ex wife would announce over the PA, "medical, what medical??"*
@Professor Mike AmericanuckRadio Thank you for your comment!! 👍
@Professor Mike AmericanuckRadio I blame the person. Not who they take money from. What would be the point of an Oath?
Oh how sad that several mess-ups and bad situations caused this major SNAFU in the end! So sorry people died. As a former director in healthcare, I can assure you bad apples used to get bounced around from place to place. So we finally learned to ask the million-dollar question, “Would you re-hire this person again?” The answer told us all we needed to know.
RIP folks on this plane. It’s too bad your lives were in the hands of combined inexperience and a certain amount of debauchery.
Once again, a story of a sad accident told with expertise and feeling. Thanks. Allec.
Another question I would ask, Would "you"( the corporate execs that made these decisions) board a plane with these two pilots flying together?
I thought this was going to end up in a collision between planes on the runway.
christosvoskresye so did I! I kept waiting for it (and cringing each time thought it was coming)!
@@menosbbgirl That made three of us. Not to say there would be better off one plane crashing, but three would have been catastrophic
I knew that I was waiting for something bad, very bad
Me too.
In that mess, I'm surprised it didn't...
Goes to show you how extremely important good and clear communication is. RIP passengers and crew of Continental Airlines flight 1713.
not as important as common sense. sure poor communication is annoying but it is not what made this situation fatal. the poor communication could had them play musical chairs for hours and get covered up like wedding cakes in ice and there still would have been no crash if the dumb humans involved had simply had the common sense to check the wings. They would have simply not taken off and had to go back to de ice. annoying but not dangerous at all.
@Jack Casey well someone certainly felt spoken to by my inept little piece of writing ;) (by the way as i wrote that i also ommited the 'my' and just added it in now). I think the subsequent use of grammar showed hat i would have used the 'have', had i gone over what i had written, it being glaringly obvious that there needed to be a 'have' there. Luckily this is at most a sign of mild dyslexia (or some may want to call it sloppiness since i often fail to capitalise the 'i' or the first word of a new sentence), not a lack of intellect or common sense which i was accusing people of. On the other hand, your reponse in which you fail to make any meaningful argument concerning the content of what i wrote, instead pathetically grasping for some unrelated little morsel of ammunition against me is a sign of your immaturity and pettiness.
First officer has 3,000 hours, 36 on jets. That is the perfect guy to pilot a takeoff in a snowstorm. Luckily he also had a history of poor performance.
This crew of absolute Chads had a combined flight time of 15,311 hours, but just 202 in a DC-9.
*_GLORIOUS._*
Yeah, but he did stay at a Holiday Inn the night before.
Holy lawsuit, Batman
@@dondajulah4168 i hope they got sum there the night b 4..
maybe the captain didn't have those informations...
Allec,
I’ve been waiting for you to make this video for awhile because I remember this very day! I still have the next day’s Denver Post with the headline “26 DIE AS JET FLIPS”. I was 13 and it was the first time in my lifetime that a major, fatal aircraft incident happened in the town where I lived. It was pivotal in my life, as I have been, like you - interested in these occurences ever since. For me, initially it was this incident that was my genesis in caring about these events, why and how they happened, etc. as macabre as it seems to some; I, for one want to applaud you for the job you do with these videos. They are the best there are and I rank them up there with the Air Safety Institute’s videos in terms of quality and sensitivity. The music you play, particularly in this video gets me every time. If I had a way to do so I would give you my copy of that day’s Denver Post from November 1987. I don’t know why I still have it, but I clearly kept it because it meant a lot to me. Almost 33 years later I don’t need it anymore, but I’m glad I had it to thumb through. You nailed the accuracy in this video as you do in your others as I have been a loyal viewer for years. I have watched them all and will continue to do so. Thank you for your excellent work, Alec.
He really is a Smart Alec.
I went to school with the co pilot. He was very popular and a really good guy. Knew him all through Jr and high school. So sad
Very good Allec. I've never heard about this accident. Very sad and preventable. Continental was a good airline. Their founder had a great relationship with Delta founder, C.E. Woolman. They both thought alike and discussed merging many times, but never did.
Another great, but sad video. Another plane crash that didn't have to happen. Allec, your vids r great. Thanx.
Another amazing video! I get the notification and I'm immediately watching it! As usual well done friend! Such a sad story. I wouldn't have ever thought that another 7 minutes in the snow could be the difference between life or death. Not to mention a problematic first officer and a rookie captain. A recipe for disaster! Thanks for the awesome video Alec!
Ice buildup features prominently in a lot of these videos. It turns wings into blunt instruments.
Am I the only one who thinks laws should be passed compelling airlines to disclose the reasons poorly performing pilots are dismissed when contacted by another airline considering hiring those pilots? Also, the dismissing airline should be protected from lawsuits.
Well, sometimes labor laws are tricky at times, on one hand you need to protect the employer, but in essence what have happened now with the labor laws is that the person who is less powerful(in a monetary sense) should be more protected and cared by law, and sometimes it is reasonable because maybe the company has very demanding and even impossible expectations for their crew, but this would mean that they would have a high turnover rate, but instead, in automatic, the law favors the employee who is more weak and powerless to the "imperialistic bastard airline company"
I think new hires should be flying the plane while experienced captains watch them closely during a 6-month probation period. If the new hire is underperforming, the captains will find out quickly and get rid of them - or at least alert the company that the hire needs more training.
Some companies probably do something similiar already.
No need to change any laws that weaken the position of employees and set a precedent that companies in other fields will abuse to weaken the position of their employees.
13:15 I was the Chief Pilot at the airline that fired Lee Breucher. I was also a training Check Airman and had been asked to train Lee as a Captain. He had been flying our turboprop aircraft as a First Officer (copilot). During several hours of training it became clear to me that Lee’s sense of spatial and situational awareness was poor. I knew Lee personally and liked him as a person. It pained me to tell him that I could not qualify him as a Captain. I heard several months after he left the airline I worked for that he had been hired at Continental. THEY NEVER CONTACTED me or anyone at my airline to inquire about Lee’s performance. It WAS NOT our lack of reporting to Continental. This was a truly tragic and avoidable accident for so many reasons.
36 hours flying jet aircraft - incredible. And previous employers afraid of lawsuits. What a country.
Compare air accident records for the sorts of countries where previous employers are afraid of lawsuits to countries where that is not true, and you might find that air travel is far safer in the former group. Not because of that directly, of course, but rather that a strong rule-of-law culture (which typically includes "if someone says something injurious about you, they should be prepared to back it up") usually goes hand-in-hand with other cultural norms which contribute to safe operation of complex systems. "Usually", but not always, as this crash sadly exemplifies. Lessons were learned at the cost of lives, but at least the system was subsequently made safer as a result.
@Doug Kirk Not flying with an inexperienced pilot dumbass
@MarkMaki I did hundreds of pre employment background investigations and believe me they are no picnic. Due to lawsuits many employers would only confirm dates of employment. Nothing on job titles, salary and most of all performance on the job. Often times you had to get creative to get more than the most rudimentary results. The firm doing the hiring were for the most part very aware of this policy as most of them did the very same thing. They just authorized pre employment investigations to cover their own behinds if something went awry with a new hire. The whole thing could get very farcical at times.
@@8House Yes, those potential lawsuits result in holding back far too much critical information in so many critical jobs/industries. And congress won't help - too tied up with the ABA.
@@billolsen4360 Basically i guess it is the people that are afraid, maybe also they might have fired that person for illegal reasons(remember, being unable to get a promotion, in this case failing to become a captain, doesnt give the company the excuse to fire them on the spot, he was unfit for flying, so he should be given another position on the crew until he got enough knowledge on how to fly a damn plane), so maybe they fired him because they needed someone to be a captain but they might done it in an illegal way, so that's why they might have been reluctant to disclose those failings, or they might have been afraid for a defamation lawsuit, people dont like going to court, and especially corporations dont want to get into a courtroom because even being right and having proof to dismiss the claims, still it is negative publicity to get into a court as a defendant
Disturbing number of mistakes made by numerous people ultimately leading and linking to a tragic finale. Well done, Alec!
7:19 wooo Allec taking her up STEEP
7:17 OOOOF, THAT was a tailstrike!
I thought I saw that too
If not, it was pretty close. If that were real footage I'd say they came within inches.
Looked to me like they could have planted corn in that new furrow!
OK, now I feel old officially. I was working in Continental dispatch the day this happened. It was so bad I even forgot there were survivors. Other than our DC-10 fire at LAX one time, this was our only incident in many years. This was post Lorenzo takeover by TexasAir, thus the DC-9-10's we inherited. Our other DC-9's were all -30 series [mostly 32 with -9B power] which had leading edge slats. I had also forgotten about the 27 minute wait and we just attributed it to the wing not having the leading edge devices for added lift. I have a question though. Did they really fail to raise the gear after attaining a positive rate? That prolly would have been the difference maker as well. Lorenzo created a lot of problems that made it extremely difficult to make ends meet in the operation, and I'm sure crew scheduling was one of them. The DoJ barred him for life against any equity or executive role in any airline in the end. I quit after the second of his planned bankruptcies.
Genda Minoru, I may have worked your load planning for some of your flights. I was in Load planning with Continental in Denver. Do you recall Dispatcher at KIAH, name of Knippell?
Genda Minoru that Lorenzo sounds horrific. Sorry you had to go through that!💖
Hey then you were trained by the chain smoking Pat Luthy. What a woman she was hu? Knipple sounds familiar - it's been a long time. How did you like keeping track of all Lorenzo'a acquisitions? What was it 5 different MD-80 configs, People's Express 747, Eastern A-300. What a menagerie that was. I liked it when we only had DC-10-10 and DC-10-30 and 727 and DC-9 and our own MD-80s were just coming on line.
Genda Minoru, I started out working for PE, then they acquired Frontier, which later, was all acquired by CO! Multiple names within a short span.In Denver, during the summer, I hated when we were issued a 727-9, that came from the east going to LAX! The temperature, would kill the load planning! And then that DC--10, DEN to LHR, bad news, when the Den temp was high. Had one ETD 1930, Had to wait until 2300 for the temp to drop, so it could depart! Yes, the good all days! I now reside in Spain, retired from ATC, just staying safe and healthy indoors.
Always waiting for your videos, Allec. Thanks in advance.
I’m about 6 minutes into this video and I’m confused already!
At the 5 minute & change bit? me too! Suddenly plane takes off. But this actually happened.
That’s why it crashed . Confused pilots and tower re: de- ice and who’s on first . Just like in real life . These boys were confused. Bad radio . Hence :: it makes us confused in following it . Get it ?
Exactly my friend, you are not by yourself.
I about needed a picture drawn to understand what was going on.
Same thing here. I couldn't believe the cluster f... ensuing.
As someone who has flown out of DIA several times, let me mention a few things. Depending on when it snows, snow in Denver can be very powdery or very wet. The wet snow is, of course, heavy and sticky. Also, by 1985, Stapleton was “on its way out” due to crowding from downtown and lack of advanced ground detectors. Yes, there should have been a “closed loop” in communication from plane to tower, all confusing orders should have been requested to be repeated. I lay more blame than the NTSB did on ATC. If you can’t visualize the planes, you need to spend extra time understanding where each plane was in the queue. The plane in question should have NEVER been given clearance to fly. The ATC had no actual proof they ever went to de-ice. They should have directed back to the de-ice pad and then advised to re-enter the takeoff queue. At DIA, I have been in the airport when airport managers have put holds on take-offs for the weather. Presumably, they do for situations such as this, each plane is confirmed to have completed de-icing by ground staff and then allowed by ATC to enter the queue for take-off.
I respect and appreciate your professional opinion. The crew should have contacted ground for taxi clearance and after getting deiced been aware of their holdover time - once exceeded (if only by one second) they should have requested a return to the deice pad. Also the Captain could have advised the 1st officer, "Look, I realize this is your segment but I'm flying this one - you can have the next two" (that is, if circumstances permitted). (just my humble opinion with 45 years in the profession).
@@robertmack8467 Well, i dont know who takes this decision, but i guess what happens usually is that they coordinate on whoever will fly the plane and whoever will manage the bureaucracy, checklists and managing communications with ATC and configuring the flight computer, and take glance at the instruments and check their readings, usually the later is given to the first officer, while flying the plane is the responsibility of the captain, in some cases those roles are shifted basically, maybe because captain might be fatigued, maybe because they believe they can do better in that way, i dont really know, and in those conditions, having the first officer fly is foolish
This was at Stapleton
@@journeystarr Um, yeah....I guess you missed the part where I said, "by 1985, Stapleton was on its way out". DIA is what the locals call Denver International Airport, on Peña Blvd, AKA DEN.
@@Zekrom569 Decisions to clear for takeoff are always made by ATC. There is no reason F.O's can't take off in bad conditions, they, for the most part, will end up being captains.
Alec I like how your videos get straight to the point, and then explain in great detail what the investigation turned up.
I was departing Stapleton the day after the crash and, to be honest, it was very disconcerting.
The communication and ground control guidance was an absolute debacle. To think I flew into and out of this airport only two years later. Glad I didn’t remember this.
Allec, the crash simulation is absolutely perfect! Awesome job!
Well done Allec . . . your productions are powerful . . . flight crew screening is so VERY important . . . to all of us . . .
Tragic, thanks for the video and explaining what happened, Allec.
Allec always gives us a very informative and well done video. he goes into great detail for us and I really like that.
Thanks Alllec..your the best channel on you tube 💯💕
It's noted that both pilots were inexperienced for these conditions, with the F/O having a record of poor performance. One needs to look at this condition. During the 1980s the CEO of Continental Airlines was Frank Lorenzo, who was known to pay far below the going industry norms for his pilots. Result: He gets people that nobody else would hire. This did not improve until Lorenzo got the heave-ho and new management made changes.
Jon Rabben you have no idea what your talking about!!! Old Frontier (the original) New York Air, People Express and the Old Continental guys (not the 83 hire scabs) were all great guys and mostly military! You have to remember the 80’s and 90’s there were a glut of highly skilled and professional!
I agree. Lorenzo was a huge part of the problem
Oh my... lot of Continentals here, no wonder why the ATC was so confused.
I think Denver was one of their hubs, if I'm not mistaken.
@@robs5688 yes, Denver was one of continental's hubs before united bought them. Now Denver is United's hub
@Rob S; Denver was their main Avionics repair facility; fqis, clocks, RNAV,TCAS/VSI/RA, radios, radar, etc...
@Countess of Groan the stretched DC9 is the MD 80 series.
@@Trckstr971 Denver was a hub for United Airlines long before they bought Continental Airlines in 2010, since the 1950s or 1960s. Continental also had a competing hub there as well and when it came time to move from Stapleton International Airport to the new Denver International Airport, Continental balked at the higher fees for operating at DIA and decided to dismantle the hub and serve Denver only from its other hubs in 1993, giving United a windfall there with almost no competition until the new Frontier Airlines started flying in 1994.
What a screwup. May the victims of Continental Airlines flight 1713 RIP. Thoughts and prayers to them and to the survivors.
Miscommunication and "disunderstanding" on both airplanes parts. As well at the ATC guy. As often seems to happen in these. This shows why you must be thorough and CLEAR in your communications with ATC.
Great Video Allec👍👍
Also an important part of the lead up to the the crash was the fact flight 1713 didn't inform the controller they were initially starting the first taxi. The controller didn't really know they were there until the end. Bad pilot behaviour unfortunately. Sad.
You create excellent videos! I'm worried that soon you won't have any more crashes to make videos of 😕
Thank you for all your hard work!
Great video ! Like always
Excellent simulation with description. Pretty neatly done ✅
One factor not mentioned was the fact that the original DC-9-10 series, of which this was an example of, has no leading edge slats, unlike later DC-9 and MD-80 versions. The deployment of leading edge slats can often break off any ice that may have formed in the interim. Several other DC-9-10 aircraft have also had accidents in icing conditions that would have been unlikely with later DC-9 variants.
One thing not mentioned is that the -10 series DC-9 didn't have leading edge slats. This made those airplanes (all retired nowadays, I think) especially susceptible to icing. A significant percentage of the fleet was lost due to accidents involving icing.
Total snafu. Two crews failed to notify the tower of their intentions, and the tower (and ground control) never double-checked anything when they should have sensed something was wrong. And those 2 pilots of the accident plane sounded like real plungers. Sheesh. Nice vid, Allec... :)
What did you do with the time you saved not typing eo?
burt2481 oh my gosh 😹😹😹💕
Another factor may have been a problem. It was discovered after the Air Florida crash under similar circumstances in Washington DC. When a wing is compromised with ice and snow, the center of lift shifts forward and causes the plane to pitch up on liftoff. It is immediately in a stall angle of attack which gives the pilot few options if he is already at max thrust and begins to drop.
When an airline pilot has a record of poor performance, that pilot's previous airline should be allowed by law to give that info to a potential future employer. Then those people would not have died.
I wonder how much of the F/O's previous "poor performance" was related to hot-headedness, which this accident displayed. IMHO, the F/O pitched the nose up to double what it should have been because he was pissed at how long this takeoff had been delayed, and then getting their takeoff position jumped by the other plane. Anger or impatience have no place in the cockpit.
@@hshs5756 Absolutely! And I also wonder why Continental Airlines hired him after he had gotten fired by his previous airlines. He really must have fooled them!!!
Sounds like CA did a shoddy job of digging into that fool's record. He had no business in any cockpit.
@@GroomLeader Right! And I have heard that back then C.A. had a horrific reputation for bad pilots, old & beat up airplanes, etc. That's inexcusable when people's lives are at stake!!! No wonder C.A. went out of business!
this is what happens in countries like the USA with its amoral lawyers and litigious nature
RIP to those lost, another lesson learned, thank you for your sacrifice
It’s incredible the amount of accidents that involved Douglas planes.
Tricky one, I think Zvonek not obtaining clearance to taxi to de-ice pad led to the initial confusion.
I'm a pilot as you can see from my photo. Why dies Zvonek ring a bell? I'll ponder that one a while.
@@johnemerson1363 hmmmmm - sounds like he was related to Zobayan perhaps ...
@@robertmack8467 I don't know--I met someone name Zvonok some where but I don't know when or why, but the name still rings a bell.
Man, not gonna lie, I had to back up and re-read some of what was happening just so I could figure out just what exactly was transpiring . Definitely a lot of confusion, but I had the luxury to back-up and figure it out. Everyone else involved didn't, so it's no wonder what had happened on that day. THEN I see all the other things concerning the co-pilot! Yeesh! Unfreakinbelievable! Great video (as usual😉).
Keep up the great work!👍🏻
I worked for CAL during that time. Lorenzo was a BAW. A garden hose would suit a hydraulic line.
"BAW"? Not familiar with that one.
Great video Alec, a serious causes of events, rip lost souls, 🙏.
In 1987, I flew on a very regular basis into and out of Stapleton Airport. Fortunately never to Boise. And mostly on Continental Airlines. If have never realized how fortunate I was until after I saw this video. It seems that Continental Airlines was more incompetent than I ever would have guessed. May the 28 on board Flight 1713 who perished forever rest in peace.
What is that creature in your avatar?
Soooo many errors and poor decisions made by soooo many. Surprised the aircraft even found the runway.
Wow ! This reminded me of a 3 Stooges short ! How in the world can the right hand NOT know what the left hand is doing !?! There should be better communication and protocols in place to prevent this kind of tragedy !
The NTSB investigated the accident.[12][13]
In July 1988, Continental Airlines filed a report with the NTSB positing the causes of the crash as wake turbulence, poor snow plowing on the runway and errors by air traffic controllers.[14] However, the NTSB investigated the wake-turbulence theory and concluded that wake turbulence from the preceding flight would not have affected Flight 1713.[1]:44
During the investigation, the crew's little experience on the DC-9 was brought into question.[15][16][17] Investigators also discovered that prior to being hired by Continental, Bruecher had been dismissed by another airline after failing on three occasions to pass a flight exam.[18][19] Investigators likewise determined that first officer Bruecher was at the controls at the time of the accident.[19]
Investigators determined that 27 minutes elapsed between the conclusion of de-icing and Flight 1713's attempt to take off, seven minutes longer than should have been allowed to elapse before takeoff. The NTSB concluded that the wing surface became contaminated by a build-up of ice on the wings of Flight 1713 prior to departure, based on reports from surviving passengers that they had seen "patches" of ice on the wing after deicing was complete.[1]:33 Investigators also concluded that enough wet snow landed on Flight 1713 after deicing was complete to melt and dilute the deicing fluid, which allowed ice to reform on the wings.[1]:33 According to the aircraft's manufacturer, even a modest amount of ice contamination on the upper wing could impair the lifting performance of the wings and lead to loss of roll and pitch control.[1]:33-34 Based on this, the NTSB concluded that a small amount of ice on the wings had caused Flight 1713 to have significant controllability problems.[1]:35
The NTSB also determined that the first officer's poor performance during takeoff had likely contributed to his loss of control of the airplane.[1]:36 The first officer rotated the airplane at more than 6 degrees per second, or twice the recommended rate.[1]:36 Combined with the effects of ice on the wing, the high climb rate caused the plane's left wing to stall and the plane to begin rolling over.[1]:36 Flight 1713 was Bruecher's first flight after a 24-day absence from flight duties, and the NTSB concluded that this prolonged absence had eroded the newly hired first officer's retention of his recent training, which contributed to his poor takeoff performance.[1]:37
On September 27, 1988, the NTSB published a final report on its investigation into the crash, attributing the accident to the captain's failure to have the plane de-iced a second time, the first officer's poor takeoff performance, confusion between the pilots and air traffic controllers which contributed to delays, compounded by a cockpit crew where both pilots were relatively inexperienced on the aircraft type.[1]:ii Specifically, the NTSB concluded:
The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the captain's failure to have the airplane deiced a second time after a delay before takeoff that led to upper wing surface contamination and a loss of control during rapid takeoff rotation by the first officer. Contributing to the accident were the absence of regulatory or management controls governing operations by newly qualified flight crew members and the confusion that existed between the flightcrew members and air traffic controllers that led to the delay in departure.[1]:44 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Airlines_Flight_1713
Survivors 54
I believe there is MUCH improved Ground radar & communication today at airports in general.
There's a lot of 'runway crashes / colissions' back in the 70's-90's I think air traffic had increased faster than the Tech to keep it all sorted out.
One of the many aspects that make our air travel safer due to lessons learned from the lives lost back then !
RIP to the 25 victims & crew !
Mother Goose Agree 100%!!!
Wow you renovate your sim know looks amazing
With all the mistakes made from the start, it’s not a surprise this was the end result.
I remember this crash and reading about it. One of the passengers was jammed against another passengers so tightly, and being upside down, she had trouble breathing, and later died. What a horrific situation to be in.
Who you are, where you are and what you want to do. Also, see and be seen. The airport should have closed circuit monitoring of areas like run-up or ramp, de-ice and take-off and landing areas that cannot be seen from the Tower, especially in low visibility conditions.
Continental, PanAm and Eastern airlines were the shit back in the day. The were the big time US commercial carriers back then. They all suffered such tragic ends
Where does that crash and roll at the end come from? Is it from Flight Simulator or something else? Is that something new? I haven't seen that in many of your videos but maybe because I've watched a lot of the older ones and haven't seen much of the newer.
whats the sound pack that you use for the jets. I don't have fs2004 but I would like to convert the sound pack from this DC9 (unless its payware because then that's pirating) to work with fsx.
So many factors here. Pilots inexperienced, radio miscomunication, airport with no aircraft ground control system...and the weather. I think airport's lack of such system was determinal.
Geeze instructing Continental was like herding Cats...
Was trying to land that day. We circled for 3 hours, before diverting to Colorado Springs. So many things were happening on our flight. And announcements didn’t seem right. A runway closed due to weather. Then airport closed due to weather. Someone was keeping a Continental guy across the aisle. Heard, airport closed due to crash with fatalities. Our inconvenience was nothing compared to those who lost their lives. When we finally got everything together, and lifted off, the no smoking sign was turned off. Could hear people in the back light up. Most actually clapped, knowing what they went through not being able to light, all the while we sat on the ramp, with engine(s) running.
I remember this .Was living in Colorado at the time. Weather wise , the 1980s saw some brutal winters in the state
Early ones too, apparently. This was only November.
Whoa, that was some tailstrike when the 727 took off... *wink wink* Excellent video, as always! I've learned a ton about emergency management and conscientious flying from them.
So many things went wrong, however you would have thought that somebody would have asked the co-pilot about the number of flight hours completed on this aircraft, right?
The FO was only 26 years old, and 43 year old Captain Zvonek learned to fly in the Navy and became a naval flight instructor before he joined Continental Airlines. His brother said he rose to the rank of colonel in the Navy Reserve. His training should have made him "look sideways" at the FO the whole time and be ready to take over, but it just didn't happen.
If you've had lots of success at a job like that, it's probably easy to fall into a false sense of complete competence and get lax.
This is a nightmare...just reading the 'one thing after another, after another'. A train wreck in all aspects. So glad for those who did survive, and how awful for the casualties.
In an industry I used to work in, the HR managers of competing companies had an informal agreement with each other that they would speak to each other candidly and off the record to help keep each other from hiring bad apples. Too bad the airlines didn't have this going on.
There needs to be some law immunizing the previous employers from litigation in the event that they truthfully make known poor performance or any negative comments regarding the employees that they let go. Just passing a bad employee off to another airline is terrible and can be tragic.
Me. Beech 18. Danville, IL 1977. Emery Air Freight.
Blowing snow. 18 positioned crossways to wind for 2 or 3 hours. I checked the left, upwind wing for snow & ice...very little. I didn't check the downwind wind. Took off. Full left rudder & ailerons couldn't compensate. Reduced power of left engine to 50% & barely got my stupid ass out of there. Didn't even consider a return to field. Flew to Champaign on everything left with reduced power, some accumulation had blown off enroute, landed okay. Ice was under the snow. Big Lesson Learned. Watch your ass. Think. Don't be lazy!
Unskilled incompetent pilots with a history of failures being hired is a real menace. This has happened in other accidents as well.
This was certainly a disaster waiting to happen. Those poor passengers had no chance! Irresponsible conduct all round.
Excellent reporting Allec.
Stay safe everyone from a locked down 👋🇿🇦
In addition to all the other factors mentioned here, the fact that this model of the DC-9 didn't have any L/E devices (slats and/or flaps) made it much more susceptible to the adverse effects of any ice contamination on the "hard" leading edges of the wings. This would also be a factor in the subsequent crashes of Air Ontario 1383 in Dryden Ontario, and USAir 405 at LGA, both of which were Fokkers without any L/E devices. I attended the NTSB hearings on this Denver accident, and the "hard wing" aspect was a "gotcha" on this particular aircraft type was a subject that didn't get much attention in the training process compared with the other DC-9/MD-80 types in the airline's fleet at the time.
"In response to the accident, the NTSB recommended that inexperienced pilots should not fly the DC 9, or any other aircraft, for that matter."
♫ On Continental Airlines, ♫
♫ We really move our tail for you!! ♫
Under Robert Six' & Audrey Meadows' leadership, Continental's slogan slogan was "The Proud Bird with the Golden Tail" but not set to music.
WOW!! this kinda reminds me of AIR FLORIDA PALM 90.
It does feel similar. I live in the D.C. area and I still can't look at that bridge.
Except the Air Florida crash resulted from not utilizing engine anti-icing, thus attempting a takeoff with considerably less than appropriate takeoff thrust due to erroneous engine thrust readings, not contaminated wings from icing.
Wow scary that a poor pilot can get through so easily then again thinking about that German Wings plane shows that it still happenes.
My brother is a Capt. W/another major airline.
For years he has warned me Not To Fly with Continental due to poor maintenance and less than adequate flight crews!
A whole bunch of Continental planes!
one of the worst air disasters in the 1980s. Will never forget the people who died.
Sileiu tragedy all the way around. I think what was worse was the mayor politicizing it to push for a new airport.
Not even close. Do your homework.
Skinner Hound I heard Pena standing on the tarmac holding his little press conference and sat we need a new airport. So yeah I have done my homework there.
You’re both right. Peña did use the incident to get DIA approved by the voters. And I think the 2nd comment was in response to the statement of it being one of the worst of the 80’s. The reason most people haven’t heard of this crash is because it was not at all one of the worst of the 80’s. Many other accidents killed a lot more people than this one did.
@@KMS5280 Thank you. JAL 124 killed 520 in 1985. Sileiu's comment was fiction.
7:16 - That's an aggressive takeoff.
In freezing precip, the wing may or may not fly at V2 (or even V2+20 knots), especially if it's a 'hard wing' (no leading edge high-lift devices) like this one was. If one must start a takeoff in those conditions in ANY aircraft it would be better to rotate the machine at the deduced speed, but only slowly and gradually to a couple or three degrees. Then let the airplane come off the ground on its own when it's ready to fly. Your balanced field is blown all to hell, but your overall safety factor just increased exponentially...
ALL of these mistakes are what we're taught from day one of private pilot training. All BASIC stuff. Once airborne, you don't aim for the sun. And the captain was so incompetent, he shouldn't have been allowed in an ultralight. It's amazing how two assholes can manage to meet up in one cockpit, and kill 26 innocent people. They broke just about every rule there is in a situation like this....
I’m no pilot but shouldn’t there be a setable sound alarm when 20 minutes expires? Also shouldn’t an alarm go off when the optimal take off angle is exceeded, thus preventing a stall?
Nice video, Wayne Runway Collision if you have time? :)
Please use red instead of white over grey to hard to read
Good video
The issue was initially created by the aircraft going to the de-icing pad without clearance. All went downhill from there. For the idiots amongst you - the aircraft does not position itself - the flight crew do that.
No. The root causes are the accident aircraft pilots' incompetencies. Each pilot was incompetent in different ways, and their incompetencies very much combined in a perfect fashion to insure the accident would occur.
yep, sneaking around during low visibility... wow.
@@markmaki4460 That was the root cause but it would not have surfaced without the precondition of the failure to get clearance to the pad. Everything grew from that to make the pilots' competencies critical... and could have progressed to any of dozens of hazardous situations that would exceed human control.
Everything is a technicality until something goes wrong.
@@flagmichaelNot getting the clearance to go to the deicing pad. Magnified a marginal copilot and a captain that should have never let him handle the takeoff. The question I have is if the safety margin between deicing and being allowed to fly and not allowed to fly is short. You would think they would have thought they would have moved the deicing pad closer to the runway. That they would not allow a plane to taxi to the deicing pad unless they had a specific takeoff time. As soon as they left the deicing pad they would takeoff.
brainfreeze44131 exactly. On everything you said. Lol
We got to the de-ice pad all the time without telling ATC, that’s been commonplace since the 60s. This is an absolutely catastrophic failure of ATC to recognize the normal happenstance of obviousness.
How tragic and especially as this accident could have been prevented!