Yes! QP matches are too short and too often your are put in the final 10 seconds of a match. Also, they are SO imbalanced lately. Like a game wit almost all lvl 250+ accounts but with some people who clearly bought the game like 2 hours ago and don't have any idea what to do, feeding their brains out playing d.va. I would love a non ranked mode with competitive rules.
I love this idea. It’s similar to unranked in siege where it’s a casual setting but you have comp rules. They could also put a (low) level cap on it. Like 15 or something just to reduce the clash of skill levels
@@DonCarmolo Oh god, I thought it was just me. The matchmaking is just out of wack and feels like it literally just stacks puts random people in, which I actually think it does.
I love how Fitzy at the start is like "I don't have strong opinions on this" and then it got going and you could really get a sense of how passionate he actually is on some of those topics XD. Loved the whole thing though, this one was really really great for a lot of differing opinions. Freedo talking long-term and health of the lower ladder OW2, Fitzy speaking from a place of being a previous pro on another game, wanting to be competitive at the highest level but not looking towards the 6v6, Andy piping in and just really crystalizing ideas, playing devils advocate/poking holes and keeping things going, and Niandra (who was definitely too humble) taking the side of the average players experience with what's currently available in the game.
19:00 I think the main reason why people figured out the tp strats for Horizon is not because of pure adaptability, but more so the simplicity in the strat itself. You pick sym, you tp literally straight to the objective point, and then the entire team can pretty much do whatever they want from there, no further tasks. It's the same on Hanamura, just tp straight to point and brawl it out. The trouble with Paris is, that you CAN'T tp straight to point, so not only do you have to commit to the tp strat, you ALSO need a coordinated follow up after that, because you still need to fight your way to the objective after you tp. That's the issue, when the strat requires more than one simple step, coordination and general knowledge of what to do after the tp, drops drastically - especially when you go further down the ranks. Adding more steps to a strat exponentially increases its difficulty, as well as people's willingness to commit to it. The main issue with Paris, the way I see it, is not necessarily the choke itself. It's the general distances from typically grouped positions to the brawl points. You always have to hard commit to whatever route you take, and the travel distances are long so you also waste more time if something fails. Take Anubis 2nd point as an example, typically you group up just outside the walls of the temple, and from there you can within seconds choose to go left/right/middle/sniper on top bridge - and even when you chose your route you can always deviate from it by going under at the mega, or have a flanker like Genji climb on to point while the team pushes from left, etc. All of these decisions take seconds to pull off, because the distances are short and you are never forced to fully commit to one expected path. On Paris, once you commit to a path, you have to stick with it because any form of deviation would take so long that it would be considered a hard flank - something that is very rarely worth committing to. That means you also become predictable, and predictability and lack of options stalls out the game massively, it effectively means you either have to win the first fight decisively, or you have to try again. There is no in between. This is common with all 2cp maps, but more so with Paris than any other map. Then there is the distance in between spawn points and where the fighting takes place, which is the farthest of any map in the game. Again, take Anubis. 1st point, you go out of your spawn 10 meters and you already have the option to take part in the fight. You are always actively participating. Not so in Paris. Then if you take second point, the fighting typically exists within the Mansion itself, even from the grouping part of the map (around the fountain outside mansion) you still have to traverse the long corridors before you can meaningfully engage in any form of fighting. On Anubis, once you peek past the walls of the Temple, you are already in the action immediately. You have a bit of cover here and there if needed, your path can be non linear, you can basically fight on your way to the point. On Paris, this is not an option. The Defenders have such massive advantages until you actually reach the point itself, and even then the Defenders are highly favored. Until you actually reach the objective point, there is not much you can effectively contribute to in order to gain advantages. On Anubis you can try and get behind enemy lines from right side, you can take high grounds, you can take cover behind map geometry when needed, and the walk itself is only 5-10 meters from the edge of the temple to the point. Every advantage is open both to defenders and attackers, no favorism, and plenty of ways to push advantages before the main fight breaks out. Paris as a whole needs a complete rework, not because we can't have diversity, but more so because half the map only contributes to dragging out games without favoring any specific heroes or playstyles. If I had to rework the map, I would push the Mansion itself slightly forward, and move the objective point further towards the entrance - and then create a second story in the front part of the mansion that certain heroes can fight over. On 1st point I would give a high ground on the right side of the choke that is accessible to both attackers and defenders (but only to flank heroes like Hanzo, Genji, Sombra, Widow, dive heroes, etc), so there is something to fight for for both teams besides just spamming the choke. Having more points to fight for is always great for diversity, and adds complexity to how you approach both attacking and defending the objective point.
That is a damn good observation and I actually think there's a niche that Paris and Horizon fill. This is the sort of Map Design tailored toward a very specific player base (the more casual player base) who need to have things spelt out for them to learn concepts that are rather difficult to grasp when the map design is good. The reason why maps like Kings Row / Havana / Hollywood / Numbani shine is because the nuances of what you said are hidden within the map design so that it's not apparent and you learn concepts intuitively. Sometimes it takes a Hard Contrast like Paris to 'show' newer players the importance of certain concepts that you can bypass by being 'lucky' one too many times that you don't realise what you've learned and the importance of what you've learned.
@@Real_MisterSir dude who goes that in depth in the youtube comment section haha. I agree. To add further to the discussion I like paris second point but first is just awful.
Wish Niandra was able to talk more but this was informative AF and I loved hearing from all the different reps of the diff roles! These Great Debates just keep getting better and better! Thanks to everyone who came and kudos to SVB the GOAT for getting the amazing OW content creators together!
@@PaulStargasm Ya, I agree with you Paul. If you watch Niandra's vids she's very knowledgeable. SVB asked her for input several times and there were several opportunities for her to chime in. You can tell she doesn't have confidence in what she has to say, which is sad considering how knowledgeable she is.
@Luigi 3000 She didn't have any notes, and wasn't prepared. She joined last minute for this debate. If you've ever watched any of her stuff, she actually researches and prepares a lot before speaking.
I think one issue with 2CP that isn't considered, is just the math of randoms. What percentage of the player base know that the only way to win on 2CP is that you MUST attack as a singular group? Let's be generous and say 75%. If SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT of the game population knows you HAVE to group up, then the odds of having ALL SIX TEAMMATES know that you have to group is ONLY 17.8% chance of happening. This means that only THREE percent of games played on 2CP are fun and close where everyone on both teams knows the information. In fact, the only way to get more than NINETY PERCENT of your random teams to actually know what's required is to have 99% of the player base know what's required. This is why 2cp is... Fine... In masters up, and TERRIBLE otherwise. Then it is incredibly frustrating for all the people who DO know to group up.
That sums it up for me. After hitting high plat in support/tank, 2CP actually started to feel a bit more playable because there were more comms/ active attempts to do strats. Obviously it's nowhere near as well coordinated or executed as higher up, but it doesn't feel like teeth extraction trying to get a single tick, let alone a team fight or approaching the point. With silver dps, I watch people rotate feed every entry so we never get a team fight for A, maybe even B of we somehow outtrade them. That or your Hog's afk in choke complaining about gold healing (I hate Hanamura for this reason) after someone on the team gets 1-2 picks, as if you need an entire team wipe to begin pressuring point B let alone A. I either pray 1-2 people know what they're doing and work with them to get kills and the point, or we lose outside of the other team inting harder or plays even slower. The thing that sucks is, there's no good way to "practice" or learn it other than going out of your way outside of the game. It's a straight up cancerous gamemode for arcade or qp since Horizon and Paris show up, and in comp where people are learning to push their limits on their own characters/ hero pools/ playstyles, it's a mode where you HAVE to sync up with several team mates. Additionally, control and payload cater a bit to staggering because the former doesn't need you to win too many fights if you stall point well and the latter lets you focus on whoever's contesting payload and you can push it regardless of your role. They're just extremely different from 2 CP.
I think the 2cp disconnect lies in people's refusal to acknowledge that the game is still winnable. 2cp isn't a test to see if you can attack and defend only two points, it's a test to see who can do it more. At higher ranks people know a steamroll is normal. It's completely normal for 2cp to go 4-5 or even 6-7. But low ranks, it's normal to give up. If you get steam rolled with 5 mins left, everyone gets mad and gives up and blames each other. It's not "wow the enemy was good" it's "wow you guys are bad gg". People don't seem to view each phase as part of a longer match, they view it as the whole match. One attack, one defence and anything else is unlikely. A mode like koth or payload is okay because it feels like each lost fight is recoverable, it only feels like a part of the round. I think blizz are aware of this. Remember their 2cp expiremental? I think they're trying to fix this feeling of "well, there goes all our chances." even if it isn't a rational feeling.
On a side note 2cp is a far different experience in QP vs competitive because QP doesn't flip sides until one person wins. The QP 2cp, compared to competitive 2cp, is like only playing one round of koth.
@@Kanggaxx If a team capped, the round would end and it would go to the next team and flip flop back and forth untill the timer fully ran out. If you capped Anubis A, then the other team got to try and capture A. Ult's didn't carry over and it forces people to group up between rounds.
I think often it isn't winable as they stated though. You had to have a co-ordinated attack popping your ults together to take second point most of the time. Recently I played and popped my ult as Sombra thinking my teammates would follow up. They didn't so I basically wasted my ult, but also threw the game in just that one ult mistake. Other modes aren't so punishing.
@@PaulStargasm I felt like they exaggerated the gamemode's coordination requirements a bit, at least for certain ranks (perhaps because freedo and fitzy did the majority of the talking here, being gm players). in lower ranks every instance of people staggering, people blowing ults, not pushing as 6 etc is matched equally by the enemy team doing stupid stuff too, like overextending, positioning and rotating poorly, not staggering properly, not managing ult eco. it might not always be winnable, but a lot of the time its more possible than people like to think for one person to turn the gamemode around. maybe part of it comes back to player stubbornness and the refusal to give up the mentality that the enemy team is just unfairly better than theirs... its easy to think up an unwinnable scenario where the enemy team is always at an advantage, making fewer mistakes, being more coordinated, but at some point one has to wonder "why is my team always less coordinated?"
The two main problems I see with 2CP are: - Atk and Def rounds. A more dynamic gameplay like control is much more fun to play in a chaotic environment (QP and Ranked) where both teams are battling *to contest the point at the same time*. - Extremely choke dependence and very little alternative routes to use. To "fix" these problems, both would require major changes to maps and the mode itself.
It really bothers me when high rank players talk about low ranks as if they know it super well. When they were low rank, the game was super different. Nowadays, platinum/diamond widows are extremely oppressive and a big problem. But yet there's still the general "oh low rank widow bad lul" but i guarantee most plat players would be fine with not having widow in the game.
1. I am so hype for OW2, the coop stuff is and always will be fun for me. 2. There actually is a solid community of people who do lots of workshop modes. I'm someone who used to go on chill/kill lobbies nd just mess about and talk with people, it's sometimes really popular. 3. I think it would *possibly* be niche, but I'd eat up an OWL Manager type game. think of like Football Manager etc for Overwatch. It'd be kinda cool ,but idk how many would really enjoy it etc Love this video everyone, keep up the good videos SVB!
the old game was most enjoyble ,new not so much -all tweak made it only better for pros and i guess shareholder makes more money with less and shorter games -we loose they win
58:18 This. This is the biggest fundamental problem with the game. The philosophy of Overwatch is that this is a team game. The role queue and moba elements of the game demand coordinated teamwork. 2cp maps require proper executed teamwork in order to succeed - as described in the video. BUT if you do queue for ranked games as a group with friends, if you use the looking for group function, if you do meet cool people in a game and start queuing together and you aren’t high skill (GM+) players the Matchmaking is so heavily stacked against you the games are virtually impossible to win. You want to learn how to play as a group, climb together and execute plays you saw on Overwatch league, good luck with that when every single member of the opposing team is a significantly higher elo than your counterparts. I’m lucky enough to have many friends in Overwatch but I always hesitate to invite people to group up for ranked. Hesitate to group up in a team game. The question is never what positions do we need to fill? Or what strategies can we try and execute or any of the normal questions you might have in other team-based games. In Overwatch, the question becomes; If we add a fourth, fifth or sixth player to our group will we have any chance of winning a game. How much sr will having fun in ranked with five of my friends cost me? This is only anecdotal now, but I once stacked with a group of mid-plat friends of mine every night for one week. We had all reached mid-plat individually solo queuing. In fact, personally I had climbed from silver to near diamond over the proceeding 8 seasons. That changed. We played together each night with the optimism that we would do great together and through amazing team play we would rise through the ranks. We went on a losing streak that lost each of us over 1000 sr. Over 10 seasons later I’ve never been able to recover that damage, though admittedly my desire has waned. We never grouped up, all six of us again - still friends though. Should we have stopped? Of course. But it is absurd that we’d be punished this harshly for playing as a team. There are many hurdles to overcome to fix this. The matchmaker has no way to differentiate second accounts/smurfs in the group, boosted players, casual people messing around with friends vs. a team trying hard together. It has no way to make it fair for solo queuing players if they lessened the harsh matchmaking levelled at groups in ranked. Perhaps a weekly tournament system is the way to go, or a full team ranked separate to solo queue. Whatever the answer, this issue has always stood as the most baffling contradiction within Overwatch as a game.
I play in a plat team (2.9 ave) and we scrim around 3.2-3.4 ave and none of us dare to group 6 and play comp. Even for us, a team that plays together multiple times a week in to other "proper" teams if we go in to comp and try to the same things that win us scrims we get absolutely slaughtered it's actually insane.
Honestly what you say doesn't resonate with me. Ow was my first fps so I was under 1000 elo at one point, then I consistently played with a 6 stack most of the time I qued ranked and climbed to diamond. Maybe your friends wasn't very used to more advanced teamplay. When you have climbed to mid-plat (solo !) you don't really have a lot of experince with shotcalling and playing like a team. But players who find groups know that you're expected to communicate and move like a singularity if you wanna have a winning session.
Yeah I think on a few topics the bias was showing. I don't know Andy's rank but from his comments I assume he's the lowest-ranked player, but I didn't think his point was given enough consideration. Like Fitzy said (I love Fitzy btw) he didn't want stacking back in high ranks because of the chaos element, but then had previously made the point that he loves 2CP it's the player problem because they won't cooperate (which would be solved by stacking).
2CP maps should be reworked into other modes :- Hanamura & Volskaya Industries - Escort Horizon Lunar Colony & Paris - Push (with OW2) Temple of Anubis - Hybrid And also Ayutthaya should either be Escort or Push. The map is so beautiful and it's rarely played.
My solution to 2cp is actually 3cp tug of war. Essentially both sides have the same hard to break 1st point but are incentivized to push forward to capture the distant 2nd point in order to win the game at timeout. If all three points are captured its a win. Map geometry could be oppressive but it wouldnt matter as long as there was symmetry.
I mainly don't like Paris and (sometimes) HLC in QP because I don't want to wait in a 7minute DPS queue for warmup, only to have to wait another 7 minutes after getting steamrolled and losing the game within 5 minutes. I haven't watched the whole video yet, but I see the section about a gamemode between QP and ranked. I think a "warmup" mode would be nice. Where the maps that usually take longer are cycled through, while most 2cp ones aren't, and the rules are like QP. People can leave, and you only have to either hold the whole time, or take the point to win, without having to swap attacker/defender positions. (I'm going to finish the video now)
28:05 This is one of the few places where paladins gets it more right than Overwatch, being forced by the game to group up by everyone leaving spawn at the same time fixes a problem a lot of lower ranked players don't even realise. Look at Doc, his aim is on point, he knows movement and positioning, yet getting staggered will screw your whole team and no matter the rank the carry potential in this game is super low. People assume this game is just COD with a weird hardpoint to cap, but in reality, it's never going to happen no matter how hard you pop off.
They can’t do this for overwatch, you’ll get defended right at spawn, and defenders will just defend at spawn, die, respawn, and then defend on point. That wouldn’t work for overwatch. Overwatch is a team game, and if you can’t climb because you’re not grouped up, it’s not the games fault it’s your fault. I understand in lower ranks nobody groups up, but you have to try to get them to. Be in team chat telling people, spam group up voice lines and fall back voicelines. That even doesn’t work sometimes, but you don’t have to win every game to climb you just have to win the majority of them.
@@GK-bt6fr Some part of the game needs to explain this because I didn't get what the hell the group up voiceline was about until maybe a year into the game. It most definitely is a short coming of the game if it's up to the players to explain how to play it.
@@ashketchup247 The points you need to get to are CLEARLY marked. What more do you want explained? It's honestly just logic, that in a TEAM game, where there's one singular goal that you need to group up and get that goal. If you don't group up, that would be the equivalent of the bomb carrier in CSGO just literally going in a straight line alone to the bomb site. OW isn't different in that specific regard to CSGO. The game tells you where to go, and leaves it up to the people to figure out how to get there. That's literally what all games are about.
@@WolfRites Yeah and for the vast majority of people who have only played COD and Halo, being on a team and actually needing to group up is a new concept. I don't think there are a lot of tactical shooter people in lower ranks struggling to group up.
Regarding PVE: The entire reason I was hyped for Overwatch before it came out was the world and the characters. I was SO DISSAPOINTED when I found out there would be no story mode. I remember in 2016 a CoD game came out with no story, and everyone was pissed, but for some reason it felt like I was the only one pissed about Overwatch missing a PVE story. Can't wait for Overwatch "2" so I can finally have my story mode.
Push sounds alot like tower control from Splatoon, which is a competetive shooter that i dont think enough people look at for game modes and some of the very unique rule sets that they've come up with
@Abhinav Banerjee I genuinely think that hating horizon post rework is just a meme, perpetuated by the tepid takes of youtubers grabbing for outrage views. *cough*BTC*clearsthroat*
Domination Mode in OW does sound pretty damn good. Perhaps with a different rule set as you described but the idea is great. Remember on Launch when everybody had to memorise the location of Health Packs because healers were a rare commodity ? These days in Overwatch, health packs are ignored if not regarded like an RNG element if you accidentally stumble upon one when duelling an enemy near one, then blaming the random health packs for the outcome of the duel.
Perfect debate I loved this. But I was hoping that when y'all talked about the workshop y'all would talk about the amazing Training Modes that they had. KarQ came out with a video spotlighting a workshop mode for every hero. Beyond the fun and hilarious gamemodes the workshop is also a place for a ton of training and grinding to get better. Still a great debate tho!!
Paris second point is a bigger problem than first it has TOO MANY covers and angles for defenders AND there is a giant statue for hammond to stall point with ease ON A 2CP map and other things that makes that map ABSOLUTE WORST map in the game ...
One of the biggest gripes I hear about ranked is that it feels horrible to queue up for ranked and feel like winning is out of your control due to maps or picks. Hero bans will give some player agency which is sorely needed.
Here's all the necessary links, including for podcast listening and all the stuff mentioned in the podcast itself (such as my Discord, Gamivo which you guys should check out(!) & the guests' socials): Podcast Links: Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265 My Discord Server where you can play PUGs with cool people. I often coach them too. Discord server: discord.gg/svb. Join me! Gamivo: Use the following link to get yourself a Discount for your Gamivo purchases. You can get great deals on Gamivo for all sorts of games! gvo.deals/SVB The Guests' Socials: Niandra's RUclips: ruclips.net/user/niandra | Twitch: www.twitch.tv/niandra_ | Twitter: twitter.com/Niandra_ | Discord: discord.com/invite/4WrSUNe Fitzy's Twitch: twitch.tv/fitzyhere | RUclips: ruclips.net/user/fitzyhere | IG: instagram.com/fitzyhere/ | Twitter: twitter.com/Fitzyhere Freedo's RUclips: ruclips.net/user/youroverwatch | Twitter: twitter.com/xFREEEDO | Twitch: www.twitch.tv/youroverwatch Andygmb's Twitter: twitter.com/andygmb1 | Andygmb's RUclips: ruclips.net/user/AndyB If you like this podcast just do the usual - like, subscribe (bell icon please!) & share. Also, if you listen on the podcast sites, then just leave the YT video running at some point too so that the algorithim knows you liked it! Thank you for the support guys! Also, go show Zach Metcalf some love on reddit or Blizzard forums or wherever you can!
The other problem with Paris is that it is rediculesly easy for defenders to defend both the choke and the point. That raised platform overlooks both, so even if you Sombra/Symmetra around to the point they just have to turn around to combat you/your team.
What if respawn time got shorter depending on the amount of people in the spawn room? Would it increase team coordination in rank without wrecking the game?
One point that I don’t see a lot of people make in regards to 2cp is that there is way more downtime than in the other modes. There’s so much standing around and just waiting for team fights to happen (or your team regrouping in the case of the attacking team) it’s just kind of boring. I think Hanamura and obviously the banned Paris and Horizon are the biggest offenders of this mostly because of the sizes of the maps. The distance between the attacking spawns and point B on all three maps is so much that walking back is like half a minute and, unless some attacker is being dumb and engaging on a 1v6, the defending team is kind of just standing there with nothing to do aside from repositioning themselves if they’re not already in a favorable position.
The main problem with maps with chokes such as Paris is not that you have to adapt (sure it might be a problem sometimes) but the fact that you need MUCH MORE coordination with your team to overcome a stupid no brain strategy with bastion. You have that in GM rank but you will not have that in 99% of the games in other ranks in soloq. That's why it's not fun.
@abhinav banerjee It is not the Maps fault but maken it stil really boring/unfun to play because plating A team game while your team wants to just run in on mcree and get hardstaggerd and unintetionel trow your game.
I had an idea about somehow making certain spots/highground on the map only accessible to 1 person on a team at a time. (some kind of smart door?) this would say, allow a soldier or ashe to a good position, but not the mercy pocket. Oh but she can fly anywhere regardless. Hmm
I can see in hero bans, a captain/team banning Bastion because they have a Bastion 1-trick and don't want to be forced to play around the bastion pick. More than likely, the bastion 1-trick would throw at that point
A better guild or group up system would help so many aspects of this game. More cooperative team mates makes a more fun game, no matter what map you're on.
14:30 I kinda agree with Freedo's rant there but on the otherside you could say it's a Game design flaw that most ppl don't understand your game just by playing it But I agree there's a sort of misunderstanding or laziness in the community who sees the game as more of a static thing (meta) than the dynamic game it is supposed to be (exploiting map and comp builds)
The issue with Assault maps is the community's refusal to recognize Sigma as a main tank. Versus bunker, Sigma has the ability to get you through the choke with Kinetic Grasp. Fitzy also has the right idea. That's why I love him. Players are absolutely stubborn. Freedo is spot on as well.
Players are definitely stubborn, but I don't think being forced to run Sombra for EMP to have a chance of winning a map is very fair or fun. It's not even an auto-win like he acted like it was. Especially in lower ranks were people are terrible about following up on plays and comms. But even in higher ranks they can read the EMP coming and take measures to defend against it/live through it. There are other examples I just wanted to pick apart his specific one when he called players stubborn.
2CP is restrictive in terms of heroes. I think that is even more important than the fact that it rigs the game or requires coordination. Overwatch in general really provides you with the ability to play wtv you want, the further we go - the less, but the core is still there - you can switch heroes, even though you can’t switch types. The argument is that “oh we have an echo solution and a sombra solution and a mei solution and a pharah solution and a symm solution” doesn’t go that well because... not everyone likes to play them. Those heroes each force a certain set of playstyles you’re able to go with and that’s just not for everyone. I.e. take a hitscan player, the one that plays like widow, mccree, occasional hanzo, on tank only zarya, on support he’s on ana. Well, what does he have to do on paris? He’s virtually unable to perform. It’s the same thing as with double-shield orisa-sig meta, main tanks hated it in the vast majority of the cases. And the dps hated it too, who wants to play symm and bastion all day long? And some 2cp maps is like “we have this amazing game and this state of meta BUT NOT ON THESE MAPS, HERE YOU PLAY DIFFERENTLY” and it’s the only occasion in the game where your odds are screwed with that much.
@@kdrewtabb kinda.. thing is, some players want to divert the responsibility to others. The example one diverts the responsibility to the second dps, but the second dps isn’t necessarily a projectile player either, so perfectly-fine for scrims players suddenly have to master (not only learn) heroes they have no intentions of playing in any occasions, and they’re just sitting there like “wtf blizz??”
I dont know if this is ironic or not... but I had a commercial, going into this video... for a bank... thats initials are SVB... (edit got the ad again... silicon valley bank) In regards to what fizzy and niandre are saying about numbers... in the heros tab (main menu) you could have a separate section on a side of the screen, depending on what hero you're viewing, that has damage numbers and things. It would keep things neat and orderly, without adding clutter anywhere else
Basically everything they want for workshop mode is Halo Forge mode. Anyone want to see how great it could be just go check out it out. Halo 5 had some great modes.
Overwatch snipers are just so bad for the game. Mercy and a sniper just requires a team effort to kill and the time to kill is too high. Ashe, widow. They ruin the game by making their matchups almost entitely mechanics based. One shots are ok with something like hog hook which requires you to be somewhat exposed. But snipers just make this game dull.
@@LoRNMonsterHunter I disagree with both of you. But at least you know if you get killed by hog hook you were in bad positioning like if you got 2 tap killed by a McCree or flashed around a corner.
The roster needs to be a good bit bigger for the game to accommodate any sort of bans or DotA-esque draft. In DotA, if the character you wanted to play gets banned or picked by the enemy team, there's probably several other characters that have similar functionality and strategic niche. A lot of the overlaps in OW are only a couple characters deep.
As someone who has played domination with team sizes ranging from 2-8, I do not want to see it in OW. There will always be Rambo running the c by himself, capping the point, but losing the fight for the team. It's unavoidable except at the highest levels where players understand map control. I like it if a 3v3 or 4v4 comp was added though.
If people joined voice or didn't stagger/throw ults 2CP could be really fun but after years and years of 2CP being everyone's (other than GM sombra/mei onetricks I guess) least favorite mode, I guess I don't understand a good reason not to completely remove it
Before every comp match, each person from each team votes for a map from the selected game type (2cp, assault, payload, etc) and they select which map to play on. This should've been added years ago.
solution to people not caring in ranked ...rank unlock objectives ..so say your silver DPS and really want to be platinum ...you would have to 1 unlock Gold 2 x number of elimination s in a single game x number of times 3 x number of deaths to kills 4 x number of final blows in a single game ....that way this forces the learning of the role way better
ok but hear me out- what if: 1. rename the current Competitive Mode to Ranked Mode. 2. add a Competitive Mode. 3. here, teams vs each other in the following: A. a series of 3 maps B. these maps are chosen by a vote by teams (lower sr-loser-loser) C. these games have hero bans. for the first game, players choose X heroes to ban. after game 1, they can choose to "add, remove, or change" one hero ban. the new competitive mode would be much less "stingy" with adding or subtracting SR. the games (and likely queues) would be much longer (say 3.5-4 times the wait for an SR change). instead of an average 25 SR per win or loss, maybe this mode would give or take 50-100. the clincher is that the SR you gain will be MUCH more impacted by your MMR. if you display higher skill than players in your current rank, you will gain closer to the maximum amount. if you display similar skill, it would be closer to the minimum. he idea here is to make this mode find your "right" SR faster than the current comp. this would eliminate so many problems people have with things like elo hell, smurfs/alt accounts, etc.
I’ve been playing open queue a lot more than role lock lately.. Role lock helped me learn healers and work on a few more DPS. But for me as an off tank, role lock is a bigger gamble because if the other tank is a D.Va/Zarya too then we’re screwed. In open queue most games are 2-2-2 but it seems I’m more likely to find a main tank.
@Makoa The Ancient i give a lot of credit to anyone that learns a main tank.. Im at 3300 on just D.Va/Zarya but I find the main tanks too boring or frustrating..
Sad how the game punishes you for grouping by placing you against higher Elo players. Ironic how you’re punished for playing a coordinated objective based team game as a coordinated objective based team game.
As a support main, I really do miss being able to switch to Sombra to slow down Doom/Ball. Playing dps is fun, but I really only like Sombra, maybe Mei, McCree or Pharah. I miss flexing lol
You guys seriously need some guy with math and statistics knowledge. When you're discussed Hero bans, I feel so good about Fitzy's idea, that first like 10-15 secs of lobby each player decide to ban 1 hero and then the RNG automatically bans, for example, 3 of it. That means statistically for Fitzy if he got targeted banned every game (sombra I mean) he still get 25% chance to get banned, what means 1 game sombra get banned and 3 games - not. And the general idea of it, that for Fitzy (and I hope every other player) it feels not so horrible to not play your favorite hero for one game of fourth, but it still feels so great when you got 25% chance to not face a character you won't to play against (widowmaker or else). I guess developers should make a note about this idea. Does it make sense?
Personally I don’t mind 2 cp as a mode (although horizon is a horrible map) , I think the best game mode is hybrid and that’s where the best maps are. I actually think koth is a bad game mode, the objective is so irrelevant because it just caps itself u only have to be on it to cap it then u can go off and do you’re own thing, it’s just fun for dps players because all they have to do is play death match , there’s no coordination needed. Maybe it’s just because I’m a support player and my view is biased but playing anything other than Moira or Lúcio in koth feels bad you are so vulnerable and have no where to position but with your team and hope they protect you from the enemy. Whereas in other game modes and maps you can position yourself in different ways and fights are more structured. Although I still don’t hate koth but it’s just overrated.
As far as the numbers we could have on the game. I would love that but have it disabled like most things for new players. Then we can turn it on if you or I start to get use to the game.
Freedo I know no one gonna read this but saying meta doesn’t matter at low ranks or qp etc is pretty dense since the things that make a broken char too strong (like launch day sigma) absolutely affect players at low ranks. The same things that make him too strong and therefore meta (no shield deploy cooldown, his suck everything up ability (kinetic grasp), his busted ass ult, his shield on top of orisa when she was meta and op) are all things that keep me from enjoying the game as a hitscan/aim character even if I just pop open qp. Stop saying meta “doesn’t exist” at low levels just cuz they don’t optimize the busted shit. The things that make them meta are the same things an average player has to deal with no matter the rank. Still
Weekend Tournaments, OWL style, with Hero Bans (loser pick or whatever) would grow the game so much. Would bring actual competitive people back (like me). Oh, Overwatch is a serious game now?
On role queue I think it's a mistake to assume that because open queue is not taken seriously that role lock is then a good thing. People will now not take open queue seriously because the serious players are playing role queue. If there was no role queue people would take open queue more seriously. For example if you're queuing as tank or healer, why would you play open queue when you can go into role queue and be guaranteed tanks and healers? So the tanks and healers you now get in open queue aren't gonna be the best. On Andy's point about the relief of 2-2-2 that you know you are getting 2 tanks, 2 healers, I don't think that is reflected in lower ranks. Often it's obvious DPS players (being by far the largest player base) are just queuing as tank for the shorter queue then playing the tank like a DPS (or even just choosing DPS heavy off-tanks). So now you still aren't effectively getting a tank because even though they're playing the hero, they're still playing as a DPS..
You guys talk about 2CP and how it's the "hardest" mode , ie requires people to not stagger and work as a team etc etc. However you miss imho the main reason why 2CP is bad, and that's because it's the game mode most likely to end in a draw or a long extended game ending in coinflips. The fact that there isn't a "number of metres pushed" but a 1/2/3 ticks per point. It's this aspect of 2CP that makes it perhaps the most frustrating. You can get a little unlucky and go to Round 3 and 4, or even 5 and 6 and then the game turns into a coinflip. It's the fact that 2CP is the hardest game mode to actually close out in rounds 1 and 2 that makes it more stressful and often less fun for players.
Nobody learns at 2cp because it's just random if you get through at the lower ranks. It's just smashing each other at the choke until something dies and then rush in.
Honestly, all the gamemodes in OW seems to lack focus. I do believe we need a gamemode between comp and QP, or rather, Blizzard should maybe change the QP mode to mimic comp, but without the SR, it should still have a matchmaking system like comp does, it's just hidden. And then Blizzard needs to enforce those, because honestly, I don't want to play comp anymore, but the game doesn't have a game mode where you can play as the game is intended, but without the SR tacked on. Quickplay is essentially just FFA but with locked roles. If you want people to do something specific, they'll just say "it's qp" as if that's an excuse for trolling. Having a game mode that still plays like the game is intended but without the rank, means the people who want to play the game as intended without ranking, has a place to go. That would, hopefully, free up the competitive queue for people that really want to try hard.
@@hammerth1421 Not really in the sense you would expect, no. How do I know this? Simply by looking at the ranks of the lobbies. When you get lobbies in qucikplay that are mixed between silver and masters, and some low levels that are clearly new to the game (versus a full team of 300+ levels), it's pretty clear there's no proper matchmaking happening. My guess is QP still tries to average out an elo, but it's most likely geared heavily towards speed (finding matches) instead of a somewhat accurate elo rating, which then leads to teams that have a huge variance in actual skill level. A variance of 500SR is fine, but a variance of several ranks is not, which frequently happens. My point is also that quickplay should, in essence, just mimic competitive, there's no reason to have seperate rules. The arcade is there for that.
Doesn't Hanamura has one chokepoint before A as well? Yeah, there's a high window of sort on the left which only some heroes can go through, but overall for me this point was always much worse than Paris
@@ZeroOne130 If you're going by back in the day map popularity then CTF is most popular due to the abundance of 2Fort servers. But in the comp scene it was always 5CP maps like Badlands. Highlander did use payload, which was popular in Europe though. wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_play#Maps
Why not have 2cp defenders for each defenders first death you get an instant respawn just the once, either that or have 1 spawn that's a little closer. This gives the defenders at least a chance to not get rolled on the first break of the defence but each player only gets 1 chance, after that the deaths are normal again.
The problem with 2cp is that I would want to group up but there is only 1 other player in voice and he doesnt speak english. How am i gonna play with my team if i cant comunnicate with them.
You just have to accept that most of the time (especially if you are solo queuing) in a team of 6, not everyone will listen to your callouts/strats, whether they can't communicate in English or simply just don't want to follow. There's not much you can do at that point (unless someone else speaks their language so they can explain the plan) so you just have to make the right calls and get as much of your team on board, and just play your best.
@flappy and that is the problem with 2cp, just doing your best isnt going to make you cap that second point. Like they said in the video, you need teamwork to win on 2cp.
I disagree with fitzy about 2cp. He likes 2cp when it works at top 500 where he knows most of the people up there. Minus the few low masters players he has to carry occasionally. For anyone below diamond (80% of us) we literally will almost never see the same person more than once. It's a total crap shoot. So sure 2cp works great even down here in the metal ranks on occasion, but instead of it being let's say 40% or so of the time for fitzy. It's like 1/1000 2cp games that feels even remotely good. The rest is just uncoordinated garbage that isn't fun.
I disagree with Fitzy on the potential impact of PVE in the game that's more robust and fun. I love the world of Overwatch but I don't want to play PVP non stop. There are very little release valves in OW, so what I end up doing is keep up with the game and watch OWL but don't play it. If it had PVE the game would get a lot more of my attention. When I'm just looking to chill out PVE is more attractive than Quick Play. And finally, perhaps this mode would mitigate the one trick things people want to do (not all of it, but some of it) where people can play the hero they like - but maybe they don't care that much for PvP they just want to play the hero. That could reduce DPS queue times.
![[DRAGON BALL LEGENDS REVEALS ＆ STUFF] LEGENDS FESTIVAL 2024 Special Edition Part 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mV5bGIswTtQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The game needs a " Normal mode " as in QP rules but you play both Offence and Defence. Loving the content guys!
I feel it could help with dps queue time, I suck at it, but if I want to make the queue worthwhile, I need to play comp...
Yes! QP matches are too short and too often your are put in the final 10 seconds of a match. Also, they are SO imbalanced lately. Like a game wit almost all lvl 250+ accounts but with some people who clearly bought the game like 2 hours ago and don't have any idea what to do, feeding their brains out playing d.va.
I would love a non ranked mode with competitive rules.
I love this idea. It’s similar to unranked in siege where it’s a casual setting but you have comp rules. They could also put a (low) level cap on it. Like 15 or something just to reduce the clash of skill levels
Call it "Casual"
@@DonCarmolo Oh god, I thought it was just me. The matchmaking is just out of wack and feels like it literally just stacks puts random people in, which I actually think it does.
I love how Fitzy at the start is like "I don't have strong opinions on this" and then it got going and you could really get a sense of how passionate he actually is on some of those topics XD. Loved the whole thing though, this one was really really great for a lot of differing opinions. Freedo talking long-term and health of the lower ladder OW2, Fitzy speaking from a place of being a previous pro on another game, wanting to be competitive at the highest level but not looking towards the 6v6, Andy piping in and just really crystalizing ideas, playing devils advocate/poking holes and keeping things going, and Niandra (who was definitely too humble) taking the side of the average players experience with what's currently available in the game.
Does eveyone love the kill the spinning ball minigame at the end of every map?
I hack the rat, no spinning allowed ;D
when i'm the one spinning on bronze....yes
i love being the rein that charges him into a wall haha
@@clementellorrryrrt😅
@@RenciaFennaasyeni rakı r
19:00 I think the main reason why people figured out the tp strats for Horizon is not because of pure adaptability, but more so the simplicity in the strat itself. You pick sym, you tp literally straight to the objective point, and then the entire team can pretty much do whatever they want from there, no further tasks. It's the same on Hanamura, just tp straight to point and brawl it out.
The trouble with Paris is, that you CAN'T tp straight to point, so not only do you have to commit to the tp strat, you ALSO need a coordinated follow up after that, because you still need to fight your way to the objective after you tp. That's the issue, when the strat requires more than one simple step, coordination and general knowledge of what to do after the tp, drops drastically - especially when you go further down the ranks. Adding more steps to a strat exponentially increases its difficulty, as well as people's willingness to commit to it.
The main issue with Paris, the way I see it, is not necessarily the choke itself. It's the general distances from typically grouped positions to the brawl points. You always have to hard commit to whatever route you take, and the travel distances are long so you also waste more time if something fails. Take Anubis 2nd point as an example, typically you group up just outside the walls of the temple, and from there you can within seconds choose to go left/right/middle/sniper on top bridge - and even when you chose your route you can always deviate from it by going under at the mega, or have a flanker like Genji climb on to point while the team pushes from left, etc. All of these decisions take seconds to pull off, because the distances are short and you are never forced to fully commit to one expected path. On Paris, once you commit to a path, you have to stick with it because any form of deviation would take so long that it would be considered a hard flank - something that is very rarely worth committing to. That means you also become predictable, and predictability and lack of options stalls out the game massively, it effectively means you either have to win the first fight decisively, or you have to try again. There is no in between. This is common with all 2cp maps, but more so with Paris than any other map.
Then there is the distance in between spawn points and where the fighting takes place, which is the farthest of any map in the game. Again, take Anubis. 1st point, you go out of your spawn 10 meters and you already have the option to take part in the fight. You are always actively participating. Not so in Paris. Then if you take second point, the fighting typically exists within the Mansion itself, even from the grouping part of the map (around the fountain outside mansion) you still have to traverse the long corridors before you can meaningfully engage in any form of fighting. On Anubis, once you peek past the walls of the Temple, you are already in the action immediately. You have a bit of cover here and there if needed, your path can be non linear, you can basically fight on your way to the point. On Paris, this is not an option. The Defenders have such massive advantages until you actually reach the point itself, and even then the Defenders are highly favored. Until you actually reach the objective point, there is not much you can effectively contribute to in order to gain advantages. On Anubis you can try and get behind enemy lines from right side, you can take high grounds, you can take cover behind map geometry when needed, and the walk itself is only 5-10 meters from the edge of the temple to the point. Every advantage is open both to defenders and attackers, no favorism, and plenty of ways to push advantages before the main fight breaks out.
Paris as a whole needs a complete rework, not because we can't have diversity, but more so because half the map only contributes to dragging out games without favoring any specific heroes or playstyles.
If I had to rework the map, I would push the Mansion itself slightly forward, and move the objective point further towards the entrance - and then create a second story in the front part of the mansion that certain heroes can fight over. On 1st point I would give a high ground on the right side of the choke that is accessible to both attackers and defenders (but only to flank heroes like Hanzo, Genji, Sombra, Widow, dive heroes, etc), so there is something to fight for for both teams besides just spamming the choke. Having more points to fight for is always great for diversity, and adds complexity to how you approach both attacking and defending the objective point.
That is a damn good observation and I actually think there's a niche that Paris and Horizon fill.
This is the sort of Map Design tailored toward a very specific player base (the more casual player base) who need to have things spelt out for them to learn concepts that are rather difficult to grasp when the map design is good. The reason why maps like Kings Row / Havana / Hollywood / Numbani shine is because the nuances of what you said are hidden within the map design so that it's not apparent and you learn concepts intuitively.
Sometimes it takes a Hard Contrast like Paris to 'show' newer players the importance of certain concepts that you can bypass by being 'lucky' one too many times that you don't realise what you've learned and the importance of what you've learned.
@impr0visati0n your contribution is appreciated. Have a nice day kind stranger
I was like. oh this is an interesting take. Continue to press the show more
WALL OF TEXT
@@Zyborgg oof :c guess u didn't see that plot twist coming
@@Real_MisterSir dude who goes that in depth in the youtube comment section haha. I agree. To add further to the discussion I like paris second point but first is just awful.
Wish Niandra was able to talk more but this was informative AF and I loved hearing from all the different reps of the diff roles! These Great Debates just keep getting better and better! Thanks to everyone who came and kudos to SVB the GOAT for getting the amazing OW content creators together!
SVB gave her plenty of opportunities. She simply didn't have much to add.
@@kdrewtabb Yeah I guess, I'd forgotten she said she came in like at the last minute and didn't have too many notes made as well.
It's just a confidence thing.
@@PaulStargasm Ya, I agree with you Paul. If you watch Niandra's vids she's very knowledgeable. SVB asked her for input several times and there were several opportunities for her to chime in. You can tell she doesn't have confidence in what she has to say, which is sad considering how knowledgeable she is.
psst, niandra goes by they/them not she/her
I'm loving this so far, but I wish we heard more from Niandra.
@Abhinav Banerjee Yeah it's kinda her personality though.
@Luigi 3000 She didn't have any notes, and wasn't prepared. She joined last minute for this debate. If you've ever watched any of her stuff, she actually researches and prepares a lot before speaking.
Any video with Fitzy, Niandra, AND SVB is an insta-like
Quality torb cosplay there
I think one issue with 2CP that isn't considered, is just the math of randoms.
What percentage of the player base know that the only way to win on 2CP is that you MUST attack as a singular group? Let's be generous and say 75%.
If SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT of the game population knows you HAVE to group up, then the odds of having ALL SIX TEAMMATES know that you have to group is ONLY 17.8% chance of happening.
This means that only THREE percent of games played on 2CP are fun and close where everyone on both teams knows the information.
In fact, the only way to get more than NINETY PERCENT of your random teams to actually know what's required is to have 99% of the player base know what's required.
This is why 2cp is... Fine... In masters up, and TERRIBLE otherwise.
Then it is incredibly frustrating for all the people who DO know to group up.
That sums it up for me. After hitting high plat in support/tank, 2CP actually started to feel a bit more playable because there were more comms/ active attempts to do strats. Obviously it's nowhere near as well coordinated or executed as higher up, but it doesn't feel like teeth extraction trying to get a single tick, let alone a team fight or approaching the point.
With silver dps, I watch people rotate feed every entry so we never get a team fight for A, maybe even B of we somehow outtrade them. That or your Hog's afk in choke complaining about gold healing (I hate Hanamura for this reason) after someone on the team gets 1-2 picks, as if you need an entire team wipe to begin pressuring point B let alone A. I either pray 1-2 people know what they're doing and work with them to get kills and the point, or we lose outside of the other team inting harder or plays even slower.
The thing that sucks is, there's no good way to "practice" or learn it other than going out of your way outside of the game. It's a straight up cancerous gamemode for arcade or qp since Horizon and Paris show up, and in comp where people are learning to push their limits on their own characters/ hero pools/ playstyles, it's a mode where you HAVE to sync up with several team mates. Additionally, control and payload cater a bit to staggering because the former doesn't need you to win too many fights if you stall point well and the latter lets you focus on whoever's contesting payload and you can push it regardless of your role. They're just extremely different from 2 CP.
Yes this has always been the issue with 2CP. Honestly though I dont think itll ever work so they should just get rid of it imo.
Damn, Jayne and svb coming in clutch with the awesome overwatch content lately
I think the 2cp disconnect lies in people's refusal to acknowledge that the game is still winnable. 2cp isn't a test to see if you can attack and defend only two points, it's a test to see who can do it more. At higher ranks people know a steamroll is normal. It's completely normal for 2cp to go 4-5 or even 6-7. But low ranks, it's normal to give up. If you get steam rolled with 5 mins left, everyone gets mad and gives up and blames each other. It's not "wow the enemy was good" it's "wow you guys are bad gg".
People don't seem to view each phase as part of a longer match, they view it as the whole match. One attack, one defence and anything else is unlikely. A mode like koth or payload is okay because it feels like each lost fight is recoverable, it only feels like a part of the round.
I think blizz are aware of this. Remember their 2cp expiremental? I think they're trying to fix this feeling of "well, there goes all our chances." even if it isn't a rational feeling.
On a side note 2cp is a far different experience in QP vs competitive because QP doesn't flip sides until one person wins. The QP 2cp, compared to competitive 2cp, is like only playing one round of koth.
I quit the game for a bit while the 2cp experimental was out. What did they change?
@@Kanggaxx If a team capped, the round would end and it would go to the next team and flip flop back and forth untill the timer fully ran out.
If you capped Anubis A, then the other team got to try and capture A. Ult's didn't carry over and it forces people to group up between rounds.
I think often it isn't winable as they stated though. You had to have a co-ordinated attack popping your ults together to take second point most of the time. Recently I played and popped my ult as Sombra thinking my teammates would follow up. They didn't so I basically wasted my ult, but also threw the game in just that one ult mistake. Other modes aren't so punishing.
@@PaulStargasm I felt like they exaggerated the gamemode's coordination requirements a bit, at least for certain ranks (perhaps because freedo and fitzy did the majority of the talking here, being gm players).
in lower ranks every instance of people staggering, people blowing ults, not pushing as 6 etc is matched equally by the enemy team doing stupid stuff too, like overextending, positioning and rotating poorly, not staggering properly, not managing ult eco. it might not always be winnable, but a lot of the time its more possible than people like to think for one person to turn the gamemode around.
maybe part of it comes back to player stubbornness and the refusal to give up the mentality that the enemy team is just unfairly better than theirs... its easy to think up an unwinnable scenario where the enemy team is always at an advantage, making fewer mistakes, being more coordinated, but at some point one has to wonder "why is my team always less coordinated?"
Here's something interesting:
I saw teams in bronze,
The two main problems I see with 2CP are:
- Atk and Def rounds. A more dynamic gameplay like control is much more fun to play in a chaotic environment (QP and Ranked) where both teams are battling *to contest the point at the same time*.
- Extremely choke dependence and very little alternative routes to use.
To "fix" these problems, both would require major changes to maps and the mode itself.
It really bothers me when high rank players talk about low ranks as if they know it super well. When they were low rank, the game was super different. Nowadays, platinum/diamond widows are extremely oppressive and a big problem. But yet there's still the general "oh low rank widow bad lul" but i guarantee most plat players would be fine with not having widow in the game.
1. I am so hype for OW2, the coop stuff is and always will be fun for me.
2. There actually is a solid community of people who do lots of workshop modes. I'm someone who used to go on chill/kill lobbies nd just mess about and talk with people, it's sometimes really popular.
3. I think it would *possibly* be niche, but I'd eat up an OWL Manager type game. think of like Football Manager etc for Overwatch. It'd be kinda cool ,but idk how many would really enjoy it etc
Love this video everyone, keep up the good videos SVB!
Great stuff from everyone, especially Fitzy and Andy!
Draws are frequently the games I enjoy most. I'd rather get the win, but it's a fun back and forth almost always
the old game was most enjoyble ,new not so much -all tweak made it only better for pros and i guess shareholder makes more money with less and shorter games -we loose they win
1:33:18 re: domination map type hero metas, bastion could sit near a choke mid-map and kinda just control the lanes of travel between the points.
58:18 This. This is the biggest fundamental problem with the game. The philosophy of Overwatch is that this is a team game. The role queue and moba elements of the game demand coordinated teamwork. 2cp maps require proper executed teamwork in order to succeed - as described in the video. BUT if you do queue for ranked games as a group with friends, if you use the looking for group function, if you do meet cool people in a game and start queuing together and you aren’t high skill (GM+) players the Matchmaking is so heavily stacked against you the games are virtually impossible to win. You want to learn how to play as a group, climb together and execute plays you saw on Overwatch league, good luck with that when every single member of the opposing team is a significantly higher elo than your counterparts. I’m lucky enough to have many friends in Overwatch but I always hesitate to invite people to group up for ranked. Hesitate to group up in a team game. The question is never what positions do we need to fill? Or what strategies can we try and execute or any of the normal questions you might have in other team-based games. In Overwatch, the question becomes; If we add a fourth, fifth or sixth player to our group will we have any chance of winning a game. How much sr will having fun in ranked with five of my friends cost me?
This is only anecdotal now, but I once stacked with a group of mid-plat friends of mine every night for one week. We had all reached mid-plat individually solo queuing. In fact, personally I had climbed from silver to near diamond over the proceeding 8 seasons. That changed. We played together each night with the optimism that we would do great together and through amazing team play we would rise through the ranks. We went on a losing streak that lost each of us over 1000 sr. Over 10 seasons later I’ve never been able to recover that damage, though admittedly my desire has waned. We never grouped up, all six of us again - still friends though. Should we have stopped? Of course. But it is absurd that we’d be punished this harshly for playing as a team.
There are many hurdles to overcome to fix this. The matchmaker has no way to differentiate second accounts/smurfs in the group, boosted players, casual people messing around with friends vs. a team trying hard together. It has no way to make it fair for solo queuing players if they lessened the harsh matchmaking levelled at groups in ranked. Perhaps a weekly tournament system is the way to go, or a full team ranked separate to solo queue. Whatever the answer, this issue has always stood as the most baffling contradiction within Overwatch as a game.
I play in a plat team (2.9 ave) and we scrim around 3.2-3.4 ave and none of us dare to group 6 and play comp. Even for us, a team that plays together multiple times a week in to other "proper" teams if we go in to comp and try to the same things that win us scrims we get absolutely slaughtered it's actually insane.
Honestly what you say doesn't resonate with me. Ow was my first fps so I was under 1000 elo at one point, then I consistently played with a 6 stack most of the time I qued ranked and climbed to diamond. Maybe your friends wasn't very used to more advanced teamplay. When you have climbed to mid-plat (solo !) you don't really have a lot of experince with shotcalling and playing like a team. But players who find groups know that you're expected to communicate and move like a singularity if you wanna have a winning session.
I love this, but think it would be helpful if it had a more casual player on to put their two cents in every now and then.
Yeah I think on a few topics the bias was showing. I don't know Andy's rank but from his comments I assume he's the lowest-ranked player, but I didn't think his point was given enough consideration. Like Fitzy said (I love Fitzy btw) he didn't want stacking back in high ranks because of the chaos element, but then had previously made the point that he loves 2CP it's the player problem because they won't cooperate (which would be solved by stacking).
@@PaulStargasm look it up, andy’s pretty high up there.
You know they just had one on for the rank debate right??????
@@kirchnner30 Oh no this was the first one I watched so I will have to watch that one next.
2CP maps should be reworked into other modes :-
Hanamura & Volskaya Industries - Escort
Horizon Lunar Colony & Paris - Push (with OW2)
Temple of Anubis - Hybrid
And also Ayutthaya should either be Escort or Push. The map is so beautiful and it's rarely played.
My solution to 2cp is actually 3cp tug of war. Essentially both sides have the same hard to break 1st point but are incentivized to push forward to capture the distant 2nd point in order to win the game at timeout. If all three points are captured its a win. Map geometry could be oppressive but it wouldnt matter as long as there was symmetry.
So you're essentially proposing a capture point push mode? Sounds kinda fun, I'd love to playtest that.
I was so interested in this I watched it on a weekend when I usually only watch overwatch content in the background at work 😅
I mainly don't like Paris and (sometimes) HLC in QP because I don't want to wait in a 7minute DPS queue for warmup, only to have to wait another 7 minutes after getting steamrolled and losing the game within 5 minutes.
I haven't watched the whole video yet, but I see the section about a gamemode between QP and ranked. I think a "warmup" mode would be nice. Where the maps that usually take longer are cycled through, while most 2cp ones aren't, and the rules are like QP. People can leave, and you only have to either hold the whole time, or take the point to win, without having to swap attacker/defender positions.
(I'm going to finish the video now)
28:05 This is one of the few places where paladins gets it more right than Overwatch, being forced by the game to group up by everyone leaving spawn at the same time fixes a problem a lot of lower ranked players don't even realise.
Look at Doc, his aim is on point, he knows movement and positioning, yet getting staggered will screw your whole team and no matter the rank the carry potential in this game is super low.
People assume this game is just COD with a weird hardpoint to cap, but in reality, it's never going to happen no matter how hard you pop off.
They can’t do this for overwatch, you’ll get defended right at spawn, and defenders will just defend at spawn, die, respawn, and then defend on point. That wouldn’t work for overwatch. Overwatch is a team game, and if you can’t climb because you’re not grouped up, it’s not the games fault it’s your fault. I understand in lower ranks nobody groups up, but you have to try to get them to. Be in team chat telling people, spam group up voice lines and fall back voicelines. That even doesn’t work sometimes, but you don’t have to win every game to climb you just have to win the majority of them.
@@GK-bt6fr Some part of the game needs to explain this because I didn't get what the hell the group up voiceline was about until maybe a year into the game.
It most definitely is a short coming of the game if it's up to the players to explain how to play it.
@@ashketchup247 The points you need to get to are CLEARLY marked. What more do you want explained?
It's honestly just logic, that in a TEAM game, where there's one singular goal that you need to group up and get that goal. If you don't group up, that would be the equivalent of the bomb carrier in CSGO just literally going in a straight line alone to the bomb site. OW isn't different in that specific regard to CSGO. The game tells you where to go, and leaves it up to the people to figure out how to get there. That's literally what all games are about.
@@WolfRites Yeah and for the vast majority of people who have only played COD and Halo, being on a team and actually needing to group up is a new concept.
I don't think there are a lot of tactical shooter people in lower ranks struggling to group up.
Fitzy: "You don't have the exact same game everytime"
What about Rialto
Regarding PVE:
The entire reason I was hyped for Overwatch before it came out was the world and the characters. I was SO DISSAPOINTED when I found out there would be no story mode. I remember in 2016 a CoD game came out with no story, and everyone was pissed, but for some reason it felt like I was the only one pissed about Overwatch missing a PVE story. Can't wait for Overwatch "2" so I can finally have my story mode.
Me watching the torbs in the back of Andy's cam 👁️👄👁️
Push sounds alot like tower control from Splatoon, which is a competetive shooter that i dont think enough people look at for game modes and some of the very unique rule sets that they've come up with
HOW did Andy do that O_O (the torb opening his mouth and stuff when he talks ????)
there are app like face swaps that u can turn into everything, maybe he is using something like that? Only a suggestion
@@RenciaFennaas that's probably it ! Thank you :)
5:28 this is precisely why I'm okay with horizon, and sometimes even paris, and I sometimes lament that they're out of rotation.
@Abhinav Banerjee I genuinely think that hating horizon post rework is just a meme, perpetuated by the tepid takes of youtubers grabbing for outrage views. *cough*BTC*clearsthroat*
Half way through and just wanted to say thanks, great content right here. A meeting of some of the greatest ow minds.
Domination Mode in OW does sound pretty damn good. Perhaps with a different rule set as you described but the idea is great.
Remember on Launch when everybody had to memorise the location of Health Packs because healers were a rare commodity ? These days in Overwatch, health packs are ignored if not regarded like an RNG element if you accidentally stumble upon one when duelling an enemy near one, then blaming the random health packs for the outcome of the duel.
Perfect debate I loved this. But I was hoping that when y'all talked about the workshop y'all would talk about the amazing Training Modes that they had. KarQ came out with a video spotlighting a workshop mode for every hero. Beyond the fun and hilarious gamemodes the workshop is also a place for a ton of training and grinding to get better. Still a great debate tho!!
Paris second point is a bigger problem than first it has TOO MANY covers and angles for defenders AND there is a giant statue for hammond to stall point with ease ON A 2CP map and other things that makes that map ABSOLUTE WORST map in the game ...
One of the biggest gripes I hear about ranked is that it feels horrible to queue up for ranked and feel like winning is out of your control due to maps or picks. Hero bans will give some player agency which is sorely needed.
Can we get SVB a spot in E-Sports. So much knowledge and insight!
was very surprised by the splatoon mention, but for those who've ever played splatoon - what if overwatch had a variant of rainmaker 🤔
Push is similar.
the fact that Freedo called out Splatoon made me so happy!!!! :D
Damn, the disconnect between them and the reality of most players in regards to 2CP is insane.
How can fitzy say that players should be more flexible and creative with heroes like sombra and sym but also say youre not gonna change the players
I think its time for pre match map vote, so when you load in just b4 selecting your character it should have all 12 player vote between 3 maps
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The other problem with Paris is that it is rediculesly easy for defenders to defend both the choke and the point. That raised platform overlooks both, so even if you Sombra/Symmetra around to the point they just have to turn around to combat you/your team.
What if respawn time got shorter depending on the amount of people in the spawn room? Would it increase team coordination in rank without wrecking the game?
One point that I don’t see a lot of people make in regards to 2cp is that there is way more downtime than in the other modes. There’s so much standing around and just waiting for team fights to happen (or your team regrouping in the case of the attacking team) it’s just kind of boring. I think Hanamura and obviously the banned Paris and Horizon are the biggest offenders of this mostly because of the sizes of the maps. The distance between the attacking spawns and point B on all three maps is so much that walking back is like half a minute and, unless some attacker is being dumb and engaging on a 1v6, the defending team is kind of just standing there with nothing to do aside from repositioning themselves if they’re not already in a favorable position.
I dont have time to watch but seriously 10/10 Thumbnail
The main problem with maps with chokes such as Paris is not that you have to adapt (sure it might be a problem sometimes) but the fact that you need MUCH MORE coordination with your team to overcome a stupid no brain strategy with bastion. You have that in GM rank but you will not have that in 99% of the games in other ranks in soloq. That's why it's not fun.
@abhinav banerjee It is not the Maps fault but maken it stil really boring/unfun to play because plating A team game while your team wants to just run in on mcree and get hardstaggerd and unintetionel trow your game.
I had an idea about somehow making certain spots/highground on the map only accessible to 1 person on a team at a time. (some kind of smart door?) this would say, allow a soldier or ashe to a good position, but not the mercy pocket. Oh but she can fly anywhere regardless. Hmm
I can see in hero bans, a captain/team banning Bastion because they have a Bastion 1-trick and don't want to be forced to play around the bastion pick. More than likely, the bastion 1-trick would throw at that point
A better guild or group up system would help so many aspects of this game. More cooperative team mates makes a more fun game, no matter what map you're on.
14:30 I kinda agree with Freedo's rant there but on the otherside you could say it's a Game design flaw that most ppl don't understand your game just by playing it
But I agree there's a sort of misunderstanding or laziness in the community who sees the game as more of a static thing (meta) than the dynamic game it is supposed to be (exploiting map and comp builds)
I don't think HCL is actually hated as much as it seems. I definitely rate Anubis and Paris as worse (and admit to leaving Paris matches).
The issue with Assault maps is the community's refusal to recognize Sigma as a main tank. Versus bunker, Sigma has the ability to get you through the choke with Kinetic Grasp.
Fitzy also has the right idea. That's why I love him. Players are absolutely stubborn.
Freedo is spot on as well.
We dont recognize sigma as a maintank because he is an oftank🤦🏻♂️
yeah no the issue with 2cp was here even before sigma was out, believe it or not. try again
Players are definitely stubborn, but I don't think being forced to run Sombra for EMP to have a chance of winning a map is very fair or fun. It's not even an auto-win like he acted like it was. Especially in lower ranks were people are terrible about following up on plays and comms. But even in higher ranks they can read the EMP coming and take measures to defend against it/live through it.
There are other examples I just wanted to pick apart his specific one when he called players stubborn.
I've said all along the biggest problem with Overwatch is the players.
@@PaulStargasm always has been
2CP is restrictive in terms of heroes. I think that is even more important than the fact that it rigs the game or requires coordination. Overwatch in general really provides you with the ability to play wtv you want, the further we go - the less, but the core is still there - you can switch heroes, even though you can’t switch types. The argument is that “oh we have an echo solution and a sombra solution and a mei solution and a pharah solution and a symm solution” doesn’t go that well because... not everyone likes to play them. Those heroes each force a certain set of playstyles you’re able to go with and that’s just not for everyone. I.e. take a hitscan player, the one that plays like widow, mccree, occasional hanzo, on tank only zarya, on support he’s on ana. Well, what does he have to do on paris? He’s virtually unable to perform. It’s the same thing as with double-shield orisa-sig meta, main tanks hated it in the vast majority of the cases. And the dps hated it too, who wants to play symm and bastion all day long? And some 2cp maps is like “we have this amazing game and this state of meta BUT NOT ON THESE MAPS, HERE YOU PLAY DIFFERENTLY” and it’s the only occasion in the game where your odds are screwed with that much.
The long way of saying players are stubborn
and that's where Seagull's advice comes in. "Git gud."
@@kdrewtabb kinda.. thing is, some players want to divert the responsibility to others. The example one diverts the responsibility to the second dps, but the second dps isn’t necessarily a projectile player either, so perfectly-fine for scrims players suddenly have to master (not only learn) heroes they have no intentions of playing in any occasions, and they’re just sitting there like “wtf blizz??”
I dont know if this is ironic or not... but I had a commercial, going into this video... for a bank... thats initials are SVB... (edit got the ad again... silicon valley bank)
In regards to what fizzy and niandre are saying about numbers... in the heros tab (main menu) you could have a separate section on a side of the screen, depending on what hero you're viewing, that has damage numbers and things. It would keep things neat and orderly, without adding clutter anywhere else
Day z was a mod in arma 2 at first and the whole genre blew up. Surprised no one mentioned that one
Basically everything they want for workshop mode is Halo Forge mode. Anyone want to see how great it could be just go check out it out. Halo 5 had some great modes.
Overwatch snipers are just so bad for the game. Mercy and a sniper just requires a team effort to kill and the time to kill is too high. Ashe, widow. They ruin the game by making their matchups almost entitely mechanics based. One shots are ok with something like hog hook which requires you to be somewhat exposed. But snipers just make this game dull.
Hog hook is not balanced just FYI.
@@LoRNMonsterHunter Mhm, why is hog hook broken
Because it accomplishes the same outcome as widowmaker with 10% of the effort
@@LoRNMonsterHunter I disagree with both of you. But at least you know if you get killed by hog hook you were in bad positioning like if you got 2 tap killed by a McCree or flashed around a corner.
As a Brig main, it gets tired of hearing all the hate all the time.
Yeah, it only took like 20 nerfs and a redesign but Brig is finally balanced.
The roster needs to be a good bit bigger for the game to accommodate any sort of bans or DotA-esque draft. In DotA, if the character you wanted to play gets banned or picked by the enemy team, there's probably several other characters that have similar functionality and strategic niche. A lot of the overlaps in OW are only a couple characters deep.
As someone who has played domination with team sizes ranging from 2-8, I do not want to see it in OW. There will always be Rambo running the c by himself, capping the point, but losing the fight for the team. It's unavoidable except at the highest levels where players understand map control. I like it if a 3v3 or 4v4 comp was added though.
If people joined voice or didn't stagger/throw ults 2CP could be really fun but after years and years of 2CP being everyone's (other than GM sombra/mei onetricks I guess) least favorite mode, I guess I don't understand a good reason not to completely remove it
Before every comp match, each person from each team votes for a map from the selected game type (2cp, assault, payload, etc) and they select which map to play on.
This should've been added years ago.
Would be the same maps evertime
solution to people not caring in ranked ...rank unlock objectives ..so say your silver DPS and really want to be platinum ...you would have to 1 unlock Gold 2 x number of elimination s in a single game x number of times 3 x number of deaths to kills 4 x number of final blows in a single game ....that way this forces the learning of the role way better
15 views, 5 likes, 5 comments, 360P POGGERS
you might ask, why not watch it live? well the answer is double (and higher) speed.
Ngl I feel like Open Queue is the perfect answer to wanting a better quick play lol
24:00 - err... if it was impossible to switch heroes when the point is contested, would it make 2cP harder or easier?
ok but hear me out- what if:
1. rename the current Competitive Mode to Ranked Mode.
2. add a Competitive Mode.
3. here, teams vs each other in the following:
A. a series of 3 maps
B. these maps are chosen by a vote by teams (lower sr-loser-loser)
C. these games have hero bans. for the first game, players choose X heroes to ban. after game 1, they can choose to "add, remove, or change" one hero ban.
the new competitive mode would be much less "stingy" with adding or subtracting SR. the games (and likely queues) would be much longer (say 3.5-4 times the wait for an SR change). instead of an average 25 SR per win or loss, maybe this mode would give or take 50-100. the clincher is that the SR you gain will be MUCH more impacted by your MMR. if you display higher skill than players in your current rank, you will gain closer to the maximum amount. if you display similar skill, it would be closer to the minimum. he idea here is to make this mode find your "right" SR faster than the current comp. this would eliminate so many problems people have with things like elo hell, smurfs/alt accounts, etc.
I’ve been playing open queue a lot more than role lock lately.. Role lock helped me learn healers and work on a few more DPS. But for me as an off tank, role lock is a bigger gamble because if the other tank is a D.Va/Zarya too then we’re screwed. In open queue most games are 2-2-2 but it seems I’m more likely to find a main tank.
@Makoa The Ancient i give a lot of credit to anyone that learns a main tank.. Im at 3300 on just D.Va/Zarya but I find the main tanks too boring or frustrating..
Sad how the game punishes you for grouping by placing you against higher Elo players. Ironic how you’re punished for playing a coordinated objective based team game as a coordinated objective based team game.
As a support main, I really do miss being able to switch to Sombra to slow down Doom/Ball. Playing dps is fun, but I really only like Sombra, maybe Mei, McCree or Pharah. I miss flexing lol
You guys seriously need some guy with math and statistics knowledge. When you're discussed Hero bans, I feel so good about Fitzy's idea, that first like 10-15 secs of lobby each player decide to ban 1 hero and then the RNG automatically bans, for example, 3 of it. That means statistically for Fitzy if he got targeted banned every game (sombra I mean) he still get 25% chance to get banned, what means 1 game sombra get banned and 3 games - not. And the general idea of it, that for Fitzy (and I hope every other player) it feels not so horrible to not play your favorite hero for one game of fourth, but it still feels so great when you got 25% chance to not face a character you won't to play against (widowmaker or else). I guess developers should make a note about this idea. Does it make sense?
Yay Andy!!!! 🇨🇮🇨🇮🇨🇮🇨🇮🇨🇮
Personally I don’t mind 2 cp as a mode (although horizon is a horrible map) , I think the best game mode is hybrid and that’s where the best maps are. I actually think koth is a bad game mode, the objective is so irrelevant because it just caps itself u only have to be on it to cap it then u can go off and do you’re own thing, it’s just fun for dps players because all they have to do is play death match , there’s no coordination needed. Maybe it’s just because I’m a support player and my view is biased but playing anything other than Moira or Lúcio in koth feels bad you are so vulnerable and have no where to position but with your team and hope they protect you from the enemy. Whereas in other game modes and maps you can position yourself in different ways and fights are more structured. Although I still don’t hate koth but it’s just overrated.
As far as the numbers we could have on the game. I would love that but have it disabled like most things for new players. Then we can turn it on if you or I start to get use to the game.
I've had a game in horizon that lasted 1:15 before, can't get much quicker than I don't think
Freedo I know no one gonna read this but saying meta doesn’t matter at low ranks or qp etc is pretty dense since the things that make a broken char too strong (like launch day sigma) absolutely affect players at low ranks. The same things that make him too strong and therefore meta (no shield deploy cooldown, his suck everything up ability (kinetic grasp), his busted ass ult, his shield on top of orisa when she was meta and op) are all things that keep me from enjoying the game as a hitscan/aim character even if I just pop open qp.
Stop saying meta “doesn’t exist” at low levels just cuz they don’t optimize the busted shit. The things that make them meta are the same things an average player has to deal with no matter the rank.
Still
2 cp isnt shit its my fucking teammates
Weekend Tournaments, OWL style, with Hero Bans (loser pick or whatever) would grow the game so much. Would bring actual competitive people back (like me). Oh, Overwatch is a serious game now?
On role queue I think it's a mistake to assume that because open queue is not taken seriously that role lock is then a good thing. People will now not take open queue seriously because the serious players are playing role queue. If there was no role queue people would take open queue more seriously. For example if you're queuing as tank or healer, why would you play open queue when you can go into role queue and be guaranteed tanks and healers? So the tanks and healers you now get in open queue aren't gonna be the best.
On Andy's point about the relief of 2-2-2 that you know you are getting 2 tanks, 2 healers, I don't think that is reflected in lower ranks. Often it's obvious DPS players (being by far the largest player base) are just queuing as tank for the shorter queue then playing the tank like a DPS (or even just choosing DPS heavy off-tanks). So now you still aren't effectively getting a tank because even though they're playing the hero, they're still playing as a DPS..
You guys talk about 2CP and how it's the "hardest" mode , ie requires people to not stagger and work as a team etc etc. However you miss imho the main reason why 2CP is bad, and that's because it's the game mode most likely to end in a draw or a long extended game ending in coinflips. The fact that there isn't a "number of metres pushed" but a 1/2/3 ticks per point.
It's this aspect of 2CP that makes it perhaps the most frustrating. You can get a little unlucky and go to Round 3 and 4, or even 5 and 6 and then the game turns into a coinflip.
It's the fact that 2CP is the hardest game mode to actually close out in rounds 1 and 2 that makes it more stressful and often less fun for players.
Nobody learns at 2cp because it's just random if you get through at the lower ranks. It's just smashing each other at the choke until something dies and then rush in.
Honestly, all the gamemodes in OW seems to lack focus. I do believe we need a gamemode between comp and QP, or rather, Blizzard should maybe change the QP mode to mimic comp, but without the SR, it should still have a matchmaking system like comp does, it's just hidden. And then Blizzard needs to enforce those, because honestly, I don't want to play comp anymore, but the game doesn't have a game mode where you can play as the game is intended, but without the SR tacked on. Quickplay is essentially just FFA but with locked roles. If you want people to do something specific, they'll just say "it's qp" as if that's an excuse for trolling.
Having a game mode that still plays like the game is intended but without the rank, means the people who want to play the game as intended without ranking, has a place to go. That would, hopefully, free up the competitive queue for people that really want to try hard.
"it should still have a matchmaking system like comp does, it's just hidden"
Well, that's how quick play works.
@@hammerth1421 Not really in the sense you would expect, no. How do I know this? Simply by looking at the ranks of the lobbies. When you get lobbies in qucikplay that are mixed between silver and masters, and some low levels that are clearly new to the game (versus a full team of 300+ levels), it's pretty clear there's no proper matchmaking happening.
My guess is QP still tries to average out an elo, but it's most likely geared heavily towards speed (finding matches) instead of a somewhat accurate elo rating, which then leads to teams that have a huge variance in actual skill level. A variance of 500SR is fine, but a variance of several ranks is not, which frequently happens.
My point is also that quickplay should, in essence, just mimic competitive, there's no reason to have seperate rules. The arcade is there for that.
Basically how most people will see the new push mode is 1:09:27
Just have a player choice ban system where the top banned heros of one day are unbannable the next day
Doesn't Hanamura has one chokepoint before A as well? Yeah, there's a high window of sort on the left which only some heroes can go through, but overall for me this point was always much worse than Paris
Surprised you didn't mention KOTH; the worst game mode. Or 5CP; the main TF2 game mode.
I thought payload is TF2 main game mode.
@@ZeroOne130 If you're going by back in the day map popularity then CTF is most popular due to the abundance of 2Fort servers. But in the comp scene it was always 5CP maps like Badlands.
Highlander did use payload, which was popular in Europe though.
wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Competitive_play#Maps
33:10 maybe we need 2CP to be... 3CP?
Why not have 2cp defenders for each defenders first death you get an instant respawn just the once, either that or have 1 spawn that's a little closer. This gives the defenders at least a chance to not get rolled on the first break of the defence but each player only gets 1 chance, after that the deaths are normal again.
"A month"
That genji buff lasted barely more than a week
Niandra's voice is so cool and I'm British to begin with...
Widow is not only a problem in Top 500 there are some people with very good aim in plat, diamond and masters and Widowmaker smurfs everywhere
I dont understand the hate for horizon. There are no small chokes and you cab run multiple comps
The problem with 2cp is that I would want to group up but there is only 1 other player in voice and he doesnt speak english. How am i gonna play with my team if i cant comunnicate with them.
You just have to accept that most of the time (especially if you are solo queuing) in a team of 6, not everyone will listen to your callouts/strats, whether they can't communicate in English or simply just don't want to follow. There's not much you can do at that point (unless someone else speaks their language so they can explain the plan) so you just have to make the right calls and get as much of your team on board, and just play your best.
@flappy and that is the problem with 2cp, just doing your best isnt going to make you cap that second point. Like they said in the video, you need teamwork to win on 2cp.
FitzY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They took maps out of comp because people hate them but they leave them in qp
I disagree with fitzy about 2cp. He likes 2cp when it works at top 500 where he knows most of the people up there. Minus the few low masters players he has to carry occasionally. For anyone below diamond (80% of us) we literally will almost never see the same person more than once. It's a total crap shoot. So sure 2cp works great even down here in the metal ranks on occasion, but instead of it being let's say 40% or so of the time for fitzy. It's like 1/1000 2cp games that feels even remotely good. The rest is just uncoordinated garbage that isn't fun.
Not to mention that he literally specializes in a hero that’s built to counter it
@@KaiDub24 then play heroes that win the game mode. How hard is that?
@@kdrewtabb Oh so you're the Brig in Goats. Sounds like fun 🤡
At the end of the day it's the same for both sides though.
@Abhinav Banerjee Brig in role lock isn't the same as brig in goats. You have no experience playing her in goats so why talk?
I disagree with Fitzy on the potential impact of PVE in the game that's more robust and fun. I love the world of Overwatch but I don't want to play PVP non stop. There are very little release valves in OW, so what I end up doing is keep up with the game and watch OWL but don't play it.
If it had PVE the game would get a lot more of my attention. When I'm just looking to chill out PVE is more attractive than Quick Play.
And finally, perhaps this mode would mitigate the one trick things people want to do (not all of it, but some of it) where people can play the hero they like - but maybe they don't care that much for PvP they just want to play the hero. That could reduce DPS queue times.
@40:45 Freedo says fly and andy flaps his wings