This podcast was tons of fun! I kinda came in unprepared so I hope I did good and maybe changed the opinions of some of your or taught you something new. Thanks for having me and I hope we can make more stuff together in the future!
Can you talk about problematic hero design in Overwatch? By that I mean like how most people feel like Orisa and Brig and etc feel boring when you are forced to play.
@@ysmg1061 Since Orisa has a pick rate of, what, 3% below GM, I would suggest the problem instead is that they CHOOSE to play boring tanks. I could suggest they play "fun" tanks instead, but they slavishly play OWL comps in ranked, which is a THEM problem and not an Orisa problem.
Overwatch when you're level 4700 you know how it is in the higher level of play because players in the lower ranks don't know the level of the higher ranks of levels. Now GM players play at 4k not knowing the importance of higher level play, also contenders.
lol, deranked to silver dps and it feels the same. If a Winston/Rein pushes in, I just lock a dps that works with them and play, usually we win/do well. Otherwise the team afks in choke and what do you do as a lone dps other than 1v6 and pray nobody on the enemy team deals with you?
@@purplewine7362 Rein - Mei, Reaper, McCree, Sym if you're running a full rush comp. The last 3 run in with behind him and pressure the enemy tanks/shields; Mei can wall off enemies poking your Rein or supporting whoever your Rein is pushing. Winston - various tbh, but dive dps (Tracer, Genji, Doom, Echo) can chase/pressure with him; ranged dps can poke people for Winston to jump on.
A QUICK INSERT ABOUT THE HOG CHANGES: yes they nerfed his fire rate, ammo count, and damage, but they buffed the hook so it pulls you 0.5 meters closer, making the one-shot easier on a lot of characters.
I play D.Va/Zarya and i can dabble with Ball.. But i never get to play D.Va and Zarya gets old after 2 games so i just play DPS or even Healer now.. But i used to almost only play tank.. Basically i just want to play D.Va lol, and ill play zarya if i have to but i dont want to play her exclusively.. To me those are the only fun tanks
(300H Orisa player) All the tanks have one thing Orisa does not, an alternative damage source/ a you die now button. And her only damage source isn't impactful or reliable enough to give the player that satisfying feeling of impact from landing it. Due to Orisa only having m1 as her only means to impact a heros health pool makes it so the player doesn't have any options or procedure to be able to finish/deal with someone unlike Rien who has pin/fire strike/shatter Hog: M2/Whole hog, Weinstein: Jump pack impact damage/primal Zarya: M2/Grav D.VA: Rockets/boop/Nuke Sigma: Rock(the impact comes more from the stun)/Flux Ball: Ground slam/ body slam/ mines (Most of these tanks M1s are also impactful enough that it feels good to land them) All Orisa can do is M1 someone to death which due to the nature of her M1 isnt reliable enough to land or strong enough to out damage healing to be able to matter enough for it to feel impactful and fun for players to want to put the effort in landing it, so she has no dps play potential and agian, unlike the other tanks her innate kit limits any other form of play making potential, this means she has no wow momments that other tanks have, and for that she's doomed to be boring to play becouse you really don't get a return investment on that rush feeling on Orisa when you make a skilful play, unlike with the other tanks when you invest the same amount of energy in making a play. (yes, you can halt people off the map and into things but that's map and who you are halting/halting with dependent)
The part about wishing players would speak more is weird at lower levels because a lot of the time someone will speak up with a plan that is bat shit insane and wrong like "we need a rein to go into this bastion." and then at least one other player will go "yeah, let's do that" and will get mad if you try to have any dissenting ideas or say why that's bad. To some extent it's ok because even if it's not the best plan as long as you do the same thing as a team you usually are doing more than the other team, but sometimes you all go brawl on first point attack junkertown and get rolled or do a solo change to pop off and carry and have someone potentially get tilted and throw.
I think that they should stop buffing at all. If Blizzard wants balance, they should nerf heros. Right now, dps does too much damage therefore supports are healing bots that heal too much
I think i am in the most dangerous role atm. Im in a 3200 tank. I had back to back 2600 lobby and a 3800 lobby. I lost the plat and won the masters. WTF
I feel like 6 stack GM queues added more of a gradient to the game which was great. Yeah if you run up against NYXL or Shock then you're going to lose, they're just the best and there's an unbelievable challenge at the top. If you lose you could still be the second best stack in queue at that moment, and that's ok! Why not put streamer teams up against pro teams and see what happens? Maybe 2 pro teams will come up against each other and you get an unexpected OWL scrim. Who cares? I, the peasant Plat player, certainly won't be offended.
I made it to about 55:50 minutes when Bogur goes '...4200 peak and 4500 peak is like night and day.' Really? Ugh. The elitism started showing from the Ivory tower. I had to tap out.
The number of times I have seen my teammates on my Xbox account which is in Gold request or Reinhardt or a sigma for a shield and then do absolutely nothing to stand behind the shield and constantly walk in front of it is beyond mind blowing for some of you if I gave you actual numbers you would be like this is crazy this is absolutely nonsense why are you picking Ryan and the reason is I pick Ryan because if I don't I get screamed at all game for being anything else but hog
I remember playing 10hrs a day on tank and then going to sleep excited to play tank again the next day. These days it's hard to play 5 games in a row as tank, feel like if u don't play double shield or have a brig/bap u become a punching bag. It's not fun, I want to play literally any of the other tanks, but I can't lol
Its just not fun to play tank anymore honestly. I used to primarily play tanks like rein, winston and zarya, but now I just dont even want to bother. With all the cc, one shots, and power creep on all dps, why bother? You have shield for half a second before its completely gone, then get rushed down. You make space and then nothing gets done with it. Even double shield feels stale. I love overwatch but they really did make playing tank a chore, which is why probably people play more solo potential characters like d.va, ball, or hog.
I don't know why some people are hating on Freedo or saying he's out of place. He's a high enough level player and has a deeper understanding of the game than a lot of the community, and is creating content FOR US. So I for one, would like to thank SVB for putting this together. Also, everybody wish SVB a happy belated birthday! It was his birthday yesterday! Let's go duuuuuuudes!
@Abhinav Banerjee Freedo and his youtube channel, "Your Overwatch", gets criticised on both blizzard forums as well as reddit. Which is why I brought it up.
Because his opinions are regularly garbage filled with inaccuracies. His "coaching" videos consist of you should just switch off this character and I'm not going to provide you any relevant information on this hero.
People in lower ranks play rein mostly because they feel like they have to Team will complain for not having a shield or will just suck without it in lower ranks And rein is the easiest shield hero to play there because he has the biggest shield I personally like playing sigma or hog and can do absolutely fine without a shield if needed, I love killing people even when olaying tanks Peak on tanks 3940, current 3400
Yea I find most people feel comfortable having a big shield but the low rank playstyle really doesn't need one I've been finding lost of success on ball on control because both the game mode and the players themselves feeds into the more chaotic nature of the game where everyone can carry themselves on individual plays unlike the team oriented shield comps that people 'want' to play Ball acting as a cooldown robber makes so much more space than any of the tanks throwing out shield wish they could make in low ranks. My team always gets so much value just from me going in eating all the stuns and sometimes nades living througb it and rolling away with some members of the enemy team chasing me on some occassions It gives the dps players so much room to pick of players who aren't on the same page with their team
@Sandra Swan personally I love rein hanamura, cause its either rein/zar vs rein/zar or double shield. I personally hate double shield because orisa doesn't give me the sweet serotonin and I get to play more aggro on rein alongside a zarya which is uber fun
@@reynauldwhistles2338 Exactly, but it's usually a bad idea to aggro a Brig 1v1. She is basically the final boss, common sense says: don't do it. Just slowly nope away and don't poke the dragon. And yes, she gets all the hate, she is Satan 2.0... Brig is the ultimate Mei successor.
4.2k and 4.4k SR are different cause at that level SR rises slow af. Resulting in 200 SR basically turning into 500 SR worth of skill lower down. GM is more then one rank, above masters ranked has at least 4-5 more levels of wildly growing skill.
wishing guides foused less on the mistakes the player in vod review made and more on the mistakes the enemy made that they can punish. if its all about mistakes...point them out maybe?
@@micmccond7 this is a bad mentality. By focusing on punishing enemy mistakes you are doing 3 things... first not addressing and sometimes reinforcing your mistakes, second relying on enemies to make mistakes to win yourself and lastly relying on an unpredictable strategy that falls off drastically when you climb instead of actually learning the game
@@micmccond7 The point is that you learn when to spot mistakes by improving yourself. This is something that just comes naturally over time when you work on your own gameplay
I really enjoy SVB being devil's advocate here and being a good host. The vocal minority was a great moment, really redirected the conversation and gave a perspective check
Small buff to speed boost, and buff Winston armor. We don’t need more damage or shields but initiation / movement problems are mostly what’s holding some of these tanks back.
@Abhinav Banerjee But from that higher angle, you also can hit more headshots, because their head hitbox is in more in front of their body. Keep at it man, I know from personal experience how frustrating Silver can be, but you can do it!
@Abhinav Banerjee That's more because you have less space to move around. Imagine a globe, right? The circle at the bottom and top is smaller than the circle at the middle. That's why it feels disorienting
Silver?! *shudder* There's a LOT of great workshop codes for practice on headshots, high grounds shooting pharamercys, etc. 10-30 min warmup/practice every time and I guarantee you'll be gold in no time!
Was duo queuing tank in Platinum at the height of the Hog/Zarya meta. I remember a game where the entire team turned on my friend and I because we weren’t using a shield. Even though we were dominating the game as Hog and Zarya, we were winning, the dps were getting picks and the supports weren’t being harassed. The entire team was screaming at us to go Rein. They just had no concept of how to play without a shield. Without a shield the team has no shape and people can’t position at all. But if I go Rein the game is awful for me, I cannot carry and the team will probably lose. Overwatch has issues that Blizzard seem to refuse to address season on season.
Lmao some people dont realize ur supposed to be peeking the entire time and need a rein to literally babysit them its very frustrating. Its not even an OW problem, I think lower ranks just dont understand space. you dont need a Reinhardt to take space and open lanes is all u need
Freedo has some good opinions, but he thinks his opinion is way more relevant than it is, he's not a horrible player but he's not amazing, so when he speaks on metas and stuff, he has the knowledge but not all the experience if that makes sense
Interesting but also a bit frustrating...like the prompt goes to "how do we address the knowledge gap" and then nobody even talked about it, it just went back into complaining about the problems of upper GM ladder. And then talking about how people don't play tank because the fun characters are weak? Didn't we literally just see stats showing that the "fun" tanks are still played by every other rank than GM, but people still don't play the role?
It’s about the number of players playing main tank/fun tanks, Not just the proportion. In high gold I get in a game within 12 seconds. Recently there’s been a lot of hog and ball which I assume are dps trying to play faster. As for the knowledge gap it is what it is. There’s Plenty of content creators trying to educate. The blizzard client literally showcases videos trying to educate on overwatch. I think it’s just casuals and people not wanting/caring to learn the game
For Orisa in terms of risk/reward, maybe an interesting mechanic would be that her gun fed off of her shield as some sort of shared resource meter? Like your shots would be stronger if you sacrificed shield health? Also, this is neither here nor there, but I always thought they should give her a kick move (maybe it could replace her fortify and have all-directional knockback to protect her bunker). But why would you make a horse character with four hulking legs that couldn't kick people in the teeth?!
Fortify is the only ability she has focused on her, might be better to replace Halt with something else. Orisa feels boring because 2 of her 3 abilities are focused on the team (everyone can use barriers and everyone can follow up on halt)
The fact that there is NO dps in the game that is scared of a Rein or Winston coming towards them bc they can all delete them easily which is stupid like how are main tanks the least scary heroes in the tank role?!? Whereas they are scared of a hog sig zarya or ball. Personally I think it’s ok to buff reins shield bc he can’t do anything other than shield when he uses it whereas orisa and sig can use all their other abilities so reins shield should be much stronger and he needs the shatter and steadfast buffs. Winston could probably use a small armour buff so he doesn’t explode. But personally I still think dps need overall nerfs, and bap needs a revert on his ult and brigs repair pack should be removed or changed
Baptiste's ult is essentially useless down in the lower ranks and in some senses so is widow's but I think it needs shrinking a bit it's a bit too powerul
@@jplayzow That’s kind of true but that’s also down to the fact that people see everyone grouping up in high ranks and using immorality and amp matrix effectively in gm but in lower ranks on bap u should just use it selfishly to get a pick or two or maybe say to one of your dps to come stand with u and use it together.
@@Chaz-Support the thing is in low ranks we have that same I am jesus christmas I will never join chat or group or whatever kinda nonsense and most of us can't aim for the life of us which is part of why we're stuck down here I agree the ultimate isn't the problem so much as us but I do feel like it was a bit small for us to use effectively considering the lack of awareness and if their ult is basically useless the hero will go basically unused compared to someone like Mercy whose entire kit is "what are aiming we no do" you're right in the we need to be grouped but that is the problem: getting people in a spot and not dying
DPS are easily the worst role in the game again. If you don't play a ranged hitscan, you are borderline useless. DPS don't need nerfs, tanks need to be changed to feel like tanks again. Not fat DPS like Sig,ball or hog who don't follow rules and make games feel like ffa
“Brigs repair pack should be removed or changed”? She’s a healer dude with the least healing potential out of all the supports. The repair pack should be buffed if anything.
Every hero in this game has a huge community that loves playing them. Stop dunking on Orisa and Sig. Also, off tanks in this game are just bruisers. Also, Brig and Bap aren't even played outside of GM and Masters
Firstly, boring is subjective as I find dive boring even though pros love it. But also, it makes sense that the higher you go up the ladder, the more narrow and less diverse comps are. But the game should be enjoyable to the most amount of people over the 1%. I love Orisa btw.
@@tymiller176 Coolio, I'd ask what you consider viable, but that'd be nitpicky to ask. But to make sure I understand, you like metas where you can pick a character to play and have fun. Cool to know, I really dislike being THAT asshole, so I'll be the ask question asshole to less of the actual scumbag type.
When Flats went off about Echo that resonated with me. She made tank so much worse to play. If she'd been any other role, or if we'd had a character in one of the other roles instead of her, it would have helped at least a little.
Happy birthday Flats! (and SVB too :P) Also... 31:13 "Just do something" and what that something would be? Still, fantastic debate! A very complex topic, and all guests had great points.
I like that this is an ongoing series. I thought that we would only get one of these, and I was sad because I thought "oh the meta will change and half of this conversation will be pointless in a couple months." But I totally intend to keep watching these as they continue to come out.
I remember a time around late 2018 early 2019 when people were complaining about D.va being meta for so long, someone said that they felt D.va was the gatekeeper of a lot of shitty metas Look where we are now
D.Va is the gatekeeper of Overwatch that has been trashed. Her 15 m matrix at the old recharge rate was a perfect balance. Her denial of Ana and hitscans kept the game at a healthy balance without her being overpowering. Nerf dva and buff everthing = all the crap metas. Except for goats, that was brig's fault
@@MoistChungus saving people is more useful than high charge a lot of the time. She is a tank not dps. Matchup dependent but a lot of time saving people IS what gets you that high charge. At least vs Roadhog or burst damage characters
@@MoistChungus the timing is super important aka the when to use it. check out canas1ians youtube channel. the vod reviews are old but in terms of "how to play with rein" are still good
As a support player ive never been much of a lucio player. Never really liked his kit and if i am being honest at low ranks lucios come in two flavors bad reddit lucio or heals only lucio.
I love his ult. I like the facts his kit is actually musical and i like his design. For me wall riding has never been my jam which is something good lucios need to master so thats been mostly the thing keeping me from playing lucio also big burst healing is my support character playstyle i prefer from what i can tell from other games i play with the same game designs. When I first Started i was a zen main still am kinda. This is before bap, brig, and Moira. Currently i play bap, brig, and zen when i can. I hate mercy and moira and Don't trust my Ana play.
I was finally able to catch this live! I will never not listen to these I learn new things every time a new Debate comes out. Much love SVB and the guests!
Imho, if we actually want to get overwatch to a better competitive place, we need, in this order: 1)Hero ban system 2) Map Choice system 3) Catch up Tanks and supports with more heroes
With how Blizzard has been operating though, we’ll probably get hero ban at the end of OW2 lifespan and everyone will agree we should have done it from the beginning. Map choice will come super late or be very limited. And OW2 will come out with 5 new heroes: 1 support, 1 tank, and 3 Damage 😂
Your third point is key for me. It is honestly a joke that they only released 3 tanks and 4 supports post release but then had time to release 4 DPS characters AND rework 2 damage characters, including reworking symmetra several times. You want more people to play tank? Release more of them. Make them more fun and engaging to play. Stop having DPS and supports that literally can entirely negate a hero with the press of a button. Tank is a role that feels so much more beholden to their team, yet is so integral to in game success. It baffles me how what is agreed to be the most important role is so chronically neglected
Not having an offtank main hurt the podcast. People don't like to play main tank that much. I gave up Rein and now just play offtank when I noticed it's just DPS daycare half of the time. They want rein, but never protect rein against a Mei/Reaper. Screw that. The games are messier, but I'm having a lot more of a fun time.
yeah but isn't that kind of an argument for the fact that main tanking needs to be kind of buffed so you have the carry potential even if your team is more reluctant to help
You risk main tanks being raid bosses then. Playing rein with a good Ana/Moira pocket, a lucio, a zary/dva (playing with hog sucks) and a team is great and a lot of fun. The fundamental issue being that ranked is full of randoms playing their own game. It's not a team game and never will be. It's a pickup game, at best. I used to play online competitive games in a clan. It wasn't overwatch, but the difference between organized play and pubs (think matchmaking) was night and day. Overwatch needs a team ladder for all ranks like what was suggested. And main tank is team dependent. It always has been. What good is an offensive line if you don't have a running back to run through the hole? Thing is, you can have an all star RB without a OL in OW and that creates the mindset that you don't need your team in ranked. Main tanks can still climb on ladder too, not just playing Orisa as well. But the OW devs have made it known that they don't believe in the MT and OT concept. While I disagree, ranked isn't organized play and I won't play it as such anymore for randoms.
Samito is too loud. I personally find playing Orisa very fun. Her weapon is satisfying to use, halt is a great ability, its so so so so satisfying to block CC with fortify, she has a great personality, supercharger is one of the best ultimates in the game, I could go on.
My most played character is Orisa, an I love messing with reins, and I shoot shields cuz its annoying when my dps don't have the fire power to do so, I get she's not the most "fun" and flashy but I don't care to be the star player, I just want to win, I want to take point and move/stop karts, I don't care to hit crazy 360 shots on 1 person cuz thats not the objective, it's fun if it works an you look good but if your team gets wrecked the whole time it seems useless
I don't see how they're confused about knowledge gap. There's basically no game knowledge in the actual game. Based on the discourse, it's as if the hardcore playerbase knows more about the game than the developers based on the quality of information we get.
Lots of potentially insightful changes that I personally agree would be great for the game but these issues are definitely most prevalent at the highest ranks. Some of the points regarding how "fresh/stale" a meta can be a bit lost when its coming from the tippy top of the playerbase grinding this game for hours on end. Again, I truly do understand that this is still an issue and I do wish Blizzard would be more proactive and aggressive with their patches (even at the cost of "perfect balance") but staleness is something you're gunna have to deal with when it's your livelihood revolves around the game. Thanks for the podcast as usual SVB! Looking forward to the next chapter.
The issue that most of these youtubers and streamers miss when complaining about Orisa and the tank role is two fold. #1 Orisa mains exist and they enjoy playing her, for the very reasons you hate playing her. They enjoy enabling their teammates, it's a more passive way to play the game. Some heroes enable their teammates more than others. Roadhog, for example, can solo carry, he can play a bit more independently and get picks. That's why you see A-type personalities play him more often. If you don't like playing that teamwork oriented, passive style of play then you're gonna hate playing heroes like that. It's important to the health of the game to offer a variety of different types of playstyles to cater to many different types of players. #2 There isn't enough tank (and support) hero variety choice and overlap. Buffs, Nerfs, Reworks, etc, aren't going to solve the problem of not having enough choice in those roles. That's partially why people feel like they are locked into a certain hero like Orisa, like Brigitte, etc. The game becomes much easier to balance when it becomes more complex (contrary to what your gut reaction might be). When you have ability overlap, more counters, more interactions, you have more choice. E.G. If you need a tank hero with an ability that can eat ultimates and damage. Sigma's Kinetic Grasp & D.Va's Defense Matrix can do that. Both are different, but fundamentally the same. So you have a choice, Sigma or D.Va. If you need a tank hero with a shield you have Orisa, Winston, Sigma, and Reinhardt. If you need a tank hero with mobility, you have Winston, Wrecking Ball, D.Va. You get the idea. DPS has way more choice. Way more counter play. My hope is that Blizzard solves this with many more tanks and supports to pick from. No amount of nerfs or buffs is going to solve the lack of choice.
I agree here. When Orisa came out, I liked that slow build play style. But I got more into dive after that. I don’t want to assume about others here, but from my experience there is a gendered response here. I feel like female players sometimes like that passive team enabling play style. It can be frustrating, but I understand. Sometimes I like playing that style as well. I think there is some unchecked sexism there. I also think samitos video is kind of mean. I think it’s okay to have Orisa be that play style. Maybe it shouldn’t be the meta though. I personally think there is a lot of privilege at the top of the Overwatch ladder. They often forget Overwatchis what it is because of “casuals” I kind of hate that term.
@@LonestarBF How? I’m claiming there is unchecked sexism in the Overwatch community. So how would I be the sexist one. My comment came from the fact that I heard female identifying players on a podcast specifically claim that they feel ‘pressured to play characters more active than Mercy’ and they felt it was likely due to the fact that some toxic ideas in the male gaming culture cause men to naturally prefer active heroes over heroes that support in a passive manner. And there would be plenty of evidence to this clam considering the stats the devs put out suggest that Mercy and Dva have far more females in their cohort than some other characters. So my question would be what evidence would you have to suggest I’m bringing gender into this, when it very clearly is something that’s already been complained about from the launch of the game. Hell, even most of the higher echelon shits on characters that rely heavily on team oriented play. Something I don’t think you would see as much if we were more open to a variety of play styles from a variety of different players.
They said multiple times that orisa was fun on her own. Only once sigma came in was her kit too strong once stacked. And on top of her being a must pick she was inherently uninteresting for the vast majority of players past a beginning level. They also said multiple times that orisa is fun in certain niches/situations and that that’s ok. Oh and yeah the gender thing being brought up here is hella forced, irrelevant, and a projection of the commenter far more than anything from this purely insightful podcast. Good day.
sigma is a lot of fun tbh....its just orisa sig that made the problem. if sig was interchangeable with rein and winston that would be sick. like a 3rd main tank.
I agree that content creators or maybe Overwatch Dev's themselves should put a beginners guide to positioning on each role and why we play around those positions. I enjoy watching OWL and top OW players and like to theorycraft and adopt high level play positions myself when playing Tank. But I ALWAYS get those people in my team who ridicule me for my shield placement/rotations on Eichenwalde/Volskaya defense on Orisa, while they stand in front of the choke and get blasted instantly and die. I have also had long ranged DPS players spam "Group up with me!" When they're standing on a capped Lighthouse point on Ilios, while I'm Winston/D.Va pushed forward on the high ground waiting for the next team fight. I want to practise good habits, but I feel forced to comply with the rest of my team and I feel awful when crap hits the fan and I knew exactly why it did. It's not fun at all. How am I supposed to learn from mistakes I already know are mistakes? Don't get me started on giving ticks/contesting the point... A lot of people still don't know you get instant respawn on 2CP :( I get yelled at for that too lol. A lot of people won't follow Tanks on a rotation and go the same old way every time. Or refuse to push through a choke hugging the Tank, they'll linger or stay behind. Too many times I've seen Ana players play far too back against dive DPS and don't rotate hugging tanks, promptly dying and failing our push. Lower ranks seem to have this out in the open, be in people's face kinda gameplay and don't bother looking externally on why they're dying a lot/not climbing in ranked. They just play the game how they've always played it. There's always the question of "Why?" Why do they need to set up here, why is highground always better, why should we push up and leave the objective and force/win fights away from it. Why are we doing this? We don't get any of this feedback from playing in the actual game. Most of it is willingness to learn or watching higher level gameplay. Perhaps a new game mode with set presets that visually show markers for positioning and an indication of how a team comp would usually play on each map? To give some visual indication of basic map positioning, and showing possible threats while not in that position? But still allowing players to be creative within safe positions, once they learn counters properly. I'd also love to see a separate SR for group play! It would mean I could queue with my Silver Ranked friends more, or create a throwaway practise team to experiment/practise team play on! I know multiple games that have this implemented already and they have unlimited teams you can make too. Not limiting you to one other team only. P.S I'm one of those players that likes playing Orisa, because it's literal torture playing Rein in low ranks haha!, and thank you for this talk, I learnt even more stuff! :3
On the Ban > Pool stuff - League uses bans and I think it's a really good idea that promotes you learning to play other characters too. Obviously I don;t think it's a good idea in ranked because you're with randoms and how would you pick etc, but for tournaments or leagues like OWL it would be a really good idea and fun to watch
Re: The sixth timestamp, I think Blizzard doesn't do anything to teach players how to play the two roles at all. At least with DPS the entire interface as well as the FPS genre's history can help aid DPS players to show where they are lacking. No such assistance exist for Tanks or Healers, especially with the concepts that are unique to Overwatch. Blizzard should revamp the entire interface to that shows and rewards when supports and tanks play the game properly.
I don't like the suggestion of punishing players who don't play Reinhardt or Winston. I just don't have fun playing those 2 heroes and if you force me to then I just won't queue for tank anymore
The Overwatch Developers needs to massively add to their tutorial system. There are layers to the game the majority of the player base does not see because we are expected to learn the entire game from the ground up during matchmaking.
I really feel like when I'm playing tank, the moment the enemy dps plays mei, echo, sym of torb, I can't do anything as rein, zarya, Winston or dva. I'm a high plat/low diamond TANK. also my team almost never hps in these ranks and semi force me to play sigma, hog or Orisa.
Reinhardt should have the rage ability cooldown that SVB is talking about. Mostly because it would be interactive for the player and also be a mini game with the opposing team so they're not feeding into his strength if they're spamming damage at him when they shouldn't be. I like the idea of the speed buff decaying too so he has to maintain it. Probably 3 seconds of increased immunity to crowd control and a buff to his movement speed when he gets attacked on a 8-10 second cooldown. Increase walk speed and steadfast by a percentage modifier. So for every 10 damage he receives when he's raging, he receives a 1% buff to his steadfast and movement speed to a maximum of 30% walk speed and 50% crowd control immunity. All temporary speed buffs will decay after he stops receiving damage at the rate of 5% per second. I feel like a change to Winton's tesla cannon mechanics could be cool to further enhance his place in dive comps. What if his tesla damage scaled higher when there are less enemies around to the value of 5 damage per enemy. This way he would do 90 dps if he's dueling somebody by themselves but he would be weak if he goes up against a rush comp that death balls. Maybe the range would be something like if there's more than 1 enemy within a 15 meter range, then the multiplier scales backwards so when he dives an enemy he'll do the initial 90 dps if they're by themselves but when a teammate is peeling for the person Winston is diving he now does 85 dps. If two people are peeling, he does 80 dps and so on and so forth. This could promote better positioning knowledge for both parties as well as encouraging peel. This would also help him be much stronger against things like double sniper comps or chasing down players who are way out of position. Maybe the animation indicator for if a player is diving correctly with him would be if his tesla cannon's electrical bolts attached to the number of players he's going up against. So if he's diving a person that's solo, all the charge from the tesla cannon is zapping that enemy but as soon as another enemy comes within that 15 meter range, the charge splits to help indicate that he's doing less dps. It would also help to promote team positional knowledge if one of you're squishies are getting dove upon and are pleading for peel or you know they're about to require help.
Huge issue with the game in general is meshing too many different groups of players together without making them learn the game. Overwatch appeals to tons of people: fps backgrounds, moba players, team game players, etc. Too many don't try to understand how Overwatch works and that it's a completely different beast from all of the games they've played: You have the sniper player from CS trying to 1v6 point B on 2 CP (not realizing that trade kills don't matter), or you have the guy from a stealth game who waits for all enemies to be killed before pushing objective (not realizing that you can pressure point or fucking move past a choke without getting kills). It doesn't end well for the people they play with and you have to play in spite of them instead of with them. And now you apply this to 2 sets of 6 people. It doesn't help that you have to go out of your way outside of Overwatch to learn how to play it, which most people even in ranked don't care to do (and you can't expect them to). What Flats said about masters-GM mixes is similar. It's exhausting swapping from Game A (I have to 1v6 carry or we lose) and Game B (we're playing as a team the game's actually fun) even in low SR, and it just makes climbing awful treating every other game as a GG go next.
Im pretty sure reins playrate is so high because people in low ranks scream about not having a shield. Like i had an account that I somehow ended up in plat on after being low masters, and while i was climbing back up I definitely noticed that people say that way too much... Like maybe if you knew what cover was you wouldnt need to cry about a shield
Don't forget all the people who switch to rein with 20 seconds left, that still counts. Agree though, Bogur's assumption on people enjoying rein is incredibly flawed.
Big agree, lots of people feel the need to be babysat by a shield because they dont position properly or dont really understand the tank actually taking space has more value than shield babysitting.
how about 1 shield tank per team? Not ban other tanks, just went one tank hero is already selected, then other tanks are unavailable. You can switch to the other tank at any point during the match.
My main problem with playing tank is my teammates. 90% of the time I pick Rein or any other shield tank, my teammates avoid my shield at all cost. I've seen multiple times a McCree actively stepping away or in front of my shield to use his ult just to get headshot by a Widow. Or supports running past the tanks to heal the Genji who was jumping at the enemy frontline alone. In low ranks the dps tell you what tank to pick and then ignore you for the rest of the game. "Tanks, play double shield" *instalocks doomfist*
That's why I (and probably a lot of other people) just play Zarya for example. You get way more value out of it and can adapt more easily. Comps mostly don't exist in low ranks. Some people try to imitate comps but don't know how and when to play them. And that's okay, I'd rather my teammates play who they play best and adapt if it doesn't work. Just don't tell the rest of the team what to play, and then ignore your team, feed and blame everyone else.
If Winston had a charge mechanic like sym, where he can charge up to about 20dps more than his base. This would help his time to kill and let him out damage a mercy pocket. I feel like this would put him in a better place but not make him broken. If winston wants to do more damage he has to stay in the fight longer, creates more skill in gaining charge and balancing when to get out.
@Sandra Swan it's very inconsistent to kill mercy as winston. You must do enough damage before she runs, then you must follow GA, and she can't get any heals from anyone, also no lucio or brig in the area, because his damage is almost nullified
I feel like I’ve lost my mind here... “gamesense doesn’t start till 4.2k”!? How is this not a bunch of elitists on a panel circlejerking about their peaks and hanging out with pros? Please spare a thought for us garbage peasants down in the mud. SVB you’re chill and pretty humble, but I kinda can’t take anybody else in the OW content creator circle anymore.
Having map dependant heroes /comps sounds refreshing at first... but wouldn't we be in the same unfun situation in the end ? We all agree it sucks to be forced off of your hero, but if new maps made less playes heros really good on them, people would be compelled to play the same comps every time the map is roled. And considering its much harder to change maps than heroes, we'd be stuck with that meta on those maps. This is especially shitty for tanks and supports. I don't want to be compelled to play a particular hero just because I rolled a certain map, I want variety. There are better ways of adding depth to the game and giving players agency in game balance, like paladins talent or item system, but the ow community is super resistant to change.
The Paladins talent system has flaws of its own. I can see the value of allowing the player some agency in game balance (it solves the issue of balancing for the highest levels often causing chaos for the lower-ranked majority), but something like a talent system makes it hard to know what you're playing against. The problem with Paladins specifically is that there's so much customization for the champions that you will almost never know what the enemy is using. It's impossible to have certain interactions because no Skye is ever going to be the same as another Skye. This even affects the very basic damage interactions with the card system because many of the cards allow you to change the flat number stats of a champion. This affects consistency heavily. The reason you can outplay people in OW is because there are known interactions and break points. But if one Roadhog in a game suddenly, without you knowing, gets 30% more healing from Take a Breather and another does 50% more damage after a hook, you will never know how to alter your play to deal with that character. Maps will have specific metas, yes, but the maps are random, and any given map can only have one best comp. If a new map were introduced, people would quickly find out the meta. I don't think it's possible to drown out meta styles when every map is so different, especially with Push on the horizon.
@@untapped8776 of course paladins' customization is flawed. But to suggest that customization/itemization makes games inherently unpredictable/chaotic is ludicrous. League of legends and dota are 2 of the most successful esports ever, both having over 100 heroes each, and exponentially more complex customizations, ontop of ability scaling. But moba players aren't in a constant state of confusion, because they keep track of what everyone is building. People are very capable of that, you, once they learn how. Good ow players already constantly check the scoreboard, its really not much of a stretch to include talents in scoreboard data. I've certainly not felt that paladins was too unpredictable to be competitive. Not at all. I'm not literally suggesting ow copy paladins' system, but some kind of streamlined customization tailored specifically for overwatch would be a fantastic experiment, Bliz did a good job implementing this in HOTS, i'm sure they could do it in OW. Eg. Every hero has a a handful of " talents" with easily recognizable icons, displayed in the corner of their portraits. Talents would be selected in spawn with heroes, functioning the same (ie, switching talents erases ult charge). So, zen could have a main-healer talent that increases his HPS, at the cost of harmony/discord orbs having cooldowns. You'd know an enemy is running "healer zen" by the " + "symbol in his portrait, and (as in mobas) hovering over it in the scoreboard provides exact talent stats. But i think you exaggerate the importance of knowing ability stats (which btw, can only be found on the user made wiki. Ow doesn't provide ANY ability stats, not even on the official website, because they're so afraid of making OW seem complicated.) yes, this would be more complicated, and checking the scoreboard would be necessary rather than something that only good players do. but imo, the ow Devs should just admit that ow IS complicated and requires reading /ability understanding. stop pretending that its something everyone can just hop on and immediately understand. It's not an arena shooter. Shroud and Dr disrespect have proven that mechanical skill, game experience and confidence only get you to plat, at best, and you'll be frustrated the entire way there because you wont understand anything thats happening until you read.
In response to Bogur about killing 2 or 3 people and winning the fight, the problem in plat/gold is people don't know how to push an advantage and don't use numbers or play as a team , you have 6 players go 6 different directions with 6 different strats every fight, more often than not the fight isn't won until it's a full team wipe in plat.
These great debates always make my shopping trips more enjoyable. Can't wait for more. I do wish you had someone like Harbleu or Poko (some well-known off-tank player) to break up the main tank circle-jerk :P, but I understand if no one was available.
Hey its you again, anyway no one plays tanks, and the majority of tank players are off tank players, its obvious they just like dps character whit 600 hp, not much insight from those players.
@@reynauldwhistles2338 Personally I play both but lean slightly more toward off-tank and honestly, the same can be said for a lot of main tanks as well. Sigma, Orisa (if you have good enough aim), and Ball are basically just DPS characters with huge health pools. Tanks have always been so powerful that aside from completely reworking the role, or introducing role lock, GOATs was never going to go away.
@@reynauldwhistles2338 To be fair, that's the reason they're so fun to play. They have feedback. Ball just has insanely fun movement and you can shoot, Hog hits those satisfying hooks and gets picks and can survive by himself, and the sound Zarya's bubbles make when you gain charge is like crack. It's part of the reason DPS is so popular. It's the sounds, the big red skull that pops up when you're doing your job. Meanwhile, on Reinhardt, you have no idea if that damage you're blocking is impactful or not.
The difference between a 4.2k peak and a 4.5k peak is the difference between a 1 in 250 player and a 1 in 20,000 player. A lot of 4.5 k peak players also have probably had good coaching along the way from knowledgeable players. Serious 1-on-1 coaching. Not YT guides.
@@AdamVoidless That would be nice, I think it would be more easily done if they added more tanks. Cuz right now if that were true tank would be by far the most limited role choice wise. I think thats a good idea tho and come OW2 I hope its a possibility
bogur hit on a great point towards the end there, keeping the content creators happy is vital. watching Dafran forcing symmetra bastion memes every game is much more enjoyable than watching someones eyes glaze over as they play double shield for the 1000th game in a row. It reminded me the game can be fun when i was getting worn out
Yo, Rein should have a temporary movement speed multiplier when he lands firestrikes. Rewards hitting your abilities, and lets you close the gap. Like if you agree !!
@Sandra Swan yea, but one characters viablility shouldnt have to depend almost completely on another hero being played (high ranks) This way he doesnt depend on lucio
@@reynauldwhistles2338 it could be based on the size of the target u hit, or how far away they are. For example if u hit a target thats really close and has a huge hitbox(a tank), it wouldnt make u much faster But if u hit a squishy from really far away u get a pretty good speed buff
@@TheWafflesPvP sigma used to have something similar, people didnt like being out played so they got rid of it (If they did that change the dps players also known as the majority will whine, why is a 500 hp tank able to outrun a soldier omg jeff nerf PLZ) , good idea in paper but the OW community is hard to satisfy, besides rein zarya is fine, I dont think rein need changes rn, Hog, orisa and brig on the other hand need to change role or be reworked maybe sigma too.
@@Kajor1 Nizeu! You have a new subscriber in me! Thanks for all your time and work for some really quality content. Everybody check out midge's content! I literally watched all your guides in one sitting because they're so thoughtful.
1:12:00 well Paladins does have several smaller Ranks inside of the overall Rank. Means in paladins we have Bronze,Silver,Gold,Plat with each having 5 sub Ranks (example: Gold 1, Gold 2 etc). In Diamond its Diamond 1,2 and 3, then masters and Gm. So adding like more Ranks wouldnt be such a bad idea tbh, maybe like every 150SR for example (in Paladins you need 100TP to Rank up, well you also have a chance to skip Ranks if your performance is godlike).
This is long overdue. The game and community around Overwatch has been struggling for a long, long time and Blizzard's aimless, overly frequent, overtuned patches have very nearly killed the initial magical spark Overwatch once had. I'm tired of having to be a meta slave every single game or risk my teammates melting down and losing ELO. Ideally, if I'm REALLY that skilled on a certain hero, and I REALLY love them, I should be able to play them most of the time and do well, even being able to outplay my counters. Blizzard is like a chicken with it's head cut off and I've never seen any dev so incredibly effective at destroying their own community's love for their game.
General vague summary: Basically, Tanks are the spine and central nervous system (heart included because it is also a 'centrepiece') while the rest of the team form around them. And when unfun tanks are played, boring comps are played. The most interesting tanks to play (statistical and anecdotal) are Reinhardt, Winston and Zarya although Reinhardt and Winston seem to be in need of a material way to SEE or FEEL that they are doing good. Playing together is fun (no shit Sherlock) The most played DPS are anti-tank, but the most fun anti-tanks aren't played because what they counter aren't either. And Blizzard is so up it's own ass about stats they forget they are making a GAME that people want to have FUN on. And people have fun most of the time when interacting positively with others to achieve victory (Introvert or extravert, and as an introvert, I can vouch for this in ANY game not just Overwatch) Blizzard is ignoring this in favour of pick rates, which say nothing of the actual power of the hero, just how enabling they are combine with fun and simplicity. So, they don't understand how to balance a game. I mean, take some page out of the AOE2 community and balance. There is like one problematic civ (Goths) but the rest have ways of being played to win by using their strength differently even in situations they theoretically get stomped. Pretty sure the Teuton of all civs are starting to be used in 1v1 Arabia because why not (and winning a surprising amount.) That meta developed mostly naturally and is still being explored organically. A trim here or there to ensure nothing dominates no matter what but what you pick is map based. Black Forest picked civs almost always have Britons because they are good on BF. Blizzard is trying to make a living log, and that's just not how it works.
You are speaking about casuals have no fun. guess what - casuals dont give a fuck about owl or contenders meta. We play Rein Zarya we Play Zarya Hog and we have fun and dont care about 2 shields or Brig buffs. And BTW Qucke champions have a lot of players who care about the game and stay in that game. And they have 500 online.
Rine winston should not be the meta. The meta should be Rock Paper Scissors balanced with dive, brawl, and bunker. But to do that bunker tanks need to be fun. I hate playing orisa please rework her to make her fun. Sigma is ok; he can get into a good flow. But orisa needs to be more fun.
@@Ian-zu3eq Fine rock paper scissors with soft counter and skill dependency; where if your team dedicates itself to a counter comp, it will most likely win all things being equal. Is that better? But there are hard counters for individual hero's in the game so if blizzard is going to balance the game in that style, they are probably going to keep hard counters for individual hero's in; not that a necessarily agree with it. Still a better state then "Rine and Winston meta".
Kinda like lineman in football they don't get the love but try doing anything without them as a quarter back I learned really fast to make sure those guys are happy or your gonna have a really bad time
@@davidp4270 yeah, it ultimately comes down to people not wanting to be responsible for others. Everyone loves DPS because they get the coolest looking moves, with the biggest numbers and their only job is to kill stuff good which is super rewarding. Supports/Tanks have the "great" job of babysitting your team. Supports have to make sure everyone else is alive and healthy and usually don't have the best damage numbers unless your playing out of your mind. As for tanks, their job is to get their ass kicked while surviving said "ass kicking" so that everyone else can do work, make big plays, do big heals and ultimately get crazy recognition. The moral of the story is "Dont play tank unless your in it to help, not to be recognized!"
Here's a thought- what if we had a global ultimate reset every time an objective was captured? One of the reasons control is so popular is that you see different comps on different stages, but as discussed in this video you get snowballed if you countercomp in other modes. I get that ult economy is a big skill factor, but it's also shit in a ranked setting.
We just need orisa to be in dive
everybody gansta until the orisa in comms says "IM DIVING THE ZEN!!"
I play orisa like a play genji ;)
@@oxgenmelter5595 feeding 1v6 is nothing new xD
I feel like I've heard this joke somewhere else but I don't remember where-
@@MadMax55777 it was a joke 😭
@@oxgenmelter5595 I get it, mate :D
This podcast was tons of fun! I kinda came in unprepared so I hope I did good and maybe changed the opinions of some of your or taught you something new.
Thanks for having me and I hope we can make more stuff together in the future!
[Insert PogChamp Emote Here]
You were rad dude. Hope we see you in a future debate!
I loved your take on many things ta k related
really loved your thoughts, you are top-tier, and I also love Winston, cheers!)
Yeah bro you’re a boss on Winston.. I stay watching your unranked to GM to try and learn/get out of plat
With all this great content and great guests I always forget that you „only“ have 40k subscribers...
Dont always watch SVB but man these long form discussions are really great
Probably the best of these discussions so far! Very insightful
Can you talk about problematic hero design in Overwatch? By that I mean like how most people feel like Orisa and Brig and etc feel boring when you are forced to play.
@Abhinav Banerjee because the game is supposed to be fun for the atleast most of its players
@@ysmg1061 Most of the players don't play Orisa?
@@KingOfNebbishes does that mean there supposed to ignore it if it's boring, no they should pay more attention to making the boring parts better.
@@ysmg1061 Since Orisa has a pick rate of, what, 3% below GM, I would suggest the problem instead is that they CHOOSE to play boring tanks. I could suggest they play "fun" tanks instead, but they slavishly play OWL comps in ranked, which is a THEM problem and not an Orisa problem.
@Abhinav Banerjee you enjoy playing orisa and brig is your favourite hero. Why am I not surprised lmao
Overwatch when you're level 4700 you know how it is in the higher level of play because players in the lower ranks don't know the level of the higher ranks of levels. Now GM players play at 4k not knowing the importance of higher level play, also contenders.
Exactly
silver tank meta right now seems to be run in and die and hope your team wins without you
lol, deranked to silver dps and it feels the same. If a Winston/Rein pushes in, I just lock a dps that works with them and play, usually we win/do well. Otherwise the team afks in choke and what do you do as a lone dps other than 1v6 and pray nobody on the enemy team deals with you?
@@ratchetst3v38 what dps pair well with ryan/Winston?
@@purplewine7362 Rein - Mei, Reaper, McCree, Sym if you're running a full rush comp. The last 3 run in with behind him and pressure the enemy tanks/shields; Mei can wall off enemies poking your Rein or supporting whoever your Rein is pushing.
Winston - various tbh, but dive dps (Tracer, Genji, Doom, Echo) can chase/pressure with him; ranged dps can poke people for Winston to jump on.
A QUICK INSERT ABOUT THE HOG CHANGES: yes they nerfed his fire rate, ammo count, and damage, but they buffed the hook so it pulls you 0.5 meters closer, making the one-shot easier on a lot of characters.
Undo that change and return his fire-rate recovery time for his gun to put a stop to the coin flip with securing a kill or it getting away.
glad you didnt ask SAMITO to join this debate regardless how good he is he's still a CLOWN !
These are honestly my favourite videos ever!
another amazing episode, great job
SVB your point at ~33m about tanks getting punished by the meta hits so hard. That is every single tank game I'm in these days. I love Orissa, though.
I play D.Va/Zarya and i can dabble with Ball.. But i never get to play D.Va and Zarya gets old after 2 games so i just play DPS or even Healer now.. But i used to almost only play tank.. Basically i just want to play D.Va lol, and ill play zarya if i have to but i dont want to play her exclusively.. To me those are the only fun tanks
(300H Orisa player)
All the tanks have one thing Orisa does not, an alternative damage source/ a you die now button.
And her only damage source isn't impactful or reliable enough to give the player that satisfying feeling of impact from landing it.
Due to Orisa only having m1 as her only means to impact a heros health pool makes it so the player doesn't have any options or procedure to be able to finish/deal with someone unlike
Rien who has pin/fire strike/shatter
Hog: M2/Whole hog,
Weinstein: Jump pack impact damage/primal
Zarya: M2/Grav
D.VA: Rockets/boop/Nuke
Sigma: Rock(the impact comes more from the stun)/Flux
Ball: Ground slam/ body slam/ mines
(Most of these tanks M1s are also impactful enough that it feels good to land them)
All Orisa can do is M1 someone to death which due to the nature of her M1 isnt reliable enough to land or strong enough to out damage healing to be able to matter enough for it to feel impactful and fun for players to want to put the effort in landing it, so she has no dps play potential and agian, unlike the other tanks her innate kit limits any other form of play making potential, this means she has no wow momments that other tanks have, and for that she's doomed to be boring to play becouse you really don't get a return investment on that rush feeling on Orisa when you make a skilful play, unlike with the other tanks when you invest the same amount of energy in making a play.
(yes, you can halt people off the map and into things but that's map and who you are halting/halting with dependent)
The part about wishing players would speak more is weird at lower levels because a lot of the time someone will speak up with a plan that is bat shit insane and wrong like "we need a rein to go into this bastion." and then at least one other player will go "yeah, let's do that" and will get mad if you try to have any dissenting ideas or say why that's bad. To some extent it's ok because even if it's not the best plan as long as you do the same thing as a team you usually are doing more than the other team, but sometimes you all go brawl on first point attack junkertown and get rolled or do a solo change to pop off and carry and have someone potentially get tilted and throw.
I think that they should stop buffing at all. If Blizzard wants balance, they should nerf heros. Right now, dps does too much damage therefore supports are healing bots that heal too much
I think i am in the most dangerous role atm. Im in a 3200 tank. I had back to back 2600 lobby and a 3800 lobby. I lost the plat and won the masters. WTF
I feel like 6 stack GM queues added more of a gradient to the game which was great. Yeah if you run up against NYXL or Shock then you're going to lose, they're just the best and there's an unbelievable challenge at the top. If you lose you could still be the second best stack in queue at that moment, and that's ok!
Why not put streamer teams up against pro teams and see what happens? Maybe 2 pro teams will come up against each other and you get an unexpected OWL scrim. Who cares? I, the peasant Plat player, certainly won't be offended.
I made it to about 55:50 minutes when Bogur goes '...4200 peak and 4500 peak is like night and day.' Really? Ugh. The elitism started showing from the Ivory tower. I had to tap out.
Yes Flats, the problem with ranked is the queues are TOO FAST. Wtf are you on about?
how does svb feel about being mogged by three other men
2:08:57 That did not age well
The number of times I have seen my teammates on my Xbox account which is in Gold request or Reinhardt or a sigma for a shield and then do absolutely nothing to stand behind the shield and constantly walk in front of it is beyond mind blowing for some of you if I gave you actual numbers you would be like this is crazy this is absolutely nonsense why are you picking Ryan and the reason is I pick Ryan because if I don't I get screamed at all game for being anything else but hog
I remember playing 10hrs a day on tank and then going to sleep excited to play tank again the next day. These days it's hard to play 5 games in a row as tank, feel like if u don't play double shield or have a brig/bap u become a punching bag. It's not fun, I want to play literally any of the other tanks, but I can't lol
I agree with this I went from doubling my play time on tanks in two seasons to playing almost none
Yeah it's only fun to play zarya or hog and rein is only playable when you have an ana pocketing you
Its just not fun to play tank anymore honestly. I used to primarily play tanks like rein, winston and zarya, but now I just dont even want to bother. With all the cc, one shots, and power creep on all dps, why bother? You have shield for half a second before its completely gone, then get rushed down. You make space and then nothing gets done with it. Even double shield feels stale. I love overwatch but they really did make playing tank a chore, which is why probably people play more solo potential characters like d.va, ball, or hog.
I play in silver, I've won 9 of 10 games as Sigma so I dunno lol
@@BrofUJu Sigma is one of the best duelists though (if you can hit your shots)
I don't know why some people are hating on Freedo or saying he's out of place. He's a high enough level player and has a deeper understanding of the game than a lot of the community, and is creating content FOR US. So I for one, would like to thank SVB for putting this together.
Also, everybody wish SVB a happy belated birthday! It was his birthday yesterday! Let's go duuuuuuudes!
@Abhinav Banerjee Freedo and his youtube channel, "Your Overwatch", gets criticised on both blizzard forums as well as reddit. Which is why I brought it up.
It's Samito we hate, not Freedo generally. But Freedo simps for him hard so he is by extension, not always the best source.
@@BookofConke we?! No I love samito his takes are accurate
@Abhinav Banerjee okay? He's not allowed to want to win nigga!? And brig is op she can do everything without trying to, Pepega
Because his opinions are regularly garbage filled with inaccuracies. His "coaching" videos consist of you should just switch off this character and I'm not going to provide you any relevant information on this hero.
People in lower ranks play rein mostly because they feel like they have to
Team will complain for not having a shield or will just suck without it in lower ranks
And rein is the easiest shield hero to play there because he has the biggest shield
I personally like playing sigma or hog and can do absolutely fine without a shield if needed, I love killing people even when olaying tanks
Peak on tanks 3940, current 3400
Yea I find most people feel comfortable having a big shield but the low rank playstyle really doesn't need one
I've been finding lost of success on ball on control because both the game mode and the players themselves feeds into the more chaotic nature of the game where everyone can carry themselves on individual plays unlike the team oriented shield comps that people 'want' to play
Ball acting as a cooldown robber makes so much more space than any of the tanks throwing out shield wish they could make in low ranks. My team always gets so much value just from me going in eating all the stuns and sometimes nades living througb it and rolling away with some members of the enemy team chasing me on some occassions
It gives the dps players so much room to pick of players who aren't on the same page with their team
@Sandra Swan personally I love rein hanamura, cause its either rein/zar vs rein/zar or double shield. I personally hate double shield because orisa doesn't give me the sweet serotonin and I get to play more aggro on rein alongside a zarya which is uber fun
Who hurt you sweet Bogur? **strokes hair** Who hurt you? Bogur: Fugging double shield, man.
@Abhinav Banerjee Nope, just agroed, it's a gaming term used mostly in the MMO community, though it's usually spelled with two g's.
@@agroed like brig getting all the aggro when ever there is a new patch?
Aggro is like a attention right?
@@reynauldwhistles2338 Haha, or Orisa, yeah, lol.
@@reynauldwhistles2338 Exactly, but it's usually a bad idea to aggro a Brig 1v1.
She is basically the final boss, common sense says: don't do it.
Just slowly nope away and don't poke the dragon.
And yes, she gets all the hate, she is Satan 2.0... Brig is the ultimate Mei successor.
lmao love your comment. Double shield does suck for his amazing monkey
4.2k and 4.4k SR are different cause at that level SR rises slow af.
Resulting in 200 SR basically turning into 500 SR worth of skill lower down.
GM is more then one rank, above masters ranked has at least 4-5 more levels of wildly growing skill.
True. Every ~100 SR the skill level changes drastically
Ok but that rein guide by freedo 🔥🔥🔥
Lol Freedos channel has no content. There is not one video on his channel. Nice try
@@catra195 oh not that freedo, I’m talking about first name: Freedo middle name: Your last name: Overwatch
wishing guides foused less on the mistakes the player in vod review made and more on the mistakes the enemy made that they can punish. if its all about mistakes...point them out maybe?
@@micmccond7 this is a bad mentality. By focusing on punishing enemy mistakes you are doing 3 things... first not addressing and sometimes reinforcing your mistakes, second relying on enemies to make mistakes to win yourself and lastly relying on an unpredictable strategy that falls off drastically when you climb instead of actually learning the game
@@micmccond7 The point is that you learn when to spot mistakes by improving yourself. This is something that just comes naturally over time when you work on your own gameplay
I'm sure a bunch of other main tank players will agree that a late Hog swap is because of inconsistent healing.
I really enjoy SVB being devil's advocate here and being a good host. The vocal minority was a great moment, really redirected the conversation and gave a perspective check
Small buff to speed boost, and buff Winston armor. We don’t need more damage or shields but initiation / movement problems are mostly what’s holding some of these tanks back.
IOSTUX video on positioning is what taught me about why to take high-ground
@Abhinav Banerjee But from that higher angle, you also can hit more headshots, because their head hitbox is in more in front of their body. Keep at it man, I know from personal experience how frustrating Silver can be, but you can do it!
@Abhinav Banerjee That's more because you have less space to move around. Imagine a globe, right?
The circle at the bottom and top is smaller than the circle at the middle. That's why it feels disorienting
Obi wan kenobi taught me about taking the high ground
Silver?! *shudder* There's a LOT of great workshop codes for practice on headshots, high grounds shooting pharamercys, etc. 10-30 min warmup/practice every time and I guarantee you'll be gold in no time!
Was duo queuing tank in Platinum at the height of the Hog/Zarya meta. I remember a game where the entire team turned on my friend and I because we weren’t using a shield. Even though we were dominating the game as Hog and Zarya, we were winning, the dps were getting picks and the supports weren’t being harassed. The entire team was screaming at us to go Rein. They just had no concept of how to play without a shield. Without a shield the team has no shape and people can’t position at all. But if I go Rein the game is awful for me, I cannot carry and the team will probably lose. Overwatch has issues that Blizzard seem to refuse to address season on season.
Lmao some people dont realize ur supposed to be peeking the entire time and need a rein to literally babysit them its very frustrating. Its not even an OW problem, I think lower ranks just dont understand space. you dont need a Reinhardt to take space and open lanes is all u need
"everyone had so much fun during the Genji meta"
Wanna bet?
Those 40second blades. So much fun. Noone can get an ulti in time to have a decent counter. I really enjoyed being instakilled as support.
The ana on my team had a blast sleeping every genji
It was a lot of fun indeed. Furst time in 3 or 4 years when genji could be a true dd and not just shuriken poker/bladebot
As an Ana main I was having loads of fun
Moira mains were malding because they realized they weren't good enough to survive a nano blade
Thank you for bringing Freedo on SVB, a lot of people love to hate but he’s the non-vocal majority’s hero!
@Abhinav Banerjee samito: waaaaah brig and Orisa are boring waaaah
me: haha fusion driver goo brrrr
@Abhinav Banerjee But Freedo simps for Samito so he is by extention not a great source.
@Abhinav Banerjee I hate Freedo, he is so elitist in the way he talks.
Freedo has some good opinions, but he thinks his opinion is way more relevant than it is, he's not a horrible player but he's not amazing, so when he speaks on metas and stuff, he has the knowledge but not all the experience if that makes sense
The hell he is.
Interesting but also a bit frustrating...like the prompt goes to "how do we address the knowledge gap" and then nobody even talked about it, it just went back into complaining about the problems of upper GM ladder. And then talking about how people don't play tank because the fun characters are weak? Didn't we literally just see stats showing that the "fun" tanks are still played by every other rank than GM, but people still don't play the role?
It’s about the number of players playing main tank/fun tanks, Not just the proportion. In high gold I get in a game within 12 seconds. Recently there’s been a lot of hog and ball which I assume are dps trying to play faster. As for the knowledge gap it is what it is. There’s Plenty of content creators trying to educate. The blizzard client literally showcases videos trying to educate on overwatch. I think it’s just casuals and people not wanting/caring to learn the game
For Orisa in terms of risk/reward, maybe an interesting mechanic would be that her gun fed off of her shield as some sort of shared resource meter? Like your shots would be stronger if you sacrificed shield health? Also, this is neither here nor there, but I always thought they should give her a kick move (maybe it could replace her fortify and have all-directional knockback to protect her bunker). But why would you make a horse character with four hulking legs that couldn't kick people in the teeth?!
Fortify is the only ability she has focused on her, might be better to replace Halt with something else. Orisa feels boring because 2 of her 3 abilities are focused on the team (everyone can use barriers and everyone can follow up on halt)
@Jake Pedersen what would be more fun? Kicking a reapers skull in with your back legs or pulling people in by pressing right click
YEASSSS! YOU DID A SECOND ONE!!! I LOVE YOU SVB
The fact that there is NO dps in the game that is scared of a Rein or Winston coming towards them bc they can all delete them easily which is stupid like how are main tanks the least scary heroes in the tank role?!? Whereas they are scared of a hog sig zarya or ball. Personally I think it’s ok to buff reins shield bc he can’t do anything other than shield when he uses it whereas orisa and sig can use all their other abilities so reins shield should be much stronger and he needs the shatter and steadfast buffs. Winston could probably use a small armour buff so he doesn’t explode. But personally I still think dps need overall nerfs, and bap needs a revert on his ult and brigs repair pack should be removed or changed
Baptiste's ult is essentially useless down in the lower ranks and in some senses so is widow's but I think it needs shrinking a bit it's a bit too powerul
@@jplayzow That’s kind of true but that’s also down to the fact that people see everyone grouping up in high ranks and using immorality and amp matrix effectively in gm but in lower ranks on bap u should just use it selfishly to get a pick or two or maybe say to one of your dps to come stand with u and use it together.
@@Chaz-Support the thing is in low ranks we have that same I am jesus christmas I will never join chat or group or whatever kinda nonsense and most of us can't aim for the life of us which is part of why we're stuck down here I agree the ultimate isn't the problem so much as us but I do feel like it was a bit small for us to use effectively considering the lack of awareness and if their ult is basically useless the hero will go basically unused compared to someone like Mercy whose entire kit is "what are aiming we no do" you're right in the we need to be grouped but that is the problem: getting people in a spot and not dying
DPS are easily the worst role in the game again. If you don't play a ranged hitscan, you are borderline useless. DPS don't need nerfs, tanks need to be changed to feel like tanks again. Not fat DPS like Sig,ball or hog who don't follow rules and make games feel like ffa
“Brigs repair pack should be removed or changed”? She’s a healer dude with the least healing potential out of all the supports. The repair pack should be buffed if anything.
Every hero in this game has a huge community that loves playing them. Stop dunking on Orisa and Sig. Also, off tanks in this game are just bruisers. Also, Brig and Bap aren't even played outside of GM and Masters
SPITTING SOME STRAIGHT F A C T S
Firstly, boring is subjective as I find dive boring even though pros love it. But also, it makes sense that the higher you go up the ladder, the more narrow and less diverse comps are. But the game should be enjoyable to the most amount of people over the 1%. I love Orisa btw.
@@tymiller176 Why is dive boring for you? Is the specific role you main play a factor in this? What comps have you enjoyed playing overall?
@@verdanteridium I just like where diverse comps flourish. Everything from brawl to bunker to clockwork. Make all heroes viable
@@tymiller176 Coolio, I'd ask what you consider viable, but that'd be nitpicky to ask. But to make sure I understand, you like metas where you can pick a character to play and have fun. Cool to know, I really dislike being THAT asshole, so I'll be the ask question asshole to less of the actual scumbag type.
When Flats went off about Echo that resonated with me. She made tank so much worse to play. If she'd been any other role, or if we'd had a character in one of the other roles instead of her, it would have helped at least a little.
Happy birthday Flats! (and SVB too :P)
Also...
31:13 "Just do something" and what that something would be?
Still, fantastic debate! A very complex topic, and all guests had great points.
I like that this is an ongoing series. I thought that we would only get one of these, and I was sad because I thought "oh the meta will change and half of this conversation will be pointless in a couple months." But I totally intend to keep watching these as they continue to come out.
I remember a time around late 2018 early 2019 when people were complaining about D.va being meta for so long, someone said that they felt D.va was the gatekeeper of a lot of shitty metas
Look where we are now
Shows most people talk shit when it comes to overwatch because they're too lazy to try counter
Of you have to play dva for like 2 years its gonna get boring eventualy
@@pieterteerhuis4152 wrong :)
D.Va is the gatekeeper of Overwatch that has been trashed. Her 15 m matrix at the old recharge rate was a perfect balance. Her denial of Ana and hitscans kept the game at a healthy balance without her being overpowering. Nerf dva and buff everthing = all the crap metas. Except for goats, that was brig's fault
Bro I like me some Flats but I love me some Bogur
Nice chat, guys. This Flats dude is hilarious.
You should check out his RUclips channel he’s got good videos
Bogur reeeally was a good guy for this debate
22:15 That's exactly why i play Zarya since Season 2 and i studied her like some people do studies at university to get REALLY good.
My bubble usage is kinda garb, I can get high charge easy but never have bubbles ready when it's needed to save people
@@MoistChungus saving people is more useful than high charge a lot of the time. She is a tank not dps. Matchup dependent but a lot of time saving people IS what gets you that high charge. At least vs Roadhog or burst damage characters
@@MoistChungus the timing is super important aka the when to use it. check out canas1ians youtube channel. the vod reviews are old but in terms of "how to play with rein" are still good
As a support player ive never been much of a lucio player. Never really liked his kit and if i am being honest at low ranks lucios come in two flavors bad reddit lucio or heals only lucio.
Valid. Is there any part of Lucio's kit you do like in concept? Do you just not jam with the hero's playstyle? Which supports do you prefer and why?
I love his ult. I like the facts his kit is actually musical and i like his design. For me wall riding has never been my jam which is something good lucios need to master so thats been mostly the thing keeping me from playing lucio also big burst healing is my support character playstyle i prefer from what i can tell from other games i play with the same game designs.
When I first Started i was a zen main still am kinda. This is before bap, brig, and Moira. Currently i play bap, brig, and zen when i can. I hate mercy and moira and Don't trust my Ana play.
I was finally able to catch this live! I will never not listen to these I learn new things every time a new Debate comes out. Much love SVB and the guests!
Imho, if we actually want to get overwatch to a better competitive place, we need, in this order:
1)Hero ban system
2) Map Choice system
3) Catch up Tanks and supports with more heroes
With how Blizzard has been operating though, we’ll probably get hero ban at the end of OW2 lifespan and everyone will agree we should have done it from the beginning. Map choice will come super late or be very limited. And OW2 will come out with 5 new heroes: 1 support, 1 tank, and 3 Damage 😂
Your third point is key for me.
It is honestly a joke that they only released 3 tanks and 4 supports post release but then had time to release 4 DPS characters AND rework 2 damage characters, including reworking symmetra several times.
You want more people to play tank? Release more of them. Make them more fun and engaging to play. Stop having DPS and supports that literally can entirely negate a hero with the press of a button.
Tank is a role that feels so much more beholden to their team, yet is so integral to in game success. It baffles me how what is agreed to be the most important role is so chronically neglected
In the metal ranks it’s hard to run meta tank comps because “teammates just wander off and do random things.” This touched me on a spiritual level.
Not having an offtank main hurt the podcast. People don't like to play main tank that much. I gave up Rein and now just play offtank when I noticed it's just DPS daycare half of the time. They want rein, but never protect rein against a Mei/Reaper. Screw that. The games are messier, but I'm having a lot more of a fun time.
yeah but isn't that kind of an argument for the fact that main tanking needs to be kind of buffed so you have the carry potential even if your team is more reluctant to help
You risk main tanks being raid bosses then. Playing rein with a good Ana/Moira pocket, a lucio, a zary/dva (playing with hog sucks) and a team is great and a lot of fun. The fundamental issue being that ranked is full of randoms playing their own game. It's not a team game and never will be. It's a pickup game, at best.
I used to play online competitive games in a clan. It wasn't overwatch, but the difference between organized play and pubs (think matchmaking) was night and day. Overwatch needs a team ladder for all ranks like what was suggested.
And main tank is team dependent. It always has been. What good is an offensive line if you don't have a running back to run through the hole? Thing is, you can have an all star RB without a OL in OW and that creates the mindset that you don't need your team in ranked.
Main tanks can still climb on ladder too, not just playing Orisa as well. But the OW devs have made it known that they don't believe in the MT and OT concept. While I disagree, ranked isn't organized play and I won't play it as such anymore for randoms.
Samito is too loud. I personally find playing Orisa very fun. Her weapon is satisfying to use, halt is a great ability, its so so so so satisfying to block CC with fortify, she has a great personality, supercharger is one of the best ultimates in the game, I could go on.
@Abhinav Banerjee yes and as I said man is fortify satisfying. If I would change one thing it’s that I think she could use some sort of passive.
My most played character is Orisa, an I love messing with reins, and I shoot shields cuz its annoying when my dps don't have the fire power to do so, I get she's not the most "fun" and flashy but I don't care to be the star player, I just want to win, I want to take point and move/stop karts, I don't care to hit crazy 360 shots on 1 person cuz thats not the objective, it's fun if it works an you look good but if your team gets wrecked the whole time it seems useless
i thought this thread was 100 percent sarcasm on the first read.
@@LdotMessi it’s not lmfao
I don't see how they're confused about knowledge gap. There's basically no game knowledge in the actual game. Based on the discourse, it's as if the hardcore playerbase knows more about the game than the developers based on the quality of information we get.
Lots of potentially insightful changes that I personally agree would be great for the game but these issues are definitely most prevalent at the highest ranks. Some of the points regarding how "fresh/stale" a meta can be a bit lost when its coming from the tippy top of the playerbase grinding this game for hours on end. Again, I truly do understand that this is still an issue and I do wish Blizzard would be more proactive and aggressive with their patches (even at the cost of "perfect balance") but staleness is something you're gunna have to deal with when it's your livelihood revolves around the game.
Thanks for the podcast as usual SVB! Looking forward to the next chapter.
SVB you do a great job as moderator and periodically summing everything up. LOVE your content
The issue that most of these youtubers and streamers miss when complaining about Orisa and the tank role is two fold. #1 Orisa mains exist and they enjoy playing her, for the very reasons you hate playing her. They enjoy enabling their teammates, it's a more passive way to play the game. Some heroes enable their teammates more than others. Roadhog, for example, can solo carry, he can play a bit more independently and get picks. That's why you see A-type personalities play him more often. If you don't like playing that teamwork oriented, passive style of play then you're gonna hate playing heroes like that. It's important to the health of the game to offer a variety of different types of playstyles to cater to many different types of players.
#2 There isn't enough tank (and support) hero variety choice and overlap. Buffs, Nerfs, Reworks, etc, aren't going to solve the problem of not having enough choice in those roles. That's partially why people feel like they are locked into a certain hero like Orisa, like Brigitte, etc. The game becomes much easier to balance when it becomes more complex (contrary to what your gut reaction might be). When you have ability overlap, more counters, more interactions, you have more choice. E.G. If you need a tank hero with an ability that can eat ultimates and damage. Sigma's Kinetic Grasp & D.Va's Defense Matrix can do that. Both are different, but fundamentally the same. So you have a choice, Sigma or D.Va. If you need a tank hero with a shield you have Orisa, Winston, Sigma, and Reinhardt. If you need a tank hero with mobility, you have Winston, Wrecking Ball, D.Va. You get the idea. DPS has way more choice. Way more counter play. My hope is that Blizzard solves this with many more tanks and supports to pick from. No amount of nerfs or buffs is going to solve the lack of choice.
I agree here. When Orisa came out, I liked that slow build play style. But I got more into dive after that.
I don’t want to assume about others here, but from my experience there is a gendered response here. I feel like female players sometimes like that passive team enabling play style. It can be frustrating, but I understand. Sometimes I like playing that style as well.
I think there is some unchecked sexism there. I also think samitos video is kind of mean. I think it’s okay to have Orisa be that play style. Maybe it shouldn’t be the meta though.
I personally think there is a lot of privilege at the top of the Overwatch ladder. They often forget Overwatchis what it is because of “casuals” I kind of hate that term.
@@nicholasemmendorfer8748 what does gender have to do with anything? There's some unchecked sexism in your comment buddy.
@@LonestarBF How? I’m claiming there is unchecked sexism in the Overwatch community. So how would I be the sexist one. My comment came from the fact that I heard female identifying players on a podcast specifically claim that they feel ‘pressured to play characters more active than Mercy’ and they felt it was likely due to the fact that some toxic ideas in the male gaming culture cause men to naturally prefer active heroes over heroes that support in a passive manner.
And there would be plenty of evidence to this clam considering the stats the devs put out suggest that Mercy and Dva have far more females in their cohort than some other characters.
So my question would be what evidence would you have to suggest I’m bringing gender into this, when it very clearly is something that’s already been complained about from the launch of the game.
Hell, even most of the higher echelon shits on characters that rely heavily on team oriented play. Something I don’t think you would see as much if we were more open to a variety of play styles from a variety of different players.
@@nicholasemmendorfer8748 Uh, my evidence is that OP never talked about gender, but you feel the need to make it about gender.
They said multiple times that orisa was fun on her own. Only once sigma came in was her kit too strong once stacked. And on top of her being a must pick she was inherently uninteresting for the vast majority of players past a beginning level.
They also said multiple times that orisa is fun in certain niches/situations and that that’s ok.
Oh and yeah the gender thing being brought up here is hella forced, irrelevant, and a projection of the commenter far more than anything from this purely insightful podcast. Good day.
Bro I woke up at 3am and this podcast was playing 💀
Same 💀
sigma is a lot of fun tbh....its just orisa sig that made the problem. if sig was interchangeable with rein and winston that would be sick. like a 3rd main tank.
It`s just interresting to listen to.
My friend and I were playing overwatch last night and we both queued for tank in quick play
We both found a match in under 20 seconds
Woohoo!! Been waiting for the RUclips upload cos I can’t catch these live, much love SVB
Give Winston a passive ability
Or give him another ability. He literally doesn't use Alternate fire currently.
I agree that content creators or maybe Overwatch Dev's themselves should put a beginners guide to positioning on each role and why we play around those positions. I enjoy watching OWL and top OW players and like to theorycraft and adopt high level play positions myself when playing Tank. But I ALWAYS get those people in my team who ridicule me for my shield placement/rotations on Eichenwalde/Volskaya defense on Orisa, while they stand in front of the choke and get blasted instantly and die. I have also had long ranged DPS players spam "Group up with me!" When they're standing on a capped Lighthouse point on Ilios, while I'm Winston/D.Va pushed forward on the high ground waiting for the next team fight. I want to practise good habits, but I feel forced to comply with the rest of my team and I feel awful when crap hits the fan and I knew exactly why it did. It's not fun at all. How am I supposed to learn from mistakes I already know are mistakes? Don't get me started on giving ticks/contesting the point... A lot of people still don't know you get instant respawn on 2CP :( I get yelled at for that too lol. A lot of people won't follow Tanks on a rotation and go the same old way every time. Or refuse to push through a choke hugging the Tank, they'll linger or stay behind. Too many times I've seen Ana players play far too back against dive DPS and don't rotate hugging tanks, promptly dying and failing our push.
Lower ranks seem to have this out in the open, be in people's face kinda gameplay and don't bother looking externally on why they're dying a lot/not climbing in ranked. They just play the game how they've always played it. There's always the question of "Why?" Why do they need to set up here, why is highground always better, why should we push up and leave the objective and force/win fights away from it. Why are we doing this? We don't get any of this feedback from playing in the actual game. Most of it is willingness to learn or watching higher level gameplay. Perhaps a new game mode with set presets that visually show markers for positioning and an indication of how a team comp would usually play on each map? To give some visual indication of basic map positioning, and showing possible threats while not in that position? But still allowing players to be creative within safe positions, once they learn counters properly.
I'd also love to see a separate SR for group play! It would mean I could queue with my Silver Ranked friends more, or create a throwaway practise team to experiment/practise team play on! I know multiple games that have this implemented already and they have unlimited teams you can make too. Not limiting you to one other team only.
P.S I'm one of those players that likes playing Orisa, because it's literal torture playing Rein in low ranks haha!, and thank you for this talk, I learnt even more stuff! :3
We need a hero that can shoot long range through shields. Y/N?
On the Ban > Pool stuff - League uses bans and I think it's a really good idea that promotes you learning to play other characters too. Obviously I don;t think it's a good idea in ranked because you're with randoms and how would you pick etc, but for tournaments or leagues like OWL it would be a really good idea and fun to watch
Re: The sixth timestamp, I think Blizzard doesn't do anything to teach players how to play the two roles at all. At least with DPS the entire interface as well as the FPS genre's history can help aid DPS players to show where they are lacking. No such assistance exist for Tanks or Healers, especially with the concepts that are unique to Overwatch. Blizzard should revamp the entire interface to that shows and rewards when supports and tanks play the game properly.
I don't like the suggestion of punishing players who don't play Reinhardt or Winston.
I just don't have fun playing those 2 heroes and if you force me to then I just won't queue for tank anymore
Happy Late Birthday SVB!!!!!!
The Overwatch Developers needs to massively add to their tutorial system. There are layers to the game the majority of the player base does not see because we are expected to learn the entire game from the ground up during matchmaking.
I really feel like when I'm playing tank, the moment the enemy dps plays mei, echo, sym of torb, I can't do anything as rein, zarya, Winston or dva. I'm a high plat/low diamond TANK. also my team almost never hps in these ranks and semi force me to play sigma, hog or Orisa.
Reinhardt should have the rage ability cooldown that SVB is talking about. Mostly because it would be interactive for the player and also be a mini game with the opposing team so they're not feeding into his strength if they're spamming damage at him when they shouldn't be. I like the idea of the speed buff decaying too so he has to maintain it. Probably 3 seconds of increased immunity to crowd control and a buff to his movement speed when he gets attacked on a 8-10 second cooldown.
Increase walk speed and steadfast by a percentage modifier. So for every 10 damage he receives when he's raging, he receives a 1% buff to his steadfast and movement speed to a maximum of 30% walk speed and 50% crowd control immunity. All temporary speed buffs will decay after he stops receiving damage at the rate of 5% per second.
I feel like a change to Winton's tesla cannon mechanics could be cool to further enhance his place in dive comps. What if his tesla damage scaled higher when there are less enemies around to the value of 5 damage per enemy. This way he would do 90 dps if he's dueling somebody by themselves but he would be weak if he goes up against a rush comp that death balls. Maybe the range would be something like if there's more than 1 enemy within a 15 meter range, then the multiplier scales backwards so when he dives an enemy he'll do the initial 90 dps if they're by themselves but when a teammate is peeling for the person Winston is diving he now does 85 dps. If two people are peeling, he does 80 dps and so on and so forth.
This could promote better positioning knowledge for both parties as well as encouraging peel. This would also help him be much stronger against things like double sniper comps or chasing down players who are way out of position. Maybe the animation indicator for if a player is diving correctly with him would be if his tesla cannon's electrical bolts attached to the number of players he's going up against. So if he's diving a person that's solo, all the charge from the tesla cannon is zapping that enemy but as soon as another enemy comes within that 15 meter range, the charge splits to help indicate that he's doing less dps. It would also help to promote team positional knowledge if one of you're squishies are getting dove upon and are pleading for peel or you know they're about to require help.
Bogur may be my favorite player now lmao
flats and explaining high ground to people who don't get it 52:12
Huge issue with the game in general is meshing too many different groups of players together without making them learn the game. Overwatch appeals to tons of people: fps backgrounds, moba players, team game players, etc. Too many don't try to understand how Overwatch works and that it's a completely different beast from all of the games they've played: You have the sniper player from CS trying to 1v6 point B on 2 CP (not realizing that trade kills don't matter), or you have the guy from a stealth game who waits for all enemies to be killed before pushing objective (not realizing that you can pressure point or fucking move past a choke without getting kills). It doesn't end well for the people they play with and you have to play in spite of them instead of with them. And now you apply this to 2 sets of 6 people. It doesn't help that you have to go out of your way outside of Overwatch to learn how to play it, which most people even in ranked don't care to do (and you can't expect them to).
What Flats said about masters-GM mixes is similar. It's exhausting swapping from Game A (I have to 1v6 carry or we lose) and Game B (we're playing as a team the game's actually fun) even in low SR, and it just makes climbing awful treating every other game as a GG go next.
Im pretty sure reins playrate is so high because people in low ranks scream about not having a shield. Like i had an account that I somehow ended up in plat on after being low masters, and while i was climbing back up I definitely noticed that people say that way too much... Like maybe if you knew what cover was you wouldnt need to cry about a shield
Don't forget all the people who switch to rein with 20 seconds left, that still counts.
Agree though, Bogur's assumption on people enjoying rein is incredibly flawed.
Big agree, lots of people feel the need to be babysat by a shield because they dont position properly or dont really understand the tank actually taking space has more value than shield babysitting.
how about 1 shield tank per team? Not ban other tanks, just went one tank hero is already selected, then other tanks are unavailable. You can switch to the other tank at any point during the match.
My main problem with playing tank is my teammates. 90% of the time I pick Rein or any other shield tank, my teammates avoid my shield at all cost. I've seen multiple times a McCree actively stepping away or in front of my shield to use his ult just to get headshot by a Widow. Or supports running past the tanks to heal the Genji who was jumping at the enemy frontline alone.
In low ranks the dps tell you what tank to pick and then ignore you for the rest of the game. "Tanks, play double shield" *instalocks doomfist*
That's why I (and probably a lot of other people) just play Zarya for example. You get way more value out of it and can adapt more easily.
Comps mostly don't exist in low ranks. Some people try to imitate comps but don't know how and when to play them. And that's okay, I'd rather my teammates play who they play best and adapt if it doesn't work. Just don't tell the rest of the team what to play, and then ignore your team, feed and blame everyone else.
If Winston had a charge mechanic like sym, where he can charge up to about 20dps more than his base. This would help his time to kill and let him out damage a mercy pocket. I feel like this would put him in a better place but not make him broken. If winston wants to do more damage he has to stay in the fight longer, creates more skill in gaining charge and balancing when to get out.
@Sandra Swan it's very inconsistent to kill mercy as winston. You must do enough damage before she runs, then you must follow GA, and she can't get any heals from anyone, also no lucio or brig in the area, because his damage is almost nullified
I feel like I’ve lost my mind here... “gamesense doesn’t start till 4.2k”!? How is this not a bunch of elitists on a panel circlejerking about their peaks and hanging out with pros? Please spare a thought for us garbage peasants down in the mud. SVB you’re chill and pretty humble, but I kinda can’t take anybody else in the OW content creator circle anymore.
Having map dependant heroes /comps sounds refreshing at first... but wouldn't we be in the same unfun situation in the end ? We all agree it sucks to be forced off of your hero, but if new maps made less playes heros really good on them, people would be compelled to play the same comps every time the map is roled. And considering its much harder to change maps than heroes, we'd be stuck with that meta on those maps. This is especially shitty for tanks and supports. I don't want to be compelled to play a particular hero just because I rolled a certain map, I want variety.
There are better ways of adding depth to the game and giving players agency in game balance, like paladins talent or item system, but the ow community is super resistant to change.
The Paladins talent system has flaws of its own.
I can see the value of allowing the player some agency in game balance (it solves the issue of balancing for the highest levels often causing chaos for the lower-ranked majority), but something like a talent system makes it hard to know what you're playing against.
The problem with Paladins specifically is that there's so much customization for the champions that you will almost never know what the enemy is using. It's impossible to have certain interactions because no Skye is ever going to be the same as another Skye. This even affects the very basic damage interactions with the card system because many of the cards allow you to change the flat number stats of a champion.
This affects consistency heavily. The reason you can outplay people in OW is because there are known interactions and break points. But if one Roadhog in a game suddenly, without you knowing, gets 30% more healing from Take a Breather and another does 50% more damage after a hook, you will never know how to alter your play to deal with that character.
Maps will have specific metas, yes, but the maps are random, and any given map can only have one best comp. If a new map were introduced, people would quickly find out the meta. I don't think it's possible to drown out meta styles when every map is so different, especially with Push on the horizon.
@@untapped8776 of course paladins' customization is flawed. But to suggest that customization/itemization makes games inherently unpredictable/chaotic is ludicrous. League of legends and dota are 2 of the most successful esports ever, both having over 100 heroes each, and exponentially more complex customizations, ontop of ability scaling. But moba players aren't in a constant state of confusion, because they keep track of what everyone is building. People are very capable of that, you, once they learn how. Good ow players already constantly check the scoreboard, its really not much of a stretch to include talents in scoreboard data. I've certainly not felt that paladins was too unpredictable to be competitive. Not at all.
I'm not literally suggesting ow copy paladins' system, but some kind of streamlined customization tailored specifically for overwatch would be a fantastic experiment, Bliz did a good job implementing this in HOTS, i'm sure they could do it in OW.
Eg. Every hero has a a handful of " talents" with easily recognizable icons, displayed in the corner of their portraits. Talents would be selected in spawn with heroes, functioning the same (ie, switching talents erases ult charge).
So, zen could have a main-healer talent that increases his HPS, at the cost of harmony/discord orbs having cooldowns. You'd know an enemy is running "healer zen" by the " + "symbol in his portrait, and (as in mobas) hovering over it in the scoreboard provides exact talent stats. But i think you exaggerate the importance of knowing ability stats (which btw, can only be found on the user made wiki. Ow doesn't provide ANY ability stats, not even on the official website, because they're so afraid of making OW seem complicated.)
yes, this would be more complicated, and checking the scoreboard would be necessary rather than something that only good players do. but imo, the ow Devs should just admit that ow IS complicated and requires reading /ability understanding. stop pretending that its something everyone can just hop on and immediately understand. It's not an arena shooter. Shroud and Dr disrespect have proven that mechanical skill, game experience and confidence only get you to plat, at best, and you'll be frustrated the entire way there because you wont understand anything thats happening until you read.
In response to Bogur about killing 2 or 3 people and winning the fight, the problem in plat/gold is people don't know how to push an advantage and don't use numbers or play as a team , you have 6 players go 6 different directions with 6 different strats every fight, more often than not the fight isn't won until it's a full team wipe in plat.
Crazy how a year later and this talk is still relavant
These great debates always make my shopping trips more enjoyable. Can't wait for more. I do wish you had someone like Harbleu or Poko (some well-known off-tank player) to break up the main tank circle-jerk :P, but I understand if no one was available.
Hey its you again, anyway no one plays tanks, and the majority of tank players are off tank players, its obvious they just like dps character whit 600 hp, not much insight from those players.
@@reynauldwhistles2338 Personally I play both but lean slightly more toward off-tank and honestly, the same can be said for a lot of main tanks as well. Sigma, Orisa (if you have good enough aim), and Ball are basically just DPS characters with huge health pools. Tanks have always been so powerful that aside from completely reworking the role, or introducing role lock, GOATs was never going to go away.
@@reynauldwhistles2338 To be fair, that's the reason they're so fun to play. They have feedback. Ball just has insanely fun movement and you can shoot, Hog hits those satisfying hooks and gets picks and can survive by himself, and the sound Zarya's bubbles make when you gain charge is like crack.
It's part of the reason DPS is so popular. It's the sounds, the big red skull that pops up when you're doing your job. Meanwhile, on Reinhardt, you have no idea if that damage you're blocking is impactful or not.
The difference between a 4.2k peak and a 4.5k peak is the difference between a 1 in 250 player and a 1 in 20,000 player. A lot of 4.5 k peak players also have probably had good coaching along the way from knowledgeable players. Serious 1-on-1 coaching. Not YT guides.
How hard is it to add a 1 Shield tank limit? Nobody including the devs like the comp
then ppl like sigma become useless as their shield doesn't really stand alone most of the time
@@rare9242 Nopr because that 1 shield limit would allow the devs to buff Orisa and Sigma to be MT on their own
@@AdamVoidless That would be nice, I think it would be more easily done if they added more tanks. Cuz right now if that were true tank would be by far the most limited role choice wise. I think thats a good idea tho and come OW2 I hope its a possibility
@Jake Pedersen Yes it does idiot. It removes the worst comp from the game and allows the devs to buff the MT
bogur hit on a great point towards the end there, keeping the content creators happy is vital. watching Dafran forcing symmetra bastion memes every game is much more enjoyable than watching someones eyes glaze over as they play double shield for the 1000th game in a row. It reminded me the game can be fun when i was getting worn out
Yo,
Rein should have a temporary movement speed multiplier when he lands firestrikes.
Rewards hitting your abilities, and lets you close the gap.
Like if you agree !!
@Sandra Swan yea, but one characters viablility shouldnt have to depend almost completely on another hero being played (high ranks)
This way he doesnt depend on lucio
@@TheWafflesPvP that way the lucio would be even more important.
Step 1- Land firestrike (not hard)
Step 2- amp it up
Step 3-
Step 4- profit
@@reynauldwhistles2338 it could be based on the size of the target u hit, or how far away they are.
For example if u hit a target thats really close and has a huge hitbox(a tank), it wouldnt make u much faster
But if u hit a squishy from really far away u get a pretty good speed buff
@@TheWafflesPvP sigma used to have something similar, people didnt like being out played so they got rid of it (If they did that change the dps players also known as the majority will whine, why is a 500 hp tank able to outrun a soldier omg jeff nerf PLZ) , good idea in paper but the OW community is hard to satisfy, besides rein zarya is fine, I dont think rein need changes rn, Hog, orisa and brig on the other hand need to change role or be reworked maybe sigma too.
@@reynauldwhistles2338 what kinda OW player are u? Like do you grind comp alot? QP? Arcade? Whats ur SR?
Now this, is *epic*
Love your guides, midge! Please do more educational content!
@@andrewkong3154 *pssssst* sombra one coming out tmoz
@@Kajor1 Nizeu! You have a new subscriber in me! Thanks for all your time and work for some really quality content. Everybody check out midge's content! I literally watched all your guides in one sitting because they're so thoughtful.
1:12:00 well Paladins does have several smaller Ranks inside of the overall Rank.
Means in paladins we have Bronze,Silver,Gold,Plat with each having 5 sub Ranks (example: Gold 1, Gold 2 etc). In Diamond its Diamond 1,2 and 3, then masters and Gm.
So adding like more Ranks wouldnt be such a bad idea tbh, maybe like every 150SR for example (in Paladins you need 100TP to Rank up, well you also have a chance to skip Ranks if your performance is godlike).
This is long overdue. The game and community around Overwatch has been struggling for a long, long time and Blizzard's aimless, overly frequent, overtuned patches have very nearly killed the initial magical spark Overwatch once had. I'm tired of having to be a meta slave every single game or risk my teammates melting down and losing ELO. Ideally, if I'm REALLY that skilled on a certain hero, and I REALLY love them, I should be able to play them most of the time and do well, even being able to outplay my counters. Blizzard is like a chicken with it's head cut off and I've never seen any dev so incredibly effective at destroying their own community's love for their game.
General vague summary:
Basically, Tanks are the spine and central nervous system (heart included because it is also a 'centrepiece') while the rest of the team form around them. And when unfun tanks are played, boring comps are played. The most interesting tanks to play (statistical and anecdotal) are Reinhardt, Winston and Zarya although Reinhardt and Winston seem to be in need of a material way to SEE or FEEL that they are doing good.
Playing together is fun (no shit Sherlock)
The most played DPS are anti-tank, but the most fun anti-tanks aren't played because what they counter aren't either.
And Blizzard is so up it's own ass about stats they forget they are making a GAME that people want to have FUN on. And people have fun most of the time when interacting positively with others to achieve victory (Introvert or extravert, and as an introvert, I can vouch for this in ANY game not just Overwatch)
Blizzard is ignoring this in favour of pick rates, which say nothing of the actual power of the hero, just how enabling they are combine with fun and simplicity.
So, they don't understand how to balance a game. I mean, take some page out of the AOE2 community and balance. There is like one problematic civ (Goths) but the rest have ways of being played to win by using their strength differently even in situations they theoretically get stomped. Pretty sure the Teuton of all civs are starting to be used in 1v1 Arabia because why not (and winning a surprising amount.)
That meta developed mostly naturally and is still being explored organically. A trim here or there to ensure nothing dominates no matter what but what you pick is map based. Black Forest picked civs almost always have Britons because they are good on BF.
Blizzard is trying to make a living log, and that's just not how it works.
You are speaking about casuals have no fun. guess what - casuals dont give a fuck about owl or contenders meta. We play Rein Zarya we Play Zarya Hog and we have fun and dont care about 2 shields or Brig buffs.
And BTW Qucke champions have a lot of players who care about the game and stay in that game. And they have 500 online.
great video , and I love unranked to GM.s.. but im a Gold so what do i know. If this game was not toxic I would never stop playing it.
Rine winston should not be the meta. The meta should be Rock Paper Scissors balanced with dive, brawl, and bunker. But to do that bunker tanks need to be fun. I hate playing orisa please rework her to make her fun. Sigma is ok; he can get into a good flow. But orisa needs to be more fun.
rock paper scissors is a poor way of describing it, hard counters shouldn’t really exist
@@Ian-zu3eq Fine rock paper scissors with soft counter and skill dependency; where if your team dedicates itself to a counter comp, it will most likely win all things being equal. Is that better? But there are hard counters for individual hero's in the game so if blizzard is going to balance the game in that style, they are probably going to keep hard counters for individual hero's in; not that a necessarily agree with it. Still a better state then "Rine and Winston meta".
Why are tanks no fun?
That's the TANK dilema in every kind of game, not a OW problem, you either love it or hate it.
So true, I've played enough MMOs where people avoid tanks like the plague.
Kinda like lineman in football they don't get the love but try doing anything without them as a quarter back I learned really fast to make sure those guys are happy or your gonna have a really bad time
@@davidp4270 yeah, it ultimately comes down to people not wanting to be responsible for others. Everyone loves DPS because they get the coolest looking moves, with the biggest numbers and their only job is to kill stuff good which is super rewarding. Supports/Tanks have the "great" job of babysitting your team. Supports have to make sure everyone else is alive and healthy and usually don't have the best damage numbers unless your playing out of your mind. As for tanks, their job is to get their ass kicked while surviving said "ass kicking" so that everyone else can do work, make big plays, do big heals and ultimately get crazy recognition. The moral of the story is "Dont play tank unless your in it to help, not to be recognized!"
Here's a thought- what if we had a global ultimate reset every time an objective was captured? One of the reasons control is so popular is that you see different comps on different stages, but as discussed in this video you get snowballed if you countercomp in other modes. I get that ult economy is a big skill factor, but it's also shit in a ranked setting.