What if Winston damaged shield and HP before damage registered for armor? Or have his tesla cannon have bonus damage against shield HP? I think an interaction like this could help against sigma an orisa. Have his cannon be more efficient at stripping shield but also have it damage the HP/shield to first. He has too much damage reduction against armor. This would be a good buff for him. And help enable the dive. That way, a coordinated attack is worth it. Have someone burst the armor while Winston damaged the real hp
"Tank is one of the roles where people most expect you to pick X tank but will not pick the heroes around that tank's comp." YES this exactly! I think this is almost entirely what makes tank frustrating to me, is all the players who feel entitled to a tank they're used to or they've seen on OWL but they themselves are a bad Tracer main and will not switch.
This and there's one maybe two feasible tank comps that pair together. Teammate locks zarya, you gotta go Reinhardt, etc. It feels kinda bad that your other tank dictates who you'll play when they selfishly instalock, meanwhile your team demands a tank that their DPS or healer doesn't even work well with.
@@jemmascott5559 Would be nice but I always found myself waiting to see what everyone else picked before I picked a tank haha! Needless to say I think I'm done with solo queues. Find a group isn't perfect but at least it can help find people who are more on a similar page at the very least.
i agree with the shield problem, people are way too dependent on shields and has completely forgotten the way of playing without a main shield, which is terrible for someone who really enjoyed dive in year 1 of overwatch
Played Ball with a dps friend, he told me that the reason he couldn't hit shots consistently is because he didn't have a MT. When I pointed out that he actually had one , he told me that he needed a SHIELD, because he was getting pressured constantly. I found that hard to be believe since I was harassing the backline on every engage and 9 times out of 10, 3 players from the opposing team were focused on me. Shield is good but not mandatory
One of the things that I've combated people with if I'm ever playing ball specifically because I'm not getting any assistance as a main tank is that people need to use natural cover, and position themselves better.
@@sideeswipe Its kinda of annoying that he will talk half of the time when he's the person with the least useful input. This is the 3rd(?) video and I honestly hope he's not in the next one.
It's a dumb idea. The concept of arbitrarily buffing his DMG against only electronics is something you'd do for flavor in like a single player game. That shit has no place in competitive hero shooter.
@@athing8523 I would only agree if we're talking about a pure shooter rather than an ability-based one. Stuns done well are a necessary and skillful counter to interrupt certain abilities. "electronics" is an abstract concept people are imagining as a mechanic. Are Echo & Bastion electronics? Just turrets? Let's say just turrets. Why would Winston get a buff against turrets only? Nothing else in game works that way. There isn't some hero who does extra damage but only against Barriers, or only against Shield, or only against flankers. This is needless complexity with no apparent benefit. If Bap lamp needs nerfed then just nerf it. Winston already cleaves that thing through barriers and therefore kills it better than most Tanks.
@@libertyprime9307 Emp only deletes shield health, molten core only does extra damage to armor, symmetra only gets free ammo off of shields. Emp and hack do not effect bastion or echo differently from anyone else so your electronic argument is already gone.
@@libertyprime9307 Also my argument has nothing to do with bap lamp. i think bap lamp is in a fine spot if not it deserves of a slight buff with a slight nerf to his damage.
This is a really exciting idea! I think shooters offer me an incredibly polished, refined UI feedback to make DPS characters *feel* good, especially when I get a kill. I'd LOVE to feel that dopamine squirt for tanks and supports when I do the OPPOSITE of kill someone
Obligatory link to Ster's suggestions along the same lines, complete with edited example: ruclips.net/video/gVwKsjx1NUg/видео.html never fails to make me laugh
@@GrammarHoodie I actually recently got a "Lifesaver" highlight on Zarya. I absolutely should get way more of those highlights, maybe even POTGs with it. Blizzard could easily add that into the game, with a "close call" or "lifesaver" notification, or both. The "close call" notification might encourage too much risk, but on the other hand if you got that notification every time a Widow missed, it would encourage good movement, higher APM, and more fun play styles.
Some of you have said you would really like it in a print or tee form. For anyone interested, DM me on Discord at SVB#9838 or email me at svboverwatch@gmail.com and I'm working on a way to get that to be a reality! :)
That Rein shatter nerf was honestly completely unwarranted, and kinda felt like the devs wanted SigOrisa to be the absolute best choice in every situation. It made no sense to me at all.
I know they wanted to lessen the amount of CC in the game but nobody was complaining about shatter, if you got shattered you usually weren’t raging because of it
CTCEcho I would only when I am no where near it and it still hits me or when I’m in high ground and it hits me it’s called earth shatter for a reason and it shouldn’t go above the ground that much
Im a Rein main and the reason why they nerfed shatter was because rein could 1v6 everyone with shatter cause it shattered you for a decade. The nerfed shatter should now be used more with the team.
playing rein has sucked recently, i've been really feeling the burst damage. in lower ranks genji can just jump past your shield and spam right clicks at you while your team spams their shield and wonders why you can't do anything.
(Support main here) Yeah I don’t know what it is but Rein seems like he’s getting burned down so quickly. It really feels like the Rein has to be so on his game more so now than ever. I think Lucio being less meta definitely adds.
Same. The second I drop my shield to swing a few times at the enemy rein I lose like 300 hp in a snap and since it’s lower ranks the supports are unpredictable. It can be an Ana and a moira(great heals) or a fucking mercy and a Lucio(actually 0 healing) meaning I have no choice but to fall back so the enemy rein dont swing at me giving the enemy an incredible amount of space to play with. And yea, I think part of the problem is that genji can push out 90+ dmg every second then gain like 12 ult charge from every 3 or 4 shurikens hit. Actually busted
@@sandman616 I'm on console and your average plat ana isn't a main healer, but once I hit diamond and got into low masters games I started to see Same with Winston, he's a feed machine if you don't play him right, and lower ranks don't usually know how to play him, I love playing with a good Winston lol
@@Gibbypastrami A good Winston needs a good team who doesn't peek at choke points... Also a lot of teammates think Primal is an ult where you get a 6k easily so nobody tries to help you securing kills and nobody heals you lol
@@sandman616 Plat and below believe that mercy is not only a main healer, but the most healing of all. I reached GM with 0 hours on mercy cause it's no fun to pocket heal.
Jacob Vollmer for real tho. It’s usually dps mains which I’m not knocking on but they’ll be the first to tell you to switch hero’s and be the last to switch off what they play. One time we had a rian zarya brawl comp and this dude had the audacity to play bastion. Like bro it’s kings row let me have fun for once with brawl instead of double shield which is also questionable why he would choose bastion but anyways supports and tanks always got each other
I haven't seen much talk about Flats' point of adding more feedback to tanks to make them more rewarding and fun, but in my opinion one of the characters that does this the best is Zarya. You know you're doing something right on Zarya when you bubble a teammate and get that charge because of the bubble sounds. For me it's one of the most satisfying sounds in the game, that beautiful ramp-up and the numbers going up, combined with your beam getting bigger and louder. Purely on visual and sound design alone, I can tell that I'm doing things right on Zarya, and that's why she's my main and so insanely fun to me. More characters need that. If a similar sound was made when Rein is blocking a lot of damage or Dva eats an ultimate or something, it really would do a lot to improve how good tanks feel to play, hopefully drawing more people to them.
Dva makes a specific sound if you eat Ults I'm pretty sure it's just pretty quite but I hear the same sound every single time I eat those juicy tracer bombs gravs blizzards and dragons
The thing with having that on rein compared to zarya is that zaryas entire kit is based around her charge. If you have high charge you're doing good 90% of the time but with rein blocking dmg doesn't necessarily mean you're doing good and giving that play positive feedback could lead to players developing bad habits. I do agree with what you're saying in terms of concept but it's going to be quite difficult to implement in a way that isn't detrimental as none of the other tanks gameplay is almost entirely built of one statistic.
@@denim9475 what I think they could do, very easily, is implement a lifesaver notification. Something where every time you body block or shield someone who would have died if you hadn't been there, you get a notification. Blizzard could do that very easily, I think, because I've gotten a Lifesaver highlight on Zarya where the whole play was me holding down m1 on nothing in particular, but 3 of my bubbles saved a teammate.
The medal system needs to change. About the feedback from the game, if you play Rein and you block the enemy Rein's shatter, that should register in the game as a job well done. Other hero specific interactions should be outlined in a new and improved reward system. Maybe even make it an actual reward system that will give bonus xp and therefore larger chance of getting more loot boxes.
well that wont be as straightforward for example suppose youre on the edge of enemy rein's shatter range and you block it for yourself but your teammates who are a bit to the other side will get shattered. It's hard to gauge how well you performed there. Was it your teammates faults for not standing behind you? Or were you out of position?
@@wren4077 To make it straightforward, you ulting your counterpart whilst they still have ultimate should give you more points or whatever, simple as that, and it's a great performance to dodge from Rein's shatter range, and anybody who got caught beyond the shield is a fucking idiot, the problem is you now need those idiots to be on the poin, they're dead and you're not, "Don't be correct, be smart."
1. the medal system doesn't need to change. Player mindset about medals needs to change (i.e. ignore them). 2. Blocking a Shatter doesn't necessarily have any impact, it's scenario-dependent. There is no way this game will ever track individual performance accurately in-match. Too abstract.
@@libertyprime9307 yea these plays are very abstract concepts to track . Like something as basic as a mei walling off a rein from his team is too complicated to be quantified. The mentality of relying on medals just needs to go away.
Lee McDonald I’m saying it’s a low skill, night impact ability. Where as shatter is a high skill, high impact ability. One should be better than the other
I've never wanted anything in the game more than Winston doing more damage to deployables. Not only is that accurate to his character and complements his kit, it just sounds super cool! We need more characters with unique interactions like that.
I absolutely love Flats perspective on knowing when you do something correctly and getting rewarded for it. Everyone knows the feeling of being the key person in a pivotal part of a match but there's no credit given. Very few people notice at all.
I'd like to see Winston get jump pack reset on elim like genji just to see what itd be like i know practically it'd probably be to much but it could be fun for giggles
As a lower rank player, a lot of what was brought up definitely affects us. People are too used to sustain/shields instead of positioning + timing (myself included). It's a coin flip sometimes though. I can constantly get 3-4 man Ana nades, but swapping to Bap with raw healing + shield break gets us better pushes/wins. Some games are the opposite where sustain does nothing, so I go for more aggro support play and we have a better game. Tank wise, if Hog is in the line up (which happens too much, maybe they don't trust healers or dps), it becomes infinitely harder. You need your solo tank to push in to make space (with the shield nerfs, only Rein can make that happen if it's a slow map; maps with high ground might work with Winston/Ball assuming they don't go in 1v3 and die), you have to pray Hog either uses cover or plays around the main tank and gets hooks/good pressure. More often than not, he's just afk in chokes letting the other team farm ults that your team cannot prepare for because you have no space, you have no kills, and nobody can live because neither tank can/will deal with whoever's on the backline or whoever's spamming out your team. Hog definitely can be good, especially against hard dive/flank comps, but if you're Hog isn't doing that, the other team gets value for him existing lol. Flats had a really good point with tanking, there's no good way for tanks to actually know that they're tanking well. You can do everything right, but it feels awful (Rein/Winston pushes in to give his team space, he gets melted. His team might win the fight, but he wasn't there for it). That's a huge part of why lower rank players go for Hog/Ball over the more team play oriented tanks.
About cancelling Rein's charge, I think a good compromise would be to add a "braking state", so when you cancel charge you don't immediately stop, but still have to travel some distance based on how long you have waited to cancel it. Also, when hitting enemies in this state you coud boop then. i think that with this it would still punish you if you didn't time it right, and would open up possibilities for skillful use.
Well, i think that what we could do is have rein mirror his cinematic. Ironically lore wise it would be a step back for his character, but gameplay wise him somewhat drifting around like he does may be somethkng fun
I perceive the reason that people are dependent on shields is because, especially on ladder, shields allow you to make mistakes and not get punished as heavily. Dive comps only work because you are forcing enemies to make mistakes because of the quick nature of how "Dive" works and the fact that it is a focus down type comp. Shield tanks are a comfort zone for most, and as a dps player myself I do inherently make mistakes and cowering behind a shield is what is normal. If you don't have any kind of shield whatsoever it's harder to push onto enemies cause you aren't allowed to make mistakes. It's one of the key reasons why "hog and ball torture" is just that, torture. People don't know how to play against an opponent without shields, if so then not well.
To touch on that point, people don't realize how you can punish this over-reliance on shields. A very fun trick to do with Ball is to knock just the main tank around and have everyone try to focus you. If they tunnel vision and forget to take natural cover, the dps on your team should easily be able to land shots on the enemy squishies. You can apply this concept while playing Rein or Orisa by moving the main tank to a spot where they don't want to be using the hammer or Halt. It won't be immediately obvious why they're losing and that's the point.
@Gaussian Entity Ball into double Barrier is pretty trash in solo queue environment unless you have a Zarya or Dva covering you. Halt + Accretion and Ball dies every time. Also Zen meta, so discorded too.
what mistakes? As a hitscan DPS player I feel like if we have no shields on anubis or volskaya 1st point and I peek for a second , i get deleted by the junkrat/pharah/bastion/torb/sym spamming through the choke. even worse if they have shields. I really don't like playing flankers but that seems like the only solution sometimes
My biggest issue as a tank main is feeling like I have agency. There are certain matchups, say against Reaper, where I feel like I can't do much to help myself or my team, it'd be great if we could get more options and tools. In the Reaper example, perhaps we could have a flying tank to hover above reapers effective range but they'd have a huge cockpit head hit box to be picked apart by snipers, but then tanks could swap Winston to deal with snipers and then the cycle would repeat.
This One is way better than "the great healing debate" because u can see who is talking and also see some reactions to some points. I love this format. Keep it up! :)
"Other hero's need to be brought down to match the reasonably balanced heroes" This is the design direction Blizz should follow for ALL future patches. No more power creep! OP DPS is the reason we have too much healing, because anyone can get deleted at a moments notice, nerf the strongest dps, and then we can tone down some healing, and then tanks will feel better to play, since they aren't getting deleted, but aren't immortal either.
I think healing should be toned down, not because I think "fuck healers" but because supports aren't supposed to be healers at all. Back in the early days of OW best healing pair was Mercy/Lucio. We still got along fine back then. I understand that there is a lot of burst now, but heroes like Tracer and Widow were virtually untouched. Like yeah you could 1 clip someone, but Zen (who was the one you'd 1 clip back then) would just fight back. If he was unaware he died, if he was diligent he had a fighting chance. Supports should be characters who do just that, support a play style. Ana should be a sniper who can ALSO heal, but really wants to just sniper people whether they are enemies are allies. Make her do 95 damage a shot both heals and damage, but make her fire slower and give her a clip of 6 (like a bolt action sniper). Her healing would suffer, but when you snipe your genji doing backflips, he is fine after 1 shot most likely and takes that duel handedly. Tanks should be vying for positioning and heals should be able to refill their health when in a safe position, but not sustain them through an entire fight. I think changes to tanks are necessary too so that we can blur the lines between MT and off tank. Make Reinhardt more reliable by himself, but nerf his staying power a bit too. Like more tanks should feel like Sigma, able to take space effectively, but not really able to just shield a choke for years on end. make Rein's shield weaker (like 1000 hp), but take away the speed penalty for example. Make damage more sticky, then lets look at burst. Think about it this way, burst damage is burst damage whether you have full health or half health right? The changes to burst doesn't really matter where as the changing to healing effects the way the game is played right now.
It's the tanks who have OP damage. However, Widow, Ashe, Junk, Echo, Doom, Hanzo, Genji, Tracer... also contribute to the burst damage that you're experiencing. The spam meta in general needs to go away, and then we can tune the healing. DPS can't "carry" like tanks can, and never really have been able to, but it's hard to ignore many DPS's high burst potential.
There is no OP dps... supports and tanks out damage dps how fucking delusional tank/support players are thinking dps shouldn’t be able to one tap/do high damage
1:44:10 The game that figured this out was Halo 5: Guardians. They had a bunch of medals for assist, staying alive, being a distraction, ect. If Overwatch got rid of the generic "on fire" system and coded in medals (maybe for using barriers on abilities like sleep or nade, taking a lot of damage and getting back to full hp, a clear medal for offensive assist with nade or pull, ect), you'd have a lot more tangible positive feedback.
Ooh. Flats gave a good opening into another video, how to play dive properly! So exited to see Forgiving and Flats and, of course, Freedo. Love your videos.
FAAAAAACTS!!!!!! He really got me when he said we had rein dva meta for 3 weeks and it immediately got nerfed but we were ok with double shield for 3 months?
This was an awesome conversation. As a newly returning player, I feel like I have a much better understanding of the current state of things. One suggestion I really liked was your idea about needing to earn their shields back. I'm not too sure how it would work with the main tanks, but I think it could balance Sigma really well. What if his shield regenerated much slower.... like REALLY slow... basically just between team fights. But then his Kinetic Grasp would first recharge his shield (if recalled) to full before applying the temp shields to Sigma's HP. This would allow Sigma to still utilize both of them at the start of a fight, but it would also allow for a team to cut through his sustain by breaking his shield and then not feeding his grasp.
@@AdderallAscension yea. Its easy to start and play. But once you realise all the things you have to do so your team can thrive is what makes it frustrating cus you can play everything right and in the end its still up to your team to follow up on the position/space you provide them.
You can nerf IF by making the minimum hp of a hero in its range drop from 20% to something lower, or maybe even have it linear to the disc's hp, so if i didnt kill the field, but i dropped it to 50%, the heroes in it can drop down to 10%
i feel like if its not possible to make everyone equally playable all the time, just lean into the "different maps and map parts are best for different comps and heroes" type of thing. and tbh, in soloqueue in most elos, this is the case. i dont really think this game can achieve a pro level balance where there isnt one dominant comp of 6 heroes for the majority of the maps. but atleast i think the overall powercreep could go down so the effects of any meta are not quite as bad and can be finetuned more. overwatch is like that hype dubstep track that just has too much of every instrument. it can be fun and hype, but listen to too much of it, and it will get annoying very fast. overwatch needs some more subtle balance. some dynamic balance and not "add more spice if its too sweet, oh now its too dull add more salt now". at some point you will have to throw away the monster you created and start over with some careful reverse engeneering.
It might be possible but until we get a map editor, we won't get true diversity in maps. Blizzard maps in different games have had their charm and experience but they have severely lacked in bringing diversity. And the ones that do bring diversity (Horizon, Paris) are mostly hated because they feel TOO different.
@@GaussianEntity i dont really think they are hated because they are different. i just feel they are frustrating to play on while STILL being the exact same formula of every 2cp map before. notice how only the new 2cp maps are hated. 2cp is the most disliked game mode as is and those 2 new 2cp maps are just a tad more furstrating to play on than the other ones. tbh i still think attacking on hanamura second can be an absolute nightmare, and i dont really like any 2cp map because the chokes tend to be so easily defendable, and then theres this stalling the point war on all of them. i think only volskaya does that right.
@@libertyprime9307 Naw, the real problem is Blizzard isn't willing to take a look at the workshop game modes more, why don't we have a multi-capture zone. We know that they wanted to rework 2CP and honestly take it out of the game but keep the maps for something else perhaps.
Some of you have said you really like the thumbnail art (thank you!) and would really like it in a print or tee form so here's the link to that now: www.redbubble.com/shop/ap/53628293 And timestamps: 00:00 - Introduction 01:25 - Winston 18:55 - Orisa 35:15 - Should 'fun' be taken into account when balancing? 51:05 - Is there too much burst damage now? 58:35 - Does No One Play Around Tanks? 1:11:40 - DVa (& also Sigma) 1:23:05 - Roadhog 1:39:40 - How To Make Tanks Fun Again 1:58:15 - Wrecking Ball 2:05:13 - Reinhardt 2:32:10 - Zarya 2:36:17 - Concluding Thoughts
I don't agree with the statement "we can all agree we hate Brig and Bap." I dont hate them at all, I just think they are poorly balanced. Maybe you hate them because of immortality field and CC but that's your opinion. There's a hive mind culture among people that consume overwatch content or play in high ranks, but many of my more casual friends actually really like these heroes and enjoy playing them. I personally play in masters, so I understand the issues you're talking about, but there's often a disconnect between the opinions in our ranks and a large part of the player base that doesn't religiously consume overwatch content on RUclips.
Your comment is entirely too understanding and productive to be on RUclips. Maybe some of us support players enjoy having Brig around because we spent years getting melted by Dive and having a bit of peel that actually pays attention to the other support(s) is kind of nice to have.
@@noahbrinkman4216 If that's true, then I challenge any Master or GM player to let a Plat or below player use their account for 100 games and pick only Moira, Brig or Bap. If these characters get value simply "for existing', then after 100 games, they won't lose much SR, right? I don't disagree with the fact that WHEN PLAYED WELL, these characters change the game simply by existing. But that's what support players (and other high-utility characters) are SUPPOSED to do. Lucio completely changes the game simply by existing due to his speed boost. Mercy changes the game by existing due to Rez. Zen enabled the high-damage strategies of Dive and GOATS simply by existing. If anything, among the supports Ana is an exception rather than the rule.
It's part of the whole reason why this game I genuinely enjoy is growing more and more difficult to have fun with. The "good" people go "X hero gets value from existing", but when I look at every kit of all the heroes, they all take some sort of skill to use. Brigitte's shield slam is rather short range and the stun is less than a second. And her AoE heal requires her to be in melee to work. So if the other team plays at range, she gets little value. The reason why I liked OP's comment about group think is that once something is deemed "broken" or "op", it's just understood to be that. Like that clip they showed of Brigitte beating that Rein in a duel. Why should a solo Rein be able to kill her when she's both using her ultimate AND being healed by the other healer? I'd love the various 'groups' to appreciate the actual amount of practice and work it takes to play all the heroes and not just the ones people grant the title of "skill hero" to play. I know that Mercy is an easier hero to play, but you can feel how awful it is when your Mercy is bad at playing Mercy. Or people saying "X hero is not fun to play against". I don't mind playing against Brigitte at all. I think playing against Hamster, Tracer, and Genji is the worst. I hate playing against them, especially when Overwatch was young and if you didn't have a Zarya to bubble you or McCree to flashbang, you'd just get melted. There were games where I would just wait to be over because I spent most of the time dead from Tracer eating my butt the entire time. It definitely was not fun to play against that. I'd just like to see more "I appreciate that you put in a lot of hours learning how to place your shield bash just right" the same as I go to that annoying as crap Tracer "I hate playing against you but I respect the fact that you put in a lot of work learning to blink at just the right time".
Personally my problem with their design (and most new heroes maybe excluding Sombra, Moira and Hammond) do too many different things, to the point where their functional concept was 100% overtaken by their "creative" concept, whereas older characters married both kinds of design quite neatly, with only very few exceptions. What I mean by that is that their kits do way too many different things that don't seem to be entirely related between each other. In the case of Brigitte, she's designed as a Paladin, so the shield and the healing make sense. The Stun and the Boop are meant to "reflect" Firestrike and Charge, but they are functionally much much better. She also can grant armor because she's an engineer, but that doesn't seem intrinsically related to her being a "paladin". A similar thing happens with Baptiste, where his main gimmick is Immo Field but everything else is disjointed in a way that ends up having him do TOO many different things (prevents death, aoe healing on CD, aoe healing on gun, good DPS, exo boots, damage boost on ult). Another big offender is Sigma, whose whole shtick is gravity manipulation, but then he has a shield (?!), matrix, rock, extra shields, etc. If you compare this to older hero design, you'll understand better why Baptiste and Brigitte are so widely disliked, and the reason the past year's metas have included post-release characters almost exclusively.
@@penrilfake But the older characters were the same way. Blizzard has stated that they come up with the general theme of a character first and then develop abilities first; sometimes that results in completely disjointed abilities that make no sense. For example, Mei: she's an ice-based character with slowing and freezing as her big theme. Cool. But where does shooting a high-speed sniping icicle come fit in that? Or healing yourself by freezing? Symmetra is supposed to be an Architect that builds things. Okay, turrets makes sense. But why teleportation? Why does she have a gun that levels up the longer its fired?
I like that idea mainly because then genji one tricks shall suffer. I don’t think the giving his jump pack that tiny nerf is really necessary tho and quite honestly he needs another buff. The buff I’d give him would either be an ultimate buff or something like removing sum of his hp but giving him more armor
I've always thought changing sigs kinetic grasp to refilling your shield health instead of giving him shield could help him become more of a main tank, instead of the dueler he is now. Maybe you could do something similar with refilling reins shield to make it more skill based, if its below a certain threshold, say like 400 hp, it regenerates quicker?
A global nerf to each role would be such a good change. High burst damage is required at this point to get through the increased sustain. However in order to stop being melted you need shields to prevent the insane damage. Lowering the scale of all these components would make resources such as shields, healing and damage way more meaningful.
idk if it was freedo or someone else but someone talked about mei having the possibility or being a tank if slightly reworked, and honestly thats a good mindset to look at tanks for diversity: if blizzard implements ideas like that into future tanks then diversity will shoot through the roof edit: it was BTC (Blame the Controller) that demonstrated a Mei tank rework
I really think it would be quite cool seeing a silver/gold/plat person in this chat too :) I do NOT think the game is majorly different between your high skill vs lower skill players but there definitely is a difference in how the game is played and perceived. Knowing how the GM's think and feel is great but it does not paint the whole picture :) SVB it is just something to think about if you want to have a more holistic debate. Super cool and interesting none the less
In case of Ball I still got something: I'd like to see his piledriver nerf gone. targets that got hit would not be able to jump aside (mid air) as fast anymore. Would make for more interessting pairings with other charakters for example Widowmaker and Roadhog wich both could land an easy headshot or hook on these targets.
I don't think he needs it. Widow synergy already exists - You can scoot one way, but AD strafing does nothing. Ball is great right now. Best designed and balanced Tank.
Great stuff from SVB as usual. Flats point about the lack of stimulus/positive feedback from the game for the tank role is so money. One of the main reasons OW is so fun & addictive is because of the visual/audio stimulus we get for making a play. That feedback loop feature of the game is really lacking for tanks.
I think DM pre range/CD nerf was fine, but what could have been done was giving her an indicator if it was low / depleted. It show up brighter when full, but fade away when depleted and maybe have sparks come out when its gone. That way DPS players can more properly time their abilities.
Completely agree with what you all said about Winston. He is OK in a nutshell but everything else got so OP that he can't really compete. Also he could become really opresive if you just buff his stats so my take on the matter is to add a secondary fire to him. That way you are not necesarily improving him in what he does but rather make him more versatile. What I thought could work is a electricity projectile similar to zarya's secondary fire but it does damage over time instead of burst damage. Also It should not be able to stack with Winstons primary fire damage (that would make winston a monster and he should not have more burst potential). Maybe this secondary fire has a cooldown so you cannot poke from distance all the time but this would allow winston to just put a little bit of pressure on the enemy team and static comps specially while he is waiting for his bubble.
An idea for brig is to reduce the hps of her packs to 20, however make it last the full coodldown of 6 seconds. Before they nerfed her, I considered overheal making the top 50 hp of a hero into armour rather than adding overall hp so that their effective hp increased, but not by much, just to protect them from dive, and another is that repair pack triggers inspire in the area in which the person she sends it to is. Since as is pointed out repeatedly, her burst healing is an issue. As for fortify, I feel like Ana is just as bad as brig or bap for how much sustain Orisa has with fortify.
This was great to watch, I was hoping for this after the support debate! Interesting discussion points for me were making tanking fun, teams picking around tanks and the niche of solo potential tanks like hog/ball. A dps debate would be interesting to see but tricky with so many heroes, maybe split it into two for hitscan and projectile?
This was one of the most interesting discussions about overwatch I have ever heard. I would love more content like this with other roles as well. This was fantastic.
I'm so conflicted with Winston's damage, it's so unbelievably frustrating trying to zap a pocketed target and they aren't even taking damage, but when they are grouped and you can cleave you can end up with damage medals. I love Flats' idea for him to bonus damage to electronics, but I'd add damage to shields as well. Or they could make it slightly increase the longer you zap a target, like 60 ramps to 80dps after 2 secs zapping the same target, and maybe give it a max up zapping 3-4 players at a time. And I agree with Forgiving that Winston's jump cool down should be closer to Dvas boosters.
My criticism is "electronics" is not an actual category in game. It's an abstract concept in a competitive Hero Shooter. Is Bastion an electronic? Echo? Only turrets + lamp? It's an unnecessary and unintuitive math problem. It's sloppy design and only belongs in a PvE environment.
@@libertyprime9307 Just swap "electronics" with "deployables". Torb/Sym turrets and Bap's immortality field, maybe possibly Ashe's B.O.B. would fall under this category.
@@NoriJun-kKj Even in that case, my issue is why do we have one hero doing more damage to a particular category of target? This is the only such case in the entire game. What design reason would there be for it? Sym turrets used to be 1HP, so really convenient for Winston to rip them down instantly. They buffed the HP implying it shouldn't be so easy for him.
@@libertyprime9307 Torb's molten core does extra damage to armor. Sombra's EMP, along with locking all abilities, destroys all shields (barriers, health). While a bit different, Symmetra shooting barriers with her primary fire actually refills her ammo instead of depleting it, most likely designed so Symmetra can counter shields. Blizzard is no stranger to targetting specific mechanics of the game, and I don't see why that can't be the case for Winston. Especially since dive theoretically counters bunker, it would make immortality field (which is what helps enable bunker comps in the first place) easier to counter.
@@NoriJun-kKj Destroying barriers and shields is the entire effect of EMP, it doesn't do base damage to one type of target and then modifier damage to a different target. "Blizzard is no stranger to targetting specific mechanics of the game" Targeting specific mechanics is obviously not what I'm talking about, that's very vague and of course that's the case. What doesn't exist is a category of target where damage is increased. Doing bonus damage to Armor is not unique since that's 1) inherently how Armor works, depending on damage per shot, and 2) Armor is a type of health resource rather than a target type such as deployables. At the end of the day this is subjective and we can't prove each other wrong. In my opinion Armor fulfills the function we're talking about because when you see that Yellow health bar, you know heroes like Tracer or Winston are doing less damage to it than someone like Rein or Pharah. It's fairly intuitive, while a specific hero doing more damage to a specific category of target is not intuitive in my opinion. This is the type of thing you'd add to a PvE mode such as in OW2 for flavor reasons. In the future it's likely we may see deployables used outside Bunker comps and then what? You'll either have to exclude some but not all of them from Winston's list, or he'll be OP against something he wasn't designed to. "Especially since dive theoretically counters bunker, it would make immortality field... easier to counter." So you think that the counter to Bunker should counter it even more than it already does?
Winston is a skill matchup with widow, he doesn't straight counter her. It's really easy to headshot him when he is jumping at/near you. The only "dive" hero that consistently counters widow is dva because of her uptime on dm, health, health and extreme mobility.
All Winston has to do is 180 to hide his head midair. But you're right it's not like a hard counter. Widow usually grapples away and then Winston has to leave. Or Winston can be zoned out from making the dive at all.
@@Smeik2901 He is a better counter up close. But he has to get close, Dva can deal with her from range (with dm) and has an easier and more consistent way of getting to widow.
In regards to how to give feedback to the tank player when they are doing something right when you eat an ult with DVA or Sigma they say “Denied!” And “Justice has embraced me!” Respectively and i find that super rewarding. Sure things like staying alive and taking space are harder to quanitfy but reinhardt taunting the other rein when you block his shatter would be a good first step in the feedback direction Edit: nvm you said it
That would also really help dps players, because if you're a dps player and one of your tanks has gold damage, you're gonna ba receiving shit from him and everyone else. So maybe something like being a distraction and taking off angles to apply pressure would give you medals, that would help
Here’s an actual hot take. Orissa is fun. Especially with her halt and I like the vibe of spamming a machine gun. Maybe if they increased its damage but lowered its ammo others would like it more.
You're absolutely correct, but we have the same 50/50 about who you're playing with compared to the compositions you're were getting in open que, not to mention locking the roles opened more of a path to creativity in a year than it did for the past 2 years. I have a lot of critique, but at the end of the day it's one of the best updates they put into the game in my opinion.
Agreed. I do not regret a day. I think it’s worth it if not for team reliability, then to make it easier for devs to balance and to commit to a role base design philosophy.
space ghost coast to coast I know it is but it’s not the main mode anymore and I’ve heard that due the the limited players the matchmaking is weird. But mainly it’s that my friends don’t really wanna play anymore and role lock was the final straw for them. I’ve asked them abt it and they said that they would return even if it was 2-2-2 if a major update came out. I hope overwatch 2 will boost overwatches popularity again because this game is amazing.
I think the Orisa problem from a fun perspective is 2 things: 1) her gun is the worst feeling thing in the entire game. Low impact + low skill + high capacity = firing a lot but feeling like it does nothing. 2) static/slow/poke comps are most boring. High commitment to engage is fun. Orisa enables boring play even if you win with it. Personally I would like an experimental with no move speed reduction from M1, more damage per shot but much less ammo, and like -50 Barrier HP.
timestamps: 1:32 Winston 18:55 Orisa 54:42 Discussing about burst damage 1:03:41 Tanks and coordination 1:11:57 D.va 1:14:20 Sigma and D.va 1:23:32 Roadhog 1:40:40 How to make tanks fun to play 1:59:34 Wrecking Ball 2:05:13 Reinhardt 2:32:20 Zarya 2:51:10 Conlcusions
The devs originally did not intend for every hero to be playable all the time. It was the player base constantly harassing them, telling them that x hero is useless and not fun in x scenario that caused the devs to change things. The reason heroes are no longer niche is the fault of the players, not the developers.
The point SVB made at 58:00 is why I gave up picking meta tanks at Plat. Because at Plat all meta really means is "the word players use to bully their tank (and sometimes support) teammates into picking the heroes they heard high level players use these days...but without ever considering picking the heroes that work with that tank combination, and without ever playing in the style that makes that combination work." It's really just a more acceptable version of "I'm only at this rank because [insert excuse here]". While also being blatant hypocrisy, since those players will usually pick whatever THEY want to play.
1:44:00 If anybody here has played Call of Duty, then you know about the medal system. In my opinion, I think this could work as a way to provide feedback. For example, going back to what Flats was saying, if a teammate gets a quad feed after you pulled a group of enemies as Orisa, then you would get a medal saying something along the lines of "Halt" or "Or where are you going?" With a little image of the pull on a medal or trophy. When you avenge a teammate in COD or even save them, you get a medal saying Saviour or Avenger. Medals like that could work not just for tanks, but for the other roles as well.
It's a little hard for me to explain without visuals, but I hope whoever is reading this can understand. Another example could be when you heal a teammate just enough for them to survive and beat whoever they were fighting you would get a medal called "Guardian Angel" or "You're not done yet" and if a player looks to see why or how they got that medal, they would get that explanation.
Naw I get it, COD has had this since COD4 at least, this would be fine by all account; I just wish that OW2 wasn't solely the reason for that change, they can do it now. I don't want to wait fucking who knows how long.
I'm a new player I'm still in bronze been playing about a month, and its so difficult to hear a good thorough conversation about overwatch that is good for all levels. This is single-handedly the best Overwatch conversation I've found online so far.
How do you make tanks fun? 1-3-2 role queue. Rework all the tanks. Making them as durable as 2 tanks in one. Try to balance them. Would be freaking fun. Would also solve the horrible queue time problem.
A shield tank that gets a stronger shield depending on how many shields the other team has. It would force them off of shields and now you have a crazy new tank. Many ways to define "stronger"
A tank that can disable shields A tank that can aoe slow people around him Rework Mei into a tank A tank that can throw in a mini disabling field. Like an mini EMP Bap lamp A tank that can lower the gravity of enemies and force them not to being able to jump, or else they float like in Lunar Give monkey a wall climb ability A tank that can eat the enemy ult charge. Like if the tank pops ult and the enemy team resets ult charge A tank that breaks apart in mid air and air strikes down, then recombines and has to get away A tank that can mitigate damage done to the team for a set period of time A shadow tank that has an ability to create a shadow to throw in as a dummy and for the enemy team to waste abilities A tank that can do jumps back and forth damaging people on leaps. Think tracer meets Winston meets hanzo That's what I thought of in 20 minutes.
Meta roulette would be terrible imo, simply because forced hard metas make non-meta mains simply quit the game until the meta changes, or just permanently. Better equalized balance should always be the goal, for maximum player retention over time. Using map or especially player controlled hero bans sounds like a much better route for a temporary artificial way to enable a larger variety of comps.
Here's a buff for DVa: Total DM reduced to 3 seconds, DM increased by 10 degrees (so wider than longer), micro missiles reduced by 25%, shotgun increased by 25%, DM now grants 2hp of shield to DVa for every 3point of damage absorbed times the number of allies around her in a 10 meter radius, shield lasting 3 seconds. The problem with DVa at her current state is survivability. She's never been a main tank, or even a complete solo tank like Hammond or hog. So she's best played when she's imbedded in her team and provide great peel. Since she doesn't bring a shield herself she's in danger of being blown up and staggered most of the time. Which is the most effected way to take a player out of the game bar none. They could keep micro missiles and shotguns where they are for damage but, maybe consider having bombs ultimate reduced, yes it's a wide area denial but it's also a skill shot style ultimate. At lowered level plays people will often just stand out in the open, at upper, multiple kills with bomb becomes rarer. IDK as a DVa player, she's hurting and may need a rework, that makes get viable for 2020+ level of play.
@@Smeik2901 You're absolutely correct, at the time I wrote this, Sigma was more dominate in the meta. Basically Sigma replaced DVas role in most play, and it seemed to me, that for DVa to be competitive, she needed to be like Sigma. Now, the meta has changed, and my attitude has changed with it. I want DVa to be unique and play into her strengths of course. Like any hero should. Currently her biggest obstacles are Sigma & Zarya. So until she can compete with these 2 giants, shes going to be a niche pick. Even in Dive, shes a niche pick, which is wild to me. Where Hammond (with a barrier that doesn't give ult charge) would take precedence. My thinking behind current over watch is that Tank DVa maybe should have shields instead of armor, or a combination of the 2, as to be thematic with all the other mechanical heros (like Zenyatta). Or/And have more Tank busting potential, since Tank DVa is shotgun hero. Which are generally Tank/Shield busters. That would give her more friction with Hog, although I think the Hog-DVa match up isn't particularly one-sided. As you can see its difficult to say how to make DVa both viable and unique in the current state of OW. And has largely been affected by nerfs the hardest since GOATs meta, along with Brigg. Which to me when 2/6 heros take the brunt of the entire post meta nerfs, it makes me question if blizzard is in the business of creating balance or creating metas. Anyways, if you have any suggestions, I'd like to hear it.
@@Orlando2914 I think D.Va's viability is largely dependent on Sigma right now. As you said Sigma mostly does D.Va's job and more, which is why Sigma needs to be changed more than D.Va herself. I think SIgma should only have one defensive ability, which would be his barrier. It is a unique ability and is what most think of, when they think about Sigma. That's why i want to have his Kinetic Grasp completely removed. It's basically just DM 1.0 - back when D.Va's matrix was on a ten second cooldown, instead of a resource meter - that grants you health, which doesn't seem to be that crazy, when you look at it as a single ability, but Sigma already has so much, that it stacks on top of everything else, making him too powerful for his own good. Getting rid of that makes it easier to balance D.Va and him simultaniously. Apart from that i think if they really wanted to buff her, then just give her the 15m Matrix back. Even if that doesn't make her a meta pick straight away again, it will leave her in a good enough spot for her to take a spot in a different meta.
I personally, as a diamond/master Orisa, think it would be cool if they reworked her fortify to act more like defense matrix or Moira heals. It would be an interesting experimental card at the least.
How to make tanking fun: I find that the most fun way to play tank is the "disruptive" playstyle instead of the "team support" playstyle. By which I mean aggressive DPS-tanking rather than being a shield bot. The most fun way to play Reinhardt is to keep charge and fire strike on cooldown and swing your hammer which works up to a certain rank. Getting deleted by dropping your shield is therefore the antithesis of fun tank play. More tanking should be done with messing up peoples target prioritization by being a huge threat. Less shielding and more raid boss. Currently, I'd say that a lot of DPS-heroes "generate more threat" than tanks. I hear "we have to deal with X hero" about DPS heroes more than about tank heroes. DPS heroes demand more attention than tank heroes rather then the other way around. It feels like the only reason tanks can take space is because of their large health pools and shields rather than demanding attention. Overwatch is an objective based game. The objective of the game is, simplified, getting tanks to the point and keeping them alive there. The game needs to embrace that fact rather than try to make it something else. The fun of tanking should be to be the raid boss. To do this damage, which is by the game's design the most rewarding to play, should be less about murdering everyone and more about supporting your team. Damage should not be allowed to be cyborg ninjas, cyberpunk hackers, catsuit snipers and the actual grim fucking reaper AND have fun doing MLG 360 nano-riptire into an earthshattered graviton AND have the medal system and reward mechanics designed around them AND be more of a threat to map control than tanks. I don't know how to balance the game to feel like that but someone else probably does. Other stuff: I had fun playing Orisa before role queue as an off-brand Reinhardt. I remember shield placement and aim mattering more, at least at the rank I played. Spammy bunker Orisa is very much not as fun as "Reinhardt with a gun". Whenever I get shattered I think "Shit, I messed up!" which means that it is one of the best abilities in the game because you know that your mistake was punished. Very few other abilities have that effect. So... nerfing it was unnecessary because it felt really fair. Not like anything in Doomfist's kit that punishes you for... existing?
Only thing I’ve ever had against shatter was how hard it was to deal with when not mirroring Rein. Blocking it as Winston or post Sheild nerf Sig or anyone else really was stressful. Other than it felt fair. A lot of the time it takes team follow up.
DMG heroes draw aggro if exposed because they are glass cannons. This isn't an MMO with taunts lol. If Tanks fail to take aggro, they are too passive. Good Tanks take turns rotating aggro in a sense. Rein in front with Barrier until it cracks > drop Barrier to take some damage to HP > Zarya bubbles him for charge > Rein falls back to cover for healing > Zarya soaks damage by contesting point and bodyblocking > Zarya bubbles self > Zarya falks back to cover and now Rein is full health, full barrier, goes back in front. Rinse/Repeat. Works for all Tank lines in various ways. If enemies ignore Tanks to focus DPS, Tanks are too passive or DPS are overextended.
@Liberty Prime Being an aggressive tank is fun. The problem is that due to tanks being deleted so easily you have three options: Be a shield bot, be passive or respawn. Playing damage is not only inherently fun. It's also even more fun at the cost of tanking being unfun.
xerxstirb nail on the head. It seems like tank and support either (boringly) dominate the meta or they end up being cows and sheep just for DPS to slaughter.
@@xerxstirb From my perspective, Tanks do not tend to get deleted in the neutral if they're playing well. I only really enjoy low time-to-kill games, like basically this, TF2 and Quake. And I think Overwatch is often too high sustain and recovery.
One thing I'll say is that Blizzard needs to produce official guides or something on what each role is for I say because I recently made a new account and placed DPS in gold, and the total lack of understanding on tanking from players there is genuinely shocking to me. Whether it's weird tank comps, wasting ults, failure to contest and waste time, failure to switch up their positioning, holding at exposed angles, no or poor comms, Orisa players shooting at long range and not pushing forward, the list goes on and on. I've found it very hard to consistently win games in gold because it just seems the majority of tank players at this rank just don't understand what tanking is supposed to provide for the team. It's very frustrating coming from diamond and masters, it feels like I need to be extra aggressive and make constant high risk plays for us to have a chance
I have an interesting idea for an Orisa rework that would make her much more fun and dramatically change double shield. Make her shield retractable like Sigma's, but only be able to take 400 or 350 damage. However this shield begins recharging faster after breaking or being retracted, and recharges about 1.5-2x as fast as Sigma's shield. Next change her health to 400 with only 100-150 of that being armor instead of the 250 current armor amount. The buffs she will receive to compensate for these changes are a new passive called gallop where she moves between 1.5-2x faster after not using any abilities, shooting, or taking damage for 5 seconds. Right now she feels unbearably slow and that is a big part of why she is considered the least fun to play. She also has a solid damage buff of maybe 20-35%, not sure exactly how much would be right here. Fortify will stay the same, it is meant to be a free escape from one potentially lethal situation like fade or ghost-wraith from Moira and Reaper. For Halt I have an idea for a replacement ability but I'm not sure how good the idea is. She activates a mode called "defense down" where she lowers her gun, sheds off a bit of her armor making her have a slightly smaller hit box, but leaves her with only 100 health, and no weapon drawn. To return to normal mode she hold down the same button and it takes maybe 2-3 seconds to bring her health back up and pull her weapon back up. The benefit to the ability is that while in this mode she moves between 3-5x her base speed (not the gallop speed). Her ultimate could also be replaced with something called "power surge" where she gets the speed of "defense down" without the drawbacks, the effects of fortify, and a further damage buff of about 10-15% but unlimited ammo clip size for the duration of the ultimate. A downside of the ultimate could be that she has to spend 3-5 seconds to enter the mode, vulnerable while entering it, or take 3-5 seconds to leave the mode at the end of it, or a smaller duration to both enter it and then leave it. The idea for this rework is to make her less of a defensive monster and far more of an offensive tank, which is generally considered more fun to play. With this rework she would be an assassin-like tank zooming around to find off angles and get picks similar to roadhog. She is much more fragile with less total health and much less armor and a much weaker shield, but she has far more mobility and more damage potential.
I've played about 350 hours solely on winston and I can confidently say that winston is the most balanced character in the game. And that's why I need to switch off him so much, ESPECIALLY on control maps since by round two you're being hard countered.
I also agree with Flats that a lot of players DO have some grasp on what's meta, but just refuse to play it. A couple games in low gold I suggested playing Zen/Brig on heals but no one agreed. It was only when I had a few friends playing with me that we made it work. But there's also the fact that, there's less versatility in lower ranks. Like sure people have hours upon hours on every tank but that doesn't mean they know how to use them correctly. In fact I know my Orisa isn't great bc I'm not combo-ing with anybody (unless I play with my friend who knows when to exploit my halts), but that's also because halt-combos weren't as common back before goats. If you played Orisa before goats (and a little bit after) halts were mostly used for solo environmental kills, and personally - I always used them to displace a charging Rein so he couldn't swing into my team as freely. I had the same feelings about D.Va during all the meta shifts in the past two years, when at first you would play her very aggressively during dive, only to play more passive in Rein/D.Va comps - basically babysitting your widow - and GOATS was literally non-existent in lower ranks, even high plat which was where I averaged at the time. Just because she was meta all that time doesn't mean every D.Va main was good in every meta. If you're not able to adapt your playstyle to the changing pace of the game, then it doesn't matter if you're on meta picks or not. So I think the general consensus in lower ranks, is to either not play meta because they don't like it, or not play meta because they're bad at it, and that's how you'll end up with some terrible Rein/Tracer/Moira fiasco on like Anubis or something.
If heals are overtuned then dpses are MASSIVELY overtuned. We are in an era when you die when flamestriking from the corner. Full hp to 0 in .5 sec. No shit we are use to play shields when devs are consistently pumping damage heroes over all proportions. Since they buffed mcree to a new Mcbastionree everything went downhill for tanks. When you have dps characters that can be fit multiple playstyles and are constantly dumbed down no shit tank will play something that can deal with that
A lot of the reason people don't play tank is because of the pressure to play certain tanks. Most players won't even play OW as a tank today if they are a Ball, Hog, Zarya, D.Va mains because they are just flamed for picking the hero they are best at! So why bother even queueing up!
Funny enough, a lot of initial issues with balancing came as a result of the devs trying to kill goats. To think that in the end they just gave up and added role lock, but left us with all these power crept heroes put the game in a really contradictory state. Even the last few heroes have kits that literally do everything; so to truly balance the game, would we bring the game back to pre goats numbers and then start nerfing the new heroes? At this point the global nerf route freedo advocates heavily is the only way to go imo.
I assume you're gonna be doing a DPS debate too, I'm curious how you'll separate them..because there are A LOT of DPS. Utillity, Snipers, Burst, Disruption (Sombra, Mei) Personally I wanna hear a discussion on Sombra and Mei that isn't just DELETE MEI! DELETE SOMBRA! REMOVE HACK! etc. a proper, measured discussion.
Or perhaps a trigger happy mercy-e-girl on twitch that wants nothing but the dps to be useless/or doesn't play them selves to know that point of view. Gotta remember all the roles have faults and many of them can overlap into each other, breaking things in general for average usage/game play. Frankly Widow/Hanzo are our only sniper characters and are legacy ones at that; for now they are just pub stomping characters if nothing else, I don't want them touched in a negative way as we have our tank equivalent aka Roadhog, I doubt they'd take them out of the game -- the dev even said they wanted to tone down the teamwork overall which is good would allow for other things to get done to achieve victory. Sombra is like special case dps dealer if say she gets a QoL change, it either makes or breaks it for everyone else not Pro, objectively speaking her kit is regulated to not being easy at all to use but problomatic going up against. Reaper is also here as well walking that line'd edge if another changes gets put in he's suddenly in every high rank game or down below despite dozens of guides showing solid examples of how to shutdown Reaper pretty much all the time. Even in my low rank I full understood this and I stopped playing ranked ages ago. Mei... ah man fun to piss people off, terrible to go up against -- they could do the tank change to her but we'd need to see that ala the Experimental Card first then I'd get my thoughts. For now its up in the air, freezing itself would need to get reduced, the range of the freeze is getting reduced, the slow getting reduced, etc etc.
For me the issue with Sombra and Mei is that what makes them unique makes them to strong of options when compare to the other damage characters. No other damage character has the cc of Mei or the disruption of Sombra. Thus they have to be niche because the ultility stacking they provide would be too overbearing. The only way to keep them unique would be to put them in more fitting roles like tank and support. Mei for instance could be a tank and her cc would then compete with the other tank options. Sombra as a support would have her utility compete with the other buffs and debuffs effects of the support line up.
This was great! I recently got back into overwatch and the playstyle feels almost completely different- Ashe/mercy dmg boost combos and invulnerable Orisas hiding behind an Ana feel generally lame to play against. 90% of the game -as a tank- feels like you're relying on your dps to kill something, otherwise it's just "who has better shield burners". Then it turns out into an all out brawl. Great video, really pulled some of if not the best people to contribute, keep it up!
I see nothing wrong with Brig killing Rein while using her ult and getting heals. The Rein still could have won by simply charging her in that room. Also, Bap still has the lowest support winrate across all ranks; and one of the lowest hero winrates in general. You really can't justify more nerfs on him to make Orissa weaker when she still has a fair winrate and he doesn't.
Thank you for this Someone needed to say this And of course an Ulting Brig and a Baptiste are going to be a single Rein. That's not exactly surprising.
The idea that "team play begins at low masters" (around 1:05:00) is SUPER troubling. It means that most people aren't even playing the game the way it was designed, but it also makes me think there needs to be some kind of in-built teaching mode in OW to correct this. Also, I think you get people in Gold/Plat who WANT to team play, but simply don't know how. There's no objective knowledge/authority that everyone can reference. This is a problem of education.
I agree with flats on the rock, paper, scissor idea. Causing the players to decide whether their individual/team skill can out match their opponents advantage or swap to them having the advantage.
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Was a pleasure talking with you guys, thanks for having me on again ❤️
8:43 is the first signs of life
What if Winston damaged shield and HP before damage registered for armor?
Or have his tesla cannon have bonus damage against shield HP?
I think an interaction like this could help against sigma an orisa. Have his cannon be more efficient at stripping shield but also have it damage the HP/shield to first. He has too much damage reduction against armor. This would be a good buff for him. And help enable the dive.
That way, a coordinated attack is worth it. Have someone burst the armor while Winston damaged the real hp
The F squad (freedom, flats, forgiving)
Thx man I really love your vids keep it up👍🏻
Hi dadgiving
"Tank is one of the roles where people most expect you to pick X tank but will not pick the heroes around that tank's comp." YES this exactly! I think this is almost entirely what makes tank frustrating to me, is all the players who feel entitled to a tank they're used to or they've seen on OWL but they themselves are a bad Tracer main and will not switch.
Either that or you pick hoping to synergize with another pick, and then they completely ignore your plays.
It’s a pity, as a support main I personally think tanks should be the anchor in the rest of the team’s hero choices.
Jemma Scott true. Dps picks are interchangeable in dive or rush or poke, but tanks define the meta
This and there's one maybe two feasible tank comps that pair together. Teammate locks zarya, you gotta go Reinhardt, etc. It feels kinda bad that your other tank dictates who you'll play when they selfishly instalock, meanwhile your team demands a tank that their DPS or healer doesn't even work well with.
@@jemmascott5559 Would be nice but I always found myself waiting to see what everyone else picked before I picked a tank haha! Needless to say I think I'm done with solo queues. Find a group isn't perfect but at least it can help find people who are more on a similar page at the very least.
i agree with the shield problem, people are way too dependent on shields and has completely forgotten the way of playing without a main shield, which is terrible for someone who really enjoyed dive in year 1 of overwatch
Ngl I think sustain is more of a problem than shields.
Played Ball with a dps friend, he told me that the reason he couldn't hit shots consistently is because he didn't have a MT. When I pointed out that he actually had one , he told me that he needed a SHIELD, because he was getting pressured constantly. I found that hard to be believe since I was harassing the backline on every engage and 9 times out of 10, 3 players from the opposing team were focused on me. Shield is good but not mandatory
Players are too dependant on shields and heals. So a lot of players blame shields or heals for dying, instead of positioning better.
One of the things that I've combated people with if I'm ever playing ball specifically because I'm not getting any assistance as a main tank is that people need to use natural cover, and position themselves better.
"Bro, you're a Winston main? Fucking cringe"
-Angry Mccree who keeps peeking for no reason
It's entertaining to me that Freedo always sounds like he's dropping some guide knowledge and pro tips, even when he's just regularly speaking xD
we've just been conditioned for so long hahah
I always thought his name was burrito
Visdormr Hjarta He doesn't really know shit about the state of the game he just talks like he does constantly
Ikr lmao
@@sideeswipe Its kinda of annoying that he will talk half of the time when he's the person with the least useful input. This is the 3rd(?) video and I honestly hope he's not in the next one.
I really like the Winston-does-more-dmg-to-electronics idea; Torb turrets behind multiple shields are incredibly frustrating to deal with.
It's a dumb idea. The concept of arbitrarily buffing his DMG against only electronics is something you'd do for flavor in like a single player game. That shit has no place in competitive hero shooter.
@@libertyprime9307 Stuns have no place in a shooter either but here we are in 2020 where every game has one
@@athing8523 I would only agree if we're talking about a pure shooter rather than an ability-based one.
Stuns done well are a necessary and skillful counter to interrupt certain abilities.
"electronics" is an abstract concept people are imagining as a mechanic. Are Echo & Bastion electronics? Just turrets?
Let's say just turrets. Why would Winston get a buff against turrets only? Nothing else in game works that way.
There isn't some hero who does extra damage but only against Barriers, or only against Shield, or only against flankers. This is needless complexity with no apparent benefit.
If Bap lamp needs nerfed then just nerf it. Winston already cleaves that thing through barriers and therefore kills it better than most Tanks.
@@libertyprime9307 Emp only deletes shield health, molten core only does extra damage to armor, symmetra only gets free ammo off of shields. Emp and hack do not effect bastion or echo differently from anyone else so your electronic argument is already gone.
@@libertyprime9307 Also my argument has nothing to do with bap lamp. i think bap lamp is in a fine spot if not it deserves of a slight buff with a slight nerf to his damage.
Flats comment on the need for reinforcing feedback for playing the role well/making appropriate plays is 1000% on point for so many reasons.
FAAAAAAAAAAAAAACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is a really exciting idea! I think shooters offer me an incredibly polished, refined UI feedback to make DPS characters *feel* good, especially when I get a kill. I'd LOVE to feel that dopamine squirt for tanks and supports when I do the OPPOSITE of kill someone
Obligatory link to Ster's suggestions along the same lines, complete with edited example: ruclips.net/video/gVwKsjx1NUg/видео.html
never fails to make me laugh
@@GrammarHoodie I actually recently got a "Lifesaver" highlight on Zarya. I absolutely should get way more of those highlights, maybe even POTGs with it. Blizzard could easily add that into the game, with a "close call" or "lifesaver" notification, or both. The "close call" notification might encourage too much risk, but on the other hand if you got that notification every time a Widow missed, it would encourage good movement, higher APM, and more fun play styles.
The thumbnail art continues to be awesome
Definitely one I spent ages making 😅 Glad you like!
Some of you have said you would really like it in a print or tee form. For anyone interested, DM me on Discord at SVB#9838 or email me at svboverwatch@gmail.com and I'm working on a way to get that to be a reality! :)
That Rein shatter nerf was honestly completely unwarranted, and kinda felt like the devs wanted SigOrisa to be the absolute best choice in every situation. It made no sense to me at all.
I know they wanted to lessen the amount of CC in the game but nobody was complaining about shatter, if you got shattered you usually weren’t raging because of it
If you shatter, if you want kills you have to have immediate follow up or cooldowns ready
CTCEcho I would only when I am no where near it and it still hits me or when I’m in high ground and it hits me it’s called earth shatter for a reason and it shouldn’t go above the ground that much
Im a Rein main and the reason why they nerfed shatter was because rein could 1v6 everyone with shatter cause it shattered you for a decade. The nerfed shatter should now be used more with the team.
Same for the shield nerf. Closing open space with no cover is so difficult against a spam damage comp because your shield drains so quickly
playing rein has sucked recently, i've been really feeling the burst damage. in lower ranks genji can just jump past your shield and spam right clicks at you while your team spams their shield and wonders why you can't do anything.
(Support main here)
Yeah I don’t know what it is but Rein seems like he’s getting burned down so quickly.
It really feels like the Rein has to be so on his game more so now than ever. I think Lucio being less meta definitely adds.
Yeah agreed my main is rein but lately I switched to sigma and I'm having more success
Same bro, gotta play Winston
This is why I don’t like playing Rein; I prefer to play off-tanks since they tend to have more control over the result of the game.
Same. The second I drop my shield to swing a few times at the enemy rein I lose like 300 hp in a snap and since it’s lower ranks the supports are unpredictable. It can be an Ana and a moira(great heals) or a fucking mercy and a Lucio(actually 0 healing) meaning I have no choice but to fall back so the enemy rein dont swing at me giving the enemy an incredible amount of space to play with. And yea, I think part of the problem is that genji can push out 90+ dmg every second then gain like 12 ult charge from every 3 or 4 shurikens hit. Actually busted
Some dude yelled at me saying winston isn't a main tank😂🤦🏾♀️
Someone on my team said that Ana wasn’t a main healer and wanted a mercy instead 😂WE NEED MORE HEALS
@@sandman616 I'm on console and your average plat ana isn't a main healer, but once I hit diamond and got into low masters games I started to see
Same with Winston, he's a feed machine if you don't play him right, and lower ranks don't usually know how to play him, I love playing with a good Winston lol
@@Gibbypastrami A good Winston needs a good team who doesn't peek at choke points...
Also a lot of teammates think Primal is an ult where you get a 6k easily so nobody tries to help you securing kills and nobody heals you lol
@@sandman616 Plat and below believe that mercy is not only a main healer, but the most healing of all. I reached GM with 0 hours on mercy cause it's no fun to pocket heal.
Jacob Vollmer for real tho. It’s usually dps mains which I’m not knocking on but they’ll be the first to tell you to switch hero’s and be the last to switch off what they play. One time we had a rian zarya brawl comp and this dude had the audacity to play bastion. Like bro it’s kings row let me have fun for once with brawl instead of double shield which is also questionable why he would choose bastion but anyways supports and tanks always got each other
Super excited to be secretly watching this while pretending to be working.
I haven't seen much talk about Flats' point of adding more feedback to tanks to make them more rewarding and fun, but in my opinion one of the characters that does this the best is Zarya.
You know you're doing something right on Zarya when you bubble a teammate and get that charge because of the bubble sounds. For me it's one of the most satisfying sounds in the game, that beautiful ramp-up and the numbers going up, combined with your beam getting bigger and louder. Purely on visual and sound design alone, I can tell that I'm doing things right on Zarya, and that's why she's my main and so insanely fun to me.
More characters need that. If a similar sound was made when Rein is blocking a lot of damage or Dva eats an ultimate or something, it really would do a lot to improve how good tanks feel to play, hopefully drawing more people to them.
Player9 did you copy and paste this from the pod cast? They talked about this lol, but yea totally agree.
Dva makes a specific sound if you eat Ults I'm pretty sure it's just pretty quite but I hear the same sound every single time I eat those juicy tracer bombs gravs blizzards and dragons
And I don't really hear it other times
The thing with having that on rein compared to zarya is that zaryas entire kit is based around her charge. If you have high charge you're doing good 90% of the time but with rein blocking dmg doesn't necessarily mean you're doing good and giving that play positive feedback could lead to players developing bad habits. I do agree with what you're saying in terms of concept but it's going to be quite difficult to implement in a way that isn't detrimental as none of the other tanks gameplay is almost entirely built of one statistic.
@@denim9475 what I think they could do, very easily, is implement a lifesaver notification. Something where every time you body block or shield someone who would have died if you hadn't been there, you get a notification. Blizzard could do that very easily, I think, because I've gotten a Lifesaver highlight on Zarya where the whole play was me holding down m1 on nothing in particular, but 3 of my bubbles saved a teammate.
The medal system needs to change. About the feedback from the game, if you play Rein and you block the enemy Rein's shatter, that should register in the game as a job well done. Other hero specific interactions should be outlined in a new and improved reward system. Maybe even make it an actual reward system that will give bonus xp and therefore larger chance of getting more loot boxes.
Honectly just adding a mocking voiceline similar to when Dva or Sig eat ults and mb some more "on fire" points would be fine.
well that wont be as straightforward
for example suppose youre on the edge of enemy rein's shatter range and you block it for yourself but your teammates who are a bit to the other side will get shattered.
It's hard to gauge how well you performed there. Was it your teammates faults for not standing behind you? Or were you out of position?
@@wren4077 To make it straightforward, you ulting your counterpart whilst they still have ultimate should give you more points or whatever, simple as that, and it's a great performance to dodge from Rein's shatter range, and anybody who got caught beyond the shield is a fucking idiot, the problem is you now need those idiots to be on the poin, they're dead and you're not, "Don't be correct, be smart."
1. the medal system doesn't need to change. Player mindset about medals needs to change (i.e. ignore them).
2. Blocking a Shatter doesn't necessarily have any impact, it's scenario-dependent. There is no way this game will ever track individual performance accurately in-match. Too abstract.
@@libertyprime9307 yea these plays are very abstract concepts to track . Like something as basic as a mei walling off a rein from his team is too complicated to be quantified.
The mentality of relying on medals just needs to go away.
the shatter nerf was really really bad, it's the last cc anyone would want nerfed
Playing Reinhardt feels a lot less impactful now. 😔
They nerfed ana sleep and shatter (two skill shot abilities) but didn’t nerf sheildbash
@@lincolnchildress6539 Shieldbash is not a problem imo. The bigger problem is doom, who is a walking cc, that didn't get touched
Shype you have to be low level, uncoordinated idiot to lose to a doom fist. One of the most easily countered hero’s in the game
Lee McDonald I’m saying it’s a low skill, night impact ability. Where as shatter is a high skill, high impact ability. One should be better than the other
I've never wanted anything in the game more than Winston doing more damage to deployables. Not only is that accurate to his character and complements his kit, it just sounds super cool!
We need more characters with unique interactions like that.
I absolutely love Flats perspective on knowing when you do something correctly and getting rewarded for it. Everyone knows the feeling of being the key person in a pivotal part of a match but there's no credit given. Very few people notice at all.
This is like a group project where everyone did their job
I'd like to see Winston get jump pack reset on elim like genji just to see what itd be like i know practically it'd probably be to much but it could be fun for giggles
Maybe a cooldown reduction, but not a reset
I would love to see that in the lab
That would be a fun game mode. Every time you kill something, your cooldowns reduce or you get some other buff
That would be so broken, but I am all for it
I would love to see montages of winstons jumping 6 times in a row and getting a teamkill lmaooo
As a lower rank player, a lot of what was brought up definitely affects us.
People are too used to sustain/shields instead of positioning + timing (myself included). It's a coin flip sometimes though. I can constantly get 3-4 man Ana nades, but swapping to Bap with raw healing + shield break gets us better pushes/wins. Some games are the opposite where sustain does nothing, so I go for more aggro support play and we have a better game.
Tank wise, if Hog is in the line up (which happens too much, maybe they don't trust healers or dps), it becomes infinitely harder. You need your solo tank to push in to make space (with the shield nerfs, only Rein can make that happen if it's a slow map; maps with high ground might work with Winston/Ball assuming they don't go in 1v3 and die), you have to pray Hog either uses cover or plays around the main tank and gets hooks/good pressure. More often than not, he's just afk in chokes letting the other team farm ults that your team cannot prepare for because you have no space, you have no kills, and nobody can live because neither tank can/will deal with whoever's on the backline or whoever's spamming out your team. Hog definitely can be good, especially against hard dive/flank comps, but if you're Hog isn't doing that, the other team gets value for him existing lol.
Flats had a really good point with tanking, there's no good way for tanks to actually know that they're tanking well. You can do everything right, but it feels awful (Rein/Winston pushes in to give his team space, he gets melted. His team might win the fight, but he wasn't there for it). That's a huge part of why lower rank players go for Hog/Ball over the more team play oriented tanks.
Agreed.
Somthing you have not talked about is low ranks plat under people yell at a rein for swingeing so all a rein does is hold sheilds
About cancelling Rein's charge, I think a good compromise would be to add a "braking state", so when you cancel charge you don't immediately stop, but still have to travel some distance based on how long you have waited to cancel it. Also, when hitting enemies in this state you coud boop then. i think that with this it would still punish you if you didn't time it right, and would open up possibilities for skillful use.
Just giving Rein a bit more mobility would be nice. Then, we can nerf Lucio without having to worry about Rein's viability.
Well, i think that what we could do is have rein mirror his cinematic. Ironically lore wise it would be a step back for his character, but gameplay wise him somewhat drifting around like he does may be somethkng fun
I perceive the reason that people are dependent on shields is because, especially on ladder, shields allow you to make mistakes and not get punished as heavily. Dive comps only work because you are forcing enemies to make mistakes because of the quick nature of how "Dive" works and the fact that it is a focus down type comp. Shield tanks are a comfort zone for most, and as a dps player myself I do inherently make mistakes and cowering behind a shield is what is normal. If you don't have any kind of shield whatsoever it's harder to push onto enemies cause you aren't allowed to make mistakes. It's one of the key reasons why "hog and ball torture" is just that, torture. People don't know how to play against an opponent without shields, if so then not well.
Just don't cower 4head
wade patten haha
To touch on that point, people don't realize how you can punish this over-reliance on shields. A very fun trick to do with Ball is to knock just the main tank around and have everyone try to focus you. If they tunnel vision and forget to take natural cover, the dps on your team should easily be able to land shots on the enemy squishies.
You can apply this concept while playing Rein or Orisa by moving the main tank to a spot where they don't want to be using the hammer or Halt. It won't be immediately obvious why they're losing and that's the point.
@Gaussian Entity
Ball into double Barrier is pretty trash in solo queue environment unless you have a Zarya or Dva covering you.
Halt + Accretion and Ball dies every time. Also Zen meta, so discorded too.
what mistakes? As a hitscan DPS player I feel like if we have no shields on anubis or volskaya 1st point and I peek for a second , i get deleted by the junkrat/pharah/bastion/torb/sym spamming through the choke. even worse if they have shields. I really don't like playing flankers but that seems like the only solution sometimes
My biggest issue as a tank main is feeling like I have agency. There are certain matchups, say against Reaper, where I feel like I can't do much to help myself or my team, it'd be great if we could get more options and tools. In the Reaper example, perhaps we could have a flying tank to hover above reapers effective range but they'd have a huge cockpit head hit box to be picked apart by snipers, but then tanks could swap Winston to deal with snipers and then the cycle would repeat.
This One is way better than "the great healing debate" because u can see who is talking and also see some reactions to some points.
I love this format. Keep it up! :)
"Other hero's need to be brought down to match the reasonably balanced heroes"
This is the design direction Blizz should follow for ALL future patches. No more power creep! OP DPS is the reason we have too much healing, because anyone can get deleted at a moments notice, nerf the strongest dps, and then we can tone down some healing, and then tanks will feel better to play, since they aren't getting deleted, but aren't immortal either.
I think healing should be toned down, not because I think "fuck healers" but because supports aren't supposed to be healers at all. Back in the early days of OW best healing pair was Mercy/Lucio. We still got along fine back then. I understand that there is a lot of burst now, but heroes like Tracer and Widow were virtually untouched. Like yeah you could 1 clip someone, but Zen (who was the one you'd 1 clip back then) would just fight back. If he was unaware he died, if he was diligent he had a fighting chance. Supports should be characters who do just that, support a play style. Ana should be a sniper who can ALSO heal, but really wants to just sniper people whether they are enemies are allies. Make her do 95 damage a shot both heals and damage, but make her fire slower and give her a clip of 6 (like a bolt action sniper). Her healing would suffer, but when you snipe your genji doing backflips, he is fine after 1 shot most likely and takes that duel handedly. Tanks should be vying for positioning and heals should be able to refill their health when in a safe position, but not sustain them through an entire fight. I think changes to tanks are necessary too so that we can blur the lines between MT and off tank. Make Reinhardt more reliable by himself, but nerf his staying power a bit too. Like more tanks should feel like Sigma, able to take space effectively, but not really able to just shield a choke for years on end. make Rein's shield weaker (like 1000 hp), but take away the speed penalty for example. Make damage more sticky, then lets look at burst. Think about it this way, burst damage is burst damage whether you have full health or half health right? The changes to burst doesn't really matter where as the changing to healing effects the way the game is played right now.
Name one op DPS pls. Genji aside, since he was buffed especially to be able to dps through all the healing.
Stock Ashe is amazing on ladder because she just spams dynamite and outdamages everyone else.
It's the tanks who have OP damage. However, Widow, Ashe, Junk, Echo, Doom, Hanzo, Genji, Tracer... also contribute to the burst damage that you're experiencing. The spam meta in general needs to go away, and then we can tune the healing. DPS can't "carry" like tanks can, and never really have been able to, but it's hard to ignore many DPS's high burst potential.
There is no OP dps... supports and tanks out damage dps how fucking delusional tank/support players are thinking dps shouldn’t be able to one tap/do high damage
1:44:10 The game that figured this out was Halo 5: Guardians. They had a bunch of medals for assist, staying alive, being a distraction, ect. If Overwatch got rid of the generic "on fire" system and coded in medals (maybe for using barriers on abilities like sleep or nade, taking a lot of damage and getting back to full hp, a clear medal for offensive assist with nade or pull, ect), you'd have a lot more tangible positive feedback.
Ooh. Flats gave a good opening into another video, how to play dive properly!
So exited to see Forgiving and Flats and, of course, Freedo. Love your videos.
Solid squad here. Loved that you got Flats on here...that man had some solid takes I hadn't thought of
FAAAAAACTS!!!!!! He really got me when he said we had rein dva meta for 3 weeks and it immediately got nerfed but we were ok with double shield for 3 months?
i really hope devs will watch those and listen to the feedback
Twoneis They didn't listen to feedback for 4 years, they aren't gonna start now
HAHA you’re joking right
Same
This was an awesome conversation. As a newly returning player, I feel like I have a much better understanding of the current state of things.
One suggestion I really liked was your idea about needing to earn their shields back. I'm not too sure how it would work with the main tanks, but I think it could balance Sigma really well. What if his shield regenerated much slower.... like REALLY slow... basically just between team fights. But then his Kinetic Grasp would first recharge his shield (if recalled) to full before applying the temp shields to Sigma's HP. This would allow Sigma to still utilize both of them at the start of a fight, but it would also allow for a team to cut through his sustain by breaking his shield and then not feeding his grasp.
This, but you may have to lower the cooldown time of kinetic grasp
Tank is by far my best role and is also my least favorite :) I hate that.
I'm the other way around haha, I want tank to be my best but it's my lowest sr 😅
@@zak9463 tank is arguably the hardest role, which is one of the reasons why its my favorite.
Tank is the most impactful, but NOT the hardest.
@@AdderallAscension yea. Its easy to start and play. But once you realise all the things you have to do so your team can thrive is what makes it frustrating cus you can play everything right and in the end its still up to your team to follow up on the position/space you provide them.
Bruh same tho
You can nerf IF by making the minimum hp of a hero in its range drop from 20% to something lower, or maybe even have it linear to the disc's hp, so if i didnt kill the field, but i dropped it to 50%, the heroes in it can drop down to 10%
i feel like if its not possible to make everyone equally playable all the time, just lean into the "different maps and map parts are best for different comps and heroes" type of thing. and tbh, in soloqueue in most elos, this is the case. i dont really think this game can achieve a pro level balance where there isnt one dominant comp of 6 heroes for the majority of the maps. but atleast i think the overall powercreep could go down so the effects of any meta are not quite as bad and can be finetuned more. overwatch is like that hype dubstep track that just has too much of every instrument. it can be fun and hype, but listen to too much of it, and it will get annoying very fast. overwatch needs some more subtle balance. some dynamic balance and not "add more spice if its too sweet, oh now its too dull add more salt now". at some point you will have to throw away the monster you created and start over with some careful reverse engeneering.
It might be possible but until we get a map editor, we won't get true diversity in maps. Blizzard maps in different games have had their charm and experience but they have severely lacked in bringing diversity. And the ones that do bring diversity (Horizon, Paris) are mostly hated because they feel TOO different.
@@GaussianEntity i dont really think they are hated because they are different. i just feel they are frustrating to play on while STILL being the exact same formula of every 2cp map before. notice how only the new 2cp maps are hated. 2cp is the most disliked game mode as is and those 2 new 2cp maps are just a tad more furstrating to play on than the other ones. tbh i still think attacking on hanamura second can be an absolute nightmare, and i dont really like any 2cp map because the chokes tend to be so easily defendable, and then theres this stalling the point war on all of them. i think only volskaya does that right.
2CP was simply a mistake. Ideally this "Push" (iirc) coming OW2 will replace 2CP, retiring it to the Arcade modes.
I highly doubt it though.
@@libertyprime9307 Naw, the real problem is Blizzard isn't willing to take a look at the workshop game modes more, why don't we have a multi-capture zone. We know that they wanted to rework 2CP and honestly take it out of the game but keep the maps for something else perhaps.
Some of you have said you really like the thumbnail art (thank you!) and would really like it in a print or tee form so here's the link to that now: www.redbubble.com/shop/ap/53628293
And timestamps:
00:00 - Introduction
01:25 - Winston
18:55 - Orisa
35:15 - Should 'fun' be taken into account when balancing?
51:05 - Is there too much burst damage now?
58:35 - Does No One Play Around Tanks?
1:11:40 - DVa (& also Sigma)
1:23:05 - Roadhog
1:39:40 - How To Make Tanks Fun Again
1:58:15 - Wrecking Ball
2:05:13 - Reinhardt
2:32:10 - Zarya
2:36:17 - Concluding Thoughts
I don't agree with the statement "we can all agree we hate Brig and Bap."
I dont hate them at all, I just think they are poorly balanced. Maybe you hate them because of immortality field and CC but that's your opinion. There's a hive mind culture among people that consume overwatch content or play in high ranks, but many of my more casual friends actually really like these heroes and enjoy playing them.
I personally play in masters, so I understand the issues you're talking about, but there's often a disconnect between the opinions in our ranks and a large part of the player base that doesn't religiously consume overwatch content on RUclips.
Your comment is entirely too understanding and productive to be on RUclips. Maybe some of us support players enjoy having Brig around because we spent years getting melted by Dive and having a bit of peel that actually pays attention to the other support(s) is kind of nice to have.
@@noahbrinkman4216 If that's true, then I challenge any Master or GM player to let a Plat or below player use their account for 100 games and pick only Moira, Brig or Bap. If these characters get value simply "for existing', then after 100 games, they won't lose much SR, right?
I don't disagree with the fact that WHEN PLAYED WELL, these characters change the game simply by existing. But that's what support players (and other high-utility characters) are SUPPOSED to do. Lucio completely changes the game simply by existing due to his speed boost. Mercy changes the game by existing due to Rez. Zen enabled the high-damage strategies of Dive and GOATS simply by existing. If anything, among the supports Ana is an exception rather than the rule.
It's part of the whole reason why this game I genuinely enjoy is growing more and more difficult to have fun with. The "good" people go "X hero gets value from existing", but when I look at every kit of all the heroes, they all take some sort of skill to use. Brigitte's shield slam is rather short range and the stun is less than a second. And her AoE heal requires her to be in melee to work. So if the other team plays at range, she gets little value.
The reason why I liked OP's comment about group think is that once something is deemed "broken" or "op", it's just understood to be that. Like that clip they showed of Brigitte beating that Rein in a duel. Why should a solo Rein be able to kill her when she's both using her ultimate AND being healed by the other healer?
I'd love the various 'groups' to appreciate the actual amount of practice and work it takes to play all the heroes and not just the ones people grant the title of "skill hero" to play. I know that Mercy is an easier hero to play, but you can feel how awful it is when your Mercy is bad at playing Mercy. Or people saying "X hero is not fun to play against". I don't mind playing against Brigitte at all. I think playing against Hamster, Tracer, and Genji is the worst. I hate playing against them, especially when Overwatch was young and if you didn't have a Zarya to bubble you or McCree to flashbang, you'd just get melted. There were games where I would just wait to be over because I spent most of the time dead from Tracer eating my butt the entire time. It definitely was not fun to play against that.
I'd just like to see more "I appreciate that you put in a lot of hours learning how to place your shield bash just right" the same as I go to that annoying as crap Tracer "I hate playing against you but I respect the fact that you put in a lot of work learning to blink at just the right time".
Personally my problem with their design (and most new heroes maybe excluding Sombra, Moira and Hammond) do too many different things, to the point where their functional concept was 100% overtaken by their "creative" concept, whereas older characters married both kinds of design quite neatly, with only very few exceptions.
What I mean by that is that their kits do way too many different things that don't seem to be entirely related between each other. In the case of Brigitte, she's designed as a Paladin, so the shield and the healing make sense. The Stun and the Boop are meant to "reflect" Firestrike and Charge, but they are functionally much much better. She also can grant armor because she's an engineer, but that doesn't seem intrinsically related to her being a "paladin".
A similar thing happens with Baptiste, where his main gimmick is Immo Field but everything else is disjointed in a way that ends up having him do TOO many different things (prevents death, aoe healing on CD, aoe healing on gun, good DPS, exo boots, damage boost on ult).
Another big offender is Sigma, whose whole shtick is gravity manipulation, but then he has a shield (?!), matrix, rock, extra shields, etc.
If you compare this to older hero design, you'll understand better why Baptiste and Brigitte are so widely disliked, and the reason the past year's metas have included post-release characters almost exclusively.
@@penrilfake But the older characters were the same way. Blizzard has stated that they come up with the general theme of a character first and then develop abilities first; sometimes that results in completely disjointed abilities that make no sense. For example, Mei: she's an ice-based character with slowing and freezing as her big theme. Cool. But where does shooting a high-speed sniping icicle come fit in that? Or healing yourself by freezing?
Symmetra is supposed to be an Architect that builds things. Okay, turrets makes sense. But why teleportation? Why does she have a gun that levels up the longer its fired?
I fell like Winston needs a small damage buff to his Tesla cannon and maybe when he gets a kill his jump pack cool down goes down a few seconds
Winston is fine mostly, nerfing other hero's first would be something I would like to see.
If they do not solve the “effective HEalth” problem it will never be good again
I like that idea mainly because then genji one tricks shall suffer. I don’t think the giving his jump pack that tiny nerf is really necessary tho and quite honestly he needs another buff. The buff I’d give him would either be an ultimate buff or something like removing sum of his hp but giving him more armor
That will encourage a dps playstyle and doesn't solve the problem.
I want winston to get the genji treatment too; let's do it!
I've always thought changing sigs kinetic grasp to refilling your shield health instead of giving him shield could help him become more of a main tank, instead of the dueler he is now. Maybe you could do something similar with refilling reins shield to make it more skill based, if its below a certain threshold, say like 400 hp, it regenerates quicker?
A global nerf to each role would be such a good change.
High burst damage is required at this point to get through the increased sustain. However in order to stop being melted you need shields to prevent the insane damage.
Lowering the scale of all these components would make resources such as shields, healing and damage way more meaningful.
idk if it was freedo or someone else but someone talked about mei having the possibility or being a tank if slightly reworked, and honestly thats a good mindset to look at tanks for diversity: if blizzard implements ideas like that into future tanks then diversity will shoot through the roof
edit: it was BTC (Blame the Controller) that demonstrated a Mei tank rework
And it was cool
I really think it would be quite cool seeing a silver/gold/plat person in this chat too :) I do NOT think the game is majorly different between your high skill vs lower skill players but there definitely is a difference in how the game is played and perceived. Knowing how the GM's think and feel is great but it does not paint the whole picture :) SVB it is just something to think about if you want to have a more holistic debate.
Super cool and interesting none the less
The Ball/Hog duo has to be the Ball and Chain.
Parlora Hog and Ball torture
Hog and ball torture
I think giving Winston one primal slap on cooldown on M2 would be pretty interesting
The Tank icons arent the same size and the roadhog one especially is bugging me
Also the border around Sigma is the only one not glowing / being blurred.
I can’t unsee it!!!
So? Thats some whiny baby shit
In case of Ball I still got something: I'd like to see his piledriver nerf gone. targets that got hit would not be able to jump aside (mid air) as fast anymore. Would make for more interessting pairings with other charakters for example Widowmaker and Roadhog wich both could land an easy headshot or hook on these targets.
I don't think he needs it. Widow synergy already exists - You can scoot one way, but AD strafing does nothing.
Ball is great right now. Best designed and balanced Tank.
These plays still exist all that change did was raise the entry point of play for that combo.
24:41 you know you guys are right, a support using their ult and getting pocketed should lose a 1v1 to a rein
Only forgiving realized she was getting pocketed
not to mention that Rally is the second most expensive ult in the game (2600) only followed by Beat (2900)
@@Spynug not really. Even if she was 1v1 but with Rally active, she would win
Don't forget the rein also grabbed the Mega health pack so it was effectively 750HP, or at least I think that's what happened.
@@jacoolest1473 Brig goes to ~60 hp, one more swing and shes dead
Great stuff from SVB as usual. Flats point about the lack of stimulus/positive feedback from the game for the tank role is so money. One of the main reasons OW is so fun & addictive is because of the visual/audio stimulus we get for making a play. That feedback loop feature of the game is really lacking for tanks.
Playing main tank feels like enemy team is treating you like the main tank but your team doesn't
I think DM pre range/CD nerf was fine, but what could have been done was giving her an indicator if it was low / depleted. It show up brighter when full, but fade away when depleted and maybe have sparks come out when its gone. That way DPS players can more properly time their abilities.
Just learn the timing. It’s not that hard. Besides you should be reacting to dm because she can cancel it at any tine
YEEES BEEN WAITING ON ANOTHER ONE!!!
Completely agree with what you all said about Winston. He is OK in a nutshell but everything else got so OP that he can't really compete. Also he could become really opresive if you just buff his stats so my take on the matter is to add a secondary fire to him. That way you are not necesarily improving him in what he does but rather make him more versatile.
What I thought could work is a electricity projectile similar to zarya's secondary fire but it does damage over time instead of burst damage. Also It should not be able to stack with Winstons primary fire damage (that would make winston a monster and he should not have more burst potential). Maybe this secondary fire has a cooldown so you cannot poke from distance all the time but this would allow winston to just put a little bit of pressure on the enemy team and static comps specially while he is waiting for his bubble.
I had a lot of fun with this one, thanks for the content SVB. Please keep this up
An idea for brig is to reduce the hps of her packs to 20, however make it last the full coodldown of 6 seconds.
Before they nerfed her, I considered overheal making the top 50 hp of a hero into armour rather than adding overall hp so that their effective hp increased, but not by much, just to protect them from dive, and another is that repair pack triggers inspire in the area in which the person she sends it to is.
Since as is pointed out repeatedly, her burst healing is an issue.
As for fortify, I feel like Ana is just as bad as brig or bap for how much sustain Orisa has with fortify.
This was great to watch, I was hoping for this after the support debate! Interesting discussion points for me were making tanking fun, teams picking around tanks and the niche of solo potential tanks like hog/ball. A dps debate would be interesting to see but tricky with so many heroes, maybe split it into two for hitscan and projectile?
This was one of the most interesting discussions about overwatch I have ever heard. I would love more content like this with other roles as well. This was fantastic.
I'm so conflicted with Winston's damage, it's so unbelievably frustrating trying to zap a pocketed target and they aren't even taking damage, but when they are grouped and you can cleave you can end up with damage medals. I love Flats' idea for him to bonus damage to electronics, but I'd add damage to shields as well. Or they could make it slightly increase the longer you zap a target, like 60 ramps to 80dps after 2 secs zapping the same target, and maybe give it a max up zapping 3-4 players at a time. And I agree with Forgiving that Winston's jump cool down should be closer to Dvas boosters.
My criticism is "electronics" is not an actual category in game. It's an abstract concept in a competitive Hero Shooter.
Is Bastion an electronic? Echo? Only turrets + lamp? It's an unnecessary and unintuitive math problem.
It's sloppy design and only belongs in a PvE environment.
@@libertyprime9307 Just swap "electronics" with "deployables". Torb/Sym turrets and Bap's immortality field, maybe possibly Ashe's B.O.B. would fall under this category.
@@NoriJun-kKj Even in that case, my issue is why do we have one hero doing more damage to a particular category of target? This is the only such case in the entire game.
What design reason would there be for it? Sym turrets used to be 1HP, so really convenient for Winston to rip them down instantly. They buffed the HP implying it shouldn't be so easy for him.
@@libertyprime9307 Torb's molten core does extra damage to armor. Sombra's EMP, along with locking all abilities, destroys all shields (barriers, health). While a bit different, Symmetra shooting barriers with her primary fire actually refills her ammo instead of depleting it, most likely designed so Symmetra can counter shields. Blizzard is no stranger to targetting specific mechanics of the game, and I don't see why that can't be the case for Winston. Especially since dive theoretically counters bunker, it would make immortality field (which is what helps enable bunker comps in the first place) easier to counter.
@@NoriJun-kKj Destroying barriers and shields is the entire effect of EMP, it doesn't do base damage to one type of target and then modifier damage to a different target.
"Blizzard is no stranger to targetting specific mechanics of the game"
Targeting specific mechanics is obviously not what I'm talking about, that's very vague and of course that's the case.
What doesn't exist is a category of target where damage is increased. Doing bonus damage to Armor is not unique since that's 1) inherently how Armor works, depending on damage per shot, and 2) Armor is a type of health resource rather than a target type such as deployables.
At the end of the day this is subjective and we can't prove each other wrong. In my opinion Armor fulfills the function we're talking about because when you see that Yellow health bar, you know heroes like Tracer or Winston are doing less damage to it than someone like Rein or Pharah. It's fairly intuitive, while a specific hero doing more damage to a specific category of target is not intuitive in my opinion.
This is the type of thing you'd add to a PvE mode such as in OW2 for flavor reasons. In the future it's likely we may see deployables used outside Bunker comps and then what? You'll either have to exclude some but not all of them from Winston's list, or he'll be OP against something he wasn't designed to.
"Especially since dive theoretically counters bunker, it would make immortality field... easier to counter."
So you think that the counter to Bunker should counter it even more than it already does?
The road hog buff makes sense. The only problem would be the road hogs terrorizing competitive Deathmatch
Winston is a skill matchup with widow, he doesn't straight counter her. It's really easy to headshot him when he is jumping at/near you. The only "dive" hero that consistently counters widow is dva because of her uptime on dm, health, health and extreme mobility.
All Winston has to do is 180 to hide his head midair. But you're right it's not like a hard counter. Widow usually grapples away and then Winston has to leave.
Or Winston can be zoned out from making the dive at all.
A good Ball can counter widow pretty hard as well.
i'd say Hammond counters her harder, than D.Va does. Ball basically auto wins the matchup, because of stats.
@@Smeik2901 He is a better counter up close. But he has to get close, Dva can deal with her from range (with dm) and has an easier and more consistent way of getting to widow.
In regards to how to give feedback to the tank player when they are doing something right when you eat an ult with DVA or Sigma they say “Denied!” And “Justice has embraced me!” Respectively and i find that super rewarding. Sure things like staying alive and taking space are harder to quanitfy but reinhardt taunting the other rein when you block his shatter would be a good first step in the feedback direction
Edit: nvm you said it
That would also really help dps players, because if you're a dps player and one of your tanks has gold damage, you're gonna ba receiving shit from him and everyone else. So maybe something like being a distraction and taking off angles to apply pressure would give you medals, that would help
Here’s an actual hot take. Orissa is fun. Especially with her halt and I like the vibe of spamming a machine gun. Maybe if they increased its damage but lowered its ammo others would like it more.
Down to 50, but bring it up to 12 would be nice, yes
@@GaussianEntity I say down to 100 but bring it up to 12 because of how long her reload speed is
If it was 50 she would have to reload way too often
@Lee McDonald her ult is the best ult in the game period
Role lock is such a 50/50 on one hand it made the game more stable but on the other hand it removed creativity in comps
You're absolutely correct, but we have the same 50/50 about who you're playing with compared to the compositions you're were getting in open que, not to mention locking the roles opened more of a path to creativity in a year than it did for the past 2 years.
I have a lot of critique, but at the end of the day it's one of the best updates they put into the game in my opinion.
Agreed. I do not regret a day. I think it’s worth it if not for team reliability, then to make it easier for devs to balance and to commit to a role base design philosophy.
Open queue comp is a thing. Hop on there. You don't need to play role lock.
space ghost coast to coast I know it is but it’s not the main mode anymore and I’ve heard that due the the limited players the matchmaking is weird. But mainly it’s that my friends don’t really wanna play anymore and role lock was the final straw for them. I’ve asked them abt it and they said that they would return even if it was 2-2-2 if a major update came out. I hope overwatch 2 will boost overwatches popularity again because this game is amazing.
I think the Orisa problem from a fun perspective is 2 things:
1) her gun is the worst feeling thing in the entire game. Low impact + low skill + high capacity = firing a lot but feeling like it does nothing.
2) static/slow/poke comps are most boring. High commitment to engage is fun. Orisa enables boring play even if you win with it.
Personally I would like an experimental with no move speed reduction from M1, more damage per shot but much less ammo, and like -50 Barrier HP.
timestamps:
1:32 Winston
18:55 Orisa
54:42 Discussing about burst damage
1:03:41 Tanks and coordination
1:11:57 D.va
1:14:20 Sigma and D.va
1:23:32 Roadhog
1:40:40 How to make tanks fun to play
1:59:34 Wrecking Ball
2:05:13 Reinhardt
2:32:20 Zarya
2:51:10 Conlcusions
Thanks! I'm gonna yoink and adapt these :D
The devs originally did not intend for every hero to be playable all the time. It was the player base constantly harassing them, telling them that x hero is useless and not fun in x scenario that caused the devs to change things. The reason heroes are no longer niche is the fault of the players, not the developers.
The point SVB made at 58:00 is why I gave up picking meta tanks at Plat. Because at Plat all meta really means is "the word players use to bully their tank (and sometimes support) teammates into picking the heroes they heard high level players use these days...but without ever considering picking the heroes that work with that tank combination, and without ever playing in the style that makes that combination work."
It's really just a more acceptable version of "I'm only at this rank because [insert excuse here]". While also being blatant hypocrisy, since those players will usually pick whatever THEY want to play.
I like how the borders around all the guys cordenate with the "primary" color of the tanks they represent
1:44:00 If anybody here has played Call of Duty, then you know about the medal system. In my opinion, I think this could work as a way to provide feedback. For example, going back to what Flats was saying, if a teammate gets a quad feed after you pulled a group of enemies as Orisa, then you would get a medal saying something along the lines of "Halt" or "Or where are you going?" With a little image of the pull on a medal or trophy. When you avenge a teammate in COD or even save them, you get a medal saying Saviour or Avenger. Medals like that could work not just for tanks, but for the other roles as well.
It's a little hard for me to explain without visuals, but I hope whoever is reading this can understand. Another example could be when you heal a teammate just enough for them to survive and beat whoever they were fighting you would get a medal called "Guardian Angel" or "You're not done yet" and if a player looks to see why or how they got that medal, they would get that explanation.
Gemu Bebop Thats actually a really solid idea lmao. There are so many benefits to that.
@@veryGoodTV3 Thank you for the feedback. I still wonder how it could work or what could qualify as a medal.
Naw I get it, COD has had this since COD4 at least, this would be fine by all account; I just wish that OW2 wasn't solely the reason for that change, they can do it now. I don't want to wait fucking who knows how long.
@@FriezaReturns00001 Exactly. They announce OW2 but there has been no new developments since then
Awesome follow up talk after the support one you had. Enjoying your content maN.
Oh no, Freedo starts to talk, and within seconds says "powercreep"
Thank you all this was a good watch
I'm a new player I'm still in bronze been playing about a month, and its so difficult to hear a good thorough conversation about overwatch that is good for all levels. This is single-handedly the best Overwatch conversation I've found online so far.
1:01:00 Forgiving is so right on so many levels even around mid diamond people still yell at me to play Orisa and then go and play Lucio
Forgiving has done educational vids from unranked to gm so yeah he has really good evidence
How do you make tanks fun? 1-3-2 role queue. Rework all the tanks. Making them as durable as 2 tanks in one. Try to balance them. Would be freaking fun. Would also solve the horrible queue time problem.
A shield tank that gets a stronger shield depending on how many shields the other team has. It would force them off of shields and now you have a crazy new tank.
Many ways to define "stronger"
A tank that can disable shields
A tank that can aoe slow people around him
Rework Mei into a tank
A tank that can throw in a mini disabling field. Like an mini EMP Bap lamp
A tank that can lower the gravity of enemies and force them not to being able to jump, or else they float like in Lunar
Give monkey a wall climb ability
A tank that can eat the enemy ult charge. Like if the tank pops ult and the enemy team resets ult charge
A tank that breaks apart in mid air and air strikes down, then recombines and has to get away
A tank that can mitigate damage done to the team for a set period of time
A shadow tank that has an ability to create a shadow to throw in as a dummy and for the enemy team to waste abilities
A tank that can do jumps back and forth damaging people on leaps. Think tracer meets Winston meets hanzo
That's what I thought of in 20 minutes.
10 different new tanks and 2 reworks
Meta roulette would be terrible imo, simply because forced hard metas make non-meta mains simply quit the game until the meta changes, or just permanently. Better equalized balance should always be the goal, for maximum player retention over time. Using map or especially player controlled hero bans sounds like a much better route for a temporary artificial way to enable a larger variety of comps.
Like how players can ban characters before selection in Paladins
Here's a buff for DVa: Total DM reduced to 3 seconds, DM increased by 10 degrees (so wider than longer), micro missiles reduced by 25%, shotgun increased by 25%, DM now grants 2hp of shield to DVa for every 3point of damage absorbed times the number of allies around her in a 10 meter radius, shield lasting 3 seconds.
The problem with DVa at her current state is survivability. She's never been a main tank, or even a complete solo tank like Hammond or hog. So she's best played when she's imbedded in her team and provide great peel. Since she doesn't bring a shield herself she's in danger of being blown up and staggered most of the time. Which is the most effected way to take a player out of the game bar none. They could keep micro missiles and shotguns where they are for damage but, maybe consider having bombs ultimate reduced, yes it's a wide area denial but it's also a skill shot style ultimate. At lowered level plays people will often just stand out in the open, at upper, multiple kills with bomb becomes rarer. IDK as a DVa player, she's hurting and may need a rework, that makes get viable for 2020+ level of play.
basically make her sigma
@@Smeik2901 You're absolutely correct, at the time I wrote this, Sigma was more dominate in the meta. Basically Sigma replaced DVas role in most play, and it seemed to me, that for DVa to be competitive, she needed to be like Sigma. Now, the meta has changed, and my attitude has changed with it. I want DVa to be unique and play into her strengths of course. Like any hero should. Currently her biggest obstacles are Sigma & Zarya. So until she can compete with these 2 giants, shes going to be a niche pick. Even in Dive, shes a niche pick, which is wild to me. Where Hammond (with a barrier that doesn't give ult charge) would take precedence. My thinking behind current over watch is that Tank DVa maybe should have shields instead of armor, or a combination of the 2, as to be thematic with all the other mechanical heros (like Zenyatta). Or/And have more Tank busting potential, since Tank DVa is shotgun hero. Which are generally Tank/Shield busters. That would give her more friction with Hog, although I think the Hog-DVa match up isn't particularly one-sided. As you can see its difficult to say how to make DVa both viable and unique in the current state of OW. And has largely been affected by nerfs the hardest since GOATs meta, along with Brigg. Which to me when 2/6 heros take the brunt of the entire post meta nerfs, it makes me question if blizzard is in the business of creating balance or creating metas. Anyways, if you have any suggestions, I'd like to hear it.
OR make baby DVa a viable DPS, with her own set of cooldowns. So basically 2 different characters in 1.
@@Orlando2914 I think D.Va's viability is largely dependent on Sigma right now. As you said Sigma mostly does D.Va's job and more, which is why Sigma needs to be changed more than D.Va herself. I think SIgma should only have one defensive ability, which would be his barrier. It is a unique ability and is what most think of, when they think about Sigma. That's why i want to have his Kinetic Grasp completely removed. It's basically just DM 1.0 - back when D.Va's matrix was on a ten second cooldown, instead of a resource meter - that grants you health, which doesn't seem to be that crazy, when you look at it as a single ability, but Sigma already has so much, that it stacks on top of everything else, making him too powerful for his own good. Getting rid of that makes it easier to balance D.Va and him simultaniously.
Apart from that i think if they really wanted to buff her, then just give her the 15m Matrix back. Even if that doesn't make her a meta pick straight away again, it will leave her in a good enough spot for her to take a spot in a different meta.
Fantastic, after the support vid I was really looking forward to this and was not disappointed !
yoo thank you so much for putting this on Spotify!
I personally, as a diamond/master Orisa, think it would be cool if they reworked her fortify to act more like defense matrix or Moira heals. It would be an interesting experimental card at the least.
How to make tanking fun: I find that the most fun way to play tank is the "disruptive" playstyle instead of the "team support" playstyle. By which I mean aggressive DPS-tanking rather than being a shield bot. The most fun way to play Reinhardt is to keep charge and fire strike on cooldown and swing your hammer which works up to a certain rank. Getting deleted by dropping your shield is therefore the antithesis of fun tank play. More tanking should be done with messing up peoples target prioritization by being a huge threat. Less shielding and more raid boss. Currently, I'd say that a lot of DPS-heroes "generate more threat" than tanks. I hear "we have to deal with X hero" about DPS heroes more than about tank heroes. DPS heroes demand more attention than tank heroes rather then the other way around. It feels like the only reason tanks can take space is because of their large health pools and shields rather than demanding attention.
Overwatch is an objective based game. The objective of the game is, simplified, getting tanks to the point and keeping them alive there. The game needs to embrace that fact rather than try to make it something else. The fun of tanking should be to be the raid boss. To do this damage, which is by the game's design the most rewarding to play, should be less about murdering everyone and more about supporting your team. Damage should not be allowed to be cyborg ninjas, cyberpunk hackers, catsuit snipers and the actual grim fucking reaper AND have fun doing MLG 360 nano-riptire into an earthshattered graviton AND have the medal system and reward mechanics designed around them AND be more of a threat to map control than tanks.
I don't know how to balance the game to feel like that but someone else probably does.
Other stuff:
I had fun playing Orisa before role queue as an off-brand Reinhardt. I remember shield placement and aim mattering more, at least at the rank I played. Spammy bunker Orisa is very much not as fun as "Reinhardt with a gun".
Whenever I get shattered I think "Shit, I messed up!" which means that it is one of the best abilities in the game because you know that your mistake was punished. Very few other abilities have that effect. So... nerfing it was unnecessary because it felt really fair. Not like anything in Doomfist's kit that punishes you for... existing?
Only thing I’ve ever had against shatter was how hard it was to deal with when not mirroring Rein. Blocking it as Winston or post Sheild nerf Sig or anyone else really was stressful. Other than it felt fair. A lot of the time it takes team follow up.
DMG heroes draw aggro if exposed because they are glass cannons. This isn't an MMO with taunts lol. If Tanks fail to take aggro, they are too passive.
Good Tanks take turns rotating aggro in a sense.
Rein in front with Barrier until it cracks > drop Barrier to take some damage to HP > Zarya bubbles him for charge > Rein falls back to cover for healing > Zarya soaks damage by contesting point and bodyblocking > Zarya bubbles self > Zarya falks back to cover and now Rein is full health, full barrier, goes back in front.
Rinse/Repeat. Works for all Tank lines in various ways. If enemies ignore Tanks to focus DPS, Tanks are too passive or DPS are overextended.
@Liberty Prime
Being an aggressive tank is fun. The problem is that due to tanks being deleted so easily you have three options: Be a shield bot, be passive or respawn.
Playing damage is not only inherently fun. It's also even more fun at the cost of tanking being unfun.
xerxstirb nail on the head. It seems like tank and support either (boringly) dominate the meta or they end up being cows and sheep just for DPS to slaughter.
@@xerxstirb From my perspective, Tanks do not tend to get deleted in the neutral if they're playing well.
I only really enjoy low time-to-kill games, like basically this, TF2 and Quake. And I think Overwatch is often too high sustain and recovery.
The concept that you get more power by doing the right things is already more or less applicable to Wrecking Ball, Sigma, Zarya, and Dva.
One thing I'll say is that Blizzard needs to produce official guides or something on what each role is for
I say because I recently made a new account and placed DPS in gold, and the total lack of understanding on tanking from players there is genuinely shocking to me. Whether it's weird tank comps, wasting ults, failure to contest and waste time, failure to switch up their positioning, holding at exposed angles, no or poor comms, Orisa players shooting at long range and not pushing forward, the list goes on and on. I've found it very hard to consistently win games in gold because it just seems the majority of tank players at this rank just don't understand what tanking is supposed to provide for the team. It's very frustrating coming from diamond and masters, it feels like I need to be extra aggressive and make constant high risk plays for us to have a chance
Jak you helped me out a lot I was depressed for a couple days till I found you. your a legend ❤🎉
This was a very great and informative podcast I hope you do more in the future.
I have an interesting idea for an Orisa rework that would make her much more fun and dramatically change double shield.
Make her shield retractable like Sigma's, but only be able to take 400 or 350 damage. However this shield begins recharging faster after breaking or being retracted, and recharges about 1.5-2x as fast as Sigma's shield. Next change her health to 400 with only 100-150 of that being armor instead of the 250 current armor amount.
The buffs she will receive to compensate for these changes are a new passive called gallop where she moves between 1.5-2x faster after not using any abilities, shooting, or taking damage for 5 seconds. Right now she feels unbearably slow and that is a big part of why she is considered the least fun to play. She also has a solid damage buff of maybe 20-35%, not sure exactly how much would be right here.
Fortify will stay the same, it is meant to be a free escape from one potentially lethal situation like fade or ghost-wraith from Moira and Reaper.
For Halt I have an idea for a replacement ability but I'm not sure how good the idea is. She activates a mode called "defense down" where she lowers her gun, sheds off a bit of her armor making her have a slightly smaller hit box, but leaves her with only 100 health, and no weapon drawn. To return to normal mode she hold down the same button and it takes maybe 2-3 seconds to bring her health back up and pull her weapon back up. The benefit to the ability is that while in this mode she moves between 3-5x her base speed (not the gallop speed).
Her ultimate could also be replaced with something called "power surge" where she gets the speed of "defense down" without the drawbacks, the effects of fortify, and a further damage buff of about 10-15% but unlimited ammo clip size for the duration of the ultimate. A downside of the ultimate could be that she has to spend 3-5 seconds to enter the mode, vulnerable while entering it, or take 3-5 seconds to leave the mode at the end of it, or a smaller duration to both enter it and then leave it.
The idea for this rework is to make her less of a defensive monster and far more of an offensive tank, which is generally considered more fun to play. With this rework she would be an assassin-like tank zooming around to find off angles and get picks similar to roadhog. She is much more fragile with less total health and much less armor and a much weaker shield, but she has far more mobility and more damage potential.
I've played about 350 hours solely on winston and I can confidently say that winston is the most balanced character in the game. And that's why I need to switch off him so much, ESPECIALLY on control maps since by round two you're being hard countered.
When d.va was eating halts dm was a bigger range. That got nerfed around the start of double shield
Cool vid 👍 I loved the steam
57:56 YES! SVB! I'm a low ELO tank/off-tank player and this can be a huge problem.
I also agree with Flats that a lot of players DO have some grasp on what's meta, but just refuse to play it. A couple games in low gold I suggested playing Zen/Brig on heals but no one agreed. It was only when I had a few friends playing with me that we made it work.
But there's also the fact that, there's less versatility in lower ranks. Like sure people have hours upon hours on every tank but that doesn't mean they know how to use them correctly. In fact I know my Orisa isn't great bc I'm not combo-ing with anybody (unless I play with my friend who knows when to exploit my halts), but that's also because halt-combos weren't as common back before goats. If you played Orisa before goats (and a little bit after) halts were mostly used for solo environmental kills, and personally - I always used them to displace a charging Rein so he couldn't swing into my team as freely.
I had the same feelings about D.Va during all the meta shifts in the past two years, when at first you would play her very aggressively during dive, only to play more passive in Rein/D.Va comps - basically babysitting your widow - and GOATS was literally non-existent in lower ranks, even high plat which was where I averaged at the time. Just because she was meta all that time doesn't mean every D.Va main was good in every meta. If you're not able to adapt your playstyle to the changing pace of the game, then it doesn't matter if you're on meta picks or not.
So I think the general consensus in lower ranks, is to either not play meta because they don't like it, or not play meta because they're bad at it, and that's how you'll end up with some terrible Rein/Tracer/Moira fiasco on like Anubis or something.
If heals are overtuned then dpses are MASSIVELY overtuned. We are in an era when you die when flamestriking from the corner. Full hp to 0 in .5 sec. No shit we are use to play shields when devs are consistently pumping damage heroes over all proportions. Since they buffed mcree to a new Mcbastionree everything went downhill for tanks.
When you have dps characters that can be fit multiple playstyles and are constantly dumbed down no shit tank will play something that can deal with that
as someone with 50 out of 200 hours on hog, the lower rank hogs are really easy to get value and can solo carry when your team is throwing.
A lot of the reason people don't play tank is because of the pressure to play certain tanks. Most players won't even play OW as a tank today if they are a Ball, Hog, Zarya, D.Va mains because they are just flamed for picking the hero they are best at! So why bother even queueing up!
Funny enough, a lot of initial issues with balancing came as a result of the devs trying to kill goats. To think that in the end they just gave up and added role lock, but left us with all these power crept heroes put the game in a really contradictory state. Even the last few heroes have kits that literally do everything; so to truly balance the game, would we bring the game back to pre goats numbers and then start nerfing the new heroes? At this point the global nerf route freedo advocates heavily is the only way to go imo.
I assume you're gonna be doing a DPS debate too, I'm curious how you'll separate them..because there are A LOT of DPS.
Utillity, Snipers, Burst, Disruption (Sombra, Mei)
Personally I wanna hear a discussion on Sombra and Mei that isn't just DELETE MEI! DELETE SOMBRA! REMOVE HACK! etc. a proper, measured discussion.
Or perhaps a trigger happy mercy-e-girl on twitch that wants nothing but the dps to be useless/or doesn't play them selves to know that point of view. Gotta remember all the roles have faults and many of them can overlap into each other, breaking things in general for average usage/game play.
Frankly Widow/Hanzo are our only sniper characters and are legacy ones at that; for now they are just pub stomping characters if nothing else, I don't want them touched in a negative way as we have our tank equivalent aka Roadhog, I doubt they'd take them out of the game -- the dev even said they wanted to tone down the teamwork overall which is good would allow for other things to get done to achieve victory.
Sombra is like special case dps dealer if say she gets a QoL change, it either makes or breaks it for everyone else not Pro, objectively speaking her kit is regulated to not being easy at all to use but problomatic going up against. Reaper is also here as well walking that line'd edge if another changes gets put in he's suddenly in every high rank game or down below despite dozens of guides showing solid examples of how to shutdown Reaper pretty much all the time. Even in my low rank I full understood this and I stopped playing ranked ages ago.
Mei... ah man fun to piss people off, terrible to go up against -- they could do the tank change to her but we'd need to see that ala the Experimental Card first then I'd get my thoughts. For now its up in the air, freezing itself would need to get reduced, the range of the freeze is getting reduced, the slow getting reduced, etc etc.
For me the issue with Sombra and Mei is that what makes them unique makes them to strong of options when compare to the other damage characters. No other damage character has the cc of Mei or the disruption of Sombra. Thus they have to be niche because the ultility stacking they provide would be too overbearing. The only way to keep them unique would be to put them in more fitting roles like tank and support. Mei for instance could be a tank and her cc would then compete with the other tank options. Sombra as a support would have her utility compete with the other buffs and debuffs effects of the support line up.
This was great! I recently got back into overwatch and the playstyle feels almost completely different- Ashe/mercy dmg boost combos and invulnerable Orisas hiding behind an Ana feel generally lame to play against. 90% of the game -as a tank- feels like you're relying on your dps to kill something, otherwise it's just "who has better shield burners". Then it turns out into an all out brawl. Great video, really pulled some of if not the best people to contribute, keep it up!
I see nothing wrong with Brig killing Rein while using her ult and getting heals. The Rein still could have won by simply charging her in that room. Also, Bap still has the lowest support winrate across all ranks; and one of the lowest hero winrates in general. You really can't justify more nerfs on him to make Orissa weaker when she still has a fair winrate and he doesn't.
Thank you for this
Someone needed to say this
And of course an Ulting Brig and a Baptiste are going to be a single Rein. That's not exactly surprising.
Yesssss I was hoping for this!
The idea that "team play begins at low masters" (around 1:05:00) is SUPER troubling. It means that most people aren't even playing the game the way it was designed, but it also makes me think there needs to be some kind of in-built teaching mode in OW to correct this. Also, I think you get people in Gold/Plat who WANT to team play, but simply don't know how. There's no objective knowledge/authority that everyone can reference. This is a problem of education.
Deeper play that is more logic based is the key, especially when it comes to Tanks, they should have the deepest counter play.
BRUH, I totally thought freedo would look like the guy in the bottom left! hahaha
That’s what Imagined too , but the dude on the bottom left has a deep has voice 😂
lol cant believe you guys didnt know what he looked like
I agree with flats on the rock, paper, scissor idea. Causing the players to decide whether their individual/team skill can out match their opponents advantage or swap to them having the advantage.