The Great DPS Debate feat. Seagull, Samito & Freedo
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- Опубликовано: 17 июн 2024
- In 'The Great DPS Debate', I'm joined by Seagull, Samito & Freedo as we discuss the balance state of every DPS hero in Overwatch, as well as broader issues such as power creep, the balance direction of Overwatch & general thoughts/hopes on OW2.
Podcast Links:
Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutK...
Soundcloud: / the-great-dps-debate-f...
Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast...
Timestamps:
0:00 Start
0:01:20 Summary of the Experimental Card Changes
0:04:00 Will The Experimental Changes Change the Meta?
0:13:00 Orisa Shield Changes: How Will It Change DPS Picks?
0:23:32 Burst Meta?
0:27:18 Pharah
0:36:50 Will Roadhog Encourage More Solo Comps?
0:46:44 Hanzo & Will Sigma Changes Make Hitscan Stronger?
0:57:40 Ashe
1:01:10 Do We Want More Power Creep? Or Should It Be Toned Back?
1:15:50 Seagull's Plan to Revert Power Creep
1:21:10 What's Coming in OW2 for DPS?
1:27:40 Symmetra
1:31:25 Bastion & Torb
1:38:45 Widowmaker - The Most Broken Hero?
1:45:53 Doomfist
1:54:05 Sombra
2:00:07 Tracer the 'Proof of Power Creep'
2:07:45 McCree
2:13:20 Reaper
2:17:20 Junkrat
2:22:48 Soldier 76
2:27:50 Mei
2:33:16 Was There Ever A Perfect Meta?
2:37:00 Genji
2:49:10 Seagull's Wishes for OW2
2:55:00 The Unnaceptable State of OW
2:58:00 Why Seagull Is Angry
The Guests' Socials:
Samito's Twitter: / samitofps | RUclips: / samitofps
Freedo's RUclips: / youroverwatch | Twitter: / xfreeedo | Twitch: / youroverwatch
Seagull's Twitter: / a_seagull | Twitch: / a_seagull | RUclips: / aseagullow
My Merch: teespring.com/stores/svbs-store
Patreon (Who Get Discounts and Free Gear): / svb .
Twitch: / owsvb .
Twitter: / ow_svb .
Discord server: / discord . Join me! 
Игры
SVB is a great host. He lets his guests take their turn and give their complete thoughts. Such a good podcast
Actually so true. Just found his channel recently and this guy is a natural host. Very very solid
Now you should do something like "The great Overwatch debate" Where you have 1 or 2 people from every debate (for example Cupcake and Niandra, Freedo and Flats, and Samito and Seagull) where they discuss the best and worst things about every role from their own perspective as a dps, tank or support player. I hope you see this and hopefully you'll like this idea. I've really enjoyed watching all of the debates so far. Thanks for having such amazing ideas!
Wow this is a great idea!
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DPS debate:
All right lads , let's talk about Brig 🤣
They wouldn’t have the debate if brig didn’t exist lul
@@Jaymizuband well.. they would because svb has already done the great support and tank debate
Kadnaz it be like that
Not their fault if Brig influences the DPS role so much.
@@forcebrand4678 Ya I know I wasn't complaining just made a joke 😂
I don't really care if everything is viable all the time, I just don't want anything to be unusable most of the time.
Luigi 3000 nah, a bunch of reworks could fix overwatch
Take a shot when Freedo talks about Powercreep
Take a shot when Samito talks about a low skill ability/hero
Take a shot when Seagull says something funny
Take a shot when SVB tries to shift the topic
see u in hospital
Hospital? I died.
@@jemmascott5559 how is it down there?
@@OfficialFo It's not too great, we have Overwatch but it's only Pre-nerf Brig and Moth Mercy.
@@jemmascott5559 oh no...
Jemma Scott lemme guess triple stun too?
I never clicked so fast on a three hour video.
Facts lol
Same ez click here
I'd say same but I watch alot of long ass content
Amy Quigley please refer me to some of the long vids you watch. They're my favorite type.
Fr haha
I agree with seagull and Sam, and I have been saying this for a while.
Continuing to balance and build off of changes made during goats meta is only going to further break the balance of the game. Rolling back changes made to address an issue that doesn't exist anymore just seems like common sense to me.
It's like they have two different people making changes that are stumbling over each other, one doesn't account for the other, and they cause this huge balance issue when the changes overlap to either produce a change way too strong or too weak.
They did the same thing too before GOATS actually.
They nerfed Tracer's ult because it killed tanks too easily, yet they somehow forgot to account for the exact same patch release of Brigitte which pretty much killed Tracer during GOATS meaning Tracer was pretty much a throw pick during that time. Of course, this is just the one example I noted since then, they've repeated this every so often.
The dev team is really awful at balancing for PvP, its no wonder this game has gotten to this state.
PvE is something to look forward to, since no one gives a shit about being OP against bots.
@@aglis_ Balancing games is hard but the devs just seem especially bad with it. It rarely feels like they know what they're doing with heroes and a big reason is that the devs are too busy fighting over changes.
"Only going to further break the balance"
Ehhh, tbh, it's gotten more balanced as time has gone on. Not saying that the changes shouldn't be reverted, but post-GOATS (i.e. right now) is definitely one of the more balanced Overwatch eras.
blizzard was never known for great pvp balancing. Having one game where the balance was great does not mean, that other games will get the same treatment. How goes the saying? Even a blind chicken finds a corn.
As a lower ranked player, this is so great to watch. So much game knowledge being tossed around and I always come out having a much better feel for the game on the other side - and I LOVE design talk. Please keep these up.
I swear podcast Samito and actual player Samito are two different alter ego's....
Wdym Samito says the same shit here just more respectfully
Samito is the best person there
do you watch Sams streams? he says the same things during his streams as he said during this, he is the same person...
@@nicklanter4758 +1
Nick Lanter Minus all the yelling and name calling lmao love samito but dude can be a bit of a child at times.
I kinda wish they discussed Symmetra a bit more, they kinda glanced over her with Samito's comment and went right back to Bridgette
Who the *fuck* cares about Symmetra?
@@comedial6829 Many people who have been playing her since she was a goddamn support character. There may be less Sym mains than other DPS, but they are very loyal to Sym.
@@seraphimrosenhart173 There's a reason why Sym mains are rare, because nobody cares much for her.
@@comedial6829 Alright just because *you* dont, doesnt mean other people do. She's a hero, just like every other hero in the game, and deserves the same amount of attention.
@@comedial6829 Except a fair bunch of people do. And many others want to care for her, but she's been treated like trash from the start, which makes it hard for people to invest in her. If they made her more viable, more people would want to play her and care about her. And that's why talking about her matters. I'm not a Sym main at all. But I like her playstyle and would like to play her more often if she was more viable.
SVB, I love these podcasts!!! Keep them up! You can do many more as well. Maybe next "The Great OW Debate"?? much love.
It’ll still be about brig 😂
I think Zarya and Winston are the only tanks that feel super “neutral” Winston has only gotten minor buffs and Zarya got nerfed then minor buff. And I think it’s honestly where we need other heroes
As a zarya one trick, she is nerfed with every new tank release because power creep
Winston, Lucio, and Hanzo were all good up until new heroes came out/other heroes getting buffed and leaving them in the dust when it comes to power. Zarya is sort of in that boat as well, they gotta start nerfing dps and nerfing sustain if they want these older characters to be good.
Love these podcast style videos. Thanks for the content Svb
31:24 The way he said that was really funny because you can imagine it.
"the counter for doomfist is having a brain" yeah ok but my teammates dont have brains, and they definitely don't have ears, I've never seen a teammate turn to shoot at doom the second they hear him
well as a doom main I had enemies chasing me to the next map
Besides it doesn't really matter if he's balanced or not. He is one of those characters that is so unfun to play against that no matter how niche he actually is he will feel terrible to play against. Probably similar to when Mei was a throw pick. Doomfist is a problem with design and not necessarily balance.
Doom isnt annoying to play against unless you in plat.... but even then , the hero have too much counters and also the heros he used to counter hard got super buffs over the years, its even hard to kill zen soldier and genji as doom atm its just unfair for doom players
@@mattelk6510 agree completely, if you can't handle doom you're not playing as a team
ReggieLet i mean you want to talk about dps with bad design lets talk about widowmaker
These podcasts are awesome, usually I can't watch something this long but you guys keep it interesting and informative!
I would say, the main thing I want from any meta, is that there are no hard counters where you go off the overview screen and see "oh they have X hero, so I should just swap nobrain". I think Seagull touched on this example of Tracer vs McCree, where McCree in theory counters Tracer with his flashback headshot - but it's still a skill counter, and a good Tracer can blink around it and gain an edge when cooldown management and mechanics are on point. So in essence both can skill counter each other when played properly, and this philosophy is the best possible matchups you can get in a game like Overwatch.
On the other hand you may see the enemy has a Sombra and then you can't play Ball, just as simple as that. Something in between is the dynamic of Reaper v Winston, sure in theory Reaper shreds Winston, but Winston has the potential to work around Reaper with his mobility and bubble placement and shield dance. In that sense, Reaper works more like a zoning character, rather than a hard counter. Reaper doesn't have the skill ceiling to effectively shut down a skilled Winston, but he can make his life hard. That's a fine dynamic, but when you go above that where certain characters just lock out other heroes, or even full comps that just require that you mirror them for the sake of effectiveness, then the game is in a bad state.
That's why the CC and ability increase poses such a major problem for Overwatch, because to effectively combat the abilities of certain heroes and comps, you are locked out from playing many heroes and you have to play this waiting game where you try to bait out and force the enemy's hand before you can even engage effectively. It's all about creating an opening, you can't work in the entire midfight because the real value only comes once every ability and counter ability has been forced. Going back to McCree vs Tracer, they can both work against each other constantly, try to force each others' hand in a fluid way where there is always the kill potential, and you have to mindgame each other if the skill level is equal. If Bap throws a lamp, that's it. It's a hard statement of "NO" to all you're trying to accomplish. A Sombra going out of invis and hacking you during your play with a no skill ability, thats a hard statement of "NO". These total shutdowns of abilities or general damage and plays, hurt the game.
Bruh who has time to read all this
ye I remember that tracer vs mccree analogy. A good ball can be played vs almost anything else so I don't feel like the sombra counter is a huge problem. And like pharah he's much better on somemaps than others. It's not like they would start to play ball in owl if they removed sombra from the game anyway.
Yeah I don’t like how some characters fun is taking the fun away from other people. Sombra and doom are fun to play but they have fun by taking away fun from other people.
@@joel9002 lmao this is a 3 hour video if yall aint got patience for some lines of text ehhh what can I say ^^
@@verycoolname8012 This is also a good talking point. In fact, in the first year and a half of Overwatch's release, a direct quote from Jeff himself was "We don't want to introduce elements that take away a player's control of their character, or make it feel like you aren't able to play the game and decide your own fate". But with the constant ability and cc creep, that statement has been turned completely on its head. Just to make an example, Sombra proves this the best by purely existing for these very reasons. Same with a hero like Doomfist whose entire kit is based around CC and without it he wouldn't be able to exist. Brig too, especially on release.
It just goes to show that the OW we were first introduced to, is very far from the Overwatch that exists today, both in terms of complexity but more so in core philosophy.
I really like Freedo & his viewpoints are very informative, but I wish the guests had anywhere close to equal talking time...... It's frustrating to wait for their opinions but not be able to hear much of them.
It’s just different personality types. Freedo is a talker. He has a lot to say and he usual does a pretty good job saying it.
@@TV-vz7rf I agree. But we should be able to hear more from the others, instead of them getting a fraction of the time he uses.
It seems like Freedo has 4 opinions total and repeats them at every opportunity.
Seagull expresses new and nuanced opinions of high quality, but he doesn't talk about them much.
Remember that vid Seagull released like last year about the state of the game? Everybody was talking about that vid for a month.
Freedo is a co-host.
I disagree. I heard Sam and seagull alot. I think SVB didn't get to talk enough.
Trying to balance this while also adding like 6 hero’s must be difficult. We ask for big updates then also say they change too much at once. To be fair it seems like a really hard job
But It isnt. I know its in another genre, but Dota2 has over 110 heros and the game is always in a fairly balanced state. The big difference between the two games is that Dota2 gets small patches relatively often, with a big patch around once every 2-4 months.
They mean big things as in DLC kind of updates i think.
@@ollieols3418 you can't compare overwatch with a moba. They only have one map (basing this on LoL not played Dota2) with three lanes. You add a new champion to fit into that system. Whereas in overwatch you add a hero but are not sure of their impact on every map and every type of game mode. Also heroes have a bigger impact on certain maps control is played completely differently to hybrid maps - even if you used the same heroes. It's like comparing cricket to football both are sports and team games but are so different.
@Juan Castaneda You're joking right? Balancing heroes is not that difficult, the developers were notorious for completely ignoring the balance of the game for long periods of time, then magically dropping one patch 3 months out of a horrible meta, and then disappearing again, hoping everything works out.
@@fraserproudfoot1990 You may not know this (maybe you do), but OW maps are developed in a way that forces circumstances on purpose. All the devs have to do is build around those already implemented ideas. For instance, doors are made specifically so winston cannot jump thru them, but if you go to the other side, it's completely open with no ceiling. There are many instances of this sort of design in OW, and the maps are more universally designed then you might think.
love to listen to this content while working. much love from Vancouver.
1:08:30. Samito nailed it. Hire this man Blizzard.
fr
Glad that Sam brought it up in this conversation. Chipsa said it best. The easiest way to counter doom is to have a brain.
I feel like Doom is always going to be in an awkward spot balance wise because he's so all in. But personally I feel even if Doomfist is the worst character in the game he will still feel terrible to play against. It's the same thing with Mei. They can be super niche but feel bad to play against. Doom's design is just too volatile.
Having a brain wont stop him from one shotting you but ok
Emerald Moth it means it’s easy to stop him if you have game sense. If you know they have a doom be ready for him sit in spots he has to use cool downs to come to you. Keap a cool down ready to use. If your getting fucked switch
Emerald Moth Flashbang, Hack, Shield Bash, counter Charge, Accretion, Cryofreeze, Fade, Wraith Form, Sleep Dart, Fortify, Zarya Bubbles, Overload, Hook, Playing Pharah or Echo, Boops, Movement abilities.
@@OneRandomVictory that makes too much sense 🤫
The Tank debate was the best one so far, really looking foward to this now ^^
@Abhinav Banerjee yeah ok, I can see that. But my reason to like tank debate more is because it was actually more of a "debate" :D In the support debate there was alot of agreeing about issues and in the tank debate everyone actually had different Ideas about tanks and what could change to the better :) But yeah true, the support debate was a pleasure to watch as well ^^
Just finished this podcast, damn dudes well done!
the thing that got me most about this conversation was "call of duty for world of warcraft players" i don't know if its original to Freedo or not, but it really hits the nail on the head for me. because you have 2 different entry points into the series your always going to have conflicting methodologies (moba vs fps). additionally you are going to have to try and balance a game where people are entering with a literal lifetime of FPS mechanics vs a literal lifetime of RTS/RPG strategic thinking. the dev team must be so polarized on so many issues because we are even seeing that trickle down to the community.
As an Ex WOW player, who now is comfortably in the top end of gold/low plat I really appreciate all of the interactions in cooldowns and strategy because I don't have the mechanical skill to "click heads" at the higher ranks. Watching OWL I can see how the same interactions I enjoy, from a Rock-Paper-Scissors mentality in my games, become oppressive when played at the bleeding edge and i haven't the foggiest idea how anyone hopes to balance the 2.
my only critique for this format, is that the guests are in the top 5% of the player-base, which gives them a ton of credibility, but i feel like they have trouble seeing the game in the same way as the other 95%. Perhaps it's a symptom of viewers only wanting to see crazy skill, but I feel like players in the "metal ranks" are largely disregarded because they "haven't gotten good". Even within the comments here, it seems like Freedo is discriminated against because hes not an OWL player, which, in my mind, is a disservice to the player-base at large.
I find it funny how Seagull looks like he's holding in just constantly telling Freedo he's wrong on a lot of things. even asking if he's even played the Changes and when Freedo said he didn't try some of them I feel that just voided most of his points after that to him.
You can tell he's biting his tongue. I love how he comes in and just goes 'No, I've tested this out, I've got experience'. Even when he doesn't know he says that he doesn't have too much current knowledge on it.
I’ve been waiting for this! Thank you!
SVB these Role Debates are amazing and super educational and entertaining. I'm a support main but getting insight on dps and tanks as well is hopefully gonna increase my overall gamesense and skills. Also a good host let's his guests speak and elaborate on their thoughts instead of cutting them off. You are a great host my man.
I guess the next debate to get players from different ranks and talk about their issues? A player from a metal rank, a player from diamond/masters, a player from Top 500, and a pro player. Idk I think that would be cool to hear the different perspectives on that.
I’m a gold/play player here. I don’t know why I mentioned that but I totally agree with you. So much discussion based around the gameplay of around 2 percent of the player base.
I would love to be the high silver perspective honestly. Would love to learn more from a discussion with "bigger" players. Forums get me confused
I agree its a good idea but at the same time I feel the issue is that at the lower ranks you don't really understand the gameplay mechanics and different interactions each hero has or else you would be able to climb to diamond+ (would say masters+ but honestly those players understand the game but are the most toxic bunch imo).
Granted some people are just held back by mechanics but the game also has a ton of light mechanic options you could climb with.
Similar to what Sam and seagull said, at lower elos you may say a hero like roadhog gets alot of value and can just stomp through games. That would be an issue not with his kit or balance but the understanding of gameplay and mechanics of those going against him.
Yossi Goldstein I have played there and this is what I learned. In there no brain characters like doom, sombra and reaper dominate because they have really specific counters. Also the characters like bastion torb and sym are powerful because counter picking and play doesn’t exist. It’s kinda like everyone is a 1 trick who don’t know how to outplay counters or counter pick.
@@whalescience8831 exactly, someone who does not even understand the essentials is not someone you look at for balance.
I think reaper needs his a higher skill ceiling. Overwatch was my first PC first person shooter and I played him because I didn't need to be very good to get value out of him. And right now, I still think of him like this. I want him to have some abilities where you can do big brain moves with. I mean, the way he is played in silver isn't much different then the way he is played in masters.
It's different lol. Sliver reaper walk towards the whole enemy team and miss somehow but skill 3 or 2. Master sneak behind the enemy to just kill the support but then get slept.
@@mahmood2603 Reaper isn't played in high ranks because people have the gamesense to know there is a Reaper behind lulw
master ana/brigs will probably shut down reaper much more often
Give Reaper an ability that deals less damage but ignores Defense Matrix, Kenetic Grasp, and shields. Make it similar to Storm Arrow, but have him announce it with a quick one-word call like "Loaded". Give him one or two shots to pick off an enemy regardless of enemy peel or shields. Also, give him a fixed pellet spread and make his teleport silent.
Also, give Reaper a 1-2 second window to recall back from where he teleported.
So awesome to see these 4 people on a cast I enjoy all 4 of your takes on this game and I respect you guys as a big part of the overeat community
These type of videos are always FIRE content.
I will say that I enjoyed this discussion, much like the Support and Tank debates before it. However, I think that if the opportunity arises in the future, you may wish to consider revisiting this particular topic. As great as the incite into the recent Experimental Card changes were, alongside their potential impact on the game if allowed to go live, I feel it ultimately cursed and took away from the conversation that brought us here to begin with. By the time we hit the one hour mark, only two heroes have been covered whilst a third is being worked through. A few of the DPS discussed are done so mainly by way of some other Tank or Support hero who was the primary focus at that moment. Samito doesn't even have enough time to offer his fully fleshed-out take on Genji nor any concluding thoughts alongside the rest. Mind you, I don't hold it against him for having other things come up, it is what it is. Perhaps if this had remained more focused, like previous debates, that time constraint wouldn't have been an issue.
Again, very enjoyable overall. Just messier, which is especially noticeable when discussing DPS because there are so many more heroes who need to be covered when compared to the other classes.
It certainly was the weakest of all the debates. Certain heroes were hardly included in the debate. I know meta comes into the discussion but that took the focus more than any heroes. Brig, Orisa and Sigma are pretty central to the game right now but they also aren't DPS. Maybe if it was a focus on how everyone fit into that meta it would have been more appropriate. Sadly that was not really the case.
Seagull!
Great video, love the series
I like the visual information added of Heroes discussed so far:
i just played experimental and i really liked the pharah changes. her flight feels so much smoother and her ult isn't a slightly more elaborated suicide anymore
Genuinely had no idea there was a Support Debate. RUclips said nah we ain't gunna suggest this one
it was a little weak IMO. no ML7, no Sleepy, no Fran. I dont think I recognized any of the names on that debate. The Tank one was pretty good though.
@@corymerritt9100 ya tank one slapped. And ya, by the sound of it the Support's doodoo
@@ryanfrancis3839 I second, the Support debate was a dung heap. Don't bother. Let me sum up how it went: "people have an issue with this thing... oh well."
Half the people on had only personal emotional opinions and only one had any objective rational perspectives for the game as a whole. Don't waste your time, you get more from the comments section.
Unfortunately I think 2 or 3 of the 4 players are a pretty low ranking. Tank one kinda nuts though
Love these podcasts, just wish they were on a podcast network or app, would make listening on the go a bit easier since I don’t have RUclips red.
What if overwatch just changes Brig from support to tank. She could keep her abilities except healing and her ult only gives her an amor buff ?
of course the great DPS debate starts with them talking about brig
I love freedo on other channels but dude needs a timer on him when it comes to other people talking. SVB you need to control the conversation and be the mediator when it comes to guests talking. This man talked wayyyy too much. Loved the discussion tho.
I really didn't notice Freedo talking that much, if anything I noticed Samito talking the most
Yeah Freedo kind of made himself MC and featured guest, especially in the very beginning. I think his perspective is good, just maybe less of it. We can always get his take on his own channel.
Love him too, but completely agree with you
@@davidrich27 the whole poimt of him being here is to talk about his point, he should take as long as he needs to get his point across clearly, they all should. Thats the point of a podcast... You guys are so arrogant its incredible
@@StVez
You make no sense. The fuck does arrogance have to do with saying someone is talking too much? The point of a podcast is whatever you want it to be. When you're having a discussion, you want relatively equal opportunity for everyone's input. But you can definitely have people taking over the conversation. Discussion is about the exchange of ideas, not going into 5 min diatribes. It wasn't awful, but Freedo was definitely hogging the mic a bit.
I think you missed something important about the hog changes, that's hogs new potential to outplay counters such as reaper and brig. Both now being the subjects of getting oneshotted.
This enforce the need to teamplay in order to deal with the hog. It's now much harder to counter-pick and outplay a hog as a solo brig or reaper.
The thing that's really great about the change is consistency with low hitbox heroes that's supposed to be squishy enough to die from the hook combo.
34:47 I think the thought process would have been that since sym wasn't meta while literally vs what she is her strongest against, then she would be even worse when double shield is gonna. And with pharah, since shields are going to utilized less maybe the skies will be used more, therefore meaning pharah will have to keep up with echo, and I think hog buff was just to keep him up with zarya because with double shield possibly gone she may become very powerful
Freedo talks a bit too much at times and talks about so many topics at once. The first hour only Pharah was talked about. We needed to focus more on the live game and dps than the experimental card. Maybe do a different discussion on that in a different video
@Abhinav Banerjee I hope lots of dps players move to other, more dps oriented, games. There are waaaay too many in Overwatch, but dps is only 1/3 of all the roles!
Abhinav Banerjee I hope he doesn’t because I love freedo
I think he is super passionate and it’s hard to stop sometimes. A valid feeling tho man. He’s way more polite in this one than the tank one I think.
what I'm 50 minutes in and they only spent like 10-15 minutes on pharah
@@VeganBro05 yeah i like what he has to say but can just rant abit too much at times and doesnt focus on specific point he wants to make
Freedo needed to take a backseat. You could tell that seagull and Sam were dying to jump in and correct his opinions.
I agree with the statement on deflect cancel. It moves deflect from a neutral skill to more of a "i win" button if you even remotely deflect any damage back. It had allowed for counter play by learning the timing, had an intractable cancel with wall climb/dash, then Blizz just said, nah we need to make it easier and made it cancel able.
excellent debate
Freedo makes content for the casual base, and his takes were underwhelming at best. Seagull and Samito had so much constructive stuff to add.
Yeah how dare he make content for 90% of the player base
Gold thinks he is a hard core base LUL
@@Ratovx I literally said i wasn't hardcore 🤷🏻♂️
@@Mkenran Not you, the other guy xD
I think he shines when he plays devil's advocate on conversation with others. At least he can admit that his takes are trash and it moves the discussion in some cool directions
Sam really knows what he is talking about, its pretty impressive to hear him discuss the game actually.
speaking on the subject of these guys making a workshop with mass nerfs and testing the game out, I think it would be very interesting to see individual players get together and try and balance the game how they view it. Whether it is getting a dream team together to make their own balance patch, or even one person and their own vision. I would love to see Seagull make his own mass balance patch, I feel like he really simplifies the changes he thinks the game needs and it would be really interesting to see where he takes it. I hope you guys actually end up making that workshop! It would be wonderful
i think it’s really good to have some one like freedo beside from is game knowledge and intake it’s good to have someone talk to high skill players about what it’s like in lower ranks
I feel like freedo was the odd one out here, idk it felt like hot take after hot take. Loved the show though!!
I'm not hating or anything, but Freedo overpowers these discussions most of the time.
How could you leave off Freedo's name from the thumbnail? :0 (Love these podcasts/discussions btw)
I actually enjoy watching the good teams playing winston zaray dive against double shield in the countdown cup
15:04 lol I like Freedo, but that just seems so backwards hahaha. I think playing a new patch, THEN giving thoughts and reactions is a more productive and informative process than simply seeing the patch notes and discussing/ speculating from there
Freedo is general just talks a lot without having specialised knowledge
His whole brand is generalising and making things accessible for the mainstream so like. Dia and plat players. So it doesnt rly matter what the details are he just rambles about the gist . The only problem is that ppl take his word as gospel when hes like masters and never talks to the best specialists on niche issues
@@ayembic7933 Well there's nothing wrong with speaking as a Masters player or speaking in general. The vast majority of OW players are sub-Diamond. I think its cool to get a perspective from someone that doesnt live in GM or Top 500. I just thought it was weird that Freedo and Sam were giving takes on the experiment before even playing it
As Much Of People Dont want to admit it. Ana started all this Healing Creep. Than They added Moira and Then Brig wasn't a healing problem yet just a cant die problem. Mercy Got Nerfed Even though She Was about to fall out of meta and Then You Add a Character Who Has Aoe and a Burst Heal and Damage with an ability to prevent death. Did I mention also Vertical Mobilty.
How did ana start anything?
@@ganilau4214 her nano boost healing 300 hp at the time along with lucio beat buffs and I believe miora buffs with it all in the same patch
Moira started it and buffs to other supports back in the day moira healed SOOO MUCH
@@ganilau4214 Ana 100% started the sustain problem
i'm glad you guys brought up junkrat being OP right now. i see him in nearly every fucking game, and he is triggering the fuck out of me. I genuinely think we're a good month or two out of a junkrat meta. if they go thru with the exp. card changes, i think thatll push it into existence immediately.
Yo man, are you from Greece and did you used to play WoW on Frostmane or Kor'gall Horde? If so greetings from an old friend o/
It's impossible to balance the game around OWL and cater to players of all levels. Freedo needs to get out of Overwatch quick, he's more spicy than Samito in this vid. Also, always a pleasure to have Seagull!
Exactly they need to balance the game at the highest tier and forget about lower ranks. It doesn't matter either way cause the lower ranks will always do their own thing and have "their own meta"
simbadg13 agree
@@simbadg13 yes ignore big majority off the playerbase odd an old game. Yes they should mainly look at the high end but they should also try to keep it somewhat enjoyable to learn for most of the playerbase, no company wouldnt do that.
Get over yourself
@@darkwolf1739 yeah 4 years of balancing round lower elos really improved the game and gathered even more player and the playerbase didn't all left at all
@@98thebern FACTS exactly this guy gets it and the other doesn't. Saying "get over yourself" doesn't add anything to your argument and shows how little their analytical skills are....
That cigarettes in prison joke had me rolling, SVB has really proven himself as an ideal host
As a Silver PS4 casual player that started in 2018: I adored Brig & Moira when they released, to this day I love playing them, but they are the epidemy lf what annoys me about this game rn.
There's way too many characters that can easily stun and burst you rn, it feels like any slip up will kill you not because the enemy is aiming well or using game sense, they're just piling on Shield Bash, Hooks, Freezes, and Flash Bangs or dropping Junk Mines, Dynamites, and Helix Rockets.
Match this with the Shield Meta and it feels like any game is just stand behind shield til you break the enemy's and then just throw a ton of easy cooldowns on them.
And there's a lot of abilities I recognize are super strong like Genji's Dash, Sigma's Grasp, and Reaper's passive that just don't feel as annoying bc they're not actively disrupting the flow of the game.
And tbf I don't know how to fix this cause a lot of Characters that are fun to play like Echo, Babtiste, Lúcio, Sombra, and Moira are fun precisely bc of that bursty playstile, high mobility, and/or AOE abilities, but I guess I just wish they'd prioritize making a fun game.
Meta's can rise, but I'd like them to priorifize good fun game design more.
Me reading your comment realizing you didnt complain about doomfist who is countered by more than half the cast and is countered by the enemy having a brain and gamesense: "A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one."
The great map debate is next right?
Can you have Freedo's mic volume match everyone elses in the next video? Last one he was quiet as well. Working from home means I can't just make it super loud to hear so that'd be great if you could normalize it. Thanks!
Pharmercy on console is kinda very very annoying ngl
This is top tier quality
To me, the Hog change seems to be aimed towards lessening rng factors from hooks. When you hook supports like Ana, Lucio, Moira, it is very RNG-like whether you actually kill them or not - and if you don't, you often risk exposing yourself too. If you don't insta kill the Ana for example, you either get anti'd or slept so in many situations it might not be worth the effort to even try to hook her, because of the risks involved. The new pellet damage buff means you will be much more consistent with the hook combo, and you won't feel like it being a waste to hook an Ana or a Lucio.
On top of this, the change also buffs his potential vs armor, where every pellet does half damage. Before the change, Hog did 3 dmg per pellet, but now that his individual pellet damage is upped to 7, the half-damage negation of armor rounds up to 4 dmg instead, so he effectively deals 30% more damage to armor compared to pre-buff Hog. That's quite a significant change, especially vs Orisa and her Fortify also applies similar logic - and even Brig who will also be more vulnerable to getting hooked, because her armor won't bail her out as easily anymore.
The hog change is sooooo bad. Why can't they buff him in ways to help the team like the "dart gas" experiment change when they reworked all the tanks. Buffing his damage will just make ppl play him selfish again. He's in practically all my games even when we need a shield tank. This is precisely why we need separate balancing.
@@deonhollins3448 I'd say mostly Roadhog is played because many former dps players queue tank for shorter queue times and just pick Hog because he has the most similar playstyle, and he can work even if his team is uncoordinated af - which is most of the ladder tbh. I think Hog as a hero is fine, but he just feels out of place in many of the modern comps, where other tank duos just synergize better and offer more overall value for the whole team due to this entire ability creep that's been going on for years. Hog was designed to fit in the game back when comps were simpler and ability overload wasn't a thing.
Seagull seems to be such a big-picture kind of thinker
Well, when you are trying to get both a competitive game and a casual friendly game you get neither.
You get Goats.
Ironically, by making the game more accesible they also make the game less rewarding, shorter lived.
I believe that is why Dark Souls is still quoted by a lot of people while other games that are easy to master decay over time.
At least that is how I see it.
I'm not sure if I agree. I feel a competitive scene emerges from a casual one naturally. I think the major problem with OW is an identity crisis. The devs don't really know what they want the game to look like.
I think Samito is right. From a business perspective you want to bring in as many players as possible. The accessibility and the diverse roster is what brings players from all over the spectrum into the game. I think Blizz should lean into that as it's a major appeal of Overwatch as a game.
@@reggielet9804 From a business perspective? no. HELL NO. Blizzard is ignoring the first rule about sales: You only sell something when you know people will come back for more.
They are favouring short term profit over long term business strategy. (But the clear move to mobile, the focus on China and the large amount of bad decisions over the years are really festering in Blizzard at this point. Remember, it took years for Blizzard to become the most respected company in the gaming industry, so it takes a few years to destroy that as well).
The CEO couldent care less, he gets paid based on year to year profits, not long term strategy. It is well known that this is a conflict of interest for CEOs.
It is almost identical to the real estate crysis of 2008, because so long as everyone is getting what they want, they ignore how screwed up the thing is (meaning as long as the shareholders get more money, they will be happy to pay BLizzard's CEO more bonuses, even if it means he puts a torch to the building to get the insurance).
Imagine what will happen, when blizzard rides down their IPs to the ground for profit and need to come up with something new, after they have been replacing old Blizzard employees and management for Activision. I dont expect this to get better.
I hope I am wrong, because many of my favorite games are Blizzard games, but I dont see how they can get back on track. I think Overwatch 2 will be a big tell (thou to be honest, based on facts like them releasing paid only skins, it is clear where the direction is at this point).
By the way, This is just my opinion. I happen to have been accurate in the past (Like when i said that brig will break the game and that they will nerf her so many times we wont be able to keep count), but selective memory probably makes me forget the times I was wrong so...
@@lrmcatspaw1 Um I'm not familiar enough with the business practices of Activision or Blizzard as a whole... I just know that there is a reason that Overwatch as a stand-alone title was so so successful. It brings in players from all over. I personally never played any fps before Overwatch.
I would say as far as design goes I'm hoping Blizz finds a happy middle ground between the loaded kits of Brig and Sigma, and the one dimensional kits of Reaper and Moira. It's really hard to balance the game when you have characters that can basically do everything and characters that can only do one thing.
@@reggielet9804 I dont think the problem is the fact that some heroes are more complex than others.
I think the problem is that you have an SR system where having a significant impact with some heroes is easier than with others.
This is where Goats came from. Remember, OWL teams are the pinnacle of overwatch, and they went for whatever would easier guarantee wins. It got so bad that Blizzard decided to bring live GOATS to the show to make a bet on which team would win to make it interesting (yes, it was that bad).
That is why in QP i dont mind getting killed by those "lower skill ceiling" heros, in fact it is the reason I dont play ranked anymore. What is the point of a rank, when it does not represent your skill in the game? (Shout out to DaFran who lost a Rein 1v1 vs a Bronze Rein).
Think about it: the game is actively telling you, after each match, that you play worse than someone who is playing something easier.
That is not to say that Brig and Moira require "no skill" at all (people overexagerate these), but I happen to play often in QP with a friend who mains Brig and Moira, and he gets less damage as Bastion than me as MC cree when he tries to DPS, so this is both from theory and expirience.
Let me explain my point a bit thou: When Brig came out I said to my friends (and in a few youtube comments) "They will nerf her more times than we can count and she will either become shit or still be broken".
Why? because if her kit requires little skill to master (time invested, talent, etc), then her value in the battlefield needs to reflect that. Now try to balance that. Try to apply this idea to any other hero.
Think of this: how do you balance Widowmaker if she always headshots everytime she pulls the trigger? (this is on top of having all her previous skills, like grapple hook) You do you balance genji if he gets a dash reset everytime he damages someone with dash? (this is with him keeping all his previous skills, imagine just dashing the ground repeatedly next to your target).
Well, brig guarantees damage and self heal and team heal when she hits an enemy. How many times have you MISSED an enemy with brig? Yes, bash and whipshot are not that easy, knowing when to use them is not that easy, position is not that easy... but every other hero has the same thing to consider AND aiming on top of that. Again, how do you balance it?
In my opinion, you cant. Because everytime you change any other hero in the game, Brig would be shuffled again based on how strict you had to be with the balancing of her guaranteed hit. Its a question of probability really.
"how likely are you to win this fight". This includes "how likely are you to kill brig before she heals up enough to kill you". Moira is a bit different here. I still dont like her in the game, but compared to Brig she is more balanced than Thanos wants.
@Enda O'Rourke I am not trying to draw parallels between Dark Souls multiplayer and Overwatch, I am mentioning it as an example of a challenge being rewarding.
Goats!!!!! I love playing it in open q its unbeatable unless your rein is absolute trash
Want to see that workshop video!
Samito is right, Brig is the strongest Hero in the game, because her skill floor is equal to her skill ceiling. Sigma is strong, but you still have to land hyperspheres and accretions to get most of the value out of him. Any halfwit can jog along with their team and land a beach-ball sized whip shot when your entire team is pressing W + M1. It's not as forgiving as Mercy's leash, but it's very close.
I dont want to have a full debate because I have to explain this to everyone. Brig is actually a decently complex hero, not as complicated as gengi or tracer, but she has depth. You can easily tell the difference between a good and bad brig. Her skill ceiling is very different from her skill floor. Dont trash heros you know next to nothing about.
@@Arucan I know everything about Brig. She's got the simplest, most forgiving kit in the game, with the possible exception of Mercy. But the difference is that, if Mercy gets cornered, she can't turn and brawl her way out of trouble with a foolproof kit. Mercy actually needs to be able to land headshots with that weak-ass popgun.
Brig's only relevant skills are positioning and cooldown management. Well, that is a problem that every Hero in the game has to master. The difference is that every other Hero has some mechanical complexity to handling their movement, their aim, or both. Any complexity Brig players have to cope with is a subset of the complexity any other Hero has to manage, again, with the possible exception of Mercy.
@Abhinav Banerjee the problem is she has too many options
@Abhinav Banerjee She's an absurdly simple character. No tricky movement. no aiming, just one beach-ball sized whip shot every 4 seconds, as if such a short cooldown made missing remotely consequential, and a shield which neutralizes all kinds of mechanics and damage. You're right, you can play like a complete spastic asshat and just leave your team and try to 1 v 6 people, but anything approaching competent play will furnish results, and most importantly, there's no way to play Brig *BETTER*.
The best Ana players in the world will still miss with 70% of her scoped biotic rifle shots. Hipfire is considerably less reliable, and at high ranks, using scoped fire is a giant signal to every flanker on the map betraying your location. The 90% percentile of players will hit less than 30% of biotic rifle shots.
Why on earth would you take that risk, that more than half your healing is going to strike air, when you can get guaranteed value from repair pack, plus constant healing from Inspire in every brawl? If the game let you, the top teams would run double-brig.
@Abhinav Banerjee Check win rates, not pick rates. Pick rate alone won't tell you if a Hero is good. Brig is less popular at lower SR because as Freedo says in this very video: the meta-game is less prescriptive the lower you go. You can play whatever you want in Gold or Plat, it's no-stakes. In GM, where the meta really is dominant, Brig is unrivaled.
As for healing sustain, that's a complete joke. The reason Ana can't heal forever is because in low SR, she'll get farmed by flankers, when you can't rely on teammates to communicate and peel. So, pardon me while I play the world's smallest violin while you have to wait six seconds for repair pack to refresh and you're only healing with inspire when the Ana is waiting out the respawn timer.
The game has a fundamental flaw. (We all have a different experience)
Every FPS we play the same character so we can build skill for that character. However with Overwatch if someone starts by playing Tracer and another starts with Baptiste you will see the game in a fundamentally different way.
That's why you should play multiple characters
We may all play different heroes and roles, but that doesn't necessarily mean understanding of the game differs.
Excellent podcast, with 3 great players...and freedo
What a great convo. One thing I am optimistic about is that, if anything, the game is in a FAR better state than it was at this time last year, so things are trending upward. Who knows, by this time next year the game could be pretty much balanced.
Would love to see more console representation in these panels, especially since Pharah is so overpowered on console (even in Masters).
Blizzard keep nerfing Tanks & Supports while buffing DPS, then they wonder why no-one wants to play Tank or Support. :(
Definitely, I have had so many winnable games (on console) where the enemy team switches to Pharmercy and just kills everyone :/ maybe reduced damage or less airtime?
Pharah mercy is no where near as broken as Ashe mercy on console
Charles Carey exactly aim assist on console literally makes Ashe players hit every shot it’s almost like you need 0 skill to play that hero and then every other healer is a mercy 1 trick cause they also have no skill but don’t get punished for playing mercy because nobody plays meta with a computer that destroys mercy for her weaknesses. I always get a god damn hog on my team while they play double shield
There’s no chance we’re going to balance around console. You either 1. pray that blizzard separate balance for consoles - which won’t happen. 2. Suck it up and play on console. 3. Switch.
Isaac Lim ur telling about 40% of the player base to “suck it up” 🤔 console has much bigger problems than balance anyway
Blizzard balancing: Hmmm this dish needs something, maybe a pinch of salt, let's also add garlic chocolate and peanuts!
This tastes good- wait no stop! Stop adding things!
I think overwatch would be great if the player can customize their own kit in a way. counter play and balancing options could be more available to the player
i think the biggest problem is that people don't play strategically around cover and also the fact that there isn't enough cover/too many flanks and open areas in the game that makes barriers so broken overwatch without barriers is shit because the maps were designed with barriers in mind
Hearing shockingly little from the two people I came here for.
That's how it is with freedo....
It's because they don't play those heroes
If they keep nerfing tanks, then the game will continue to decline
It'll just turn into technicolor call of duty, which I think a lot of people would actually like.
@Abhinav Banerjee Every time Blizzard does a nerf the meta changes. As you point out, that is the point. Problem is that a new meta arises that people complain about. For me the problem lies within the fact that not all metas are playable at all ranks. I have liked double shield, because at the low SR I am, it is playable. Dive is not possible without coordination.
This simply leads to less tanks available at the rank where the meta sucks.
@Abhinav Banerjee Every Meta was not so enjoyable for the community and there will ways complaints about it. And nope, burst dps heroes are too strong ATM so barrier tanks become necessary in every comp. The same happened already in the past with multiple sniper heroes in a comp and it created the GOATs Meta.
@@corymerritt9100 If that is where OW2 ends up, I will also be on to Valorant. No difference in games /sadface
This one was pretty good
You SHOULD balanced around the Top500 and GM's because those guys have their own meta, in GM it's double shield but in gold/plat it's rein/zarya the major difference being you use more your brain and natural gamesense in DS, in rein/zarya it's more about press w and kill enemy
What about hero specific buffs to each other? I think a big problem is if they buff or nerf someone to counter a specific hero or playstyle it doesn’t only change it in regards to this hero but in regards to all heroes and thats how a lot of broken shit happens like goats or doubleshield etc.
For example sigma, i liked the fact that he was somewhat playable as flextank (main and off) but now with the shield nerf he will be even harder to play as maintank but on the other hand he indeed is too strong with another shield maintank
So why not whenever he plays with another shield hero his shield gets nerfed so he can be an offtank and whenever he plays with like a hammond or zarya his shields are stronger
Same thing with widow counters, why not buff certain heroes to take less dmg from snipers or headshots so they are stronger only against widow without making them broken to every other character
Like SVB said buffs that are only buffs in specific situation like winston is good at destroying deployabels to counter a immortality field or a tjorb turret and make dive more playable again instead of just giving winston just extra dmg and breaking the game
1:54 all my sombra mains.. boop😎
It seems many of the problems stem from support/tank character interactions. Pocket mercy for example boosts Ashe into a one-shot machine or makes Pharah unkillable on console
Omg pharah mercy is such a Bug problem on console, you can hit every shot and miss a single one and shes just full again
@@ArdaSReal I like to think that you really meant "bug" problem, because it is fitting.
@@Desgaroth yeah youre right xD but idk if they should make a console patch that would be wierd too
MythSith pharah is a troll almost in masters and above most people just play hitscans and roll with or without a pocket she is very map dependent
I think the hog buff is a bit crazy cause even though I don’t play him often, I can hit my one shot combo but the person barelly survives. Now I will always kill that target without much skill on hog and I think this is going to make him op, especially below diamond where I’m the only person in voice
Yeah but he’s a very sustainable dps with 600 health, a heal and now a guarantied one shot
@Abhinav Banerjee I think the important thing is that difficult oneshots like ana, reaper, mei will be more consistent or at least lower health than before, removing the option of just going mei reaper ana bap and making hog useless
It shouldn’t but the fact that he can one shot pretty much every squishy in the game without needing as much skill as before makes it so that there’s no the point in all that cc when you’re dead before you can press a button
Why they keep buffing phara on console? She is the most op 60% win rate on masters and grand masters ?? Why blizzard why??
Because nb cares about ow on consoles. :)
Ow on consoles is like mini golf vs normal golf. What mini golf favors and caters to, is a nonexistant problem in real golf
@@lumikkiharthri6658 well put
Lumikki Harthri but a lot of people complain that blizzard only balances for OWL sometimes where the problems you run into in casual play don’t exist at the level they play at. Kinda hypocritical maybe?
Lumikki Harthri there are alot of good players on ps, also im prbbly 3 times better then you no joke . i play both on pc and ps and my rank is not that far away, actually as a doom main i love play on pc now more cuz its EASIER for me atlist on pc then console )
Actual possible fail on experimental changes:
With Orisa pull being garbage, the new tank meta will be Rein+Sigma and we'll have even more shields.
That may be true but Rein sigma feels a lot more fun. I know Orissa takes skill and she is a fun character, but watching those fights in owl feels like a snooze fest
Pull is the reason Orisa is meta, and having one ability making a hero meta isn't fun. Also, Reinhardt is more fun for both teams due to it being much faster pace games with Reinhardt.
Edit: Spelling error
Rein/Zarya > Rein Sig
@@davantemadden8186 For brawl sure, but if your team picks a slow poke comp...
@@davantemadden8186 Rein sig > Orisa sig
It would be great to get Jeff in these podcast.
I think Overwatch struggles design-wise, because the vision was to have hero-swapping for maps and to counter comps... but that idea is fighting two things. First, people like to have a main character and second a lot of the characters play very different and for the average player to be competent at multiple heroes to facilitate a counter comp hero swap is a time commitment they won't make. Also even the people playing at high ranks that do sink a bunch of time in the game... seem to get an equal or greater return on investment by becoming really good at whatever character is slightly overtuned than knowing how to play multiple heroes at serviceable levels.
Came here to see Samito contradict the nonsense the Your Overwatch guy says and was immediately rewarded.
Freedo took the longest to say the least
Bastion on low rank(in gold) to me is easy to deal with now. Because their tanks shield usage/shield health is terrible.
-junk main
today someone said walk the dog DVA and before i knew it i was babysitting a moving explosive wheel
Anyone else disturbed by the lack of emphasis on pvp for OW 2? I want to play a competitive online shooter, not a pve game.
@Lee McDonald well tgey already showed a new Mode and im guessing more are going to come.
what? they will ad new heroes, new maps and literally a new game mode for pvp in OW2
@@nihatbozkurt1197 Agreed I feel like people are forgetting the big new Splatoon style tower control mode coming
I think that Freedo expressed his points well and was the only one who actually consistently talks about the downstream effects that certain things Will have or have on Lower level players. All of their inputs were very good but nobody else besides SVD who was mostly passive during the whole video really considers lower level players... So I would say that he did a great job actually representing the bulk of the overwatch community. Sure you want to hear about what works on GM ladder but most likely that's not you. Having to reinforce this is probably why some people think he spoke too much, which I disagree. He was cut off very often.Great debate but probably a bit all over the place compared to the Support/tank one.
In a competitive game where there is a ranking system the idea of the system promotes the fact that lower level players are striving to become better. not stay silver for the competition, but to climb to the highest ranks through that competition. and in this case the game needs to be balanced around the highest level players. Because A) they understand the game the best. B) they push the games and characters to their limits. and C) those levels of the game is what people are striving for, they need to see the top players play, learn from them, and be able to apply what they do in their own game.
He always talks too much
@Christian Stewart thats what quickplay is for. and with the mmr system any playstyle works because you can keep playing it until your mmr is low enough that it works :)
@Christian Stewart I dont think you read what I said at all. I said some heroes should be niche picks. as in specific to some map or area of a map or team comp. and that how viable they are should be tuned around masters and higher level gameplay. Im not sure how you got what you said out of that.
@Christian Stewart Thats not a valid argument because the mmr system is the fix. New players shouldnt be looking to climb they should be looking to have fun and just play. play qp. if youre competitive do competitive but you cant expect to be high ranked playing only one or 2 heroes especially in a new game. Learn the game on brig or moira sure but we shouldnt reward new players for playing noob stomp heroes and giving them gold or plat when they play and understand the game at a bronze level.
They nerfed Doomfist way too much.
Agxny TV exactly thank you he needs a buff he’s underpowered and has too many counters
My thoughts on hanzo is that his identity feels split
He’s a sniper that also has great mobility that also can brawl. It feels weird to have a character both be able to one shot squishies from any range as well as put massive sustained dps into tanks and be able to flank.
Definitely agree that doom is more annoying than he is broken
Part of what makes him so annoying is that he is easily countered. Its quite often that he’ll just jump in, kill someone, and then immediately die. If someone is instakilled by a widow, its unlikely that the widow fed in order to get that kill. Doom can feed his brain out, get a kill, and die and its like, “i died to that dumb dipshit. He made bad choices, and now we both have to sit in spawn”
Like, he’s easy to counter, but unless your team is super aware, they probably won’t do so fast enough to save an ana or zen or whatever