The Will Ramos Vocal Study - Thoughts from a Metal Vocal Coach
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- About a year ago @TheCharismaticVoice released a video documenting the first stages of their harsh vocal study. While we've known a lot about harsh vocals for some years now, This study is likely to be the most in depth and comprehensive look into the mechanics, acoustics, and health implications of extreme vocals ever done. As a vocalist myself, and a metal vocal coach, I'm PUMPED to see where the data takes us! Let's talk observations, predictions, and more!
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Start Screaming TODAY! www.kardavoxacademy.com - I've been a vocalist for nearly 15 years and can help you in one on one lessons or with our online course, "False Cord Fundamentals"! Listen to this sample of my students and hear for yourself! ruclips.net/p/PLUWlpPRyCEaZiPCurr6_lxxI1Y3qjB1-4
Will, '21: I am the new singer for Lorna Shore!
Will, '24: I AM SCIENTIFIC CONTENT FOR THE METAL RUclipsS!
I'm reminded of that first Jinjer video Elizabeth did, and how shocked she was. And when she did her first Lorna Shore. And as shocked as she was, she wanted to know how it worked, and jumped right in. And it's almost a trope from metal interviews that the artist is asked "How do you do that?" And the response is "I don't know. I just tried making that noise. This way hurt so I stopped that. This didn't hurt, so I did that" Vocalists both clean and harsh have damaged their voice, and frankly that doesn't have to happen. The better the vocal science and medical communities understand this, and the more they share it with the vocal coaching community, the fewer people that will hurt themselves. And maybe more people will learn harsh vocals, and that's a win 👍
Honestly "primal vocals" is probably one of the coolest ways I've heard metal screams described.
Ppl have been calling it guttural for awhile which is a bit more neutral imo, but it doesnt have quite the same metal ring to it as death growls or whatever
yeah and it can more accurately describe some of the tribal throat singing
Yes! Please volunteer to be part of the study on harsh vocals. My take away was TCV is releasing the information from their study free for researchers and I agree, we need more vocalist!
Also, I love seeing how excited the scientist are to learn about these "primal" vocalizations.
How I understood the video was that they were almost begging for other vocalists to go under similar studies. They were emphasizing the benefits for the test subjects, too, to get more participants.
While it's of course also business, someone has to pay Elizabeth and Kirk's bills, they seemed to genuinely want to bootstrap this field of study.
As for scientists being cute; that's how scientists go. Being truly *interested* in finding out new things is what makes a good scientist. Geeking out on discovering new aspects of old things.
the study is really amazing. As a former Biomedical Engineer that worked on similar things at University (mostly musculoskeletal related) I ended up pursuing Data Science as a career because “there was nothing” interesting enough for me. So I look at these scientists and man their grit and perseverance on that field is inspiring. I wish this collab (metal singers, youtube, research) all the best!
As soon as I finished The Charismatic Voice’s video I immediately went “hell yeah okay now where’s Mark’s video?”
Same for me !
Meanwhile solo beatboxers are looking for just about anyone at all in other areas of vocal pedagogy to acknowledge we're using similar extended techniques in different ways that could also be cool to learn about. We also near universally use inward vocalizations a lot right from the beginning and haven't had anyone with vocal problems yet. Its cool people are getting more curious about different uses of extended vocal techniques and really looking forward to having better and more accurate terminology to talk about them all in the not too distant future!
100%! I've had a few students who were pretty solid beatboxers. I remember my first student was doing what he called throat bass almost exactly how I do gutturals. Just small variations in pressure and voicing. Haha that was a very fun lesson!
I find beatboxers Amazing... Resident Alien's actor Corey Reynolds got to add in his beatbox version of "Amazing Grace" into the show, cuz the director acknowledged the actors' strengths. Fun stuff!
A very good friend of mine does beatboxing. I'm trying to learn harsh vocals. He recently started learning throat-singing and he already sounds amazing.
He doesn't really like extreme metal but he can appreciate the technique and skill that goes into making the music. We both regularly show each other music and both try to analyze it.
We have also realized over the years, that we use similar techniques.
What unites us (beatboxers and harsh vocalists) is, that we both love to make voices in ways you wouldn't normaly do. A Disney princes might break out into song but that song will always be clean singing and never beatboxing or metal screaming.
Let's be united instead of going "well, why do *I* not get recognition?!" I am 100% sure most people are able to appreciate the skill, that goes into beatboxing more than the skill, that goes into harsh vocals.
@@ThorsShadow Yeah totally, that’s what I tried to get across with my last statement that any research and spreading awareness of extended vocals is interesting and helpful to all of us. Just since Mark indulged a bit in talking about how it was cute having scientists discovering stuff he’s known about for a decade, I couldn’t resist a bit of a cheeky response. Just my way of saying we’re here and we want to talk and learn about false fold, arytenoid and epiglottic distortion and inhaled vocals and subharmonics and all that other fun stuff and that we might have a few things we do somewhat differently as well.
Currently beatbox vocal techniques are very rarely discussed by most of the vocal pedagogy community. But if people start to include us in the conversation we can also try to push support of research and good info and maybe get a different audience interested in similar techniques.
Not sure you know, "The Fairy Voice Mother" is doing a lot of beatbox related analysis/colaboration (eg. with River) lately.
Yourself and Elizabeth have been my go-to sources of info-tainment regarding my own hobbyist study of "vocalization" and informally coigned "primal vocalizations" for the last few years. I love both of your perspectives when approaching things and willingness to admit when you just don't know something. It's a great indicator of someone who's knowledgable and respectful of their craft and makes it incredibly refreshing for someone like myself to know that I'm not having to take every sentence with a grain of salt. I have an immense amount of respect for your own willingness to throw your own hat into the pool and hope to eventually see or hear about a follow-up of yourself getting poked and prodded.
Yo, much love and thanks so much for the kind words! Learning is honestly one of the best parts of honing any skill, and I assume when I'm still doing harsh vocals and teaching ten, fifteen, or twenty years from now, I'll still be learning more!
I love it that you make it clear MOST of your knowledge is just experience based EVEN THOUGH YOU KNOW THE SCIENCE AND THEORY HELL OF A LOT BETTER THAN MOST OF US.
The source + filter scheme just makes sense. Some parts of the vocal tract produce sound, the rest of it filters it.
The only real problem with applying it comes when you don't know enough to properly separate the source from the filter.
By the way, I just wanted to let you know that between the information provided by you and Elizabeth, it has helped me tremendously in finding vocabulary for my own attempts at teaching voice actors. I'm in the process of making and editing a video on how to utilize vocal distortion for character work in voice acting, In the vein of some popular Bethesda games. I love what you all do and I hold it as my primary Go to whenever anybody has questions about vocal distortion!
Looking forward to this, bud!!!
First time watcher of your channel, came up on recommended today after I watched Elizabeth's video. Long time Charismatic Voice watcher, and it looks like I will be a future long time watcher of this channel, as your vibe fits EXACTLY what I'm looking for in my music channel consumption.
I wanted to chime in regarding your final thoughts, as I remember Elizabeth touching on it in her video. She said that they are currently working, not only on multiple courses using the research, but ALSO publishing the research. The issue they are currently working on in publishing is patient privacy coupled with the having the resources to make it available, as well as parse the data. She mentions it very briefly in the closing remarks of the video.
Way to stick the landing at the end! One of the most pivotal factors in getting that down-the-road understanding you mention is raising awareness and having those who can do harsh vox at a high level step up to actually take part in these studies. Cheesy as it may sound, this is absolutely a "be the change you want to see" moment for the vocal community.
Thanks!
as soon as I watched this video, you immediately came to mind. Stoked to see this.
I would KILL to see a study like this on Danny Filth
Yeah, standardizing the terminology for metal vocals is something I look forward to. Right now it's kinda messy but that's because metal vocals used to not be as understood as they are now. But now that we're beginning to learn and understand more about them and as they become more "mainstream" (seriously, who would have imagined someone coaching people how to do these sorts of sounds thirty years ago?) we really ought to clear up and standardize the terminology so it is clearer and when someone talks about doing x thing then everyone else is on the same page instead of doing y thing because they used a similar name for a different thing.
I know that's just my human urge to study and catalogue and label every little thing, but we need to hurry up with metal vocals damnit! 😂
Also, it was super refreshing to hear Mark say, "I'm fucking great at what I do." I know that humility is great and all and nobody likes a braggart, but hearing some confidence is really nice too. I'm not a student of Mark's but I'll bet he IS great at teaching harsh vocals, and he should be proud of what he's done. Plus I suffer from self-esteem issues and it's always great to see someone else recognize and acknowledge their own accomplishments. It makes me feel like I might be able to do the same thing, one day
@@darmakx99 Thanks so much, dude, and seriously, whatever you want to do - you should do it! Trust me, some days I wake up (like when I've been recording this new Kardashev) and I'm like "Boy, you suck!", but I just gotta push through it and get it done!
So yeah, I understand it, a lot of my lessons with beginners involve building confidence - it takes time and hard work, but it's totally possible for you too!
This is going to be awesome!
Really nice take on it Mark!
Was just thinking about how you responded to the last video they did. Looking forward to this one as well.
as a fan of charismatic voice this popped up in my recommended and holy shit, i fucking love Kardashev! one of my favourite bands at the moment. i noticed the album covers before you mentioned you were the singer and was definitely curious haha. also love the Ghost Bath record behind you
Thanks so much!
Great video as always man. I knew this would follow Elizabeth’s video drop and was looking forward to it. I’ve been a long time watcher of both channels, and both are my go to for informative reaction and analysis videos. I just really respect the vibe from you both, where you are both knowledgeable but are honest and real. When you don’t know, you say that! And don’t speak down on anything. Cheers!
Not gonna lie I teared up watching it because as someone who has listened to primal vocalists for 20+ years and had the argument with friends, family and strangers saying there is no talent, it's just noise and it's so unhealthy. I agree that argument died the day this video dropped and I am so excited for the final research to be put together. It kind of makes me excited for the future of primal vocals as well and attracting new people to try it and develop their own voice. Elizabeth said I'm the comments that they are doing this with 10 artists but she didn't reveal who yet. My guess would be 1 of Tatiana from Jinjer, possibly Alissa from Arch Enemy because she has done Tea Time with them. She has never heard Knocked Loose or Motionless in White which is disappointing because I would love this analysis be done on Chris and Bryan. Alex Terrible and Dani Filth would also be great subjects imo. So very excited for what to come. I'm glad you did a breakdown of this video because I nerded out and bugged every one in my life about how exciting this is!!!
To be fair, as a result of being a big reaction channels and metal generally being less copyright strike heavy, I imagine they have good contacts at a bunch of the metal labels. So who knows what all artists they may have? I personally hope Tommy Karevik is one and for the fun and because he's also a freak, Devin Townsend.
This is a great video, your insight was really interesting
Appreciate it!
cool analysis
Will has elephant balls for doing this
Elephants have Will balls.
Honestly, surprised Howard Jones hasn't gotten to be a part of this study, since he's both Operatic and Harsh Vocalist. He may also be able to come at this from another end Will may not have, or tie into knowledge from both the Opera side and what matches to Will's approaches to expand the points of info web
He very well could be, I'm sure they have people lined up. I'm just not sure who they've picked.
She did reach out to Alex Terrible and he declined
@@MrJmiller368 I would love a source on that, Google is coming up blank.
@@MrJmiller368I’d like to say I’m surprised he declined but I’m not surprised.
RUclips decided I should watch you after finally getting to The Charismatic Voice's video, LOVED your breakdown sooo much!
I've gone through your videos, saved the bands I know, and noticed you had Opeth, watching after the Linkin Park "In The End", my husband both suggested Heilung, sorry at present I can't find a particular song for the male vocals, they have male/female vocalist "Anoana" is my favorite. You're sooo much fun, Thanks for being You!
Thanks so much for watching!
I'd love it if this research was also done on oliver rae aleiron, dani filth and grimo for starters. Oh and jonny would be great, his vocals on the first (and so far only) serpent of gnosis record were awesome. Oooooh and dickie allen would also be interesting. I also seriously think you'd be an interesting participant as well. There is so much potential in researching more vocalists
Great vid Mark!
Also, would still love for you to react to Horrendous.
"im a very adhd person" What is it with us ADHD or ASD + adhd folk that love to make weird demon sounds. I vocal stim and decided to learn how to turn it into something interesting.
Second comment - would love to see some of you vocal coaching folks to get together for a live stream or multiple to have open discussions on vocalization and technique and just over all thoughts. Would love it.
Not a fan of harsh vocals musically. But I love the science of it. I am patron of TCV. I enjoyed your genuine and honest reaction to it.
Thanks for watching!
@@KardavoxAcademy /wry grin. You are welcome.
I like the terms "source" and "filter"
I think we should replace the terms, "false cord" and "fry" with terms that actually describe what people hear in terms of their differences which is all airflow. what's referred to as "false cord" has a slower air pressure which causes that rumbling sound. What's referred to as "fry" typically has a higher air pressure behind the scream and sounds more static-y, and neither of these screams should really be tied to a specific cartilage imo but rather the airflow type. For example, you can do a false fold fry, which is just the high pressure from a fry scream with the false folds as the source.
Would love to see another TCV and KA crossover! 🤞🏻
Me too, but it's up to them!
I just want to "The Fairy Voice Mother" to join the study to put some insights, because she have a better understant on the matter and she can DO and EXPLAIN what is happening very well
I love Mark just casually demonstrating an impressively high pressure tunnel high with his beard tugging technique.
I see the Baring of Shadows behind you. And something that looks like Iron Maiden's Powerslave.
Aaaaye good eye on baring of shadows! Have a flaming disco sheep! 🔥🪩🐑
The one that looks like powerslave is Final Fantasy XIV: Endwalker
@@KardavoxAcademy Oh damn a flaming disco sheep! The present I never knew I wanted!
Are you familiar with Toni Linke? He's done some pretty interesting dives into all sorts of vocal distortion as well. And he also does some laryngoscopy on himself haha
No, but I definitely have to check it out! Thanks for the heads up!
It was crazy seeing the needles go in
At minute 36, I was wanting see about if they were opening it other people. I left a comment on the page asking about it. Man, I would love to do something like this. But, even seeing other more famous artists would be great too.
On To the Hellfire, Will uses inhales on his pig growls when the music drops out
What is cool is: will Elizabeth and Will have an authorship credit in an academic research paper?
Seriously though, if y'all want to study me doing sounds, needles and all, I will happily buy my ass a plane ticket and hotel stay in Utah
CDL (18-wheeler) teachers prefer people who have never driven a standard clutch before because (apparently) the double-clutch of the transmissions on the trucks are so much different. At least the instructor I knew said this.
Mr. Kardovox someday I will repay you for everything... don't let anybody tell you you're not a class-A vocal instructor. Also I wanted to add that having done cleans for like a year made this much much easier to approach, mainly in that I was fully aware it would probably take a minute to start to "work". Turned out to be alot shorter of a minute than I had thought though! But what I had was very different from any kind of professional training, just did what I did with guitar and put YT music on shuffle/random radios and just kinda played along until I figured it out.
I see Ghost Bath "Moonlover"and Knocked Loose "You Won't Go Before You're Supposed To"
Yooo someone's playing! Hell yeah! For that, not only do you get a custom emoji dance, but also a dancing kirby
🕺🪩💃
RAHHHH GENERIC COMMENT CALLING YOU NAMES because you called Will a pop star 😂
We need a standardized system of vocalization terms and to put them into a textbooks that are used in schools and universities.
So...what you're saying basically...is your qualifications essentially make you a Greybeard from Skyrim, and you teach " The Way Of The Voice".
I just want to learn the unrelenting force, ethereal, clear skies, and slow time shouts.
You're right, that video by Elizabeth was very good, and interesting. Will is a good sport and all around good natured guy. And very humble. Most importantly, he's curious, even about his own voice.
I'm teasing with the Skyrim reference. Rock on man. Great video
Les GOOOO
I love it when people say that harsh vocals are just screaming as hard as you can.
I'm an amateur classical musician, and a year ago I had a piece where I had to "scream in panic fff" for about 15s.
We played it twice, on two following days.
I shot my voice so badly the first time that I was completely unable to do it the second time around.
Screaming in a sustainable way is way more than screaming hard.
It would have been cool to have some training with harsh vocals to get a even more powerful, long, and loud scream!
“You’ll never be Will Ramos” 😂
That was easily a four page entry type of day in my diary.
Could we get a video of Verona going over something in the new bring me the horizon record? My suggestions would be top 10 statues or limousine. Been a fan for a few years and have been enjoying the addition of Verona to the team and would like to see her stance on Oli’s vocals.
She's in Paris right now working on new music, but that's a solid idea! Maybe when she gets back!
Fit for a King with song “End (The Other Side)” please.
These guys are amazing but have amazing songs and they even play amazingly even more when they perform on stage.….
The way I'm hoping it'll go, and there's standards in place that I think will make it happen this way, any scientific paper can be had for free from the author of the paper. However, as you said, those are hard to read and full of a ton of hard to process info. So, Charismatic Voice can build a paid-for course around that information, but I'm sure they'll also release some videos to explain parts of the papers as well. Those would be monetized the same as any other video, so it's win-win for them, and the free version can still be had from the authors of the papers themselves.
I would love to start / join a band
This reminds me of the Breaking Bad episode, "The fry"
Hi Mark, can you analyse Alestorm? Not the grunter, but the singers. He sounds like a pirate (ofc.) but he uses his singing voice while still doing a harsher tone. Maybe this is also up Veronna's aly, but that is something you can decide.
*grabs popcorn*
I believe it would time to separate the art from a person and for you to react/analyze to any song from the album KING by Immortal Disfigurement, if you are able to of course. I've seen you have done one video before a long time ago on CJ but have since taken it down or was taken down. If you did that I understand why but I'd hate that such talent and skill and the actual art behind their new album be overshadowed by his actions in the past. If you are able to do an reaction/analysis on their song sometime in the future that would be super awesome, but if not it's all cool no hard feelings.
As for the songs I'd recommend either King, Crimson Vision or Forevermore, they are all 5min+ songs so there would be a lot to talk about with the fact that CJ is actually a talented vocalist, regardless of what anyone thinks of him as a person.
Oh and if you already mentioned something about this topic in your previous videos and already addressed why you would/wouldn't do this video idea my bad, I haven't seen it I guess
Hope you don't mind me copying the previous comment I left on an older video since I thought it would be seen by you due to it being older
I'd love to see them pull like, George Fischer and Joe Duplantier and Devin Townsend since all of them have been in the game for multiple decades and have very different techniques.
Those are dope choices!
As a self-taught guitar player, I've always taken instructors' advice with a grain of salt. Guitar playing instructors will always tell you to always keep your thumb on the back of the neck and never use it to fret a note, but then you see footage of Jimi Hendrix doing exactly that. I understand discouraging bad technique that's going to cause harm, but if someone figured out something that works for them, who are you to tell them they're doing it wrong? It's like going up to someone with no arms who learned how to play guitar with their feet and telling them "you're doing that wrong." What a crappy thing to say to somebody.
I've recently started learning from RUclips tutorials and on my own how to do harsh vocals, and all the other performers I do it in front of are always so quick to caution me about being careful about how I'm doing it so I'm not doing damage. They can't even tell that I'm using all the proper techniques I've been learning because this is such uncommon knowledge, even among musicians, so I agree I hope that this information becomes more mainstream and harsh vocalists start getting the respect and recognition that they deserve.
Justin Bonitz voice needs to be studied if he hasn’t already.
Mark: ‘I specialize in harsh vocals and clean singing really isn’t my area of expertise.’ Also Mark: literally has one of the most unique and powerful clean singing voices in metal
Hahaha yo thank you so much 🙏
You got it man. Your tone is pristine, yet so powerful. It’s sores over the instrumental and brings such a serene aspect to the music. There is no band out there that sounds like yours, and no voice out there that sounds like yours, at least that I’ve heard.
FALLING IN REVERSE - watch the world burn
FALLING IN REVERSE - "Ronald" (feat. Tech N9ne & Alex Terrible)
FALLING IN REVERSE - "Last Resort (Reimagined)"
Scientists are cute and so are vocalists
For sure, anyone that gets excited about a topic and wants to talk about it gets super cute
Chunguses? Why not Chungi?
Oh shit you're right.
While i laugh too when it happens, i hate when people crudely mimic harsh vocals when im singing them or listening to a metal song. Sorry, that was just random thought.
So they could say they did it first. Like when they first did the camera down the throat. Which "The Zen of Screaming" with Melissa Cross did years ago