7mm Showdown | Part 4 | Ladder Test Results | What are we looking for? | Little Crow Gunworks
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2024
- In this video we analyze our exploratory ladder tests. We chose 3 powders for each of the 4 cartridges and loaded 1 shot at each charge weight in an attempt to find point of impact trends. Which can sometimes lead you to a very consistent load with minimal effort.
We review how this can be a very easy way to determine viability of a given powder and bullet combination, with as little as 10 shots. This can also be a very easy way to explore the potential velocity range of a given bullet and powder combination without committing a ton of resources.
And sometimes, with as little as 10 shots, you can find a finished load that will suit your needs.
I have watched hours and hours of cartridge comparison and load development videos over the years. This is the most 'real" data I have ever seen anyone put forth. I know how much time it takes to put a series like this together, so I just want to thank you for your willingness to share your experience and knowledge. I have been an avid shooter my entire life.. you are the real deal... Thanks again!
Thank you for that. Dale and I set out to do something that nobody else is doing. I think we're getting there. I appreciate your kind words and support.
7 Mag has been my go to rifle for 25 years and I am still learning so much from this series. This was the best so far. Solid data and very revealing.
I have listened to most of the Hornaday podcasts. When they said choose an appropriate powder, charge weight doesn't matter, seating depth doesn't matter, and brass prep doesn't matter I couldn't stay with them. They make it sound like all you do is load up some bullets however you feel like and go zero your rifle. I wish it was that easy.
Agreed.
That’s not what they said, so you should probably go back and watch again.
Make sure your bottle of Hornady kool aid is full too. Take notes because there's always somebody offended by truth. Simply put, hard to combine, case manufacturer, make of primer, powder....., bullet....... and seating depth. And maybe your rifle isn't cloverleaf capable but if you're a hunter, you will dial it in for success.
Hornady can't even LABEL their factory ammo correctly. Just say'n.
@@KB-ld6ql Another person who doesn’t understand statistical significance.
@@Hornet135 HAHAHAHAHA. Go spike your kool aid bed wetter.
Love this series. And your style of testing and explaining.
Tim, excellent as always.
You touched on a few things I noticed, and thought were just flukes in my ladders, so:
1. Thanks for calling out the variances in velocities, and how they're not a guaranteed stable-or-upwards move, as you go up the charge weights. I was worried that I was doing something wrong, and while I may still be, this shows it does happen, and I'm not some inept outlier.
2. Thank you thank you for touching on what you look for - I mentioned it on the last, but I'd gotten some ejector marks on loads that GRT didn't suggest would be over pressure (and I made a few in each group that got there), and was worried that maybe I hadn't cleaned the lube off the cases enough. A second trip with some promising loads, and a much better removal of the lube, also showed me some ejector marks, so it's safe to say I got that as actual pressure indicators and not just method-flaws.
3. Thanks for touching on the rough limit for when you started seeing pressure marks, and reinforcing that while it's not necessarily earth shattering to push up to the ejector rings (not swipes) there's really not enough gain compared to what you're losing - Namely case life, and potentially eventual damage to the rifle.
4. Finally, as always, thank you for stating plainly that you have no explanation for some of the things you showed, like the velocity drops. It's always refreshing when I get to learn from someone with much more experience who is also not afraid to say "I don't know."
I love shooting my 280 ackley, and had been wondering - especially after listening to various (non-Precision) guntubers talking about 'being able to load it up to 7mm rem mag levels' - if I was missing something; very few talk about what they mean by 7mm Rem Mag levels, and seeing it in data format cleared up a lot for me.
It's also helped to temper my expectations; sure, I can take it to 3k fps but it's not super practical, in my particular rifle layout, and as I seem to recall in one of the earlier videos a minimum velocity of 2000fps on impact, that's really helped me refine my expectations further.
I can't thank you enough, excepting maybe to buy that 280 AI when you're done - And I'm just not in a position to by a rifle of that quality at this time, so I'll just have to fall back on the purported 'greatest form of flattery' - Mimicry - and do my best to get close, with what I have, until I can.
All great observations/points Michael. I will be the first one to admit I don't know everything. But I know enough to be dangerous.
I think what people mean is, they can handload a 280AI up to FACTORY 7 Rem Mag ammo velocities. Which has ALWAYS been underloaded by most companies.
You see why we wanted all the same brand of brass. That is all we could do to ensure fairness between cartridges. Because the brass "should" show pressure at nearly the same PSI, no matter the cartridge. That is all we can do to make it "fair". Same brass, same lot of the same primer, same lot of the same bullets, etc.
That way, when I see pressure, that's it. The velocity is what it is, from an unbiased source. Because I don't care what it is. It is what it is.
Yes, I think 2,000fps impact velocity is a good idea with any bullet. If you're shooting an old Barnes TSX hollow point, I would stay above 2300fps.
Thank you for the continued support.
Been thinking 7mag for some time. Bought a rifle. No GRT... Bought a computer. Got components and dies, now the fun begins!
Good job Tim, love the long form content. Hell of a tutor, and good being able to follow along on Gordon's including relating your powder choice and velocities back to charge weights and pressure on GRT. Learning a lot.
Thanks for breaking this down
Thank you for the support. I'm trying to make this stuff digestible and it seems to be resonating with people.
Thank you, for all the work you've put in, and sharing the results. I've learned more in this series than I have in years of the same old information. A complete system to produce the best results.
Had to laugh about the 7mag comments, since I'm a fan of the cartridge. Looking forward to see whats next.
You're welcome Mark! I thought you guys would like that...
Thanks again Tim for the next installment in your 7mm series. Learning more about your process has been fascinating. I love the long videos. Dont feel the need to shorten them when your stuffing great content in. Youre not forcing anyone to watch. I love it!
Thanks Steve! That's my theory. If they don't like the length, they can watch someone else.
Thank you again for the information!
For the 280ai handloaders, RL-16 also works very well. H-4350 and RL-16 are primarily what I feed mine for 160s; both will put 5 under 1/2" at 100yds. While I like both the 7prc and 7mag, I end up carrying a 280ai because it is a lighter rifle; no flies on any of the 7s tested in this series.
All great points.
Good to see the love for my favorite powder 4831sc
I was pleasantly surprised to see you bragging it up since i had found on my own that it was awesome
Its awesome to see its not just me
It is certainly not just you. It's fantastic powder.
WOW 77 years old and was focused like back in the college days, great work Tim ! I have reloaded since I was 8 years old. at age 16 po ackley built a 257 ai for me and had to fire form brass to get it to shoot. we did not have choreographs, just shot for groups but life was good. I have the 280 ai, and the 7 prc and will be taking careful notes. I have alway use the 300 win mag instead of 7 mag, hunting Alaska due to the heavier bullets for the bulldozer size brown bears. just never needed the big 7, but I think it is better than the 7prc. I ran a trapline and live the bush life for over ten years. keep going with this, I know your right about barrel tuning. I bet Eric cortina would agree. will be waiting for the next step!
Thanks Otto! All of these 7's are great. You just need to pick the right tool for the job.
I think we might have been better off WITHOUT chronographs. They have been the cause of many great loads being cast aside, because the extreme spread didn't meet someone's expectations.
I KNOW Erik Cortina agrees. He's not the only one.
Great information! Really appreciate you guys doing this -Thanks
I also appreciate Speedy and Erik.
You're welcome James!
Sweet video! Just finished powder testing for my 7prc 160cx, 24inch barrel,adg brass. 3 powders 4831sc,7828ssc and h1000. For my gun h1000 won! 15 shot average 3,102 fps! I really enjoy load work ups!
Thanks Chad. That's pretty spicy for a 24" barrel with ANY powder.
You might be a candidate for case head separation or worse. If you wanted a 28 Nosler you should have bought one instead.
It's a good Friday night! Can't wait to watch
Thanks for the support!
Neat work Tim, well done!!!
Thank you! Cheers!
I want to say thanks for all the great info. I just picked up a new 7PRC with 26” barrel and I’m excited to use this info to develop my elk load for the upcoming season. I’ve always used ELDX but I’m now trying the CX with the 7828SSC I have thanks again and keep up the great work.
You're welcome. Thank you for the support.
With a 26" barrel, CX and 7828, that thing is gonna shoot. Enjoy!
There you go again proving your self right😉
Great knowledge backed info leading to great breakdown of results. Well done Tim.
Thanks Jared!
Thanks Tim! Lots of great information to chew on. I will be buying some 4831sc for my 7mags. Excellent series!
Fantastic! Thank you for the support.
Works for me H4831 sc 154gr hornady interlock for hunting. Took some time to figure it out but Worth the time . Browning x-bolt 7 rem mag.. thanks for the good info. Dave
Thank you! I have no problem with the length of the video, I actually like the detail. I went with the 7 PRC because of the lack of a belt, even though the 7mm MAG has always been a great cartridge. An eye opener on the velocities and sweet spots! Thank you again.
You're welcome! Thanks for the continued support!
Loving this. Thanks man.
Happy to help!
So excited for this!
It only gets better from here.
Awesome testing!
Just wait...
I don't compete but regarding ball powders, I've used a few off and on for 35 years. In 2022 I bought some Superformance for 2 reasons. 1. It was an 8 pound jug and was priced at $265, 2. I've heard a lot about the velocities you get with it. (Plus it was still Covid times so you get what you can). It has worked so well and so impressively in my hunting rifles it's now my go-to for 110 Barnes, 130 Barnes, 129 Barnes in 270 Win at 3320fps for the 130s or faster depending on the rifle and barrel length, 140 and 150 Nosler btip in 280 Remington right at 3250fps, 280AI with 139 Barnes LRX at 3300fps, 300WSM with 150 TSX. I tagged multiple deer with all of these except the 280AI which I just completed testing about a month ago. Also have 110 Barnes TTSX for 270 Win over H414/W760. Inside 600 yards these 2 ball powders have served me well so I'll continue to use them until I find a reason not to. Again, I'm only hunting, not competing.
🕵️♂️ Norma 204 powder will get you 3,500 ft/s with Those 110 grain 270 bullets! Zeroed at 350 yards, it means +/- 4.5 " out to 400 yards and 15" of drop at 500 yards with the 270 Winchester (Every Bit as Good as the 280 AI, But With Less Powder and Recoil)! 😎
I always shot a ladder test but you definitely educated me way more. I've got some more testing to do. Thanks, a lot for this info.
Ladder tests are fine. But this test allows you to explore a few different powders BEFORE you commit to a full ladder test.
Gets better with each video! Great info to absorb. Look forward to each new episode. You may get a little snarl from the “Big Red” followers. Thanks Tim!
Thanks John!
Well done! I do similar tests on my f-class rifles using a shot marker. I do find it interesting that, for example, the guys in Europe can settle on a given load, then when that power becomes available in the US, I will settle in just a tenth or so of what they found and be lights out.
That's not an accident.
MANY F-Class shooters test like this, but they do it at farther ranges. But most guys watching this are average level shooters. For them, testing past 100yds introduces too much noise to sift through.
Really enjoying this series. Enjoying all your videos. I’ve only been hand loading for about 5 years , I load for 7mm08, 280 Rem, 280ai, so it’s really interesting and helpful for me. Started playing around with GRT. Any chance you could go in depth about little more on how to use it right? Not quite understanding the initial pressure data when I adjust the length of the bullet. Keep the long videos coming, love them. Thanks Tim
I agree. I've been dinking around with GRT and I think a good tutorial video, especially one as in-depth as these videos are, would be extremely helpful.
Agree! I’m getting quite different results with my 7 mag to what GRT is saying. So I must be doing something wrong with data entry??
Love this videos Tim. Awesome info. Thanks.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm debating doing a Gordons video, but I'm not sure if we "should". Lots of liability for a charitable cause.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Sure hope you can find a way with zero liability coming back to LCG as you have that thing down pat. Either way, this is a great series.
@@LittleCrowGunworksI understand. I’ve been playing with it more and maybe figuring it out a little better. One thing I’ve noticed with my 280ai Peterson brass is, there is a difference in case capacity from brand new brass to brass that has been fired 3 or more times. Loading brand new brass using capacity data from brass that’s been fired a few times seems to get me more pressure, seems like by a lot. Thanks again. Really enjoying this series.
Great video! I’m nerding out on this series so much!
Happy to have ya Jack.
I'm learning so much from this series. I wish I had access to this information years ago. The videos may be long, but they don't feel like they are when I'm watching, trying to soak it all up like a sponge. lol
Glad you like them! We appreciate the support!
Excellent, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Another great video. Love using the GRT but running into issues of getting appropriate powders locally that matches up with bullets in house. The sweet spot is very interesting.
Great excuse to buy a ladder testing scope. lol
It's not the only way to find a load. But its the most effective way I have found so far.
Good stuff keep it going
Thanks Jeff, I plan on it!
Fascinating stuff
Stick with us. It's going to get very interesting from here.
I'm shocked... I'm shocked I tell you! So the 280 AI is really good for the amount of powder you're burning. It's burning on average about 10 gr less than a 7mm PRC and only has a 50 FPS difference. Moral of the video is get a 280 AI... or if you want velocity get a 28 Nosler.
Record … broken… but you’re not wrong! 🤪
I just bought a 280 AI last week. I’m never looking back. ITS THE BEST ALL AROUND CARTRIDGE. Hell, it even sounds different when fired. I’m just stunned. It’s truly the “ Goldilocks cartridge”. If only all factories would make it a standard load. If people are concerned about recoil, my 270 win “kicks” harder and the 280 AI IS BETTER AND IS SO MILD SHOOTING, it’s just an awesome cartridge. I can’t believe I didn’t try it sooner. I could’ve saved A LOT OF MONEY.
😁 Your Comming Along Quite Nicely Austin! 👍Notice What Powders Did Well and What Components He Used - The Powders I Already Recommend To You For Both Magnum and Non-Magnum Cartridges! 😜
Show me on the doll where 7 PRC touched you...
👨🏫 Experience Matters Austin and You Want To Take Advice From Those That Do This For a Living! Experienced Gunsmiths, Shooters, and Hunters Know What Works and What Doesn't! Note His Latter Test Methods and That He Isn't Shooting 3 Shot Groups Either! 🤭
I find it absolutely fascinating that all three 7 Mag powders show a sweet spot at exactly the same velocity. And the 7PRC essentially the same thing.
I did too. It's looking like that is where both guns want to shoot.
Great test.I have a new 7 mag barrel im breaking in.have only tried one powder when fire-forming ..shot twenty shots with a 1" agg..going to try h4831sc ladder next. ive been testing with 145 lrx bullets.speed is good out of a 26.5" barrel .thanks for you shareing your testing..
Happy to help, thanks for following along!
Good stuff 👍🏻 thank you for your effort and willingness to share knowledge.
I hope your plan is overtime to add more data to this series. I would love to see 7mm wby and 7mm RPM added overtime
Thank you for the support. We may or may not be adding to THIS particular series later. What is more likely is that we will be doing other series on other families of cartridges. Based on case volume, the 7 WBY is about identical to the 7 Rem Mag and a 7 RPM would be halfway between the 7 PRC and the 7 Rem Mag. Those two cartridges in particular, would be kind of redundant. Thanks for watching.
Thanks,,,,,thanks for the amount of time ,component's youve burned thru,,,and my favorite "zero bullshit "!!
You're welcome! Thanks for the positive feedback Shawn.
Very interesting results, thank you for the time and resources spent to carry out this testing.
I am looking forward to the next video. I watched the previous three videos as well, all great content.
I know you touched on the rifle builds in a previous video and how you were keeping the builds as similar as possible. I assume all the rifles were chambered to the SAAMI specs for each cartridge. I don’t recall if you stated that, but figured that was the case to keep the playing field level.
You're welcome. Thank you for the positive feedback. Yes, all SAAMI chambers, and for the reason you pointed out.
LETS GOOOOO! 🇺🇸🎯
HA!
I like spherical powders in my 28 nosler. Ramshot LRT is good with the 195’s. High velocity and good accuracy so far. Spherical is suppose to burn cooler than extruded but not sure with this. I also have great success with 2000mr in 308 with 180’s and 168’s. Great velocity and accuracy. 5 shots one ragged hole with the 168. And accurate 2015 works great for accuracy in my 458 win mag lol
Thank you!
You're welcome!
Just grabbed some 4831sc for my 280ai. And some eld match’s. Just shooting steel with these. Hope my groups are S tight as what you’ve been getting
Stick with my strict protocol for the test and it's highly likely you will find something that shoots. you MIGHT have to try more than one powder, but you'll find something.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Tim, Vihtavouri is not as common where I am at, but I have Varget, IMR Accurate and H4350s, as well as shooters world precision and long rifle to work through. I ran a few through the gun in the last few days and have some potentials already. I appreciate your efforts to get the information in our hands to use in our situations. I have changed quite a bit of my approach since watching this and your 22 nosler videos.
I appreciate the feedback. Yeah if VV isn't convenient for you to use, you can use other things. I'm glad you're making some progress with my method. You're not alone. I'm glad folks are finding it helpful.
Just loaded 66.1 gr. N560 with the 160gr. CX. Warm not hot. No click and no ejector Mark! Honest 1/2 inch 3 shot group. Terminus Zeus action, 26 inch Proof barrel. 3130 fps average, 6.7 ext. Sped.
Had click at 66.5 gr. And very slight Mark with correct light.
Frickin' send it!
Great advice on the primers. I bought a shed load before the lockdowns and ever since everything just uses that one type of primer. So hard to find anything.
That's the right approach. One large consistent lot is better than a mish mash of lots and brands.
Another great video. I’m definitely learning more about different things to do and try. I really appreciate all your time in making them and in explaining everything in great detail. I just got a 7 PRC in a 22” pipe. I really thought the “faster” end of the powders would work the best with the shorter barrel. I got the best velocity, groups, and ES & SD’s with RL-26 and Retumbo. That kinda goes against what I was understanding. Does that make any sense to you? Thanks again
Thank you for the positive feedback. You should have 100% burn at peak pressure with RL-26, but not with Retumbo.
If that's what is working, go ahead and use it. Just because I wouldn't use it, doesn't mean you can't.
Great job. Been working with A4350 with my 280ai/160's. Very promising. Shooting very small at 2950. Dont really see a reason to run out and get a 7prc.
That's about where we landed with these 3 powders. Nah, if you're already loading for the 280AI, there is a trivial velocity advantage to go to a 7 PRC.
I've been reloading only a short time but have independently landed on about the same results you have shared as far as powder and what matters. My go to is H4831SC in a 30 cal. I run 7828 in quarter bores.
Both great choices.
Another excellent video. Thanks for taking the time to do this testing and sharing the results with us. Sorry if I missed it, what bullet did you use?
160 cx
Thanks for the feedback. See ya on the next one. Yep, 160gr CX
Thenks from Swiss
Our pleasure!
Watch Erik’s video with Hornady lately. They go into that pretty well. And Jayden admittedly didn’t follow the tuner directions when they did those tests too. Plus we know it works and is a “real thing”. The data is there, but for most shooters (95+%) there are bigger knobs to turn to get results. This stuff is past most people’s understanding and skill level. BTW. I’m in this group too. But I’m learning, testing and growing. Thanks for the help with this.
ditto, agreed
Correct. Miles is right, the biggest levers are powder and bullet choice. Most of what I'm talking about is "fringe" stuff that is beyond most people. As I said in the video description for part 3, this isn't beginners reloading. This is Masterclass level stuff that ASSUMES that you have the ability to produce PERFECTLY consistent ammo and you just need help tuning.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Yes Miles, would likely say the same thing as you do. But this fringe stuff is what makes this endeavor to find the best combo rewarding. When we interpret the data and arrange the bullets, seating depth, and powder, etc. according to that data we win!.
Agreed. The other thing we have to keep in mind is that Hornady is using all Hornady components and performing most of their testing in a 200yd indoor tunnel. That doesn't translate well to ANY outdoor shooting, especially long range shooting.
Tim, I've been following along on your 7mm series, they are fantastic and probably some of the most valuable information Ive ever seen. Great Job! Quick question in Part 3, you were using the 175 ELD-X in your Gordon's Reloading program example. In Part 4, did you do your latter work up in the 7mm showdown with CX 162 bullets or 175 ELD-X? I know you prefer the CX. Thanks for all your informative information Sir! If I missed this in the video I apologize and will go back and review it.
He used the 160 CX; Gordon passed away and no one's been able to get in and continue his work, so Tim (likely) used the 170-series as a baseline to model as best he could, then modified based on his own data.
You can do it that way, or you can set up your own data for a bullet (like I did).
Thanks Dave! All this testing was shot with the 160CX.
To be fair, Hornady does say to pick a charge weight that shoots well. They say that charge weight doesnt matter with regard to velocity ES/SD.
If you listen to them talk about it in enough different videos, they say what I said. Yes, they also say, es levels out if the sample size gets large enough.
Thanks for the invaluable information.
A couple questions would be, do you find much difference in velocity potential from barrel to barrel, or do some barrels give more velocity without adding pressure?
Also, what kind of target camera would you recommend?
Thanks again for the info that translates to the real world.
You're welcome. You can't add velocity without adding pressure. They go hand in hand. If one barrel is faster than the other, it's because there is more friction and therefore more pressure and therefore more velocity.
@LittleCrowGunworks That's exactly what I thought.
But, of course, as with everything firearm related, peope that don't know much seem to love sharing their opinions.
Not to say I've never said something wrong myself from time to time.
WOW
Just wait...
😃 Don't Be "Shocked" Austin! The 280 AI is an "All Time Great Cartridge" and - Depending Upon What You Are Trying to Do - the 30-06 Family is a Very Efficient and Practical Choice For Hunting For Most People! 🤑 Note That The 7mm Remington Magnum is Competing Well Against the 7mm prc - Even Though I Was "Laughed to Scorn" For Suggesting That When The 7mm prc First Came Out! 🤪
The 7PRC will not replace the 7 Rem Mag. The 7 Rem Mag is very accurate and faster than the 7PRC because of its capacity. However if you want to shoot very heavy LEAD CORE bullets go with the 7PRC. But who wants to shoot lead core bullets at big game? Not me.
😁 Actually, the 277 Sig Fury Will Lead to a "New Generation of Cartridges" That Will Replace Them ALL! And, a 270 Shall Lead Them (The "Savior" of the Cartridge World) ...Into a New Era of Thinking and Performance! 😜
I hope this is a joke... LOL. The 277 Sig Fury will forever be a lead balloon. A shining example of "Don't fix what isn't broke."
🤣 I Am Happy to See That You Read Your Comments! Plus, I Enjoy "Pushing The Buttons" of 7mm Owners Now and Again! But, in All Seriousness, What is Wrong With Using a Cartridge That Uses Higher Pressures and Smaller Powder Volumes to Push a Bullet Faster? Engineering (I Am One) Advancements in Case Design (Materials Changes in Case Strength) May Very Well Change the Industry and Improvements Could Eventually Make All These Bigger Magnum Cartridges "Obsolete" For Hunting North American Big Game! 😱 We "Fix" What Can Be "Improved"! 😜
It's not along term solution. It's not just the case you have to worry about. The case integrity is the least of your concerns. The barrel life is a much bigger problem. That little extra pressure that the Sig generates, will cut the barrel life to 1/3 of what it otherwise would be. If you're an engineer you know that nothing is free. There is a compromise somewhere.
Yes I was cackling. 7 mag all day.
@@BigT27295 you're not alone.
🕵️♂️ Remember What My Favorite Powder Austin? Temperature Stable H4831SC! Now, While You Are Having Good Success With Reloader 22, Go Calculate How Much Velocity You Are Losing - When The Temperature Drops From Room Temperature to -20F During Hunting Season Here in Montana! 😱 Yep! 😜
Thumbs up again! I’m curious why not use N565 for the other magnums. The fill seems better than the N560 using the sim.
That's my main accurate powder for 175 grainers out of my 7 PRC. I get a 98.2% fill and 100% burn @ 2925fps out of my 22" Proof barrel.
@@thebleeb1681 nice!! This info is appreciated!!! TYVM.
I wanted to do that, but N565 is a touch too slow for the 7 PRC.
@@LittleCrowGunworks thank you for always responding. You are appreciated.
So here’s my questions on this video.
1. You stopped short of pressure with the 7 PRC using 4831SC. You mentioned it was due to velocity, yet with the 7 REM you take it up to 3100, where you actually had signs of pressure. Why?
2. My second question would be this; is velocity a sign of over pressure? If you’re not getting flowing brass, a hard bolt, flattened primer, and that sort of thing, why wouldn’t you continue?
3. I pushed my 212 grain ELDX to 3158 in my 300 PRC before I saw pressure (ejector mark). I backed it off 2 grains and had no signs of pressure anywhere and it’s still shooting 3030 ft./s. This is still higher than what Hornady and others have recommended but I know their manuals are conservative. Is this safe?
Gordon put the pressure to high and he had good accuracy and speed and stopped as you should. And he didn’t hit pressure on 7 mag at the 3152 with 7828. But it was getting erratic on bullet placement. Remember he is seeking precision not a speed demon. 28 nosler is the speed demon.
You can be over pressure without pressure signs on your brass...that's where grt is helpful
He did say you could push them faster with a cost to brass life. And I think he said he only loaded to max. I don’t know where he got his info. But his information was very thorough
Hey Ed,
1. If you watch carefully, I hit pressure on 2 of the 3 powders with the 7 PRC and only 1 of the 3 with the 7 Rem Mag. So you're first point/question is slightly off.
I didn't push the 7PRC and H4831SC to the max because I have limited brass to work with and I didn't have any higher charge weights with me. Same goes for the 7 REM Mag with 7828SSC and N560. I didn't hit peak pressure there either. They had room to go, even at 3152 and 3111 respectively.
2. Hard bolt lift is WAY too far over pressure. Flat primers are not a reliable sign of pressure. Flowing brass is a pretty consistent sign of pressure. But it was only one shot per charge weight. Not a great sample size. If I have sweet spots to test, there isn't value, for me, in going back and loading 1 or two charge weights higher, and coming back to shoot them on a different day, just to find out what I already know. I'm near the top.
3. When you told me about your 300 PRC the first time, I said that was way over pressure. In fact, it is one of the MOST overpressure loads I have ever heard of. I would guess near 80,000psi. I wouldn't consider that safe under any circumstances.
Even coming down to 3030fps is at the ragged edge of safety. Probably near 70,000psi.
Keep in mind the factory ammo with the 212gr is at 2860fps in a 24" barrel. You're WAY over that.
With the 7 PRC, we are around 3000 to 3060fps with the 160 CX in a 26" barrel. Which is EXACTLY where the factory ammo velocity is with that bullet. Not only on the box, but in reality. I already shot it. Box, actual and handloads...ALL THE SAME VELOCITY.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Tim, thanks for the response. I’m not sure what to believe anymore on pressure to be honest. I have never had a hard bolt lift on my 300 PRC even when I was running 3160. It was just very slight ejector marks. My primers were not flat either. Then the other end of this is everyone says Hornady is very conservative along with the other bullet makers and it’s all due to insurance and lawyer concerns. So who knows what to believe. I’m just learning and trying to keep it all safe yet fun.
I do know I have a shit ton of jump in my 300 PRC. And I think it was done that way so I could run higher velocities. I don’t know, but it shoots very well and very accurate all around. You said, as did others, that Weatherby does that as well to help with pressure concerns.
And I often wonder how does a 28 Nosler or the 300-7 and those type of cartridges stay safe when they’re such overbore cartridges?
But I’m getting off on a tangent and away from the subject matter so I’m gonna shut up now.
Tim,
Made a few red deer harvests with copper, pass throughs and soup inside. Completely agree with your philosophy.
Question is, will the 160cx stabilize in a 1:9" rem mag factory barrel? Getting mixed opinions on first 200 stability...cheers
According to Hornady, no - they indicate a 1:8 or faster, but don't publish data for it in anything but a 7PRC currently - the only 'factory' round that is set at a 1:7
Michael has it right. For a 1:9 I would try the 145 LRX.
Do you recommend an arbo press to seat bullets or a redding
You don't need an arbor press for nearly any application. Standard dies are more than adequate.
This 7mm playlist says one of the videos is "unavailable". Do you know which one it is? Slowly working through the series. Really helpful stuff for people of all experience levels!
@@Ca_Tule_Ninja thanks for the positive feedback. None of the videos are unavailable. I don't know why it says that. They are all viewable.
What would be best in a 20 inch barrel for suppressor use? Got a bartlein carbon itching to get chambered
He talked to that in #2 too much velocity loss with short barrels. Ie waste of time sorry..
Yeesh. It depends on action length and bolt face size.
I would love to see you do this test then cut the barrel and run it again. Test that theory that a 24 inch would tighten up around 3005 fps!
You're buying! LOL. We can't cut the Carbon Fiber barrels down either.
Some folks been talking about using slightly faster powders / bullet weight with mono bullets. In this testing have you noticed a advantage, speed or precision?
I don't think there is an advantage of one over the other.
Tim, did you use virgin brass for this initial testing? Just curious, thanks
Yes.
What's the chambering of the 7 RM? Is it Saami or wildcat? If it's not Saami will it fit in magazines? This is a great series!
It is SAAMI, but may have issues with some shorter magazines.
Thanks for the support.
Thanks you. Keep em coming!
Regarding barrel heat, when does barrel heat begin to affect POI? How hot do you let your barrel get during load testing?
The largest factor of when barrel heat affects POI is barrel diameter. The thinner the barrel, the sooner it will be affected by barrel heat. When I shoot these 10 shot tests, I use a chamber chiller for 2 minutes between shots. So it takes almost a half hour to shoot one of these 10 shot tests.
If I'm testing a second powder, I use the chiller for 10+ minutes between ladders, in an effort to get the rifle back to ambient temperature.
With a new barrel do you need to shoot 100rnds before load testing or can you do it from the first shots?
Great question. I recommend starting load development AFTER you have 100 rounds on the barrel. You can start the load development when the barrel is new, as I did with these rifles, but the velocity WILL migrate, and you need to be prepared to deal with that and not be intimidated/frustrated/discouraged by it.
In a new gun, how much barrel break-in needs to happen before you do these 10 shot tests? Do you thoroughly clean the barrel and then do a fouling shot before each 10 shot exercise?
I will cover this in future videos but we don't "break in" barrels. We just shoot them. I would say you want at least 2 boxes down the barrel before you shoot this test. And I wouldn't clean it either. Clean it after you buy it. Then don't clean it again for the first hundred rounds. Most rifles will settle down after a box or two. Then they will change a little until you have 200 rounds on the barrel. After that, they change VERY little.
What if your rifle has a manual ejector instead of a spring-loaded ejector? What do you look for in terms of initial pressure signs?
(Asking for a friend/Fudd…)
cratered primers would be an easy pressure sign to see. And the Model 70 has a cut out ejector notch where the brass would flow doesn't it?
@@gilream primers can tell a story, but the rifle’s headspace can affect how soon pressure signs show up. I think Erik Cortina said something about stopping as soon as there is resistance opening the action. However, you have to disassemble the bolt for that to work in any rifle that cocks on open (like most do).
The cutout in the boltface will still leave a mark, even on manual ejector actions. We are using both styles in this series. The only difference in the ejector mark is the shape.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Thanks! I guess I’ve never pushed my loads for a bolt action hard enough to see that. I have seen ejector marks in semiauto rifles (M1A specifically).
What are your thoughts on having a magneto chronograph attached while conducting the ladder test? Would it still give us the info needed?
Thanks for all your knowledge. Developed three different loads for my 7mm Rem Mag Tikka and looking forward to getting to the range. Barnes 145 LRX, Barnes 150 TTSX, and Hornady 150 CX. All loaded with H4831SC. 10 shots each with varying powder weights in .4 increments.
I personally don't have any experience with the Magneto, but I think it would screw up the harmonics by hanging something on the barrel. You could still shoot this test without a chronograph. Then shoot the sweet spots and see if they group well, THEN check the velocity.
@@LittleCrowGunworksagreed! Appreciate your response
My experience using a magneto speed seems to shift the point of impact. Still shot good groups but poi changed.
Come on Part 5!
I'm trying man... So much to do!
@@LittleCrowGunworks you're doing a great job! Keep it going.
So true. Using "velocity driven" load development is dumb. Let the target impacts tell you what the load is doing, not the velocity flat spots. Why not just do the OCW method? It's wicked easy to do and see the results.
This is an abbreviated OCW. Wait for the whole method. It's very similar. This method assumes you haven't selected a powder AND don't know the "working range" for any of the powders. It's exploratory, not definitive.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Not really. OCW pays no attention to the muzzle velocity OR the SD/ES. Once you found the sweet spot with OCW, then you go get your average MV, and you're done. There's ZERO need to take a chronograph to the range for the OCW method.
I know what OCW is, it's similar. I'm more concerned with point of impact than velocity. However, I personally think doing ANY load development without a chronograph is dumb. Even if it's a seating depth test. More data is better than less data.
If you do an OCW test and find a load that shoots super small but it's 200fps slower than a load with a different powder that shoots double the group size. I will take the faster one every single time. Because it has higher hit probability.
But if you don't use a chronograph, you don't know that.
I am not sure if I missed this in the video but at what distance do you shoot the ladder test?
@user-mo5oz1em2i
100yds. Any farther and you're introducing wind and shooter error. It makes the test too difficult to read unless you're very experienced doing the test and a top level shooter.
What grain bullet you shooting in 7mm prc
All is 160 CX go watch the previous videos.
Yep, 160gr CX for all rifles.
Ball powder is also not as stable as it has nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin instead of just nitrocellulose!
Many extruded powders are double base as well. But they are WAY more consistent/predictable in my experience.
A sample size of ONE SHOT PER POWDER CHARGE??? WTF? You are a stunning example of confirmation bias. Hornady's point is this - IF YOU DID THAT SAME TEST TEN TIMES you MIGHT have some truly vallid data. ONE FREAKKING.SHOT PER CHARGE WEIGHT???? NOT SO MUCH. BTW, I have NO trouble with ladder tests, just the STATSICALLY INSIGNIFICANT way you are going about it.
Sounds like you work for a bullet manufacturing company! With top notch components, top notch equipment and an elite scale to weigh powder with I feel that one shot ladders are meaningful. Why not wait and see the end results before you nuke this technique? I think you could possibly end up with egg on your face sir.
Sick'em Mike. They don't know, what they don't know.
That's right. One shot per charge weight. F-Class guys do this EXACT test at 1,000 yards but only care about vertical. Are they wrong too?
Did you even watch Part 3?
I SAID IT WAS STATISTICALLY IRRELEVANT AND EXPLORATORY. Wait for the whole process. You don't even know where I'm headed with this. You're making assumptions. This test allows you to EXPLORE powders without getting overly committed to one powder.
@@LittleCrowGunworks If this guy had watched your other videos he would have already known that you respond to 90% of the comments here.
@gilream Rumor has is he's still running. Maybe he's the local yokel at the bar. He should stay there too. Read and watch it all first or just prove to everyone that you have no comprehension.