Thank you for this content. I am a small-town teacher with an interest in shooting and hunting. I live in PA and a far shot for me is 300 yards. I dont have near the time to devote to learning what I need to become the best shot. I like to think I am a decent shot and that I am constantly learning and improving every time I do get to the range. You breaking down bc, es, and dispersion here and how they effect hunting ranges was the best I have ever seen. I dont have access to all the technology you do, to do this kind of resource. Based on what I can gather through RUclips, Facebook groups, the free hornady app, I had come up with the same answer to what bullet I wanted to shoot out of my 7mm prc. I bought the gun to have a gun that can knock down bigger game. To me you always want 2 holes in an animal. Interlock is a great bullet but does handicap you due to the lower bc. Being a novice to reading wind, the gain I get by having a bit higher bc means everything right now. I'm not an eldx fan due to the close nature of my typical shots in pa but did like that they had higher bc. After your explanation I'm solidly convinced to just stuck with the cx bullet and work up a load my rifle likes with a decent es and dispersion and then practice more and worry less how to shrink those numbers.
Thank you for that Matt. We wanted to set a new standard for how these comparisons are done. As a teacher, you know that most raw information without context is at best, incomplete and at worst, meaningless or counterproductive. In reality, you have to make compromises no matter what bullet you choose. The CX has the least compromises for a hunting bullet. People don't realize that you have to choose bullets for your specific application. There is no best choice for ALL applications. In the woods, you shouldn't be using a 175 ELDX. It's the wrong choice. I agree, 2 holes is always best and yes and ELDX will explode at close range and high velocity, I've done it. The 7 PRC and a CX is point and shoot out to 300yds. Favor 6 inches into the wind if you're shooting 300yds in high wind (15mph+). But otherwise, don't even worry about it. Aim for the vitals and let'er rip. Get out and practice when you can. If that elk hunt comes someday, you'll be ready. Thanks again for the support.
Absolutely! The only down fall to lead free bullets I really see is when I shoot steel, it doesn't leave a black mark that I can easily see. That is actually the only reason I don't use them.
Yes, absolutely agree! The context of these videos and where you want to take them. Hunters are to receive a great eye opening education. Your first graph you showed, put the heat to the meat. I hope people watch these videos wanting to gain some knowledge. Blessings your way my friends.
I love it when super knowledgeable people share their hard earned knowledge for anyone to see. I know it's no substitute for experience, but getting accurate and granular data can shorten the curve if people comprehend the meaning of the data and apply it appropriately. I wish I had a longer range. Living in the Appalachian mountains makes it tricky to find places to reach out there. I'll be watching for the next video in the series. I love that you're using saami spec chambers, it makes it more accessible to the average Joe. I just picked up my (deceased) uncles old Winchester model 94 in 30-30 from my brother for $200. It was just rusting in his storage closet. I've been wanting a wood stocked lever gun, but don't want to spend $1000. I had no idea he had it until today. I can't wait to bring it back to life. Cheers Ben
Thank you for that Ben. That was my point. My goal is to push you along that curve whether you're ready or not. I think that's what everyone wants when they watch YT videos. But they're not getting it most of the time. They get the same regurgitated paper numbers that are unfounded and have no meaning without context. Yeah we decided that we can still make our points with saami chambers. Then the average Joe knows what's possible. Good luck with the 94 project. See ya on the next one.
Well David, you win the unofficial "Comment Contest". First with the Mt. Stupid comment, which had me cackling like a madman and now this. I never thought I would reach a point in my life where a stranger would draw a parallel between me and Jordan Peterson on any metric. For me personally, there isn't a better compliment you could give me. I'm honored, thank you.
Well, i have spent a lot of time energy and money focusing on the wrong aspects of shooting. Frustrated to the point of wanting to give up by my inability to develope the perfect load for my 280ai. Chasing high BC's low SD's and (what i was told) must have 1/2 inch groups. This information makes a lot of sense. I am changing my focus at the reloading bench, and at the range. After all hunting is my focus not punching paper. Thanks-
Thanks you for the insight David. I did the same thing. The method I developed usually results in what you have been chasing (high velocity, 1/2" or better and ES under 15 for 3 shots) and I intend to share it with all of you. But it took me thousands of shots fired in load development to figure out what works. The hard truth is that, although the perfect load DOES HELP hit probability, if you can't read wind to within a couple miles per hour and get a good range...all that precision gets lost in the wash. When you see all the useless talking points/drop chart comparison videos, they don't tell you that. Yes the High BC drifts less, but that doesn't mean you get to suck at wind reading and still hit stuff. You still have to put in the work.
Well I made it through the video only to realize that I am at the thought I knew but I actually know so little stage😆 I have managed to avoid the new cartridge hype when I added a few rifles to my collection. Instead of going the PRC route I chose a Sako Precision in 7mm REM Mag and a Sako Hunter in .308. I then added a Tikka T3X in 7mm-08 for my deer rifle. Where I hunt in northern Ontario my typical shot for deer is 50-100 yards and for moose 100-300 yards. I enjoyed the video and I’m looking forward to seeing the rest of the series. Knowledge is power. I like your direct no bullshit approach don’t change!
Well at least you can admit it. Most won't even make it THAT far. It sounds like what you're running works for your applications. I'm glad you're enjoying it. I have no intention of changing my approach. It's in short supply.
I met Tim a little over a year ago at Dale’s when I bought my first custom rifle. I’m fortunate to live in the same town Little Crow Gunworks has it shop. I went from an average 100 yard shooter to now a year later being able to hit a 16” X 24” steel plate at 900 yards! Trust me when I say, this guy knows his stuff and I’m Proof that if you apply what he tells you to your shooting format it will change the way you shoot forever. Thanks Tim
Joe, I don't want this to be a public love fest, but you are the ideal student. Despite being around 20 years my senior, you don't question everything I say. You be quiet, focus and LISTEN. Then, you make sure you grasped what I said, you go process and apply it without questioning it and hey, it works. If you weren't an eager and willing student, I would have stopped helping you a long time ago. So, you deserve just as much credit as I do. "When the student is ready, the teacher appears." I have encountered many different people that immediately start disputing what I say, and I say to myself: "They're not ready." and I just shut up and let them go flounder about. Thank you for the kind words and for appreciating and applying my process.
Great info there, no BS, concise and we as ethical hunters needed to understand, man l’m still at the bottom of that hill after 50yrs of hunting/shooting , still learning every day cheers from NZ.
Can you share thoughts on 7mm 175 Accubond or the 175 Accubond long range bullets? I do understand that you consider the monolithic your bullet of choice. You really didn't address bonded bullets. Great video, thanks for sharing.
WOW as a 77 year old hunter with over 50 years of reloading experience I have a learned a lot in this video. rifle builder randy Selby has similar view points on the big push of high BC bullets. down right lie in the marking scam. I have used partition bullets on grizzly and moose with great success, but that was the best we had forty years ago. looking forward to more of your great content.
Thanks Otto! The fact that you're 77 and still searching for new information is very inspiring to me. We have a client that comes in often, he's retired. At some point he says "Man, I learn something new every time I come in here." Partitions STILL kill stuff just fine. They don't exit on those big critters, but it kills just fine. Thanks for joining the adventure!
Thank you very much for your statistical analysis. In any endeavor it’s important to know when you’ve reached “good enough”. The point of diminishing returns for BC surprised me - I had guessed it was a much higher BC. In addition, it’s clear that BC just doesn’t matter at 300 yards and it. The shocker though was the incremental benefit from the 0.050” rifle. Clearly a 3/4 MOA rifle is good enough.
Exactly. Most of the other channels you watch, they don't tell you that. Why? Because they don't know this stuff. They don't analyze things this way. It's WAY easier to just say "more is better". Know what I mean? You need the highest BC and the lowest ES and one hole groups, etc. No you don't. Not for 99% of people who just want to make an ethical shot and put meat in the freezer. You need good equipment that is consistent, reliable and easy to shoot accurately (designed well). And you need lots and lots of trigger time. That trumps all of the "precision metrics" in the first 600yds. Now that doesn't mean the precision metrics don't matter. The farther you shoot, the more they matter. But as you go farther and farther, different metrics matter more. By the time you get to ELR distances (1500+)... extreme spread and bullet to bullet ballistic coefficient consistency are the most important factors. THEN how high the BC is, THEN 100yd group size. For the 200yd benchrest crowd, group size is everything. Ballistic coefficient and extreme spread are nearly irrelevant. So, it just depends on what you're doing. There's no universal "this is the best". Fit the tool to the job. But in the long range game, experience trumps EVERYTHING, by a large margin. But for THIS JOB... big game out to 600. Yes, get the rifle under 1 MOA, the ES under 50, learn how to use your rangefinder, and burn a barrel out by practicing. Or buy a training rifle, like our 22 Nosler and burn THAT barrel out practicing out to a thousand, if you have access to that or whatever you have. So when your 500yd shot comes on your big game animal, it's a chip shot for you.
Loving this series. Grew up shooting the cheap Core Lokt and PowerPoint out of a .270 Win and have been looking at moving to a 7mm or 300 WM for a bit more punch for Elk. Between you and Randy Selby, I'm convinced it's time to try a Monolithic bullet or at the very least, something bonded. Couple of questions I had, 1. Why does the B.C. difference between the interlock and CX make such a large difference in hit % compared to the CX and ELD-X? Is it just diminishing returns after you get above a B.C. over .300 @ 600 yards? 2. I see why you picked the CX over the Interlock and ELD-X, but why the CX over the Barnes TSX/TTSX, Nosler E-Tip, etc.?
Great Question. There is a large jump between the Interlock and the CX because because the CX has 68 Points higher BC AND 134 fps more velocity. Those two things combined cause a drastic improvement. Where between the CX and the ELDX, the ELDX has 54 points more BC but is 134fps slower. That loss in velocity, nearly offsets all the gain from the added BC. BC AND Velocity are important. Not just one or the other. But in the first 600yds, velocity is more important than BC, if you're a novice. But the ideal mix, is a blend of higher BC and high velocity. Like the 160gr CX. Randy knows what the hell he's talking about. He can't communicate it as well as I can and he doesn't have the computer programs to prove it. But, that man KNOWS IN HIS BONES, what I have been communicating to you guys. He's lived it. He just can't communicate it the way I can, so he gets frustrated and loses his temper, and that's where he loses people. I actually almost met him probably 7 or 8 years ago. We were renting a cabin when we visited Yellowstone. I could see his roof from the deck. I tried to work out a time with Kathy to visit, but we just couldn't make it work. Randy's optimal meeting times were when we were in the park. The guy is brilliant, he's just old school and the "high speed, low drag" crowd doesn't understand him. But he knows all this stuff I'm telling you guys. The CX has the highest BC per grain of bullet weight. Which means it will have higher hit probability than all the other mono's for a given set of conditions. The X bullets and E-Tips kill stuff just fine. But they will be closer to the Interlock Hit Probability.
I don't know when I started reloading with my dad but sometime in the 70s. Thought I had an idea what I was doing. But I fell into the BC trap till I watched this! I've since run the #s for the 300 I'm putting together comparing the 212 grainers I was planning on to lighter stuff. Just ordered a bunch of 168s as with a 300 yrd zero the 212s don't catch up till 1500 yrds. This is for banging steel and for me to learn not for hunting. Thanks for the Great Info!
Glad to hear it Chuck. Yeah, the BC does matter and it does increase hit probability. But at the ranges that most people shoot, it's WAY less important than people think. And at all ranges it is WAY less important than having a good range and making a good wind call. Range, wind, then everything else.
Science base without the fluff and no BS...exactly what im looking for. I'm on the upward/beginner long range portion of the curve trying to soak up as much (good) info as possible. This series was meant for me for sure. I own one of the calibers you're comparing and look forward to seeing how it stacks up. Really interested in the GRT info as Im growing in my rifle load development knowledge. Thanks again for this gem of a series and I hope theyre all an hour plus in length!
You're welcome man, I'm enjoying it. The fact that you can admit where you are on the graph, tells me you're going to be ok in the long run. Stick with it and maintain that open mind and you'll get there.
Wow, this is great. I've been a competitive archer most of my life, and rifle hunted varmints for a long time. So this is great for me, because I have so much to learn. The length was fine. Ha, I was kind of sorry it ended. Thank you for doing this. No nonsense, no BS.
You're welcome Mark. It had to happen. I've seen too many "half truth" videos with no naughty words and 40 edits in 10 minutes. I prefer lettin'er fly, the whole truth, and 3 edits. One because of the stupid camera. HA!
Very interesting and practical knowledge. Thank you for taking the time to educate others like myself. Im glad to see someone advocate for terminal performance im their bullet over BC for hunting as well as defining sensible limits to what long range is for hunting. I set 600 yds as my personal limit, with the intent to shoot much closer if at all possible. Interesting how extreme accuracy was not overly beneficial, I would have lost on that one. Looking forward to the next video in the series.
The BC doesn't matter if the bullet won't do kill the animal reliably. Yeah, the extreme accuracy and many other variables get swallowed up by the fact that you can't read wind perfectly.
Wow. How refreshing to hear the things you are saying. I am heading out now to see if I can find the beam on my rangefinder. And learn more about the wind. Anxious to see the rifle builds and performance.
Great video. I'm new to hunting and rifles in general. Your information is really helpful to me as a sport shooter and future hunter. I started reloading last year for my 30-30 because the factory ammo costs so much. Gordon's reloading tool is amazing. It's helped me get a couple of great loads for my 30-30...For competition I have to shoot standing with iron sights at 100 meters. 40 shots in 10 minutes. The mirage after 30ish shots makes the target almost imperceptible. The accurate loads help me a lot. I'm really babbling here and I don't know why. I guess I just want to say that I appreciate this content and am looking forward to the next video.
Great info, thank you. My eyes were opened to the BS when I was running Max Point Blank for a 5" target. 308 Winchester, 280 Remington and 30'06. I was using 150-180 grain bullets. The MPB for all, were under 300yds which is fine for may hunting needs. However, the amazing part of this study was that all calibers and all bullet weights only had a 6 yard variable for MPB. I'm sure it would have opened up more if I used a 6" or 8" target. However, my longest shot on big game has only been a little over 200yds. I don't need the bigger target. And I don't need high BC.
Thanks for watching. Yes, there is very little difference in the first 300yds even. It's easy to get lost in the numbers. Which was why I did this video.
Fantastic explanation of the variables that make up ballistics. As an owner of all the calibers to be tested, I'm very eager to see the rest of the series.
Thanks Derek. NOBODY compares things like this and analyzes the ballistics this way. They use drop and drift charts based on ammo box velocities. It's nearly useless, for ANYTHING but... comparing drop and drift charts. Thanks for coming along.
This is some of the most in depth knowledge on RUclips. Finally actual info with a source to back it up! I'll be watching each and every one of these videos
So basically moral of the storry is most important thing is knowing what u are doing especially with the wind glad u brought up a 3/4 moa vs say a .3 moa rifle doesn't make much of a difference i have always said this not as experienced as u but been hunting for 35 yrs so i do know some things my limit is 400 yrds and that is as far as i go excited to see this series 😊
You got it. Get you're rifle at 3/4 moa or less, 50fps es or less and then get your shit together and go practice. There is no replacement for getting the reps in, just like anything else.
I first met you when you guys rechambered my old 270wsm … and now this just showed up in my RUclips feed… watched the first episode and now I’m hooked. You’ll be seeing me when I’m done watching it all I need to get setup with my reloading and I’m ready for a new rifle 😎 I have been looking for a 7mm and here you are. Kudos to you for sharing all this. And f the trolls and haters!
You're welcome Chris. Those two columns are what's missing from everyone else's videos on long range shooting. We all know that ES, small groups and BC is important. But take the time to quantify it, so people actually understand what's important and what's not for their application. Thanks for watching.
Beam spread picks up that strand of grass yards short is the thing I watch for. If you use a portable table and do sighting in on target in different places you strike it all the time. I did yesterday.
Yes finally someone who understands Case capacity determines almost everything, the efficiency thing only applies to the same capacity but a different bore ie. 30-06 vs 338-06 or 7mm08 v 308 , in this case the larger bore is always more efficient up until the point that you can reasonably reach max chamber pressure and 100% powder fill. Other things do apply such as the b.c. of the bullet you can shoot (within reason see video) and velocity capabilities with a certain grain bullet (because of powder capabilities) these small variables along with availability balanced on what you are trying to accomplish is how you choose a chambering for your rifle (or a rifle)
You get it. There is the efficiency thing you mentioned for bore diameter. That's absolutely true. Example, you might get 2700ft lbs out of a 25-06 at max pressure, but you can get over 3800 ft lbs out of a 35 Whelen at max pressure. Same powder volume. There is also another efficiency improvement as you go up in bullet weight for a given cartridge. Where a 7 whatever, might get 3100 ft lbs at max pressure with a 120gr, but 3500 ft lbs at max pressure with a 195gr. When you increase the dwell time, the efficiency improves. Adding barrel length, achieves the same effect. Efficiency goes up, for ALL load combinations as the barrel gets longer.
@LittleCrowGunworks yes but obviously the reason to go down in caliber is for that sweet sweet velocity so that you don't have to dial in for every shot with your rainbow gun 😉
LOL, there are so many things like that. Big saws are one of them. Cars are another one. Everybody wants 600hp until it's under their right foot. Then most don't want it anymore.
This series is phenomenal. I am in the process of determining what I want my tikka action to be barreled as. I have a 280 AI Mark V and I'm thinking of throwing another 280 barrel on my tikka so my wife and I can hunt together and share ammo (If I can find a load they both like) but I've also been thinking of something more modern or fancy. That said I can't bring myself to increase recoil and powder burnt for a 7prc. All my friends who have PRCs are not getting the advertised velocities, and it seems a waste for me...
Thank you for the compliment. It sounds you have your head screwed on straight. That is the point of this series, to give you all the truth and lay out ALL the facts, so you can make an informed decision and select the cartridge that's best for you. Which, in the current climate, is frowned upon and nearly impossible. You're supposed to just lap up the kool-aid and get your wallet out and don't question it... Because it's better, trust us... I don't think so skippy. I know better.
I'm glad you brought up the rangefinder beam location in relation to the crosshair. I subbed just for that. I used a small steel plate in one of my flat fields, and layed down prone with the rangefinder on a bag to located it. If I wasn't on the plate, the reading was off to infinity, so I was able to easily locate it. It was actually close to the center!
Well now you know. That's one variable you eliminated. That's all long range shooting is. Advanced problem solving, eliminating variables and reasons why you might miss. With my story about the prairie dog at 934yds: My first shot landed between it's feet and it jumped in the air and looked around. I had the wind nailed perfectly (12mph from 2 o'clock as I recall), the ONLY reason I missed is because getting a good range, on a rat, on flat ground, that far away, is EXTREMELY difficult. On the second shot, I didn't change any inputs, I just held the crosshairs at the top of his head and sent it down the road. Hit him center mass and that was it. Ranging errors happen. Even when you have intimate knowledge of your equipment.
Great content. I'm trying to decide on a 7mm cartridge for my next gun so this is right on target for me. I'm somewhere around 2/3 on the way across the dunning krugrt chart. One thing is clear to me, the more i learn the more I'm aware of just how much i don't know.
Thanks Glenn. I did not mention why I'm using the G7 BC. When a projectile has a long (very low drag) nose and a boattail, G7 is the correct Drag Model to use. G1 would be incorrect because it is a poor representation of that projectile shape. The G1 is a great representation of the Interlock, but I wanted to use the same Drag Model for all three so you could see the difference without doing any math. Because those old legacy bullets are well represented by the G1 standard, that practice has been grandfathered in now with bullet manufacturers because the G1 number is a number that most people know and are familiar with, but when a bullet has a boattail and longer nose profile, the G1 isn't the best number to use. Manufacturers still use it though because it makes it easier for the consumer to see that their bullet has a higher BC than X competitor. But it's actually a poor representation of efficient bullets.
Many thanks for your extremely informative video. One can sort out drop much more precisely than wind, especially out West shooting across canyons. Very refreshing to learn from solid data sources. My son uses Quick Load .but will ask him to check out Gordons. You confirmed my contention that 3/4 MOA is plenty good for hunting accuracy. Here in Louisiana 200 yards is a long shot. Keep up no BS videos. Might add I like 338 and 35 for elk since my limit is 400 yards and even that distance would be an exception.
Thank you for the positive feedback Jeff. That's the truth of it, trying to get your load below 3/4 MOA has very diminishing returns for hunting applications. I agree that larger bore diameter will kill elk faster, but most people don't shoot heavy recoiling rifles very often or very well. A precise shot with a 7mm is better than a poor shot with a 338. Thanks for watching.
With a 308 at those ranges, I would say no, it doesn't matter. You don't need to worry about violent expansion due to excess velocity. I would suggest 150gr+ bonded as the first choice and 165gr+ cup and core as the second choice. You don't need copper for deer at 150yds. Thanks for watching.
The other thing about rangefinders is even if you think you know where your beam is hitting, and you drop it a time or three, you need to check where your beam is hitting. These things aren't bullet proof. They're bore sighted at the factory, but you can screw them up. Does Kestrel have a unit check/calibration program in place, or does everyone just assume they stay calibrated forever? I don't have one, yet, but being in the business I'm just wondering. Great series.
Love this series so far, learning so much! Recently bought myself a 7mm Rem Mag in Tikka T3X Varmint (wanted to go for the 7 PRC but here in South Africa component and rifle availability is basically zero). With my very first load development I realised what you made mention of in the first video, the cartridge performance would be limited due to the limitation on the overall length from the tikka magazine. Anyway, started off with a local South African powder, Somchem S365, which has a similar burn rate as N550 (used it becasue this is what I am loading on the 243 and 6.5 creed). This was way down on the case capacity because it was already showing pressure signs at 66gr powder using the 162gr ELDX bullet. Speed was 3110fps. Now I've gotten hold of N560 and using 71.5gr powder and getting 3235fps. Still not using the full case capacity so will probably go to N570 once I've used all the N560 I bought🤦♂All that being said, the rifle is performing like a dream and will do the job on anything I can currently afford to hunt!😝
Thank you for the positive feedback! You're doing great. Stick with the N560. There is no way on God's Green Earth you will get enough N570 in that case to hit peak pressure. It's not all burning either, not even close. Stick with N560, that's the sweet spot.
LOL, that won't even do it. Even if you fill the case to the top of the case mouth, so it's spilling out and smash a bullet on it, you will only be at 50k psi, only 93% of it will burn in a 30" barrel and you will lose 160fps from what you're getting now in your shorter barrel. It's WAY too slow for a 7 Rem Mag case size. N570 is even a little slow for the 28 Nosler, which has 16 grains more water capacity. Stick with 560. It's the perfect powder for the 7 Rem Mag. There isn't a better option.
@LittleCrowGunworks i like my hodgdon powders but i guess the same problem would arise with 7828ssc, im on the rd so i don't have access to my software.
Nope. N560 and IMR 7828SSC are kissing cousins. That would be my other recommendation. But you will get identical velocity at peak pressure with N560 and 7828ssc. You won't gain anything. If anything, you will lose some temp stability by going with 7828 because it's 70yr old technology and doesn't have the same temp stability that N560 has. Not that any of that will matter inside 600yds, because it won't.
Thank you for the information. I would like to learn more about the length of the 7mm rem mag. I am looking at reloading and building a good load for my rifle.
Honestly, I think desktop will be ideal for most of this series. Provided that it doesn't work on your tv. TV would be even better otherwise some things will be hard to read. Thanks for the support.
Loving it! I run the 280 AI and the 28 NOS each have their own purpose for me. Looking forward to learning a lot more. Thank you for your time. New subscriber!
Right on man! You bookended our whole series with those two cartridges! You are correct, they are in different categories I would say. Thanks for coming along!
I've got my first custom hunting rifle coming this summer from borden actions in 7 prc. Anxious for this series. Just started handloading so hopefully i retain a bunch of this information in my small brain!!!!😅😂
@@LittleCrowGunworks I DO HAVE YOUR CASE TRIMMER AND A COUPLE OF OTHER PRODUCTS. TRY TO BUY FROM SMALL USA MA AND PA COMPANIES IF POSSIBLE. ANSWERED ALL MY QUESTIONS WHEN CALLING ABOUT PRODUCTS. HOW LONG BETWEEN EACH EPISODE DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE?
We appreciate that John. I'm going to try to keep a 2 week or less cadence going forward. Once the weather is nice, I can get out and test more consistently, the videos will likely be weekly.
After this i may have just ascended Mt. Stupid to realize just how much i don't know.😂! I hunt in eastern Saskatchewan and shots over 300 yards are rare. The older i get the more i want to hunt other regions as time and resources allow. The western part of Saskatchewan is wide open pronghorn and mule deer country. My goal is to get good enough within 500 yds to take a game animal with proficiency. Eventually im headed to Alaska for a 3 or 4 species hunt. I love the no nonsense approach and myth busting you employ. Thanks for the effort.
I appreciate that Darryl, at least you can admit where you are. Most won't. It sounds like you have some reasonable goals laid out ahead of you. I'm happy you appreciate the approach. I knew there was a group of people starving for this. Thanks for watching.
Yay for deep dives! Been checking youtube often for this to drop. Looking forward to the rest of the series. Edited to add after watching through: I'm especially eager to watch you use GRT. I've used it quite a bit in the past for load development in the .280 AI, but would love to see it from the perspective of someone who actually knows what they're doing. :)
Thank you for sharing this fantastic data! The hit probability info was very informative and something I had never seen or heard of before. I’ll be picking up my first 7mm rifle next week chambered in 7PRC. I’m planning on using the CX or Terminal Ascent bullet . I’m looking forward to practicing in the mountains and learning my true limits.
That's what we want to hear. That was one of our goals with this video series; share information that you're not getting anywhere else. You won't go wrong with either bullet. Thanks for watching.
Only thing the new fancy cartridges bring to the table is there chamber design is sammi spec from the jump to allow the bullets to be seated out of the case further. Allows for lil more powder capacity and closer to the lands bullet jump
Correct. All the older cartridges are saami spec as well. But the new ones have better freebore and lead angle geometry which helps them shoot well without much fuss.
For hunting medium and large game I think copper has some serious advantages. Long flat land I’ve found even the best range finder can struggle in heavy mirage Right now kinda leaning 7prc and running the 160cx or 175x Alpha brass has proven to be pretty good. Been running the same 300 for 2+ years in prs matches in 6GT. 4-10 SD the entire time with varget. Need to try some VIT I’m using your video to decide what 7mm to chamber for elk and wolves and any other large game game. I live in the Midwest and don’t really have a need for a large magnum, but I would like to build a 7 mm when the day comes to go on another western Hunting trip
All good stuff man! If you've been running a Tiger for 2 years I'm sure you have a good idea what you're doing. We agree on the advantages of copper. There are no perfect projectiles, but for us, copper has the least amount of compromises. Thanks for joining us.
As long as you can get the copper to shoot definitely agree. We can only use straight walls in my state for deer season and no 350 legend bullet and even the 450 bushmaster will exit 80% of the time unlikely to see an exit 25% of the time. Considering a 150g maker Trex for the 350 legend seeing how that works. The deer we shoot are on the run and full of adrenaline they can go a ways after shot. It’s Just how our state is set up for hunting them and it won’t change.
I get it man. That straightwall thing needs to go away. We have that same stupidity in the southern half of our state. Thankfully I hunt in the northern half. You have to do the best you can under those circumstances.
Really liked your video. Good data to back up your personal experience. Deer is my primary hunting focus, but the info will apply. I so have 7-08 and 280 AI rifles, so am interested in the ackley info you’ll present. Thanks for your work to put this together.
Thank you for the kind words. We're hoping the rest of the industry takes note and gets their act together when they compare things. Do it thoroughly or don't waste peoples time.
Aloha, Thank you for taking the time to make this series. Even for a greenhorn like myself, I am able to understand what you are trying to teach and appreciate the straight up no Bullshit approach. Looking forward to the next part.
Thank you for the support. I'm happy you appreciate the approach. It seems to be popular and it's the only way I communicate, so, you're stuck with it. Thanks for joining the adventure.
Absolutely Gold stuff. Finally. I’m a 280ai shooter but I’d love to hear your thoughts on the Hornady Podcast “Your group sizes are too small”. All my most accurate rifles, after doing the Hornady 30 round statistical probability group, aren’t as accurate as I had led myself to believe. Those who have heard the podcast know. Changed my entire shooting perspective. I just wanted to add this comment because I’ve done extensive testing of hunting bullets since that podcast and a true (I mean statistically meaningful for 30 rounds as per Hornady testing)…a TRUE 0.75moa rifle with hunting bullets is an absolute unicorn. 5 shot groups mean nothing to me anymore after that podcast. My mind was blown and I’d love to hear your thoughts. Thanks for your effort on this! 7mm for the win
Thank you for the positive feedback. I listened to the Hornady Podcast too. The truth is they're right. But... nobody shoots at an animal 30 times. If you take the time to understand how "Normal (Bell Curve) Distributions" work, because that's what they're talking about, the picture becomes more clear. Yes 30 shots will give you a very clear picture of the extreme outer limits of the rifles performance. But there isn't a great way to test that. I would say that taking 30 consecutive shots in one outing is a terrible way of testing it. Rifle heat, mirage off the barrel and shooter fatigue are way more of a contributing factor to that group size than the rifle is. So while I agree with them, it's almost a worthless test, for anyone but them. Because they have a big mechanized test platform and shoot indoors. Keep in mind, they sell bullets ok. And are promoting 30 shot tests for accuracy? Come on now. What I CAN tell you is that you can spot "trends" with as little as 1 shot of a given load. I'm going to show you my load development method in this series. It is statistically irrelevant, completely. But it works. I have a pile of rifles that I can take out and shoot 5 shot groups that are under 6 inches at 1,000 yds. I didn't need to shoot 30 shots with any of them to find those loads.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I should apologize for being long-winded but I get inspired by content like this. First off, I think it is great that you answer nearly every post and question if they are in earnest. A good laugh is welcome but we are seriously interested in all of this, which is, I think, a sign of being ethical. And I like the way you say it. Paraphrased, being ethical does mean ensuring hit probability. We want to hit the animal and bring it down as quickly and successfully as possible. I have watched those specific podcasts more than once (your groups are too small ep 50, groups are still too small ep 52, the one on mean radius, the recent one on load development where they also get rid of a lot of "noise" in load development. For example, getting too close to the lands does not bring the improvement you think it would) more than once. I would pick up more details with each watching. Jayden Quinlan, their lead ballistician, speaks precisely to this. Group the rifle for the job. If doing some kind of PRS, you may need to group at 30 shots, at least. All in all, going past 50 is a point of diminishing returns. And yes, they burned a barrel at 500 rounds and all that did was gain another 1 percent or so of reliability. So, going back to 50 rounds or less, determine with a high enough round count, what your cone of dispersion is. That will also help determine the effect range of that gun for certain jobs. And, after some time, they have learned to rely on 20 rounds. A box of ammo. Buy 2, zero with one box and finish the rest of that box with technique or velocity averaging. if you are grouping for hunting, then 1 more box is needed. After zeroed and the rifle is cool again, shoot 3 rounds and stop. And if you clean your rifle after each use, it must be cleaned this time, in order to repeat the conditions of operation. The rifle must be completely cool again, as if you had pulled it out of the cabinet and went off into the woods. Shoot another 3 shots. Repeat this 7 times and you have your basic 20 round dispersion. With a percentage as high as we are seeing here in you lesson, that is the likely cone of fire for that rifle. IOW, group the rifle for the job. But also, at least 20 rounds for an idea of what it will do. I watched a guy new to PRS video himself in a match and it was probably about 10 to 20 rounds at that stage. FWIW, another person has claimed to do 5 cold bore shots. Though I agree with him it is more likely cold shooter. He did one cold bore shot for 5 days. Put together, it was the same dispersion as if he did all 5 shots at one sitting. If all else is good, then this is the order I have learned for source of error: Highest error is the shooter. Next highest is variances in ammo. Last is the rifle and gear. If things are torqued right and you have some kind of bedding better than plastic, you have the chance to have a rifle be at least 1 MOA. You can hit an IPSC at 1,000 yards. If I was to even get to shoot 1k, it would only be at an IPSC and not a game animal. I saw first your video on importance of bullet construction, so I came in bass-ackwards. It really has got me to consider changing my 7 PRC from the PH 175 gr ELD-X to the the CX Outfitter for the reasons you mentioned. The mushroom is good but more importantly is the penetration, especially on big game. (In Texas, the toughest I am going to find is Mule Deer and barbary sheep like the Aoudad.) I liked your statement in another reply here that with something like the 7 PRC in the 160 gr copper, your windage, being an average day, could hold left or right edge of target zone, adjusting only elevation for distance. That reminds me of how Cleckner, author of Long Range Shooting Handbook, relayed his experience as a sniper team leader in the Ranger 1/75. His targets were IPSC size. He would hold left or right edge of target into the wind for a hit. I hunt on public land, so, I prefer to have a high point to see my kill box. Especially when using a bullet that can make an exit. That way, my backstop is the other side of the creek bed in the middle of two hills. Which means careful selection. If I cannot make an ethical shot that is also safe for me and others, then I cannot take the shot. As for the CX Outfitter, I saw another video of a guy with cheesy click-bait titles try out that round in his .270. He claimed that the copper bullet is producing 4 to 6 inch dispersion on some rifles, not in others. I have not heard of that and that doesn't make sense. Though I have seen others also shoot the Hornady 7 PRC PH 175 gr and getting an inch or two and pronouncing it 2 MOA ammo. Also, recent claims and even some chrono showing the ELD-X being 150 to 200 fps slower than the box. I have always thought of the box value as an estimate or best case scenario. Real world use will be slower. Mainly because the factory has to make an average, as they will not know which specific rifle this goes into. For example, mine is in a chassis and the magazine is the AICS for .300 WM. The bullet has a smidgeon of room in there. Of course, the rifle is a standard long action and not a magnum long action. And this was creating a scandal. But the guy with the .270 was also finding that the MV was, on average, 109 fps slower than the box. I bet it is like that with all ammo companies. And if seriously pursuing precision, such as one would in competition or tinkering hunter, you are going to handload and tune your system with seating depth, etcetera. I think a book length reply is enough for now. 😀
Thank you for the lengthy comment. I don't mind. Naturally I can't address everything you said in the comment. But the important thing is that you are thinking about this critically and you are getting the correct tool for the job. That is the right way to think about this. These are just tools, that's all. They each specialize in something different and none of them are perfect. For us, killing an elk out to 600yds with a 7mm, there isn't a better tool than the 160gr CX. Change the parameters, and it might change our choice for that new job. I do think people spend too much time on the wrong things. Load development is one of them. But there are way more things that people don't spend nearly enough time on. Practice being the biggest one. Working all the bugs out of their equipment would be second. Getting a good 10 shot zero and figuring out how much error is in your scope would be another thing. People get so hyper focused on the performance metrics that they lose sight of the things that have WAY MORE effect on whether or not they will actually hit the target. Thanks for coming along.
HA, I knew this one would blow peoples hair back. Certainly goes against all the drivel you hear everywhere else. I appreciate that people appreciate it! Thanks for joining us.
Love this series. I knew that I knew little, know I know I don’t know enough. If you offend folks, that’s a them problem not a you problem. If folks have no audio on there tv, turn off surround sound in the videos settings…NOT your tv, I had that issue only on my tv, not tablet or phone
Awesome video. Quick question, is there really something like a an overbore cartridge when it comes to powder load to energy at the muzzle? My intuition is that this statement is only true if you consider standard length barrels. More powder with a long enough acceleration path should result in comparable efficiency (minus some friction losses, granted). I am a handloader and picking the right powder for shorter barrels leads to a very linear loss per inch of barrel all other things being equal. Thx
I think your intuition is correct. However, the barrel length becomes ridiculously impractical. In the off the cuff example I used in the video between the 308 Winchester and the 300 Ultra Mag. I just punched that into the Gordon's program and the results were just crazy. So, I was able to simulate 3000 ftlbs with 44.10grs of X powder in a 26" barrel and a 180gr bullet. Which resulted in 35.6 Effective Efficiency Rate and 68.07 ftlbs per grain of powder. Which is outstanding efficiency compared to most things. In order to reach the same efficiency rate and ftlbs per grain with the 300 Ultra Mag, I needed 94 grs of X powder, which pushed a 225gr ELDM at 3578 fps and 6393 ftlbs!!! But the simulation required a 72 inch barrel to get there!!!! Now whether that would actually play out in reality, I don't know. I assume the friction wouldn't scale in a linear fashion due to jacket deterioration. Maybe with a solid bullet it would be ok. In theory, you're correct. But in practical reality, overbore = inefficiency. If your loss is linear in shorter barrels then you are using a burn rate that is too fast for the cartridge, the load density is low and you should have picked a smaller cartridge. That's a universal truth. If velocity loss per inch of barrel is linear, either the powder is too fast or the cartridge is too big for the barrel length or some combination of both.
@@LittleCrowGunworks thx a lot, I’ll marinate on the burn rate advice. Great to hear that you use GRT. That’s what I am using as well and so far the simulations have been quite accurate vs. Reality. Real shame that Gordon is no longer with us. Just got my Garmin Xero today, so I‘ll soon test GRT against one real oddball. Lehigh Xtreme Cavitator 85 grain in a .308 Win 😁
It's very useful with the number of bullet and powder combinations out there. The published data just can't keep up. I have mentioned this to others, but, not one of my finished handloads for ANY rifle is published anywhere. Gordon's is a great way to at least find a place to start and see what powders will burn 100% before the bullet exits the muzzle. I agree, I have found it to be incredibly accurate when the inputs are good. Actual measured case capacity and cartridge overall length are critical to getting accurate estimates. Yeah, it's too bad about Gordon. At least his bride is willing to keep it alive for awhile. Those oddball bullets are hard to get accurate estimates on. You basically have to find something similar, then change the bullet dimensions to match what you're using. Then play with the Initial Pressure and Bullet Resistance, until the predictions match actual. Then you should have something worth using for predictions going forward.
For the second column, should we not play with the 3/4 moa when adjusting the extreme spread? I was under the impression that consistency and repeatability yields accuracy so having a better extreme spread should also improve your moa and in turn lead to a larger increase in %. Am I way off there?
Great question. Precision does not equal low extreme spread. You can have a rifle shoot 1/2 MOA at 100yds with an Extreme Spread over 100fps. Now, that WILL show up at long range. But you don't see it at short range.
@@LittleCrowGunworks That helps me understand thank you! Plugged some numbers in after reading your reply and the disparity in velocity is not measurable at 100 yards and the vertical spread due to different velocities at 600 is within an inch up and down. I liked what you said about velocity being the easiest way to improve hit percentage, makes perfect sense and it’s why I’ve been dropping weight and shooting monos out of almost everything. Another thing I wonder is how much your optics hight over bore affects that parabola when talking about hit percentage. When I do the math it’s seems like a low mounted scope and a fast bullet are the two best things a newer shooter can have.
You should also run numbers on the fact that the ballistic coefficient on the box of bullets is the AVERAGE, not absolute. Most Hornady bullets have a .010 to .020 G7 variance. Meaning if the box says .300 G7, there is everywhere from .290 to .310 in the box. Don't read too much into the sight height. Those little details get lost in the wash. Like how a one hole rifle should make a huge difference in hit probability, but it doesn't because all of the other variables, swallow up that precision. Find a balance between high BC and low weight for your application and run it as hot as your cartridge will reasonably allow.
I glad SOMEONE has really had the audacity to tell it like it is... real world... i would love to see a comparison with the Barnes bullets , TTSX and LRX as thats what i load a lot of.. thanks again...
Thank you for putting this series together. One question; as you go through the different cartridges, I'd be interested to know if some cartridges are more forgiving of shorter barrel lengths compared to others. I love my 7 PRC and my 270 Win, so naturally, I'm curious about 7mm Rem Mag and 280 AI. Very open to expanding my rifle collection to add more 7mms.
I'm glad you appreciate it. The truth is there aren't any magnums that are forgiving to use short barrels. I will show why in the load development video. "Underbore/efficient" cartridges like a 308 Winchester are the most forgiving for short barrels. Unfortunately there are no free rides. But I'll lay out what I mean soon. Thanks for watching.
Would like to see you do a video on the Weatherby chamberings, and how it allows you to run higher pressures and that kind of thing that you mentioned. That sounded interesting.
No video needed. It's basically a way of widening the top of the pressure curve and reducing the peak, because the bullet is jumping so far before it hits that hard stop and swages into the rifling. Overall it's not a good thing. Long jumps usually aren't great for accuracy.
I can't say for sure. But I can say that in my own experience, as I seat any bullet further in any cartridge, Weatherby or not (increase jump) my velocity goes down. Until I get to the point where I'm compressing the powder, then the velocity starts going back up rapidly.
@LittleCrowGunworks if im correct the compressed load has a faster burn rate causing the higher velocity but because of the jump it has that soft peak, however the highest pressure happens when the bullet engages the rifling. If i am correct than compressed loads should not be set out against the lands.
I think you have a great grasp of what's happening there. Compressed loads can be set against the lands if the initial burn rate is slow enough. I think where everyone likes to load things is around 20 to 50 thou jump. Which is usually conducive to smaller groups, but it is "worst case scenario" for pressure issues.
I was hoping for a wildcat. Something using the 350 legend case, like to compete with 22 nosler. 22-350 or 7mm350. Great content and thanks for the information
Glad to hear it. For me, 3 of the 4 cartridges are new to me as far as loading for them. So I'm learning too during this adventure. But I'm applying principles I learned over time. My process works, I'm excited to share it.
That opening is funny! I will fully admit, I do troll on channels I believe are worthy of it. -Like Reloading Weatherby or even some times Jim from Backfire. But guys who know their chit, are good to go. So lay it down brother. I’m looking forward to it.
Thank you for the enlightening content...real eye opening especially for a guy who has never shot past 400 yards. You explained things extremely well so that even this ole Fudd could understand...lol.
This video was awesome! Lots of stuff I already live by BUT so much of the detail explained was great. I’m by no means an experienced long range shooter but I’m a very experienced hunter that has started looking to extend my reach to 500. 600 would be max I would ever take also but I’m not there yet. Also the blank look at certain points is perfect haha.
Some of the shooting 'Tubes I track talk about how they go about selecting a potential load - As most of them are F-class directed channels, the general idea is either "I just copy the current leaders in the field" or "I want no more than X amount of drift at Y distance [looking at Winning in the Wind, with this one]" - And both seem solid, depending on how deep a dive you want to get on load development. Obvious, terminal performance is a significant, if not the most significant, factor but I'm curious - Do you also set a maximum acceptable drift or drop number, when doing preliminary load work-up? If you do, are you going to discuss that as well, with each load? I knew going into the introductory video for this series that I wanted Peterson brass (lord it's hard to find, but they're the only top-tier brass makers for it...) for my 280 Ackley, and I prioritize CCI magnum primers for all my loads (also getting had to find for me). As an FFL I'd assume you just order direct, but could you also highlight who you source your reloading supplies from, or who you would source them from if you had to go outside your normal lines? I ask, because my two primary Go-Tos (Midway and Grafs, both less than an hour from my house), as well as my third (Midsouth), are out of .. Well, all of it and I'm crawling into odd corners of the Web looking into what may or may not be shady dealers for materials.
While I appreciate the F-Class guys and follow all of them as well; what they do, might as well occur on a different planet. There are some parallels when creating good hunting ammunition. But they are more different than they are the same. While all of the ammo performance metrics are important, the priorities for hunting ammo is way different than competition ammo. All I can say is, keep watching my process and it will all come together at the end. You're already looking in the right places for components. Use ammoseek for primers. Outdoor Limited, Republic Ammunition and Lohman Arms are all legit and often have CCI 250's. See ya on the next one.
Annotating here, for comparison to your work in the next set of videos. My rifle: Browning X-bolt Pro LR in 280AI. Using Hornady Comparator and General Ultratech mic, 'in the lands' determined by a dummy cartridge using Peterson brass and 160gr CX finish-seated via bolt-and-barrel method. Base to Ogive ('in the lands') length: 2.8425" Seated 30thou off the lands, for a Base-to-tip measurement of ~3.5570 (just within ~ 3.6025 mag length).
This is a great freaking video! But with that was said, I’m still glad Hornady puts a boat tail on their 30/30 140 grain mono flex tips 😂😂😂 😂😂 Keep’ ur vids com’n
I know I've already posted replies on this video, but I'm definitely looking forward to the series, and you're correct considering the eldx on bigger game. One of my best friends shot a moose twice in the shoulder scapula with the 200gr with his 30-06, and spined it on the third shot. When butchering, both bullets were flattened against the scapula, which isn't that thick of a bone, so complete nonfatal shots. I've got around 7 out of 8 exits with the 110 accubond in 257wby on elk with broadside shots, and have had great penitration on shoulder bone shots with the same combo, so my experience with the accubond differs from yours, but I get your point. You've probably seen more elk killed than me, but this isn't really the point of the series. Although I've killed a handful of antelope it 600yds+ on cold windless days, when it comes to long range shooting i know nothing more than small amounts, so im really looking forward to the no bs long range and cartridge knowledge. Thanks
Hey I don't mind multiple comments. Yeah, I speak in generalities on some of these things. Some bullets I mentioned will exit depending on the circumstances. The point is that monolithics will exit under the widest variety of circumstances, shot angles, shot placement, etc. Because they expand the least and retain the most weight. So they slow down the least and have the least drag when passing through an animal.
@LittleCrowGunworks Thanks for being fine with the messages, and it's good to understand that you're talking about the highest probability, and I would never dispute that monolithics exit more with a higher probability.
I'm happy you understand that. With any of this stuff, I'm speaking in generalities. You can't say anything with certainty when there are so many variables at play. It's a game of probabilities. Hit probability, exit probability, blood trail probability, etc.
Nothing you say should piss anybody off. If somebody gets pissed off, they’re just not mature. Not many people show others or share experiences like you do. Free schooling. They can just go somewhere else and don’t leave anything negative. Otherwise they will be doing what you do. Keep on coming with more videos.
Is there a formula for determining overbore? I would consider the 25-06 overbore, I’m not sure about the 270. And I would think that the 30-06 is underbore. But I don’t think I’ve ever had someone that could truly explain that ratio to me?
Oh baby. Thanks for the video idea. Ha. I would say you are correct, the 25-06 is pretty overbore. The 270 is nearly perfect proportion between bore and capacity. The 280AI is perfect and the 30-06 is slightly underbore.
Well I don't agree with some stuff but you know more than me and most people. the idea is not to be a douche here. I listen, I lean and I admit you have change the things that I did not agreed on. People that disagree most of the time are less knowledgeable than you. Regardless everyone is entitle to an opinion. I thank you for all I have learned here.
Adults? Some of are. Information is what we make of it. I've been looking forward to this series and appreciate the time and effort it takes to present it. Thank you.
As someone who was firmly atop Mt. Stupid only a few years ago, I’d strongly recommend buying a training rifle in a cheap caliber that will be blown around in the wind. 308 or 223. Talk about being humbled! Also the amount of scenarios where you’ll be faced with 4 to 500 yard plus shots where you can build a solid position and can successfully recover your game are way less common than most think. I’ve hunted Colorado a lot and most shots have been within 300 yards
I agree that a basic 223 and factory ammo or a 308 with the same, is very humbling and a great learning tool. However, it can cause new guys to get really discouraged and give up the sport. Because it's so unforgiving. I think you make a great point about western hunting. It's not that long shots "can't" occur, it's that building a solid position in the mountains, isn't as easy as people think it is, if they haven't done it. Thanks for watching.
I think it’s important to not overcorrect on BC in the other direction. I know you are trying to make a point on the BC craze, and I agree with you on the outer end. But the 7mm is the best case caliber and in reality folks are shooting bullets that are way worse on aerodynamics than the Interlock 175 you ref here. Just take the deadly 150 grain green mushroom as example for the old fashioned SPs out there - G1 BC of .346 vs. the Interlock with .462. And things get way more pronounced on other calibers and cartridges. Great oddball example is the 35 Whelen where a 225 standard AccuBond with a pedestrian .43 makes everything else look like a barn door 😂
I used the 175 Interlock because it is the same weight as the 175 ELDX. Using 150gr and under, dumpy bullets isn't relevant for the discussion. Nobody with any sense is shooting a 150gr Core Lokt at 600yds for any reason, unless it's on a bet and beer is involved. There are a million examples I could have used. The 3 I chose adequately made the point. As indicated by the comments.
@@LittleCrowGunworks as said, I agree with your position and yes the InterIock made sense. What I was trying to say is that there is still a sizable population of hunters with their Partitions and other classics that would do well thinking about BC, even at 300 yards. For example I ran the numbers for a friend with a 20“ 300 WM on a 190 grain ABLR vs. the 180 grain .35 G1 BC factory load he currently uses. At 200 yards the ABLR is over 600 ft-lb ahead
I am really enjoying this series. I’ve never been a big BC guy, but your analytical data on the smaller % of difference the ES made was eye opening. I’ll definitely look at things differently now. Looking forward to the rest of the series. Thanks for doing this.
I'm glad it was worth your time. Yeah the ES and the Group size/precision is very eye opening. The wind and distance error swallows up your painstaking load development. Happy to help. Thanks for watching!
Thank you, I really enjoyed watching this video and while not quite drinking from the firehose, I feel like I learned more in the time spent watching this video than I have in all the hours spent watching so many others. I'm not a long range shooter, but I very interested in learning about it. I finally feel like I found a good source to get a foundation.
![ARGENTINA vs. PERÚ [1-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 12](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xtI25ENDDSY/mqdefault.jpg)
Thank you for this content. I am a small-town teacher with an interest in shooting and hunting. I live in PA and a far shot for me is 300 yards. I dont have near the time to devote to learning what I need to become the best shot. I like to think I am a decent shot and that I am constantly learning and improving every time I do get to the range. You breaking down bc, es, and dispersion here and how they effect hunting ranges was the best I have ever seen. I dont have access to all the technology you do, to do this kind of resource. Based on what I can gather through RUclips, Facebook groups, the free hornady app, I had come up with the same answer to what bullet I wanted to shoot out of my 7mm prc. I bought the gun to have a gun that can knock down bigger game. To me you always want 2 holes in an animal. Interlock is a great bullet but does handicap you due to the lower bc. Being a novice to reading wind, the gain I get by having a bit higher bc means everything right now. I'm not an eldx fan due to the close nature of my typical shots in pa but did like that they had higher bc. After your explanation I'm solidly convinced to just stuck with the cx bullet and work up a load my rifle likes with a decent es and dispersion and then practice more and worry less how to shrink those numbers.
Thank you for that Matt. We wanted to set a new standard for how these comparisons are done. As a teacher, you know that most raw information without context is at best, incomplete and at worst, meaningless or counterproductive.
In reality, you have to make compromises no matter what bullet you choose. The CX has the least compromises for a hunting bullet. People don't realize that you have to choose bullets for your specific application. There is no best choice for ALL applications. In the woods, you shouldn't be using a 175 ELDX. It's the wrong choice.
I agree, 2 holes is always best and yes and ELDX will explode at close range and high velocity, I've done it.
The 7 PRC and a CX is point and shoot out to 300yds. Favor 6 inches into the wind if you're shooting 300yds in high wind (15mph+). But otherwise, don't even worry about it. Aim for the vitals and let'er rip.
Get out and practice when you can. If that elk hunt comes someday, you'll be ready.
Thanks again for the support.
Absolutely! The only down fall to lead free bullets I really see is when I shoot steel, it doesn't leave a black mark that I can easily see. That is actually the only reason I don't use them.
@@mikedrescher3891 White paint.
Absolute gold standard conversation on bullets, BC and velocity! Well done!
Thanks! Tell you're friends, ha!
You're late to the party, but I'm glad you came.
Finally...A hunter minded technically oriented , down to. Facts on meat!!! Not just holes on paper. Bravo!!!
Ah Thank You, Thank You (Takes a bow)
Yes, absolutely agree!
The context of these videos and where you want to take them.
Hunters are to receive a great eye opening education.
Your first graph you showed, put the heat to the meat.
I hope people watch these videos wanting to gain some knowledge.
Blessings your way my friends.
I love it when super knowledgeable people share their hard earned knowledge for anyone to see. I know it's no substitute for experience, but getting accurate and granular data can shorten the curve if people comprehend the meaning of the data and apply it appropriately. I wish I had a longer range. Living in the Appalachian mountains makes it tricky to find places to reach out there. I'll be watching for the next video in the series.
I love that you're using saami spec chambers, it makes it more accessible to the average Joe.
I just picked up my (deceased) uncles old Winchester model 94 in 30-30 from my brother for $200. It was just rusting in his storage closet. I've been wanting a wood stocked lever gun, but don't want to spend $1000. I had no idea he had it until today. I can't wait to bring it back to life.
Cheers
Ben
Thank you for that Ben. That was my point. My goal is to push you along that curve whether you're ready or not. I think that's what everyone wants when they watch YT videos. But they're not getting it most of the time. They get the same regurgitated paper numbers that are unfounded and have no meaning without context.
Yeah we decided that we can still make our points with saami chambers. Then the average Joe knows what's possible.
Good luck with the 94 project. See ya on the next one.
This is like the jordan peterson of shooting sports. Not dumbing this down or cutting it short. Thank you
Well David, you win the unofficial "Comment Contest".
First with the Mt. Stupid comment, which had me cackling like a madman and now this.
I never thought I would reach a point in my life where a stranger would draw a parallel between me and Jordan Peterson on any metric. For me personally, there isn't a better compliment you could give me.
I'm honored, thank you.
Well, i have spent a lot of time energy and money focusing on the wrong aspects of shooting. Frustrated to the point of wanting to give up by my inability to develope the perfect load for my 280ai. Chasing high BC's low SD's and (what i was told) must have 1/2 inch groups. This information makes a lot of sense. I am changing my focus at the reloading bench, and at the range. After all hunting is my focus not punching paper. Thanks-
Thanks you for the insight David. I did the same thing. The method I developed usually results in what you have been chasing (high velocity, 1/2" or better and ES under 15 for 3 shots) and I intend to share it with all of you. But it took me thousands of shots fired in load development to figure out what works.
The hard truth is that, although the perfect load DOES HELP hit probability, if you can't read wind to within a couple miles per hour and get a good range...all that precision gets lost in the wash. When you see all the useless talking points/drop chart comparison videos, they don't tell you that.
Yes the High BC drifts less, but that doesn't mean you get to suck at wind reading and still hit stuff. You still have to put in the work.
But Jordan Peterson is a idiot. He is a genius to less than smart people.
Well I made it through the video only to realize that I am at the thought I knew but I actually know so little stage😆 I have managed to avoid the new cartridge hype when I added a few rifles to my collection. Instead of going the PRC route I chose a Sako Precision in 7mm REM Mag and a Sako Hunter in .308. I then added a Tikka T3X in 7mm-08 for my deer rifle. Where I hunt in northern Ontario my typical shot for deer is 50-100 yards and for moose 100-300 yards. I enjoyed the video and I’m looking forward to seeing the rest of the series. Knowledge is power. I like your direct no bullshit approach don’t change!
Well at least you can admit it. Most won't even make it THAT far. It sounds like what you're running works for your applications. I'm glad you're enjoying it.
I have no intention of changing my approach. It's in short supply.
I met Tim a little over a year ago at Dale’s when I bought my first custom rifle. I’m fortunate to live in the same town Little Crow Gunworks has it shop. I went from an average 100 yard shooter to now a year later being able to hit a 16” X 24” steel plate at 900 yards! Trust me when I say, this guy knows his stuff and I’m Proof that if you apply what he tells you to your shooting format it will change the way you shoot forever. Thanks Tim
Joe, I don't want this to be a public love fest, but you are the ideal student. Despite being around 20 years my senior, you don't question everything I say. You be quiet, focus and LISTEN. Then, you make sure you grasped what I said, you go process and apply it without questioning it and hey, it works.
If you weren't an eager and willing student, I would have stopped helping you a long time ago. So, you deserve just as much credit as I do.
"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."
I have encountered many different people that immediately start disputing what I say, and I say to myself: "They're not ready." and I just shut up and let them go flounder about.
Thank you for the kind words and for appreciating and applying my process.
Honesty, sarcasm and good data…wow this is and will be a great educational series!
Nice work!
Thanks Jared! Excellent feedback!
Great info there, no BS, concise and we as ethical hunters needed to understand, man l’m still at the bottom of that hill after 50yrs of hunting/shooting , still learning every day cheers from NZ.
@@thomasbutler6506 Thanks for the support. Welcome to the channel, cheers.
Can you share thoughts on 7mm 175 Accubond or the 175 Accubond long range bullets? I do understand that you consider the monolithic your bullet of choice. You really didn't address bonded bullets. Great video, thanks for sharing.
Great question. I will cover it in the terminal video.
WOW as a 77 year old hunter with over 50 years of reloading experience I have a learned a lot in this video. rifle builder randy Selby has similar view points on the big push of high BC bullets. down right lie in the marking scam. I have used partition bullets on grizzly and moose with great success, but that was the best we had forty years ago. looking forward to more of your great content.
Thanks Otto! The fact that you're 77 and still searching for new information is very inspiring to me. We have a client that comes in often, he's retired. At some point he says "Man, I learn something new every time I come in here."
Partitions STILL kill stuff just fine. They don't exit on those big critters, but it kills just fine. Thanks for joining the adventure!
Thank you very much for your statistical analysis. In any endeavor it’s important to know when you’ve reached “good enough”. The point of diminishing returns for BC surprised me - I had guessed it was a much higher BC. In addition, it’s clear that BC just doesn’t matter at 300 yards and it. The shocker though was the incremental benefit from the 0.050” rifle. Clearly a 3/4 MOA rifle is good enough.
Exactly. Most of the other channels you watch, they don't tell you that. Why? Because they don't know this stuff. They don't analyze things this way. It's WAY easier to just say "more is better". Know what I mean?
You need the highest BC and the lowest ES and one hole groups, etc. No you don't. Not for 99% of people who just want to make an ethical shot and put meat in the freezer.
You need good equipment that is consistent, reliable and easy to shoot accurately (designed well). And you need lots and lots of trigger time. That trumps all of the "precision metrics" in the first 600yds. Now that doesn't mean the precision metrics don't matter. The farther you shoot, the more they matter. But as you go farther and farther, different metrics matter more.
By the time you get to ELR distances (1500+)... extreme spread and bullet to bullet ballistic coefficient consistency are the most important factors. THEN how high the BC is, THEN 100yd group size.
For the 200yd benchrest crowd, group size is everything. Ballistic coefficient and extreme spread are nearly irrelevant.
So, it just depends on what you're doing. There's no universal "this is the best". Fit the tool to the job. But in the long range game, experience trumps EVERYTHING, by a large margin.
But for THIS JOB... big game out to 600. Yes, get the rifle under 1 MOA, the ES under 50, learn how to use your rangefinder, and burn a barrel out by practicing. Or buy a training rifle, like our 22 Nosler and burn THAT barrel out practicing out to a thousand, if you have access to that or whatever you have. So when your 500yd shot comes on your big game animal, it's a chip shot for you.
Loving this series. Grew up shooting the cheap Core Lokt and PowerPoint out of a .270 Win and have been looking at moving to a 7mm or 300 WM for a bit more punch for Elk. Between you and Randy Selby, I'm convinced it's time to try a Monolithic bullet or at the very least, something bonded. Couple of questions I had, 1. Why does the B.C. difference between the interlock and CX make such a large difference in hit % compared to the CX and ELD-X? Is it just diminishing returns after you get above a B.C. over .300 @ 600 yards? 2. I see why you picked the CX over the Interlock and ELD-X, but why the CX over the Barnes TSX/TTSX, Nosler E-Tip, etc.?
Great Question. There is a large jump between the Interlock and the CX because because the CX has 68 Points higher BC AND 134 fps more velocity. Those two things combined cause a drastic improvement.
Where between the CX and the ELDX, the ELDX has 54 points more BC but is 134fps slower. That loss in velocity, nearly offsets all the gain from the added BC.
BC AND Velocity are important. Not just one or the other. But in the first 600yds, velocity is more important than BC, if you're a novice. But the ideal mix, is a blend of higher BC and high velocity. Like the 160gr CX.
Randy knows what the hell he's talking about. He can't communicate it as well as I can and he doesn't have the computer programs to prove it. But, that man KNOWS IN HIS BONES, what I have been communicating to you guys. He's lived it. He just can't communicate it the way I can, so he gets frustrated and loses his temper, and that's where he loses people.
I actually almost met him probably 7 or 8 years ago. We were renting a cabin when we visited Yellowstone. I could see his roof from the deck. I tried to work out a time with Kathy to visit, but we just couldn't make it work. Randy's optimal meeting times were when we were in the park. The guy is brilliant, he's just old school and the "high speed, low drag" crowd doesn't understand him. But he knows all this stuff I'm telling you guys.
The CX has the highest BC per grain of bullet weight. Which means it will have higher hit probability than all the other mono's for a given set of conditions. The X bullets and E-Tips kill stuff just fine. But they will be closer to the Interlock Hit Probability.
At 21:12, getting that one more grain of slower burning powder? Is a longer barrel even more relevant then?
Yes. The slower burning the powder, the more relevant the barrel length is.
I don't know when I started reloading with my dad but sometime in the 70s. Thought I had an idea what I was doing. But I fell into the BC trap till I watched this! I've since run the #s for the 300 I'm putting together comparing the 212 grainers I was planning on to lighter stuff. Just ordered a bunch of 168s as with a 300 yrd zero the 212s don't catch up till 1500 yrds. This is for banging steel and for me to learn not for hunting.
Thanks for the Great Info!
Glad to hear it Chuck. Yeah, the BC does matter and it does increase hit probability. But at the ranges that most people shoot, it's WAY less important than people think. And at all ranges it is WAY less important than having a good range and making a good wind call. Range, wind, then everything else.
Science base without the fluff and no BS...exactly what im looking for. I'm on the upward/beginner long range portion of the curve trying to soak up as much (good) info as possible. This series was meant for me for sure. I own one of the calibers you're comparing and look forward to seeing how it stacks up. Really interested in the GRT info as Im growing in my rifle load development knowledge. Thanks again for this gem of a series and I hope theyre all an hour plus in length!
You're welcome man, I'm enjoying it. The fact that you can admit where you are on the graph, tells me you're going to be ok in the long run. Stick with it and maintain that open mind and you'll get there.
Wow, this is great. I've been a competitive archer most of my life, and rifle hunted varmints for a long time. So this is great for me, because I have so much to learn. The length was fine. Ha, I was kind of sorry it ended.
Thank you for doing this. No nonsense, no BS.
You're welcome Mark. It had to happen. I've seen too many "half truth" videos with no naughty words and 40 edits in 10 minutes.
I prefer lettin'er fly, the whole truth, and 3 edits. One because of the stupid camera. HA!
Very interesting and practical knowledge. Thank you for taking the time to educate others like myself. Im glad to see someone advocate for terminal performance im their bullet over BC for hunting as well as defining sensible limits to what long range is for hunting. I set 600 yds as my personal limit, with the intent to shoot much closer if at all possible. Interesting how extreme accuracy was not overly beneficial, I would have lost on that one. Looking forward to the next video in the series.
The BC doesn't matter if the bullet won't do kill the animal reliably. Yeah, the extreme accuracy and many other variables get swallowed up by the fact that you can't read wind perfectly.
Wow. How refreshing to hear the things you are saying. I am heading out now to see if I can find the beam on my rangefinder. And learn more about the wind. Anxious to see the rifle builds and performance.
Jeez, you don't waste any time! Thanks for the support!
Great video. I'm new to hunting and rifles in general. Your information is really helpful to me as a sport shooter and future hunter. I started reloading last year for my 30-30 because the factory ammo costs so much. Gordon's reloading tool is amazing. It's helped me get a couple of great loads for my 30-30...For competition I have to shoot standing with iron sights at 100 meters. 40 shots in 10 minutes. The mirage after 30ish shots makes the target almost imperceptible. The accurate loads help me a lot. I'm really babbling here and I don't know why. I guess I just want to say that I appreciate this content and am looking forward to the next video.
Thank you! Keep that open mind, you'll get more out of it.
Great info, thank you. My eyes were opened to the BS when I was running Max Point Blank for a 5" target. 308 Winchester, 280 Remington and 30'06. I was using 150-180 grain bullets. The MPB for all, were under 300yds which is fine for may hunting needs. However, the amazing part of this study was that all calibers and all bullet weights only had a 6 yard variable for MPB. I'm sure it would have opened up more if I used a 6" or 8" target. However, my longest shot on big game has only been a little over 200yds. I don't need the bigger target. And I don't need high BC.
Thanks for watching. Yes, there is very little difference in the first 300yds even. It's easy to get lost in the numbers. Which was why I did this video.
Very nice start…I really liked the comment on burning up barrels, absolutely no substitute for time on the range..
That might be the most true statement in long range shooting.
Thanks for the feedback!
That’s some great info for me. I was all about BC,now I’ve got a much better understanding. Thanks a lot.
That just means that their marketing is working. It's very effective at convincing people that BC is everything.
Thanks for watching.
Fantastic explanation of the variables that make up ballistics. As an owner of all the calibers to be tested, I'm very eager to see the rest of the series.
Thanks Derek. NOBODY compares things like this and analyzes the ballistics this way. They use drop and drift charts based on ammo box velocities. It's nearly useless, for ANYTHING but... comparing drop and drift charts. Thanks for coming along.
Brilliant sir, you are educating me. Thank you!
Happy to hear it, glad you're coming along.
This is some of the most in depth knowledge on RUclips. Finally actual info with a source to back it up! I'll be watching each and every one of these videos
Wow! Thanks man. We appreciate the loyalty. See ya on the next one!
So basically moral of the storry is most important thing is knowing what u are doing especially with the wind glad u brought up a 3/4 moa vs say a .3 moa rifle doesn't make much of a difference i have always said this not as experienced as u but been hunting for 35 yrs so i do know some things my limit is 400 yrds and that is as far as i go excited to see this series 😊
You got it. Get you're rifle at 3/4 moa or less, 50fps es or less and then get your shit together and go practice. There is no replacement for getting the reps in, just like anything else.
I first met you when you guys rechambered my old 270wsm … and now this just showed up in my RUclips feed…
watched the first episode and now I’m hooked. You’ll be seeing me when I’m done watching it all I need to get setup with my reloading and I’m ready for a new rifle 😎
I have been looking for a 7mm and here you are. Kudos to you for sharing all this. And f the trolls and haters!
Thank you for that, we appreciate the continued support. We decided it was time to contribute to the good info on the internet.
Thanks for your hard work. The two columns of hit percentages was a really great way to illustrate what things we should be focusing on!
You're welcome Chris. Those two columns are what's missing from everyone else's videos on long range shooting. We all know that ES, small groups and BC is important. But take the time to quantify it, so people actually understand what's important and what's not for their application.
Thanks for watching.
It’s going to be interesting to learn your thoughts on free bore. From 308 case size to 300 mag size cases.
Beam spread picks up that strand of grass yards short is the thing I watch for. If you use a portable table and do sighting in on target in different places you strike it all the time. I did yesterday.
You get it. Those stupid little errors cause misses all the time.
More to this than I thought…. That’s where I’m at …
Knowing were you REALLY are, is step one to getting better.
Thank you! You could easily teach a college level course in this.
Wow! Thank you! If only a college would have me... ha.
Yes finally someone who understands
Case capacity determines almost everything, the efficiency thing only applies to the same capacity but a different bore ie. 30-06 vs 338-06 or 7mm08 v 308 , in this case the larger bore is always more efficient up until the point that you can reasonably reach max chamber pressure and 100% powder fill. Other things do apply such as the b.c. of the bullet you can shoot (within reason see video) and velocity capabilities with a certain grain bullet (because of powder capabilities) these small variables along with availability balanced on what you are trying to accomplish is how you choose a chambering for your rifle (or a rifle)
You get it. There is the efficiency thing you mentioned for bore diameter. That's absolutely true. Example, you might get 2700ft lbs out of a 25-06 at max pressure, but you can get over 3800 ft lbs out of a 35 Whelen at max pressure. Same powder volume.
There is also another efficiency improvement as you go up in bullet weight for a given cartridge. Where a 7 whatever, might get 3100 ft lbs at max pressure with a 120gr, but 3500 ft lbs at max pressure with a 195gr.
When you increase the dwell time, the efficiency improves. Adding barrel length, achieves the same effect. Efficiency goes up, for ALL load combinations as the barrel gets longer.
@LittleCrowGunworks yes but obviously the reason to go down in caliber is for that sweet sweet velocity so that you don't have to dial in for every shot with your rainbow gun 😉
Exactly.
This Mount stupid graph, is like me getting my first hopped-up 660 Stihl chainsaw.
LOL, there are so many things like that. Big saws are one of them. Cars are another one. Everybody wants 600hp until it's under their right foot. Then most don't want it anymore.
This series is phenomenal. I am in the process of determining what I want my tikka action to be barreled as. I have a 280 AI Mark V and I'm thinking of throwing another 280 barrel on my tikka so my wife and I can hunt together and share ammo (If I can find a load they both like) but I've also been thinking of something more modern or fancy. That said I can't bring myself to increase recoil and powder burnt for a 7prc. All my friends who have PRCs are not getting the advertised velocities, and it seems a waste for me...
Thank you for the compliment. It sounds you have your head screwed on straight. That is the point of this series, to give you all the truth and lay out ALL the facts, so you can make an informed decision and select the cartridge that's best for you. Which, in the current climate, is frowned upon and nearly impossible. You're supposed to just lap up the kool-aid and get your wallet out and don't question it... Because it's better, trust us...
I don't think so skippy. I know better.
I appreciate the information you are providing.
My pleasure!
Just wait...the hole gets deeper.
I'm glad you brought up the rangefinder beam location in relation to the crosshair. I subbed just for that. I used a small steel plate in one of my flat fields, and layed down prone with the rangefinder on a bag to located it. If I wasn't on the plate, the reading was off to infinity, so I was able to easily locate it. It was actually close to the center!
Well now you know. That's one variable you eliminated. That's all long range shooting is. Advanced problem solving, eliminating variables and reasons why you might miss.
With my story about the prairie dog at 934yds: My first shot landed between it's feet and it jumped in the air and looked around. I had the wind nailed perfectly (12mph from 2 o'clock as I recall), the ONLY reason I missed is because getting a good range, on a rat, on flat ground, that far away, is EXTREMELY difficult. On the second shot, I didn't change any inputs, I just held the crosshairs at the top of his head and sent it down the road. Hit him center mass and that was it.
Ranging errors happen. Even when you have intimate knowledge of your equipment.
Great content. I'm trying to decide on a 7mm cartridge for my next gun so this is right on target for me.
I'm somewhere around 2/3 on the way across the dunning krugrt chart. One thing is clear to me, the more i learn the more I'm aware of just how much i don't know.
Thanks Gabe. Yeah, its a deep hole!
Really appreciate your experience and information. I missed the reason you are using the G7 bc...? Thanks.
Thanks Glenn. I did not mention why I'm using the G7 BC. When a projectile has a long (very low drag) nose and a boattail, G7 is the correct Drag Model to use. G1 would be incorrect because it is a poor representation of that projectile shape. The G1 is a great representation of the Interlock, but I wanted to use the same Drag Model for all three so you could see the difference without doing any math.
Because those old legacy bullets are well represented by the G1 standard, that practice has been grandfathered in now with bullet manufacturers because the G1 number is a number that most people know and are familiar with, but when a bullet has a boattail and longer nose profile, the G1 isn't the best number to use. Manufacturers still use it though because it makes it easier for the consumer to see that their bullet has a higher BC than X competitor. But it's actually a poor representation of efficient bullets.
Many thanks for your extremely informative video. One can sort out drop much more precisely than wind, especially out West shooting across canyons. Very refreshing to learn from solid data sources. My son uses Quick Load .but will ask him to check out Gordons. You confirmed my contention that 3/4 MOA is plenty good for hunting accuracy. Here in Louisiana 200 yards is a long shot. Keep up no BS videos. Might add I like 338 and 35 for elk since my limit is 400 yards and even that distance would be an exception.
Thank you for the positive feedback Jeff. That's the truth of it, trying to get your load below 3/4 MOA has very diminishing returns for hunting applications. I agree that larger bore diameter will kill elk faster, but most people don't shoot heavy recoiling rifles very often or very well.
A precise shot with a 7mm is better than a poor shot with a 338. Thanks for watching.
Great info there!!! This series is gonna be an amazing dive into 7mm Cartridges!!!
Thanks man.
We're gonna try anyways! Ha
Thanks for this info. I'm a deer hunter in the SE. Most shots 50 to 150 yards (308). Does it matter if I use a cup & core, bonded, or copper bullet?
With a 308 at those ranges, I would say no, it doesn't matter. You don't need to worry about violent expansion due to excess velocity. I would suggest 150gr+ bonded as the first choice and 165gr+ cup and core as the second choice. You don't need copper for deer at 150yds.
Thanks for watching.
Great video! I'm new to long range and I really appreciate your straight forward approach to explaining things
Thanks Jack! That's good, that's all you're gonna get from me. I'm a terrible actor. Thanks for watching.
Just outstanding channel! Every video is a great pleasure!👑 Kings!
Wow, thank you
Great foundation. Looking forward to series. Thanks
Thank you John!
Thank you!!! I have learned so much I watch the whole video. Thank you!!!
Glad it was helpful!
Great video. Really enjoy the data presentation and the effects of changing the inputs. Enlightening.
Thank you, I figured it would blow everyone's hair back.
Loving this! Thanks heaps for doing this series.
Thanks mate, glad you're enjoying the ride.
Great information. I have re-learned several lessons that I always thought was true but only had my own anecdotal experience to draw from.
Thank you! Glad we could help out.
The other thing about rangefinders is even if you think you know where your beam is hitting, and you drop it a time or three, you need to check where your beam is hitting. These things aren't bullet proof. They're bore sighted at the factory, but you can screw them up. Does Kestrel have a unit check/calibration program in place, or does everyone just assume they stay calibrated forever? I don't have one, yet, but being in the business I'm just wondering. Great series.
Love this series so far, learning so much!
Recently bought myself a 7mm Rem Mag in Tikka T3X Varmint (wanted to go for the 7 PRC but here in South Africa component and rifle availability is basically zero). With my very first load development I realised what you made mention of in the first video, the cartridge performance would be limited due to the limitation on the overall length from the tikka magazine. Anyway, started off with a local South African powder, Somchem S365, which has a similar burn rate as N550 (used it becasue this is what I am loading on the 243 and 6.5 creed). This was way down on the case capacity because it was already showing pressure signs at 66gr powder using the 162gr ELDX bullet. Speed was 3110fps. Now I've gotten hold of N560 and using 71.5gr powder and getting 3235fps. Still not using the full case capacity so will probably go to N570 once I've used all the N560 I bought🤦♂All that being said, the rifle is performing like a dream and will do the job on anything I can currently afford to hunt!😝
Thank you for the positive feedback!
You're doing great. Stick with the N560. There is no way on God's Green Earth you will get enough N570 in that case to hit peak pressure. It's not all burning either, not even close. Stick with N560, that's the sweet spot.
@@LittleCrowGunworksor get a 30in barrel 😂
LOL, that won't even do it. Even if you fill the case to the top of the case mouth, so it's spilling out and smash a bullet on it, you will only be at 50k psi, only 93% of it will burn in a 30" barrel and you will lose 160fps from what you're getting now in your shorter barrel. It's WAY too slow for a 7 Rem Mag case size. N570 is even a little slow for the 28 Nosler, which has 16 grains more water capacity.
Stick with 560. It's the perfect powder for the 7 Rem Mag. There isn't a better option.
@LittleCrowGunworks i like my hodgdon powders but i guess the same problem would arise with 7828ssc, im on the rd so i don't have access to my software.
Nope. N560 and IMR 7828SSC are kissing cousins. That would be my other recommendation. But you will get identical velocity at peak pressure with N560 and 7828ssc. You won't gain anything. If anything, you will lose some temp stability by going with 7828 because it's 70yr old technology and doesn't have the same temp stability that N560 has. Not that any of that will matter inside 600yds, because it won't.
Thank you for the information. I would like to learn more about the length of the 7mm rem mag. I am looking at reloading and building a good load for my rifle.
I'll show you how to determine length. With the right tools, it's pretty easy. Thanks for watching.
Patiently waiting to learn about powder selection. Watched both videos on 7mm and am itching to add that to my knowledge base. Great videos.
Patience Grasshoppa. Coming soon!
I only had sound for half a second on my fire stick. Glad I got to watch it on my phone. Good job.
Honestly, I think desktop will be ideal for most of this series. Provided that it doesn't work on your tv. TV would be even better otherwise some things will be hard to read.
Thanks for the support.
Loving it! I run the 280 AI and the 28 NOS each have their own purpose for me.
Looking forward to learning a lot more. Thank you for your time. New subscriber!
Right on man! You bookended our whole series with those two cartridges! You are correct, they are in different categories I would say. Thanks for coming along!
I've got my first custom hunting rifle coming this summer from borden actions in 7 prc. Anxious for this series. Just started handloading so hopefully i retain a bunch of this information in my small brain!!!!😅😂
Ah you'll be fine. Well you bought a Borden so you can't blame the gun! LOL.
When in doubt, re-watch!
@@LittleCrowGunworks I DO HAVE YOUR CASE TRIMMER AND A COUPLE OF OTHER PRODUCTS. TRY TO BUY FROM SMALL USA MA AND PA COMPANIES IF POSSIBLE. ANSWERED ALL MY QUESTIONS WHEN CALLING ABOUT PRODUCTS. HOW LONG BETWEEN EACH EPISODE DO YOU THINK IT WILL BE?
We appreciate that John. I'm going to try to keep a 2 week or less cadence going forward. Once the weather is nice, I can get out and test more consistently, the videos will likely be weekly.
I like where you're going...
We do too... Thanks for coming along.
After this i may have just ascended Mt. Stupid to realize just how much i don't know.😂! I hunt in eastern Saskatchewan and shots over 300 yards are rare. The older i get the more i want to hunt other regions as time and resources allow. The western part of Saskatchewan is wide open pronghorn and mule deer country. My goal is to get good enough within 500 yds to take a game animal with proficiency. Eventually im headed to Alaska for a 3 or 4 species hunt. I love the no nonsense approach and myth busting you employ. Thanks for the effort.
I appreciate that Darryl, at least you can admit where you are. Most won't.
It sounds like you have some reasonable goals laid out ahead of you. I'm happy you appreciate the approach. I knew there was a group of people starving for this.
Thanks for watching.
Yay for deep dives! Been checking youtube often for this to drop. Looking forward to the rest of the series. Edited to add after watching through: I'm especially eager to watch you use GRT. I've used it quite a bit in the past for load development in the .280 AI, but would love to see it from the perspective of someone who actually knows what they're doing. :)
Thanks for the support. I thought this video might be too long for people's liking... apparently not.
GRT video coming soon.
Thank you for sharing this fantastic data! The hit probability info was very informative and something I had never seen or heard of before. I’ll be picking up my first 7mm rifle next week chambered in 7PRC. I’m planning on using the CX or Terminal Ascent bullet . I’m looking forward to practicing in the mountains and learning my true limits.
That's what we want to hear. That was one of our goals with this video series; share information that you're not getting anywhere else. You won't go wrong with either bullet.
Thanks for watching.
Only thing the new fancy cartridges bring to the table is there chamber design is sammi spec from the jump to allow the bullets to be seated out of the case further. Allows for lil more powder capacity and closer to the lands bullet jump
Correct. All the older cartridges are saami spec as well. But the new ones have better freebore and lead angle geometry which helps them shoot well without much fuss.
@@LittleCrowGunworkspretty cool.
For hunting medium and large game I think copper has some serious advantages.
Long flat land I’ve found even the best range finder can struggle in heavy mirage
Right now kinda leaning 7prc and running the 160cx or 175x
Alpha brass has proven to be pretty good. Been running the same 300 for 2+ years in prs matches in 6GT. 4-10 SD the entire time with varget. Need to try some VIT
I’m using your video to decide what 7mm to chamber for elk and wolves and any other large game game.
I live in the Midwest and don’t really have a need for a large magnum, but I would like to build a 7 mm when the day comes to go on another western Hunting trip
All good stuff man! If you've been running a Tiger for 2 years I'm sure you have a good idea what you're doing.
We agree on the advantages of copper. There are no perfect projectiles, but for us, copper has the least amount of compromises. Thanks for joining us.
As long as you can get the copper to shoot definitely agree.
We can only use straight walls in my state for deer season and no 350 legend bullet and even the 450 bushmaster will exit 80% of the time unlikely to see an exit 25% of the time.
Considering a 150g maker Trex for the 350 legend seeing how that works.
The deer we shoot are on the run and full of adrenaline they can go a ways after shot. It’s Just how our state is set up for hunting them and it won’t change.
I get it man. That straightwall thing needs to go away. We have that same stupidity in the southern half of our state. Thankfully I hunt in the northern half.
You have to do the best you can under those circumstances.
Really liked your video. Good data to back up your personal experience. Deer is my primary hunting focus, but the info will apply. I so have 7-08 and 280 AI rifles, so am interested in the ackley info you’ll present. Thanks for your work to put this together.
Thank you for the kind words. We're hoping the rest of the industry takes note and gets their act together when they compare things. Do it thoroughly or don't waste peoples time.
Great info. I learned somethings. Thank you!
I hope so. I'd be shocked if you didn't.
Aloha, Thank you for taking the time to make this series. Even for a greenhorn like myself, I am able to understand what you are trying to teach and appreciate the straight up no Bullshit approach. Looking forward to the next part.
Thank you for the support. I'm happy you appreciate the approach. It seems to be popular and it's the only way I communicate, so, you're stuck with it.
Thanks for joining the adventure.
Absolutely Gold stuff. Finally. I’m a 280ai shooter but I’d love to hear your thoughts on the Hornady Podcast “Your group sizes are too small”. All my most accurate rifles, after doing the Hornady 30 round statistical probability group, aren’t as accurate as I had led myself to believe.
Those who have heard the podcast know. Changed my entire shooting perspective. I just wanted to add this comment because I’ve done extensive testing of hunting bullets since that podcast and a true (I mean statistically meaningful for 30 rounds as per Hornady testing)…a TRUE 0.75moa rifle with hunting bullets is an absolute unicorn.
5 shot groups mean nothing to me anymore after that podcast. My mind was blown and I’d love to hear your thoughts. Thanks for your effort on this! 7mm for the win
Thank you for the positive feedback. I listened to the Hornady Podcast too. The truth is they're right. But... nobody shoots at an animal 30 times. If you take the time to understand how "Normal (Bell Curve) Distributions" work, because that's what they're talking about, the picture becomes more clear. Yes 30 shots will give you a very clear picture of the extreme outer limits of the rifles performance. But there isn't a great way to test that. I would say that taking 30 consecutive shots in one outing is a terrible way of testing it. Rifle heat, mirage off the barrel and shooter fatigue are way more of a contributing factor to that group size than the rifle is.
So while I agree with them, it's almost a worthless test, for anyone but them. Because they have a big mechanized test platform and shoot indoors. Keep in mind, they sell bullets ok. And are promoting 30 shot tests for accuracy? Come on now.
What I CAN tell you is that you can spot "trends" with as little as 1 shot of a given load. I'm going to show you my load development method in this series. It is statistically irrelevant, completely. But it works. I have a pile of rifles that I can take out and shoot 5 shot groups that are under 6 inches at 1,000 yds. I didn't need to shoot 30 shots with any of them to find those loads.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I should apologize for being long-winded but I get inspired by content like this.
First off, I think it is great that you answer nearly every post and question if they are in earnest. A good laugh is welcome but we are seriously interested in all of this, which is, I think, a sign of being ethical. And I like the way you say it. Paraphrased, being ethical does mean ensuring hit probability. We want to hit the animal and bring it down as quickly and successfully as possible.
I have watched those specific podcasts more than once (your groups are too small ep 50, groups are still too small ep 52, the one on mean radius, the recent one on load development where they also get rid of a lot of "noise" in load development. For example, getting too close to the lands does not bring the improvement you think it would) more than once. I would pick up more details with each watching.
Jayden Quinlan, their lead ballistician, speaks precisely to this. Group the rifle for the job.
If doing some kind of PRS, you may need to group at 30 shots, at least. All in all, going past 50 is a point of diminishing returns. And yes, they burned a barrel at 500 rounds and all that did was gain another 1 percent or so of reliability. So, going back to 50 rounds or less, determine with a high enough round count, what your cone of dispersion is. That will also help determine the effect range of that gun for certain jobs. And, after some time, they have learned to rely on 20 rounds. A box of ammo. Buy 2, zero with one box and finish the rest of that box with technique or velocity averaging.
if you are grouping for hunting, then 1 more box is needed. After zeroed and the rifle is cool again, shoot 3 rounds and stop. And if you clean your rifle after each use, it must be cleaned this time, in order to repeat the conditions of operation. The rifle must be completely cool again, as if you had pulled it out of the cabinet and went off into the woods. Shoot another 3 shots. Repeat this 7 times and you have your basic 20 round dispersion. With a percentage as high as we are seeing here in you lesson, that is the likely cone of fire for that rifle. IOW, group the rifle for the job. But also, at least 20 rounds for an idea of what it will do. I watched a guy new to PRS video himself in a match and it was probably about 10 to 20 rounds at that stage.
FWIW, another person has claimed to do 5 cold bore shots. Though I agree with him it is more likely cold shooter. He did one cold bore shot for 5 days. Put together, it was the same dispersion as if he did all 5 shots at one sitting.
If all else is good, then this is the order I have learned for source of error: Highest error is the shooter. Next highest is variances in ammo. Last is the rifle and gear. If things are torqued right and you have some kind of bedding better than plastic, you have the chance to have a rifle be at least 1 MOA. You can hit an IPSC at 1,000 yards. If I was to even get to shoot 1k, it would only be at an IPSC and not a game animal.
I saw first your video on importance of bullet construction, so I came in bass-ackwards. It really has got me to consider changing my 7 PRC from the PH 175 gr ELD-X to the the CX Outfitter for the reasons you mentioned. The mushroom is good but more importantly is the penetration, especially on big game. (In Texas, the toughest I am going to find is Mule Deer and barbary sheep like the Aoudad.)
I liked your statement in another reply here that with something like the 7 PRC in the 160 gr copper, your windage, being an average day, could hold left or right edge of target zone, adjusting only elevation for distance. That reminds me of how Cleckner, author of Long Range Shooting Handbook, relayed his experience as a sniper team leader in the Ranger 1/75. His targets were IPSC size. He would hold left or right edge of target into the wind for a hit.
I hunt on public land, so, I prefer to have a high point to see my kill box. Especially when using a bullet that can make an exit. That way, my backstop is the other side of the creek bed in the middle of two hills. Which means careful selection. If I cannot make an ethical shot that is also safe for me and others, then I cannot take the shot.
As for the CX Outfitter, I saw another video of a guy with cheesy click-bait titles try out that round in his .270. He claimed that the copper bullet is producing 4 to 6 inch dispersion on some rifles, not in others. I have not heard of that and that doesn't make sense. Though I have seen others also shoot the Hornady 7 PRC PH 175 gr and getting an inch or two and pronouncing it 2 MOA ammo. Also, recent claims and even some chrono showing the ELD-X being 150 to 200 fps slower than the box.
I have always thought of the box value as an estimate or best case scenario. Real world use will be slower. Mainly because the factory has to make an average, as they will not know which specific rifle this goes into. For example, mine is in a chassis and the magazine is the AICS for .300 WM. The bullet has a smidgeon of room in there. Of course, the rifle is a standard long action and not a magnum long action. And this was creating a scandal. But the guy with the .270 was also finding that the MV was, on average, 109 fps slower than the box. I bet it is like that with all ammo companies. And if seriously pursuing precision, such as one would in competition or tinkering hunter, you are going to handload and tune your system with seating depth, etcetera.
I think a book length reply is enough for now. 😀
Thank you for the lengthy comment. I don't mind. Naturally I can't address everything you said in the comment. But the important thing is that you are thinking about this critically and you are getting the correct tool for the job. That is the right way to think about this. These are just tools, that's all. They each specialize in something different and none of them are perfect. For us, killing an elk out to 600yds with a 7mm, there isn't a better tool than the 160gr CX. Change the parameters, and it might change our choice for that new job.
I do think people spend too much time on the wrong things. Load development is one of them. But there are way more things that people don't spend nearly enough time on. Practice being the biggest one. Working all the bugs out of their equipment would be second. Getting a good 10 shot zero and figuring out how much error is in your scope would be another thing.
People get so hyper focused on the performance metrics that they lose sight of the things that have WAY MORE effect on whether or not they will actually hit the target.
Thanks for coming along.
Epic content, my mind is still adjusting. Easiest sub I've ever done. I really appreciate the work you've put in.
HA, I knew this one would blow peoples hair back. Certainly goes against all the drivel you hear everywhere else.
I appreciate that people appreciate it! Thanks for joining us.
Love this series. I knew that I knew little, know I know I don’t know enough. If you offend folks, that’s a them problem not a you problem. If folks have no audio on there tv, turn off surround sound in the videos settings…NOT your tv, I had that issue only on my tv, not tablet or phone
Thanks for the positive feedback! Admitting where you are in the process is the first step.
Awesome video. Quick question, is there really something like a an overbore cartridge when it comes to powder load to energy at the muzzle? My intuition is that this statement is only true if you consider standard length barrels. More powder with a long enough acceleration path should result in comparable efficiency (minus some friction losses, granted).
I am a handloader and picking the right powder for shorter barrels leads to a very linear loss per inch of barrel all other things being equal. Thx
I think your intuition is correct. However, the barrel length becomes ridiculously impractical. In the off the cuff example I used in the video between the 308 Winchester and the 300 Ultra Mag. I just punched that into the Gordon's program and the results were just crazy.
So, I was able to simulate 3000 ftlbs with 44.10grs of X powder in a 26" barrel and a 180gr bullet. Which resulted in 35.6 Effective Efficiency Rate and 68.07 ftlbs per grain of powder. Which is outstanding efficiency compared to most things.
In order to reach the same efficiency rate and ftlbs per grain with the 300 Ultra Mag, I needed 94 grs of X powder, which pushed a 225gr ELDM at 3578 fps and 6393 ftlbs!!!
But the simulation required a 72 inch barrel to get there!!!!
Now whether that would actually play out in reality, I don't know. I assume the friction wouldn't scale in a linear fashion due to jacket deterioration. Maybe with a solid bullet it would be ok.
In theory, you're correct. But in practical reality, overbore = inefficiency.
If your loss is linear in shorter barrels then you are using a burn rate that is too fast for the cartridge, the load density is low and you should have picked a smaller cartridge. That's a universal truth. If velocity loss per inch of barrel is linear, either the powder is too fast or the cartridge is too big for the barrel length or some combination of both.
@@LittleCrowGunworks thx a lot, I’ll marinate on the burn rate advice. Great to hear that you use GRT. That’s what I am using as well and so far the simulations have been quite accurate vs. Reality. Real shame that Gordon is no longer with us.
Just got my Garmin Xero today, so I‘ll soon test GRT against one real oddball. Lehigh Xtreme Cavitator 85 grain in a .308 Win 😁
It's very useful with the number of bullet and powder combinations out there. The published data just can't keep up. I have mentioned this to others, but, not one of my finished handloads for ANY rifle is published anywhere.
Gordon's is a great way to at least find a place to start and see what powders will burn 100% before the bullet exits the muzzle. I agree, I have found it to be incredibly accurate when the inputs are good. Actual measured case capacity and cartridge overall length are critical to getting accurate estimates. Yeah, it's too bad about Gordon. At least his bride is willing to keep it alive for awhile.
Those oddball bullets are hard to get accurate estimates on. You basically have to find something similar, then change the bullet dimensions to match what you're using. Then play with the Initial Pressure and Bullet Resistance, until the predictions match actual. Then you should have something worth using for predictions going forward.
For the second column, should we not play with the 3/4 moa when adjusting the extreme spread? I was under the impression that consistency and repeatability yields accuracy so having a better extreme spread should also improve your moa and in turn lead to a larger increase in %. Am I way off there?
Great question. Precision does not equal low extreme spread. You can have a rifle shoot 1/2 MOA at 100yds with an Extreme Spread over 100fps. Now, that WILL show up at long range. But you don't see it at short range.
@@LittleCrowGunworks That helps me understand thank you! Plugged some numbers in after reading your reply and the disparity in velocity is not measurable at 100 yards and the vertical spread due to different velocities at 600 is within an inch up and down. I liked what you said about velocity being the easiest way to improve hit percentage, makes perfect sense and it’s why I’ve been dropping weight and shooting monos out of almost everything. Another thing I wonder is how much your optics hight over bore affects that parabola when talking about hit percentage. When I do the math it’s seems like a low mounted scope and a fast bullet are the two best things a newer shooter can have.
You should also run numbers on the fact that the ballistic coefficient on the box of bullets is the AVERAGE, not absolute. Most Hornady bullets have a .010 to .020 G7 variance.
Meaning if the box says .300 G7, there is everywhere from .290 to .310 in the box.
Don't read too much into the sight height. Those little details get lost in the wash. Like how a one hole rifle should make a huge difference in hit probability, but it doesn't because all of the other variables, swallow up that precision.
Find a balance between high BC and low weight for your application and run it as hot as your cartridge will reasonably allow.
It sounds like Nosler brass falls outside of your criteria of what you would call good brass? Thank you, enjoying the videos.
You are correct.
Very informative. And lots of data to back it up. Thanks!
Thank you for the positive feedback!
I glad SOMEONE has really had the audacity to tell it like it is... real world... i would love to see a comparison with the Barnes bullets , TTSX and LRX as thats what i load a lot of.. thanks again...
The problem is, this isn't common knowledge, as made very evident by the comments. NOBODY is putting out content like this.
Thank you for putting this series together. One question; as you go through the different cartridges, I'd be interested to know if some cartridges are more forgiving of shorter barrel lengths compared to others.
I love my 7 PRC and my 270 Win, so naturally, I'm curious about 7mm Rem Mag and 280 AI. Very open to expanding my rifle collection to add more 7mms.
I'm glad you appreciate it. The truth is there aren't any magnums that are forgiving to use short barrels. I will show why in the load development video. "Underbore/efficient" cartridges like a 308 Winchester are the most forgiving for short barrels. Unfortunately there are no free rides.
But I'll lay out what I mean soon. Thanks for watching.
Would like to see you do a video on the Weatherby chamberings, and how it allows you to run higher pressures and that kind of thing that you mentioned. That sounded interesting.
No video needed. It's basically a way of widening the top of the pressure curve and reducing the peak, because the bullet is jumping so far before it hits that hard stop and swages into the rifling.
Overall it's not a good thing. Long jumps usually aren't great for accuracy.
@@LittleCrowGunworksbecause of pressure blow by before the bullet seals the bore?
I can't say for sure. But I can say that in my own experience, as I seat any bullet further in any cartridge, Weatherby or not (increase jump) my velocity goes down. Until I get to the point where I'm compressing the powder, then the velocity starts going back up rapidly.
@LittleCrowGunworks if im correct the compressed load has a faster burn rate causing the higher velocity but because of the jump it has that soft peak, however the highest pressure happens when the bullet engages the rifling. If i am correct than compressed loads should not be set out against the lands.
I think you have a great grasp of what's happening there. Compressed loads can be set against the lands if the initial burn rate is slow enough. I think where everyone likes to load things is around 20 to 50 thou jump. Which is usually conducive to smaller groups, but it is "worst case scenario" for pressure issues.
I was hoping for a wildcat. Something using the 350 legend case, like to compete with 22 nosler. 22-350 or 7mm350. Great content and thanks for the information
Thanks for watching. No obscure wildcats on this series, but thanks for coming along.
I subscribed after the intro video…… sold me on “the journey” and learning together (data) My off the shelf PRC is standing by.
Glad to hear it. For me, 3 of the 4 cartridges are new to me as far as loading for them. So I'm learning too during this adventure. But I'm applying principles I learned over time. My process works, I'm excited to share it.
That opening is funny!
I will fully admit, I do troll on channels I believe are worthy of it. -Like Reloading Weatherby or even some times Jim from Backfire.
But guys who know their chit, are good to go. So lay it down brother. I’m looking forward to it.
You guys keep picking it up and I'll keep laying it down!
Looking forward to watching this
Happy to hear it! Thanks for watching!
Im loving your vids looking into your case trimmer now
Thank you for the enlightening content...real eye opening especially for a guy who has never shot past 400 yards. You explained things extremely well so that even this ole Fudd could understand...lol.
I'm glad what I'm saying is landing. I'm never sure how it really went until I start to hear back from folks.
This video was awesome! Lots of stuff I already live by BUT so much of the detail explained was great. I’m by no means an experienced long range shooter but I’m a very experienced hunter that has started looking to extend my reach to 500. 600 would be max I would ever take also but I’m not there yet.
Also the blank look at certain points is perfect haha.
Blank looks for effect! LOL
Thanks for the video!
Thanks for watching
Some of the shooting 'Tubes I track talk about how they go about selecting a potential load - As most of them are F-class directed channels, the general idea is either "I just copy the current leaders in the field" or "I want no more than X amount of drift at Y distance [looking at Winning in the Wind, with this one]" - And both seem solid, depending on how deep a dive you want to get on load development.
Obvious, terminal performance is a significant, if not the most significant, factor but I'm curious - Do you also set a maximum acceptable drift or drop number, when doing preliminary load work-up? If you do, are you going to discuss that as well, with each load?
I knew going into the introductory video for this series that I wanted Peterson brass (lord it's hard to find, but they're the only top-tier brass makers for it...) for my 280 Ackley, and I prioritize CCI magnum primers for all my loads (also getting had to find for me). As an FFL I'd assume you just order direct, but could you also highlight who you source your reloading supplies from, or who you would source them from if you had to go outside your normal lines? I ask, because my two primary Go-Tos (Midway and Grafs, both less than an hour from my house), as well as my third (Midsouth), are out of .. Well, all of it and I'm crawling into odd corners of the Web looking into what may or may not be shady dealers for materials.
While I appreciate the F-Class guys and follow all of them as well; what they do, might as well occur on a different planet. There are some parallels when creating good hunting ammunition. But they are more different than they are the same.
While all of the ammo performance metrics are important, the priorities for hunting ammo is way different than competition ammo.
All I can say is, keep watching my process and it will all come together at the end. You're already looking in the right places for components. Use ammoseek for primers. Outdoor Limited, Republic Ammunition and Lohman Arms are all legit and often have CCI 250's.
See ya on the next one.
Annotating here, for comparison to your work in the next set of videos.
My rifle: Browning X-bolt Pro LR in 280AI.
Using Hornady Comparator and General Ultratech mic, 'in the lands' determined by a dummy cartridge using Peterson brass and 160gr CX finish-seated via bolt-and-barrel method.
Base to Ogive ('in the lands') length: 2.8425"
Seated 30thou off the lands, for a Base-to-tip measurement of ~3.5570 (just within ~ 3.6025 mag length).
Wow, you have a good amount of freebore in that rifle. Hopefully the magazine allows that...
You have plenty of room for powder!
This is a great freaking video!
But with that was said, I’m still glad Hornady puts a boat tail on their 30/30 140 grain mono flex tips 😂😂😂 😂😂
Keep’ ur vids com’n
Thanks man!
I know I've already posted replies on this video, but I'm definitely looking forward to the series, and you're correct considering the eldx on bigger game.
One of my best friends shot a moose twice in the shoulder scapula with the 200gr with his 30-06, and spined it on the third shot.
When butchering, both bullets were flattened against the scapula, which isn't that thick of a bone, so complete nonfatal shots.
I've got around 7 out of 8 exits with the 110 accubond in 257wby on elk with broadside shots, and have had great penitration on shoulder bone shots with the same combo, so my experience with the accubond differs from yours, but I get your point.
You've probably seen more elk killed than me, but this isn't really the point of the series.
Although I've killed a handful of antelope it 600yds+ on cold windless days, when it comes to long range shooting i know nothing more than small amounts, so im really looking forward to the no bs long range and cartridge knowledge.
Thanks
Hey I don't mind multiple comments.
Yeah, I speak in generalities on some of these things. Some bullets I mentioned will exit depending on the circumstances. The point is that monolithics will exit under the widest variety of circumstances, shot angles, shot placement, etc. Because they expand the least and retain the most weight. So they slow down the least and have the least drag when passing through an animal.
@LittleCrowGunworks Thanks for being fine with the messages, and it's good to understand that you're talking about the highest probability, and I would never dispute that monolithics exit more with a higher probability.
I'm happy you understand that. With any of this stuff, I'm speaking in generalities. You can't say anything with certainty when there are so many variables at play. It's a game of probabilities. Hit probability, exit probability, blood trail probability, etc.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I agree
Nothing you say should piss anybody off. If somebody gets pissed off, they’re just not mature. Not many people show others or share experiences like you do. Free schooling. They can just go somewhere else and don’t leave anything negative. Otherwise they will be doing what you do. Keep on coming with more videos.
Great Feedback! I agree.
Is there a formula for determining overbore?
I would consider the 25-06 overbore, I’m not sure about the 270. And I would think that the 30-06 is underbore.
But I don’t think I’ve ever had someone that could truly explain that ratio to me?
Oh baby. Thanks for the video idea. Ha.
I would say you are correct, the 25-06 is pretty overbore. The 270 is nearly perfect proportion between bore and capacity. The 280AI is perfect and the 30-06 is slightly underbore.
Looking forward to the journey, anything to make me a better person and hunter
Perfect attitude.
I’m ready to learn and listen…
Then you are a welcome guest.
Well I don't agree with some stuff but you know more than me and most people. the idea is not to be a douche here. I listen, I lean and I admit you have change the things that I did not agreed on. People that disagree most of the time are less knowledgeable than you. Regardless everyone is entitle to an opinion. I thank you for all I have learned here.
Thank you for watching. Almost all of my contempt is directed towards other channels/publications that are making a living by lying to you guys.
Adults? Some of are. Information is
what we make of it. I've been looking forward to this series and appreciate the time and effort it takes to present it. Thank you.
Thank you for that. It is a bit of extra work to get these things done. But people seem to be appreciating it.
As someone who was firmly atop Mt. Stupid only a few years ago, I’d strongly recommend buying a training rifle in a cheap caliber that will be blown around in the wind. 308 or 223. Talk about being humbled!
Also the amount of scenarios where you’ll be faced with 4 to 500 yard plus shots where you can build a solid position and can successfully recover your game are way less common than most think. I’ve hunted Colorado a lot and most shots have been within 300 yards
I agree that a basic 223 and factory ammo or a 308 with the same, is very humbling and a great learning tool. However, it can cause new guys to get really discouraged and give up the sport. Because it's so unforgiving.
I think you make a great point about western hunting. It's not that long shots "can't" occur, it's that building a solid position in the mountains, isn't as easy as people think it is, if they haven't done it.
Thanks for watching.
@@LittleCrowGunworksthanks for the great videos!
Thanks you for the support.
Awesome information!
Glad you think so!
Thanks for watching!
How do you check where your beam is on your range finder?
Lot of perspective and great data points. My opinion will always change with clean presented facts. Thank you.
You're welcome. Thank you for your time!
I think it’s important to not overcorrect on BC in the other direction. I know you are trying to make a point on the BC craze, and I agree with you on the outer end.
But the 7mm is the best case caliber and in reality folks are shooting bullets that are way worse on aerodynamics than the Interlock 175 you ref here.
Just take the deadly 150 grain green mushroom as example for the old fashioned SPs out there - G1 BC of .346 vs. the Interlock with .462.
And things get way more pronounced on other calibers and cartridges. Great oddball example is the 35 Whelen where a 225 standard AccuBond with a pedestrian .43 makes everything else look like a barn door 😂
I used the 175 Interlock because it is the same weight as the 175 ELDX. Using 150gr and under, dumpy bullets isn't relevant for the discussion. Nobody with any sense is shooting a 150gr Core Lokt at 600yds for any reason, unless it's on a bet and beer is involved.
There are a million examples I could have used. The 3 I chose adequately made the point. As indicated by the comments.
@@LittleCrowGunworks as said, I agree with your position and yes the InterIock made sense.
What I was trying to say is that there is still a sizable population of hunters with their Partitions and other classics that would do well thinking about BC, even at 300 yards.
For example I ran the numbers for a friend with a 20“ 300 WM on a 190 grain ABLR vs. the 180 grain .35 G1 BC factory load he currently uses. At 200 yards the ABLR is over 600 ft-lb ahead
Oh ok. Now I get what you're saying. Yes it matters at all ranges.
I am really enjoying this series. I’ve never been a big BC guy, but your analytical data on the smaller % of difference the ES made was eye opening. I’ll definitely look at things differently now. Looking forward to the rest of the series. Thanks for doing this.
I'm glad it was worth your time. Yeah the ES and the Group size/precision is very eye opening. The wind and distance error swallows up your painstaking load development.
Happy to help. Thanks for watching!
Thank you, I really enjoyed watching this video and while not quite drinking from the firehose, I feel like I learned more in the time spent watching this video than I have in all the hours spent watching so many others. I'm not a long range shooter, but I very interested in learning about it. I finally feel like I found a good source to get a foundation.
Wow. I'll take that compliment. It seems like a lot of folks are finding value in it. I just need to stay on my game. Thanks for joining us.