To the guys saying "10lb 11oz is heavy" I just have one answer - And it's the same one I tell myself, and the same theory I have always had. If a 10lb rifle is "too heavy" then you need to build muscle. I get that oz = lbs in a back country hunt (and in any hunt, to be fair - A 10lber is less fun to haul into a tree stand than a 7lber) and even to carry to the range - but there are places to skimp, and places not to. Ultralight garments, tent, sleeping bag, pack? Absolutely. Rifle? No - and for every reason you went over. I'm looking forward to replacing the OEM carbon fiber on my X-bolt with a MacMillan; it's not going to be a 'huge' weight gain, and a 280ackley isn't exactly a bucker, but any extra moment of stability is critical, to my mind.
Agree about the weight - with one caveat. Mine are mostly between 10-13 lbs with the exception of one 7LB 7PRC. The one caveat is this - Learn to shoot with both eyes open without flinching and you will have no issues spotting your target for a follow up shot, even if you are zoomed in all the way on your scope. 2 years back I took a buck at just under 50 yards, rattled him into the bush... Looked at my scope after the shot magnification was still set at 10 he came in so quick. Chuckled.. but it didn't cause any problems... wish I could say the same for the ELD-X bullet at that range. I prefer shooting free recoil and that light carbon fiber makes it a challenge with a magnum (and I don't hunt with a muzzle brake!), it will be going for sale because I don't want to change a method that works for everything else I shoot just for one rifle.
Not a long range hunting guy. If a moose, caribou or black bear is past my 6" MPBR for a given load/rifle I'm not shooting. But this series is giving me a lot to think about when it comes to load development. If I never use this information it is still interesting as hell. Thanks for the clear no-nonsense presentation.
I tell you what- - - You are a joy to watch on these videos. Like your honesty, it shows you have a great passion for this industry. Blessings your way my friend. Again, thanks for all your efforts making these videos.
Thanks for the support Ryan. The internet is so frustrating. I have basically stopped contributing/removed myself from all the gun groups. Not worth the time.
I just started some exploratory load development in a new 7PRC. The results were quite surprising 175ELDX, H1000, new ADG brass, Fed215 match primer 66.0 gr - 2841.5fps 67.0 gr - 2844.4 67.5 gr - 2844.5 68.0 gr - 2898.0 68.5 gr - 2897.1 69.0 gr - 2942.6 That was as high as I loaded for that rifle that day. No pressure signs at all. Planning to test Retumbo, VVN565, 568, 570. I think I can get around 3000fps. The velocities with H1000 were very tight from 66 to 67.5 grains, then 68 to 68.5 grains. These low test numbers all need confirmation of course but I plan to keep adding powder. Those 5 shots were all in a 1.25" zone
I won't be surprised if you get the 175gr to 3000. But that isn't the most important metric for this job. 1.Range 2. Wind 3. Reliable point of impact 4. Group anywhere under 1" 5. Velocity 6. ES
@@LittleCrowGunworks Even if I can maintain 2950 that's fine with me. By contrast, I'm getting 3300fps in one of my 280AIs with a 139 LRX, 24" Bartlein and Defiance action. I'd have to calculate numbers but at 500 yards, what, if any, real world difference would a cow elk know if it was hit accurately by that v a 175ELDX at 2950.
You will have more inches of penetration, more danger space and less recoil with the 139 LRX. But also less energy on arrival and more wind drift. Hit probabilities will be very similar within reasonable ranges.
I am really looking forward to the next 7PRC vid! I did a similar ladder with my 24" x-bolt mt pro and had very similar results albeit 40-60fps slower - my sweet spots are around 2950 and 3000. Best powders were also H4831 and N560. I tried N565 as well - some sweet spots a bit higher up - 3000 and 3050ish but the ladder groups were better with the prior 2. I noticed the same phenomenon with the shots closest to group center were about the same velocities. I had used ladder testing in the past but just focused on velocity flat spots. This method seems quite a bit more thoughtful. Thanks! Good to see some great internet reloading content from my MN brothers! (originally from St. Paul/Afton) Keep 'em coming!!
Hey thanks man! I'm happy you're finding value in it and it's working for you. I though about using N565 for the PRC and 7 Mag but it's a little slow for the 7 PRC case volume. I was born and raised in St. Paul. Bought a house in the burbs when I was 27. You keep watchin'em, I'll keep makin'em!
Tim I agree with almost everything you are preaching. It's good to hear from someone who isn't paid to pimp the latest and greatest on the market. Your powder choices and experiences match mine. Being a left eyed right handed guy myself I've just shot right hand rifles lefty for years and learned to open my right eye to see my bubble level.
Thank you for the support. I don't expect everyone to COMPLETELY agree with me, no worries. I shoot right and left handed at Prairie Dogs. But if I want peak precision, I shoot right handed.
Im left eye dominant and right handed and my dad started me shooting a rifle and bow left handed when i was a kid. I'm glad he did .@LittleCrowGunworks
@littlecrowgunworks thank you so much again for this series. I continue to learn with each and every video in the series (entertained as well.) I have a question about your test shooting...how much time are you leaving between groups for barrel cooling? Also, I just received my WFT in the mail earlier this week. I had a question and Steve on the phone was very helpful. Seems your company has a good group of guys working there for sure. Thanks again.
Hey Steve, thank you for that! We appreciate the support and honest feedback. Steve ships most of our orders and fields most of the phone calls. He's a great guy and valuable part of the team. I don't shoot the sweet spots as groups. I shoot "Round Robin" style with a chamber chiller in the barrel for 90 to 120 seconds between shots. That way, EVERY variable is evenly distributed across the test, and no specific load gets special treatment. Barrel heat, heat soak, mirage, shooter fatigue, weather conditions, etc is ALL evenly distributed across the groups. For example: the 7828 group of three shots that made that .174" group; were shots 18, 23 & 34 for the day on that 7 PRC. If you test Round Robin, and it STILL shoots small, then you know you're on to something.
Wow. Excellent information about the round Robin style shooting. I would have never thought to test like that. I've wondered how much impact changing weather/sun/wind/barrel conditions have made on my groups and not had a good way to account for that. I like this idea a lot. Thanks again for sharing!
I’m really looking forward to doing some more load development now. Since playing with Gordon’s reloading tool program I’ve learned none of my loads are burning all the powder. Most of my powders are too slow a burn rate.
Thank you for the straight forward, no bs information. Lots of knowledge in these videos. I was looking to move up in caliber and wanted a magnum cartridge (currently shooting 6.5 creedmore). Due to my location the more exotic ammo types would be harder to find, so I was eyeing up a 7PRC and plan on shooting factory Hornady ammo. Mostly shooting axis deer. Should I stick with the prc or get something else? Thanks again for the awesome content
Glad I can accommodate. I have the no BS thing figured out. The 7 PRC is a fine cartridge. It's overkill for Axis Deer. But there's no such thing as too dead.
One thing that can make a group move is sun putting more heat on one side of the scope vs the other. That can explain groups migrating from one hour to the next with the same load.
Here my 7prc experience. I bought a browning x bolt speed lr it comes with a 26" barrel. Hornady precision hunter ammo shot right at 2900 and it shoots about 3/4-7/8 inch. With Hornady match it shoots at 2890 and just over an inch. Both shoot great out to distance. The best group I've gotten out of it was at 400 yards from the bench. I was confirming drops for a spring bear hunt. So from 400 yards off the bench I shot a 3 shot group into 1.3 inches. Of course that's a tiny sample size one time from the bench
Hey Jack, Hornady should hire you for gun shows. 1.3 at 400 with factory ammo. What am I doing wrong loading and testing? Plus the time watching these videos, learning and copious note taking. My wife better not find out! Lol
I'm finally seeing a logical procedure for load development step by step. I really appreciate all the knowledge you are passing along. When you said that part about going uh, and just picking something out of a book and hope you get lucky, that is exactly the way I felt. I had been told by a good friend when I started, only use the stuff in the book because it's safe, it's been tested, but I felt like there had to be more to it. I downloaded GRT and I have played around with it a little bit, hoping I can get acquainted enough with it to do some load development soon.
Thank you for that Mark. I developed this method, out of frustration with the common methods out there. I was always frustrated with the process and the results. I spent SO MUCH time and resources BEFORE I developed this process. I use to spend 100 to 300 rounds on load development. To get 10% better than what I get now in 10 to 50 rounds. I appreciate your support.
With the ph ammo from Hornady. They sent an email saying they were having a hard time securing the powder that it was originally developed with. After much testing they found an alternate powder that gave the same accuracy. So instead of putting that product line on hold they went ahead and released it with the alternate powder. Itd be nice if they posted something on their website instead of waiting for customers to contact them but what do you do
I’m in the market for a new 7mm. After watching this series I’m definitely interested in doing business with you guys. Curious as to what the total cost of this exact rifle set up was if you were to build another one today? Also, do you use proofs “pre-fit” zermatt barrels for these builds?
Hey there, that's great to hear! Please call our office line 320-796-0530. I'm only on the office one day per week right now. Leave your contact info with the guys and they will get it to me. I will reach out to you to discuss your needs and pricing. Little changes in options can change the price, so these things are best discussed over a phone call. We don't use pre-fit barrels for anything we build. We start with a barrel blank and we chamber and thread every one. I look forward to hearing from you. Tim
When you picked your sweet spots did you pick one of the charge weights of the 2 bullets in the 10 shot group or did you go in between those 2 charge weights
I’ve watched each video up until this one. I have a question regarding bullet seating for ladder testing (I apologize if you addressed this and I missed this answer). Since seating depth effects pressure and velocity, how do you decide on bullet seating depths for a ladder test? Do you have a recommended seating depth for a ladder test?
I didn't cover it. Use the Hornady Lock-N-Load tools and modified cases. Those tools give you "Touch". Start .020" shorter than that. No need to go closer. If you end up doing a seating depth test later. You should seat deeper in the case, which will reduce pressure; until the powder is heavily compressed. Then the pressure will skyrocket as you seat deeper and deeper (More heavily compressed). It's a U shaped curve. With Touch at one end and heavily compressed at the other end. But as you get closer than .020", pressure rises very quickly.
I wish this video existed last october. Still appreciate the info. Will try to make the best of my 22" 7 PRC. It'll get a longer carbon barrel at some point. Probably pursue some N165
Sorry I was too late for ya. Don't sweat it man, you're still gonna kill stuff. You're giving up a little energy and hit probability. Not the end of the world. But given a choice, I take the long barrel every time.
Well, I drink your Kool-Aid. I also drink Hornady Kool-Aid, but you have to be objective. I think you’re right 100% at the time. Please remember 60% of people are stupid and some of us don’t realize it. I am 100% behind you. You’re absolutely right you seem to have a good balance on your videos and we love that here in South Florida. Keep them coming. We are enjoying your Kool-Aid.
Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate your consistent positivity and eagerness to learn. Makes it easy to keep doing these. The next one will blow everyone's hair back. I can't wait.
@wyattlavallee8078 in .4gr increments for cartridges this size. That allows us to go from approximately 54k psi to 65k psi in only 10 shots. You should use Gordons to determine the step size for your cartridge. I would never test below 52k and going over 65k, youre just hemorrhaging brass AND barrel life. It's a very crude test, but it covers the pressure range you SHOULD stay within for optimal performance and brass life. I would call anything over 64k "The ragged edge."
@@LittleCrowGunworks good to know run mac so no access to grt I’ve been doing round robin ocws and had pretty good luck so far but this would be easier
I have the mbm ti beast on my 7prc build. It's great on recoil reduction but abusive to anybody to your right or left at the range 😂😂. I went with a 24" 1:8 preferred carbon barrel, wish I'd seen this first i would probably have gone longer. Cest la vie, hopefully i can take all this new knowledge and get some good loads for it anyway!
It'll shoot. It's not as fast as advertised. But it is easier to make shoot than almost any cartridge I've ever loaded. Even with a 24" it will do just fine. I like the free velocity that longer barrels offer, but they're not for everyone.
First off Tim I’d like to say thank you for your time in putting all of this together and making it “understandable “. I have enjoyed the entire series and I’m looking forward to the rest of them. I’ve definitely learned some things and you have opened my eyes to some different ways to do things. I do have one question on this video. I understand that you’re keeping particular measurements under your hat, but is your seating depth on the CX at least .050” off the lands like most copper/monolithic recommends? Have a great day
Thank you for the support. I'm happy this is resonating with/helping so many people. No, we're under .050" jump. Not saying more jump won't work. Dale found a load in the 28 Nosler that was jumping .125"
Thanks for the reply. I just finished the 7 Mag video. It was a great one also. I was curious about your jump with the CX. I’ve shot a lot of TTSX’s, GMX, and E Tips and I’ve always started .050” off the lands. I was just wondering if there was any validity to the recommendation of .050”. Thanks
Nah not really. I think bullet seating is a way to manipulate pressure and barrel timing. Nothing more. I don't think bullets "like" any particular jump. What I said about the 7 Mag and the jump. What's underneath my comment is that the velocity range I'm operating in and the jump I'm using, may not be an optimal match. I could likely jump less OR more and this thing will come to life.
Kind of been paying attention to the gospel that is these videos all the way through. Really curious about y’all’s opinion on something like the ec tuner I know you mentioned Erik previously in your video just wondered what kind of success you’ve had or if you’ve tried them
Thanks for sticking with us. I have a few of his Tuner Brakes. They work as advertised. But I would say, like Erik, that they can tighten up a good load. But they won't turn a bad load into a good load. I will say that as a Muzzle Brake, they are VERY mediocre. There are way more efficient muzzle brakes out there.
@@LittleCrowGunworks thank you for the two cents! Got a load worked up I’m happy with just spending as much time taking cold call shots in different scenarios and distances
Doesn't matter. They all shoot. The 5R is easier to clean and easier on lead core bullet jackets. But the 6 groove offers more bite on monolithic bullets. But in general, they both shoot.
In most cases I saw barrels settle down quick but my 6.5 creed savage ultra lite. Was not happy at 20, 30, 40 rounds. Ladder tests were erratic. So bought a bunch of fmj and just shot 10 clean till round count hit 120. Re-did the same ladder tests and it climbed evenly that time. Finally groups were .2-.3”. 300 yards multiple group aggregate was just under 2”. It was the only rifle I had act like that. All my others I usually do 20-40 to settle them.
Yes a factory Savage barrel and ANY custom barrel have almost nothing in common. Savage barrels have so many tooling marks in them that they take much longer to settle down. Every Savage barrel I own, I shot a full box of "Tubb Final Finish" bullets down it before I even put a scope on the gun. They shoot great after the Final Finish Bullets.
@@LittleCrowGunworks this is great to know. Yeah I believe these barrels are chambered by proof. If the rifle has issues and is sent back then savage does the chamber. This has been my experience with the ultralite. But it shoots lights out now. Consistent 2” groups at 300 yards. Our range is in the deep woods so less affected by wind.
Bravo. Once more. You put together in a couple of minutes (I'know what's behind) what's has taken 50 years yo me to figure out. Thanks. Hope new shooters appreciate it.
That Outfitter ammo is shooting 3/8" for 3 shots in my Tikka 7PRC. Got 3 cases of it for $33/box delivered. I did take it out 3 Friday's in a row and shot two 3 shot groups each day. You are correct. Groups did get to half inch and one of those 3 shot groups was just about one hole, so they did very. Curiously, it has a prefit Proof barrel. The rifle builder who installed the barrel for me said he doesn't care for prefits but it's working for me.
@@Andrew-jm4tp gun broker auction. The seller must have had a palate of the stuff. Once the first few cases sold at higher bids I guess most people that wanted it stopped bidding
Shot yesterday Hornady Precision Hunter 175 ELDX from my B14 Crest 22” barrel. Purchased a couple months ago at local Sportsman’s. Chronograph at 2830 fps. Very disappointing ammo.
My PH 175gr. ELD-X ammo lot averaged "only" 2910fps out of my 22" proof barrel, but shot 1/2" averaged over 60 rounds, and took a 7x7 bull elk at long range. Speed isn't everything. You need to develop confidence in knowing where your bullet is going to hit.
Keep up the great videos! i am learing a ton from the series so far. I have question for you. It seems like the common reason decide to reload is to increase velocity and accuracy over factory offerings. this seems to mean that you are increasing pressure via more powder or using double based powders that will give you the desired velocity or you start to see signs of over pressure. I see people who will take a 7 rem mag and "step on it" to get some really impressive velocities but are running high pressures to get there. Wouldn't it makes more sense to just step up to a larger cartridge IE 28 nosler and run a single based powder and gain not only safer pressures but the use of the more historically accurate powders while gaining velocity?
You hit the nail square Matthew. Many people take pride in professing how their cartridge and bullet setup is achieving some unrealistic velocity. The truth is they are WAY overpressure and horrendous brass life. You are correct, it is way more logical to select a bigger cartridge and run it mild with a single base powder if peak precision is your goal. Thanks for your support.
@@LittleCrowGunworks glad to hear I am understanding things correctly. I recently picked up a 28 nosler over a 7prc as I was hoping to run it at moderate pressures with a stable powder and get better accuracy and brass life than a souped up 7rem. I am new to this and still learning which is why I appreciate your videos. I live in Duluth Mn but if i ever get down south Id like check out the shop.
Thanks again for all this info. I really enjoyed it and a great learning for me coming out of these videos. Really enjoyed it looking forward to the next one.
This was a great video, Tim. I wish I would not have bought my Bergara B14 squared crest in 7 PRC and went with your rifle instead. That’s pretty much the way I would have ordered it.
Thanks Ed! I'm glad you like it. Apparently, we have similar taste. If you get to the point where you want something built, let us know. We'll take care of you.
Curious as to how you chose N560 over 565 or 570. I'm no expert but would have probably started with slower burning VV powders. Not being critical, just want to know your thought process on that so I can learn something. Thanks.
Good question. For the 7 PRC, with N565 we needed to be at 59k PSI before 100% of the powder burns. That's a little high. We probably could have tried it. Also at peak pressure, we would have been pretty compressed. But the max velocity would have gone up by maybe 100fps. N570 is WAY too bulky and slow burning for that size case. To get to 65k PSI, you're at 107% fill ratio, which you can't actually fit that much in the case. And even if you could, only 97.2% of the powder burns...that's a complete no go. It's too slow.
I’m left eye dominant right handed. I’ve use both left and right bolt for hunting and shooting. While at the bench it’s fine using right bolt but in the field much prefer left bolt.
have you seen that issue alot of people are seeing with clickers after 3-4 firings on the cartridge i guess due to the back end of the chamber being slightly tight and is making that web area of the cartridge stick ?
So... half of the videos, the comments were turned off. Which I didn't do. Clearly, as all the videos have comments on them. Which would mean that I would have had to gone into half of the videos one by one and turn the comments off. Which I didn't even know how to do, until I figured it out just now. Which means YT is trying to throttle our channel down.
Nice shooting. If you have N565, give that a try. I’m getting 3200 fps out of two Seekins PH2’s 7mm PRC with Hammer HHT 170 gr bullets. CCI 200 primers, virgin Peterson brass and .283 expander mandrel. I’m getting groups in the .2-.8 moa on both guns. I’m 90 rounds down the barrel of each.
@@LittleCrowGunworks not in my guns and that was at 100 degrees weather. I’ll find out what my wife’s mule deer and cousin’s cow elk say about the pressure they get from these loads lol
@@ArpexOfficial how many grains of 565 is that? I experienced the same type of velocity with my 300 PRC and 212 grain ELDX. The pressure signs are very minimal and if I back it off a grain I’m still well over 3000 with no pressure signs. it’s confusing to be honest. I hear the book numbers are conservative and then you’ll hear some people say velocity is a sign of pressure while others say look for pressure on your casings and rifle action. It’s all very confusing.
Hornady should publish the lot numbers with reduced velocity. They obviously know this information. Keeping us customers guessing is what makes me angry. I can forgive the powder shortage, but I can't forgive the bait and switch.
LOL, with the abundance of time I have? Andrew is right. They should publish it on their website. If you have time, I can give you the lot numbers we have and you can sit on hold? I'm trying to make videos for you guys, not waste my time on Hornady's internal issues.
@@LittleCrowGunworks i’m not saying they shouldn’t advertise it on their site. What I am saying…and what you seem to be tap dancing around is the fact that you talk and spread gossip or rumors when you could’ve put in the time and ask them. If you don’t know for a fact and can verify it from the people who have that correct information your video that you work so hard on has invalid points and becomes essentially worthless.
I’m sorry but your just wrong on the group size. My iron sight mosin is post code accurate Every! Single! Time! no matter what day nigh rain shine it’s always the same. Loving the series keep it up
Don't let the stupid people get to you. Yup, we all know we have to change your powder.Charge from day to day according to weather. Correct i'm looking for a gun that will shoot half inch or under each in every day. Even. Though on someday,s I can shoot well below 1/4 inch. welcome to the world a bench rest shooting.
Benchrest is a different game. I EXPECT you guys to stay under 1/4" all day at 100yds. But you're relative POI, ES, energy and terminal performance is irrelevant. You don't have ANY restrictions, compared to hunting rifle load development. Group size is your ONLY concern. That's quite a luxury.
To the guys saying "10lb 11oz is heavy" I just have one answer - And it's the same one I tell myself, and the same theory I have always had.
If a 10lb rifle is "too heavy" then you need to build muscle.
I get that oz = lbs in a back country hunt (and in any hunt, to be fair - A 10lber is less fun to haul into a tree stand than a 7lber) and even to carry to the range - but there are places to skimp, and places not to. Ultralight garments, tent, sleeping bag, pack? Absolutely. Rifle? No - and for every reason you went over. I'm looking forward to replacing the OEM carbon fiber on my X-bolt with a MacMillan; it's not going to be a 'huge' weight gain, and a 280ackley isn't exactly a bucker, but any extra moment of stability is critical, to my mind.
Amen.
A 10lb rifle in a magnum with all the goodies is not heavy. Very well put, bud!
Agree about the weight - with one caveat. Mine are mostly between 10-13 lbs with the exception of one 7LB 7PRC. The one caveat is this - Learn to shoot with both eyes open without flinching and you will have no issues spotting your target for a follow up shot, even if you are zoomed in all the way on your scope. 2 years back I took a buck at just under 50 yards, rattled him into the bush... Looked at my scope after the shot magnification was still set at 10 he came in so quick. Chuckled.. but it didn't cause any problems... wish I could say the same for the ELD-X bullet at that range.
I prefer shooting free recoil and that light carbon fiber makes it a challenge with a magnum (and I don't hunt with a muzzle brake!), it will be going for sale because I don't want to change a method that works for everything else I shoot just for one rifle.
Probably the best load development piece I've seen together with the Ladder test video, and I have seen a lot! :-)
Not a long range hunting guy. If a moose, caribou or black bear is past my 6" MPBR for a given load/rifle I'm not shooting. But this series is giving me a lot to think about when it comes to load development. If I never use this information it is still interesting as hell. Thanks for the clear no-nonsense presentation.
I appreciate the honesty. Never say never. You might stumble over to the dark side at some point.
I tell you what- - - You are a joy to watch on these videos. Like your honesty, it shows you have a great passion for this industry.
Blessings your way my friend.
Again, thanks for all your efforts making these videos.
Wow, thank you! I appreciate the support. It is a lot of work, but I know we're helping people. That certainly helps keep things going.
The load development information is a game changer. Thank you.
Thanks Mark!
Thank you for your content.
Im a rifle builder too and I have to agree... there is a TON of ignorance, chest-beating, and BS on "the internet."
Thanks for the support Ryan. The internet is so frustrating. I have basically stopped contributing/removed myself from all the gun groups. Not worth the time.
Love this series!!! Learning alot more then I knew before that's for sure !! I just did up loads for my 338-378 Wby this method worked fantastic!!
Hey alright! That's another one in the "It's helping me" column.
I just started some exploratory load development in a new 7PRC. The results were quite surprising
175ELDX, H1000, new ADG brass, Fed215 match primer
66.0 gr - 2841.5fps
67.0 gr - 2844.4
67.5 gr - 2844.5
68.0 gr - 2898.0
68.5 gr - 2897.1
69.0 gr - 2942.6
That was as high as I loaded for that rifle that day. No pressure signs at all. Planning to test Retumbo, VVN565, 568, 570. I think I can get around 3000fps. The velocities with H1000 were very tight from 66 to 67.5 grains, then 68 to 68.5 grains. These low test numbers all need confirmation of course but I plan to keep adding powder. Those 5 shots were all in a 1.25" zone
I won't be surprised if you get the 175gr to 3000. But that isn't the most important metric for this job.
1.Range
2. Wind
3. Reliable point of impact
4. Group anywhere under 1"
5. Velocity
6. ES
@@LittleCrowGunworks Even if I can maintain 2950 that's fine with me. By contrast, I'm getting 3300fps in one of my 280AIs with a 139 LRX, 24" Bartlein and Defiance action. I'd have to calculate numbers but at 500 yards, what, if any, real world difference would a cow elk know if it was hit accurately by that v a 175ELDX at 2950.
You will have more inches of penetration, more danger space and less recoil with the 139 LRX. But also less energy on arrival and more wind drift. Hit probabilities will be very similar within reasonable ranges.
I am really looking forward to the next 7PRC vid! I did a similar ladder with my 24" x-bolt mt pro and had very similar results albeit 40-60fps slower - my sweet spots are around 2950 and 3000. Best powders were also H4831 and N560. I tried N565 as well - some sweet spots a bit higher up - 3000 and 3050ish but the ladder groups were better with the prior 2. I noticed the same phenomenon with the shots closest to group center were about the same velocities. I had used ladder testing in the past but just focused on velocity flat spots. This method seems quite a bit more thoughtful. Thanks! Good to see some great internet reloading content from my MN brothers! (originally from St. Paul/Afton) Keep 'em coming!!
Hey thanks man! I'm happy you're finding value in it and it's working for you. I though about using N565 for the PRC and 7 Mag but it's a little slow for the 7 PRC case volume.
I was born and raised in St. Paul. Bought a house in the burbs when I was 27.
You keep watchin'em, I'll keep makin'em!
Tim I agree with almost everything you are preaching. It's good to hear from someone who isn't paid to pimp the latest and greatest on the market. Your powder choices and experiences match mine. Being a left eyed right handed guy myself I've just shot right hand rifles lefty for years and learned to open my right eye to see my bubble level.
Thank you for the support. I don't expect everyone to COMPLETELY agree with me, no worries. I shoot right and left handed at Prairie Dogs. But if I want peak precision, I shoot right handed.
Im left eye dominant and right handed and my dad started me shooting a rifle and bow left handed when i was a kid. I'm glad he did .@LittleCrowGunworks
Great series Tim! Thank you for the content.
Thank you for the consistent support. Helps keep this thing going.
@littlecrowgunworks thank you so much again for this series. I continue to learn with each and every video in the series (entertained as well.) I have a question about your test shooting...how much time are you leaving between groups for barrel cooling? Also, I just received my WFT in the mail earlier this week. I had a question and Steve on the phone was very helpful. Seems your company has a good group of guys working there for sure. Thanks again.
Hey Steve, thank you for that! We appreciate the support and honest feedback. Steve ships most of our orders and fields most of the phone calls. He's a great guy and valuable part of the team.
I don't shoot the sweet spots as groups. I shoot "Round Robin" style with a chamber chiller in the barrel for 90 to 120 seconds between shots. That way, EVERY variable is evenly distributed across the test, and no specific load gets special treatment.
Barrel heat, heat soak, mirage, shooter fatigue, weather conditions, etc is ALL evenly distributed across the groups. For example: the 7828 group of three shots that made that .174" group; were shots 18, 23 & 34 for the day on that 7 PRC.
If you test Round Robin, and it STILL shoots small, then you know you're on to something.
Wow. Excellent information about the round Robin style shooting. I would have never thought to test like that. I've wondered how much impact changing weather/sun/wind/barrel conditions have made on my groups and not had a good way to account for that. I like this idea a lot. Thanks again for sharing!
No problem Steve, good luck!
Late to the party today… great stuff as always!! Best series around this topic by far that I’ve watched.
Thank you for that, we try!
I’m really looking forward to doing some more load development now. Since playing with Gordon’s reloading tool program I’ve learned none of my loads are burning all the powder. Most of my powders are too slow a burn rate.
You're not alone Daniel. Probably 80% or better of published load data isn't burning 100%.
Thank you for the straight forward, no bs information. Lots of knowledge in these videos. I was looking to move up in caliber and wanted a magnum cartridge (currently shooting 6.5 creedmore). Due to my location the more exotic ammo types would be harder to find, so I was eyeing up a 7PRC and plan on shooting factory Hornady ammo. Mostly shooting axis deer. Should I stick with the prc or get something else? Thanks again for the awesome content
Glad I can accommodate. I have the no BS thing figured out. The 7 PRC is a fine cartridge. It's overkill for Axis Deer. But there's no such thing as too dead.
@@LittleCrowGunworks copy that. 7mm PRC = deader + quicker. 😉😎
One thing that can make a group move is sun putting more heat on one side of the scope vs the other. That can explain groups migrating from one hour to the next with the same load.
Keep up the good work. You are making a positive difference in the way I look at data, and how I do load developement. Thankyou.
Awesome, thanks. I'm glad it's helping you!
Here my 7prc experience. I bought a browning x bolt speed lr it comes with a 26" barrel.
Hornady precision hunter ammo shot right at 2900 and it shoots about 3/4-7/8 inch.
With Hornady match it shoots at 2890 and just over an inch. Both shoot great out to distance.
The best group I've gotten out of it was at 400 yards from the bench. I was confirming drops for a spring bear hunt. So from 400 yards off the bench I shot a 3 shot group into 1.3 inches. Of course that's a tiny sample size one time from the bench
That's still in handloading territory. Even with reduced velocity. If it's shooting that well, the 100fps loss doesn't matter as much.
Hey Jack, Hornady should hire you for gun shows. 1.3 at 400 with factory ammo. What am I doing wrong loading and testing? Plus the time watching these videos, learning and copious note taking. My wife better not find out! Lol
@@KB-ld6ql like I said. One group, one time, with only 3 shots.
Lights out as always. 👍👏👏👏
Thanks Justin!
I'm finally seeing a logical procedure for load development step by step. I really appreciate all the knowledge you are passing along. When you said that part about going uh, and just picking something out of a book and hope you get lucky, that is exactly the way I felt. I had been told by a good friend when I started, only use the stuff in the book because it's safe, it's been tested, but I felt like there had to be more to it. I downloaded GRT and I have played around with it a little bit, hoping I can get acquainted enough with it to do some load development soon.
Thank you for that Mark. I developed this method, out of frustration with the common methods out there. I was always frustrated with the process and the results. I spent SO MUCH time and resources BEFORE I developed this process.
I use to spend 100 to 300 rounds on load development. To get 10% better than what I get now in 10 to 50 rounds.
I appreciate your support.
With the ph ammo from Hornady. They sent an email saying they were having a hard time securing the powder that it was originally developed with. After much testing they found an alternate powder that gave the same accuracy. So instead of putting that product line on hold they went ahead and released it with the alternate powder.
Itd be nice if they posted something on their website instead of waiting for customers to contact them but what do you do
Right, I did hear that as well. I'm assuming what I shot was the original lot from the first release.
@@LittleCrowGunworks But they should change the box velocity to provide accurate consumer information.
I like this dude..
Welcome aboard Logan.
I’m in the market for a new 7mm. After watching this series I’m definitely interested in doing business with you guys. Curious as to what the total cost of this exact rifle set up was if you were to build another one today? Also, do you use proofs “pre-fit” zermatt barrels for these builds?
Hey there, that's great to hear! Please call our office line 320-796-0530. I'm only on the office one day per week right now. Leave your contact info with the guys and they will get it to me. I will reach out to you to discuss your needs and pricing. Little changes in options can change the price, so these things are best discussed over a phone call.
We don't use pre-fit barrels for anything we build. We start with a barrel blank and we chamber and thread every one.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Tim
Great video Tim, enjoying this series, learning a lot!
Thanks Philip!
When you picked your sweet spots did you pick one of the charge weights of the 2 bullets in the 10 shot group or did you go in between those 2 charge weights
If it's two shots touching I test in between. If it's 3 shots touching I test the middle charge.
Awesome series. Very informative!! Thank you
Thanks Jeremy. Thanks for the feedback!
I’ve watched each video up until this one. I have a question regarding bullet seating for ladder testing (I apologize if you addressed this and I missed this answer).
Since seating depth effects pressure and velocity, how do you decide on bullet seating depths for a ladder test? Do you have a recommended seating depth for a ladder test?
I didn't cover it. Use the Hornady Lock-N-Load tools and modified cases. Those tools give you "Touch".
Start .020" shorter than that. No need to go closer. If you end up doing a seating depth test later. You should seat deeper in the case, which will reduce pressure; until the powder is heavily compressed. Then the pressure will skyrocket as you seat deeper and deeper (More heavily compressed). It's a U shaped curve. With Touch at one end and heavily compressed at the other end.
But as you get closer than .020", pressure rises very quickly.
Great video! Same thoughts on suppressors, same thoughts on muzzle brakes (I have terminators). Kindred spirits
Right on. You get it Jack...
I wish this video existed last october. Still appreciate the info. Will try to make the best of my 22" 7 PRC. It'll get a longer carbon barrel at some point. Probably pursue some N165
Sorry I was too late for ya. Don't sweat it man, you're still gonna kill stuff. You're giving up a little energy and hit probability. Not the end of the world.
But given a choice, I take the long barrel every time.
@LittleCrowGunworks oh most definitely I will but you've given me some important considerations when it comes to how I choose to set up my rifles.
Well, I drink your Kool-Aid. I also drink Hornady Kool-Aid, but you have to be objective. I think you’re right 100% at the time.
Please remember 60% of people are stupid and some of us don’t realize it.
I am 100% behind you. You’re absolutely right you seem to have a good balance on your videos and we love that here in South Florida. Keep them coming. We are enjoying your Kool-Aid.
Thank you for the feedback. I appreciate your consistent positivity and eagerness to learn. Makes it easy to keep doing these. The next one will blow everyone's hair back.
I can't wait.
I’d be excited for those federal terminal ascents if I owned a 7prc they’re looking good
We may test those 170's at some point. Looks good to me too.
@@LittleCrowGunworksdid I miss somewhere the increments you go up on your charge weights for initial 10 shot load development
@wyattlavallee8078 in .4gr increments for cartridges this size. That allows us to go from approximately 54k psi to 65k psi in only 10 shots. You should use Gordons to determine the step size for your cartridge. I would never test below 52k and going over 65k, youre just hemorrhaging brass AND barrel life.
It's a very crude test, but it covers the pressure range you SHOULD stay within for optimal performance and brass life. I would call anything over 64k "The ragged edge."
@@LittleCrowGunworks good to know run mac so no access to grt I’ve been doing round robin ocws and had pretty good luck so far but this would be easier
I have the mbm ti beast on my 7prc build. It's great on recoil reduction but abusive to anybody to your right or left at the range 😂😂. I went with a 24" 1:8 preferred carbon barrel, wish I'd seen this first i would probably have gone longer. Cest la vie, hopefully i can take all this new knowledge and get some good loads for it anyway!
It'll shoot. It's not as fast as advertised. But it is easier to make shoot than almost any cartridge I've ever loaded. Even with a 24" it will do just fine. I like the free velocity that longer barrels offer, but they're not for everyone.
First off Tim I’d like to say thank you for your time in putting all of this together and making it “understandable “. I have enjoyed the entire series and I’m looking forward to the rest of them. I’ve definitely learned some things and you have opened my eyes to some different ways to do things. I do have one question on this video. I understand that you’re keeping particular measurements under your hat, but is your seating depth on the CX at least .050” off the lands like most copper/monolithic recommends? Have a great day
Thank you for the support. I'm happy this is resonating with/helping so many people.
No, we're under .050" jump. Not saying more jump won't work. Dale found a load in the 28 Nosler that was jumping .125"
Thanks for the reply. I just finished the 7 Mag video. It was a great one also. I was curious about your jump with the CX. I’ve shot a lot of TTSX’s, GMX, and E Tips and I’ve always started .050” off the lands. I was just wondering if there was any validity to the recommendation of .050”. Thanks
Nah not really. I think bullet seating is a way to manipulate pressure and barrel timing. Nothing more. I don't think bullets "like" any particular jump. What I said about the 7 Mag and the jump. What's underneath my comment is that the velocity range I'm operating in and the jump I'm using, may not be an optimal match. I could likely jump less OR more and this thing will come to life.
Kind of been paying attention to the gospel that is these videos all the way through. Really curious about y’all’s opinion on something like the ec tuner I know you mentioned Erik previously in your video just wondered what kind of success you’ve had or if you’ve tried them
Thanks for sticking with us. I have a few of his Tuner Brakes. They work as advertised. But I would say, like Erik, that they can tighten up a good load. But they won't turn a bad load into a good load.
I will say that as a Muzzle Brake, they are VERY mediocre. There are way more efficient muzzle brakes out there.
@@LittleCrowGunworks thank you for the two cents! Got a load worked up I’m happy with just spending as much time taking cold call shots in different scenarios and distances
When building any of these 7mm rifles. Which type of rifling is best? 5R, 6 groove, ect?
Doesn't matter. They all shoot. The 5R is easier to clean and easier on lead core bullet jackets. But the 6 groove offers more bite on monolithic bullets. But in general, they both shoot.
Looking forward to seeing the next video
Thanks for the continued support Robert!
In most cases I saw barrels settle down quick but my 6.5 creed savage ultra lite. Was not happy at 20, 30, 40 rounds. Ladder tests were erratic. So bought a bunch of fmj and just shot 10 clean till round count hit 120. Re-did the same ladder tests and it climbed evenly that time. Finally groups were .2-.3”. 300 yards multiple group aggregate was just under 2”. It was the only rifle I had act like that. All my others I usually do 20-40 to settle them.
Yes a factory Savage barrel and ANY custom barrel have almost nothing in common. Savage barrels have so many tooling marks in them that they take much longer to settle down. Every Savage barrel I own, I shot a full box of "Tubb Final Finish" bullets down it before I even put a scope on the gun. They shoot great after the Final Finish Bullets.
@@LittleCrowGunworks this is great to know. Yeah I believe these barrels are chambered by proof. If the rifle has issues and is sent back then savage does the chamber. This has been my experience with the ultralite. But it shoots lights out now. Consistent 2” groups at 300 yards. Our range is in the deep woods so less affected by wind.
Sounds like you have a winner!
Bravo. Once more. You put together in a couple of minutes (I'know what's behind) what's has taken 50 years yo me to figure out. Thanks.
Hope new shooters appreciate it.
Thank you, sir! I hope they appreciate it too.
That Outfitter ammo is shooting 3/8" for 3 shots in my Tikka 7PRC. Got 3 cases of it for $33/box delivered. I did take it out 3 Friday's in a row and shot two 3 shot groups each day. You are correct. Groups did get to half inch and one of those 3 shot groups was just about one hole, so they did very. Curiously, it has a prefit Proof barrel. The rifle builder who installed the barrel for me said he doesn't care for prefits but it's working for me.
Good stuff Derek. Sounds like you have a keeper. You won't find a rifle builder that LIKES pre-fits. Yep, groups will always vary.
@@LittleCrowGunworks I'm looking at Carbon 6 barrels. Any experience with those? If I recall correctly they re McGowan blanks.
That's an unbelievable price for that ammo. It's $60 for 20 rounds at the stores near me.
@@Andrew-jm4tp gun broker auction. The seller must have had a palate of the stuff. Once the first few cases sold at higher bids I guess most people that wanted it stopped bidding
Where did you find it that cheap ?
Shot yesterday Hornady Precision Hunter 175 ELDX from my B14 Crest 22” barrel. Purchased a couple months ago at local Sportsman’s. Chronograph at 2830 fps. Very disappointing ammo.
My PH 175gr. ELD-X ammo lot averaged "only" 2910fps out of my 22" proof barrel, but shot 1/2" averaged over 60 rounds, and took a 7x7 bull elk at long range. Speed isn't everything. You need to develop confidence in knowing where your bullet is going to hit.
Having less velocity isn't the end of the world, but fix the number on the box at least...
Nice work 👍
Thanks for the support.
Keep up the great videos! i am learing a ton from the series so far. I have question for you. It seems like the common reason decide to reload is to increase velocity and accuracy over factory offerings. this seems to mean that you are increasing pressure via more powder or using double based powders that will give you the desired velocity or you start to see signs of over pressure. I see people who will take a 7 rem mag and "step on it" to get some really impressive velocities but are running high pressures to get there. Wouldn't it makes more sense to just step up to a larger cartridge IE 28 nosler and run a single based powder and gain not only safer pressures but the use of the more historically accurate powders while gaining velocity?
You hit the nail square Matthew. Many people take pride in professing how their cartridge and bullet setup is achieving some unrealistic velocity. The truth is they are WAY overpressure and horrendous brass life.
You are correct, it is way more logical to select a bigger cartridge and run it mild with a single base powder if peak precision is your goal.
Thanks for your support.
@@LittleCrowGunworks glad to hear I am understanding things correctly. I recently picked up a 28 nosler over a 7prc as I was hoping to run it at moderate pressures with a stable powder and get better accuracy and brass life than a souped up 7rem. I am new to this and still learning which is why I appreciate your videos. I live in Duluth Mn but if i ever get down south Id like check out the shop.
We'd like to see you if you are ever in the area.
N170 is your best bet. Thank you for the support.
Thanks again for all this info. I really enjoyed it and a great learning for me coming out of these videos. Really enjoyed it looking forward to the next one.
Glad you enjoyed it! Thank you for the support Terry.
I prefer the ceramic bubble level made by Accuracy 1st for my only none Leupold VX6-HD scope I have
To each their own. I'm sure it works great.
This was a great video, Tim. I wish I would not have bought my Bergara B14 squared crest in 7 PRC and went with your rifle instead. That’s pretty much the way I would have ordered it.
Thanks Ed! I'm glad you like it. Apparently, we have similar taste. If you get to the point where you want something built, let us know. We'll take care of you.
Curious as to how you chose N560 over 565 or 570. I'm no expert but would have probably started with slower burning VV powders. Not being critical, just want to know your thought process on that so I can learn something. Thanks.
Good question. For the 7 PRC, with N565 we needed to be at 59k PSI before 100% of the powder burns. That's a little high.
We probably could have tried it. Also at peak pressure, we would have been pretty compressed. But the max velocity would have gone up by maybe 100fps.
N570 is WAY too bulky and slow burning for that size case. To get to 65k PSI, you're at 107% fill ratio, which you can't actually fit that much in the case. And even if you could, only 97.2% of the powder burns...that's a complete no go. It's too slow.
I’m left eye dominant right handed. I’ve use both left and right bolt for hunting and shooting. While at the bench it’s fine using right bolt but in the field much prefer left bolt.
I shoot both hands for Prairie Dogs. But when shooting for peak precision, I always shoot right-handed. I shoot much better.
Check out Salmon River Solutions for their muzzle breaks. I love their Ti Pro 4 and Ti Pro 5’s.
I have the Lil Chub, and it's surprisingly effective for a little stubby.
I've seen their brakes. Haven't tested any though.
have you seen that issue alot of people are seeing with clickers after 3-4 firings on the cartridge i guess due to the back end of the chamber being slightly tight and is making that web area of the cartridge stick ?
So far, just seeing clickers on stuff that's near peak pressure. I'll let you guys know if I start getting clickers all the time.
The comments are turned off on the 22 bowler series. Was that on purpose? That series is pure gold.
@wildnorthadventures They shouldn't be turned off... I'll look into it. Thanks for the heads up. Glad you like the series!
@@LittleCrowGunworks I had a feeling it wasn’t you guys that shut them off. You don’t strike me as the kind of guy with soft feelings. lol.
So... half of the videos, the comments were turned off. Which I didn't do. Clearly, as all the videos have comments on them. Which would mean that I would have had to gone into half of the videos one by one and turn the comments off. Which I didn't even know how to do, until I figured it out just now.
Which means YT is trying to throttle our channel down.
Nice shooting. If you have N565, give that a try. I’m getting 3200 fps out of two Seekins PH2’s 7mm PRC with Hammer HHT 170 gr bullets. CCI 200 primers, virgin Peterson brass and .283 expander mandrel. I’m getting groups in the .2-.8 moa on both guns. I’m 90 rounds down the barrel of each.
I don't want to tell ya how to suck eggs, but that load is way overpressure.
@@LittleCrowGunworks not in my guns and that was at 100 degrees weather. I’ll find out what my wife’s mule deer and cousin’s cow elk say about the pressure they get from these loads lol
@@ArpexOfficial how many grains of 565 is that? I experienced the same type of velocity with my 300 PRC and 212 grain ELDX. The pressure signs are very minimal and if I back it off a grain I’m still well over 3000 with no pressure signs. it’s confusing to be honest. I hear the book numbers are conservative and then you’ll hear some people say velocity is a sign of pressure while others say look for pressure on your casings and rifle action. It’s all very confusing.
@@edstettin6799 with 70 gr on the two Seekins PH2’s and 68.8 gr on a Ruger American for 3060 fps on that one.
Did you try h1000
@@johntreese9375 No, it's too slow. Watch part 3 of the series.
Good stuff!
Thanks Austin!
“Real world numbers” 😉
Why guess? Call Hornady and verify, then give us an informed decision.
Hornady should publish the lot numbers with reduced velocity. They obviously know this information. Keeping us customers guessing is what makes me angry. I can forgive the powder shortage, but I can't forgive the bait and switch.
LOL, with the abundance of time I have?
Andrew is right. They should publish it on their website.
If you have time, I can give you the lot numbers we have and you can sit on hold?
I'm trying to make videos for you guys, not waste my time on Hornady's internal issues.
@@LittleCrowGunworks i’m not saying they shouldn’t advertise it on their site. What I am saying…and what you seem to be tap dancing around is the fact that you talk and spread gossip or rumors when you could’ve put in the time and ask them. If you don’t know for a fact and can verify it from the people who have that correct information your video that you work so hard on has invalid points and becomes essentially worthless.
I’m sorry but your just wrong on the group size. My iron sight mosin is post code accurate Every! Single! Time! no matter what day nigh rain shine it’s always the same.
Loving the series keep it up
Aren't all the Mosin's like that?
Gotta use corroded old surplus ammo though...
@@LittleCrowGunworks but all that time wasted on pesky load development can be put to cleaning the gun. See it all evens out.🤣
@McGuire’s ballistics it is the way for 7 PRC
Oh boy. I'm not too crazy about mom-and-pop monos. Too many bad experiences.
Don't let the stupid people get to you. Yup, we all know we have to change your powder.Charge from day to day according to weather. Correct i'm looking for a gun that will shoot half inch or under each in every day. Even.
Though on someday,s I can shoot well below 1/4 inch. welcome to the world a bench rest shooting.
Benchrest is a different game. I EXPECT you guys to stay under 1/4" all day at 100yds. But you're relative POI, ES, energy and terminal performance is irrelevant. You don't have ANY restrictions, compared to hunting rifle load development. Group size is your ONLY concern. That's quite a luxury.
I love gay people. Another awesome vid!
Say what now? LOL