7mm Showdown | Part 6 | 7 Rem Mag Load Development | Results & Rifle Specs | Little Crow Gunworks
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- In this video we look at our 7 Rem Mag Load Development Results and Rifle Specs and why we built it the way we did. We also spend time talking about a few common rifle myths, barrel break in and other contentious topics.
If you you're interested in a custom rifle built by Little Crow Gunworks, you can call us at 320-796-0530.
Man Im glad I just found you!!!! Im a 7mm mag guy!!!!!
I'm glad you found me too! LOL
Just wanted to say thank you for the time you're spending on this in-depth series. It's helping me with my load development for my .280AI tremendously!
I'm happy it's helping you. Spread the word.
Nothing but love for this series. So good.
Thanks Corey!
Still Loving this series. So much good information. Thanks for the time spent Tim.
Thanks for the consistent support, Michael. I'm going to keep chugging along here!
Love the 7mm magnum. Thanks for the education Tim. I'm learning more in this series then i did in years of hearing it put the same way, over and over.
We appreciate that. Folks can say what they want about this series. If nothing else... it's different.
I need to clock that Outfitter ammo in one of my 7PRCs, 160gr CX. It shoots really well in the one with the Proof barrel, Tikka action. Cloverleaf holes. I was pleased because it's less impressive in all of my other rifles. I put in for Utah late season cow elk. It's a contender for the trip
Love following along on this 7mm series. Thanks for all you do! My biggest take away is to look for the most consistent Avg POI in addition to SD and ES on load work up and don't get sucked in to a group that shot one time tiny but in a different POI, than the rest.
You got it. I will take consistent POI and low ES with a 3/4 MOA group over a small group with inconsistent POI ANY DAY!
Another great video Tim. I appreciate you sharing your thought process and reasoning with your load development. Im very interested to see how the .280 looks next week.
Thanks Steve. Fortunately or unfortunately for you guys, I could make each of these videos into a 4hr lecture and I restrain myself to an hour. LOL.
Enjoy the analytical data you compile and interpret for us in terms we are able to process for the most part. Thanks and thoroughly enjoy and learn.
My pleasure!
..."for the most part."
Ha, I'm trying my best to make it digestible for the average handloader.
Thanks for the great videos! This information will save me lots of time and money, and frustration on things that I thought I already knew. Im a lot lower on mount stupid than I thought I was.
HA. It seems like you're not alone on the Mt Stupid realization.
Awesome. Another video so soon. Thank you
I'm trying to get this cadence up. I have been testing so much and have a mountain of data. Now I have to get it out there.
@LittleCrowGunworks you're doing a great job and I am certain I am not the only one who appreciates it. 👏👏👏
Oh, you're not. Thanks Justin
Another informative video with excellent points. Anxious to see the rest and as a 7RM owner, surprised at the performance you are getting.
Thank you. Good surprised or bad surprised?
@@LittleCrowGunworks Good surprised. Got mine long ago and always felt it was very capable. It's nice to see how well it has stacked up to the newer cartridges that you are comparing it against. I am getting good velo from all the Federal rounds which I have tried including the Nosler 160 Partition and the 155 Terminal Ascent.
Just wanted to thank you for all your work . I have been using and putting all the info to work and have been having awesome results. Can’t think you enough for sharing. It’s going to suck when this series is over. Just have to watch them over👍
Thanks Jason! I'm glad it's working for you! Don't keep it a secret, make yourself heard as often as you can.
THAT is what will keep this and future video series coming.
Good stuff!
Thank you!
I have Tikka M695 action that needs a barrel.
I also have a Tikke M658 in 7 Mag. With light 120 gr bullets by Norma, it shoots very very tight!
Love the channel. Learning some good things!
We'll spin a barrel on it for ya. Send it our way! They are great actions!
Thanks for the support.
Have you considered K&P barrels? Ken, owner, made barrels for HS Precision for decades. His steel comes from Germany, he will make 4 or 6 groove, maybe more options, they are cut-rifled, insanely accurate, and each time I've ordered he tells me 10-12 weeks and so far, I've never waited that long and I order 4-8 at a time. Reasonably priced too.
We haven't used K&P barrels. I don't doubt anything you said here. There are so many great barrel companies out there now.
Many thanks. Very well done.
I have been pleased with my 162 ELDX and Retumbo and IMR4451 recipe sweet spots. That Federal Accent looks great for a factory option.
Did you try my testing method with the 162? How did it go?
@@LittleCrowGunworks I will have to check out your method. I do a common sense ladder test to watch for pressure and find velocities and consistent accuracy. Then I put 2 5 round groups to confirm accuracy and SD/ES. I have found most powders typically like to be near case volume to get the best accuracy. But not always. I will shoot them into jugs of water and also wet & dry paper to observe bullet performance.
Thank you for vids.
@guardianminifarm8005 that's not any different than my method. I just use one shot ladders so you can test a few powders without getting over invested in any of them.
But my top priority is relative point of impact, then smallest group, then highest velocity, then low es.
At 700 and in, ES is the least important metric out of literally anything.
great stuff
Thanks!
Watched every episode, outstanding content..... I really enjoy when your passion comes through and you start offending people.
LOL, finally somebody said it. I know some of you guys are at home chuckling to yourself when I get heated. But I'm happy someone admits they appreciate it.
Thank you for the loyal support.
Good info. Thanks
Thanks man.
I agree on barrels…most will shoot fairly good, esp for a hunting load. I have 199$ specials from er shaw that shoot clover leafs… i have a brux that will one hole, and i have shilens that shoot ragged single holes if i do my part. They all are pretty decent
That's right. If you make a bad barrel these days, you won't be around long.
ESPECIALLY have enjoyed your last two vids in the series..KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!😊
This is a great channel! The hr flew by! Seemed like 15 min. Looking forward to the other videos.
Thanks for coming along James!
Enjoying the series, and learning a lot. Could you give a little detail on how you attack the seating depth please? I'm interested in learning how you proceed when you have a promising load but know it could be better.
Hey Mark, I will probably get to it at some point in the series. But if you don't want to wait, you should watch part 7 of my 22 Nosler series. I cover it in that video.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Thank you, I will check out that video
@@LittleCrowGunworks Would you mind giving me your 3 powders for load development for my 257 Roberts? I'm planning to use the 120 gr nosler partition since I hunt in heavily wooded areas mostly.
I also need barrel length and what action it has. So I know what pressure limit we're working with.
Nice to see a normal looking type hunting rifle.
Valuable information!
I've been studying ballistics and reloading since a young teen, but I've not had near the experience as you testing loads and rifles at extended range, and it's interesting that you seem to be saying what I've been preaching.
I see people bragging about tiny groups, but point of impact changes make me laugh.
I've always said that cold barrel shot has to hit the same place every time, and as long as long as the rest of the group hits in the same area around it I don't care if it's near moa.
The value of the information here is impressive, and I will definitely be using your sight in methods in the future.
I've never seen a more simple method with thorough explanation than hear.
I also didn't know a flyer can often be explained by too hot of a load.
Thanks again for the great information.
I appreciate your support and abundance of positivity. Yeah, if POI changes, you need to include that in the aggregate group size. It's not shooting nearly as small as you think it is, if your POI is shifting.
Great! Liking the series! Will look into X-Caliber
Thanks man. There are a ton of great barrel companies out there. But X Calibers shoot great and helps us get the rifle in your hands, faster than everyone else.
🕵️♂️ What Powder(s) is Horneday Using in Their 7mm prc and 7mm Remington Magnum Ammunition That They Are Getting Such Slow Velocities Compared to What is Listed On The Box? 🤷♂️
Tough to say. I would bet the 7 Rem Mag is just loaded down to the SAAMI pressure, which is 61,000psi.
We're loading up to 65K and that's where we are seeing ejector marks with all 4 cartridges.
For the current 7 PRC 175 ELDX, I'm sure they took precision over velocity.
Have you guys ever tested to see if the cryo treatment helps anything?? I'd suspect that it might help keep groups together longer. Ex: your hunting rifle shoots 5 max before groups fall apart, with cryo, it shoots 8 before groups take a poop. I've read the research and listened to the opinions, my conclusion is that the current data is inconclusive. I got an 18" X-caliber 223 wylde shoots great and velocities are slightly faster than 20" 5.56, I got it cryoed. My favorite things about X-caliber are: their long list of options, price, sales, and lead times. They don't really have a reputation yet, good or bad, my sample size of 1 Puts 5 under an inch with multiple factory loads, and 1 factory offering does about 0.5". So I'm sticking with them until I have a good reason not to.
Yeah we really like what they have to offer, for all the reasons you mentioned.
I can't say if the cryo treatment helps or not. That's an expensive experiment to test 2 identical guns, with one cryo and one not.
@@LittleCrowGunworks yeah, if you ever decide to take that on, I'd go with thin-ish profile chambered for a hot rod barrel burner, 1 cryo, 1 no cryo as close to being made out of the same bar of steel as possible, same machines, same tools, same operator, ect. See if there is a significant difference in precision, rounds prior to group taking a poop, difference in POI shifts, barrel erosion and barrel life (hence why the hot rod laser beam, more faster, more cheaper). I realize it's expensive, I dang sure can't afford it, If your company gets to the point that you can afford to buy 2 barrels to burn and 1,500 to 2,000 rnds to burn em, you seem like the kind of guy that would enjoy the testing and analysis. lol I've got the time, if I had the money I'd do it and send you the data to nerd out on(I'm a data nerd too). Anyway, keep up the good work.
It would be an interesting experiment. Thanks for the support.
This is the video I've been waiting for.
DUN, DUN, DUUUUUUNNNN!
Another great video. BTW, I wouldn't worry about the length: there is a lot of content to digest. Thanks again for doing this.
Glad you enjoyed it! I'll keep lettin'er rip.
Nice video, I find it interesting that you guys go for the lighter bullets, we here in South Africa go for the heavier bullets. We busy working on a load for the 162gr ELD-X on my 7nn Rem Mag. Please keep posting video's like this.
Thanks for the positive feedback. I'm a little confused though, we are using a 160gr CX. That's the ONLY bullet we are handloading in this video series.
I have a Dilema. I will rebarell my old 1917 US Enfield to 35Whelen. BUT have to build a 7MM for grandson. 280AI , 7Rem Mag to 28 Nosler. 7PRC not in the picture. Got plenty 30-06 cases, 7RM available where ever, 7PRC about the same availabilty as the 28 Nosler
For better or worse Willy, we can't take on your old Enfield. They end up being a can of worms and we can't make out on it. I agree with your 7mm assessment.
Great series. I was kind of hoping you’d throat the 7 Rem mag to unlock more of its potential. I just started with the cartridge 2 months ago. So I had no place to start other than published data. I landed on Retumbo pushing 180 Berger Hybrids at 3045. I never expected that kind of velocity especially with 1/2” groups. Haven’t stretched out past 1079 yards. Trying for a mile. Really tough to find a place to get it done where I live. I’ll be looking more into Gordon’s software as well. Again thanks for what you’re doing here.
Enjoying the videos. Hornady does NOT show the Hornady 160 gr cc’d bullet or load data……Butt they DO have it listed with the 7prc. Thank you for the info.
I have used IMR 7828ssc with good success. N 560 was not even on my radar. I have it and will try it. 😊😊😊
Hey Bill, they don't list the 160gr CX for the 7 Rem Mag because that bullet requires a 1:8 twist AT MINIMUM. A 1:7.5 or even 1:7 twist would be better.
@@LittleCrowGunworks thanks for your reply
Thank you Tim. I have a Ruger M77 Hawkeye with a 22" barrel.
Same powders as the .280AI
N550, H4350 & N555
You could use N150 as well but it's a little fast for that cartridge. All of the 4831 class powders are too slow.
Especially if you are loading to fit in a short action magazine and running the wimpy +P pressures. With a modern gun like that, you can go higher.
I built my Roberts on a Remington 700 long action. So, my loaded rounds are over 3" long and I run over 60K PSI with No issues. I'm about 100fps under 25-06 velocities. (I have a 7" twist 28" barrel)
@@LittleCrowGunworksI really appreciate the information. Thank you for taking the time to help me out.
Good stuff again. I really hope you have the time and energy to attack other calibers in the future. I want to keep the likes and comments rolling. Love this “real world” rifle build. Content is great once again.
Finished it up…… the process is extremely sound. Very informative. Thanks again!
We appreciate the loyal support. There will be more video series and cartridges in the future.
Give it a try. It can be an easy button if you're methods and testing practices are sound.
If you are concerned about point of aim/impact why not shoot a single 9 shot composite? Seems like that would be simpler and give an easier insight into the cone of dispersion. I hope federal provides component 170gr terminal accents sometime, seems like the perfect hunting bullet
If that's all I was after and all groups were shot on the same day, that is an option. I'm gathering 3 shot group sizes for the handloads and the factory ammo, so I want that testing criteria to be the same.
And a 3 shot group resonates with the most people. And if you need more than 3 shots, you didn't get the animal anyways, so we won't be shooting more than 3 shots per group.
there are basicaly 3/4 modern 7mm rifle build options. And a few classics. The rave is about the 7PRC. Practicaly a shorter fater 7RM. The 7PRC has the same performace as the 7RM in a Std Long 3.34" action. I would still use the 7RM in a 3.8" Magnum action if I wanted to seat out long bullets in the 7RM. 280AI about 100fps under the 7RM . But still needs a 3.8"Mag action to seat out longer bullets. Sweetspot for 7MM; 160-168 grns. If you go to 195 Grns in the 7MM it's the same as going to 250 Grns in the 30 Cal. What For?? Target Yes, Hunting NO
Hey Willy! All of these cartridges have something to offer. I would say the 7 Rem Mag offers a legitimate 80 to 110fps over the 7 PRC and 200fps over the 280AI when treated the same. They all have value regardless of the peak velocity.
Exactly. A 195gr bullet offers practically nothing until you're past 1000 yards.
I know you`re making a video and time is importent, but i`ve found 15 seconds wait on a hang fire is worth it.
Good vids, keep them coming..
Thanks Clayton, I don't disagree. The pinfall was so subtle, I didn't realize what had happened until I ejected the round. I thought I safety pulled, but I heard a very faint "ting" sound and didn't know what it was.
3:45 I will say the Federal sounded meaner, just slightly...they both sounded like the devil, but I presume the Hornady yet slower, hits harder.
With a brake, everything sounds like the devil. Both bullets hit extremely hard. The TA's don't usually exit elk though. Mushroom too much.
This is exactly why I handload.
I know exactly what is inside the case, and precision shooting doesn't agree with factory ammunition, and I ain't kidding either!
As evidence by the factory ammo performance and misfire?
@@LittleCrowGunworks and the maximum deviation between shots.
This series has been super helpful for some of my load development.
Do you find that N565 is too slow generally for the 7 Rem Mag or is there a place for it?
Thanks again for doing this series!
I'm glad my process is helping. No, N565 is great for the 7 Mag in a 26" barrel if you intend to lean on it. But don't expect more velocity than 7828, 4831 or N560 because you probably won't get it. I didn't in my testing.
Boy you know it when that baby goes off..and everybody within 11 square miles..lol. Dude you got me itchin to start addin goodies to my ol 700 7mag. 1st rifle dad bought me round 99 and been a fan of 7mm ever since. I’ve got Winchester supremes ve had over 20yrs where it on,y takes 1 and absolutely destroys deer lol.. those noslers in em work as good as any bullet I’ve ever landed on game. Ballistic silvertips. Have 155gr terminal accent over 2yrs and havnt fired a 1…lol $3.75rd.👊🏻
I was so excited to try and get the software you've been using for this series... especially the Applied Ballistics. Unfortunately, I am a Mac user and they don't work on Mac. Do you know if I could pick up a cheap tablet to use this software? Any experience with it running on a Droid platform? ... or is it Windows running on a leptop only?
What is the twist rate of the barrel?
He told twist rate in starting video.
@@JeffBush-sw8yk he stated that is had an appropriate twist, ?? 1=8 ???? did not say!
I didn't say specifically. This barrel is actually 7.5" Twist.
The other rifles are 8" twist. Which is tight enough for the 160gr CX.
The 7.5" twist doesn't offer a performance advantage. It just makes the bullet a little more stable. It's a good idea if you might use it in very cold temps and low altitude. As temperature drops, so does stability.
I watch too many videos I thought they were all 8 twists. It’s very good video series I’m learning lots.
I did say in the very first video that they would all be 8" twist barrels. But that was before we decided to show some variety to the rifle builds.
In part 1 of this series you mentioned seating the bullet out to get extra performance. What C.O.L. are you using with your hand loads in the 7mm rem mag with the 160 cx?
Hey Neal, we're not sharing that information publicly.
Test for YOUR GUN!!!!
Do you find any validity to copper bullets having a larger grouping when shot after jacketed bullet? I've heard folks just couldn't get the solid copper to group when shot after jacketed rounds unless the barrel was completely cleaned back to bare steel. Thank you
Wow, never heard that before. I shot all these round robin style... shooting copper and jacketed bullets all in one session and in random order without cleaning anything.
@@LittleCrowGunworks This "phenomenon" comes from a couple of internet gun sources, Ron Spomer and Jim Hamer of Backfire. It kind of sounds reasonable. So I clean down to bare metal these days if im going to shoot my Barnes bullets after a lead core bullet. figured it cant hurt
Can you give us your opinion on what seating depth to start at?
Thats normal for hornady. I find alot of their stuff is below par.
I do wish the 7 Mag pulled away from the prc......
It did a little... It's not over yet...
X-Caliber carbon fiber prefit or proof prefit carbon fiber? Which is better?
Well, it's relative. I think they both have their pluses and minuses. The Proofs are more money, wrapped carbon fiber, cut rifled barrels and smaller profile/lighter. The X-Calibers are less money, sleeved carbon, button rifled and larger profiles/stiffer/heavier.
You have to pick what's right for you. They're both going to shoot good.
👍
Thanks Robert!
Hey Boss,
Great video. I fact, I’ve been considering purchasing a 28 Nosler for the last several months but…I recently started leaning back to the 7 Mag. Reason being, availability of factory loads.
That said, I haven’t started reloading but will be in the future. That said, I’m considering a 1:8.75 twist so that I can effectively push 175 gr. projectiles.
Question, given you clearly know more about this than I know…am I on the right path with the twist rate? And, what is the twist rate of the rifle you were shooting?
Hey man, I would stick with the 7 Rem Mag if you're not a handloader. The 28 Nosler factory ammo price and lack of availability should be a consideration for you. If you're going to build a gun, I would use 7.5" twist. With 8" twist being the minimum. That 8.75" twist isn't ideal for anything hunting related.
@@LittleCrowGunworks…Awesome, thank you for the guidance and info.
My intention is to be reloading by the first of the year. That said, I’m really diggin’ the performance of the 28 Nosler but…I’m seeing that the 7 Mag has the ability to perform at a higher level.
The 7 Mag it is…I cannot believe I sold mine back in 2012 just to buy/build a hot-rod Mag.
I really appreciate the feedback and the series has been exceptional!
@@LittleCrowGunworks…I was looking at barrels…a little more complicated than I expected. I had no idea that there were so many groove patterns. I’m thinking a six groove or, am I missing the boat.
Before you answer, I get you are a gun builder and that this question might be off the table. However, if you wouldn’t mind a little guidance, I would appreciate it.
Actually…a 5 groove
@@BZE_Fishin If we build the rifle for you, the consulting is free. Give us a call.
I stopped buying hornady ammo because I felt they were overpriced and full of shit. Looks like I was right
They do plenty of good things but I'm not real impressed with their velocity discrepancies.
So the federal ammo has a misfire, the hornady runs a little slow and the problem is with hornady, makes sense.
Now now. Every ammo manufacturer loads misfires. Not every ammo manufacturer is dishonest about their velocities. That was my point.
If you don't mind, what vihtavuori or hodgden powder would you recommend to 6.5prc type cartridges to start with?
N160, N555, H4831SC
@@LittleCrowGunworks Thanks!
First!
beat me to it
3. Austria
That's saying something with this video... over 3K views in the first 10hrs.
@@LittleCrowGunworks these videos are awesome 😎…I’m a big 7mm fan so these have been great 👍🏻
Thanks man!
Hornady worst overpriced option
Cry more
Ammo cost should be your LAST concern when we're talking about hunting ammo. Ammo cost is a drop in the bucket compared to all the other expenses associated with the hunt.
Hey !!! This email just in from Hornady about their 190 grain CX for .308. "This bullet is going to require a 1-8 twist to stabilize the bullet. So for every chambering that is running this as a standard twist rate we would be updating this bullet into that data. Thanks
Hornady/SnapSafe Tech Team"
We bought hundreds of these bullets in the last couple of weeks for our Oryx and Elk hunts this Fall with 300 Win Mag. Now what? Where's our money now? Not cheap bullets, now utterly useless. NOWHERE on the Internet does it say anything but normal 1:10 twist. Last Thursday I was printing out their load data for this 190 grain CX for 300 Win Mag. My $$ iPhone app showed the same. Now, poof, the 190 grain is gone! So is our hundreds of dollars we spent on their CX bullets. With just a sudden cold email response from Hornady.
@JohnDavidHays
I NEVER go by the manufacturer recommended twist rate. I use the Miller formula. Berger has a stability calculator on their website. You need to know the projectile length and your barrel twist and environmentals. The calculator does the rest.
I use sea level and 0 degrees as a baseline. Under those conditions, I want 1.6 stability factor at a minimum. I typically want as tight of a twist as I can possibly get, for everything but 100 and 200yd benchrest.
Sorry you got snookered. Typically mono's need/want faster than standard twist rates.
I error on the side of over twisting than under twisting.
@@LittleCrowGunworks Thank you
Good stuff!
Thanks Jack! See ya on the next one.