Are We in the End Times? Part 1: How We Interpret Revelation Matters | Guest: Jeff Durbin | Ep 283
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2020
- With the chaos ensuing around us during the COVID-19 age, many Christians are asking the question, "Are we in the end times?" Pastor Jeff Durbin joins us to introduce two different ways of interpreting the end of the age as described in the book of Revelation: premillennialism and postmillennialism. In this two-part series, we explore the depths of why eschatology matters.
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Are We in the End Times? Part 1: How We Interpret Revelation Matters | Guest: Jeff Durbin | Ep 283
I’ve studied Revelation and eschatology in general for years. I used to think it was so important to know that a pre-trib rapture view was the correct view and that there would certainly be a millennium after the tribulation. But now I think it’s less important to be sure of when all these things happen. It’s more important to just know Jesus and share Him, knowing He keeps His promises and will come again someday.
The Second Coming of Christ is prophesied in the Bible far more than His First Coming. The Millennial Kingdom is a dominant theme in the OT. The apostle Paul speaks of the Second Coming 80 times in his 13 epistles.
@@carolberubee 2nd coming is there, but Millennial Kingdom...no. The only place you are able to point to anything even close is Revelation. And that book is written in the apocalyptic style, which is largely symbolic.
@@retrograd332 Yeah, all these passages are about the Millennial Kingdom (and this isn't an exhaustive list).
Exodus 19:5-8; 2 Samuel 7:12-16; Psalm 2, 8, 22:27-31, 48, 68:21-35, 69:35-36, 72, 89, 93, 94, 95; Isaiah 1:25-2:5, 4, 11, 12, 24:23, 26, 27:12-13, 30:23-33, 32, 35, 40:10-11, 44:3, 51:11, 55:11-13, 60, 61:4-11, 62, 65:18-25; Jeremiah 3:14-18, 23:1-8, 24:4-7, 31, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 11:17-21, 17:22-24, chapters 40-48; Daniel 7:13-14 & 26-27; Hosea 2:14-22, 6:1-4, 12:9, 13:14; Joel 3:17-21; Amos 9:11-15; Obadiah 1:17-21; Micah 5:4-14, 7:12-20; Habakkuk 2:14; Zephaniah 3:9-20; Haggai 2:6-9; Zechariah 1:16-17, 3:8-10, 8:4-8 & 20-23, 9:10-17, 10:6-12, 14:8-11 & 16-21
@@retrograd332 The Revelation is not in the apocalyptic genre. It is prophetic and has symbolism, but that does not automatically place it in the apocalyptic genre. The Revelation does not comport with many aspects of the apocalyptic genre, not least of which is that The Revelation very often interprets itself and when it doesn't, it points to the OT for its meaning.
"It’s more important to just know Jesus and share Him." Yet, every time He opens His mouth about His Second Coming, you dismiss what He has said, or think that what He has said isn't very important? How can you know Him and share Him if you don't care about a significant portion of His truth?
One day, when we stand before the Lord in glorified bodies, we'll look at each other and say, So that's what He meant!
Proper Exegesis will save you that 😆
Then we all facepalm 🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️ haha. And two people in the back will be like I KNEW IT!!!
So your saved it was that easy just say the words will all be there? I don't think so.
@@jeffevans3193 Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Lots more scripture to back that also
@@clearascrystal4960 The christians in Jerusalem did not just believe; they acted on the word, for as soon as they saw the romans surrounding the city, as Jesus had foretold, they fled and saved their lives.
Jeff is absolutely right. I was a Pre Trib/ Pre mil dispensationalist who had this "what's the point?" attitude. It was only recently that I started feeling convicted on this view because it got to the point where I was no longer feeling joy when I would serve in my local church and other things. I was so full of anxiety over loved ones who still weren't saved no matter how much I was sharing Jesus with them. Just beginning to believe they would be left behind to suffer because it felt like time was running out. PRAISE GOD for the conviction of feeling like maybe I was missing something. Sure enough, just like Jeff did, I abandoned the system I once believed as truth and dove back into the Scriptures and just read line by line, considering the audience.... Truly life changing. I walk differently in my faith now! I can finally live as a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven truly. Making a difference here in this world. Pre trip/ Pre Mil dispensationalism can act as such a BONDAGE for so many New Believers. I am so grateful for this interview. I will be sharing it A LOT. 🙏✝️💛
I am promillennial--whenever the millennium comes, and whatever form it takes, I am for it!
So many views and many vaild points... Im kinda in the same era.
That would make you both "pan-" AND "pro-mil": being for whatever pans out!
Some people are of that same mind regarding salvation. Each to his own way, they say.
In Jeff Durbin's example of Noah, that the unbelievers were swept away, that they were taken away and Noah and his family, the believers, were left behind on earth. But can't you also interpret it where the unbelievers were left behind for judgement by the flood and Noah and his family were taken away in the ark?
Steve Kwong Absolutely right. It’s an odd way to frame the analogy. Furthermore, there are many examples of the righteous being removed from judgment. I consider Noah an example of that, plus one must consider Enoch, who prophesied about God’s wrath and was literally taken (the world’s first rapture), as well as God’s allowance for Methuselah to pass away at 969 years old just before the flood; then there’s the matter of Lot and the judgment of Sodom... Some consistency is in order.
Yes, this is how I read it.
you can, but letting the text explain itself, the believers were still technically left behind, meaning they stayed here on earth & the unbelievers were swept away. like Jesus says, one will be left, the other taken away.
_hello_ Paradise You can use virtually any story in Scripture to make a case for something. This is why analogies are bad basis for doctrine.
Scott Grimm well who’s to say your understanding of Matthew 24 specifically is correct & that i’m incorrect? I agree w/you that yes you can use scripture to make a case for anything but that doesnt make the case you made in regards to scripture right or correct.
For example, Mormons believe that they will become gods & they use scripture to back that up.
The book of Isaiah says otherwise w/God saying in in Chapter 43:10
“Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.”
so like i said yes you can use scripture to make a case for anything but that doesn’t make it true
Good interview. I side with Allie here. Yes things will get worse but my goal as a believer is to lead others to Christ before its too late.
Hey good to see you here, Kevin! Hope all is well. :)
@@jessicaottis6127 Same with you! God bless sister, miss your vids.
Second Coming Visions in Revelation:
Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.
He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.
The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.
The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.
He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and the greatest earthquake in history is found in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial.
He comes on a horse in chapter 19.
He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".
ruclips.net/video/puk7HOeSYRI/видео.html
That's not the Biblical stand point though.
_"whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.”_ (Mar 8.35)
_"the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men WHO SUPPRESS THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS”_ (Rom 1.18)
I wonder if suppressing the truth of Christian tribulations and mocking it or holding it in unrighteousness counts? In fact, I believe suppressing this truth actually contributes to it happening. Christian tribulations have been happening since the days of Christ and the apostles and it is going to get worse and already is, pretending it's not going to happen when it has, off and on, for almost 2000 years is absurd and worse than holocaust denial by leaps and bounds. [NOTE: youtube algorithms quickly deleted my post using the word ‘holocaust’ even when misspelled beyond recognition (ex. h..0..ll.0 c..au.5+) except when used in a thread like this - wow, and yet suppression of the ongoing slaughter of Christians since Christ’s time is perfectly kosher! Surprise surprise! Satan’s kingdom in effect perfectly illustrated!]
Believers will (and DO) experience tribulations from Satan's children as opposed to God's WRATH which is not for believers (1Th 1.10; 5.9). Yeshua Jesus and the apostles all went through tribulations and were nearly all martyred as witnesses of the Truth --(the Greek term 'martyr' means witness) that's why we have a long tradition of martyrdom in Christianity which is still happening in places like China, the mid-east and Africa, and even the West. The New Testament and Eusebius' History are good places to start for more information.
John opens the book of Revelation written to 7 Gentile congregations saying he is a fellow-partaker of the tribulation (Rev 1.9) and the innumerable multitude of souls from every nation, tongue, tribe, etc seen in heaven came out of great tribulation (Rev 7.9,14), some beheaded (Rev 20.4), and waiting for Christ to return to deliver vengeance (Rev 6.9-11) which occurs with His coming when believers are then resurrected (the soul returns to the regenerated physical body glorified) on the last trumpet blast, Rosh Hashanah the New Year on the Hebrew calendar, and join Him in the cloud of glory. (1Th 4.16-7)
Satan is setting up pretribbers for great disappointment, likely followed by disillusionment and loss of faith, perhaps even a gnashing of teeth.
"This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus" (2The 1.5-8)
This is during the reign of the false messiah, the Lawless one, who with the false prophet posing as Elijah will re-enforce the law of Moses which came with spiritually sealing the name/mark of the Lord upon the congregation as in the Torah in the Aaronic Benediction in defiance of the new covenant law of faith ratified in the blood of the new and better covenant, hence 1Tim 1.9, the law is for the lawless
Wait what!? Voddie Baucham and Jeff Durbin back to back!? 😱😱☺️
Right?! She’s got connections
Wait what!? Another Christian conservative A's fan? Awesome!
She'll be reformed in no time.
I was just going to comment this!!!!
Nicholas Meyer we are few and proud 👊🏼
John Macarthur taking the stand he is with his church at 81 is amazing!
Yes, I would much prefer hearing what John MacArthur's take is on if we are at the end of end times.
@@leondedelmare1107 MacArthur believes in a pre tribulation rapture. He has many sermons here on RUclips about the end times, rapture, anti Christ and book of Revelation. I highly recommend listening to them. He's one of the finest teachers we have today.
@@festushaggen2563 did he not tell ppl taking the mark was fine?
@@erinjay8431 I've heard many of his sermons about Revelation and the end times and have never heard that. I'd be shocked if he did because he teaches that the church won't be here for that time. The only believers that will be here then are those who weren't saved before the rapture and the Great Tribulation begins but were saved during that time. Those believers will be martyred for not taking the mark and bowing to the Anti-Christ.
@@festushaggen2563 Yes. Agree. Also, have you heard Jack Hibbs, Calvary Chapel Chino Hills, or Amir Tsfalti, Behold Israel? Both really excellent teachers. And JD Farag of CC Hawaii. All in RUclips. There is a movie out called "Before The Wrath" that goes into details of the parallels between the Jewish wedding and the Rapture. Very interesting.
Allie is on a role!! Baucham and now Durbin! Thank you. Great stuff. So good to see more and more people spreading the true gospel.
Be prepared in season and out of season. I enjoyed hearing both perspectives. It has been a (good) debate for many years and there wonderful believers on both sides of this question. Ultimately it comes down to remaining faithful and being prepared for either. God has us in His hands and has complete control. Just be ready.
Indeed and Amen
I’m yet to meet a pre tribber who is sitting on the couch just waiting. All I can see is the urgency now to try and reach as many as possible before its too late. I find that those who aren’t looking for Christ’s return are less urgent. I’m not saying they don’t preach the gospel but there’s no urgency. If that makes me an escapist, so be it. I’m looking for Christ, not the antichrist. I’m looking for the upper taker not the undertaker!
I love Jeff’s abortion ministry and his witness to Mormons. I’ve not watched his sermons as I don’t agree with his eschatology.
@Chrissie Restall Amen. I take issue with that analogy. Pre tribbers are more ready and watchful because we believe the Lord could come at any time like in the parable of the 10 virgins. We can’t afford to slack off or backslide in sin. No teaching I’ve ever heard says we can give up now because it’s gonna get worse. The Bible certainly doesn’t say that either. We’re also not appointed to wrath and that’s exactly what the great tribulation is. God’s wrath on a sinful world. Like Lot or Noah before Gods wrath came down, we’ll be delivered before.
Trucker_Pete absolutely & amen to that! I think we are very very close now too with everything that’s going on in the world... I thought we had 5, maybe 10 years left but I now think it could be much sooner! The beginnings of the new world order and antichrist beast system is starting to rear its head so it’s literally at any moment!! All I can say is Maranatha!! 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
New Start Now where in the bible does it say that?
@New Start Now The persecuted believers spoken of during the Great Tribulation are those who've been saved during the Great Tribulation. That's what the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses are there for. The church now will be raptured before that.
Jesus is king of kings and Lord of Lords praise God praying for everyone everyday God bless you all 🙏
I was raised just like Jeff and asked my SS teacher in 4th grade, "how many 2nd comings are there?" O never got a good answer and it made me study. Holy Spirit led me to this truth 8 years ago. The Bible completely opened up and makes so much more sense! God is SO good!
I wonder if you've thought about how many First Comings there were. What I mean is, He was born, received angelic exaltation and kingly gifts, and then "disappeared" (for lack of a better word) until 30 years later when He began His public ministry. Why would it be so unusual for Him to have a "two-part" Second Coming? Part one is a pre-trib snatching away of His Church as He comes on the clouds; part two is 7 years later when He comes with His saints to the earth to rule and reign.
Carol Berubee Agree! To me, there’s too many passages of scripture showing Christ’s second coming is a period of time. Like His first coming, it has a beginning and an end.
He meets the church (SAVED) in the clouds, He does not come as in a COMING (so to speak)… is this what you meant?
I could hear Jeff talk #datpostmill all day! Love it! 🙌 I grew up premill dispensational! The Lord opened my eyes to postmillennialism! Praise God!
I think you are wrong ( respectfully),God always saved his childrens before tribulations! Like Noah, like lot etc.
@@anonyme3123He did, Jesus told them to flee to the mountains to escape the coming wrath. When the armies surround the city.
Allie thanks for having this guy he's great ,
and by great, I mean humble and by Humble,
I mean great!
Interesting discussion though I dont really care about the different views on eschatology. All I care about and my utmost prayer is to be faithful to my Lord God and Savior and wanting and longing to hear Him say to me "well done, thou good and faithful servant.....enter ye thou into the joy of thy Lord!❤❤😇😍
Amen
Just spent the past year teaching Revelation in the year prior to the “lockdown.” Boy was I glad we decided to tread water in the deep end of the pool. So much hope!
Much respect for Jeff, but no well-versed dispensational pretribulationist would have offered Matthew 24 as THE prooftext for the church's removal from the earth before the tribulation. He would have been on shaky ground from the start. More than anything, dispensationalists arrive at a pretrib position because of the clear distinction between Israel and the church and an understanding of the purpose of the tribulation, which is to bring Israel back under the authority of her Messiah. Without recognizing that discontinuity, one's eschatology, and in fact, one's overall biblical hermeneutic, will be out of whack. Also, it's a sad generalization to assume pretribbers are less "salty" or just want to "get out of here." If anything, the imminent coming of Jesus' return for His saints adds urgency to our mission. It's possible to run hard after the Great Commission and still say, "Come Lord Jesus!" God bless.
Scott Grimm Exactly.......Daniel’s 70th. Week. Reference to Chapter 9 of Daniel specifically.
Home on the Ranger Absolutely. A prophecy “for your people and your holy city.” Clearly about Israel.
My thoughts exactly!
Respectfully, the reason people arrive at a dispensational pretribulation view is because of the presuppositions that there still remains a distinction between Jews and Gentiles, when the Apostle Paul clearly teaches repetitively that there is not, and also that the events mentioned with the great tribulation passages have not already happened, when in fact they have, which is why you don't see the church explicitly mentioned in those texts. The audience was the ethnic Jewish community, then God's covenant people but not anymore, because a New Covenant was ushered in with the ministry of Jesus Jesus Christ. Now those who have faith in him, Jew or Gentile are one man / people group who are given promises as their inheritance.
18) As surely as God is faithful, our word to you does not waver between “Yes” and “No.” 19) For Jesus Christ, the Son of God, does not waver between “Yes” and “No.” He is the one whom Silas,f Timothy, and I preached to you, and as God’s ultimate “Yes,” he always does what he says. 20) For all of God’s promises have been fulfilled in Christ with a resounding “Yes!” And through Christ, our “Amen” (which means “Yes”) ascends to God for his glory. - 2 Corinthians 1:18-20
12) Jew and Gentilef are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13) For “Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved.” - Romans 10:12-13
24) Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25) And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.
26) For you are all childrenm of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27) And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes. 28) There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29) And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true childrenp of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you. - Galatians 3:26-29
1) When I think of all this, I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ Jesus for the benefit of you Gentiles . . . 2) assuming, by the way, that you know God gave me the special responsibility of extending his grace to you Gentiles. 3) As I briefly wrote earlier, God himself revealed his mysterious plan to me. 4) As you read what I have written, you will understand my insight into this plan regarding Christ. 5) God did not reveal it to previous generations, but now by his Spirit he has revealed it to his holy apostles and prophets. 6) And this is God’s plan: Both Gentiles and Jews who believe the Good News share equally in the riches inherited by God’s children. Both are part of the same body, and both enjoy the promise of blessings because they belong to Christ Jesus. 7) By God’s grace and mighty power, I have been given the privilege of serving him by spreading this Good News. - Ephesians 3:1-7
Phillip I. Johnson With all due respect, have you read Romans 11?
I hope Jeff Durbin had a positive effect on her. I did appreciate her having him on the show. Great show!
I'm reading God's Truth, and trying to do so without any prejudices at all. I do not embrace any of the "isms" at all, and I certainly don't care when people say that, to believe one "ism", you need to believe that a certain event will take place, but to believe another, you need to believe it will not. Rapture and Israel are examples. These ways of seeing seem to create checkmate situations ; mutual exclusiveness. We have a bloke like Chuck Missler - an excellent Bible scholar - telling us that the Bible should be taken literally, and that therefore prophecies concerning "Israel" refer to the country of the same name founded in 1948, and sometimes it's hard to disagree. We have certain preterists telling us the Bible should be taken literally, and that means everything was fulfilled at AD 70. We have people who believe both. We have people who believe Israel is now ONLY spiritual, not a place on the map.
Anyway, what I do find, however, is that "preterists" like Jeff seem to depress me and vex the spirit. Whenever they claim that much of the prophecy has been fulfilled, there seems something wrong; a kind of disingenuous, deceptive, shrugging optimism, sort of like whistling in the dark and expecting everyone else to do the same. For example, why should Jeff despair because people wouldn't want to have kids during this time in history? What if there was a Jeff Durbin in the Soviet Union in 1918, Germany in 1933, Cambodia in 1976? If people had listened to that undertone of "don't worry, Jesus wins, the kingdom is here. Just marry and give in marriage. have children" logic, they'd have seen their children murdered before their eyes. It's understandable that people would want to avoid that situation. Today, we seem to be on the verge of a situation that is much worse. This time it will be worldwide. It is what many believers in end-time prophecy might call an apocalyptic time. It certainly seems that we're back at Babel. It certainly seems that history is culminating in something. The "calm the farm" approach of people like Jeff SEEMS utterly misplaced. But I might be wrong. maybe I don't know enough yet. However, I'll proceed...
People with Jeff's view do seem to politicise events and claim some political act is a manifestation of God's will being carried out in His kingdom, which is here, now. Well, since abortion, free sex, transgenderism, same-sex marriage, all manner of social chaos and (coming to a town near you) paedophilia, etc., have practically been legislated INTO existence, or made possible via pharmaceuticals and media, I find it hard to subscribe to that view. There's just something huge missing in this logic. But I might be wrong. I need to keep reading the Scriptures until God emerges for me.
What I do seem to see in Scriptures so far are dualities all over the place. A sentence can begin by talking to the people of the time, and by the time it has ended, it's clearly talking "through" that subject to another time. A sentence can begin by speaking of a physical event, but it turns out it was talking about a spiritual one all along. This was one of Jesus' most-used methods. There are many, many examples of this in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and in Jesus' utterances. Given the amazing complexity of the Bible for those who want to keep digging (salvation doesn't depend on it though), I'd suggest that the events of AD 70 were both relevant to those at the time, but also a "type" of the world as it will become. After all, I'm already discovering that this would be entirely in keeping with the way Scripture is written.
I respect Jeff's scholarship and faithfulness, as I do Missler's, McArthur's and those great apologists like John Lennox and Ravi Zacharias. I disagree with most of them one one point or another, based on what God's world is revealing to me, but I realise I might be wrong. With people who hold Jeff's view, though, I can't get over this spiritual disquiet. For now, anyway.
Love and blessings to everyone.
That's because you are led by the Spirit and don't follow man-made philosophy constructed by men such as Durbin and James White.
Excellent post! Really summed up my experience as well. Thanks for your clarity of thought.
I agree. It's like Jeff gets some of what the Bible is saying but the 'spiritual' aspect is missing in his teachings. His view on Noah is wrong with simple scipture of 1 Thessalonians 4. More specifically 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Allie, interview Jack Hibbs on this subject.
Yes!!
I second :)
Always best commentary when she's wearing the denim jacket!
Excellent interview. I loved the way you asked the questions from the Pre-Millennial side which then allowed for more clarity and understanding from the Post-Millennial side to be stated. Obviously, there could be more said but much was given to chew on here and I hope viewers understand that. My favorite phrase that came out of this interview was "Eschatology Matters". It really does, its part of the Christian worldview no matter where one sides on this subject. The conclusions we come to based off the side we come to agree with will have implications and will effect how we live today.
I have been for years asking for Jeff Durbin to be interviewed...thanks Allie for being the first!
Great video! Nearly 50 years ago, while reading Scofield's notes in my KJV, it was striking that he had reversed who was 'taken' and who was 'left'... and so my journey of End Time events helped me see that what Jesus stresses (Luke 13:24) really matters.
Jesus explains it Himself:
'The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity...Then shall the righteous shine forth...' (Matt.13:41-43).
Two separate events. Rapture and the Second Coming. I found a great deal of solid teaching on this from Dr. Andy Woods. It is easy to get confused as I did but he makes it very clear. I pray Jeff Durbin speak to him about it too. Great peace is found in knowing we are like Noah and his family and will kept from God’s wrath.
@@TheRoger1205
One event as Jn.11:24 reveals.
Jesus would have corrected Martha, had she been wrong.
The last day, resurrection and rapture, are all 'together' (1Thes.4:17).
All saints day! Those asleep in Christ, and those changed, are 'caught up together' (#260 in Strong's: at the "same" time).
Look at all of the "last day" texts and also the passages that mention resurrection. There's just ONE day, in which BOTH the just and unjust are raised and judged. Now you just need to figure out what "the last day" means, and when the last day is.
John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
And notice how many days of resurrection this says there are: Just one:
Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
There is *a day* of resurrection, which is *at the last day* -- Now... the last day of WHAT? Whatever it is, the rapture theory fails.
Personally, I believe "the last day" was at AD70, which was the final day of the old covenant. For those without a focus on the covenants, this will be hard (or impossible) to understand, but the better you understand what God's word says about the covenants, the more sense it makes. And there are no logical contradictions to deal with as in the many Premillennialist views.
@@jeremiah5319
The year 70 AD was not the resurrection referred to in Jn.11:24 and 1Thes.4:17, 5:4.
2Pet.3:10-12 describes it vividly. 2Tim.2:18 shows that the resurrection is not 'past already'...but it is approaching (Rom.13:11).
@@jeremiah5319
I do believe that the Old Covenant ended when God sent Rome to destroy the temple, and its sacrificial system ('the works of the law'), and that Christ is risen and at 'the right hand of the Majesty on high' and reigning in His people (Heb.1:3). Every one has a 'last day,' before 'the Last Day' under the sun, when men 'come forth' to Life, or damnation (Jn.5:29). Why do you think it all happened in 70 AD??
Thank you Allie and Jeff for doing this episode! It is much needed in a time like today. Gives us even more of a push/desire to really understand eschatology!
I just ordered the book Revelation: Four Views: A Parallel Commentary by Steve Gregg. I am excited to have the four most popular eschatological views laid out side by side with scripture passages to study and become more knowledgeable on the arguments for them all.
Also recommended for readers:
Last Days Madness (Gary DeMar)
The Last Days According to Jesus (R.C. Sproul)
Instead of the Demar book that was recommended, I would recommend 2 books: Before Jerusalem Fell by Kenneth Gentry and Revelation Made Easy by Kenneth Gentry. Other recommended authors on this subject are Marcellus Kik, Greg Bahnsen, David Chilton, Keith Mathison.
I respect Jeff but I feel the motivator is the urgency we feel to win others to Christ. I think NOW is the time for us to be the salt and light to win as many as possible to Christ. Love the show Allie!
Born and raised Catholic and what he is saying is in keeping with the way I was raised to believe.
That's not good
Exactly Tara.
I know we have been living in the last days not by guessing which all here are doing but by studying God's prophetic timeline.
Jeff is one of my favorite pastors. Thanks for having him on.
I'm so glad that I was not aware of any of these different ideas when I first read the book of Revelations. I was able to read it in a straightforward mannerbecause I didn't have preconceived answers that had been fed to me in advance. My husband had grown up with the Bible and did not have this advantage. He was shocked when I pointed out what I saw. It caused him to change his point of view.
What was your conclusion?:)
Thanks Jeff Durbin for coming on here and bringing some truth to the part that our teachers have let us down the most, eschatology. Christ will be victorious! I am thoroughly convinced of the "Post-Mill" view. Thank you God!
Logically speaking it does make more sense that He would build upon His kingdom bringing more to Christ before returning rather than losing more souls along the way. Why wait for more to be lost?
Then I look around & think it’s gotta be pre-trib 😳
@@ameliam7898 Yes the Bible is full of imagery that the Kingdom will be full before Christ returns to hand over His completed work to the Father , only to defeat the last enemy- death (1 Cor 15). I get it. But don't forget EVERY generation since Adam has things that could give them the idea the end is near. I figure I shall trust in God's plan, not the newspaper and man's.
They taught him some weird dispensationalism if they based the rapture on Matthew 24-25. Tsk tsk.
It's a cloudy subject. Whatever happens, we stand with Jesus.
Amen 🙏🏿🙏🏿
Hes a postmillenialist and he saying matthew 24 is not the upcoming rapture, but was a partial preterist in that it took place during the fall of Jerusalem circa 70AD
A lot of the different views come from how one approaches many of the texts or a book like Revelation. And, many of the passages are very difficult. Hence, why there are so many different views.
@@theocratickingdom30 My husband used to say he was a PAN-Milleneist: "God will have it all pan out in the end." He knew he was saved and going to be with Jesus.
Which verses would you say are more clearly teaching the rapture? Genuinely asking..
WE win by enduring. Yes!! The Victory is THE LORDS, and our victory is through HIM, by enduring and trusting in HIM!!! JESUS bless you all!!
I agree with Jeff on eschatology and theonomy and pretty much all points of theology apart from baptism. But I definitely appreciate Allie pushing back and holding her ground on the premillennial position. I think many times we get so stuck in our own theology that we don't really take the time to examine the fact that other people presently and historically have understood certain passages or parables differently. Certainly we should have the humility to consider the other viewpoints and examine our own and insomuch as that took place here I found it edifying.
I read these prophecies as "already but not yet". So I somewhat understand and agree with both and this has been pretty insightful.
Yes! Already but not yet. That seems to be the pattern in the New Testament.
Appreciate seeing two believers get along while disagreeing
This topic has been an obsession for me for the past 5-7 years. I was once a strong verbal proponent of pre-mil. I began to study the historical advent of the pre-mil theology and realized that, as Durbin implies, it was once a novel theology in the West. Today, I tend to lean more post-mil. Christians need to be flexible on these topics within the reasonable limits imposed by scripture. Allie, you should do a segment with Doug Wilson. Thanks for the great content.
Ty N yes! 🙏🏼 amen 🙏🏼
2 Timothy 3:13 so it means to me just what it says therefore I do not pull back but continue to encourage sinners to repent and believe the Gospel John 14:6 I am the way the truth and the life Thank God for the both of you 🙌🏾🙌🏾🙂
Hmmm....some good points he mentioned about looking at your own assumptions when reading the text, but in my opinion there seems to be some other similar assumptions he made about Jesus’ example of Noah that may be influencing how he is reading that text. It would appear that the tie to Noah in Jesus’ example would at least be the fact of “sudden” judgement in both cases, not necessarily “who” was left behind and who wasn’t (i.e. the method of judgement being carried out doesn’t necessarily seem to be the main point of that comparison). I would be cautious about that line of thinking. Also - he said he began this theological journey regarding Revelation because of an inescapable “feeling” he had after sharing. That type of motivation can also lead us to the assumption that our reading of the text must be wrong, and lead us to feel we need to search the text until we discover an alternate explanation...all starting from a “feeling”. Just a word of caution.
James Willison I appreciate your input and gentleness in discourse of a non-primary theological topic - thank you. I do think there may be a misunderstanding when you asserted that my comment was disingenuous though - I have no need to not be candid or honest about what I was commenting on, nor am pushing an argument for either stance. I was merely pointing to his mention of his initial motivation to comb through revelation daily was in response to a negative “feeling” after a conversation he had. My understanding is that “feeling” was what initiated his entire journey to read the book daily, and eventually change his stance. Of course it was his actual reading of the text that was the decisive factor to reach his current stance. I am not even making any assertion that his “feeling” that started his questioning was wrong or right, but that non-tangible “spiritual feelings” as motivations have the potential to be extremely deceptive...it can end up being a motivational “itch” that beckons to be “scratched” somehow. Those strong feelings can be accurate at times, or potentially lead us away from a right understanding of scripture.
I guess all in all, I would not have questioned someone’s motivation if saying they simply interpret the text differently from further study alone, but when they say that they had this inescapable “feeling” that they’ve done something wrong and thus begin searching the text daily in order to make sense of the text in response to that feeling, and then reach a new stance it gives me cause for a simple word of caution. I almost never comment on the internet in general, so apologies if my comment was taken in any offense. Not intended to be a questioning of this man’s faith, his character, theology, or an indictment on this man by any means. Just a clarification on my original cautionary comment. :)
Not only that but his blatant misuse of Noah’s flood and focus on a strawman (left behind series), and half truths are cause for a red flag. Par for the course with all popular names in this space unfortunately.
We are always in end times.
Optimistic post mil is where I’m at. Enjoyed the discussion. Allie you got the hook ups... Jeff is great
Great guests you have had lately.
Really enjoyed Dr. Bauchman and now Jeff Durbin..
You are awesome.
Seems you like reformed theology !!!
I am loving these episodes with guest speakers. Especially Jeff Durbin! love that guy
Great discussion! I will say that I was also taught pre-mill dispensationalism and it caused me to have a lot of anxiety and worry! Now I'm post-mill and see the world very differently, to say the least! Post-mill is so much more encouraging, and I believe it is more Biblical. Thanks to both of you for doing this video!
Every former futurist that becomes Preterist says the same things. :)
Yeah and that's how your base Bible doctrine, on whatever makes you feel good! Good to know you're not looking for the return of the Lord anymore, and are comfortable in this world, which is about to be roasted by fire! Postmillennialism is heresy
Keep in mind the purpose of the Tribulation. It is God's judgment being poured out on rebellious Christ rejectors. It's also the time period of Jacob's Trouble which has to do with Israel. The true born again believers in Jesus are not going through God's wrath. Our sins were already judged on the cross! We are no longer under condemnation! We are sealed by the Holy Spirit! There is no reason for the church (the Bride of Christ) to go through all those seals, bowls, etc of torment and torture.
BTW, what would you call what Enoch, Lot, and Elijah experienced? Hint: the root word for each incident is a form of the word "harpazo", which comes from the Latin Vulgate meaning sudden snatching, caught up. I highly recommend anyone who doubts this fact to take out a Strong's Concordance and do a word study.
You won't lose your salvation because you disagree with us. But you can lose your reward for rejection of the Rapture.
Also, do a study on the rewards at the bema seat. You may be pleasantly surprised! 😊
It's the only area I've been all over the place. Been like Jeff then Allie. I even thought I was a pre-wrath guy for a time. But I decided I'll keep studying preach the Gospel and will leave this earth when God ordained it
OH MY GOSHHHH!! You got Jeff Durbin!! 🤩🥳🤯🙌🏻😱🎉 your collabs are fire
It was the end times when Jesus was hear on earth. How much closer are we now
I bounce between pre-mil, historic pre-mil and Amil. One thing I'm sure about, Jesus is returning.
Yes, I think pre trib makes the most sense, there is a case for post trib, but I won't hang my hat on either, whether I'm right or wrong, my Savior is coming back for His bride and I pray to be ready on that day. It takes daily preparing your heart and loving the lost and doing the great commission.
It sounds as if you are solidly both "pan-mil" and "pro-mil." That is, whatever pans out, you are definitely for it.
I have definitely seen so many people who not only say what's the point it's only gonna get worse, but the sit in their homes, do nothing, and get excited as things get worse cuz they assume that means they are leaving anyway now. It is also just as scary to grow up being told you could disappear at any moment all the time as it is to tell kids the world is gonna end in 12 years. Regardless of which it is, the obsession with the end is ruining generations of people. I always say, do what God calls you to do and focus on christ and helping others and don't worry about when your life will be over weather taken or in death.
This is such an awesome discussion.
I’m new to your channel but thanks for allowing Jeff to speak. My story is similar to his.
My two fave ppl in one episode 😭🙌🏻
Thanks Allie, and I've been so blessed by Apologia
Jeff Durbin is my homeboy! Love it
I am postmil I had to accept it because of Matthew 24 it says this generation its hard to make a case for it to mean a different generation when every other time in Matthew it was used it meant that generation he spoke to.
I'm curious because I don't know that much about post-mil, what was the mark of the beast if/when these things already occurred? Was there a time back then when people were marked and could not buy or sell without that mark?
@@zzevonplant
That's actually what I thought she would be talking to Dr. Voddie Baucham about this past Friday. Amillennialism is his view, and it is the most biblically correct and logically consistent view that I've heard so far. This interview helped with clarifying that the tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 doesn't apply to the church of today, but it failed to address that
1) the church is now enduring a Great Tribulation and has been since Christ's ascension and the launch of the church,
2) the mark of the beast is not a physical mark but is figurative language for a spiritual condition of belonging to Satan, as all unbelievers do,
3) that the spirit of antichrist is now here and has been here attacking the church since its beginning, (in the forms of government, false prophets and teachers, the criticsm and attacks of the unbelieving world, etc)
4) and while the church will not conquer all of culture, entertainment, education, and government etc, before Christ returns and consummates his kingdom (which will not be an international, physical earthly kingdom,) he is indeed ruling with his people with him, and together we are conquering through the spread of the Gospel and the salvation of individual souls.
These are the overriding issues that often get lost in translation when eschatology is discussed because we don't have a consistent hermeneutic, we don't understand what applies to us and what doesn't, we don't understand or believe it when Romans, Galatians and Ephesians teaches that there is no longer a distinct between ethnic Jews and Gentiles as the people of God, and a lot of us just simply gobble down and regurgitate what we hear from others rather than seeking the help of the Holy Spirit to help us to rightly interpret what we read in God's word.
@@zzevonplant The Mark on your forehead and on your hand in the OT was symbolic, and thus the Mark of the Beast is also symbolic. It was symbolic of who your authority was (head - seal) and how you lived your life, your works (hand). That is all the mark of the beast is. Anyone who was bowing the knee to Emperor Nero (the beast) essentially "took the mark of the beast." He ruled for 42 months against the saints. Emperor Nero decapitated Paul with his own sword, he crucified Peter upside down. He then committed suicide by his own sword (fulfilling Revelation 13).
@@johnmyers3450 How did they prevent people from buying and selling based on something non-physical/not-immediately-obvious? Like, if the mark is a symbol for being on God's side, essentially, how did they use that to keep people from buying or selling? I'm not being sarcastic or trying to refute you or anything, I'm genuinely asking. Just saying that b/c I know sometimes people ask questions in a back-handed kind of way and I don't want you to think that's where I'm coming from.
@@zzevonplant I agree with your point🙃 but I want to understand the other side too because I still can't understand it
Allie: You got postmillenialism, and premillenialism.
Amillennialism: Am I joke to you?
Marshall Proctor Ikr. I hope she brings a guest with an amillennial perspective. I think that would also be a great conversation.
happycodie - Yeah, have Voddie back on. 👍
The point is obedience, plain and simple!
I have respect for you, but I would recommend listening to Dr. Andy Woods and putting the scripture in the right place, really helped me, being pre-trib does not make you non-motivated, just the opposite.
I agree, Dr. Andy Woods really does do a great job of outlining his arguments for a pre-tub rapture.
Andy Woods is the man, and I hope anyone listening to this will go listen to him before confirming their landing spot on this issue. Jeff Durbin is not a trustworthy teacher.
I have wavered back and forth between camps since being saved. I have found Andy Woods a great help! I tried to see things the way Pastor Jeff explains, but for now I can't see it in scripture. Andy Woods has some great teaching series!
Jeff is trying the best he can the fact that we have all these interpretations we don't know who is right
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The New Covenant: Bob George
ruclips.net/video/Rj7NQffg_NE/видео.html
I feel like I still don't understand postmillennialism lol. Ugh, I wish it wasn't over already, I feel like he was only halfway finished.
This is only part 1! Part 2 coming Friday.
Hey Sara, if you are interested in looking more into Postmillennialism, here is a playlist on Jeff's sermons specifically on this topic (Matthew 24, end times, etc.)
ruclips.net/p/PLOpoipBF9249I8x_6UeSl90ZOIpIiYrn_
Allie Beth Stuckey Yay!!
Check out his channel on RUclips apologia studios. he has lots of content there.
Amen! Preach it Brother and Sister!
To God be the Glory 🙌🏾💯
The MSM's take on Revelation: "There's not enough racism in this to talk about."
😂 true
There's horse racism. Pale, Black, Brown... and that White Supremacist horse.
I have commented a lot more than I thought I would on this video, so I'll post this comment here outside the conversations I have had during the last several days with multiple people. This is for anyone who comes across it and cares to read it:
I will say this, regardless of our varying eschatological positions, let's all be in constant prayer for fellow saints and for the lost because regardless of when, the Lord Jesus is coming and his judgment will not tarry! Also, I really hope that my comments haven't caused any unnecessary division, even though to a certain extent I enjoy debating eschatology and find it to be edifying. Haughtiness and division is not my intent as it is displeasing to the Holy Spirit who unites us in Christ, displeasing to Jesus Christ who prayed to the Father that we be united as one just as he is united with the Father, and displeasing to the Father who elected us and presents us together as a bride to our Lord Jesus. These discussions can get heated, so I just want to say for anyone who might have read my comments, that as an amillennialist, I love you, my dear brethren, and I pray that God helps us all to mature in love and holiness as he increases and preserves our hope in him in the midst of the tribulations we now endure. I enjoy our limited, virtual fellowship, and I would appreciate your prayers in return!
Why is it though that amil and post mail always look down on the other views and say things like “we hope you mature”
@@carlyd2300 I can't speak for those who hold to either of those views, but personally I don't think that one's eschatology view has anything to do with their maturity as a Christian. It's just a matter of whether they've been taught hermeneutical principles, if they refer to the original language when interpreting prophetic passages, and how familiar with historical events they are. Apparently, Voddie Baucham said that Revelation 1:1-2 tells us that the prophetic language through the book is supposed to be interpreted symbolically unless we come across something that is obviously literal. One wouldn't know that unless they refer to the original Greek language or they happen to come across Voddie's or Sam Storms' etc, sermons like I did.
I'm 22 years old and had been interested in endtimes prophecy since before I was saved and in fact God used it to bring me to salvation, yet I started out holding to premillenialism then the amount of Scripture I kept coming across led me away from any chance that Christians would be raptured and not have to endure tribulation until Christ's return, and then I came across Voddie Baucham and listened to his stuff on marriage and then everything else until I found his series on Revelation and then I finally arrived at amillennialism-a label I HATE btw.
I haven't come across any who hold this view who are arrogant and condescending, but I have heard several premillenialisms say things like "Jesus has not appointed us to wrath because if so he would be like an abusive husband and God would be like a derelict, evil Father for making his children go through the Great Tribulation. So Christians have to raptured because Jesus isn't coming back for a beat up, ugly, battered down bride but for a beautiful one." Statements like that express immaturity because it's arrogant and shows disregard for the countless amount of saints who have and are now suffering horrendous persecution and it ignores the clear teachings of Jesus and the apostles that Christians MUST suffer and endure to the end as a result of trusting in and following him.
I agree with pastor Jeff and made the same transition myself from pre-mill to post. One of the big things to distinguish is the understanding of Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks. If you read it by itself without any preconceived eschatology, there is nothing there that puts a gap between the 69th and 70th week. In fact, the one who makes the strong covenant with many for one week in verse 27 is the same person who is the cut off anointed one, i.e. Christ himself. The strong covenant he makes is the New covenant in his blood poured out for “many”. Below is my reworked Daniel 70 weeks in Dan. 9:24-27
“Seventy weeks (heptads, or blocks of 7 years) are determined upon thy people (the Jews) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness (all of these were accomplished by Christ and the cross), and to seal up the vision and prophecy (in other words fulfillment of all the prophets and prophecies concerning the Jewish people, old covenant age, and the nation), and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem (usually thought as Artexerxes, as stated in Ezra 6:14) unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks (Approx. 483 years from the time of decree until Christ is baptized by John, thus beginning His presentation to Israel as the Messiah) and the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times (the city of Jerusalem and walls were rebuilt for seven heptads, or approx. 49 years under times of unrest). And after threescore and two weeks (the remaining approx. 434 years) shall Messiah be cut off (crucified), but not for himself: (But for His bride, His church from all nations, languages, and tribes. Because the Jews rejected and crucified their messiah, the following words of judgement will occur within that generation per Matthew 24:34) and the people (Romans) of the prince (Titus of Rome) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (precisely fulfilled in 70 A.D. The Jewish Roman war was between 66-70 AD, 3 1/2 years or 42 months); and the end thereof shall be with a flood (flood is a common term for an overwhelming army), and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (the end of the Jewish war with Rome that resulted in their desolation, and the destruction of the Temple and end of mosaic covenant age). And he (now talking again about the messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (in the last heptad of 7 years, the new covenant in Christ’s blood is confirmed with many per Matt. 26:28: “for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins”): and in the midst of the week (in the middle of the last heptad of years, or 3 1/2 years, which is the length of time of Christ ministry from His baptism until the cross) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (which was accomplished by Christ’s atoning sacrifice abolishing and ceasing animal sacrifices ending the old mosaic covenant), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate (which he did as prescribed in Mathew 23:38 and then described in Matthew 24), even until the consummation (the old covenant ended forever), and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.” (In other words, Jerusalem and Jewish nation was desolated or ended by God in judgement as prophesied by Moses in Deuteronomy 32:1-43, and in Matt. 23:38 “See, your house is left to you desolate.” There is still a remnant of Jews chosen by grace (Romans 11:5) that believe in Christ, just like anyone else (i.e. gentiles). As Paul said there is now neither Jew nor gentile, all are one in Christ. Therefore no gap between 69-70th week. The whole 70 weeks are consecutive. Some say the last 3 1/2 years of 70th week is time that the gospel was still to Jews (e.g. Acts 2) but the time ended when gospel was introduced to Gentiles after Stephen was stoned.
I LOVE pastor Jeff! The greatest teacher/pastor I've ever heard. And I've heard some great ones.
Josh Higdon Those sort of statements usually mean that they agree with you.
Praying for Jeff Durbin to be delivered from Calvinism. He has a great heart and I love his stance on many things, especially the abortion issue.
Why would you say that? Do you understand what Calvinism is?
@@robertgonzalez662 It makes God into a joker and worst of all it makes Jesus sacrifice meaningless.
I feel lucky to be among the chosen to know the lord 💪 but at the same time I realise the need for Jesus blood , sin and imperfections is very real.
We are all like the worst sinners .
Out choices do matter, God has been known to beg and plead with some types of sinners but they refuse until they die .
There is a very very real element of choice.
God keeps the choice of those who decide to keep evil in their hearts , he used to hardens them to death but now he just leaves you to Satan to blind you if you're stubborn.
David wasn't the first choice and neither was Abraham.
Shocker !!
Both could have ended up as Saul or terra , Abrahams dad who God had initially chosen to leave yet he stayed.
At the core is hardness of heart
@@cedriceric9730 based on the examples you gave, it seems like you don’t understand what Calvinism is. I suggest (in a loving way) to do more research on the subject. For Calvinism is biblical.
@@robertgonzalez662 what you don't seem to have any explanations ?
Go right on and explain Calvinism please
My examples are 100% bible accurate and irrefutable
God wasn't joking around when he chose Saul , he really gave him the kingdom but Saul failed and God moved on.
Terra settled for some reason and God chose Abraham who also delayed but his heart was right and he moved finally.
There was no melodrama
In a loving way , give a proper explanation otherwise
@@robertgonzalez662 It did a study quite recently infact
Many of it's followers are violently anti grace and trust in the law
I guess when Jesus' feet touch the mount of olives when He returns (Zach 14), thats not literally? Welcome to the non-premill twighlight zone where God is the author of confusion and doesn't mean what He says.
Zachariah prophesy relied on Israel to fulfill their part of the conditional covenant for that to take place.
Many people fail to notice the 'If you follow my commands and fulfill my laws then I will ....' parts of the OT and so there is confusion
ruclips.net/video/EtoK00Pnn_Y/видео.html
@Sparker Russ, Where does it say this prophesy is conditional? God's plan was established from the foundation of the world and Enoch was already preaching Christ second coming long before Moses. The covenant was conditional yes, but this prophesy is not, just as Christ's return is not dependent on keeping the original Sinai covenant which has been finished according to the covenant law itself (as the death of the husband ends the marriage covenant, Rom 7.2, and through the new covenant established in His blood we are joined to the resurrected Yeshua Jesus in everlasting life)
Do you believe that a woman is in heaven with twelve stars on her head and standing on the moon and clothed in the sun? Do you believe that Satan is a huge dragon in the sky? DO YOU? Are you a Bible denier? Do you spiritualist everything? When David was being chased by Saul David said that God came to him on a cloud and that the mountains melted and blood flowed all over the earth! Do yo believe that literally happened or are you a Bible denier? Do you live in the twilight zone?
@@josiajones9774 Nice strawman.
_"Do you believe that a woman is in heaven with twelve stars on her head and standing on the moon and clothed in the sun? Do you believe that Satan is a huge dragon in the sky? DO YOU? [...] When David was being chased by Saul David said that God came to him on a cloud and that the mountains melted and blood flowed all over the earth!"_
Actually when you consult ALL of scripture using discernment and know from Gen 1.14 that the stars are used for SIGNS (ie, the 12 signs of heaven, many named in the bible, known throughout the world in all ancient cultures with some variance and corruptions as to be expected) - we can understand the symbolic language refers to real things taking place in the heavens and on earth: the Woman in heaven described in Rev 12 is the star map of Virgo with the sun mid-bodied and standing over the new moon of Rosh Hashana, the new year beginning Tishri 1, which on the Gregorian calendar was on 9/11/3 BCE - when the virgin gave birth to the light of the world - the seed of the woman (Spica the alpha star held by Virgo as a wheat branch) and bread of heaven, the heavens reflecting the earthly event. The dragon is constellation Draco or fleeing serpent _"By His breath the heavens are cleared; His hand has pierced the fleeing serpent."_ (Job 26.13) which on earth was Satan working through king Herod attempting to slay the infant Christ. Remember it was the wise men (magi) who came from the east following the star of Bethlehem (planet Zedek which is "Righteousness" a title of Messiah, which we know as Jupiter the king planet) who understood the signs and times and consulted with Herod before this happened.
Psalms often use poetic language, but still impart spiritual, physical, prophetic truths when you understand the symbols and idioms and references -- in this case it would refer in part again to Rev 12 (vv 13-17) in another fulfillment of the woman as the body of believers fleeing the antichrist as did the exodus of Mary and Joseph with Yeshua from Herod into Egypt in a turn of events revealing Israel as spiritual Egypt (Rev 11.8) which in a future fulfillment is the body of believers in Israel fleeing the antichrist's army just before Christ's return in a cloud of glory and the earth quaking and volcanoes melting perhaps along the largest fault line in the world that runs below the Jordan Rift valley that goes through the lowest place on the earth's surface, the Dead Sea, which is the lake of the fire that burned with sulfur and bitumen in times past near ancient Sodom and Gomorrah and will again one day when the great city where the Lord was crucified is burned in God's wrath and the nation's armies are crushed and the blood runs deep in the valley of Megiddo.
You Are Amazing! God Bless You!
I'm still researching this topic for myself but I will say I had a similar experience that Jeff explained @11:54. In 2015 I was having lunch with a friend who is a nonbeliever but was raised in a premil/pretrib teaching baptist church. I guess I was thinking I should warn him of this suddenly catching away and great tribulation for his soul's sake. I tried to speak and it was like I couldn't get the words out. You should've seen his face. He was like "Were you going to say something"? lol When I finally got a few words out, I felt grieved. It was awful. Having said that, I'm not writing off premil/pretrib based off of that experience. Just cautious. That just may not have been what the Lord was going to use to win my friend back over.
I’m ex dispensational premill . And I’m now Amill, and I would now excepted postmill over dispensationalism. 🤓
I think anything is better than Dispensationalism lol
Agreed
I really like this dialogue at it relates to eschatological perspectives. I believe everything has to evaluated against the scriptures as Jeff Durbin put it. Personally after prayerfully studying the scripture i have come to the understanding that the post tribulation eschatological view has not comprehensively incorporated scripture to rightly divide it for this reason my view remains unchanged as one who affirms a pre tribulation rapture view when it comes to eschatology
So, what are some of the reasons you disagree with Durbin's point of view on this? This issue is really important to me, and I am of the opinion that pre-trib, pre-mil view is correct, but watching this really made me worry that maybe I'm wrong, especially the verse where Jesus says that generation wouldn't pass away until these things happened. So, since you are also pre-mil and pre-trib, I'm wondering what your interpretation or what the typical pre-mil interpretation is of that particular verse?
@@zzevonplant Ok these are things to notice that Pastor Durbin does not elucidate because these are parts of scripture he needs to contend with as it relates to post mill theology.
First notice how Durbin kind of fastforwarded through Mathew 24 to verse 34 👉This generation👈. That being the case if one is reading contextually we must find out how we got to this point in verse 34🤔 If one starts off from the beginning of the chapter things become clearer.
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, 👉Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 👈 Matthew 24:1-3
So notice...
1. The disciples are asking what shall be the sign of your coming ❓
Christ 2nd Coming has not occured yet I believe even Pastor Durbin may agree which is why we tend to lay out this Chapter as Future to us because Christ did not come back in the 1st Century.
2. What shall be the signs of the end of the World again corresponding to a time we have yet to reach❓
When you read Mathew 24:4-14 its laid out pretty linearly. Verses 4-14 answers the question of 👉events leading up to the end of the world👈.
Mathew 24:15-31 answers the question in again a pretty linear fashion explaining 👉events from The End of The World leading upto the 2nd Coming of Christ to set up His Kingdom👈.
Now when you reach Mathew 24:32-34 notice Jesus goes into 👉a parable👈 in Verse 32, and explains the parable in the very next 2 verses. In Verse 33-34 no longer is he explaining 👉order of events as they unfold one after the other👈 he is now (recapping) by saying 👉 When you shall see all these things👈. what are all these things❓ it is everything explained in Mathew 24:3-31. When Jesus finally talks about 👉This generation👈 He is referring to the generation existing between the verses of Mathew 24:3-31.
In Mathew 24:35 Christ makes His Declaration pretty clear
By the time we get to Mathew 24:36 Christ starts out by saying 👉But of that day and hour👈 no longer is He speaking of events flowing linearly one after the other because the Parable and the recap 👉disrupted the continuity👈. Rather Christ is transitioning to a specific day because He is now talking about The Rapture from Mathew 24:36-44
Lastly Jesus concludes Mathew 24 in the final verses in Mathew 24:45-51 with rewarding or condemning His servants who obeyed or disobeyed.
God bless you if you have any questions please feel free to ask ☺🙏🏻 glory to God for His goodness and faithfulness of His Word🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
@@KayellVargas Thank you! I'll have to read through that whole chapter again, I think it'll be easier for me to understand after having read this. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out. God bless you. If I have questions after reading it I'll come back and let you know.
@@zzevonplant God bless you may The grace of The LORD lead you in His Ways and after His counsel☺🙏🏻
@Laura EH Also when Pre Trib is elucidated throughout scripture Mathew 24 fits in perfectly with pre trib 😊 God bless you
Allie I would love to see you host an interview like this with Amillennialists like Dr Sam Storms or any other. Thanks!
No one knows the day or hour so whatever we believe Pre Trib, Mid Trib or Post Trib if we keep our eyes on Jesus we will be with Him.
Now you should get someone to represent the Amillenialism view of end times
Yep. Get Dr. Kim Riddlebarger on.
That's actually what I thought she would be talking to Dr. Voddie Baucham about this past Friday. Amillennialism is his view, and it is the most biblically correct and logically consistent view that I've heard so far. This interview helped with clarifying that the tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 doesn't apply to the church of today, but it failed to address that
1) the church is now enduring a Great Tribulation and has been since Christ's ascension and the launch of the church,
2) the mark of the beast is not a physical mark but is figurative language for a spiritual condition of belonging to Satan, as all unbelievers do,
3) that the spirit of antichrist is now here and has been here attacking the church since its beginning, (in the forms of government, false prophets and teachers, the criticsm and attacks of the unbelieving world, etc)
4) and while the church will not conquer all of culture, entertainment, education, and government etc, before Christ returns and consummates his kingdom (which will not be an international, physical earthly kingdom,) he is indeed ruling with his people with him, and together we are conquering through the spread of the Gospel and the salvation of individual souls.
These are the overriding issues that often get lost in translation when eschatology is discussed because we don't have a consistent hermeneutic, we don't understand what applies to us and what doesn't, we don't understand or believe it when Romans, Galatians and Ephesians teaches that there is no longer a distinct between ethnic Jews and Gentiles as the people of God, and a lot of us just simply gobble down and regurgitate what we hear from others rather than seeking the help of the Holy Spirit to help us to rightly interpret what we read in God's word.
I was taught like Jeff was, back in the day. But as I get older and read more, I realize its just not a sustainable position. Not sure that any eschatological system is 100% correct, but it sure is fun to talk about each of them.
Well here's one you may not have heard :)...my son thinks James and John may be the two witnesses...and I'm seriously considering it. If you read Rev 10 the last verse John is being told he will witness before all Nations and kings then Rev 11 continues. Also consider what Jesus said to the two "sons of thunder" about their ministry, it's quite interesting 🤔😃
clearascrystal well even the brethren are martyred by the false messiah because of their testimony, which in the Greek (where we get the word martyr from) means witness. The text speaks of two prominent witnesses in Rev 11 who have great powers as exhibited by Moses and Elijah - the same two prophets who were seen on the Mt of transfiguration when Yeshua revealed His glory as a glimpse of things at His second coming, which a few verses earlier He said some (James, John and Peter - the “pillar apostles”) standing there would see. So already the two prophets were used as witnesses as to who Christ is and will do so again at His second coming in glory. Amen
@@AllOtherNamesUsed I agree it does seem like it would be Moses and Elijah also. That's who I assumed it would be before. Then I heard Enoch and Elijah because neither actually died as yet. It is a mystery, but, the Lord did not say Moses and Elijah in Rev 11... just two mysterious witnesses. I guess we'll all see pretty soon!
I hear ya. I used to think Enoch and Elijah too for the same reason - but the text doesn’t indicate them not dying as being a requirement. Every clue the text does give indicates Moses and Elijah, both the appearances on the Mt of transfiguration and the powers they are given in Rev 11. And just as an aside, nobody would be a more authoritative prophet to Israel than the author of the Torah resurrected and preaching Yeshua Jesus and the blood of the new and better covenant. They would have no excuses after that! Peace in Christ
Allie and/or Mark, if either of you are interested in having someone discourse with you about unraveling some of the eschatological mishaps I believe you have innocently stumbled into, I am more than happy to do so with you....whether privately or in an interview format.
Great job, Allie! You gave good responses and I enjoyed the cordial dialogue.
It would be interesting for Jeff to show us what passages speak of the second coming of Jesus.
Great summary of his shift in perspective. It was the same for me. You had to do some mental gymnastics to make Premillennialism & a rapture as it is understood, etc. to work. It also helped me when I came to understand the origins of these relatively new beliefs from Darby (dispensationalism, etc.) which came from the Jesuits. We must let the text speak for itself. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little.
Thanks for your continued prayers deeply appreciate it I'm very sick Im praying to God I would appreciate it if anyone could pray for me I'm suffering please pray for me I'm praying for everyone everyday God bless you all 🙏
Amen I pray for healing Steve, May the Great physician heal your body. In Jesus Name. Amen!
Prayers sent your way!
Prayed for you Steve
Healing & Miracles for Steve, in Jesus' Name and Jehovah Raphae☆☆☆
Love Jeff Durbin!
I follow a pastor and other teachers who are definitely in the pre-tribulation rapture but they are also some of the biggest fighters for doing what is right in this culture. Just because you believe and hope we're getting out of here soon, we don't know when it will be. And regardless of when we live, in the meantime we need to be about our Father's business. We need to shine the light of the Hope that we have, this is not the time to be sitting on our couches and just waiting. That's not what God calls us to.
Its post trib that allows people to live in sin and wait for the tribulation to being.
Well said.
I wish Jeff would have spent some time defining what HE believes. Because I agree with his explanation of Matthew 24, but I'm still firmly pre-trib. 🤷♂️
He believes Matthew 24 was a prediction of Ad 70. The event in which a million Jews were slaughtered, temple was destroyed etc. In my opinion, as RC Sproul believed, it’s the greatest apologetic to show someone the prophecy of Jesus Christ
@@haroldbailey9011 before Dr Sproul passed away his view about the scatology was changed and he affirmed during Ligonier conference Q&A with Pastor J. MacArthur and Pastor S. Lawson.
manny cc sure, but that doesn’t take away from the validity of his statement. He changed his view to classical premillennialism. His still had the same view of Matthew 24
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The New Covenant: Bob George
ruclips.net/video/Rj7NQffg_NE/видео.html
I really appreciated this video! I love Allie & Jeff, and Jeff has a very biblical perspective I hadn’t heard before. Going to ponder these things!
I hadn’t really immersed myself in this issue before, knowing that I’m never going to understand the mind of God and what he has prepared ,but knowing whatever it is, will be his good will and that I can trust Him completely!
The reason you haven't heard it before is because it isn't true... I've watched and read many books and videos about the pre trip rapture and it's the only thing that makes sense biblically...
I have learned so much from Jeff Durbin. Thank you Jeff, god has put you in my path to help people like me.
Luke's version of the Olivet discourse, unlike that in Matthew and Mark, is split into two chapters, 21, as mentioned in the interview and in chapter 17. In 17, verses 26-28,, Luke talks about the "Days of Noah," mentioned in Matthew 24:37-41. Durbin's exegesis is sound, if you take the time.
Rejecting dispensational pre-millennialism, and embracing post-millennialism from a partial-preterist view, has been (next to becoming a Christian) the most transforming conversion of my life. I have never been so hopeful and full of joy. The Scriptures have opened up to me like never before.
I know exactly what your talking about. I heard all the gloom and doom for 40 years. And one day I read and reread Matt 24 and suddenly everything I thought I knew got dumped on it's head. The futurist dispensationalism was gone. Thank you Lord.!!!!!!
Jeff is exactly right, I was one of those people in the pew who was just waiting on Christ to come back. Now my eyes have been opened to the post-mil view.
I've been looking for part two of this where is it?
Good stuff... more more! Jean jacket by the way is pretty cool.
I agree that Jesus spoke of things that happened during His time but also of things to come. Often God speaks on many levels. The kingdom is here now but He will return and reign physically too. I also think pre, post and mid tribulation are all correct and all 3 will happen. It's great to explore this topic and so interesting to hear different perspectives but I think we tend to think it only can be one way when God often speaks on many levels.... Like in Matt 17 when the disciples asked Jesus about why the scribes say Elijah must come first , Jesus then answers and says he is coming and that he has already come pointing to His ultimate return and the role of the church and also pointing to John the Baptist and Himself at that time.
Great conversation! When Jesus cam to the earth the religious leaders of the day did not recognize him as the messiah even though they were well versed with scripture. I’m an eschatology buff but I try not to hold on to my views too tightly because the return of our king may not look like I think it will ✝️
If you read Matt 23 the issue was not that scripture was too hard to understand, the issue was they they were evil, corrupt men in their hearts, thus they were blinded from seeing HE was the Messiah. Jesus was extremely clear about this point, so don't ever convince yourself the issue is the scriptures can't be understood.
@@Orange6921 yes thank you!
@@Orange6921 exactly! I just made a similar observation to someone else right above this post. I'll share it here:
There is much confusion and a ongoing disinfo campaign over the pretrib/posttrib issue not because it's so difficult to understand but because it helps identify the antichrist program which is essentially the goal of the leaders of Israel today and their proxies, and thus is a critical issue of national security, and is largely responsible for the confusion through various global networks. The book of Revelation and others reveals this top secret military/economic/ecumenical agenda operating through international freemasonry (a so-called 'zionist' front; the builders who rejected the true capstone), the occult, and other harlots serving the mother of harlots mystery Babylon, where our Lord was crucified (Rev 11.8, 17.4-5, 18). No teacher/preacher is allowed a large audience who teaches this and will be stifled by 'big tech' and hounded or worse. I go much deeper on the blog linked atop my channel with reports and documentation.
Know the sign of the fig tree, fruitless and cursed by Yeshua, regrown! - the fruitless temple ministry destroyed in 70 AD, back in service under the renewal of the Sinai covenant marriage renewed by the false prophet posing as Elijah as expected by the rabbis. When you see it, know He is near at the doors of the temple in heaven soon to return as shown in Revelation. cf Mat 21.19-46; 3.7-10
Haaretz article from 2018: *Israel sets up secret firm with ex-generals, diplomats for online 'mass awareness' campaign*
Jerusalem Post 2017 article: *Israel and the unexpected new world order*
This is predictable from NT scriptures rightly understood, which the US State Dept is labeling antisemitic and basically wants to outlaw in part.
The book of Revelation itself reveals "the great city" mystery Babylon ruling over the earth is Jerusalem:
_“The woman whom you saw is THE GREAT CITY, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”_ Rev 17.18
_"And their dead bodies will lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified."_ (ie, Jerusalem) Rev 11.8
_"your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery [PHARMAKEIA]. And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”_
If people want a more in-depth discussion about post-millennialism, I would highly recommend Dr. Ken Gentry's teachings on the book of Revelation. Jeff also has an in-depth teaching series on Matthew 24 with tons of crossover with Revelation. These two men are amazing teachers.
I’ve never heard of this perspective. It’s interesting though that it does feel different in my spirit. It makes me feel calm, and positive. Although eschatology beliefs are not issues of salvation, I can really see how it can change the way Christians perceive the world and live out their life. It almost makes the fight seem worth fighting. Instead of this feeling of laying down and waiting to be taken. It feels more powerful to me as a Christian and when we have scripture to back things up that aren’t popular belief it should make us think. Many will be deceived in the end. The NAR in particular and Bethel, etc are mainstreaming most of this deception, which is just a side note unrelated to this particular eschatology discussion, but anyways all of this to say - I really feel blessed by this interview and these perspectives!
Wow..you are very cute Breanna!
“So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?” The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” I Corinthians 15:54-57 NKJV
Great interview Alley, that guy knows his stuff he's right on the money.👍
THANK YOU THAT IS MAKING ME THINK
Are there any teaching materials (videos, books, etc) that explain these concepts amd differences in about a 4th grade level? Sincere question for anyone.
When Christ says, “As it was in the days of Noah” I guess I’m wondering if “it” refers to who and how they were taken or left behind, or if “it” refers to the cultural climate and the dismissal of the impending judgement of God in which the believers were protected from the judgement by being carried above it in the ark and the unbelievers bore the judgement under the waters. One could argue that Noah and his family were “carried away” and the unbelievers left behind under God’s judgement. 🤔
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
Genesis 6:5-8 NKJV
This is the days of Noah. Jesus is plainly saying, when the world's wickedness is great like the time of Noah. Simple as that aye
@The Budget Mentor
Here’s what the Bible says
It’s direct cross reference
“Thus He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky, and they were blotted out from the earth; and only Noah WAS LEFT, together with those that were with him in the ark.”
Genesis 7:23 NASB1995