Turns Out The Chantry Was Lying To Us...
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
- This video is subject to speculation.
In this video, we'll be talking about the Dragon Age Chantry, and how it has a major problem. If you're not familiar with the Chantry, it's a church/religion in the game that players can have faith in about Andraste and the Maker.
However, the problem is that the Chantry is full of lies and misinformation. Instead of teaching players about the real story of Andraste and the Maker, the Chantry is teaching them lies and propaganda. This video breaks all of that down.
0:00 Intro
0:39 Andraste's Identity
4:45 The Chantry
7:14 The Maker's Identity
9:18 Political Aspect
THUMBNAIL CREDIT: naviruo.tumblr.com/post/18207...
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Minor quibble: Andraste was executed, but not crucified. Crucifixion is a very specific form of execution.
ty for that!
she is compared so many times to Jesus, it leads me to start writing about Him without me realizing that was a real term the Romans used. Good catch!
@saria You're welcome :)
Always glad to be helpful.
@@sarialue if am right she was burned. Alive
@@robert23456789 yep! That's why her ashes are sacred.
@@robert23456789 yeah she was burned alive on a pyre, but the archon pitied her and stabbed her in the heart to end her suffering.
Andraste is also heavily based off of Boudica the Iceni Queen who rebeled against the Roman empire after they sacked her lands after the death of her husband King. She lead a coalition of Celtic tribes against the Romans and was a priestess of the war goddess Andraste.
and isn't Boudica also invoke a goddess named Andraste/Andrasta or somethin? an Iceni goddess or maybe Celtic goddess or whatever
@@redpanda3339 yes and depending on the tribe she might might be seen more as a goddess of victory. It's splitting hairs but translations of different tribal dialects might place more emphasis on one aspect or another, for instance the Vocontii of Gaul knew her as Andarte.
I mean, the devs and the writer at the time said they were inspired on the new testament, the barbarian invasion of the late Roman Empire. Hassarian is Pontus Pilate, Maferath is Judas.
He had apostles and she had plenty as well who wrote their own canticles. Chantry is like the catholic church (as stated also by its old writer if that wasnt enough) with its own divisions etc. While history do have inspired stories, its often the readers who finds its associations.
Humans arent that original about what we did when it comes to structures, power and societies. Similarities could be found in many areas.
Boudicca literally trash. She was worthless and just had a few raids and the only time she had a real battle, she lost
@@saintjames1995 no one said she was Belisarius. She burned Verulamium, Camulodunum, part of Londinium, shattered the 9th legion and killed according to Tacitus 70,000 roman and roman allied troops. DA's Andraste similarly had initial success but it's doubtful the north was hazarded in any real way. Now go back to r/militaryhistory you spiteful child.
If you choose to be pragmatic in your conversations with Leliana, she basically tells you that she knew all along.
What if Andraste was an Elf? You never see the ears in any depiction of hers and that may be a bridge between Elven lore and Chantry. After all, humans needed heroes who were human-like
..
I never noticed that until now her ears are always covered by something
this, her ears are always covered. I think she was an elven mage. Mythal herself.
It's like white Jesus. Probably long considered by the writers.
In dlc jawk of hakkon there IS a Statue of Andraste in ancient Elv temple. She holds 2 hallas /holy deer animals in her Hand. And the npc WHO Guides the Inqu in there Said this IS Andraste with Ghilanain. An elv goddess.
@@Anna.K.. thanks Anna. I had totally missed it... It's very interesting
I have nothing against The Maker, but the Chantry is terrible. They try to control everyone, when they should just be there to help people, teach anyone who wants to know about The Maker and so people who believe in him can worship him.
The Chantry took "Magic exists to serve man and not to rule over him" and turned it into "Imprison all mages in case they hurt someone" and ignores the fact that in a lot of cases they hurt people because the Chantry locked them up and they're angry and desperate. It's not an excuse, but it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. My human mages always hate it.
Having said that, though, not all members of the Chantry are bad. You do hear some of them talk about how mages are treated badly, ie, the Chantry Sister in Haven near Leliana's tent in Inquisition, and Leliana herself.
If more members of the Chantry followed their example, the Chantry would be better and the Circles wouldn't exist, or at least they wouldn't be mage prisons.
I'm not even going to touch the real world side of things, because this comment turning into a long one, and I have a headache. In short, the Chantry is arrogant and controlling and needs to change.
Couple more things.
1) Exalted Marches are counterproductive and make the Chantry look like tyrants.
2) The Chantry knows crap all about magic, so they have no right to tell mages how to use theirs. Unless a mage wants to do something bad with it, but in that case, it should probably be another mage.
Agreed thank you for saying it!!!
She heard "the song of the maker" and that sounded incredibly similar to what grey wardens and ghouls describe darkspawn corruption to be... Even when not described as a song, she heard voices and tunes in her head, which is the exact way the ancient magisters of imperium described how the Old Gods communicated with their priest... Maybe spreading the Chant and spreading the corruption upon all the world stem, in fact, from the same root?
Especially since in one interpretation she is coincidentally born around the same time Dumat fell. I like this theory of yours alot!
Punching Solas at the end took me out 🤣
Doesn’t the revelation of the veils creation imply that the golden city would have existed in the real world, Similar to the half structures we see in the eluvians in trespasser? If so, then doesn’t that completely disprove the makers divinity? Like, if the holy city that was supposedly corrupted by man really was just a normal city before the veil was made, then the chantry’s myths surrounding the seat of the maker have to be false.
Also the creation of the dark spawn is called into question
I personally hate the Templars and the Chantry I would be more than happy and would laugh tears if Andraste was an elven mage 😂 they sure would bite their lips bloody
Honestly not to far fetched after meeting ameridan
this is literally my theory. which is why the indentured the elves because they needed to cover it up lol
I would definitely want to know how Tevinters will react to this ,if it's true that is 🤔
In the Jaws of Hakkon dlc (spoilers) the first inquisitor turned out to be an elven mage. Nobody knew this because all records of the elven inquisitor were either concealed or erased after he went missing. It could be possible that Andraste was elven or half since elves do have a much better grasp of magic than anyone else. Hell look at Solas how accustomed he is to magic, and how he took on the elven god's sealed them and created the wall in closing the veil. I wouldn't be surprised if Andraste was elven decent.
Hence why I desecrate Andrastes Ashes everytime
Could you imagine it turns out to be flemith, and the maker is solas. Solas is the maker because the world that humans knows is what Solas is made after the fall with the creation of the veil, and flemith backstory is oddly similar to andraste and says she has gone by many names.
No because the world existed before Solas and the Evanuris. He said it that the Evanris problem: "started with a war and its generals became kings and queens and then became gods" So the world existed before them. And Solas didn't do much aside creating the Veil.
Also, no, Flemeth backstory and Andraste aren't that similar. Andraste was a slave, Flemeth wasn't, Andraste didn't run away from the jealous attentions of a lord, Flemeth did. Andraste led a rebellion against a oppresive empire, Flemeth didn't. Andraste was said to be the bribe of a divine being, Flemeth wasn't.
@@efaristi9737 mythal was the bride of a god even if she herself was a goddess , and she helped Solas lead a rebellion against the other evanuris, but mythal and flemeth are one now. Also not much is known of mythal/flemeth so it is possible she did all those other things. Also what the current people know of the world didn't exist before the veil.
I think... it's not about **being** the Maker per se. Is about a story being told, retold, always missing a part, until eventually it's legend and myth all all we have are pieces and fragments and the world around us as a result. As the one who created things and "separated the earth and skies", as written in the tale of Creation of the Chantry. Isn't that an interesting word choice? Isn't also names like "Skyhold", mmm? Perhaps there was **never** a Maker, only tales of a land where people created things out of thin air, with flags that waved with no need for wind... The first creations that the maker cast away, which sounds **very** much like the world before the veil (again, also mentioned in the legend of creation in DA:O, just look for the "Maker" entry in the codex), and then, suddenly the "Maker" got disappointed at his creation and **duality was created for all things**, and a new reality was made: born out of earth. Unchanging. Solid.
The thing is, this is the story written by the Chantry, written with humanity and a figure they imagine as Maker as centerpieces. But they aren't. There are **no** centerpieces, that's the point. What happened was never **about** humanity. Just a war that happened amongst beings regarded as "Gods" which changed the way things are. There's just the past and the future. Action and consequence. And people writing legends to try to justify things, because they have no more actual idea of what happened long ago because there are no solid records left. Some cultures were too far away from the warring Gods to understand what was happening, didn't understand their culture, or perhaps were too primitive to wrap their heads around the new world after the shift, or why. I imagine that a calamity of catastrophic proportions took place, spirit beings and mages suffering all over the world: Disappearing out of existence. Shifting. Losing control of their magic. Being syphoned into the sky itself, perhaps. If it were a tribal people, I think they would very likely things the Gods were very, very angry. I wonder if the lingering memories of that time is why the qun is so opposed to mages...?
Thedas has no way of understanding the Fade because they are separated planes now, but they were once the same world and they are both suffering the scarring of being separated and confined to their own existences. The Chantry, The Circle of Magi... Perhaps even the darkspawn? So many things were born because of the schism, then solidified due to lack of understanding. None of those would have a **need** to exist before. But the memories of that time were written not in paper, but in dreams, faded away like books exposed to torrential rain. What fragments within the Fade that weren't destroyed when magic was forcibly ripped from Thedas are completely inaccessible to basically anyone without the right skillset, made even harder because people are just used to how the world is now.
Imagine someone just walking in and saying **seriously** to you "gravity is artificial"! You would think they are crazy, right? How likely you think highly regarded scientists would listen to that person and test their hypothesis? Now imagine that in a dark-ages fantasy setting, and involving every. Single. Possible law of physics and magic you can imagine. How likely it is that someone in that world, with real intelligence and charisma to influence other people, will actually entertain the idea of that same "crazy" person and research seriously on it? ... Yeah.
Most wouldn't touch an old magical artifact with a 500 foot pole unless they could profit from it for a lifetime's worth of sovereigns... Isn't that right, Varric? Maybe we should have left that thaig alone in DA2... Time will tell now. It's too late to regret it.
@@ammygamer YES!
@@RoseKeely Ok they were married, that's a similar point.
No she didn't because Solas started the rebellion because of Mythal death so she couldn't possibly have been part of it.
Possible but very unlikely.
As a big fan of the dragon age series and sorta a lore buff of it the second I read the title I very much thought ‘ya don’t say?’ Cause the chantry’s problem is kinda sorta a humongous plot point up there with the blight throughout the entire series.
@@donas1284 ik all that tho? Didn’t have much issue with the statement just said it seemed a bit redundant and for the love of god it’s Tevinter
Well done Saria, you chose a damn difficult topic this time lol.
My take...
There does seem a lot of parallels between our religions and ones from the game.
I don't think we'll ever get a concrete answer on whether the maker exits or not as Bioware have said many times it the one question they will not answer, which is damn frustrating but i kind of understand.
The only first hand evidence we have is from Corypheus " I have seen the the throne of the gods and it was empty " for example and if you side with the Templar's, you find what amount to Cory's diaries his own record of the Magisters Sidreal breach of the golden city.
Again no mention of the Maker only " the darkness " as he calls it.
I think if the Maker exists s/he does not dwell in the Golden/Black City.
Yeah I agree. I think they wasted Corypheus as a character. He could have been used more to to explore the concept of what the Golden City is, the Maker, the Old Gods and the origin of the Blight.
Instead he was reduced to merely setting up Solas.
@@antiochus87 I mean, what better twist that all the evils in the world being the sin of elves from the past?
@@pugdad2555 Well the elves are persecuted or slaves, so that seems to be like kicking them while they're down. Hopefully things will be more nuanced than that.
Personally I prefer they either spread the blame, have evil gods (kinda similar to what they're doing), have small elite create the evils if they human or elf made (I.e. not allow elves to be blamed as a group after all governments do a lot of crap that normal citizenslike you or I have no say in).
I think the trope "man grew proud" is an old, tired and lazy trope (e.g. how the explain the creation of the blight). It might work as standard in-universe lie reasons, but it there should always be a lot more to it. They wasted the opportunity to do something like that with Corypheus.
@@pugdad2555 not really? Humans are pretty fucked up without any help of other races after all
@@antiochus87 The Architect isn't dead, so there's still hope!
Sadly, as we now know, Absolution couldn't even get the Imperium's views on blood magic correct.
I honestly think Andraste was Flemiths original form. Mythal came to her and merged her essence with Andraste and she was able to survive her betrayal.
I mean the motifs are all there in the Chantry's old depictions of Andraste, the 3 horns/3 that are one.
I believe that Andraste was a Anwaren mage, and in her life, what she sang to was the spirit who joined with her and taught her magic. One of the spirits that riddle you as you try to get her ashes talks about how she summoned terrible weather and caused crops to burn in front of her army.
I believe that Corypheus demonstrates that Tiventor mages did physically get past the veil. However, it isn't conclusive that they became the first Darkspawn just that they were turned into powerful ones. They managed to get through the veil which means that their action took place after Dreadwolf's creation of it, and likely after at least one of the blights which would demonstrate that no, they did not create the darkspawn. I'd also add that given the complex life cycle of the darkspawn, I don't think they spontaneously came into existence from any sort of action or curse or what have you. I'm confident that we haven't been given the real answer to that mystery.
I love the scene in the game that happens when the inquisition was just formed and your character walks into the fight between a mage and templar in front the chantry. After Cullen diffuses the situation you are confronted by chancellor Roderick.
My favorite response, which sums up my personal beliefs about the chantry, is when you character responds to Roderick: "If the proper authority hadn't completely failed, we wouldn't be in this situation."
That line sums up the Chantry in a nutshell for me. Suffice to say that Vivienne getting the nomination for Divine is my least favorite ending.
Originally they were planning to have the option for the Inquisitor to become the Divine. That could have really upset the table depending on your character and their beliefs!
As it is I find the choice of Divine to be underwhelming (but Vivienne is my least favourite too). Origins approached things in a far more interesting way in my opinion, such as who you could betray and how you could choose the king or queen.
I tend to think of it as: Cass keeps the status quo, Vivian makes things even worse, and Liliana works to make things better. But even going back to origins, there was a lot corrupt and wrong with the Chantry.
@@kouusa I agree.
I find the entire way they handle the Chantry in Inquisition clumsy qnd heavy-handed. It and their faith is forced upon the player by the game. Half the comapions are true believers and many others are lapse and assumed to be believers when it comes down to it.
There are very few (if any) who are followers of other faiths or really critical of the religion.
They may criticise the Chantry but nobody questions whether the Chantry ought to exist or have such power and pre-eminence.
It worked well enough in Origins when the Chantry was something the player had limited engagement with, but when this is the central theme of the game it's like Bioware is forcing faux-Catholicism down your throat.
Where's the option where you get to really upset the table? Where can I take over the Chantry or break it up? Leliana is an improvement, but it's also an apologist approach to an institution that is inherently corrupt and authoritarian.
@@kouusa disagree, she wants radical chaotic change, Cassandra on other hand wants change but to avoid chaos. They both want change but Cassandra is more optimistic and less brutal going about it.
@@kouusa I can never understand Vivienne motivations. She wants mages to help teach in the chantry, knows that magic isn't inherently evil, and wants to do who knows what else. Meanwhile she also lives outside the circle away from abusive templars, uses her powers to kill people in the open, has an affair with some rich guy and despises any mages who even dare to utter the word freedom
Could it be very possible that Andaste is like that the same as Morrigan’s son Keiran where she was product of an old god ritual (like that of Morrigan and the Grey Warden) where when the arch demon Dumat was slain, by the Grey wardens of that time, his soul had went into that of Andraste’s mother, and from there had birthed Andraste?
Just a random pondering question that popped in my head while watching this video.
Dumat*
What's interesting is Andraste's supposed half-sister, Halliserre. The "World of Thedas" book claims that Andraste had a half-sister named Halliserre. They shared their chieftain father, however Halliserre's mother was an the chief's advisor on matters of alchemy. Mysteriously, nothing else is known about her mother.
Andraste woke up one stormy night to find Halliserre following lights into the woods. Something unknown happened within the woods that changed Andraste physically and mentally. Halliserre was found dead in a burned clearing, having suffered wounds beyond weapons, while fires sparked throughout the forest. Andraste was found pale but alive, uncertain of what she had seen, and developed a sickness of the lungs that would prevent her from bearing children for a decade. Whatever happened to Halliserre is unknown, but the Ciriane tribe pointed to the similarities to the Blight. It's possible that this encounter only came about because of Andraste's or Halliserre herself's connection to the Blight as an Old God Baby.
I was thinking the same, It lines up too cause the first blight ended and she was born. Which would explain why everyone thinks she's the makers chosen.
Andraste ashes can cure people. So there's definitely something holy there.
I vaguely remember a reaction from companion or npc more likely a dwarf commenting it might just be lyrium infused ashes. He felt a significant amount of lyrium in the temple.
@@rumigraciea8216
Alot of mysteries in this world, old gods, Lyrium, elves. Been a decade since the last dragon age and still not seen gameplay of dread wolf
What's so relatable about the Chantry, is that it has so many parallels with the real-life Christian Church.
Andraste's Message & Sacrifice - Jesus' Message and Sacrifice.
The Chantry turning that message into a tool to instill both fear & order in the masses to gain power & influence - Same with the Chruch.
Slight alterations of original texts, rules and restrictions, political influences - All the same. But then, most religious factions are like that.
Far as the story of The Golden City is concerned, it leaves a lot of speculation. When Corypheus claims that "there was nothing golden,
only dead whispers", and the biggest revelation, "I have seen the throne of the gods, and it was EMPTY!" All implies the Maker's tale is likely a lie.
It lends credence to the theory that it is all a fabrication of the former Elven God Pantheon. But of course, the Chantry will never believe that.
Because if their story of the Maker is shattered, so too is their authority status. And all sorts of new rebellions would rise up all over Thedas.
Mother Giselle, respectfully, tries to put a positive spin on all she hears. But it's still just Chantry rhetoric. Although some of the things she says
have a good message to them. "Has the state of the world not taught you the folly of fighting too many battles at once?" An admirable viewpoint.
Regardless of the Chantry's partially corrupt status, it's still a necessity in Thedas to maintain a sense of order.
And whatever role it might play in the upcoming Dreadwolf, if so, its fate just might be on the line.
I'd be shocked if Solas didn't have some hand in the Chantry, he's a lying liar who lies after all.
He’s tricky, but I would be surprised if Solas actually did have anything to do with the Chantry.
Warrior or Mage? Andraste was an Arcane Warrior and solo'ed the Imperium armys with her buffs
was looking for something else when I fell in the Dragon Age lore rabbit hole, your summary of everything is amazing! Please keep up the great work
Dragon age inquisition introduce me to this franchise and it's so amazing that it has so much lore and so many details❤
I doubt the Evanuris can be considered as "simply great mages". First, because the elven population as a whole was also made of great mages so to support their claims of being divine, they would need something more than just great powers.
Also, the greatest of mages don't come back from the dead like Mythal did.
Beside, the Fade and Thedas were one at their time and the Fade act and create from one's will so even normal elves at the time could likely create things out of thin air.
"Also, the greatest of mages don't come back from the dead like Mythal did."
Or did they? Who else do we know that comes back every so often, often in the shape of a Dragon?
@@masterdude9419 you mean, the witch posessed by the ghost of a ancient elven goddess?
@efaristi9737 No, I mean she(Mythall/Flemeth) IS an Elven goddess.
The other beings I am referring to are the Archdemons.
My theory:
While Flemeth was locked away by the other Evanuris, Solas created the Veil, splitting the Evanuris from their soul-selves, except for Mythal who was imprisoned. That's how she alone escaped their fate.
When this happened, I think the rest of the Evanuris became Archdemons, causing the Blights to begin.
@@masterdude9419 Mythal was killed, not imprisoned and it's only a theory that the Evanuris are the Old Gods, nothing confirmed it so far.
Also, since the archdemons simply transfer their essence into a tainted soulless host once their body is destroyed, i wouldn't really call that coming back from the dead.
I think the Evanuris created the Taint from the Black City and infected the Magisters when they infiltred it. I think the Evanuris are still there.
honestly, i really love that there is no straight answer whether the Maker exists and who Andraste was and that different countries/cultures have different views on it (just like in real world!). I don't think its a problem, imo it kinda gives depth to the world, which you can explore and explore and still not find answers to all your questions.
btw my inquisitor was skeptical about everything but always trying to do her best for the people
This is the way I prefer it too. It leaves a lot of room for player interpretation.
I would agree, if the writers had *also* left the truth of the Elven and Dwarven faiths mostly a mystery. They didn't do that, so now it just feels cowardly, and a little cheap.
I remember a piece of dialog between Cole and solas that mentioned the maker and it said he exist but is very far awa.
Sure, which is basically what the Chantry preaches. Validating fantasy-Xtiantiy after invalidating all the other existent faiths. (I'm sorry if this sounds snippy, I'm not pissy. Just a little sad)
@@MsIvalane And weird thing about dragon age faith is that there all technically real.
Waiting for DA to announce that Flemeth was Andraste.
🤯 that would be crazy. Though the stories about Flemeth doesn’t go back that far from the games thus far, I would be interested in how this ties in
I mean... probably not Flemeth herself. It seems to me that Flemeth's story leading up to her meeting Mythal is probably mostly true the way she tells it.
But I find it incredibly obvious that Andraste was another vessel of Mythal. The background of betrayal, the weird circumstances surrounding her half-sister's death, Tevinter's insistence that she was a mage and, of course, the single-spiked crown.
I feel like you basically missed the entire point behind the Maker and the Chantry in the narrative of Dragon Age.
The Maker is literally supposed to be the concept of Faith itself, Bioware has gone on record that they will never confirm or deny his existence within the setting as it would defeat the point of him. That aside the main thrust of things for "the maker needing to redeem himself" doesn't make a lot of sense in the lore. According to story the Maker straight up left Thedas after Andraste was burned at the stake, the Chantry believes the only way to bring him back and redeem the world is to spread the word of the Chantry and show their penance for the sins of man. Whether or not this is true is ultimately left up to faith.
As for the Chantry itself, it is the other half of this equation. The essential idea being "God is good, but people are flawed." Both sides of the Black and White divide are filtering the story through their own bias and there are bits that both sides get right like the fact that the Magisters really did bring the Blight back with them from the fade. Both are the end result of a thousand years of drift, political bias, and lost or intentionally destroyed information.
"God is good, but people are flawed." People are flawed, but the Maker is worse.
@@jorvach9874 how? How is the Maker who we don’t even know if he exists is worse than say the Elven Gods who were brutal brain washing slave lords who messed around with the Blight, or the Tervinter Old Gods who demand blood sacrifice and convinced their high priests to go into the fade and bring the Blight back with them? What crime has the maker actually committed? Can you prove it was even the maker at fault?
sorry, don't think i missed that point, I'm very aware that bioware wants to leave that concept for faith.
however, inquisition kinda changed that don't you think?
@@sarialue Not really. Mostly the same. Besides feels more like you're attempting to argue the Maker is culpable for the crimes Chantry which I don't think really makes much sense. That's like sueing someone who built a bridge 1000 years ago rather than the people in charge of maintaining that bridge.
It is so strange to me that big events even in real life can be completely forgotten or changed to the point that nothing of the original remains.
That being said the chantry changing details and removing elves from chantry history is all you need to know that most or all of the stuff is twisted and warped in their teachings.
Just reading the title I can hear my dad (who I got hooked on the Warden btw and told him the repercussions of each choice in later games and lore hidden I codex entries) talking about the Chantry
Me:I dont think they tell the entire truth kinda like our Catholic church
Him: really you dont say
Sounds like my father too. He's very critical to anything related to religious institutions.
This was an excellent video on this. I am very interested to see what the next round of lore from the video games and books gives us.
I get the sense that both the south and teventers are right. History is commonly twisted to whatever the believers want, maybe Andraste was a magic swordsman, possibly common at that time but lost its lure after the chant of light was changed and is now a lost ability. The two sides probably took what they wanted out of the legend and threw away what remained, this is actually really common especially in cults, and thus the Teventors could say she was a mage and those of southern Thedis could say she was a warrior, and both would be correct.
It hasn’t been shown in game yet but in one culture warriors will go through a ritual to make a bond with a spirit that allows them to use magic from the fade without being a mage themselves so Andraste was likely not a mage but a warrior who bonded with whatever the maker is to perform actions that normally only mages could do
Didn't the Avvar in JoH talk about that?
Makes sense considering Andraste was Alamarri/Avvar.
@@givensurname1296 it was the avvar I was thinking about
Crazy thing is we do find that the white chantry was horrifyingly corrupt. The magic must serve man, not rule over them is taken out of proportion. It simply states that magic can not be the reason as to why a person gets out of control which namely addresses the use of blood magic. Publicly speaking, both Chantries shun the use of blood magic, of course in the Imperium its more tolerated than anywhere else. However it also addresses how mages should be treated because the fear of magic should also not be the reason why non mages discriminate against mages which is considered to be worse according to both Andraste (being Andraste never rebelled for mages to be locked up) and the faith itself specifically states magic should not rule man in any shape or form. Of course the White Chantry will never admit this but this is the key component that led to the Mage-Templar War and why Divine Justinea V was going to address before her untimely death.
Another one is the abuses of the Right of Tranquility. At best it was supposed to be only used for mages that just can not follow magic must serve man, not rule over them line although execution would be much much better. Instead it was used willingly whereas, as far as I know, the Imperium just executes anyone known to get out of line. Not only that, the Seekers of Truth was formed by a mage in which the White Chantry conveniently chooses to ignore. This puts the White Chantry in a really bad position because the reality is the Black Chantry, for all of the Imperium’s faults, is probably closer to the truth than the White Chantry.
I play an elf who is definitely NOT Andrastian!
Very informative as always Saria!
This makes me want a prequel where we either play as Andraste and shape history as we see fit or as a pc that follows Andraste during her exploits. I just see potential there.
all we know about the maker, is what cole said that the maker is "far away"
There is clearly a good part of what the chantry teaches that is plainly false. They do insist that the Maker made the Veil which we now know isnt true.
Mages were placed in Circles because mages brought the blight.
Im ok with there not being a definitive answer for the Maker. Having "Faith" is belief without proof after all.
What bothers me though is the amount of proof against it we are given in Inquisition. The way things are looking, it's like the workings of the world have less to do with the Maker and more to do with the Elves.
But I do recall a DA: Inquisition interview with David Gaiter saying "Could you say for certain that you werent the herald of Andraste? That the hand of god did not in fact pick you to play this role? If the answer to that is no then thats what we intended."
So I think their intentions in regards to Andrastian religion is more about having blind faith rather than proving or disproving it.
It would surprise no one if andraste was a mage all along. in inquisition you can uncover the story af an avvaar leader "tyrdda bright axe" who supposedly had a glqoing weapon. this was interpreted as "glowing axe" but in truth, the weapin was a mage staff all along. So a tribe leader who liberated her people turns out to be a mage? If it is in fact the case for andraste, she certainly wouldn't be the only one
Have you done a video, or are you planning a video, on the black city in the fade? I'm curious if there is any credibility to the theory that it is the Dalish city that was destroyed.
Also, saying Sandal is not the Maker in disguise is straight up blasphemy
I will be doing a video that covers about the Veil, that would have the Black City in it!
Enchantment!
lmao that ending caught me off guard
Happy Dragon Age Day! Thanks for the video. My character believes more of the elven pantheon. Respectful about the maker to those who believe but is more into multiple higher powers than single omnipotent power.
I liked to think that I was pretty knowledgeable on Dragon Age lore, but your videos have humbled me!
That elf is probably Shartan. Andraste is based of three famus female religious and fierce figures Mary mother of god, Joan of Arch and Boudica the Iceni Queen. There are also traces of other female characters like Ruth from the Bible since she is humble and kind and so on and so on...
The punch at the end killed me 🤣
I 100 percent think Andraste was a magic user, whether the magic was a product of her powerful faith drawing magic from the fade similar to a seeker, or she was a natural born mage I think makes little difference. She used magic regardless.
Ok... An exalted march is needed on this channel!!
AYO??
@@sarialue It's a Joke !!🙃 But inside the Lore I do believe on the Holiness of Andraste.
The Chantry, lying?! Perish the thought.
Wasn’t there an arcane warrior in origins that was a fighter mage so what if andraste was that
You are speaking of Arcane Warrior specialization. You get that from a phactory in the ruined temple when you go to get the Dalish elves add. So it the spirit of the last Arcane Warrior but it's an elve spirit. So in order for andraste to be an Arcane Warrior she would have had to learn that from the elves. Wich mite have happened who knows. But Arcane Warrior specialization has a elven based origin. Theres no living arcane warriors around until you unlock it and make someone one.
"I have seen the throne of the gods, and it was empty." Corypheus, Dragon Age Inquisition
I think that clears the "identity of Maker" as the only known survivor of the original magistrates who entered Golden City is implying there is no Maker and he wants to get back to the fade to become Maker himself.
The Andrastian faith was not born yet- so they probably would not find the Maker because they didn't know what he was.
But again, there are so many parallels to disprove the Maker, hopefully bioware will sort that part of the lore out, or not LOL
I mean, unless the entire Fade is the Makers Bosom (thanks, Hawke) they wouldn’t really know his form.
1. As a guy who enjoys magic, I'm not a fan of the chantry's treatment of mages.
2. As a lover of polytheism and dragons, and given that I criticize monotheistic and organized religions altogether, by principle I'm not a fan.
Happy Dragon Age Day!
Wow glad I found this channel
welcome!!
"I've killed priests before, and another priest sold me an indulgence for the killings, so don't think I fear you or your Church. There's no sin that can't be bought off, no pardon that can't be purchased." Vagabond by Bernard Cornwell
I documented the instances of destroying chantry buildings in the games. It is still a running theme. Not only can every chantry building be destroyed,Denerim via Chronicles, but every chapel can be tainted by bloodshed as well.
I think we need to talk about how convenient it is that the person who claims Maferath surrendered Andraste to Tevinter is the guy who stood most to benefit from the allegation. And how sus that is.
After he makes that claim he starts a conflict that divided the Andrastean kingdom. Which was to Tevinter's benefit. It also kept his own people who bought into the maker worship from overthrowing him and he scapegoats someone who they consider an enemy for her death. Again, nobody but Tevinter benefited from that.
The maker is probably some misinterpretation of what Andraste actually believed in. The current belief system was spread by Drakkon. Not Andraste. Everything we know about Andrasteanism comes from people who lived at least a hundred years after her death. Kinda like Jesus.
Great video
Another parallel can be drawn between Andrasteism and Christianity in the way that the Chantry split between the Northern and Southern empires.
Here sixth-centuryish the Christian church was centered in Constantinople, the capital of the Greek speaking Eastern Roman empire (later Byzantium). Then one day a poet was translating an important verse into Latin for consumers in the western centers, and discovered that there was a void in the rhythm of his translation that didn't gel for him.
The verse in question spoke of the veneration "Of the Father, and the Son" to which the poet added something like "And of the Holy Spirit".
Cue the Eastern and Western clergy holding several councils and debates over the merit of the new verse with the end result that the Church split along the language divide to form the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Churches, the leaders of which subsequently excommunicated each other. And didn't patch up their relationship until the Crusades a thousand years later.
Just an odd and maybe strange observation but listening to your voice in this video or it may be my ears that are failing ... but you sound a lot like Scout Harding ! especially when you speak a little slower like at the start of the video. When you speak faster you cant here it as much. Just an observation 😅
Absolutely insane theory no one will think is true after watching this video: What if Lelianna is a reincarnation of Andraste?
It is possible as she had that experience with a rosé blooming on a bush that was dead for years and if you kill her in dragon age origins she’ll return as a spirit and I believe it was mentioned a few times Andraste was a red head but is often depicted as bald in statues
I think she's a descendant, rather than a reincarnation.
I think the point of Andraste-ism is to mirror the players own struggle with “belief” or perhaps a better way of saying it is our own “uncertainty”. While as our characters we learn and come to know as we go the creation of certain aspects of the world, the reasons for certain events, or why society and cultures are the way they are…. We will never know the creation of the world or the true reason why we exist… because that’s not up to a narrator to tell us… it’s up to us to find that meaning or that purpose.
If the “maker” is defined as real… then it takes away from the RPG aspect as the narrator and creator of your own story within thedas, because then “the maker” is the narrator of the story.
But as a nebulous “what if” uncertain possible explanation…. It becomes up to the player weather a god or creator is real to the character. It mimics faith.
That’s what all religion or cults in real world is… it’s based on “belief”, not certainty.
So it’s quite cool to mimic the experience in the game.
As far as andraste’s story mimicking real world religion… I would say it’s not so much important about which real world religion it’s mimicking… but more so the wide range of displays of faith from person to person and what it means to them and how it interacts with their life and their nature.
There are wonderful believers of abdraste, and there are tyrants that use the political power and hiarchy a religion like that grants. There are those that use their faith to set aside differences and those that use it as a way to reinforce mistrust, or justify acts of cruelty.
Those are universal responses across all religions of the world. And I think that’s the focus. It’s not bashing religion… it’s highlighting the problems that follow organizations of faith
I've always wondered about that codex entry on mages that says that some people who believe they are their tribe's holy people or shamans turn out to be unaware mages. There's even a gift you can find that's a partially burned book that posits that Andraste was actually magical. It seemed a whole lot like foreshadowing to me... (can find the abovementioned info in Dragon Age: Origins)
I'm not entirely sure what the problem here is. The Chantry lied, knowingly or otherwise, and a lot of what they do is to maintain authority, not unlike (to not say Catholicism as has been stated a billion times before me) the Faith of the Seven from A Song of Ice and Fire, a clear influence on early Dragon Age. I don't really see them lying or anything like that as a flaw of the writing as much as I do see it as part of the setting.
As for the Maker's existence, I'm not really sure I want an answer. The team has (at least at first, could be a different team at the helm now) said they won't have a clear answer for thematic reasons. I'm not sure if that still holds true, but I hope it does. The themes of faith and the doubt thereof are far more interesting (to me) than any genuine answer that could be provided.
As for my own current inquisitor, almost definitely not a believer. He worshipped the Stone through and through.
I'm still curious what exactly caused the darkspawn. If the golden city is just an old elven city in the fade then how did some tevinter mages entering it turn them into darkspawn. Were they cursed by some remnants of elf mages? Is it just the result of the fade corrupting non elves? Is it something involving spirits and demons?
So are we just ignoring the Quest for the Urn in Dragon Age Origins?
man, considering the inspiration for it, I'm not that surprised
well before ol' wolfy trapped his kin, the fade was just apart of the world so stong enough will even the Evanuris could create stuff as all dreams can create in the fade, maybe not something out of nothing but then you throw in the titan's who seem to be able to create space the "maker" is likely not real as such but a few beings who appear as such to unknowing ppl
also the golden city is a prison for the Evanuris so if the seat of the maker was their maybe a warden? who left. As we know a character that has seen the throne of god and found it empty
intresting to think about
Yeah, the southern chantry can call upon an exalted march, where they give their army the religious green card to commit horrendous acts. In the end, Andraste might just have been a person, much like our own characters. Just someone trying their best, later deified our original cause no longer resembling the current message.
Elven gods are basically very powerful ancient mages. So Maker might be THE VERY FIRST mage (firstborn created by pure magic powers) that has ever existed. In ancient times when magic was gift which no one could wield those people were reverd as gods (as Solas has explained), then more people attained ability to wield magic (as it was sipped through the Veil) mages were more common. But many hundreds of years has passed and people forgot who the Maker was, that he was a phsiscal being just like no one linked Solas who also is mage to being Fen'Harel.
DA:O actually gives the whole jig away if you pay close attention to what is written and what is said in the tomb
I always had wanted us to be able to disband the chantry in Inquisition or at least have us be able to do what they originally planned where our character can become divine and even if your a male that was going to be an option but you would just need to have more reputation which I feel like them getting rid of that and having it to be either Liliana or Cassandra was kind of a letdown
I haven't played in about a year (mostly due to just being busy and my old gaming computer dieing and needing replaced), but I *knew* there was something fishy with the Chantry.
And I play a mage. ^.^
Wild pothead theory: Andraste was an elf like Solas: an Original Elven Mage. And not only that, she was Mythal herself, went and got involved with a human and died setting herself free to possess Flemeth.
Just knowing the way BioWare tends to work, I always operate under the assumption that all religions are misconceptions and all seemingly supernatural stuff in any of their non-licensed games has a natural explanation (as in, natural to the world, and not created by a god; so there can be magic, but it's just as normal as gravity), and there is never, ever, ever a supernatural god, and atheists/skeptics are always smarter than everyone else.
There's no god, my dear liberal.
But do not worry, your kind will be eradicated from the world under communism, as the plague of idealism will be finally extirpated and materialism should reign triumphantly.
I wonder what would really happen if they spread the chant all over the world. Damn I loved the Golden City lore and all that stuff
Probably nothing. Even if there was a Maker it clearly doesn't resign in the golden city anymore
Before watching your video I will say my theory which is that Andraste is Flemeth
alright fine, andraste is an arcane warrior or a knight enchanter let's just leave it there
Interesting point, if Andraste was indeed born the same year as the first blight ended, could she have had the soul of an old god and that would be the reason for whatever powers she might have had?
It always seemed to me like BioWare started the series out presenting the Chant of Light and Andraste as fact, but then changed somewhere along the way to cast doubt on all of it. And now they seem to be leaning toward the elven gods, which had always been presented as foolish myths, or at least highly exaggerated stories.
They never stated it as fact. Even in dragon age origins you learn not to believe everything you hear. There are some characters as Wynn who describe you lore and add „it is only what chantry says“.
Elven gods were out of picture only because till dragon age 3 you were surrounded by human lore and dailish were 5 minutes episode.
Dailish elf origin in dragon age origins is still lore accurate up to this day with mirror and underground statues.
And devs specifically mentioned that they aren’t going to explain everything as it was in truth like question of maker because they want players to make their own believes.
@@Drezdenez They never stated it as fact, but they implied it. The intro seemed more like an explanation of how things got to that point in Thedas. Also, lore about Andraste indicated that she was genuinely blessed and that the Maker did intercede on her behalf.
Right, it's belief in Thedas, but when you present it in a game intro, that more of a message from the writers to the player.
Nah, the elvhen gods were described in Origins. Even their legends sounded like garbage at the time. Like Elgar'nan for example. Not an actual god. His legend is that he was created by the Sun and the Earth, and eventually he threw the Sun down into the Earth until Mythal was born from the Earth's tears that made the oceans. So even their own creation stories don't portray them as deities.
No, they said they won't answer if the Maker exists or not. And even that statement is in doubt nowadays. But there are certain things presented as truth in the games.
@@BelieveIt1051 into gives immersive lore background to the players who have no idea about the world. The official story by chantry is proper just because it was what 90% of ingame inhabitants believe. So you get the same base as they have. All those deep things players know now are as vtmb players know everything about Cain and vampirism but it isn’t something what people living in game universe know.
I think there was some general idea of world background but some details were created by devs much later like titans. You have no hint about titans existence till DAI and I that suggests they were made up by devs much later after creating world background for Dragon Age Origins.
Not sure if they stick to idea about elven gods as they are now originally.
Interesting video. I agree with you on a lot of it.
Andraste's identity I see like history where historical information is limited and religious and political groups manipulate or change it to suit their purposes. I have to say, I think other fantasy worlds have handled this unreliable narrator and conflicting stories on gods and in-universe historical figures far better (e.g. The Elder Scrolls, A Song of Ice and Fire). Part of this is how monolithic the Orlesian Chantry is.
The Chantry is a major problem from a storytelling perspective in the games, and especially in Inquisition I think it was handled very poorly.
It is too similar to the Medieval Catholic Church, it was forced on the player, with very limited ability to affect change or even question its powers of belief. Because it's so vague, it remains the only faith not really spiritually questioned as you pointed out.
Also because it's forced on the player and the player's inability to undermine or question it, and the sheer amount of Andrastian characters forced upon the player, this implies an agenda. It comes across as at least tacit support for state religion, theocracy and the historical crusades and inquisitions, which were... questionable at the very least.
Is that not the point of the story? Like you can choose too not be religious or even follow the Dalish pantheon but you need the chantry to rally the people fast enough too stop the world from falling apart. You even find out that you are not Divine near the end of the game, I dont see that as support for state religion its just the reality of the situation.
she could have just been a knight enchanter and doing so was both mage and warrior lol
I love your videos, saria. You always have good information, good visuals, and are pleasant to listen to. I have some well-intentioned concrit, though: I do wish you'd be more precise with your language. Some of these phrases make no sense. "her liberty and even confidence throughout the maker's existence", "Tevinter was responsible for the deliverance of a seemingly innocent cause" etc. You're using words that I don't think mean what you intend. It's a trend I've noticed in most of your videos. Maybe get a proofreader for your scripts?
ahh yes, i have a very hard time writing, and sometimes putting my thoughts down for a video does get mushed together.
i would love for me to get a proofreader for my scripts, thank you & I will look into some good resources!
@@sarialue Great. :)
The maker is a nug. I've seen the visions.
Ok, all due respect, but there is a *lot* of bias here. First and foremost, I’m unwilling to take either the Tevinter or Orlesian Chantry’s words as to the nature of Andraste. Both have axes to grind, and are attempting to further their own causes through doctrine. However, if I were forced at gunpoint to choose between which of the two I’d believe, I’d say the Orlesian Chantry. Because while the Orlesian’s are hopelessly corrupt in the modern day, they were founded by genuine believers. The Tevinter Chantry was founded as a cold blooded way for those that Andraste was trying to overthrow to maintain their power through a changing political landscape. It allowed them to maintain power by claiming divine right to rule from the very woman they murdered. The only way they’re telling the truth about Andraste being a mage is if she actually was one, which as far as I know has never been conclusively confirmed or denied. If she wasn’t a mage, they’d absolutely lie through their teeth to claim that she was. Second, the Mage Circles were not actually the idea of the Orlesian Chantry. They were the brainchild of the mages who served in the Chantry, as they were tired of dealing with people who simultaneously feared them and disrespected them. Yes, they became a tool of oppression, but it is important to recognize that that was not the original intent. Third, the entire point behind the Andrastian faith is that the Maker has turned his back on the world. Andraste was the one exception, and through her, he offered the chance for redemption. Her death was the end for the hope of a quick redemption. The Maker will not return to the world until all have joined themselves in their belief in him. Until then, he continues his policy of apathy. Whether he is real or not is besides the point. If he is real, he would not intervene in worldly affairs, if he is false, he couldn’t. That’s what makes Lelliana such a radical. She believes the Maker, who shouldn’t care about the world at all, is speaking to her. Fourth and finally, the Evanuris were far more than simply powerful mages. Certainly that was their starting point, but just as clearly they found some way to put themselves beyond all competition from anyone who was not also one of the Evanuris.
I personally think the links between the Chantry and Catholicism is overemphasized. Absolutely there are similarities, as the Chantry was certainly heavily influenced the Catholic Church, but I don’t think even the creators of Dragon Age realize just how different it is from it’s inspiration. And no, it’s not simply that women are in positions of power. The entire basis of the Andrastian faith is fundamentally different from that of Christianity. In Christianity God never truly lost faith in us. God never denied us access to Heaven entirely. God never stopped trying to find a way for us to achieve redemption. In Andrastianism the Maker completely gave up on his creations, only giving them another chance because one person gave him hope that their redemption was not impossible. The difference in the fundamental values that imparts are very different. God does not hate the sinner for sin. The Maker very much does. In Christianity, you spread the word of God because other people deserve to hear that no matter what there will always be someone who loves them. In Andrastianism you spread the word of the Maker because otherwise there will never be a redemption. The similarities in action between the Catholic Church and the Chantry can be attributed to the inevitable corruption and agenda that comes with an organization. Whether the organization forms around a faith, a government, or an ideology, corruption is an inevitability.
More parallels:
Black-White split reflects the Orthodox-Catholic split. That would make current Tevinter the Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire. Black Divine the Ecumenical Patriarch. That makes the Qun the Islam analogue. Yeah it's basically a 1:1. IRL their analogues were all heavily involved in politics, but there are very few religions where this wasn't the case. Nowdays, while Catholic priests are touching kids, the latter orthodox churches are notorious for being corrupt unrepentant tools of the state.
I think the point we are suppose to take about the Tevinter is that they've changed and diluted the creed to a point where their Chantry is pro-magic, simply because it suits the people in power. The same people who are shown to be irredeemable scumbags until Dorian is introduced. I think Andraste was anti-magic, as anyone oppressed by Tevinter would reasonably be. Bioware can still pull a rug under us though.
Peace.
Imagine my shock
Perfect ending
I have played through the three games numerous times and at first the Chantry seemed like an analog for the catholic church being used to make veiled commentary in the narrative. While i could probably still make that case, i have moved to a more nuanced position. I'll elaborate. If we compare the practice of either manipulating or out right changing information to maintain or gain power and influence across our own planet, i submit that all religion runs afoul of this due to the "human" component. It was penned by a "person" who, unlike what we expect of a god, is prone to things like greed, lust, ambition, desire, etc... Considering this, I assume everyone is lying in service of supporting their views or conversely of denigrating opposing beliefs. We do have the advantage of Solas to garner information from but we see him prone to the same pitfalls i just mentioned and therefore must be viewed skeptically. We find out that Solas created the veil and in doing so separated the realm into two. This gave the Dragon Age universe a material realm and the fade. Magic power in the material world is derived from the fade which is a realm of dream that can manifest anything using thought as we see done and do ourselves as the player character. The inhabitants of the fade are spirits and demons which on a base level can be viewed as two sides of the same coin. That being "good and bad" or "light and dark" or "righteous and evil" or even "virtue and sin". The demons we see in-game are all aspects of greed, lust, pride, etc... These ideas seem to point to a paradigm in which concepts become material and embody that concept. It is said that the world was created with the makers words. My theory is that the maker was a powerful entity formed from an aspect gaining awareness that existed completely in the "primordial" fade. It is my supposition that the elves are decedents of such beings. We meet "justice" and this tells us that the aspects that inhabit the fade are not simply "bad" but could rather be considered amoral since they embody their given aspect completely. We certainly see more "evil" things derived from there but i would argue its the darkness of the material realms inhabitants reflected and not inherently "bad" by virtue. That leads me to believe that something along the lines of "creation", "existence" or a similar concept was most likely responsible for starting the paradigm prior to what we see. Where that came from is unknowable as the starting point given sees the maker already existing in a formless green. It would probably fit the best that the maker was a dragon since the oldest beings we learn of are the dragons and elves but in a realm that one can freely change their outward form, it would be folly to base anything on appearance. As for Chantry doctrine, it is an ever evolving set of lies, exaggerations, embellishments and misrepresentations. I believe this to be true in Tevinter as well. As for Solas, I think that he is an ascended elf who came to embody the concept of deceit or betrayal or some other concept that is specifically related to lies and usery. He will do anything to save his people and he will use lies to deceive before betraying anyone to obtain his goal.
Just some ideas knocking around. Keep it up. Good stuff
Hail to the algorithm gods!
You said that the southern Chantry has to be the one that's wrong in thinking Andraste was a mage or not. But wouldn't it fit in as Tevinter propaganda that only a mage could've done that and that magic-less nonmages couldn't possibly do something like she did? Just a thought...
I always role play a deeply religious Andrastian that fully believes he was chosen to be hee herald.
Religion and politics are sometimes hard to separate because cultural is often intertwined with Religion so the people governing would often be influenced by there Religion/cultural. My old professor said it was a cycle.
Joan of Arc was a woman of great indomitable faith, as well as Andraste.🎉❤💕👍
Most of the saints look like what Solas and ancient elven murals describe the elven pantheon.
I appreciate the Dragon Age content, I just wish content creators wouldn't try to jazz up their script without really understanding the language they're using. So much doesn't actually make sense, and it seems like the same person writes the script for multiple different DA content creators as its not the first time i've sat through a video that makes no sense lol
What if andraste is a child of the old gods like moragens son was/is?
Reads title: *shocked pikachu face*
*reads the title*
NOOOOOOOO.....no fucking way....next you'll be telling me the "Herald of Andraste" was just saved due to random chance and that it had nothing to do with Andraste at all.... *pfft*