To be clear variety is very important, and you shouldn't try to exclusively play payload, or any other game mode for that matter. Try out different maps and game modes, maybe you'll like them!
There is a slight problem in that due to how payload is designed to be quite the opposite of symmetrical, it often ends up giving favoritism towards a single team. Like how in competitive TF2, the Blu team is commonly EXPECTED to win. Of course they do get around that by having both teams play attack, AND defense and the team that wins on attack fastest (or in the case of a Red team advantage, gets the farthest while on Blu) is the winner. I do actually like the idea of "A stalemate is just X team winning". In A/D or Payload that means the Red Team, in KOTH it means whichever team has the point. In 5CP it means nobody is winning. Of course though, we all know the REAL top dog is TDM_Turbine.
I really quite like the idea of the cart not giving ammo. Having a steamrolling team to have to leave the cart for ammo kits or spawnrooms gives the defending team a chance to set up a proper defense at the next point, rather than desperately throwing themselves at the cart. Not to mention, it incentivizes engineer on offense, as dispensers and sentries would be more important. Plus, it solves the short circuit problem. All things considered, very cool video! Your stuff is really well edited, and a treat to watch. I'm excited to see how this channel grows and changes!
Exactly, it would be better if it was never there from the start because of how used to it players (including myself) have become over all the years of playing the game. But TF2 has changed a lot over this time so maybe it was necessary at launch. Thanks for the kind words as well.
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 The healing should stay so that there's *some* incentive to fight near the cart, such as dealing with incoming chip damage easily, but breaks to grab Ammo become mandatory instead of just hugging the cart 24/7 for everything you need. Or, y'know, playing well enough to never run out of Ammo from enemies' corpses.
tbh, it took me so long to realise why I loved Paladins so much more than overwatch and quite frankly it's because of my love for tf2 payload... Paladins is more akin to the whimsy that was tf2 in its hey day compared to overwatch.
@@batatanna There literally used to be a bug that rendered the game unplayable if you had a large friendliest. I have no respect for Paladins for a variety of reasons, but that one is pretty darn high.
Ammo aside, I think the cart should still give metal. If it doesn't, it makes Engi on Blu much less playable, and you don't want to single out a class as useless on either side in any game mode.
Though not with the short circuit, at least not with it active. At least if you have to swap between the short circuit and something else, it gives a break in your anime fighting energy ball spam
I actually never thought someone would pass down brawl stars in their tf2 gamemode video. Ever. Not to mention about the other games as well- but you proved me wrong and I give major props for that! This is just a pure solid video major props!
Eh I like it, you don't need to tell me that most people who play Brawl Stars are either children or people in foreign countries, but I have fun playing it. I have my gripes with Supercell though haha.
While I do like payload a lot, something to note about payload's pacing is that it makes steamrolling as cart heavy a very, very strong strat. The cart doesn't move any faster than a revved up heavy can move, and thanks to the dispenser provides the highest HP and DPS class with indestructible source of healing and ammo. If the incremental progress was slightly faster that it outpaced Heavy at most cap rates (while also losing ground much quicker) I think it'd be more balanced and potentially more dynamic.
Cart heavy has always been a dumb "strategy" and it's annoying that payload pretty much incentivizes it, which stunts the growth of a lot of people trying to play or main heavy.
Splatoon's Tower Control mode is another interesting variant that... I don't think many games actually have. Unlike most class-based shooters, Splatoon doesn't have *any* asymmetrical attack vs. defend game modes. All of its game modes are symmetrical, so it takes a different approach to payload, similar to the one found on some TF2 community maps like Waste. At the start of the game, the payload spawns in the center of the map. Either team can capture the payload by covering its top surface in ink and having one of their players stand on top of it. Once it's been captured, it starts moving towards the enemy spawn But what sets it apart from standard payload is that while you're defending, you can steal the payload from the other team, at which point your team becomes the attacking team And the game still has a timer, in which case the winner is decided by who got closest to the opponent's spawn. Splatoon also has an interesting anti-steamroll mechanic that also doubles as one of the most interesting comeback mechanics I've ever seen. In Splatoon, you build meter for your ult by covering terrain in ink. The further ahead you are, the more terrain you'll have covered in ink, effectively shutting off future opportunities to build meter. In other words, the longer you steamroll for, the more likely you are to run out of steam, but once you get the ball rolling on a comeback, the game gives you ways to keep that momentum going... ... Except this really applies more to modes like Turf Wars (cover more terrain in ink than the enemy team), Clam Blitz (collect clams from across the map and throw them into a basket in the enemy base) and Splat Zones (King of the Hill). You're only going to be inking a small portion of the map in Tower Control, and steamrolls in Rainmaker (CTF) can take less than 30 seconds
I REALLY want to see that video on CP_Steel. Hating on Steel is a dead horse at this point. I also prefer those Chokepoint heavy maps like Dustbowl, 2Fort, and Gold Rush
Great video, P-Bean, always nice seeing your stuff! In defense of 5CP, I feel like it's a great way for two teams to "play fair" and compete straightforwardly, but like you say, too often it can become a grinding , almost attritional slugfest whereas Payload really encourages and requires everyone to engage with the objectives outside of relentlessly killing each other better than the other team. I also really like Gravelpit. Non-5CP control point maps in general are underrated, more could be done with them.
4:04 spot on, had one game that just draggen on and on, both teams just this sweaty and eager to win and after a 4th stalemate we all just started to goof around in a really wholesome way :D I love playing tf2 sometimes for these random moments.
My favorite "Payload rece" type mode actually comes from Splatoon. I don't remember the mode's name but it's basically payload where both teams can move the load. The load is actually a platform where you have to have more of your team on it than the enemies. The platform doesn't give any advantage other than having the high ground and it definitely being covered in your team's ink, so you move better on it. It has the advantage of being dynamic, since it's always moving, but it also means it's not really asymmetrical. And yeah steamrolls are still possible, but if you're really good, you can recover from an almost impossible situation, and it's really satisfying.
there is a new comp 6s test feature going around for 5cp, makes the timer after a point is capped 3 mins to reduce long stalemates, 5cp really only works with 6s maybe prolander, and most of the maps are designed around 6s so it makes sense they dont work very well in casual or highlander. koth is great for comp because it is fast, while having clear attacking and defending teams depending on who has the cap.
I also really like king of the hill, especially as engineer. The smaller concise maps are interesting to play on, and it is also like bomb defusal, where teams can shift between attacking and defending.
Have you heard of the splattoon payload? Both teams use the same payload that goes back and forth and the team that was able to push it the furthest into enemy territory when time runs out wins.
i personally don’t like payload mode in most games, but tf2 is one of the exceptions imo. While not my favorite mode in the game, it’s a good mode and I personally think tf2 did it better than the other games. i also kinda agree that 5cp is the least fun mode in tf2
5CP is either really fun or terrible, mostly terrible. It’s most fun when Instead of getting locked into stalemates the teams push eachother back and forth
One of, if not my favorite, objective modes is KotH in Gears of 3 and beyond. The "hill" is worth 180 points and you're trying to score *I don't remember how many points* and the points are constantly counting down, even when the hill hasn't been captured. Once the hill reaches around 20 points the game announces where the next hill be located, so you get this dynamic of the currently capping team having to maintain control over the current hill while also trying to gain control of the area where the next hill will be. There's a lot of back and forth, but the score limit is low enough that drawn out games don't happen.I might just be biased though, because nothing gets the endorphins flowing like wall bouncing onto the hill and getting a quad with the gnasher.
@@nobleradical2158 honestly I barely remember the rules of hard point, you're probably right though. Although that first started in blops 1, right? Koth has been in gears since 2008
These videos are great fun to watch. You've really got something unique nailed down here. As for the thesis of the video, I agree with a good deal of the points here. Personally I find both CTF and Payload can get a bit tired, but I do enjoy the variety Payload maps can offer. I still find myself playing Upward when I have nothing else to do. I also like the dissection you've done here - it lets me better appreciate the game as I play it.
One mode that shares a lot of the benefits of Payload that I'd love to see more of is Domination. Like Koth, but with 3-5 points that can be capped at any time. Closest TF2 has is CP_Standin, one of my favourite maps in the game. Dynamic objectives, asymmetric gameplay where each team has a chance to attack and defend, and the whole thing feels like a land-war with the area(s) your team controls acting as a stronghold in need of defending while others go out and attack.
6:46 - Speaking of Dynamic Objectives, I think this is kind of why I like Refinery missions in Deep Rock Galactic. Since you are building your own objective, and the spot where the objective changes, it's never quite the same situation. Different from Payload, since the pipelines you defend don't move, but you create where they go, ergo where problems could show up and how your defense happens.
Keep putting out bangers like this and you'll make it big. Your video format remind me a lot of FUNKe's analysis videos, which is is also great content.
I think it be cool if someone made a version of attack/defend that literally has land as an objective. As soon as more land is taken, like in a WWI scenario, it gives the attacking team a distinct advantage by placing their spawn closer and closer to the enemy.
13:48 I'm generally more or less slightly in favour of it being a good thing, but there is one type of map design that often has "important"(other than last, it could also mean a pushback of red's spawn and an advancement of blu's) payload points that appears every now and then and it is utterly degenerate and straight up unbreakable without ungodly coordination or being significantly stronger than the other team(provided they didn't let you take the point for free), and I like to call it "the dip". It is the one seen in Dustbowl 2nd stage at Blu's gate, Snowycoast 3rd, with lighter variations that aren't as bad in Borneo last(though this one is still tough for multiple other factors), Barnblitz 2nd and last, among others. This is when the attacking team has to push through a very "enforced" chokepoint(or otherwise take an extremely big detour that would require a full recommitment rather than being versatile through either entrance), with very little space to look up, while the defending team also gets free height advantage that is utterly inaccessible to the attacking team without pushing through that point first. The design is really plays out itself. Defenders can choose to drop in to chase/majorly interrupt attackers and camp out on the high ground where attackers cannot do the reverse. Snipers can actually get a few free peeks without the enemy team's knowledge because you look through your eyes first and not your feet, etc. As said, past a certain skill level of the defenders(and not much at all), it can be quite annoying to push through.
In Dirty Bomb you can damage the payload with explosives, which stops it from progressing until and engineer character fixes it. This helps with the steam roll problem. Buying time for respawnin teammates. Great vid
One thing that stops steamrolls are timed ‘obstacles’ for the cart. The cart just got through a checkpoint and now it needs to wait for an opening gate. Giving the defending team time to recoup from the attackers push.
i really love payload as a game mode . i find other gamemode in any multiplayer games mostly are iteration on deathmatch or just over complicated for it own detriment . what i love about payload is the following :- -clear objective. -dynamic map because of the moving objective. -promote team play. -every point the payload get stopped in can become some sort of tower defense . keeping the match interesting all way through . what i dislike about payload is the following :- -some clear chokepoints . this is not fault of the game mode itself but the map designer for drawing line in the sand making like the last point really hard to push . making you spend majority of your time having fights in the same areas . edit: i made this comment before finishing the video .
Thing worth to mention. In Dirty Bomb the EV (payload) can be destroyed by defending team but when destroyed the attacking team has to repair it to able to push it again
Its a lot of good fun to play engineer on payload, especially witj the Jag. The constantly moving frontline means you need to move your buildings aswell. Providing health and ammo at the front line, keeping the teleporters up and safe and defending a retreat-position with a sentry, on offense and defense
Enlisted has a very clever implementation of "taking land" instead of taking points. The engineer class in that game can build a spawn point basically anywhere (except the obvious places like control points and enemy respawns), which allows for things like "encirclements", flanks and most importantly - making sizable progress without capturing the point. There is also a classical payload mode, but because the game is set during WW2, instead of cartoonish bomb in a minecart there is an armoured train on straight railways, and because of that, there is less change in the surroundings. Still a nice game mode though.
You can see it in the map design: Every *meter* of Upward is a small defensive structure for the REDs, while on Gorge it's just 5 control points connected by boring corridors.
1:56 Oh my absolute lord, it seems as if you have misspelt the word ‘quick’! This is absolutely hilarious! I cannot believe you would be so foolish to make such a minor spelling mistake! Hoho!
What if we took a Payload map and instead of a payload we put a single big 60 second capture point at the end of it to create a weird hybrid mode. First, the attacking team has to actually get all the way through the map to the end, and then hold that frontline long enough to cap.
0:33 my guy i don't even play tf2. That being said i have played enough shooters to already know what payload is. As for why I clicked on the video It's just fun to watch people talk about games in general, especially since most of the time it applies to other games as well. It also helps that tf2 is just generally a silly game that also has a shit ton of nuances to it that makes it interesting to hear people talk about even if you don't actually play it. Like watching any of the spiffing brit's videos for example, there is no way in hell even half of his players play all of those games, but it's still interesting to watch someone figure out and explain how to break them.
That part about using the payload as cover unlocked a core memory in me. I was playing medic in what I think was gold rush? Not sure. On the last checkpoint, your team had to push the payload into this warehouse area. I think the rest of the team were fighting off elsewhere so I had to push the cart alone and the payload was just enough to cover me from an engineer's sentry. I'd like to think Medic's regen and the cart's healing were just enough to save me that day.
What if after the cart reaches a checkpoint, it would stop moving and giving heath for a while. The attacking team would have to defend the cart from the defending team until it gets moving again. Wouldn't really work for TF2 but it might work in another game.
TF2 has so maps like Barblitz and Snowcoast that have something like that but it can't be for every point and it's map reliant, I like your idea though!
I like being on the attacking team of payload because I can play without needing to try too much. Most games make the payload heal anyone pushing and it’s also a form of cover. When it comes to defending I need to think a little bit because I don’t have those benefits and on top of them defends usually have a longer respawn timer so I need to plan more.
Incremental progress is why i love payload. Look at overwatches 2CP (assault) game mode. That gameplay is legitimately depressing because half of the lobby is feeling completely powerless for the majority of the match when defense is winning (even if they're just scraping by)
My primary issue with payload in this game is the map design. Too many of the maps give Sniper's insane sightlines like Upward, Badwater, and Goldrush. If one of the teams has a 5k hour Sniper main, it's over. In which case I'd rather play 5cp where there is a surplus of flanks to get to said Sniper's. It's really just picking your poison. On 5cp, you have a chance of playing a game that always ends in a stalemate. In payload, there's a chance some sweaty Sniper main is going to roll over your team because of the questionable map design that favors long sightlines and having a sentry firmly placed up the Sniper's ass making flanking impossible.
Some maps make use of things like backwards ramps (the cart needs to be continually pushed for a section of track or else it will immediately fall back) and delayed map modifications (like the turntable between points 1 and 2 on barnblitz) which can help slow down the steamroll effect. In fact, Barnblitz is probably the best designed standard payload map in terms of balance- the closer to last the cart gets, the more the map geography favors the defenders, and each individual point is the most strongly fortified with cover and restricted walkways where the cap points are, with potential staging grounds for blu taking advantage of the same cover that keeps red safe.
I agree that Barnblitz does fit this, but the last point and the second point are way too hard to push. Needs to be a balance. I would say that Pier does it the best.
personally I enjoy attack defense and payload the same, this does a good job explaining payload, but for attack defense my reasoning more heavily revolves around the amoutn of time you have to prepare in attack defense is absurdly higher than payload, which leads to more organized pushes/defenses, hence making it more fun (for me) to win a battle, because both teams were organized in some sense, aswell as, in attack defense, there is a clear cut line of "enemy ground" and "friendly ground" you know where your start crossing into enemy territory, which gives you more time to prepare for the worst and be on edge. Plus it makes it feel cool to actively acknowledge that your defending your homeland
Hot take: capture the flag is the best objective-based multiplayer game for movement shooters, and the maps shouldn't have camping in those settings because movement, and capturing the objective by staying still is a strange concept in the genre.
I think the other thing that the Dynamic Objective does is getting players (mostly on Defence) to change where they're playing on the map as the front line moves. As Uncle Dane pointed out in his CTF Video about Sniper, gamemodes with Symetrical team balance (KoTH, CTF) generally make the sniper stand in the same places all the time, whereas in Payload or even 5CP, theres so many different places Sniper can stand in the map, which wax and wane in effectiveness.
I'm not saying 5CP is perfect, but I do enjoy how dynamic it is. One team may find an opening and go on the offensive, while the other team respawns, finds a foothold defensively and starts opening doors to push out of. Unlike payload or A/D, both teams must react to the current game state, and switch to an offensive or defensive playstyle accordingly.
I think the reason maps feel so different has a lot to do with aesthetics. Steel is extremely diverse, Egypt is very unique, etc. It'd be a lot harder to tell these maps apart if they were all dev textures.
Yo what the heck. This vid was just randomly recommended to me, and i'm actually in it?! In Mountain Lab i'm the medic ubering you and the pink demo. Small world, I suppose
I feel like the realization and reality of what I have done are finally going to haunt me after all these years and the consequences won't be going east on me, but yes I agree that payload is quite a good game mode
I honestly don't remember payload giving ammo in the early days. I stopped playing around 2012, so it might be a change that was made after I have stopped playing
For me the stalemates in 5 CP are actually the fun part. Fighting tooth and nail for the points, being pushed back, reclaiming territory. Thats what makes the gamemode fun. Just rolling over the enemy team with no mercy is fun once in a while but it gets boring really fast.
One key not about steamrolling in payload is that the cart has a capped speed so even the stompiest steamroll can feel like it takes a while to get over with. Not saying to uncap speed but some stomps can feel like sitting around waiting for the other team to win.
my favorite gamemode is king of the hill. Mainly because koth is the closest to a pure official DM match we'll ever get in a team fortress 2. I don't like to go to a certain point in the map to find people and ignore the other areas, that's why i favor koth the most.
To be clear variety is very important, and you shouldn't try to exclusively play payload, or any other game mode for that matter.
Try out different maps and game modes, maybe you'll like them!
Lmao quite RUclips bro your voice isn’t meant for this
stop calling class based shooters hero shooters
You play Brawl stars?
@@eduardpeeterlemming i was wondering about the same thing
I fucking love dustbowl
I love payload because everyone can feel useful just by pushing the cart
Yeah when everything is going terrible just pick heavy and sit on the cart. You'll be doing something useful
There is a slight problem in that due to how payload is designed to be quite the opposite of symmetrical, it often ends up giving favoritism towards a single team. Like how in competitive TF2, the Blu team is commonly EXPECTED to win. Of course they do get around that by having both teams play attack, AND defense and the team that wins on attack fastest (or in the case of a Red team advantage, gets the farthest while on Blu) is the winner.
I do actually like the idea of "A stalemate is just X team winning". In A/D or Payload that means the Red Team, in KOTH it means whichever team has the point. In 5CP it means nobody is winning.
Of course though, we all know the REAL top dog is TDM_Turbine.
Yeah, TF2 is not really designed to have balanced matches, it is designed to avoid stalemates, though.
>competitive tf2
Lmfao thats like trying to have chicken icecream
@@qwertyiuwg4uwtwthn "thats like trying to have chicken icecream" 🤓
I really quite like the idea of the cart not giving ammo. Having a steamrolling team to have to leave the cart for ammo kits or spawnrooms gives the defending team a chance to set up a proper defense at the next point, rather than desperately throwing themselves at the cart. Not to mention, it incentivizes engineer on offense, as dispensers and sentries would be more important. Plus, it solves the short circuit problem.
All things considered, very cool video! Your stuff is really well edited, and a treat to watch. I'm excited to see how this channel grows and changes!
Exactly, it would be better if it was never there from the start because of how used to it players (including myself) have become over all the years of playing the game. But TF2 has changed a lot over this time so maybe it was necessary at launch.
Thanks for the kind words as well.
The last thing offense needs is any kind of nerf. One crutchineer on defense is enough to singlehandedly guarantee a win if the team isn't braindead.
@@DimentiosLoyalest What's a "crutchineer"?
awful idea whats next no healing?
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 The healing should stay so that there's *some* incentive to fight near the cart, such as dealing with incoming chip damage easily, but breaks to grab Ammo become mandatory instead of just hugging the cart 24/7 for everything you need. Or, y'know, playing well enough to never run out of Ammo from enemies' corpses.
tbh, it took me so long to realise why I loved Paladins so much more than overwatch and quite frankly it's because of my love for tf2 payload... Paladins is more akin to the whimsy that was tf2 in its hey day compared to overwatch.
I would like Paladinz if they knew how to balance their game and had better net code
@@batatanna There literally used to be a bug that rendered the game unplayable if you had a large friendliest. I have no respect for Paladins for a variety of reasons, but that one is pretty darn high.
Ammo aside, I think the cart should still give metal. If it doesn't, it makes Engi on Blu much less playable, and you don't want to single out a class as useless on either side in any game mode.
Though not with the short circuit, at least not with it active. At least if you have to swap between the short circuit and something else, it gives a break in your anime fighting energy ball spam
*laughing as a scout main*
6:41 I love how it looks like the pyro suddenly equipped an smg
I actually never thought someone would pass down brawl stars in their tf2 gamemode video. Ever. Not to mention about the other games as well- but you proved me wrong and I give major props for that! This is just a pure solid video major props!
Eh I like it, you don't need to tell me that most people who play Brawl Stars are either children or people in foreign countries, but I have fun playing it. I have my gripes with Supercell though haha.
@@P-Bean Will you ever make a video on them? It's weird how no one talks about the company and their work
10:42 holy fuckign based finally someone else recognizes the masterful and complex gameplay of gravel pit
While I do like payload a lot, something to note about payload's pacing is that it makes steamrolling as cart heavy a very, very strong strat. The cart doesn't move any faster than a revved up heavy can move, and thanks to the dispenser provides the highest HP and DPS class with indestructible source of healing and ammo. If the incremental progress was slightly faster that it outpaced Heavy at most cap rates (while also losing ground much quicker) I think it'd be more balanced and potentially more dynamic.
Cart heavy has always been a dumb "strategy" and it's annoying that payload pretty much incentivizes it, which stunts the growth of a lot of people trying to play or main heavy.
Payload have some of the biggest sightlines ever, just go sniper
Splatoon's Tower Control mode is another interesting variant that... I don't think many games actually have.
Unlike most class-based shooters, Splatoon doesn't have *any* asymmetrical attack vs. defend game modes. All of its game modes are symmetrical, so it takes a different approach to payload, similar to the one found on some TF2 community maps like Waste.
At the start of the game, the payload spawns in the center of the map. Either team can capture the payload by covering its top surface in ink and having one of their players stand on top of it. Once it's been captured, it starts moving towards the enemy spawn
But what sets it apart from standard payload is that while you're defending, you can steal the payload from the other team, at which point your team becomes the attacking team
And the game still has a timer, in which case the winner is decided by who got closest to the opponent's spawn.
Splatoon also has an interesting anti-steamroll mechanic that also doubles as one of the most interesting comeback mechanics I've ever seen. In Splatoon, you build meter for your ult by covering terrain in ink. The further ahead you are, the more terrain you'll have covered in ink, effectively shutting off future opportunities to build meter.
In other words, the longer you steamroll for, the more likely you are to run out of steam, but once you get the ball rolling on a comeback, the game gives you ways to keep that momentum going...
... Except this really applies more to modes like Turf Wars (cover more terrain in ink than the enemy team), Clam Blitz (collect clams from across the map and throw them into a basket in the enemy base) and Splat Zones (King of the Hill). You're only going to be inking a small portion of the map in Tower Control, and steamrolls in Rainmaker (CTF) can take less than 30 seconds
I REALLY want to see that video on CP_Steel.
Hating on Steel is a dead horse at this point. I also prefer those Chokepoint heavy maps like Dustbowl, 2Fort, and Gold Rush
I hope to make it because it's the only "centralized" cp map and I wish there were more like it
I just get lost on cp_steel tbh
Great video, P-Bean, always nice seeing your stuff! In defense of 5CP, I feel like it's a great way for two teams to "play fair" and compete straightforwardly, but like you say, too often it can become a grinding , almost attritional slugfest whereas Payload really encourages and requires everyone to engage with the objectives outside of relentlessly killing each other better than the other team.
I also really like Gravelpit. Non-5CP control point maps in general are underrated, more could be done with them.
Brawl Stars Payload was a bit flawed because it doesn't have 3 dimensional play, but the games like TF2 ans Overwatch did it excellently!
For sure, it also seriously limited playstyles from my experience playing it.
@@P-Bean There was also a very closed meta, and some bugs that made a certain brawler (Bibi) very good.
i think Brawl Stars sucks
@@hoodcate I respect your opinion, but really, did anyone ask?
@@piplupfan71 do i have to wait for someone to ask?
4:04 spot on, had one game that just draggen on and on, both teams just this sweaty and eager to win and after a 4th stalemate we all just started to goof around in a really wholesome way :D
I love playing tf2 sometimes for these random moments.
My favorite "Payload rece" type mode actually comes from Splatoon. I don't remember the mode's name but it's basically payload where both teams can move the load. The load is actually a platform where you have to have more of your team on it than the enemies. The platform doesn't give any advantage other than having the high ground and it definitely being covered in your team's ink, so you move better on it. It has the advantage of being dynamic, since it's always moving, but it also means it's not really asymmetrical. And yeah steamrolls are still possible, but if you're really good, you can recover from an almost impossible situation, and it's really satisfying.
Y'know, I didn't really need to see Engineer with Terry Bogard's legs today but boy howdy, did you deliver.
there is a new comp 6s test feature going around for 5cp, makes the timer after a point is capped 3 mins to reduce long stalemates, 5cp really only works with 6s maybe prolander, and most of the maps are designed around 6s so it makes sense they dont work very well in casual or highlander. koth is great for comp because it is fast, while having clear attacking and defending teams depending on who has the cap.
I'd really like to see how the 3 minute timer goes.
Payload has most of communitys favourite maps
Very true
I also really like king of the hill, especially as engineer. The smaller concise maps are interesting to play on, and it is also like bomb defusal, where teams can shift between attacking and defending.
Have you heard of the splattoon payload? Both teams use the same payload that goes back and forth and the team that was able to push it the furthest into enemy territory when time runs out wins.
Oh I actually haven't, I'll check it out.
i personally don’t like payload mode in most games, but tf2 is one of the exceptions imo. While not my favorite mode in the game, it’s a good mode and I personally think tf2 did it better than the other games.
i also kinda agree that 5cp is the least fun mode in tf2
5CP is either really fun or terrible, mostly terrible. It’s most fun when Instead of getting locked into stalemates the teams push eachother back and forth
One of, if not my favorite, objective modes is KotH in Gears of 3 and beyond. The "hill" is worth 180 points and you're trying to score *I don't remember how many points* and the points are constantly counting down, even when the hill hasn't been captured. Once the hill reaches around 20 points the game announces where the next hill be located, so you get this dynamic of the currently capping team having to maintain control over the current hill while also trying to gain control of the area where the next hill will be. There's a lot of back and forth, but the score limit is low enough that drawn out games don't happen.I might just be biased though, because nothing gets the endorphins flowing like wall bouncing onto the hill and getting a quad with the gnasher.
Isn’t that called hardpoint?
@@nobleradical2158 honestly I barely remember the rules of hard point, you're probably right though. Although that first started in blops 1, right? Koth has been in gears since 2008
These videos are great fun to watch. You've really got something unique nailed down here.
As for the thesis of the video, I agree with a good deal of the points here. Personally I find both CTF and Payload can get a bit tired, but I do enjoy the variety Payload maps can offer. I still find myself playing Upward when I have nothing else to do. I also like the dissection you've done here - it lets me better appreciate the game as I play it.
One mode that shares a lot of the benefits of Payload that I'd love to see more of is Domination. Like Koth, but with 3-5 points that can be capped at any time. Closest TF2 has is CP_Standin, one of my favourite maps in the game.
Dynamic objectives, asymmetric gameplay where each team has a chance to attack and defend, and the whole thing feels like a land-war with the area(s) your team controls acting as a stronghold in need of defending while others go out and attack.
TF2C made me really like that mode, I wish there were more maps to it tho (and not 4-team like hydro).
@@ShakerSilver 4 team arena best mode idc
This mode is very prominent in Enlisted. It's really hard and intense, but it's more interesting than KotH for sure.
6:46 - Speaking of Dynamic Objectives, I think this is kind of why I like Refinery missions in Deep Rock Galactic. Since you are building your own objective, and the spot where the objective changes, it's never quite the same situation. Different from Payload, since the pipelines you defend don't move, but you create where they go, ergo where problems could show up and how your defense happens.
very underated youtuber!
Damn this is probably the best channel I've discovered in a while. Good content this.
when theres 0:02 on the clock but youre team gets wiped out and they cap another point resetting the clock
Keep putting out bangers like this and you'll make it big. Your video format remind me a lot of FUNKe's analysis videos, which is is also great content.
Wow the editing in this video is fantastic! I'm calling it now, you're gonna grow like crazy.
This channel is mad underrated, I thought this is equal to a godtier commentary channel like Emplemon.
Haven't finished the video, but I agree. I can only play upward and badwater for years and never get tired of the game mode.
Your videos are such high quality, I genuinely don't understand why you don't get more views.
Great video! I really love Frontier's cart, as it's size makes it a moving fortress sometimes that allows blue to push through the many chokepoints
Love the amazing quality of this video!
Your videos aren't appreciated enough. Honestly im taken aback by how a video with such quality has less than a thousand views. What a crime.
Lemon Demon - Jaws in YT video?? Wooahhh!!! *Wojack Point*
I have played paladins and I agree, though I never had a chance for playing tf2 in a stable, sustained enviornment.
I love your videos man, keep it up, I can see this channel going places for sure
I think it be cool if someone made a version of attack/defend that literally has land as an objective. As soon as more land is taken, like in a WWI scenario, it gives the attacking team a distinct advantage by placing their spawn closer and closer to the enemy.
So basically Hydro but as one giant map?
great video, very informative plus great music choice
Thank you :)
-hold on feather master, white man has been here
-how do you know?
-video essay.
I tend to like payload maps in TF2 because of the way the maps are designed in that gamemode suits me more than the other ones
13:48 I'm generally more or less slightly in favour of it being a good thing, but there is one type of map design that often has "important"(other than last, it could also mean a pushback of red's spawn and an advancement of blu's) payload points that appears every now and then and it is utterly degenerate and straight up unbreakable without ungodly coordination or being significantly stronger than the other team(provided they didn't let you take the point for free), and I like to call it "the dip". It is the one seen in Dustbowl 2nd stage at Blu's gate, Snowycoast 3rd, with lighter variations that aren't as bad in Borneo last(though this one is still tough for multiple other factors), Barnblitz 2nd and last, among others.
This is when the attacking team has to push through a very "enforced" chokepoint(or otherwise take an extremely big detour that would require a full recommitment rather than being versatile through either entrance), with very little space to look up, while the defending team also gets free height advantage that is utterly inaccessible to the attacking team without pushing through that point first. The design is really plays out itself. Defenders can choose to drop in to chase/majorly interrupt attackers and camp out on the high ground where attackers cannot do the reverse. Snipers can actually get a few free peeks without the enemy team's knowledge because you look through your eyes first and not your feet, etc. As said, past a certain skill level of the defenders(and not much at all), it can be quite annoying to push through.
high quality video. subscribed. you must meet my high expectations in the future :)
It’s nice seeing gameplay from a pretty decent variety of classes and games, nice work
Payload feels like a journey when you're on the atacking team.
the algorithm recommended me your invisibility video, keep the sovl coming
In Dirty Bomb you can damage the payload with explosives, which stops it from progressing until and engineer character fixes it. This helps with the steam roll problem. Buying time for respawnin teammates.
Great vid
One thing that stops steamrolls are timed ‘obstacles’ for the cart. The cart just got through a checkpoint and now it needs to wait for an opening gate. Giving the defending team time to recoup from the attackers push.
Ahh yes. The new FUNKe. I'm looking forward to the upcoming videos!
Oh wow the creeper is waving :D
i really love payload as a game mode . i find other gamemode in any multiplayer games mostly are iteration on deathmatch or just over complicated for it own detriment .
what i love about payload is the following :-
-clear objective.
-dynamic map because of the moving objective.
-promote team play.
-every point the payload get stopped in can become some sort of tower defense . keeping the match interesting all way through .
what i dislike about payload is the following :-
-some clear chokepoints . this is not fault of the game mode itself but the map designer for drawing line in the sand making like the last point really hard to push . making you spend majority of your time having fights in the same areas .
edit: i made this comment before finishing the video .
Well-edited and engaging.
Thank you :)
Unrelated to the video I appreciate the use of the Nocturnal background music. It's such a good background song.
Been binging all of your videos. Great stuff! keep it up :)
Thing worth to mention. In Dirty Bomb the EV (payload) can be destroyed by defending team but when destroyed the attacking team has to repair it to able to push it again
I like it when maps stop the cart when they cap a point. This gives the defending team time to respawn and set up their defense again.
Its a lot of good fun to play engineer on payload, especially witj the Jag.
The constantly moving frontline means you need to move your buildings aswell.
Providing health and ammo at the front line, keeping the teleporters up and safe and defending a retreat-position with a sentry, on offense and defense
Loved the editing in this
Enlisted has a very clever implementation of "taking land" instead of taking points. The engineer class in that game can build a spawn point basically anywhere (except the obvious places like control points and enemy respawns), which allows for things like "encirclements", flanks and most importantly - making sizable progress without capturing the point. There is also a classical payload mode, but because the game is set during WW2, instead of cartoonish bomb in a minecart there is an armoured train on straight railways, and because of that, there is less change in the surroundings. Still a nice game mode though.
You can see it in the map design: Every *meter* of Upward is a small defensive structure for the REDs, while on Gorge it's just 5 control points connected by boring corridors.
I think it's generally agreed that 5gorge is the worst 5cp map.
1:56 Oh my absolute lord, it seems as if you have misspelt the word ‘quick’! This is absolutely hilarious! I cannot believe you would be so foolish to make such a minor spelling mistake! Hoho!
Your editing is getting really good. Nice job
WTF why does that creeper have his torch out like that P-Bean?!?!?!
What if we took a Payload map and instead of a payload we put a single big 60 second capture point at the end of it to create a weird hybrid mode. First, the attacking team has to actually get all the way through the map to the end, and then hold that frontline long enough to cap.
0:33 my guy i don't even play tf2. That being said i have played enough shooters to already know what payload is. As for why I clicked on the video It's just fun to watch people talk about games in general, especially since most of the time it applies to other games as well. It also helps that tf2 is just generally a silly game that also has a shit ton of nuances to it that makes it interesting to hear people talk about even if you don't actually play it. Like watching any of the spiffing brit's videos for example, there is no way in hell even half of his players play all of those games, but it's still interesting to watch someone figure out and explain how to break them.
I like payload but it's so overplayed and people don't branch out enough
I agree, variety is important.
That part about using the payload as cover unlocked a core memory in me. I was playing medic in what I think was gold rush? Not sure. On the last checkpoint, your team had to push the payload into this warehouse area. I think the rest of the team were fighting off elsewhere so I had to push the cart alone and the payload was just enough to cover me from an engineer's sentry. I'd like to think Medic's regen and the cart's healing were just enough to save me that day.
Nothing feels better than getting that final push on the cart
What if after the cart reaches a checkpoint, it would stop moving and giving heath for a while. The attacking team would have to defend the cart from the defending team until it gets moving again. Wouldn't really work for TF2 but it might work in another game.
TF2 has so maps like Barblitz and Snowcoast that have something like that but it can't be for every point and it's map reliant,
I like your idea though!
I like being on the attacking team of payload because I can play without needing to try too much. Most games make the payload heal anyone pushing and it’s also a form of cover. When it comes to defending I need to think a little bit because I don’t have those benefits and on top of them defends usually have a longer respawn timer so I need to plan more.
Incremental progress is why i love payload.
Look at overwatches 2CP (assault) game mode. That gameplay is legitimately depressing because half of the lobby is feeling completely powerless for the majority of the match when defense is winning (even if they're just scraping by)
The brawl stars refrence, imediate like
My primary issue with payload in this game is the map design. Too many of the maps give Sniper's insane sightlines like Upward, Badwater, and Goldrush. If one of the teams has a 5k hour Sniper main, it's over. In which case I'd rather play 5cp where there is a surplus of flanks to get to said Sniper's. It's really just picking your poison. On 5cp, you have a chance of playing a game that always ends in a stalemate. In payload, there's a chance some sweaty Sniper main is going to roll over your team because of the questionable map design that favors long sightlines and having a sentry firmly placed up the Sniper's ass making flanking impossible.
Some maps make use of things like backwards ramps (the cart needs to be continually pushed for a section of track or else it will immediately fall back) and delayed map modifications (like the turntable between points 1 and 2 on barnblitz) which can help slow down the steamroll effect. In fact, Barnblitz is probably the best designed standard payload map in terms of balance- the closer to last the cart gets, the more the map geography favors the defenders, and each individual point is the most strongly fortified with cover and restricted walkways where the cap points are, with potential staging grounds for blu taking advantage of the same cover that keeps red safe.
I agree that Barnblitz does fit this, but the last point and the second point are way too hard to push. Needs to be a balance. I would say that Pier does it the best.
your editing is lovely
personally I enjoy attack defense and payload the same, this does a good job explaining payload, but for attack defense my reasoning more heavily revolves around the amoutn of time you have to prepare in attack defense is absurdly higher than payload, which leads to more organized pushes/defenses, hence making it more fun (for me) to win a battle, because both teams were organized in some sense, aswell as, in attack defense, there is a clear cut line of "enemy ground" and "friendly ground" you know where your start crossing into enemy territory, which gives you more time to prepare for the worst and be on edge. Plus it makes it feel cool to actively acknowledge that your defending your homeland
Hot take: capture the flag is the best objective-based multiplayer game for movement shooters, and the maps shouldn't have camping in those settings because movement, and capturing the objective by staying still is a strange concept in the genre.
I think the other thing that the Dynamic Objective does is getting players (mostly on Defence) to change where they're playing on the map as the front line moves. As Uncle Dane pointed out in his CTF Video about Sniper, gamemodes with Symetrical team balance (KoTH, CTF) generally make the sniper stand in the same places all the time, whereas in Payload or even 5CP, theres so many different places Sniper can stand in the map, which wax and wane in effectiveness.
Another problem with payload is that nobody likes being left with the hot potato and having to sit on the cart while the team pushes up.
I'm not saying 5CP is perfect, but I do enjoy how dynamic it is. One team may find an opening and go on the offensive, while the other team respawns, finds a foothold defensively and starts opening doors to push out of.
Unlike payload or A/D, both teams must react to the current game state, and switch to an offensive or defensive playstyle accordingly.
I think the reason maps feel so different has a lot to do with aesthetics. Steel is extremely diverse, Egypt is very unique, etc. It'd be a lot harder to tell these maps apart if they were all dev textures.
Holy shit I'm the scout at 5:37
Nice!
Yo what the heck. This vid was just randomly recommended to me, and i'm actually in it?! In Mountain Lab i'm the medic ubering you and the pink demo. Small world, I suppose
Payload is top because spy and scout cant just capture last point alone in 3 seconds when the first one gets capped
I feel like the realization and reality of what I have done are finally going to haunt me after all these years and the consequences won't be going east on me, but yes I agree that payload is quite a good game mode
pay deez nuts
And then theres splatoon who was like ; what if payload had a baby with king of the hill
Wow, this video is pretty cool!
who are you
Payload is the best gamemode but solely for Borneo, which wasn't featured at all in this video and is incredibly tragic
There's a few borneo clips in the video, but I didn't specifically talk about it.
TF2s Payload is my favorite because it always ends in some MASSIVE explosions
This video convinced me this mode is pog
I honestly don't remember payload giving ammo in the early days. I stopped playing around 2012, so it might be a change that was made after I have stopped playing
I like Steel alot because I can use piss very easily on A, C, and D. Also E, if D is still on the defensive point.
YO! love the snails house in this vid
For me the stalemates in 5 CP are actually the fun part. Fighting tooth and nail for the points, being pushed back, reclaiming territory. Thats what makes the gamemode fun. Just rolling over the enemy team with no mercy is fun once in a while but it gets boring really fast.
One key not about steamrolling in payload is that the cart has a capped speed so even the stompiest steamroll can feel like it takes a while to get over with. Not saying to uncap speed but some stomps can feel like sitting around waiting for the other team to win.
my favorite gamemode is king of the hill.
Mainly because koth is the closest to a pure official DM match we'll ever get in a team fortress 2.
I don't like to go to a certain point in the map to find people and ignore the other areas, that's why i favor koth the most.