Finally someone understands that good balance is signaled by player satisfaction, not just literal numbers. Simply put, the best kind of balancing is the one that's invisible and feels natural.
@@ethanrussow9262 it was a ww2 game where americans had a thompson and germans i think m40 or whatever popylar gun and the thompson had more powerfull Shooting sound
I like to play as demo with booties charging targe and stock bottle or some other reskin, trimping over and over again on the 2fort bridge roof to kill the snipers or anyone on the balconies really. I average about 60-80 kills before I get bored and move onto dustbowl classwars or something
As much as some people prefer the "long range-short range" trade-off for long-range classes, the existence of Jarate + Bushwacka in TF2 to cover for close-range is already terrifying. The deadly piss can make you piss your pants out.
Sniper is still a 125 health class with base speed and no defensive capabilities. Unless you're a medic/spy(without embassador) or have terrible aim. You can consistently best sniper even while pissed
@@zathegame One shot after switching to jarate, throwing, switching to melee and swinging in melee range Compared to kill time of shotguns, you have to slip up in order to loose the encounter or simply be attacked first (in which case any class can kill you anyway)
The classic is a superior sniper rifle above all others, can you name any other sniper rifle that makes your killed enemies not only not mad, but olso respect you?
@@rompevuevitos222 yeah but they can also just quickscope headshot you close range. Yeah its skillful on their end but it still sucks to be on the other end of it when you might’ve had to work hard to even flank him on some maps.
21:56 Actually, in the 'Meet the Sniper' trailer, towards the end just before he aims at the camera, you can see that when he pulls the bolt back, he immediately shoves another round in the chamber. He's just that good lol.
a little annoyed that the map he chose to demonstrate idiot players walking into sightlines was fucking wutville. like there is no sightline to avoid. the entire map is a sightline.
@@JaxontheOkay Honestly trying to argue with sniper players in any game is like trying to argue with that little cousin who cheats during board games and always tries to change the rules and throws a tantrum saying youre playing wrong whenever you come close to beating them.
One thing that I think makes the Kraber balanced in Titanfall 2 is every player’s super high movement speed and low time to kill. Most people (even non kraber mains) heavily respect and admire good kraber mains in the community. It’s because they know that using the kraber while flying at mach 10 through the air after using their grapple then hitting their shot on an enemy doing the same thing is no easy feat. This also coupled with the map design turning large open spaces that would normally be impenetrable sight lines into Titan infested death traps, allows Titanfall to be in the unique position to not have to nerf the kraber (and by extension all other sniper rifles) by making them slow and cumbersome weapons like in other games. I know you probably don’t have time to talk about it but I think the kraber is a really good counter example to Sniper’s stock in Team Fortress.
Just because I have respect for folk who use the kraber doesn't mean I have to like them using it lol. It still feels cheaper than getting a one shot kill with the Mastiff, which in itself feels like about the same level of difficulty. The one thing I don't have any respect for is the CAR being used by like a G10 player.
Kraber sucked ass on console and that muzzle velocity and drop is excessive for the average ranges and move speed of the game, i love Titanfall 2 but balanced it is not
The Kraber's balance is kinda shit, honestly: it's one of those guns that are just capped by fire rate and mag size because every Kraber player picks the quickscope and fast reload attachments and instantly nukes whoever gets in their line of sight, since there's not really a game cap to the player's own aim and the gun's TTK is strictly dictated by it. Sure, one could argue "just don't die and move better lmao lol", but it's one of the examples of snipers being too good at close range and movement does nothing if the player's aim can compensate entirely for it, which is why many people opt for higher health pools rather than movement in games like that: you cannot counter someone's good aim with your movement, but you can counter it by making them have to aim better for longer to kill you. It doesn't feel fair to get killed by a Kraber unless you actually had the chance to deal equivalent damage to that player, which more often than not isn't the case when the entire encounter is not even about who fires the first shot, since you'll still need to hit multiple while they only need to hit one. Comparing it to the Mastiff, the Mastiff is a much better option because it's a projectile shotgun with a spread and damage still annoying enough at close range that the player is not only aiming down sights on a projectile weapon, they're also actively seeking headshots and creating the weird situation where the shotgun is the weapon where the player is going for the headshots to kill people in one hit, effectively making the player need to aim more with a shotgun than with a sniper rifle. I mean, I think that last part already sums up why Kraber is a poorly-balanced gun and Kraber mains just pretend using it is some kind of incredible feat of self-sacrifice to cope with using an unfair gun.
Something I must say that I feel isn't worth mentioning in this video is skill ceiling. As if the developers didn't expect players to get this good, and a class such as a sniper where you can be the most useless, where you miss and the enemy doesn't know you exist so you aren't even a good distraction, to the potential to hard carry with near limitless hit-scan instant kill attacks. They now know this, but changing a class 100% means they'll have to change other aspects, mainly balancing other classes, so they just settled.
I do kinda feel like Sniper in TF2 can be reworked without needing to do anything to the other classes since he just basically has no interaction with anyone else. Since his interaction basically goes: He either does not exist, or he instantly kills you without warning.
An Idea for Snipers that I've always thought was kind of neat is the idea of reverse damage fall-off similar to the medic Crossbow in TF2. I feel like this could reduce the danger of snipers in close range however still keep him decent in longer ranges, I also reckon this can discourage people hacking to an extent as it limits people walking around and being upclose and instantly headshotting poeple as well as Sniper bots like in TF2.
Reverse damage falloff is good as its punishing the sniper for not positioning well enough to take advantage of their increased long range effectiveness
That would not weaken his long range game though, which is the part everyone hates, while taking away sniper's ability to play up close even if they hit the god flick. I think it is yucky and bad and stupid
@@uhohspaghettios821 People hate dying in one shot from a distance, but they hate it even more when they finally get into range and put the long-range guy at a disadvantage...Only to die anyways.
This is what I keep telling people but they all want to nerf sniper like ambassador which makes no sense, and for @uhohspaghettios sniper was made for long-ranged play, everyone complains that sniper can just delete someone up close with a headshot so equipping reverse falloff seems like the best solution ie. 120 headshot dmg dmg in cqc // 40 bodyshot (melee range) up to 50 // 150 at long range (scaled with charge up to 360 on cqc & 450 at long range) this proposed idea still keeps sniper somewhat viable in most situations but prevents any class from being killed unless they took damage prior, this incentivizes snipers to prioritize their positioning without sacrificing too much to consider the class "long range only", the complaint here is that good snipers kill "TOO FAST", so why not give people more time to kill it?
@@ED-gw9rg that’s definitely Sniper’s worst aspect to me. For years Spy was his best counter and had the power of old Dead Ringer, Ambassador and Kunai all at once and instead of nerfing that everyone just got buffed with anti-spy weapons and now that Spy is much weaker, Sniper still has the ability to deal with stuff right next to him despite having no good reason to as a long range class.
I know this is about multiplayer games and you have the most experience there, but it would have been nice if you talked about Minecraft's skeleton, especially how it not only does the exact opposite of what it's supposed to do (be a long range enemy that supports other enemies), but is *too* good at it.
It didn't even cross my mind to talk a out ranged AI or Minecraft. Thankfully the shield in Minecraft helps out with the skeleton a lot, but only when you're focusing on it and there's an easily manageable amount of them.
Depending a bit on version, for some reason... On Java, shields can be raised instantly+skeletons shoot way slower, on bedrock they fire way faster and shields take like a full second to raise. If I'm wrong, please kindly correct me.
@@existingchannel6671 You're correct about skeletons firing faster, idk about the shields though. Also, I was talking about Java skeletons in my comment, so that means the skeletons on bedrock have to be absolutely horrible to fight.
TF2 (and most other games) really need the option to alert other players about the area being under a sniper watch or something. Like we can call out for spies in TF2. Also, when I was playing cruelty squad whenever an enemy sniper spots you, it says "I see you" (and something like similar) that can be an interesting goofy mechanic to add too. The person will be paranoid and seek for cover but the sniper position won't be reveled until they fire the shot.
@@prosto_a_user he can but also means he tunnel visions himself if he stays like that. Most of the time they just dont take aim until there is a target in sight (since a quickscope is already enough anyway to oneshot anything not named soldier, demoman and heavy barring possible overhealing, none of which are threats to a sniper sitting at long range anyway)
I think a point that arch showcases in his video about sniper rifles is that despite how much the community shits on and hates sniper in tf2, he is ironically one of the most balanced renditions of a sniper rifle in video gaming. Just imagine a sniper rifle in tf2 that dealt headshot damage to the body and could do so without having to wait for a charge meter, oh and let that sniper rifle also have a secondary iron sight beside the scope. Because that’s what call of duty has and allows. It would single-handedly make the game unplayable, except even worse in that it would be officially endorsed by valve rather than the result of people using software programs to abuse sniper’s strengths.
@@rexosaurus3610 That brings up a good point actually. I used to think that sniper was OP and needed a nerf a good while back. This guy's comment that you responded to is a testament of how important map design is within tf2. Most of the most popular maps within tf2 also happen to have really bad sniper sightlines that the maps just don't give you an option to play around. Badwater is a great example of both good and terrible map design. The map plays really well all the way until last, where I've seen games where a single sniper just completely denies blu last point (keep in mind we are talking about pubs here). Badwater last is one of the most unbalanced and unfun last points I've ever played, and whenever we reach that point and there's a sniper that isn't trash, I assume that we are gonna either lose or win with overtime, the sightlines and lack of traversal to said sightlines are that bad.
As someone who mained TFC sniper and TF2 sniper -- yeah your right the TF2 sniper is balanced. The TFC sniper by comparison is broken beyond belief only matched by the medic in terms of the abuse it can deliver. Charge up your sniper dot without aiming down sights? Check. A more generous sniper dot to hit with? Check. Grenades? Triple check. All these things allowed me as a Sniper in TFC to essentially rambo my way into the enemy base and hang around snapping up kills and being an utter terror; a fully charged bodyshot would kill every class outside of heavy and soldier /w max armor -- a simple snap headshot (no charge) would kill engies, scouts and no-armored demoman. Suspect a spy is sneaking up on you? Drop a grenade to discourage him from trying, or prime your grenade and toss it just right so you can frag him. Heck you can even use the grenade to propel yourself away from danger if need be. But TF2? Yeah you'll need to pick your spots and be way more careful in hiding your sniper dot. No charging without aiming down sights, a more pixel-perfect (and thus less generous) dot and no grenades meant ramboing is out of the picture on the majority of maps now. The only thing that didn't make TFC unplayable with the Sniper class was the Medic class. Spies were a joke but the medic was to be feared cause good luck trying to hit a pro medic in the middle of his perfectly timed and angled concussion-nade jump that gave him such ludicrous speed he could fly around you twice over and still have enough momentum to b-hop like crazy.
In call of duty everyone can kill from about as far as most regular sightlines are. In tf2 long sightlines are pretty much just used by explosive classes lobbing grenades or rockets that take 2+ seconds to hit and still don't even 1 shot. Oh, and sniper.
The sniper in Splatoon 3 is a good combination Of 1. charge time. 2. lens glare 3. a lazer like in shounic's experiment (which admittedly is easier to hide than in other shooters). and most damningly: 4. a strict rage limit The game ALSO features incredible movement. All of this would make one assume that the sniper is balanced or even bad in this game, because of all these drawbacks but yet, It isn't. And it's really because of the Maps being awful. like dear god the chockepoints are so bad. there are NO flanks on quite a significant amount of maps. The only reason why it's not REALLY strogn rn is because there is a special weapon that has MORE range and kills faster
The vertical-ness of a lot of Splatoon maps is both a pro and con pros: it encourages a lot of good close fights vertical-ness works extremely well with the agile movement system cons: it's extremely difficult to counter a good team because, as you said, there are very few flanks in very few maps (often leverage places for long range have only 1 access point that is easily monitored) movement is incredible but many walls aren't climbable so if you drop down to an area surrounded by unclimbable walls, there is no retreat or way to regroup I've been absolutely slaughtered by really good sniper/long range players and I couldn't do anything about it because 1. I couldn't reach them 2. There were no routes to flank them with.
Ye... the maps are not the best... But I do think it is not really the form of the map that is the problem. (Not that you said it now. but for future discussion) Its that there is to many chokepoints... Oke i am part of the problem as a Hydra main... i do like me some Hagglefish market. but funny enough... I think that is my favorite map because of where you have to stand from your spawn. As you do not get flanked 24/7 like in Um'ami Ruins. But that is also just because I can not focus on more then 1 thing thanks to ADHD and ASD... Maybe its better if the backline spots were more open to get shot. But not that easy to physically go to as the enemy. (I am fine with getting shot at. But please give me some personal space.) That is also why i like the tent in Hagglefish Market. As it is open to get shot at but also a great spot to shoot. I am not saying no inkable walls, just make it so that to defeat the backline you have to outsmart them. And not walk 3 meter and you kill the backline...
Also, to add another thing, usually, the only way to counter a long-range player in Splatoon is with long-range, but since you can't change your weapon once you start a match and you don't know who you're fighting against until the match starts. It's especially annoying in Turf War (~60% of my 370 hours across Splatoon 2 and 3 is in a turf war, the other ~40% in Salmon run) where the most effective weapons are short-medium range for maximum ground coverage and most people go into games using them. You're lucky if your aerospray or inkbrush can even hit their feet.
One thing to note in Splatoon is that, in most cases, every frontline / midline weapon has at least one part of their kit that can deal with long-ranged opponents, be it a bomb they can throw at them to force them to drop their charge and move, or a special that can displace them for longer or even outright kill them. There are exceptions (rip brellas) but it's not always like "oh, there's a charger on the high ground, guess I don't get to play the game any more". Backlines might not have these tools (Heavy Splatling is pretty well countered by a charger in a direct fight), but it's not exactly common for your backline to be in shooting distance of the other team's backline (well, unless you're playing on Brinewater). Long-range weapons are certainly annoying on the worse maps in the game (*cough cough* Mincemeat), but on good maps like Museum, MakoMart or Flounder, there are positions you can safely get to to throw stuff at common sniper positions.
I feel titanfalls kraber is one of the best balanced guns due to the insane movement potential that all players have and the fact titans can't be one shot at All
Titans existing in game and changing the balance dynamic of guns is such a cool idea, and Titanfall being able to do that well is the sign of a great game.
Fantastic video, the editing is crazy good! Your ideas for a sniper reblance are like one-to-one to my own. I also had the thought of a glint when the sniper's crosshair is over you, and the light of sniper dots jutting out like they're being scattered.
One game that does this well which I haven’t really seen mentioned in this comment section is Garden Warfare, with the Cactus class. Cactus is balanced by the fact that, while the full clip will kill an enemy, a single bullet won’t - even on headshot. Since the game tells you where the shot that hit you was fired from, a good player will use that information to catalogue where the sniper is and either tell their team or just kill the sniper. While this may seem bad for longer ranges, especially since Deadbeard (the Zombie sniper) didn’t exist in the first game, and since the game has extremelt long sightlines, it’s balanced out by large sightlines also being a disadvantage. Since cactus uses a projectile, travel time isn’t instant. Additionally, zoom isn’t enough to view the full area of larger sightlines (discounting Camo Cactus to some extent). As for Cactus’ close-ranged, I think this is also done well. While Cactus’ primary has nothing to stop the player from using it at coose range, it is also out-DPS’d by pretty much every other weapon at close range. Potato Mines and Wall-nuts are both strong close-ranged options too - one for offense, one for defense - but both come at the cost of a resource. Since the abilities have limited use, a good cactus needs to think about whether using them for self-defense is absolutely necessary, or if the encounter can be won with her primary, especially since Tall-nuts and Potato Mines are great for team support. There’s also garlic drone, which can be useful for dealing chip damage to zombies or helping with large fights (especially far from spawn), but it has 5 health (not an exaggeration) and leaves cactus fully vulnerable - not even being able to see the environment around her - which definitely helps balance it out. In all, Cactus winds up feeling balaced - not weak enough to be unusable, but not strong enough to be dominating. oh yeah there’s also Deadbeard who is fairly well-balanced too I suppose, just less so compared to Cactus
nobody will tell their team "guys, theres a cactus camping in the back, be careful!" she will always either get ganged up on or a superbrainz finds his next victim. Its 30 dmg, not 250
This is also balanced by the fact that classes like soldier are still decent at long range, meaning the cactus actually has counterplay other than just rage switching to another sniper or a stealth class.
The main issue with snipers is that it's an expectation that an fps game will have one sniper option, if not multiple, alongside shotguns or other close range options and expect them to be balanced. To me, snipers and close range options just don't belong in the same game because the two fundementally have a different gameplay loop and even different goals in gameplay. A close range option, like say, a minigun, has an inherent motivation built in to stay close to the objective (granted there is one) and do as much area denial as possible. It's just given that you need to be close to enemies, and enemies are close together around an objective, say a control point of sorts. You go to the control point, you are bound to bump into an enemy who's close enough to make it a fair fight or even an advantageous for you. Contrast that with the long range options, like say, a bolt action sniper rifle. The latter has an inherent, built in allergy to being close to objectives because of the weaknesses that come with the neccesity to balance them. Some argue that they exist to punish bad positioning but how can you actually position well in maps that has laughably long sight lines? Not to mention the fact that everyone's favorite gamemode, payload, has an inherent sightline issue because the objective often moves along a straight rail track, thus creating big sight lines. So being on the objective is bad positioning? Snipers, in my opinion, should be restricted to more deathmatch focused games, where they can't deny the objective just with their mere existance. Yes, I deliberately ignored the skill component of a sniper playstyle because, while a bad or an average skilled sniper will not, a very good one will straight up ruin the fun for the entire enemy team single handedly.
Something I try get across a lot, is that sniper isn't good for every game. But it's engraved in gamer and game dev brains to expect a sniper in every shooter, even when a sniper may not make sense to have.
When you really stop and think about it, letting certain players start with weapons that can often kill in one shot, at ranges that the enemy can't fight back at, is a stupid idea. Why would you bother with movement, tactics, positioning, accurate follow-up shots etc when you can just shoot everyone in the back safely from 200m away
@@0lionheart Exactly. Though the TF2 provided reason not to pick sniper, is that it could be boring or not fit for your playstyle. You have plenty of fun options that outweigh the ideal of optimal effectiveness. Which, works. Not everyone picks sniper. But then of course you have the receiving end. Getting killed by someone you didn't fight, nor had the chance to 200m away, isn't fun. No if ands or buts, it's just un-fun to die like that. And fun is king above all else. Which is why stun weapons were removed from the game, because being stunned, was spectacularly un-fun. I think sniper has his place in TF2, he helps to reduce oppressive behavior over the span of certain areas and sightlines. *Though may just as well cause oppressive behavior.* While sniper in TF2 works and should stay, if there was a tier list for least sense to exist in the game, sniper would outrank everyone on that list as making the least sense in the game in regards to its mechanics.
Honestly the sniper glint thing is a really nice way to give out the snipers position without being a dead ass trail of their entire LOS, it also works really well with sight lines, as you should be able to check pretty easily if there is a sniper hiding anywhere. I also personally like descope mechanics like in halo, which let's you be able to challenge snipers a bit more by limiting their kill potential, even though you're not a direct threat. Then you also have sht like tf2 spy's ambassdaor pre-nerf that could deadass challenge a sniper cross map and 2 hit them lol. But letting players challenge to a certain degree is nice, like how an ak in CS can also one hit the sniper, although not as easily
TF2 is like the only game where I'm not a sniper main because holy shit theres something so satisfying about having one single shot and having to make it count at the longest range you've got access to.
Hey, I've been enjoying your content a lot lately, I found your channel through your "Why Does Nobody Main Heavy" video and kept watching from there. But I have to say, at 0:54 you really made me feel uncomfortable. I'm autistic, and that word fell out of scientific fashion decades ago. Saying the r slur just makes people like me feel unwelcome and hurt when we watch your content (which is a real shame, because until now I had been enjoying it thoroughly) but now I'm just really disappointed. Please quit it with the r slur.
I came in here looking for this comment as I'm on the spectrum as well. I just started watching this guy, so it's no big loss. Still, it annoys me. I personally am fine with slurs if you're, for example, reading an old book with that language aloud. But this guy is just using the r slur as an insult to a strawman he's constructed out of half understood arguments. There's no reclamation here even if he himself has mental illness.
It's funny you mention that sniper rifles should have visible white tracers, when the sniper rifle in TF2 is literally the only stock weapon that doesn't have that. What were Valve thinking?? Good vid Pat, you're good at this C:
I think some TF2 RUclipsrs make a good point when they say that Sniper's original design didn't take into account just how powerful long range, hitscan weapons can be in a game where hitscan weapons are like 90% close ranged or with damage falloff. In a game where most of the long range weapons are projectile based and not hitscan, Sniper stands out a la being a bit outdated, in the balancing aspect. Which wouldn't be bad, if he actually had penalties and hard counters that aren't other Snipers. Spy? Too unfair, they said. Here's the Razorback! Pyro? Too unfun and annoying, they said. Here's the Darwin Danger Shield. See the problem? They gave a class that SHOULD have counters like these in exchange for their power, items that give them heavy protection to these counters, thus making them trivial at best. This doesn't always apply, I know, but unless you are either a good Spy that properly hit his revolver shots or use the Ambassador, or are a Pyro ballsy enough to get into close range with the Jetpack or Detonator, you're pretty much out of luck trying to get him. And that's just his backpacks. Jarate is a good secondary, but paired with the Bushwacka? Yeah, close range vulnerability, my ass. Let's not even talk about quick scoping at close range to insta kill most light classes. All in all, Sniper needs a major re-balance.
a personal favourite example of snipers done well is the charger weapon class in splatoon. they take time to charge, and only one shot at full charge. they also get increased range through charging, but never have infinite range. You always have to play close enough to be in danger of having a bomb or special thrown into your sniping spot. it's great!
I've grown to appreciate how you NEED to gamble when facing a Charger, but the CHARGER needs to gamble, too! I recently picked up the Splatterscope, and people just love taking their Swim Speed for granted.
By balance in games it should be better named as "options" the players has for counter play. Balance exists so that the players can actually interact with each other. It not about true balance. On information and range. If you dont know where the enemy is. There is no interaction. It matter to sniper tf2 because he can change sightlines too fast making information useless. On long range weapon being strong close range. JUST MAKE IT REQUIRE SET UP.
@@linear1224 Railcoins work well at ANY distance when you're godly enough at leading coin throws, and coining is definitely a lot faster than an average setup, but yeah, more or less. Most of the coins and Railcannon's vulnerability time is in their cooldowns; the setup would be more like a start-up time (IE: Demoman has 0.7s start-up time per Sticky; in terms of weapon utilization, his mid-range damaging role is a relatively respectable can of worms compared to "click, click, and kill")
Few things can match the feeling of camping outdoors, the simplicity of it, pissing into jars and syringes to unleash at passers by. Simple pleasures in life.
I think halo does a good job with snipers. You don't spawn with one and need to find it, it has a relatively low fire rate, has tracers, and will only really kill in one shot if its a headshot
For me, my favourite examples of good and bad long ranged weapons are Apex Legends snipers and Sniper from TF2. In Apex, sniper ammo is picked up and stacked in smaller amounts, encouraging getting more ammo. Snipers also have loud noise, has a tracer and dont one shot, giving info. The snipers are also projectile and not hitscan. Because brs have the effect of anyone being anywhere it not one shotting makes it fair, imagine being oneshot because you weren't aware someone had a sniper, let alone be near you. The trade off is the sniper user can have a string close range weapon. Thats it really, but thats all you need. The snipers are great poking tools and can get picks quite easy if they're not careful, but not unfair to go against and dying to one is mostly on the targets fault not the sniper. The healing mechanic does also help. Then there's TF2 sniper. Rarely needs ammo, can oneshot most classes with a half charge, all with 3/4 and most maps are his playground and he's not balanced as if that is the case and is hitscan. The trade off is supposedly bad close range but jarate bushwacka combo stops that (if we delete one or the other the problem is fixed) and even without it the problem classes are either light or are usually under the 150 threshold by the time they got their, meaning a quick scope headshot is enough. All in all, snipers can be easily balanced on a game by game status, and is usually done so. Great examples are the Op and Awp from Valorant and CSGO, Apex snipers and other miscellaneous games i do not play. But snipers can be done horrendously, like in TF2 and Overwatch 2, with widowmaker and the sniper. Hanzo passes because even tho the hitbox is bigger then roadhog its still a somewhat slow moving projectile.
I think the most important aspect is the expectation of the game. When you play Hunt Showdown, youre EXPECTING to have death around every corner as the game's core fantasy. You play Hunt specifically for that feeling of needing to always look over your shoulder. In TF2, you play it for big movement based shotgun and rocket duels, and the sniper's existence just burns all that fun to the ground
The sniper glint mechanic is very good as it forces the sniper to not always aim down sights because then they will just be shot by somebody out of their field of view If you combine this mechanic with another mechanic which lets you see the player that killed you after you died, it will force the sniper to change positions after each kill imo this is the most fun for the sniper and non sniper
@@denizmergen418 Who said anything about running straight at them? Characters with better mobility can make more effective use of cover and take better advantage of any downtime the sniper has reloading.
@@christiancasaverdepertica18021 tf2 is not a game with cover maps are intenionaly made wide open sniper can still kill you while mobing from cover to cover 3 for a sniper to reload they should have already shot 4 sniper doesnt reload
I've also been thinking about ways that such a weapon could be balanced for a while, based on the core real life weakness of sniper weaponry being that they are almost all unwieldly. At first I thought that simply lowering the turn speed of the user would work, but then I realized that it could be circumvented via just upping mouse speed. However, I think I came up with a much better idea: your weapon turning independently of the camera. The idea is that when using a sniper rifle, the gun does not always follow your crosshair, instead taking a small amount of time to catch up with the crosshair. This would make a sniper rifle's user extremely weak to ambushes and basic movement, while making them very powerful at long range if using something like a bipod would minimize the movement time of the gun. To think of it, it would be pretty easy to implement this system into a more realistic shooter across the board, giving lighter weapons like pistols more use than just being the cheapest option.
Hm, doing this might need a little work, maybe the sniper has to set up their position for it to be usable, like for instance not being able to use the gun unless they place it down in a similar way to engineer, then when not scoped it can be in third person so you can see how only your head is able to turn quickly while the gun itself is slow to move. Another alternative is to make it to where the gun actually turns at the same speed as the camera but once placed it is limited to a certain angle range until you reposition it, probably only 10 degrees in any direction should be good, perhaps 45 degrees of vertical rotation. Part of this set up process would of course be hiding it. This could help a lot with close range combat for two reasons, if you left your gun to quickly get more ammo or something then you won't even have a weapon at all, and because the set-up process will be far too slow to do in close range.
Another possible thing you could do with this is make it such that when firing it takes about a second of time in which you still get to aim but there's a visual indicator that you're about to shoot which means your enemy is probably not going to escape if you're a good shot, but his allies have a whole second to react to you.
Good video. I'm glad you acknowledge the sheer variety of shooters and how a lot of things will affect the design of ranged weapons, something that the Arch video I think didn't really do as it assumes pretty specific game type without mentioning it. Good editing too.
On the topic of silencers/suppressors, the only thing they should do in tacticool games _(besides reducing damage dealt and giving you a heat signature - those internal baffles get quite hot)_ is _"unmute"_ enemy footstep sounds where the default unsupressed options would leave you with simulated hearing damage. Using attachments like these should give you more information - not take away information from your enemies. Real-life -silencers- suppressors don't make you disappear from enemy spy planes/satellites/drones, so any shooter that prides itself on realism needs to stop being advertised as "realistic" if its suppressor attachments makes you invisible to ears/maps/sensors. But yes, sniper-type weapons definitely need to have less "sustain" capacity compared to everything else. It's not just to punish sloppy play, but also so that people using automatic weapons have longer sustain abilities where they might be able to close the distance on the sniper by laying down suppressive fire and not run out of ammunition. I also don't like how the TF2 Sniper can one-shot even one class without fully charging the scope - and the botting issue that the game now has exacerbates that design flaw. Another balancing tactic besides map design and a charge mechanic would be to make the damage dealt proportional to the distance to the target. The closest real-world analogy would be the Gyrojet pistol/carbine family of firearms that used a tiny rocket propelled round that fires itself like a whole bullet would be fired from a Portal turret - it was a failed technology that manufacturing variances in the jet exit hole angles caused it to be wildly inaccurate and spin off-target, but because it was a jet/rocket rather than a projectile propelled by a single explosion, its velocity upon exiting the muzzle was lower than when it would finally hit the target as it continued to accelerate after leaving the muzzle. I honestly don't think there is a single FPS that has this mechanic of "the further away from the target the bigger the damage", and it'd be neat to see it somehow end up in TF2 as Gyrojet carbines are the exact type of spytech silliness that the game already has in spades. Personally, my favourite "balancing" method of snipers is by intentionally making them overpowered and then putting them in various places around the map ala Halo/Quake/Unreal Tournament/Time Splitters (the list of arcade FPS games really goes on). This way (if the map is symmetrical or at least a well-designed asymmetrical map) it's not the rifle's fault for being OP - it's your fault for letting the enemy get to it first (or you mindlessly rushing to grab it without checking if the enemy didn't make a "hard read" of what you would do and booby-trapped the sniper spawn by throwing a perfectly placed grenade). Oh hey! Maybe that's an idea for a future video? The differences between arcade and tactical shooters, or what makes an arcade shooter tick. The cousin to arcade shooters I find the most interesting is arcade shooters that mix both foot and vehicle combat (again, Halo, Unreal Tournament 3 and 2004, and to SOME extent Planetside 2 but only on a technicality as it has that mix while not being too much like ARMA despite the complete lack of on-map weapons). If you got this far into an essay from a furry of all things, then congratulations! I hope you learned something cool or found an interesting game series to check out.
Splatoon continues to have some of the best sniper design with several of the points you brought up in either a novel way (Scope Glint > Weapon glow while charging) or implemented as is. Highly recommended game series if you're looking for a new boomer shooter with a nice twist.
the biggest issue with snipers in games tend to be that: 1-they are often the ONLY good long-range option 2-they tend to be awkward to use at short range, but not less effective meaning a highly skilled sniper player will be as good at short range than they are at long range its not for no reason that in a lot of games, cheaters flock towards sniper weapons, as they tend to be the flat out BEST option in almost all situations once the player's aim is no longer a concern
This is true, lots of mechanics are widely accepted when they don't need to be. Long range at least appeals to specific players so it's usually a no-brainer to add, but it's never needed and can sometimes hurt the rest of the game.
And when their attempt to balance long ranged fighters is "make them weak at close range", you gave them a negligible, if not nonexistent, downside. Wow, they're not great at close range? That's amazing, good luck getting close enough
Seems quite reductive imo, but that’s the moba and fighting game player in me. It’s like saying denial or blue as a whole in mtg just shouldn’t exist. Or that guile and dhalsim shouldn’t have been added to street fighter 2. And yes even in shooters there should be something to pump the breaks. Every point made in the video is more pointing out how range just has the highest possibility for a lack of interaction between two players. At least in mobas and fighting games there’s systems in place ether universally or within characters themselves to combat a range disparity in most cases. Where if it does cost a resource it’s self contained and or self regenerating.
It's an important part of many games. Snipers are integral to large-scale tactical shooters like Hell Let Loose and Red Orchestra. They act as recon units who can provide vital information and harrass behind enemy lines. While it can suck to randomly die to someone you didn't even know was there, getting pinned down by a sniper with your squad and coordinating to find out where they are and push them is so satisfying. Also you die immediately from every other gun anyway, so their only advantage is that they can do that from a little further
Possible changes I’ve thought of for sniper, some probably better than others so I’m not suggesting these all be implemented together. ADS time: self explanatory, adds an animation in which sniper has to look through his scope. Initial ADS sway: Might be redundant with ADS time but add an initial moment of weapons sway in which a sniper needs to stabilise his aim after scoping in. Seen in games like rust. Sniper laser hum: the full sniper’s laser becomes visible if you are close enough to it and also emits an electronic hum sound to alert you he’s trying to line up a shot. Increased flinch: Self explanatory, increase the amount of flinch and add punishing weapon sway if you take damage scoped in. So even if he’s far away but you spot the sniper you can make pester him into missing a shot and having to reposition easier. Lower ammo pool and add a magazine capacity: Self explanatory, works exactly like the shotgun, or a sniper in any other game. Increase muzzle flash and add tracers for all snipers: Self explanatory.
Excellently balanced video. Definitely agree with the TF2 example and solutions. It's what we've implemented on our balance mod, Bad Weapon Rehabilitation.
You mean that weapon rebalance server? afaik the only thing they did was add a mag, which doesn't help in the slightest. It is just annoying It does not stop your from quick scoping, it does not prevent you from getting multi kills. It just punishes you harder for missing. Rising the skill ceiling for a class whose entire issue is that it's balance is aimed way below it's skill ceiling
@@rompevuevitos222 It helps in the ways that Patrick describes, by slowing the sniper down requiring them to be more considerate in picks rather than being able to make shots without consequence. Also, being able to make quick picks is mandatory for the pace of the game, especially where Medic exist.
@@ShakerSilver The game is literally built around not having instant picks due to long kill times. The devs themselves have said that the Sniper goes AGAINST the game's base design because of this. When kill times are high, the only thing that matters is damage (because getting rid of the enemy is always better, specially when it's instant) and lower DPS classes like spy, engineer and medic loose value. In a game about team play that is pretty counter productive And good players do not have to worry about consequences because they rarely miss But assuming said player does miss often, reloading doesn't matter if your target is dead. Only thing you're doing is making it more annoying for bad snipers I'm kinda surprised a server about rebalancing missed such obvious points
@@rompevuevitos222 I would question where you got that admission from the devs from considering how fine-tuned the damage numbers and mechanics of the sniper were towards fulfilling his base role, despite some quirks that could be improved. Tho if it's from that alleged Uncle Dane quote than I probably don't want to hear it. While I understand the perspective of it in a vacuum seeming incredibly unfair, because we are balancing from the perspective of the whole game it causes us to look at how sniper is balanced in the context of TF2. In the context of TF2 his role is to support his team by applying a pressure down a sightline, not unlike an engineer does in close quarters but more selectively against single targets. I do concede he has a problem, but it's not what is being discussed here. On the issue of slower TTKs, I think that one is overstated a fair bit. While Sniper can one shot a great deal of classes, nearly every other combat class can two-shot a larger number of them (or with automatic weapons, kill them in less than 2 seconds) and can finish them off much faster in 3 shots those that sniper finish off in 2 shots. Sniper's key advantage is range, and while a big one requires far more commitment to a more sedentary method of killing, and necessitates being selective in order to be effective. Additionally, of the classes Sniper can one-shot, they are either largely out of his way - Sniper and an enemy engineer being on opposite ends of their team's backlines, or Spies appearing right behind the Sniper being unwieldy to reliably one-shot - or they are classes who he needs to be able to pick off by necessity - enemy Snipers already established in a sightline need a reliable way to countersnipe, hence why attempts to make quickscoping slower or less lethal only empowers a campy sniper, and enemy Medics who literally dictate the pace of the game with one good Uber push require a good way to reliably pick at a moment's notice that doesn't require a suicide trade from your team. Really the biggest issue is as described in this video and that we examined on the server, that being Sniper having too much sustainability and being too effective at maintaining pressure. This is why we advocate for the clip-based system, not to nerf an already bad sniper but to equally moderate the rate at which a good sniper can sustain a sightline. By adding a clip and longer reload time, it eases that pressure he applies and allows for more opportunity for the enemy team to challenge that area, while forcing a Sniper to be more selective in their shots if they want to maintain pressure by going for the most important picks lest he be caught out needing to reload at the wrong moment.
@@ShakerSilver They where asked: "If you could remove any class, what would it be?" And they said sniper, because the class was not balanced for people with hundreds of hours (like all other classes) But sniper specifically has such a high skill ceiling and reward for reaching it, that it makes it completely busted in such scenarios He is supposed to be support, to apply pressure. But he's not just the class with the best kill rate, but the best defense class in the game He does NOT fulfill a support role, he fulfills a defensive/damage role. When the cart is being pushed, who is the best at stopping it? Sniper When the point is being captured? also Sniper When a team mate needs help breaking a stalemate? Not sniper, it's either spy, medic or demo In TFC sniper was actually a support class. It had to charge for a long time to get actual kills, the aim wasn't instant with mouse movement (so hiding the dot wasn't as simple to do) and you would inflict a movement debuff if you hit the enemy's legs (because you actually had a reason to do it due to not being so ridiculously powerful) Sniper is completely broken atm, because his role shouldn't be to instantly kill anything in his sight line, but it is right now
This is super well thought out. I love that you showcase both sides in a non-biased way. Pretty much everyone that makes a video like this usually either whine about imbalance or act elitist about skill. This is the best mid ground I could have ever asked for. I don't fully agree with the Sniper changes, but some of them like the tracer rounds are perfect.
A well thought out argument! However: Huntsman. Because yeet skeet my fleet of flint-tipped mini-logs while partaking of Delino Plaza, ear diddle version! Mania's a helluva drug innit?
Very good video overall. The editing was spot on and kept me intrested all the way through, non of the points felt agrssive like "AAAAH IF YOU HATE IT DON'T PLAY IT" sort of way. More of a "This is how it works, people don't like it, here's how we can fix it". I liked the animation and IRL talking instead of using a PNG of your pfp that lot of people use (me also guility of it). And using plenty of games to compare off. 10/10 video you did a great job ☺👍 I'm not wearing any pants right now.
i really adore your style of editing and presenting the topics. like i can really see how passionate you are about it :D the chapter segments are so fun to watch
Didn't finish the video yet, but I wanna point out something in regard to the "range problem in other genres". You briefly showed gameplay from Starcraft 2 in this short segment, and it reminded me of my most played game on steam, Company of Heroes 2. I'm not a high-level player by any means, but what I notice to be the biggest problem, both high and low elo, is the use of mobile mortars. Long range IS extremely useful, and has it's trade-offs, that being, utter shit at doing anything other than bonking you with heavy rocks from a kilometer away. Thing is, when you use a sniper in a shooter game, you're ALWAYS at a close-range disadvantage, but in company, you don't have a mortar, you have a mortar, a light armored vehicle, 2-3 infantry squads, and whatever else. The mortar is ESSENTIAL to play company of heroes, but good God is it a pain in the scrotum to do something about it (other than making your own mortar and playing a completely different game within that match, of whack-a-mole with the enemy mortar).
Two of the solutions which are often suggested, even in this comment section: 1) inverse damage fall-off (damage rise-on?) and 2) charge time. They do indeed fix quite a lot of the problems, but they have one fundamental flaw: They are completely unintuitive. In an arcade shooter like TF2, filled with sci-fi or straight up magic, this can be justified. But in more realism-ish shooters, like CS:GO, why on Earth should a bullet deal more damage the longer it is flying, or the longer it stays in the chamber? I am saying this, because I see a lot of people suggesting this as the holy grail of balance, for games where it makes no narrative sense.
Actually fun fact there is a pistol that (theoretically) gets more effective the longer the bullet travels because the bullets are rocket propelled! I mean, the gun wasn't very effective from what I understand, but there is real life precedent for bullets to get more powerful the longer they travel so hey. I mean, more realism focused fps games take liberties with science and junk. Take the minigun for instance. Plenty of "realistic" fps games have player characters wielding them in their arms, which just... no. No no no.
@@snarkyginger1158 As another example, think about how often even realistic shooters use regular shotguns (not sawed-off shotguns, just regular shotguns).
I think along with your ideas to fix tf2's sniper info problem, is also team communication. Ive seen people making community fixes to add a "Sniper!" voice command to the list of commands and honesty it works well with what you had to say. Interesting video and stuff you got to say! Also personally, I think Splatoon 3 handles snipers the worst. E-liter 4k sniper on mincemeat metalworks can watch the entirety of the map near their spawn behind mid point. Its insane.
Fun fact: there actually is a tf2 sniper call-out, however, it works differently than normal. This sniper callout is exclusive to the Mann vs Machine mode when a robot sniper spawns and your character automatically says it. Implementing a voice command like that would be a good idea since they already have the voice lines.
@@ARandomPersonFromTheNet yeah I've seen mods of people making it, only thing is that the scout's, demo's, sniper's, and spy's voicelines cut off weird because they don't have the call outs in MvM and they have to resort to sentence-mixing
I disagree with your opinion on shounics experiment, I really believe his method is one of the best ways any sniper rifle like TF2 (almost instantaneously, Infinite range, single bullet kill) has ever been handled and if you don't want to change the fundamentals of the sniper rifle (like making it take a long time to charge or taking multiple shots to kill) a ray on the sniper is in my opinion the best way to do it.
why would anyone play a class thats success is built on positioning and aim where they can have their positioning invalidated and aim. I think you just get owned online and cry about it.
It's really annoying how at least half the video is dedicated to stuff that anyone watching this would already know. Like man we clicked on a video about video game snipers, please give us the benefit of the doubt and assume we know this shit already or can figure it out on our own. Or at least get through it faster.
I love the way splatoon does this personally. Yes it still has problems, but it has many areas it can attempt to balance range in. Generally as range increases, painting capacity decreases. Same goes with damage and paint. Painting is really important in the game as being in your own paint lets you effectively dash, or remain hidden, while the enemies slows and damages you. Ontop of this the chargers (snipers) have a charge time before they fire, a trail like in shounics video, and glow like crazy. The other big option for long range, the splatlings, are cumbersome and need to be charged up to fire, and fire a burst relative to their charge time. All this to say i quite enjoy the balance of splatoon range, even if its current iteration isnt perfect, its multiple facets for balance can be very useful.
Really in Splatoon's case, it's the really the linear map design that causes long range to be more powerful than it should. There needs to be more flanks.
22:30 This right here. I am so tired of games having overly obnoxious balance at times and I'm glad you got the perfect words to describe on how it's unfun when players optimize things to the point of even defending absurd stuff, and I mean everything in general and not just snipers in games. Thanks pal! 👍
These are the kinds of videos I like to put on in the background while I do other stuff... But this dude, Mr Peaburt Beanmann.... He puts so much into the asthetic aspect of things with goofy animations, relevant examples, and informative diagrams that I can't JUST listen, I gotta watch to get the full enjoyment. Well freakin dun :3
older video but this is how im finding you. And I gotta say this video is really really well made. Firstly, it makes it easier to more or less understand range and how it works effectively in games, I prior to this video I had an opinion on ranged classes in games being unfair, without even a proper argument as to why (I was the idiot that’d run in the same sightline then get surprised as to why I died). That being said, you’ve skewered my belief of what is fair and unfair. Theres a difference between having an argument and not knowing how to convey it, and just being flat out wrong, I was wrong. So thanks for that. The video is really well paced I felt too and the editing was funny and kept my attention long enough to let me understand what was happening in your own unique way. If this is how the rest of your content is i’ll definitely watch more. Solid work man
I just came up with an idea. Instead of doing a set amount of dmg, a bullet does a set amount of percent of the hp. So if you have like 100 hp it does 75% of the total hp
i've spent the entire video sitting on the edge of my chair and thinking OH MY GOD THIS GUY MUST HAVE SPENT AT LEAST AN HOUR ON THIS 6 SECOND MOTION GRAPHIC THAT APPEARS JUST ONCE. having an experience in CG can be a curse sometimes. congrats on putting it all together, its amazing
Makee, make, make the (sniper) rifle shoot PROJECTILES that have VELOCITY with DROP instead of instant, hitscan death beam, giving flack to the sniper when scoping in too hard, will make game with open map/tactical shooter feel more fair and less like a camping simulator.
More people would think that sniping/long range weaponry and classes are fair if there were reasons outside of “it’s hard” to explain why they’re fair. Most of the time that’s all people can come up with, as if I should be content with the fact that I died to someone I couldn’t see, couldn’t damage, and couldn’t react to simply because they’ve logged more hours in the game than me.
I'd say they are correct to think so. Every game should have an option to give you better benefits (such as oneshots) depending on the amount of time and skill you bring with you into the game. But it should always have a massive drawback that ALSO requires skill to play around, and can be used to shut you down if you arent playing optimally (things like very low health, slow fire rate, long reloads or such). It should, in my opinion, always veer into the direction of a glass cannon, and have options like alternative routes or long range chip damage weapon that can mess you up if you arent on top of everything constantly. That way, people can be rewarded for putting more time or having more skill, but without taking all enjoyment out of the game because of no counterplay
I've gotten lots of comments about it, especially on the Payload video I did a while back. No doubt the reason is because all the Splatoon games are Switch exclusive.
@@P-Bean yeah, I'm not surprised or really blaming anyone for not including it, it's just funny seeing things like "both sides can push the objective!!!" "Snipers but you can see were they're looking??" as major shake ups when the game you play the most has had that and then some for a while, like give it 6 months and we'll have a new FPS fad of "capture the flag but the flag is a powerful but slow weapon that overrides your class and reveals your location"
I played QC:DE and i like how they balanced the railgun there. It does slightly less damage than other burst damage weapons, could be charged up by scoping to do as much damage as a rocket and it has slow fire rate. It also has a clear bullet trace and charging time is just as long as the cooldown. All this makes for a reliable long range damage dealer that is well balanced in my opinion.
Very good video. I think it’s one of the few critics/essays about snipers that understands the attraction of the playstyle. (I say that because from what I’ve seen, many try to find a solution but forgetting to keep it immersive and not taking away what makes sniping fun.) Only disagree with the silencer and “pussy” arguments; but then again, I’m the type of Sniper that likes to run around and quickscope.
You should take a look at Splatoon for some balancing examples. ProChara's channel is a great introduction to Splatoon 3's balancing. Splatcharger and Ballpoint for life.
ive always thought it would be cool to give tf2 a l4d style music system, because then you could have something similar to the witches theme that plays when you get close to the snipers laser
Blanket-nerfing a long-range character/class sort of defeats the purpose of it in my eyes. A good sniper class/weapon - _to me_ - should reward consistently hitting your shots and repositioning often to keep the enemy guessing. It shouldn't punish players who are good at those things just because the interaction is inherently unfair, but since _all_ players will make mistakes, those mistakes should have harsher consequences for long-range characters. The rate of fire could progressively get slower and slower either based on how many consecutive shots you've missed or how low the ammo count is. Standing in direct sunlight could cause a scope glint, but standing in shadows could also dim the scope when you zoom in, requiring the player to consider their position before committing to it. The penalty for missing your shots would also force snipers to think critically when cornered - the sniper rifle is still _powerful_ at close range, but missing even one shot could seriously limit their effectiveness in the future, and without using their secondary, they're mostly doomed if they're cornered by more than one player. The enemy player _should_ be given information (even against good snipers), but I think that the indicator should be dependent on the sniper's mistakes. In my theoretical game, shots that hit are invisible, but missed shots are tracer rounds. Holding in the scope for too long could cause its laser-marker to gradually extend, until eventually it becomes an always-visible beam with a 30s cooldown to disappear - in other words, taking too long to shoot gives your position away, OR forces you to look away to keep the beam hidden, sacrificing agency in potentially-critical moments in exchange for not being seen. This way, snipers who don't reposition often will give their position away more often through scope glint or the beam, and snipers who don't hit their shots consistently would be punished by firing more tracer rounds and taking longer overall to fire. Only a player who can consistently do _both_ would operate with full cover and efficiency - which is what I see as the reward for most sniper characters in games.
Being good doesn't mean you deserve to steamroll everything Sniper is literally an instant kill at any range. This is simply unbalanced, so the thing should either be removed or reworked. Unless the game it's meant to be casual, you can't just ignore the balance issues because "they earned it" Increasing consequences just makes good sniper players rarer. Which makes balance worse, the class less fun and the entire thing feel worse for everyone involved.
@@rompevuevitos222 Nobody deserves anything - good players will just naturally start steamrolling players who are less skilled. In games that prioritize individual play, failing to reward good players makes the game less fun to play. In games that prioritize team cooperation, a sniper won't always be the best tool for the job, even in a skilled player's hands. Increasing consequences doesn't make good snipers rarer, it just balances snipers who are only good at shooting or only good at positioning. Most importantly, it makes the most optimal playstyle one that's fair for shorter-ranged characters. That makes things feel _better_ for everyone involved.
Another idea to add on is that either the longer you zoom or the more shots you miss, the greater you tunnel vision becomes - possibly by blurrying the edges of the screen progressively more and more. This way, close-ranged classes will always have some reliable way to reach snipers.
I would love to see the concept of reverse-falloff ever actually used in a game. If you stop shotguns being useful at long range by making them deal less damage at long range, why not just make snipers less useful at close range by making them deal less damage at close range? Why even leave open the opportunity for the crackedest gamer ever to throw out bodyshot after bodyshot like it's nothing? And even when not doing this, games REALLY like to act like one second between shots is instant death for a sniper. Lean into that shit, make it hurt to miss a shot. For all its flaws, Brink implemented snipers exceptionally well with its high-damage option taking over three entire seconds and a forced camera blur + unzoom every single shot!
I feel like snipers would feel more fair if the laser sight glowed or something so that it's WAY harder to hide while STILL not giving away a snipers position too bad. I think the reason why the Garand still pops up in games is that the weapon itself is balanced for games, it has a LOUD distinct loading sound, it wobbles a lot because of it's weight, the recoil on it keeps it from popping off too hard, and the clip can only take 8 rounds, so it's high damage output is understandable in games. I feel like snipers should have effective ranges and NEVER have a side arm for close quarters, just a smaller caliber secondary sniper rifle effective at medium range OR an assault rifle that is most effective at medium range but kicks so wildly it's useless up close. Snipers should be FUCKED if they can't keep up an effective range, I feel like snipers also move too fast widow maker can swing around like spider man and Sniper in TF2 has a decent movement speed AND FUCKING MELEE BACK STAB ARMOR so he is an OP melee fighter too, since snipers have such a HUGE range they should also be the SLOWEST class to really make them have to get tactical about their positioning and help mitigate camping since, shooting SHOULD giveaway your position and make you a prime target, like IRL snipers you should take your shoot and get moving to find a new target before you become one.
Delicious. Finally, some good fucking food. I'm happy SOMEONE finally decided to notice that people hate sniper because he is annoying and the sniper's pressure is not interactive enough. These fuckers are always like "sniper is balanced because it takes skill" BITCH I DON'T CARE, MAKE IT FUN TO FIGHT OR YOU GET THE NAIL BAT. Poggers vid, you are getting really good at this :)
![Why [TF2] has (Almost) Perfect Melee Weapons](/img/1.gif)
Finally someone understands that good balance is signaled by player satisfaction, not just literal numbers. Simply put, the best kind of balancing is the one that's invisible and feels natural.
Reminds me of a game where the developers “buffed” a weapon by making it sound more powerful. I recall it was a WWII game and it was an smg
@@ethanrussow9262 it was a ww2 game where americans had a thompson and germans i think m40 or whatever popylar gun and the thompson had more powerfull Shooting sound
Quick, someone tell Arrowhead.
I spend 50% of my time in TF2 bullying snipers with the loose cannon on 2fort battlements, I don't regret a second
I like to play as demo with booties charging targe and stock bottle or some other reskin, trimping over and over again on the 2fort bridge roof to kill the snipers or anyone on the balconies really. I average about 60-80 kills before I get bored and move onto dustbowl classwars or something
I like trying to harass snipers using unconventional classes (like engi)
Your doing gabens work
The sigma answers to counte snipers,don't forget sticky jumper and pan strat
and I spend 50% of my time headshoting you out of the sky 😁
As much as some people prefer the "long range-short range" trade-off for long-range classes, the existence of Jarate + Bushwacka in TF2 to cover for close-range is already terrifying. The deadly piss can make you piss your pants out.
Sniper is still a 125 health class with base speed and no defensive capabilities.
Unless you're a medic/spy(without embassador) or have terrible aim. You can consistently best sniper even while pissed
@@rompevuevitos222one hit and you're dead though, if you're a low health class
@@zathegame One shot after switching to jarate, throwing, switching to melee and swinging in melee range
Compared to kill time of shotguns, you have to slip up in order to loose the encounter or simply be attacked first (in which case any class can kill you anyway)
The classic is a superior sniper rifle above all others, can you name any other sniper rifle that makes your killed enemies not only not mad, but olso respect you?
@@rompevuevitos222 yeah but they can also just quickscope headshot you close range. Yeah its skillful on their end but it still sucks to be on the other end of it when you might’ve had to work hard to even flank him on some maps.
21:56 Actually, in the 'Meet the Sniper' trailer, towards the end just before he aims at the camera, you can see that when he pulls the bolt back, he immediately shoves another round in the chamber. He's just that good lol.
He turn a single round sniper rifle into a semi auto rifle.
"Just respect the sightline bro"
>TF2 maps that are 99% long hallways and sightlines
Get good pyromain
a little annoyed that the map he chose to demonstrate idiot players walking into sightlines was fucking wutville. like there is no sightline to avoid. the entire map is a sightline.
@@JaxontheOkay Honestly trying to argue with sniper players in any game is like trying to argue with that little cousin who cheats during board games and always tries to change the rules and throws a tantrum saying youre playing wrong whenever you come close to beating them.
And if you try to flank you run into 200 sentries
Or he notices you and your dead anyway cuz quickscoping :D or he is fully charged and leaves you on 50 hp or none depening on the class
One thing that I think makes the Kraber balanced in Titanfall 2 is every player’s super high movement speed and low time to kill. Most people (even non kraber mains) heavily respect and admire good kraber mains in the community. It’s because they know that using the kraber while flying at mach 10 through the air after using their grapple then hitting their shot on an enemy doing the same thing is no easy feat. This also coupled with the map design turning large open spaces that would normally be impenetrable sight lines into Titan infested death traps, allows Titanfall to be in the unique position to not have to nerf the kraber (and by extension all other sniper rifles) by making them slow and cumbersome weapons like in other games. I know you probably don’t have time to talk about it but I think the kraber is a really good counter example to Sniper’s stock in Team Fortress.
Just because I have respect for folk who use the kraber doesn't mean I have to like them using it lol. It still feels cheaper than getting a one shot kill with the Mastiff, which in itself feels like about the same level of difficulty. The one thing I don't have any respect for is the CAR being used by like a G10 player.
Kraber sucked ass on console and that muzzle velocity and drop is excessive for the average ranges and move speed of the game, i love Titanfall 2 but balanced it is not
@@LeoparditusRecords better than AR meta bullshit in most games
5.56 is so boring irl, bog standard, practical, BORING
@@lambsauce5312yeah titanfall is not balanced what so ever
The Kraber's balance is kinda shit, honestly: it's one of those guns that are just capped by fire rate and mag size because every Kraber player picks the quickscope and fast reload attachments and instantly nukes whoever gets in their line of sight, since there's not really a game cap to the player's own aim and the gun's TTK is strictly dictated by it. Sure, one could argue "just don't die and move better lmao lol", but it's one of the examples of snipers being too good at close range and movement does nothing if the player's aim can compensate entirely for it, which is why many people opt for higher health pools rather than movement in games like that: you cannot counter someone's good aim with your movement, but you can counter it by making them have to aim better for longer to kill you. It doesn't feel fair to get killed by a Kraber unless you actually had the chance to deal equivalent damage to that player, which more often than not isn't the case when the entire encounter is not even about who fires the first shot, since you'll still need to hit multiple while they only need to hit one.
Comparing it to the Mastiff, the Mastiff is a much better option because it's a projectile shotgun with a spread and damage still annoying enough at close range that the player is not only aiming down sights on a projectile weapon, they're also actively seeking headshots and creating the weird situation where the shotgun is the weapon where the player is going for the headshots to kill people in one hit, effectively making the player need to aim more with a shotgun than with a sniper rifle. I mean, I think that last part already sums up why Kraber is a poorly-balanced gun and Kraber mains just pretend using it is some kind of incredible feat of self-sacrifice to cope with using an unfair gun.
Something I must say that I feel isn't worth mentioning in this video is skill ceiling. As if the developers didn't expect players to get this good, and a class such as a sniper where you can be the most useless, where you miss and the enemy doesn't know you exist so you aren't even a good distraction, to the potential to hard carry with near limitless hit-scan instant kill attacks. They now know this, but changing a class 100% means they'll have to change other aspects, mainly balancing other classes, so they just settled.
It would be cool, if you modded in alex churchill and joel into tf2. IT would really be the sfm update lisa the pointless needs.
I do kinda feel like Sniper in TF2 can be reworked without needing to do anything to the other classes since he just basically has no interaction with anyone else. Since his interaction basically goes: He either does not exist, or he instantly kills you without warning.
@@Felipe45345 HUH???????????????
@@return4887 Lisa the pointles scholar of willbur sin ultimate mod source update free download
@@Felipe45345 please stop it
Chad tarkov:"why not make EVERY encouter bullshit?"
Holy shit the amount of work that went into this entire video is incredible. The transitions especially just tickle my brain right.
“If the optimal way to play isn’t fun, it’s a game design problem, not a player or community problem.” HE SPEAKETH THE TRUTH.
An Idea for Snipers that I've always thought was kind of neat is the idea of reverse damage fall-off similar to the medic Crossbow in TF2. I feel like this could reduce the danger of snipers in close range however still keep him decent in longer ranges, I also reckon this can discourage people hacking to an extent as it limits people walking around and being upclose and instantly headshotting poeple as well as Sniper bots like in TF2.
Reverse damage falloff is good as its punishing the sniper for not positioning well enough to take advantage of their increased long range effectiveness
That would not weaken his long range game though, which is the part everyone hates, while taking away sniper's ability to play up close even if they hit the god flick. I think it is yucky and bad and stupid
@@uhohspaghettios821 People hate dying in one shot from a distance, but they hate it even more when they finally get into range and put the long-range guy at a disadvantage...Only to die anyways.
This is what I keep telling people but they all want to nerf sniper like ambassador which makes no sense, and for @uhohspaghettios sniper was made for long-ranged play, everyone complains that sniper can just delete someone up close with a headshot so equipping reverse falloff seems like the best solution
ie.
120 headshot dmg dmg in cqc // 40 bodyshot (melee range)
up to 50 // 150 at long range
(scaled with charge up to 360 on cqc & 450 at long range)
this proposed idea still keeps sniper somewhat viable in most situations but prevents any class from being killed unless they took damage prior, this incentivizes snipers to prioritize their positioning without sacrificing too much to consider the class "long range only", the complaint here is that good snipers kill "TOO FAST", so why not give people more time to kill it?
@@ED-gw9rg that’s definitely Sniper’s worst aspect to me. For years Spy was his best counter and had the power of old Dead Ringer, Ambassador and Kunai all at once and instead of nerfing that everyone just got buffed with anti-spy weapons and now that Spy is much weaker, Sniper still has the ability to deal with stuff right next to him despite having no good reason to as a long range class.
I know this is about multiplayer games and you have the most experience there, but it would have been nice if you talked about Minecraft's skeleton, especially how it not only does the exact opposite of what it's supposed to do (be a long range enemy that supports other enemies), but is *too* good at it.
It didn't even cross my mind to talk a out ranged AI or Minecraft. Thankfully the shield in Minecraft helps out with the skeleton a lot, but only when you're focusing on it and there's an easily manageable amount of them.
I have a better idea - trident drowned
Depending a bit on version, for some reason... On Java, shields can be raised instantly+skeletons shoot way slower, on bedrock they fire way faster and shields take like a full second to raise. If I'm wrong, please kindly correct me.
@@user-le8wr4yz6q Their delay will reset if they are hit on every currently updated version of Minecraft, meaning they're not that bad alone.
@@existingchannel6671 You're correct about skeletons firing faster, idk about the shields though.
Also, I was talking about Java skeletons in my comment, so that means the skeletons on bedrock have to be absolutely horrible to fight.
TF2 (and most other games) really need the option to alert other players about the area being under a sniper watch or something. Like we can call out for spies in TF2. Also, when I was playing cruelty squad whenever an enemy sniper spots you, it says "I see you" (and something like similar) that can be an interesting goofy mechanic to add too. The person will be paranoid and seek for cover but the sniper position won't be reveled until they fire the shot.
there kinda is in Tf2 with the laser dot of aiming snipers... though it wont appear if the sniper wants to quickscope
@@thorveim1174 You do realize Sniper can just... Not look directly at sightline to hide the dot?
@@prosto_a_user he can but also means he tunnel visions himself if he stays like that. Most of the time they just dont take aim until there is a target in sight (since a quickscope is already enough anyway to oneshot anything not named soldier, demoman and heavy barring possible overhealing, none of which are threats to a sniper sitting at long range anyway)
I think a point that arch showcases in his video about sniper rifles is that despite how much the community shits on and hates sniper in tf2, he is ironically one of the most balanced renditions of a sniper rifle in video gaming.
Just imagine a sniper rifle in tf2 that dealt headshot damage to the body and could do so without having to wait for a charge meter, oh and let that sniper rifle also have a secondary iron sight beside the scope. Because that’s what call of duty has and allows.
It would single-handedly make the game unplayable, except even worse in that it would be officially endorsed by valve rather than the result of people using software programs to abuse sniper’s strengths.
the main problem with sniper, he has effectively infinite range while everyone else has mid at best.
@@cindrblok7948 Don't play on turbine then lol
@@rexosaurus3610 That brings up a good point actually. I used to think that sniper was OP and needed a nerf a good while back. This guy's comment that you responded to is a testament of how important map design is within tf2. Most of the most popular maps within tf2 also happen to have really bad sniper sightlines that the maps just don't give you an option to play around.
Badwater is a great example of both good and terrible map design. The map plays really well all the way until last, where I've seen games where a single sniper just completely denies blu last point (keep in mind we are talking about pubs here). Badwater last is one of the most unbalanced and unfun last points I've ever played, and whenever we reach that point and there's a sniper that isn't trash, I assume that we are gonna either lose or win with overtime, the sightlines and lack of traversal to said sightlines are that bad.
As someone who mained TFC sniper and TF2 sniper -- yeah your right the TF2 sniper is balanced. The TFC sniper by comparison is broken beyond belief only matched by the medic in terms of the abuse it can deliver.
Charge up your sniper dot without aiming down sights? Check.
A more generous sniper dot to hit with? Check.
Grenades? Triple check.
All these things allowed me as a Sniper in TFC to essentially rambo my way into the enemy base and hang around snapping up kills and being an utter terror; a fully charged bodyshot would kill every class outside of heavy and soldier /w max armor -- a simple snap headshot (no charge) would kill engies, scouts and no-armored demoman. Suspect a spy is sneaking up on you? Drop a grenade to discourage him from trying, or prime your grenade and toss it just right so you can frag him. Heck you can even use the grenade to propel yourself away from danger if need be.
But TF2? Yeah you'll need to pick your spots and be way more careful in hiding your sniper dot. No charging without aiming down sights, a more pixel-perfect (and thus less generous) dot and no grenades meant ramboing is out of the picture on the majority of maps now.
The only thing that didn't make TFC unplayable with the Sniper class was the Medic class. Spies were a joke but the medic was to be feared cause good luck trying to hit a pro medic in the middle of his perfectly timed and angled concussion-nade jump that gave him such ludicrous speed he could fly around you twice over and still have enough momentum to b-hop like crazy.
In call of duty everyone can kill from about as far as most regular sightlines are.
In tf2 long sightlines are pretty much just used by explosive classes lobbing grenades or rockets that take 2+ seconds to hit and still don't even 1 shot. Oh, and sniper.
The sniper in Splatoon 3 is a good combination Of 1. charge time. 2. lens glare 3. a lazer like in shounic's experiment (which admittedly is easier to hide than in other shooters). and most damningly: 4. a strict rage limit
The game ALSO features incredible movement. All of this would make one assume that the sniper is balanced or even bad in this game, because of all these drawbacks but yet, It isn't. And it's really because of the Maps being awful. like dear god the chockepoints are so bad. there are NO flanks on quite a significant amount of maps. The only reason why it's not REALLY strogn rn is because there is a special weapon that has MORE range and kills faster
The vertical-ness of a lot of Splatoon maps is both a pro and con
pros:
it encourages a lot of good close fights
vertical-ness works extremely well with the agile movement system
cons:
it's extremely difficult to counter a good team because, as you said, there are very few flanks in very few maps (often leverage places for long range have only 1 access point that is easily monitored)
movement is incredible but many walls aren't climbable so if you drop down to an area surrounded by unclimbable walls, there is no retreat or way to regroup
I've been absolutely slaughtered by really good sniper/long range players and I couldn't do anything about it because 1. I couldn't reach them 2. There were no routes to flank them with.
Ye... the maps are not the best... But I do think it is not really the form of the map that is the problem. (Not that you said it now. but for future discussion) Its that there is to many chokepoints... Oke i am part of the problem as a Hydra main... i do like me some Hagglefish market. but funny enough... I think that is my favorite map because of where you have to stand from your spawn.
As you do not get flanked 24/7 like in Um'ami Ruins. But that is also just because I can not focus on more then 1 thing thanks to ADHD and ASD...
Maybe its better if the backline spots were more open to get shot. But not that easy to physically go to as the enemy.
(I am fine with getting shot at. But please give me some personal space.)
That is also why i like the tent in Hagglefish Market. As it is open to get shot at but also a great spot to shoot.
I am not saying no inkable walls, just make it so that to defeat the backline you have to outsmart them. And not walk 3 meter and you kill the backline...
strognaoff
Also, to add another thing, usually, the only way to counter a long-range player in Splatoon is with long-range, but since you can't change your weapon once you start a match and you don't know who you're fighting against until the match starts.
It's especially annoying in Turf War (~60% of my 370 hours across Splatoon 2 and 3 is in a turf war, the other ~40% in Salmon run) where the most effective weapons are short-medium range for maximum ground coverage and most people go into games using them. You're lucky if your aerospray or inkbrush can even hit their feet.
One thing to note in Splatoon is that, in most cases, every frontline / midline weapon has at least one part of their kit that can deal with long-ranged opponents, be it a bomb they can throw at them to force them to drop their charge and move, or a special that can displace them for longer or even outright kill them. There are exceptions (rip brellas) but it's not always like "oh, there's a charger on the high ground, guess I don't get to play the game any more". Backlines might not have these tools (Heavy Splatling is pretty well countered by a charger in a direct fight), but it's not exactly common for your backline to be in shooting distance of the other team's backline (well, unless you're playing on Brinewater).
Long-range weapons are certainly annoying on the worse maps in the game (*cough cough* Mincemeat), but on good maps like Museum, MakoMart or Flounder, there are positions you can safely get to to throw stuff at common sniper positions.
As a novice game designer, this was a legit interesting game design video. Nice work!
I feel titanfalls kraber is one of the best balanced guns due to the insane movement potential that all players have and the fact titans can't be one shot at All
Titans existing in game and changing the balance dynamic of guns is such a cool idea, and Titanfall being able to do that well is the sign of a great game.
Fantastic video, the editing is crazy good! Your ideas for a sniper reblance are like one-to-one to my own. I also had the thought of a glint when the sniper's crosshair is over you, and the light of sniper dots jutting out like they're being scattered.
Hey that's a pretty neat idea.
One game that does this well which I haven’t really seen mentioned in this comment section is Garden Warfare, with the Cactus class.
Cactus is balanced by the fact that, while the full clip will kill an enemy, a single bullet won’t - even on headshot. Since the game tells you where the shot that hit you was fired from, a good player will use that information to catalogue where the sniper is and either tell their team or just kill the sniper. While this may seem bad for longer ranges, especially since Deadbeard (the Zombie sniper) didn’t exist in the first game, and since the game has extremelt long sightlines, it’s balanced out by large sightlines also being a disadvantage. Since cactus uses a projectile, travel time isn’t instant. Additionally, zoom isn’t enough to view the full area of larger sightlines (discounting Camo Cactus to some extent). As for Cactus’ close-ranged, I think this is also done well. While Cactus’ primary has nothing to stop the player from using it at coose range, it is also out-DPS’d by pretty much every other weapon at close range. Potato Mines and Wall-nuts are both strong close-ranged options too - one for offense, one for defense - but both come at the cost of a resource. Since the abilities have limited use, a good cactus needs to think about whether using them for self-defense is absolutely necessary, or if the encounter can be won with her primary, especially since Tall-nuts and Potato Mines are great for team support. There’s also garlic drone, which can be useful for dealing chip damage to zombies or helping with large fights (especially far from spawn), but it has 5 health (not an exaggeration) and leaves cactus fully vulnerable - not even being able to see the environment around her - which definitely helps balance it out. In all, Cactus winds up feeling balaced - not weak enough to be unusable, but not strong enough to be dominating.
oh yeah there’s also Deadbeard who is fairly well-balanced too I suppose, just less so compared to Cactus
nobody will tell their team "guys, theres a cactus camping in the back, be careful!" she will always either get ganged up on or a superbrainz finds his next victim.
Its 30 dmg, not 250
This is also balanced by the fact that classes like soldier are still decent at long range, meaning the cactus actually has counterplay other than just rage switching to another sniper or a stealth class.
The main issue with snipers is that it's an expectation that an fps game will have one sniper option, if not multiple, alongside shotguns or other close range options and expect them to be balanced. To me, snipers and close range options just don't belong in the same game because the two fundementally have a different gameplay loop and even different goals in gameplay. A close range option, like say, a minigun, has an inherent motivation built in to stay close to the objective (granted there is one) and do as much area denial as possible. It's just given that you need to be close to enemies, and enemies are close together around an objective, say a control point of sorts. You go to the control point, you are bound to bump into an enemy who's close enough to make it a fair fight or even an advantageous for you.
Contrast that with the long range options, like say, a bolt action sniper rifle. The latter has an inherent, built in allergy to being close to objectives because of the weaknesses that come with the neccesity to balance them. Some argue that they exist to punish bad positioning but how can you actually position well in maps that has laughably long sight lines? Not to mention the fact that everyone's favorite gamemode, payload, has an inherent sightline issue because the objective often moves along a straight rail track, thus creating big sight lines. So being on the objective is bad positioning?
Snipers, in my opinion, should be restricted to more deathmatch focused games, where they can't deny the objective just with their mere existance. Yes, I deliberately ignored the skill component of a sniper playstyle because, while a bad or an average skilled sniper will not, a very good one will straight up ruin the fun for the entire enemy team single handedly.
Something I try get across a lot, is that sniper isn't good for every game. But it's engraved in gamer and game dev brains to expect a sniper in every shooter, even when a sniper may not make sense to have.
When you really stop and think about it, letting certain players start with weapons that can often kill in one shot, at ranges that the enemy can't fight back at, is a stupid idea. Why would you bother with movement, tactics, positioning, accurate follow-up shots etc when you can just shoot everyone in the back safely from 200m away
@@0lionheart Exactly. Though the TF2 provided reason not to pick sniper, is that it could be boring or not fit for your playstyle. You have plenty of fun options that outweigh the ideal of optimal effectiveness. Which, works. Not everyone picks sniper. But then of course you have the receiving end. Getting killed by someone you didn't fight, nor had the chance to 200m away, isn't fun. No if ands or buts, it's just un-fun to die like that. And fun is king above all else. Which is why stun weapons were removed from the game, because being stunned, was spectacularly un-fun.
I think sniper has his place in TF2, he helps to reduce oppressive behavior over the span of certain areas and sightlines. *Though may just as well cause oppressive behavior.*
While sniper in TF2 works and should stay, if there was a tier list for least sense to exist in the game, sniper would outrank everyone on that list as making the least sense in the game in regards to its mechanics.
This isnt just for shooter games, take a look at fighting game zoners
3:32 A+
Idk sounds like a skill issue
Nah zones are usually balanced
@@randomperson7350 Unbalanced and annoying are not the same thing
@@goodgamer1419 bro i main zoners
Honestly the sniper glint thing is a really nice way to give out the snipers position without being a dead ass trail of their entire LOS, it also works really well with sight lines, as you should be able to check pretty easily if there is a sniper hiding anywhere. I also personally like descope mechanics like in halo, which let's you be able to challenge snipers a bit more by limiting their kill potential, even though you're not a direct threat.
Then you also have sht like tf2 spy's ambassdaor pre-nerf that could deadass challenge a sniper cross map and 2 hit them lol. But letting players challenge to a certain degree is nice, like how an ak in CS can also one hit the sniper, although not as easily
TF2 is like the only game where I'm not a sniper main because holy shit theres something so satisfying about having one single shot and having to make it count at the longest range you've got access to.
Hey, I've been enjoying your content a lot lately, I found your channel through your "Why Does Nobody Main Heavy" video and kept watching from there. But I have to say, at 0:54 you really made me feel uncomfortable. I'm autistic, and that word fell out of scientific fashion decades ago. Saying the r slur just makes people like me feel unwelcome and hurt when we watch your content (which is a real shame, because until now I had been enjoying it thoroughly) but now I'm just really disappointed. Please quit it with the r slur.
I came in here looking for this comment as I'm on the spectrum as well. I just started watching this guy, so it's no big loss. Still, it annoys me. I personally am fine with slurs if you're, for example, reading an old book with that language aloud. But this guy is just using the r slur as an insult to a strawman he's constructed out of half understood arguments. There's no reclamation here even if he himself has mental illness.
Even though im not autistic, i feel like hes just being really harsh on new players
It's funny you mention that sniper rifles should have visible white tracers, when the sniper rifle in TF2 is literally the only stock weapon that doesn't have that. What were Valve thinking??
Good vid Pat, you're good at this C:
oh shit, good point, all the other weapons have either smoke trails or the glowing tracers rounds.
I think some TF2 RUclipsrs make a good point when they say that Sniper's original design didn't take into account just how powerful long range, hitscan weapons can be in a game where hitscan weapons are like 90% close ranged or with damage falloff. In a game where most of the long range weapons are projectile based and not hitscan, Sniper stands out a la being a bit outdated, in the balancing aspect. Which wouldn't be bad, if he actually had penalties and hard counters that aren't other Snipers.
Spy? Too unfair, they said. Here's the Razorback!
Pyro? Too unfun and annoying, they said. Here's the Darwin Danger Shield.
See the problem? They gave a class that SHOULD have counters like these in exchange for their power, items that give them heavy protection to these counters, thus making them trivial at best. This doesn't always apply, I know, but unless you are either a good Spy that properly hit his revolver shots or use the Ambassador, or are a Pyro ballsy enough to get into close range with the Jetpack or Detonator, you're pretty much out of luck trying to get him.
And that's just his backpacks.
Jarate is a good secondary, but paired with the Bushwacka? Yeah, close range vulnerability, my ass.
Let's not even talk about quick scoping at close range to insta kill most light classes.
All in all, Sniper needs a major re-balance.
@@spectrumaevum7476
And hence why aimbot snipers are that oppressive, only countered by one other overpowered weapon that is the vaccinator
a personal favourite example of snipers done well is the charger weapon class in splatoon. they take time to charge, and only one shot at full charge. they also get increased range through charging, but never have infinite range. You always have to play close enough to be in danger of having a bomb or special thrown into your sniping spot. it's great!
I've grown to appreciate how you NEED to gamble when facing a Charger, but the CHARGER needs to gamble, too!
I recently picked up the Splatterscope, and people just love taking their Swim Speed for granted.
It's good until you fight people bouncing around the whole map with the Squiffer like they're on a pogo stick.
By balance in games it should be better named as "options" the players has for counter play.
Balance exists so that the players can actually interact with each other. It not about true balance.
On information and range. If you dont know where the enemy is. There is no interaction. It matter to sniper tf2 because he can change sightlines too fast making information useless.
On long range weapon being strong close range. JUST MAKE IT REQUIRE SET UP.
You mean like Ultrakill's Railgun? It requires set up and a well timed shot to make it extremely effective close up, i.e. through Rail-coining.
@@linear1224 Railcoins work well at ANY distance when you're godly enough at leading coin throws, and coining is definitely a lot faster than an average setup, but yeah, more or less.
Most of the coins and Railcannon's vulnerability time is in their cooldowns; the setup would be more like a start-up time (IE: Demoman has 0.7s start-up time per Sticky; in terms of weapon utilization, his mid-range damaging role is a relatively respectable can of worms compared to "click, click, and kill")
Few things can match the feeling of camping outdoors, the simplicity of it, pissing into jars and syringes to unleash at passers by. Simple pleasures in life.
I think halo does a good job with snipers. You don't spawn with one and need to find it, it has a relatively low fire rate, has tracers, and will only really kill in one shot if its a headshot
For me, my favourite examples of good and bad long ranged weapons are Apex Legends snipers and Sniper from TF2. In Apex, sniper ammo is picked up and stacked in smaller amounts, encouraging getting more ammo. Snipers also have loud noise, has a tracer and dont one shot, giving info. The snipers are also projectile and not hitscan. Because brs have the effect of anyone being anywhere it not one shotting makes it fair, imagine being oneshot because you weren't aware someone had a sniper, let alone be near you. The trade off is the sniper user can have a string close range weapon. Thats it really, but thats all you need. The snipers are great poking tools and can get picks quite easy if they're not careful, but not unfair to go against and dying to one is mostly on the targets fault not the sniper. The healing mechanic does also help. Then there's TF2 sniper. Rarely needs ammo, can oneshot most classes with a half charge, all with 3/4 and most maps are his playground and he's not balanced as if that is the case and is hitscan. The trade off is supposedly bad close range but jarate bushwacka combo stops that (if we delete one or the other the problem is fixed) and even without it the problem classes are either light or are usually under the 150 threshold by the time they got their, meaning a quick scope headshot is enough. All in all, snipers can be easily balanced on a game by game status, and is usually done so. Great examples are the Op and Awp from Valorant and CSGO, Apex snipers and other miscellaneous games i do not play. But snipers can be done horrendously, like in TF2 and Overwatch 2, with widowmaker and the sniper. Hanzo passes because even tho the hitbox is bigger then roadhog its still a somewhat slow moving projectile.
I think the most important aspect is the expectation of the game. When you play Hunt Showdown, youre EXPECTING to have death around every corner as the game's core fantasy. You play Hunt specifically for that feeling of needing to always look over your shoulder. In TF2, you play it for big movement based shotgun and rocket duels, and the sniper's existence just burns all that fun to the ground
Okay but seriously another fantastic video, you can tell a lot of time was spent on the script and yet more on the editing
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it.
18:14 ah yes my favorite inkspots song.
The sniper glint mechanic is very good as it forces the sniper to not always aim down sights because then they will just be shot by somebody out of their field of view
If you combine this mechanic with another mechanic which lets you see the player that killed you after you died, it will force the sniper to change positions after each kill
imo this is the most fun for the sniper and non sniper
Excuse me but what non sniper class can kill somone at that range
@@denizmergen418 A glint giving away a snipers location allows for more mobile characters to get in and contest them at close range.
@@christiancasaverdepertica1802 great idea to run straight towards the class that can instakill you as long as he sees you innit?
@@denizmergen418 Who said anything about running straight at them? Characters with better mobility can make more effective use of cover and take better advantage of any downtime the sniper has reloading.
@@christiancasaverdepertica18021 tf2 is not a game with cover maps are intenionaly made wide open sniper can still kill you while mobing from cover to cover 3 for a sniper to reload they should have already shot 4 sniper doesnt reload
I've also been thinking about ways that such a weapon could be balanced for a while, based on the core real life weakness of sniper weaponry being that they are almost all unwieldly. At first I thought that simply lowering the turn speed of the user would work, but then I realized that it could be circumvented via just upping mouse speed. However, I think I came up with a much better idea: your weapon turning independently of the camera. The idea is that when using a sniper rifle, the gun does not always follow your crosshair, instead taking a small amount of time to catch up with the crosshair. This would make a sniper rifle's user extremely weak to ambushes and basic movement, while making them very powerful at long range if using something like a bipod would minimize the movement time of the gun.
To think of it, it would be pretty easy to implement this system into a more realistic shooter across the board, giving lighter weapons like pistols more use than just being the cheapest option.
Hm, doing this might need a little work, maybe the sniper has to set up their position for it to be usable, like for instance not being able to use the gun unless they place it down in a similar way to engineer, then when not scoped it can be in third person so you can see how only your head is able to turn quickly while the gun itself is slow to move. Another alternative is to make it to where the gun actually turns at the same speed as the camera but once placed it is limited to a certain angle range until you reposition it, probably only 10 degrees in any direction should be good, perhaps 45 degrees of vertical rotation. Part of this set up process would of course be hiding it. This could help a lot with close range combat for two reasons, if you left your gun to quickly get more ammo or something then you won't even have a weapon at all, and because the set-up process will be far too slow to do in close range.
Another possible thing you could do with this is make it such that when firing it takes about a second of time in which you still get to aim but there's a visual indicator that you're about to shoot which means your enemy is probably not going to escape if you're a good shot, but his allies have a whole second to react to you.
22:30 that was the best possible clip you could have ever chosen to play in the background for the point you are making
Good video. I'm glad you acknowledge the sheer variety of shooters and how a lot of things will affect the design of ranged weapons, something that the Arch video I think didn't really do as it assumes pretty specific game type without mentioning it. Good editing too.
Just because you said you would read it, video is lovely. Interesting information and perspective with INCREDIBLE edits. P-Bean for the win!
On the topic of silencers/suppressors, the only thing they should do in tacticool games _(besides reducing damage dealt and giving you a heat signature - those internal baffles get quite hot)_ is _"unmute"_ enemy footstep sounds where the default unsupressed options would leave you with simulated hearing damage. Using attachments like these should give you more information - not take away information from your enemies. Real-life -silencers- suppressors don't make you disappear from enemy spy planes/satellites/drones, so any shooter that prides itself on realism needs to stop being advertised as "realistic" if its suppressor attachments makes you invisible to ears/maps/sensors.
But yes, sniper-type weapons definitely need to have less "sustain" capacity compared to everything else. It's not just to punish sloppy play, but also so that people using automatic weapons have longer sustain abilities where they might be able to close the distance on the sniper by laying down suppressive fire and not run out of ammunition. I also don't like how the TF2 Sniper can one-shot even one class without fully charging the scope - and the botting issue that the game now has exacerbates that design flaw. Another balancing tactic besides map design and a charge mechanic would be to make the damage dealt proportional to the distance to the target. The closest real-world analogy would be the Gyrojet pistol/carbine family of firearms that used a tiny rocket propelled round that fires itself like a whole bullet would be fired from a Portal turret - it was a failed technology that manufacturing variances in the jet exit hole angles caused it to be wildly inaccurate and spin off-target, but because it was a jet/rocket rather than a projectile propelled by a single explosion, its velocity upon exiting the muzzle was lower than when it would finally hit the target as it continued to accelerate after leaving the muzzle. I honestly don't think there is a single FPS that has this mechanic of "the further away from the target the bigger the damage", and it'd be neat to see it somehow end up in TF2 as Gyrojet carbines are the exact type of spytech silliness that the game already has in spades.
Personally, my favourite "balancing" method of snipers is by intentionally making them overpowered and then putting them in various places around the map ala Halo/Quake/Unreal Tournament/Time Splitters (the list of arcade FPS games really goes on). This way (if the map is symmetrical or at least a well-designed asymmetrical map) it's not the rifle's fault for being OP - it's your fault for letting the enemy get to it first (or you mindlessly rushing to grab it without checking if the enemy didn't make a "hard read" of what you would do and booby-trapped the sniper spawn by throwing a perfectly placed grenade). Oh hey! Maybe that's an idea for a future video? The differences between arcade and tactical shooters, or what makes an arcade shooter tick. The cousin to arcade shooters I find the most interesting is arcade shooters that mix both foot and vehicle combat (again, Halo, Unreal Tournament 3 and 2004, and to SOME extent Planetside 2 but only on a technicality as it has that mix while not being too much like ARMA despite the complete lack of on-map weapons).
If you got this far into an essay from a furry of all things, then congratulations! I hope you learned something cool or found an interesting game series to check out.
hey brother, fur is just skin with extra hair to me. not sure if that sounds disgusting. But, furry or not, great essay!
The Roblox game "Phantom Forces" has the Gyrojet pistol and rifle with that mechanic
The editing is unhinged in the best way possible. Loving this arc you are on 🤩
The editing in this video feels... UNIQUE! Watching this video feels like Im eating a really nice meal but with me eyes
14:10 zesty jesus jumpscare
The visible sniper sightline in tf2 would would also take away a downside from the Machina
Splatoon continues to have some of the best sniper design with several of the points you brought up in either a novel way (Scope Glint > Weapon glow while charging) or implemented as is. Highly recommended game series if you're looking for a new boomer shooter with a nice twist.
the biggest issue with snipers in games tend to be that:
1-they are often the ONLY good long-range option
2-they tend to be awkward to use at short range, but not less effective meaning a highly skilled sniper player will be as good at short range than they are at long range
its not for no reason that in a lot of games, cheaters flock towards sniper weapons, as they tend to be the flat out BEST option in almost all situations once the player's aim is no longer a concern
you absolutely deserve 100k plus subs dude, the vids are incredibly well made
MENTIONING PLANETSIDE INFILTRATORS AS A RANGE ISSUE IS SO UNFATHOMABLY BASED.
INSTANT SUB.
Games never need long range ever, but it’s such a common trope in games that it’s just widely accepted
This is true, lots of mechanics are widely accepted when they don't need to be. Long range at least appeals to specific players so it's usually a no-brainer to add, but it's never needed and can sometimes hurt the rest of the game.
I've been saying this for years!
And when their attempt to balance long ranged fighters is "make them weak at close range", you gave them a negligible, if not nonexistent, downside.
Wow, they're not great at close range? That's amazing, good luck getting close enough
Seems quite reductive imo, but that’s the moba and fighting game player in me.
It’s like saying denial or blue as a whole in mtg just shouldn’t exist.
Or that guile and dhalsim shouldn’t have been added to street fighter 2. And yes even in shooters there should be something to pump the breaks.
Every point made in the video is more pointing out how range just has the highest possibility for a lack of interaction between two players.
At least in mobas and fighting games there’s systems in place ether universally or within characters themselves to combat a range disparity in most cases. Where if it does cost a resource it’s self contained and or self regenerating.
It's an important part of many games. Snipers are integral to large-scale tactical shooters like Hell Let Loose and Red Orchestra. They act as recon units who can provide vital information and harrass behind enemy lines. While it can suck to randomly die to someone you didn't even know was there, getting pinned down by a sniper with your squad and coordinating to find out where they are and push them is so satisfying. Also you die immediately from every other gun anyway, so their only advantage is that they can do that from a little further
I feel the classic has better tracer rounds than the machina in TF2 because it’s much more subtle and you can miss it if you aren’t looking
It also looks cooler.
that's funny considering TF2 Classic (the mod) added something similar to the default rifle
Possible changes I’ve thought of for sniper, some probably better than others so I’m not suggesting these all be implemented together.
ADS time: self explanatory, adds an animation in which sniper has to look through his scope.
Initial ADS sway: Might be redundant with ADS time but add an initial moment of weapons sway in which a sniper needs to stabilise his aim after scoping in. Seen in games like rust.
Sniper laser hum: the full sniper’s laser becomes visible if you are close enough to it and also emits an electronic hum sound to alert you he’s trying to line up a shot.
Increased flinch: Self explanatory, increase the amount of flinch and add punishing weapon sway if you take damage scoped in. So even if he’s far away but you spot the sniper you can make pester him into missing a shot and having to reposition easier.
Lower ammo pool and add a magazine capacity: Self explanatory, works exactly like the shotgun, or a sniper in any other game.
Increase muzzle flash and add tracers for all snipers: Self explanatory.
YES!!! NEW PBEAN VIDEO!!! I love your editing so much dude, glad to see you again.
it's genuinely criminal how many good takes you have
holy shit it’s the new season of the patrick star show
It's nice to see the details of /v/ culture in the video
Excellently balanced video. Definitely agree with the TF2 example and solutions. It's what we've implemented on our balance mod, Bad Weapon Rehabilitation.
You mean that weapon rebalance server? afaik the only thing they did was add a mag, which doesn't help in the slightest. It is just annoying
It does not stop your from quick scoping, it does not prevent you from getting multi kills. It just punishes you harder for missing. Rising the skill ceiling for a class whose entire issue is that it's balance is aimed way below it's skill ceiling
@@rompevuevitos222 It helps in the ways that Patrick describes, by slowing the sniper down requiring them to be more considerate in picks rather than being able to make shots without consequence. Also, being able to make quick picks is mandatory for the pace of the game, especially where Medic exist.
@@ShakerSilver The game is literally built around not having instant picks due to long kill times. The devs themselves have said that the Sniper goes AGAINST the game's base design because of this.
When kill times are high, the only thing that matters is damage (because getting rid of the enemy is always better, specially when it's instant) and lower DPS classes like spy, engineer and medic loose value. In a game about team play that is pretty counter productive
And good players do not have to worry about consequences because they rarely miss
But assuming said player does miss often, reloading doesn't matter if your target is dead.
Only thing you're doing is making it more annoying for bad snipers
I'm kinda surprised a server about rebalancing missed such obvious points
@@rompevuevitos222 I would question where you got that admission from the devs from considering how fine-tuned the damage numbers and mechanics of the sniper were towards fulfilling his base role, despite some quirks that could be improved. Tho if it's from that alleged Uncle Dane quote than I probably don't want to hear it.
While I understand the perspective of it in a vacuum seeming incredibly unfair, because we are balancing from the perspective of the whole game it causes us to look at how sniper is balanced in the context of TF2. In the context of TF2 his role is to support his team by applying a pressure down a sightline, not unlike an engineer does in close quarters but more selectively against single targets. I do concede he has a problem, but it's not what is being discussed here.
On the issue of slower TTKs, I think that one is overstated a fair bit. While Sniper can one shot a great deal of classes, nearly every other combat class can two-shot a larger number of them (or with automatic weapons, kill them in less than 2 seconds) and can finish them off much faster in 3 shots those that sniper finish off in 2 shots. Sniper's key advantage is range, and while a big one requires far more commitment to a more sedentary method of killing, and necessitates being selective in order to be effective. Additionally, of the classes Sniper can one-shot, they are either largely out of his way - Sniper and an enemy engineer being on opposite ends of their team's backlines, or Spies appearing right behind the Sniper being unwieldy to reliably one-shot - or they are classes who he needs to be able to pick off by necessity - enemy Snipers already established in a sightline need a reliable way to countersnipe, hence why attempts to make quickscoping slower or less lethal only empowers a campy sniper, and enemy Medics who literally dictate the pace of the game with one good Uber push require a good way to reliably pick at a moment's notice that doesn't require a suicide trade from your team.
Really the biggest issue is as described in this video and that we examined on the server, that being Sniper having too much sustainability and being too effective at maintaining pressure. This is why we advocate for the clip-based system, not to nerf an already bad sniper but to equally moderate the rate at which a good sniper can sustain a sightline. By adding a clip and longer reload time, it eases that pressure he applies and allows for more opportunity for the enemy team to challenge that area, while forcing a Sniper to be more selective in their shots if they want to maintain pressure by going for the most important picks lest he be caught out needing to reload at the wrong moment.
@@ShakerSilver They where asked: "If you could remove any class, what would it be?"
And they said sniper, because the class was not balanced for people with hundreds of hours (like all other classes)
But sniper specifically has such a high skill ceiling and reward for reaching it, that it makes it completely busted in such scenarios
He is supposed to be support, to apply pressure. But he's not just the class with the best kill rate, but the best defense class in the game
He does NOT fulfill a support role, he fulfills a defensive/damage role.
When the cart is being pushed, who is the best at stopping it? Sniper
When the point is being captured? also Sniper
When a team mate needs help breaking a stalemate? Not sniper, it's either spy, medic or demo
In TFC sniper was actually a support class. It had to charge for a long time to get actual kills, the aim wasn't instant with mouse movement (so hiding the dot wasn't as simple to do) and you would inflict a movement debuff if you hit the enemy's legs (because you actually had a reason to do it due to not being so ridiculously powerful)
Sniper is completely broken atm, because his role shouldn't be to instantly kill anything in his sight line, but it is right now
This is super well thought out. I love that you showcase both sides in a non-biased way. Pretty much everyone that makes a video like this usually either whine about imbalance or act elitist about skill. This is the best mid ground I could have ever asked for. I don't fully agree with the Sniper changes, but some of them like the tracer rounds are perfect.
A well thought out argument! However: Huntsman.
Because yeet skeet my fleet of flint-tipped mini-logs while partaking of Delino Plaza, ear diddle version!
Mania's a helluva drug innit?
Very good video overall. The editing was spot on and kept me intrested all the way through, non of the points felt agrssive like "AAAAH IF YOU HATE IT DON'T PLAY IT" sort of way. More of a "This is how it works, people don't like it, here's how we can fix it". I liked the animation and IRL talking instead of using a PNG of your pfp that lot of people use (me also guility of it). And using plenty of games to compare off. 10/10 video you did a great job ☺👍
I'm not wearing any pants right now.
i really adore your style of editing and presenting the topics. like i can really see how passionate you are about it :D the chapter segments are so fun to watch
Didn't finish the video yet, but I wanna point out something in regard to the "range problem in other genres". You briefly showed gameplay from Starcraft 2 in this short segment, and it reminded me of my most played game on steam, Company of Heroes 2. I'm not a high-level player by any means, but what I notice to be the biggest problem, both high and low elo, is the use of mobile mortars. Long range IS extremely useful, and has it's trade-offs, that being, utter shit at doing anything other than bonking you with heavy rocks from a kilometer away. Thing is, when you use a sniper in a shooter game, you're ALWAYS at a close-range disadvantage, but in company, you don't have a mortar, you have a mortar, a light armored vehicle, 2-3 infantry squads, and whatever else. The mortar is ESSENTIAL to play company of heroes, but good God is it a pain in the scrotum to do something about it (other than making your own mortar and playing a completely different game within that match, of whack-a-mole with the enemy mortar).
Ah when I played that game my strategy eventually evolved into mortars and katyusha rocket cars 😂.
Two of the solutions which are often suggested, even in this comment section: 1) inverse damage fall-off (damage rise-on?) and 2) charge time. They do indeed fix quite a lot of the problems, but they have one fundamental flaw: They are completely unintuitive.
In an arcade shooter like TF2, filled with sci-fi or straight up magic, this can be justified. But in more realism-ish shooters, like CS:GO, why on Earth should a bullet deal more damage the longer it is flying, or the longer it stays in the chamber?
I am saying this, because I see a lot of people suggesting this as the holy grail of balance, for games where it makes no narrative sense.
Actually fun fact there is a pistol that (theoretically) gets more effective the longer the bullet travels because the bullets are rocket propelled! I mean, the gun wasn't very effective from what I understand, but there is real life precedent for bullets to get more powerful the longer they travel so hey. I mean, more realism focused fps games take liberties with science and junk. Take the minigun for instance. Plenty of "realistic" fps games have player characters wielding them in their arms, which just... no. No no no.
@@snarkyginger1158 As another example, think about how often even realistic shooters use regular shotguns (not sawed-off shotguns, just regular shotguns).
I think along with your ideas to fix tf2's sniper info problem, is also team communication. Ive seen people making community fixes to add a "Sniper!" voice command to the list of commands and honesty it works well with what you had to say. Interesting video and stuff you got to say! Also personally, I think Splatoon 3 handles snipers the worst. E-liter 4k sniper on mincemeat metalworks can watch the entirety of the map near their spawn behind mid point. Its insane.
Fun fact: there actually is a tf2 sniper call-out, however, it works differently than normal. This sniper callout is exclusive to the Mann vs Machine mode when a robot sniper spawns and your character automatically says it. Implementing a voice command like that would be a good idea since they already have the voice lines.
@@ARandomPersonFromTheNet yeah I've seen mods of people making it, only thing is that the scout's, demo's, sniper's, and spy's voicelines cut off weird because they don't have the call outs in MvM and they have to resort to sentence-mixing
I disagree with your opinion on shounics experiment, I really believe his method is one of the best ways any sniper rifle like TF2 (almost instantaneously, Infinite range, single bullet kill) has ever been handled and if you don't want to change the fundamentals of the sniper rifle (like making it take a long time to charge or taking multiple shots to kill) a ray on the sniper is in my opinion the best way to do it.
why would anyone play a class thats success is built on positioning and aim where they can have their positioning invalidated and aim. I think you just get owned online and cry about it.
@@ghostface5559 Billy, stop yelling at the mirror
It's really annoying how at least half the video is dedicated to stuff that anyone watching this would already know. Like man we clicked on a video about video game snipers, please give us the benefit of the doubt and assume we know this shit already or can figure it out on our own. Or at least get through it faster.
What did you want the video to be about then?
I love the way splatoon does this personally. Yes it still has problems, but it has many areas it can attempt to balance range in. Generally as range increases, painting capacity decreases. Same goes with damage and paint. Painting is really important in the game as being in your own paint lets you effectively dash, or remain hidden, while the enemies slows and damages you. Ontop of this the chargers (snipers) have a charge time before they fire, a trail like in shounics video, and glow like crazy. The other big option for long range, the splatlings, are cumbersome and need to be charged up to fire, and fire a burst relative to their charge time.
All this to say i quite enjoy the balance of splatoon range, even if its current iteration isnt perfect, its multiple facets for balance can be very useful.
Really in Splatoon's case, it's the really the linear map design that causes long range to be more powerful than it should. There needs to be more flanks.
@@ConcavePgons agreed, though snipers aren't as dominant as you'd expect in the pro scene with the maps
Holy fuck you have amazing editing.
Edit: The shadows are especially a nice touch.
22:30 This right here. I am so tired of games having overly obnoxious balance at times and I'm glad you got the perfect words to describe on how it's unfun when players optimize things to the point of even defending absurd stuff, and I mean everything in general and not just snipers in games. Thanks pal! 👍
These are the kinds of videos I like to put on in the background while I do other stuff... But this dude, Mr Peaburt Beanmann.... He puts so much into the asthetic aspect of things with goofy animations, relevant examples, and informative diagrams that I can't JUST listen, I gotta watch to get the full enjoyment. Well freakin dun :3
Another certified Patrick "p-bean" classic!
older video but this is how im finding you. And I gotta say this video is really really well made. Firstly, it makes it easier to more or less understand range and how it works effectively in games, I prior to this video I had an opinion on ranged classes in games being unfair, without even a proper argument as to why (I was the idiot that’d run in the same sightline then get surprised as to why I died). That being said, you’ve skewered my belief of what is fair and unfair. Theres a difference between having an argument and not knowing how to convey it, and just being flat out wrong, I was wrong. So thanks for that. The video is really well paced I felt too and the editing was funny and kept my attention long enough to let me understand what was happening in your own unique way. If this is how the rest of your content is i’ll definitely watch more. Solid work man
I just came up with an idea. Instead of doing a set amount of dmg, a bullet does a set amount of percent of the hp. So if you have like 100 hp it does 75% of the total hp
Neat idea
DMG floor is needed because imagine a 10hp player getting 8 (7,5~) dmg from a point blank 50. cal
Your transitions make me feel like I had a drug trip
i've spent the entire video sitting on the edge of my chair and thinking OH MY GOD THIS GUY MUST HAVE SPENT AT LEAST AN HOUR ON THIS 6 SECOND MOTION GRAPHIC THAT APPEARS JUST ONCE. having an experience in CG can be a curse sometimes. congrats on putting it all together, its amazing
This is incredibly well made
Makee, make, make the (sniper) rifle shoot PROJECTILES that have VELOCITY with DROP instead of instant, hitscan death beam, giving flack to the sniper when scoping in too hard, will make game with open map/tactical shooter feel more fair and less like a camping simulator.
Sniping is just the fps equivalent of fishing.
Great take on the sniper issue, wonderful editing and pacing too. Very rare to see someone understand that overall fun > balance.
Dude, your editing style is so unique. Keep up the good work!
i genuinely think that the "rough around the edges" kind of editing style really sets this channel apart from most others
god damn this editing is high quality. I can't believe this video doesn't even have more than 100,000 views.
More people would think that sniping/long range weaponry and classes are fair if there were reasons outside of “it’s hard” to explain why they’re fair. Most of the time that’s all people can come up with, as if I should be content with the fact that I died to someone I couldn’t see, couldn’t damage, and couldn’t react to simply because they’ve logged more hours in the game than me.
I'd say they are correct to think so. Every game should have an option to give you better benefits (such as oneshots) depending on the amount of time and skill you bring with you into the game. But it should always have a massive drawback that ALSO requires skill to play around, and can be used to shut you down if you arent playing optimally (things like very low health, slow fire rate, long reloads or such). It should, in my opinion, always veer into the direction of a glass cannon, and have options like alternative routes or long range chip damage weapon that can mess you up if you arent on top of everything constantly. That way, people can be rewarded for putting more time or having more skill, but without taking all enjoyment out of the game because of no counterplay
People are constantly giving on reasons why sniping (i guess you mean tf2) is fair, but y'all just choose to ignore it.
@@Mf_CHIP and far more people give far more reasons as to why it’s not fair or fun to play against in the slightest, but those are ignored too
@@Geebanger0 because 90% of those boil out to abusing occam's razor
@@Mf_CHIP please elaborate
Long range is fine, as long as it can be countered and/or make it not instakill
Another day another video about shooters completely ignoring splatoons existence
it's a bit strange. I thought this game is popular in the English-speaking community (Splatoon 3 is not popular in my country)
I've gotten lots of comments about it, especially on the Payload video I did a while back.
No doubt the reason is because all the Splatoon games are Switch exclusive.
@@P-Bean yeah, I'm not surprised or really blaming anyone for not including it, it's just funny seeing things like "both sides can push the objective!!!" "Snipers but you can see were they're looking??" as major shake ups when the game you play the most has had that and then some for a while, like give it 6 months and we'll have a new FPS fad of "capture the flag but the flag is a powerful but slow weapon that overrides your class and reveals your location"
Splatroon
I played QC:DE and i like how they balanced the railgun there.
It does slightly less damage than other burst damage weapons, could be charged up by scoping to do as much damage as a rocket and it has slow fire rate. It also has a clear bullet trace and charging time is just as long as the cooldown.
All this makes for a reliable long range damage dealer that is well balanced in my opinion.
Very good video. I think it’s one of the few critics/essays about snipers that understands the attraction of the playstyle. (I say that because from what I’ve seen, many try to find a solution but forgetting to keep it immersive and not taking away what makes sniping fun.)
Only disagree with the silencer and “pussy” arguments; but then again, I’m the type of Sniper that likes to run around and quickscope.
The Mosin Sniper being labelled that way is an extremely meta Hunt reference and I kek'ed.
I'm just saying there's a reason battle royale games all share the meme of being sniped across the map after ten minutes of looting
Visual God, when it comes to editing
You should take a look at Splatoon for some balancing examples. ProChara's channel is a great introduction to Splatoon 3's balancing.
Splatcharger and Ballpoint for life.
So-called "Scout Mains" when a good Sniper joins the enemy team
ive always thought it would be cool to give tf2 a l4d style music system, because then you could have something similar to the witches theme that plays when you get close to the snipers laser
great video
Felt like I was having a fever dream
9/10
Blanket-nerfing a long-range character/class sort of defeats the purpose of it in my eyes. A good sniper class/weapon - _to me_ - should reward consistently hitting your shots and repositioning often to keep the enemy guessing. It shouldn't punish players who are good at those things just because the interaction is inherently unfair, but since _all_ players will make mistakes, those mistakes should have harsher consequences for long-range characters.
The rate of fire could progressively get slower and slower either based on how many consecutive shots you've missed or how low the ammo count is. Standing in direct sunlight could cause a scope glint, but standing in shadows could also dim the scope when you zoom in, requiring the player to consider their position before committing to it. The penalty for missing your shots would also force snipers to think critically when cornered - the sniper rifle is still _powerful_ at close range, but missing even one shot could seriously limit their effectiveness in the future, and without using their secondary, they're mostly doomed if they're cornered by more than one player.
The enemy player _should_ be given information (even against good snipers), but I think that the indicator should be dependent on the sniper's mistakes. In my theoretical game, shots that hit are invisible, but missed shots are tracer rounds. Holding in the scope for too long could cause its laser-marker to gradually extend, until eventually it becomes an always-visible beam with a 30s cooldown to disappear - in other words, taking too long to shoot gives your position away, OR forces you to look away to keep the beam hidden, sacrificing agency in potentially-critical moments in exchange for not being seen.
This way, snipers who don't reposition often will give their position away more often through scope glint or the beam, and snipers who don't hit their shots consistently would be punished by firing more tracer rounds and taking longer overall to fire. Only a player who can consistently do _both_ would operate with full cover and efficiency - which is what I see as the reward for most sniper characters in games.
Being good doesn't mean you deserve to steamroll everything
Sniper is literally an instant kill at any range. This is simply unbalanced, so the thing should either be removed or reworked. Unless the game it's meant to be casual, you can't just ignore the balance issues because "they earned it"
Increasing consequences just makes good sniper players rarer. Which makes balance worse, the class less fun and the entire thing feel worse for everyone involved.
@@rompevuevitos222 Nobody deserves anything - good players will just naturally start steamrolling players who are less skilled. In games that prioritize individual play, failing to reward good players makes the game less fun to play. In games that prioritize team cooperation, a sniper won't always be the best tool for the job, even in a skilled player's hands.
Increasing consequences doesn't make good snipers rarer, it just balances snipers who are only good at shooting or only good at positioning. Most importantly, it makes the most optimal playstyle one that's fair for shorter-ranged characters. That makes things feel _better_ for everyone involved.
Another idea to add on is that either the longer you zoom or the more shots you miss, the greater you tunnel vision becomes - possibly by blurrying the edges of the screen progressively more and more. This way, close-ranged classes will always have some reliable way to reach snipers.
I would love to see the concept of reverse-falloff ever actually used in a game. If you stop shotguns being useful at long range by making them deal less damage at long range, why not just make snipers less useful at close range by making them deal less damage at close range? Why even leave open the opportunity for the crackedest gamer ever to throw out bodyshot after bodyshot like it's nothing?
And even when not doing this, games REALLY like to act like one second between shots is instant death for a sniper. Lean into that shit, make it hurt to miss a shot. For all its flaws, Brink implemented snipers exceptionally well with its high-damage option taking over three entire seconds and a forced camera blur + unzoom every single shot!
I feel like snipers would feel more fair if the laser sight glowed or something so that it's WAY harder to hide while STILL not giving away a snipers position too bad. I think the reason why the Garand still pops up in games is that the weapon itself is balanced for games, it has a LOUD distinct loading sound, it wobbles a lot because of it's weight, the recoil on it keeps it from popping off too hard, and the clip can only take 8 rounds, so it's high damage output is understandable in games. I feel like snipers should have effective ranges and NEVER have a side arm for close quarters, just a smaller caliber secondary sniper rifle effective at medium range OR an assault rifle that is most effective at medium range but kicks so wildly it's useless up close. Snipers should be FUCKED if they can't keep up an effective range, I feel like snipers also move too fast widow maker can swing around like spider man and Sniper in TF2 has a decent movement speed AND FUCKING MELEE BACK STAB ARMOR so he is an OP melee fighter too, since snipers have such a HUGE range they should also be the SLOWEST class to really make them have to get tactical about their positioning and help mitigate camping since, shooting SHOULD giveaway your position and make you a prime target, like IRL snipers you should take your shoot and get moving to find a new target before you become one.
Listing all used music AND TIMECODES in a pastebin, what a legend
Delicious. Finally, some good fucking food.
I'm happy SOMEONE finally decided to notice that people hate sniper because he is annoying and the sniper's pressure is not interactive enough. These fuckers are always like "sniper is balanced because it takes skill" BITCH I DON'T CARE, MAKE IT FUN TO FIGHT OR YOU GET THE NAIL BAT.
Poggers vid, you are getting really good at this :)
God man, the Spy Headline was hilarious but ear *GRATING*
Brug since when is Elton John a tf2 player