Baron’s Catholicism video had a profound affect on my daughter when she was in her later teens, and she is a faithful Catholic adult. Bishop Barron does get a lot of unjust flack, but it seems that often happens when you are doing something good. So in a way, the flack is a good sign for him.
I am a 'Traditional" Catholic, and I was deeply touched by Bishop Barron's Joyful Mysteries rosary. I can absolutely see where he brings atheists into the faith. That is a beautiful, real. thing to celebrate, and I mean that with all sincerity, I am SO happy to hear that ... . I think even BB's most ardent critics can't deny the wonderful ability he has to bring the true messages of love of God to the people. ... And so, I can see why it must turn you off to hear. anything critical. I will try to explain so, Please try to understand the distinction - what the "critics" are saying. and how that could possibly reconcile with the beauty of what he said that has drawn you to the Faith. learning the faith - both the nuts and bolts and feeling the profound effects of graces, is a journey. There is the Traditional, the "orthodox' faith (lower case o,). it is derived from the Deposit of Faith that goes all the way back to Christ and the Apostles. Nothing can be added, subtracted, or changed in any way. Since around 1960, "Modernism" has invaded the Church. it goes directly against the unchangeable Tradition (upper case T, that is derived from Deposit of the Faith, which is different than regular definition of tradition.) As much as I like Bishop Barron , he has been unclear when asked for specific clarity, on certain subjects, most notably the practice of homosexuality. I watched that one video with utter disbelief, but you can watch it and judge for yourselves. The MAIN goal of every priest should be the saving of souls. And Jesus made it clear that we must embrace ALL that he commanded (in both sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, which is reflected clearly in the traditional , unchangeable catechism of the Faith). Critics of Bishop Barron are extremely concerned about his messages leading people in the wrong direction. When asked pointedly, anything less than clear teaching, according to the dogma of the faith, is a grievous matter bc it can lead people into mortal sin, which is contrary to the salvation of their souls. it is that simple. Jesus said that those who follow His commands will be persecuted, and some avoid the needed clarity that goes against current times. But all priests have a duty to be extremely clear about such teaching. Now, that is not all there is to the faith, there is much much more to it, in order for people to embrace the true faith of God's, which is all about love of God and fellow "man". We are NOT to teach partial truth, bc that is deception that leads in the wrong direction. This is why many are truly praying for Bishop Barron to teach according to the dogma with clarity. I feel not worthy in a way, to say this, given all of Bishop Barron's knowledge, his position as a bishop, etc, so I say this w humility that might not be apparent. But I hope this gives you some ideas. Blessings!
@@finallythere100 that’s a very well thought out explanation and I tend to agree that his and other church leaders’ lack of clarity can be a cause of scandal which helps no one.
@@PatrickSwackhammer - TY. I do NOT speak for Bishop Barron , per se, but the real war going on in the Post V2 Conciliatory Church w the apparent false / Counterfeit Church coming out of the Vatican, it's complicated and seems to make sense only in that context, with all of the political stuff, infiltrators and other factors. We did NOT have this problem prior to Vatican 2, so it all has to do w the errors of Modernism.
Bishop Barron has the approach that he is going to wrap you in God's love and explain things in a way that expresses God's deep longing to bring you home to Him (God). So many people desperately need to encounter God this way, particularly people outside of faith who have a deeply critical eye towards God. Where Bishop Barron gets flack is from people who want him to take a harder line on things, and they aren't wrong to expect that of a Bishop, but they are wrong to expect that all the time regardless of the audience. That line of thinking is wrong. Christ himself tied a cord into knots and drove the money changers from the temple. He called the Pharisees a den of vipers for using scripture to control people. He stood on the mountain and told everyone that no matter what you do, you can't live up to God's expectations, but then he also stopped the stoning of a woman caught in the act of adultery - and told her to go and sin no more. A person who cannot understand a situational approach for the larger good has missed the point.
Matt, people who are not near a TLM may not have "control" per se, but there are literally dozens, hundreds, of stories in which a community got together, asked the local bishop for a TLM, and the request being granted. The laity have a role.
I am a convert solely because of the Traditional Latin Mass and Faith. As a father the Novus Ordo Church repels me, it is purged of the Supernatural, Mystical, and Ascetical, all the core elements that formed me as a Catholic. As a man I need to be challenged by confronting my own will and to embrace suffering - only the TLM provides this formation.
Really? I find all those things in the NO I attend . Beware of disordered passions-even spiritual ones . Read the great traditional masters of the spiritual life.
Are you sure it's the NO itself or is it the way it's celebrated? Chances are it's how it's celebrated and a career liturgist or confused clergy is the reason things are the way they are....
@@rosepistilli223 It’s all the Catholic doctrine that was removed in the prayers, rituals, gestures, symbols, chants, etc. This doctrine formed Catholics for 2K years. The committee that created the N.O. in 1969 removed this doctrine and put protestant-modernist doctrine in its place, assembly-meal-universalist theology instead of Catholic. For example - only 13% of the orations going back to the 4th century(Pope Damasus) were retained. How arrogant; countless generations preserved these prayers intact only for a committee to delete them. As a sinner I need the hard truths of these prayers to save me.
@@nadreb13 I truly believe the Novus Ordo (reverently celebrated) has a place in the Church. It's the sometimes suppression of TLM that fills me with dismay.
Hallo, thank you for posting this. When i lived in indonesia, i used to went to daily mass everyday at 5.45 till 6.30. It was always full. There wasnt any instrument, nor homily. Just the eucharis, reading, prayer, and singing. Those were the most beautiful time in the day. There is something special about catholic mass. It can be done in the most glorious way, but also very simple. Any language is fine, because the holy spirit has its own language, which is love.
Thank you Matt for the last minutes of this clip. The island I live on has no TLM parish. The Novus Ordo bashing on the social media has been hurting me for a while now (American, there is no passionate debate I know of in French), so your remark relieved me.
"There's enough here to become a saint." God bless you Matt! I felt conflicted when I was told that I should go to a TLM, even if I have to drive an hour. I decided against it, because I want to be rooted in the town where I live. I'm grateful for our masses and our priests, they give my family the opportunity to worship.
I see what you mean. I like to go with family to Mass. I do like the Latin Mass sometimes however my entire family just goes to the ordinary Mass, I feel as though people ought to go as a family to Mass if possible.
In addition, referencing Matt's statement on "dieting", you are feeding your soul the good food of the Eucharist in communion with your family and friends. Maybe you can use the 80/20 rule and indulge your heart at TLM occasionally.
That was an excellent message that Matt gave. (I didn't know about the TLM and the traditional Community outside of my parish when my kids were growing up. I'd give anything to go back in time and change that. and make the hour drive. I, too, wanted them centered at the local level, but I see now that was not the way.) ... I understand your position, and I urge you to keep a close eye on the heresies of Francis creeping into YOUR parish's Novus Ordo Mass. It often starts in the Mass Intentions, and then in sermons. There is a lot going on daily w "Pope Francis", that is highlighted also by Dr. Taylor Marshall and on Return to Tradition channels (Dr. Anthony Stine). MAJOR unprecedented heresies, changes are expected in the next year. The Novis order Mass varies, but some Churches, such as in Chicago have 2 married "dad" giving the Father's Day sermon, championing homosexual unions as sacred. Look at the German bishops, and keep track of the 2023 Synod. I wish you and your family all the best! Blessings.
I feel what you said at 4:25 on such a deep level Matt. I go to FSU and am really involved in the Catholic Student Union, and me and a couple of other people have been working at introducing more traditional things in the student Mass so we can help the liturgy become more reverent. But sometimes I think to myself, even with the praise and worship and guitar (which I would rather not have in the liturgy), if I humbled myself down and really prayed with it, the spiritual nourishment from the mass in that way can still make me a saint if I let it. It’s like the beauty of the faith, maybe not in accidence, but at least in substance is still present, which is enough to transform hearts
I think this is really really important to realize. We can't get too caught up in the particulars of worship; otherwise, worship becomes about the particulars and not the Object.
Yep, it's about the Consecration. As long as it's present and valid, the language and the music are secondary considerations. The Church is universal, and there's room for different particular elements so long as they don't get in the way of the reason for the Mass, i.e., the real, physical presence of Christ. That's enough to get me caught up in the Consecration every time.
Keep it outside the Mass. It tends to deflate the holiness with worldly and feel-good efforts. Hey: organize a video-watching night! Play the whole Shia interview for them.
As a child of the 60's and 70's I went through the changes to the mass and couldn't stand it, especially the guitar music, even though I didn't understand the Latin mass and didn't really understand why I didn't like the change. So after years of my participating and non participating in the Novus Ordo mass and contemplating (for a moment) leaving the Catholic faith, I asked God to help me to love the "new" mass. I started to pay close attention to the prayers even meditating on them after mass. I also listen and watched Bishop Barron's The Mass (I believe that's what it's called) and Fr. Mike Schmidt's talk on the mass which helped me to understand everything that goes on in the mass. I can tell you now that sometimes when I say the prayers (Holy, holy, holy...)I begin to cry and when the priest lifts up the host my heart is overflowing with love for my Lord and it is all I can do from keeping me sobbing at that time. I wonder often what the priest is thinking when I go up to communion with tears streaming down my face. I love and respect both the N.O. and T.L.M.
This is what it’s all about. We just get in the way! The ancient Romans and Jews were probably not huge fans of Christian liturgy, let alone eating the body and blood of God, but after experiencing the immense love of God: “to whom shall we go?!”
My initial experiences of the TLM, coming from a "Boomus Ordo" upbringing, and then being a revert, were not great. As a revert I wanted to participate in the Mass, which required great effort from me just to do in English. Then at a Latin Mass, it felt like the Mass was happening and I just happened to be in the room. How was I supposed to participate? Was I presumptuous for daring I should be participating? (No, it is grave obligation to participate at the Mass.) But Shia presents an excellent Paradigm Shift. The Latin Mass is happening, and I'm invited to witness a spectacular secret. I knew from listening to others that the Latin Mass would grow on me, so I've been going back, and reading the Benedictus. One day, I will be able to read in English faster than my priest can recite from memory in Latin!
I prepared and educated myself with the red missal for $4.00 online. It has all the prayers in English and Latin. Over 2-3 masses I follow along quite easily. You PRAY as you go.
One thing that might help to remember while at TLM (at least in the beginning) is that our participation in the Mass should first & foremost always be the participation of the heart, mind, and soul being lifted to praise & worship our Lord, being at the foot of His Cross during the sacrifice, and giving thanks for all He's done. This can be done at a Latin Mass without knowing a word of what's being said, by orienting all our attention to what is happening at the altar while listening to the inner voice of God, the Holy Spirit and just resting in that prayerful existence. (Example: what is our heart experiencing, is it fear & constantly being turned back to self because we want to understand & perform all the right actions? Or is it being lifted up to something higher, outside of ourselves, to our God & our Creator?) I had only known NO masses and it enhanced my idea that I had to earn God's love by DOING vs the short time I've attended TLM and finding it's about BEING His, BEING invited into relationship with Him, and BEING restful in Him & letting Him lead me! (But that's just my experience, and this may not be meaningful to you at all, haha ☺️) Many prayers & blessings on your journey, Patrick!
Wow!! Very based. I thought of a good way to put it. Most NO’s I have to intentionally “suspend my disbelief” or use my imagination and ignore many things to really try to get my interior prepared enough to receive the Lord and understand even a piece of the reality of what is happening. At the TLM, I often feel like the reality is imposed on me. And with the same amount of effort as I would have to exert at another form of the Mass, I am able to dive extremely deep into the mysteries. But even on a day where I’m down or distracted, I can still understand that our Lord is present because of the top down imposition of Truth that was carefully crafted since the dawn of our Church.
I try to get to a TLM at least once a month but am a daily communicant at a reverent NO mass. From the peace blessing, one priest goes directly onto the Agnus Dei, while a lot of parishioners are jumping out of their pews still offering the sign of peace. They can’t seem to break out of that habit.
What I like is something I’m just going through so much that a low Mass is perfect so I can be left in peace for deep spiritual contemplation and not feel obligated or embarrassed if I am simply not in the place to participate.
Just a word of encouragement... If you are being prayerful & contemplating the things of God during Mass then you ARE participating ✝️ That's what God has been healing me of lately is the constant requirement of outward performance to an upward inner life with Him (doing vs being) and the being is what He is calling us all to!! From one who suffers much, to another, my prayers are with you!
Thank you for talking about this I saw the video of him converting to a Catholic my friend sent me the video and I watched it and I thought it was very good and I’m happy that you came Catholic and also thank you for your podcast I appreciate it
Another thing I wanted to tell you is can you make your videos a little bit longer when you’re talking about something like this to me it seem that was a little short but thank you for the video
Spanish Mass is awesome! Funny story - we were visiting family one Christmas and went to a local church for mass. We just picked a mass time and went. Once we sat down we noticed that everyone else was wearing cowboy hats. It didn't occur to me that most were hispanic because we live in Florida and that's normal. Then the music started and we realized we had gone to Spanish Mass HAHAHAH! We loved it! That happened to us at three different churches, three years in a row! Now we go to Spanish Mass for Christmas every year on purpose because it is so great! English Mass on Christmas is so sad! It feels like a funeral! Why? We are celebrating the birth of Christ! We do go to English mass every week, but for Christmas it's Spanish for us!
Just sharing my experience as a 36yr old guy experiencing Latin Mass for the very first time.. It was so foreign to me yet so attractive and amazing. Even though I didn't understood much, also (temptation to confess) I fell asleep because it was lengthy, all in all I want to dig it, scrape the surface and see what is the beauty and essence of it all.. I want to experience it once again.. That's basically it.. Oh are there any online Latin Mass? Or are there any Cathecism or study on that very beautiful tradition?
There a many on line . I like St John Cantius. You can see a low TLM and a high TLM(excerpt on First Sundays of the month). But you can also see the Novus Ordo with all traditional options either entirely in Latin except for homily / readings or primarily in English but with Gregorian Latin chants for all of the propers and much of the ordinaries .
I had a similar experience: Went to my first latin mass a month ago (I’m 29), 2 hours away from my town. I was really tired and just let go of trying to follow everything and tried to appreciate the beauty of the mass and pray with that. It was similar to how I pray when singing sacred music in my choral goup… a kind of just letting go, which is a big deal for me. To me, it feels like i’m praying by listening, whereas in NO i pray by more with speech/active prayer. And for a person who feels the need to have things under control the latin mass was… freeing. I’ll try to go as much as I can, whenever I’m close to a church that celebrates TLM! Still have no problem with my local NO, though!
we love the latin mass and go when we can but you are so right! In the novus ordo Our Lord absolutely is present and speaks to us even if its not done reverently. My husband and I are converts from protestantism & even in the novus ordo we felt the power of the liturgy & the sacredness of it! The latin mass just knocked it out of the park & hooked us even deeper into our new found Catholic faith
I love beauty and reverence, and I seek it - but I don't go to "Latin Mass" or "Novus Ordo." ...I go to MASS. Not trying to be prideful or judgmental, but Matt is right. There is enough for you to be a saint, if you commit. If Latin Mass moves you, seek it out. Maybe you're more at home in a (hopefully) reverent Novus Ordo. Go for it. They are both your inheritance.
They aren’t the same so the distinction is important. The same with the Divine Liturgy. No one would say the Divine Liturgy is bad, and it is still a mass, but it is asinine to say, “I don’t go to a TLM or a DL, I go to a MASS” because while they are all masses, they are all different because the rituals are different.
Best answer ever. We should not say that Latin Mass "is better" than Novus Ordo. Both, if well done (yes, there are also liturgical abuses in TLM), are beautiful. What matters most is that God is present in both!
As an Orthodox convert from Catholicism, the interview was nice. I’m glad this effort is at least turning people to Christ, regardless of the theological differences. We can cover that separately.
As an Orthodox Christian it saddens me to see people yearning for a traditional Liturgy, which we never lost, and have their church actively work against them. Shia talking about the Latin Mass is exactly how I feel about the Orthodox Liturgy.
Many people are criticizing the "how come" of Bishop Barron, because he "doesn't understand". That "how come" is what gives us more of Shia's thoughts on this.
I played various instruments while ministering at local churches for probably 10 years or so, with the lockdowns and things putting a stop to it; I did the Hillsong United type of stuff. While I do miss the camaraderie, I can definitely see where Shia is coming from. Like Qoheleth said, to everything there is a season.
This sort of casual and dreary hand waving defence of modernists in the Church is more obscene to me then the modernists themselves because of how servile and self serving your apathy is. It’s one thing to not care and choose to be of no help or use on this issue, but it’s another to delude yourself into thinking your selfish neglect is the RIGHT thing. Either explain yourself or be honest with yourself that you just don’t care and want to stop caring
@@hairypawter8475 tell me about it. If any "Christian" calls Jesus Christ the "preferred way" to heaven without coming back and saying my bad I was wrong, well your criticism should be eternal my friends.
I don’t appreciate that the norvous Ordo is just assumed that it has to have a “praise & worship band” I have attended a mass where they are rocking out to what I am accustomed too as a more reverent moment during the mass. Which felt off. I am also ver new and don’t know what I am talking about. My parish does a Norvous Ordo with just a simple piano with the chants in English & what not. It is supremely reverent. They also offer a Latin mass as well once a week.
I recently started attending the TLM and it is night and day from the Norvus Ordo, however your analogy of a person who knows the best diet yet fails to eat correctly is spot on. Saints are made from Grace and our doing of Gods will, not the liturgy. Great insight Matt
I learned about SHIA a few months ago. His name was mentioned by a Priest who was celebrating Holy Mass, on the day of The Solemnity of Christ. In his Homily he spoke about We were created, we are captured( our fallen humanity) We've been rescued, and most importantly, what is Our Response? He goes on to say, "I know you think these words are from long ago and you think they don't apply to us in this modern world." He then speaks of SHIA, a famous actor whose life has been transformed NOW in our times!! So here I am now learning about SHIA, and the Padre PIO Movie, that I've yet to see. Hearing about his conversion , his experience is moving me closer to Christ!!!❤❤
Dr. Scott Hahn came into the Church through the mass which was the Novus Ordo... I think too much discussion about the differences between the two forms of the Latin Rite feeds into the controversy and when the Holy Father weighs in on it with his letters and directives, it then snowballs into attacks on the Holy Father as if to say the Laity know more than the entire clergy across the whole world put together. Some of the arguments for the Tridentine Mass are like as if there wasn't any liturgy prior to St. Pius V. Yes the Tridentine Mass is more other worldly than the Novus Ordo, but my mother who attended the Tridentine Masses as a kid feels very strongly that the Novus Ordo is more relatable than the Tridentine Masses she attended as a child. And I guess there are many "oldies" who feel the opposite. In both sides of the "liturgical" divide, I guess we are letting the pelegianistic mindset creep in where in everything is about how we do things rather than allowing God to do things. I mean St John Paul II said Mass both in the extraordinary form and the novus ordo and Mother Theresa attended both forms of the Rite, why are we who admire both these modern day saints arguing over which form of the rite is better. And if the new form has come in, there's a reason and it has come in with the consent of all the bishops and the signatory of the Holy Father St. Paul VI. And if Pope Francis is making stricter norms around the celebration of the extraordinary form, then what's the matter. And if folks feel it is their right... then we need to remember what Fr. Mike Schmitz has said concerning Rights and Gifts... Gifts are not earned and can never be a right. The Holy Eucharist, the Liturgies (past forms and present), the Sacrament including the Church are Gifts from God and we are all the least deserving of them. Let's be grateful for them and stop squabbling about which is better, and having rights over any and all of these gifts.
Matt, take a look at the prayers from the Novus Ordo vs Latin Mass side by side and look at how they stripped the worship out of the Holy Mass! Also, look at the demographics of Mass attendance and you will find younger people being drawn to the Latin Mass and leaving Novus Ordo parishes.
While I agree with much of what you said, it's important to note that there are FAR more NO parishes than EF parishes. Also, the average commute to the local EF in my diocese is over an hour for the parishioners. Additionally, there were significant changes made from the Old Latin into the Vulgate. Loads of liturgical changes have been made in Tridentine rite that resulted in the modern EF, but none were ever as drastic as adding the NO. Keep in mind, however, that the pastoral aims of the NO were different from the pastoral aims of the EF.
The answer seems simple to me. Allow both to exist. Keep the ancient tradition for those who want to worship that way. I don’t understand poor Francis actively trying to suppress it. The diversity of the Catholic Church is what makes it beautiful.
I feel part of the problem is priests, bishops, and lay people have allowed the Mass to lose its sacredness. When I go wary to pray, it is like a total social scene. We need reverence and time for preparation in my opinion to meet our Savior in the Eucharist
Yeah, when I would go to the NO parish close to me they would see me praying and still come over and interrupt me. I’d be praying and it would be obvious and they’d come over, nudge my should and want me to shake their hand. And one time I almost flipped pews because this one guy kept making jokes with people. I told him people were trying to prepare for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and he was like, “I’m sorry you feel that way, but it’s also a celebration at the Lord’s Table and so a social thing”. I started shaking really bad (I go from 0 to 100 with anger at specific things) and said, “YOU CAN SOCIALIZE OUTSIDE! PRAY IN HERE!” I’m sure he stopped because he saw my body language, knew I was in the military, and it would be a bad idea to press the point further. Not something I’m proud of to get so angry so quickly, but it seriously got on my nerves. My spiritual director is a priest at that parish and said to me one day that he thinks it would probably not be spiritually good for me to go to the NO .
@@paulward5071 at Christ the King in LV, NV. Once the priest broke out the liturgical dancers and only talked about putting on a good show, not only did my jaw drop, I left. How did we get here?
I think wherever you are, regardless if it's NO or TLM, we should continue to show reverence. It is the same body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ - the format doesn't change that fact.
I love Latin, and I love it when it is used in the Church, during Mass and by the faithful in general. Let’s face it, the Latin Mass is great. However, there is nothing more that I dislike than Latin when we use it purely out of vainglory. It is like the Pharisees who dressed in their elegant regalia simply so they could think highly of themselves and gain the esteem of their contemporaries. Truly, one is like a whitewashed tomb if he uses Latin for the same purposes. We must get caught up in living the teachings of the Church before indulging in the trappings of it.
perfect summation. spot on. TLM is wonderful, but the NO mass has everything in it that we need. If a person can't to salvation through the NO mass, it's not the fault of the mass.
@@carolynkimberly4021 I wasn’t saying that attending/praying TLM itself is vainglorious. I was referring to those folks who attend it out of a sense of vanity. There are certainly others who attend it without vanity, which is what I think ought to be done.
I attend a beautiful Novus Ordo. It's ad orientum, which I love the feeling of being led forward to God by my pastor. We have beautiful chant. The kyrie is in Greek, the Gloria is in Latin, as well as the agnus dei. We swing incense. The organ music is so well done and the hymns are traditional. The church too is very traditional and beautiful. To me, there is nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo if it's done with reverence for the sacredness of what is happening during the Mass.
The answer seems simple to me. Allow both to exist. Keep the ancient tradition for those who want to worship that way. I don’t understand poor Francis actively trying to suppress it. The diversity of the Catholic Church is what makes it beautiful.
I have my issues with Bishop Baron, but I will always give him credit for opening up effective dialogue with those outside the Faith. Oddly enough, when it came to talking about the TLM Baron wasn't as enthusiastic as Shia. Oh well. If Baron was saying mass in my town and a TLM was also happening at the same time, I'd think just for a moment if I'd want to hear Baron celebrate the mass, but I'd eventually choose the TLM.
I just started RCIA. I live about 2.5 miles from a Catholic church that still offers the Latin mass. This parish seems to embrace both liturgies pretty well. I moved here from a town where there was one tiny Catholic church that only did the Latin mass. It was beautiful, but it everyone did seem a bit stuck up to be honest.
Pray like you mean it. Don't just say the words-ho, hum, we've said these words over and over again. Pray with conviction. Regardless of which Mass you prefer, be in the moment with the words, live inside the world the Mass creates. If we all do this, we will be more truly one.
Really good points especially insightful at 4:00 and the next minute or so. Glad Shia has greatly benefited from the Latin Mass - hope he finds reverent NO - sounds like he at least encountered it . Already a lot of misinformation on social media about Shia and TLM. One is that he was introduced to it by Mel Gibson. That is not what he said . He had already been introduced to it . But when looking for a TLM in LA and couldn’t easily find one, Mel Gibson told him where he could find one
I watched the interview in its entirety and there was times I was drawn in and then others I was skeptical. He is promoting a film. I want to know more about why the Director of the Film Abel Ferrera chose Padre Pio. This man directed Bad Lieutenant, King of New York, etc... William Defoe I believe is in film, also star of Martin Scorsese, Last Temptation of Christ, just seems like certain stars get involved in stirring the Pot of Catholicism. When they start dropping in Stars like Neil Young, they start to become a lose cannon. And with editing and shutting off the camera, Word on Fire gets just enough out there to latch you on. The interview just brushes with Bishop Barrons help to mention Confession. Although, I applaud Bishop that he even brought it up. It did not seem to be on Shia's register. Padre Pio was huge on Confession and repentance. I have not seen the Film, how they address Confession in the Film, will be my decision on the Validity of the whole scene. St Padre Pio, Pray for us.
I am hopeful he made a conversion. I am fascinated by his story. And I am sure like all Catholic's Shia will struggle. I will pray for him. He is so vulnerable at this time. Hopefully he sticks with it. Jesus wants our whole hearts. You have to give up so much. Surrender so much. I hope we will see more from Shia.
I'm a "traddie" and Shia speaks honestly. I never once thought this is a farce. coming out as Catholic in Hollywood will destroy him potentially but he just doesn't care. that alone should put the cynical Catholics to rest.
We should not focus too much on complaining about the lack of perfection in the liturgy. But at the same time the actual text of the Roman Missal and the GIRM give us sure norms to use and follow. Why are these not being observed by almost every Catholic parish in America, or known and understood by most parishioners? That's the real concern about the Novus Ordo, that there is no objectivity in its observance even though the form itself is supposed to be quite fixed and reverent in itself. Instead it has become just another example of the typical postmodernist chaos in our culture, and it is apparent that the people who preside as ministers in the liturgy and run the parishes either prefer it that way, or simply don't care about addressing it. Likewise at the bishops' offices, who barely can be bothered with anything related to liturgy, as long as the sacrament itself is not being invalidated. I have no interest at all in leaving the Ordinary Form to join what I see as a bit of a cultish experience with an obsession with nostalgia at the TLM, that runs away from the problem instead of fights to resolve it. But why can't we all at local parishes and the diocesan liturgy offices agree to actually fix the actual problem? Why is it that difficult to get any traction whatsoever?
I don’t know what the basis of criticism of Bishop Barron could be. I’m a Protestant and I really like listening to the good Bishop. Regarding the guitars, drums, etc., it took me quite a while to appreciate it. There is some really good modern church music-as well as some not so good. In traditional hymns, there are some beautiful songs-as well as some not so good. My grandson for years attended a Lutheran church when he was young, but I found the hymns un-singable, LOL. Even the choir couldn’t sing it.
“There is enough here to be a saint”. Yes! Christ is present and True, and where He is there is grace to be a saint. My mom used to tell us that, in the days of late 1960s and 1970s, not to worry that much about some of the wacky stuff. Because we are here for Christ, and Christ is true. She could be outspoken about wacky stuff, but Mass is Mass, and you come for Christ, not the sermons, not the songs. She told us never to lose that.
@@Canisius19 I disagree. Even the reverent NO’s don’t hold a candle to the TLM. Just like the Low Mass isn’t as good as the High Mass, which isn’t as good as the Pontifical Mass. I recommend Fr. Ripperger’s article on why the TLM is objectively better. It talks about the graces and the prayers, and not about the history or controversies. It uses biblical reasoning, etc. Here is the link for the article. www.u.arizona.edu/~aversa/modernism/Merit%20of%20the%20Mass%20(Fr.%20Ripperger,%20F.S.S.P.).pdf
@@CrankyGrandma did you read the article? I recommend reading it so you can respond to my actual statement. The article directly addresses what you just said. Literally on the first page he addresses that and proves that that statement you made is not accurate when it comes to the merits of the mass.
I went to my first Latin mass today and I had trouble following along by I loved it. Unfortunately where I live the 1 church that has it does it once a month. So I’m gonna stick with my parish and once a month I’ll go Latin.
Why is the conversation always about "beautiful liturgy" and "prefference"... So tired of hearing that, it's unfair to place tradition at the level of simply: "Yeah, Latin mass is more reverent and beautiful"... I went to two different NO masses where the different priest spoke about how it doesn't matter what religion you practice. You guys seem to not get the point, you are invested in Christ to the level that you made your work about it so you can have all the richness of the Church at your hands, but regular people simply have their mass and the preaching of their priest, and many times (sadly more often than not) in NO parishes you have a priest, a liturgy, and sacraments that do not lead people to the faith, do not give them a strong ground for them to become saints, I am really tired of listening to NO defenders that we cherish traditional sacraments and traditional lifestyle due to its beauty and reverence and that's it. Really tired and I really believe that it is unfair to hold such position.
Matt, you are right. I don't know any traditional Latin mass anywhere within my area (or even as far as 100 miles). I think it's even non existent in my state. So the best that i can do is just attend whatever non- traditional Catholic mass there is and make the most out of it.
Hey Matt, what are your thoughts about dividing the Latin and Norvus Ordo into two separate Catholic Rites? The Latin Rite which does the Latin Mass and the Roman Rite which does the Norvus Ordo? Just a thought
The WoF show just premiered a recap of the Shia interview and they avoided the elephant in the room. They did not discuss liturgy or speak on Shia’s affection for the TLM and his criticism of the new mass. I’m not a radtrad or into liturgical politics and I love Bishop Barron but why the dishonesty and disregard? It does seem shady - for all the talk of the evangelistic power of beauty and being against “beige Catholicism”… its like they are afraid or can’t admit they might be wrong. It’s like the mainstream church has to ignore the TLM movement and stereotype it as “fringe” instead of humbly embracing it and liberating it from the shadows. Imagine if WoF became leaders of the TLM movement and normalized it. But no they don’t want to pay it attention or give it legitimacy.
in Europe we have already seen the movie Padre Pio. that movie is a serious fraud. it's not a christian movie. and it is not a film about Padre Pio. ti is a nonsensical, deceptive, perverse movie. I strongly suspect that Shia’s "conversion" is part of the evil marketing of that film. Nice performance Shia the false brother!
What's interesting about this is when I speak to Catholic friends in europe, they seem to really like Baptist churches (Black American ones, specifically) because of the singing and music.
While I love the idea of the Latin Mass, we only have access to an SSPX mass which our diocese does not allow us to attend due to them not yet being in full communion with the pope. I still love the Novus Ordo regardless of the priest or the music or the sermon because Jesus is there truly present in the tabernacle, which in our church is centered directly behind the altar. And while most people receive the Eucharist in the hand, many of us receive on the tongue and a few of us get down on our knees. We had a beloved priest tell us a number of years back, that regardless of whether you receive in the hand or on the tongue, always receive Jesus in the most humble and reverant way possible as if we are beggars for the spiritual nourishment that Jesus gives us. We have a variety of music from different leaders (guitars and drums included) that is beautiful because of the praise being given to God. We have large families and lots of young people and rosary groups and bible studies and adoration. I get tired of strictly traditional Catholics thinking they are holier because of the type of mass they listen to. Good priests lead us all closer to Jesus regardless of the liturgical rite they celebrate with us.
There is no such thing as “not full communion”. They are in full communion, they just don’t have canonical regularity. I’m not saying go to them, but they are in the Church.
As somebody who was way too young to hear any of this I am confused. Why did they start doing away with the Latin Mass in the first place? Or at the very least what was their reasoning? Because I just walked into something that is very intense in the church and I have no context.
Hi Gary, I would direct you to watch the Mass of the Ages documentaries - they explain what happened/where things are going. They’re incredibly well done and do a good job of detailing everything. They’ve made parts 1 and 2 and are going to release part 3 sometime in the near future. I’ll link parts one and two below.
I have kind of a peculiar take on this. I’ve been Catholic my whole life and have attended Mass (with the exception of about a three month period) every Sunday. I did not go to the Latin Mass until last year, and I really did not find anything to latch onto. I certainly understand how it appeals to some, but it did not speak to me at all in the way others say it does to them. It felt stiff and unwelcoming. I am the weird guy under 40 (23 to be exact) who likes the praise and worship style of music, when it is done respectfully. It makes me feel as though I’m in a much more “religious” state of mind, I suppose. Which is a very abnormal take, I grant, but we do exist.
@@carolynkimberly4021 It was hard to pray with everyone when everyone else seemed to be involved with other things. I had a Missal. Praise and Worship music is only Protestant if it contains errors. If it is written by Catholics and is doctrinally sound, there is no issue. It is rather offensive to imply that because I like a certain kind of music that I am becoming a Protestant.
@@carolynkimberly4021 Saying the Rosary, lining up for Confession, reading meditations unrelated to Mass. The Novus Ordo was created by the Catholic Church, it is a Catholic liturgy. Here is an example another issue I have with the Latin Mass. Those who frequent it tend to be dismissive of the edicts of the Church that they do not agree with. The hatred towards Novus Ordo, which is the Holy Mass, is frightening. The unwillingness to follow what is set forth by the Magisterium for the development of doctrine is really what feels Protestant. Certainly there are Novus Ordo liturgies that abuse the Mass, but are you suggesting that before Vatican II, there were no liturgical abuses? It is only more common in Novus Ordo because Novus Ordo is more common.
@@edwardg8912 Well said! Those who attend TLM are always criticizing those going to NO mass. It reminds me of the attitude of the pharisees, and what was Christ's reaction???
Just saw this, after about 9 months. You are just manufacturing a straw man. TLM does not guarantee people will not leave the Church (see the Protestant Reformation). All of what you are saying is peddled at the NO just is not. You may be hearing that it is from the one priest whose masses you have attended for the last 10 years, but he’s not correct. I’ll say a prayer for you, my pharisaical friend.
I think it’s interesting that the way things are done in America always feels non genuine where you see other countries doing roughly the same thing but feels completely different. I was confirmed through an American church and I always felt left out but when I go to Latin mass, everything and everyone feels connected idk man
I think ‘newcomers / outsiders’ reactions to Catholic liturgy are very revealing. Every one of my non-Catholic friends who has attended a novus ordo mass for funerals, weddings etc. - have all said the same thing: “it was mega cringey…couldn’t take it seriously”. Quite the opposite reaction when they attended a Latin mass.
He says alot of good stuff Different mass affect different people in the stages of their relationships with GOD But Shia fails to realize why we are there in the first place Worshiping & Receiving god in the eucharist is so Grand doesn’t matter how things go before I see guitar playing as worshiping god by signing .. can’t go wrong with that Latin mass are beautiful but when you see the bigger picture You see it alll as beautiful ready to touch people in their way needed
I dont know why protestant and church are fighting i find positive on both sides i love the traditional Mass but i Also love a good preach i feel its Also more connected to regular life
I agree with you Matt, I have listened to plenty of critics of the novus ordo who themselves lead a pretty lackluster lifestyle. If the mass is meant to draw us into greater communion with Christ then they are not showing the Latin Mass is better by how they live.
While true, I have met more good Catholics at a TLM than at the NO. By good I mean they follow the moral laws, they believe in the teachings of the Church (all of them), they aren’t washy, etc. it might be regional, but most Catholics I’ve met at the NO parishes I’ve been to reject catholic teachings such as “there will be people in hell”, and believe things like “it’s ok to make out with your girlfriend” “you can spend the night at your girlfriends house” “the Eucharist is the actually just the symbolic body of Christ and not His real body” “you can wear whatever you want, including slutty clothing, to Church” “the death penalty is immoral” “Protestantism is just another branch of our church and Protestants don’t need to become Catholic” “I can go to a Protestant service” “there is no such thing as a bad catholic or evil people” “baptism isn’t necessary” and “it’s ok to receive the Eucharist after having committed a mortal sin before going to confession, and I tell the children in my class that.” (That last one actually was told to a group of us going to become confirmation counselors, and when I said that was against Church teaching and a sacrilege I was fired from the program not just by her but by the priest, whom I love. I wrote a hand written five page letter to that priest about why I spoke out against it, and gave the relevant citations from several different catechisms and documents). I’ve also heard them say things like, “Jesus was not a Catholic. Neither were the Apostles.” Nothing on that list has ever been said by anyone at my TLM community. Do we sin? Yes. But we also acknowledge that and don’t pretend we aren’t sinning. I have also never heard anyone at mass make jokes before, during, or after mass. Heck, I’ve never heard them talking before, during, or after mass (while still in the main room). Everyone at the TLM shows up, kneels for prayer before, attentively participates during, and after mass they kneel and pray again for five to ten minutes. Then they quietly leave, cross themselves before they exit the door, and *then* start talking when outside. That is something I haven’t experienced at *any* NO I’ve been to.
Born and raised Roman Catholic. Was an "Alter Boy" in my youth Drifted away in my late 20s and only recently returned as a regular worshiper in my 50s because of the TLM. My lapse...call me whenever names you want....was basically because as a Man almost every NO mass I went to felt like I was visiting a ladies knitting circle. Masses that seemed like they were led more by the lady cantors/readers than the Priest. Churches with the organist on a platform in the font of the Church sharing attention space with the Alter. Hippie-like fiok music. Full bands with drums and tambourines. Hand holding and Kumbaya-like atmosphere. Way too mega-church/protestant IMO. Awful Hymns. The "Prayer of the Faithful" used as a "let's pray for this secular political/woke/worldly issue -of-the-day. Heck I even went to an Easter mass where the power point projection screens (seriously) were used to remind us not to be Anti-Semities before the reading of the Passion (seriously). Decor that seemed way more fitting in my wife's dressing room than in a Church Men are expected to worship in too And on and on and on. Say all the "the NO Mass can/could/may/is possible to be respectful/worshipful if done right " platitudes you want. In my opinion, if you have to look that hard for that sort Mass then there's something wrong within the Church. Shouldn't most NO masses should be respectful and less secular?
Shia’s conversion is tricky. We need to have hope. We need to be mindful of his human-ness too. We discussed how to interpret celebrity conversion on The Simpleton Podcast: ruclips.net/video/96zVWbFjWdw/видео.html
Even if TLM is more reverent, the NO is a valid Mass if done by a valid priest and should be held in great respect; we are still receiving Christ in the Eucharist, and it pains me to hear people degrade it. How can any form of the Mass that validly brings us Christ in the Eucharist be anything less than miraculous and beautiful?
From Guatemala, Central America. I´ve heard the many criticisms of Novus Ordo Mass over there in the USA, but i don´t understand it, (maybe because you come from a rich well educated country). I've never experienced Latin Mass, my parents did when they where kids, I´m 47. But I have never had those questions about how bad the Novus Ordo Mass is. The music, guitars? Many times we don´t have the money to buy the instrument (an old guitar will do), I´ve been once in a Mass where the Marimba was used, and it was a beautiful mass, it was in a mayan comunity where the Mass is said in the mayan language of the comunity. Hey, many times the musicians are bad! Where I go to mass many times there is only a woman singing, and she is bad, she can´t sing in tune but she never miss Mass. Its a small,, for you I guess, ugly church and poor in a poor comunity. But there is Christ in the Proclamation of the Gospel, in the Eucharist and all the time I go out at the end feeling at peace with grace. My devout, devout grandmother (born in 1932) who never missed a rosary said to me that with the Novus Ordo she began to understand and participate better in the Mass. Having said that I regret that the Latin Mass is not easily accesible in my country and I feel disapointed at the clergy for that. I´ve asked many priests why is that and one once told me with a smirk :I don´t even know latin.
In American parishes it is common that the music is ill-fitting not out of lack of good options, but with the apparent prime motivator of being entertainment first and perhaps reverent second. It's not the instrument, it's how you use it! I did not think the folk group at the parish where I grew up was great, but aside from being on the altar (this was in the basement chapel) they were more appropriate for the Mass than any contemporary group I remember since. One is supposed to try to perform one's best, but it's not a performance. I have only been to a Novus Ordo Mass myself, and I find that there is a lot of variance in how reverent it is. I think there are too many contemporary groups and that there are a lot of paths within contemporary music for becoming a distraction. Lyrics projected on screens and lyrics without music for the congregation to at least stare at confusedly are not good ideas.
Well, I'd like to politely disagree with the notion that novus ordo can appeal to everyone. It CAN communicate what all people need to hear but Labeouff has a significant point. When we take into account the dimensions of human personality (speaking psychologically) there is no way we can ever say "one size fits all". It is why I don't agree with our pope on the elimination of TLM. Testimony of TLM's powerful effect, even IF on a minority of Catholics, is STILL significant.... the first thing my mind conjures is the parable of the lost sheep! Can we reject testimony of lost sheep like Labeouff just because someone thinks he ought to find more in novus ordo? Its not as if he went to some "new age-y" thing... he went to the past. I truly and honestly cannot see ANY advantage to disregarding or discarding TLM. Pope Francis may think its in the name of inclusion and participation... but some think its about a loss of tradition and dilution. We ignore BOTH sides at our own peril.
Let us imagine Saint Peter and Paul in Rome celebrating or at the breaking of the bread, with the Christians during their time. I would think, Jesus is there truly present with them. I could say the Passion of Lord and his Resurection, Heaven on earth. Wonder and Awe. just by imagining it.
Mate reach out to Bug Hall. Alfalfa from little rascals. He was abused as a child, most of his friends took their own lives. He got caught addicted to dust buster. And he has converted and has a beautiful wife and children. They live on a farm and every moment of every day is spent teaching his toddler daughter how to please God. He's the only child actor to beat Hollywood with God's help
Matt you have me back. I have seen way too much judgement passed on Novus ordo, Barron, The Pope etc... all lacking in obedience to the one commandment, agape. Whenever I hear a channel blowing up on those things I immediately turn them off then unsubscribe. Agape et Shalom
Is there a way to elevate the novus ordo? Make it more authentically activating and authentically reverent? Can we put some latin in as a beautiful call back to tradition? I really love kierie eleison chant. My dad wrote a modern worship song from those words in the chorus years back when our family knew no Catholics at all... These things don't have to be rejected as old and unrelatable. In actual fact, deep meaningful origin gives more authenticity to things than popular recent interest from the masses... Also I don't even know why we are trying to convert people via the mass. Maybe the richness of a mass can convert a biblical Christian. But for most people, the are converted by a connection to a real authentic Christ living people.
Two things: 1) No, because the NO was written to disregard the Catholic tradition (seriously, look into the forming of it). 2) Fun fact for your second part, the Mass is divided into two sections, the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful. Waaaaay back (prior to the 1000’s), the non Catholics were dismissed right before the creed because the Creed to the end were special privileges for just the Baptized Catholics.
Just as small point...the Kyrie Eleison is Greek ...but I hear what you are saying...I do love the music , but the Eucharist celebrated in a farmer's thatched house also appeals.
latin is not a sacred language, there is not such thing, the latin mass is the same sacrifice, the same divine litugie that the mass in the vernacular languages. it is contraproductive to the essence of the church the lack of evolution in the means, the content and message is inmutable, the forms and means have and will continue to evolve, for the gospel will always have somenthing to say to the human culture trough the ages
Is there enough there at the Novus Ordo to make you a saint? Maybe if you are already catechized, and your conscience is well-informed. But children who see adults showing absolutely no reverence for the Eucharist - that does terrible things to their chances of becoming saints. That's the problem. It's almost as if the adults got together at Vatican II, and said, "you know, we're kind of bored, so let's make the liturgy more interesting." What they removed from the liturgy was the reverence, and to say these children raised in the Novus Ordo can become saints is incredibly optimistic.
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BB is probably leading many younger people into the church. He’s doing that for me. And I’m a lifelong atheist.
Baron’s Catholicism video had a profound affect on my daughter when she was in her later teens, and she is a faithful Catholic adult. Bishop Barron does get a lot of unjust flack, but it seems that often happens when you are doing something good. So in a way, the flack is a good sign for him.
I am a 'Traditional" Catholic, and I was deeply touched by Bishop Barron's Joyful Mysteries rosary. I can absolutely see where he brings atheists into the faith. That is a beautiful, real. thing to celebrate, and I mean that with all sincerity, I am SO happy to hear that ... . I think even BB's most ardent critics can't deny the wonderful ability he has to bring the true messages of love of God to the people. ... And so, I can see why it must turn you off to hear. anything critical. I will try to explain so, Please try to understand the distinction - what the "critics" are saying. and how that could possibly reconcile with the beauty of what he said that has drawn you to the Faith. learning the faith - both the nuts and bolts and feeling the profound effects of graces, is a journey. There is the Traditional, the "orthodox' faith (lower case o,). it is derived from the Deposit of Faith that goes all the way back to Christ and the Apostles. Nothing can be added, subtracted, or changed in any way. Since around 1960, "Modernism" has invaded the Church. it goes directly against the unchangeable Tradition (upper case T, that is derived from Deposit of the Faith, which is different than regular definition of tradition.) As much as I like Bishop Barron , he has been unclear when asked for specific clarity, on certain subjects, most notably the practice of homosexuality. I watched that one video with utter disbelief, but you can watch it and judge for yourselves.
The MAIN goal of every priest should be the saving of souls. And Jesus made it clear that we must embrace ALL that he commanded (in both sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, which is reflected clearly in the traditional , unchangeable catechism of the Faith).
Critics of Bishop Barron are extremely concerned about his messages leading people in the wrong direction. When asked pointedly, anything less than clear teaching, according to the dogma of the faith, is a grievous matter bc it can lead people into mortal sin, which is contrary to the salvation of their souls. it is that simple.
Jesus said that those who follow His commands will be persecuted, and some avoid the needed clarity that goes against current times. But all priests have a duty to be extremely clear about such teaching. Now, that is not all there is to the faith, there is much much more to it, in order for people to embrace the true faith of God's, which is all about love of God and fellow "man".
We are NOT to teach partial truth, bc that is deception that leads in the wrong direction. This is why many are truly praying for Bishop Barron to teach according to the dogma with clarity. I feel not worthy in a way, to say this, given all of Bishop Barron's knowledge, his position as a bishop, etc, so I say this w humility that might not be apparent. But I hope this gives you some ideas. Blessings!
@@finallythere100 that’s a very well thought out explanation and I tend to agree that his and other church leaders’ lack of clarity can be a cause of scandal which helps no one.
@@PatrickSwackhammer - TY. I do NOT speak for Bishop Barron , per se, but the real war going on in the Post V2 Conciliatory Church w the apparent false / Counterfeit Church coming out of the Vatican, it's complicated and seems to make sense only in that context, with all of the political stuff, infiltrators and other factors. We did NOT have this problem prior to Vatican 2, so it all has to do w the errors of Modernism.
Bishop Barron has the approach that he is going to wrap you in God's love and explain things in a way that expresses God's deep longing to bring you home to Him (God). So many people desperately need to encounter God this way, particularly people outside of faith who have a deeply critical eye towards God. Where Bishop Barron gets flack is from people who want him to take a harder line on things, and they aren't wrong to expect that of a Bishop, but they are wrong to expect that all the time regardless of the audience. That line of thinking is wrong. Christ himself tied a cord into knots and drove the money changers from the temple. He called the Pharisees a den of vipers for using scripture to control people. He stood on the mountain and told everyone that no matter what you do, you can't live up to God's expectations, but then he also stopped the stoning of a woman caught in the act of adultery - and told her to go and sin no more. A person who cannot understand a situational approach for the larger good has missed the point.
Matt, people who are not near a TLM may not have "control" per se, but there are literally dozens, hundreds, of stories in which a community got together, asked the local bishop for a TLM, and the request being granted. The laity have a role.
I am a convert solely because of the Traditional Latin Mass and Faith. As a father the Novus Ordo Church repels me, it is purged of the Supernatural, Mystical, and Ascetical, all the core elements that formed me as a Catholic. As a man I need to be challenged by confronting my own will and to embrace suffering - only the TLM provides this formation.
Really? I find all those things in the NO I attend . Beware of disordered passions-even spiritual ones . Read the great traditional masters of the spiritual life.
Are you sure it's the NO itself or is it the way it's celebrated? Chances are it's how it's celebrated and a career liturgist or confused clergy is the reason things are the way they are....
@@rosepistilli223 It’s all the Catholic doctrine that was removed in the prayers, rituals, gestures, symbols, chants, etc. This doctrine formed Catholics for 2K years. The committee that created the N.O. in 1969 removed this doctrine and put protestant-modernist doctrine in its place, assembly-meal-universalist theology instead of Catholic. For example - only 13% of the orations going back to the 4th century(Pope Damasus) were retained. How arrogant; countless generations preserved these prayers intact only for a committee to delete them. As a sinner I need the hard truths of these prayers to save me.
@@nadreb13 I truly believe the Novus Ordo (reverently celebrated) has a place in the Church. It's the sometimes suppression of TLM that fills me with dismay.
all catholics should have access to the latin mass. it is the responsibility of the local bishop.
Yes. I hear if 3 people write the bishop he has to tell Rome
Hallo, thank you for posting this. When i lived in indonesia, i used to went to daily mass everyday at 5.45 till 6.30. It was always full. There wasnt any instrument, nor homily. Just the eucharis, reading, prayer, and singing. Those were the most beautiful time in the day. There is something special about catholic mass. It can be done in the most glorious way, but also very simple. Any language is fine, because the holy spirit has its own language, which is love.
Thank you Matt for the last minutes of this clip.
The island I live on has no TLM parish. The Novus Ordo bashing on the social media has been hurting me for a while now (American, there is no passionate debate I know of in French), so your remark relieved me.
I don't think we should base our spirituality on what's "good enough." We should give God the best we can offer
"There's enough here to become a saint." God bless you Matt! I felt conflicted when I was told that I should go to a TLM, even if I have to drive an hour. I decided against it, because I want to be rooted in the town where I live. I'm grateful for our masses and our priests, they give my family the opportunity to worship.
I see what you mean. I like to go with family to Mass. I do like the Latin Mass sometimes however my entire family just goes to the ordinary Mass, I feel as though people ought to go as a family to Mass if possible.
In addition, referencing Matt's statement on "dieting", you are feeding your soul the good food of the Eucharist in communion with your family and friends. Maybe you can use the 80/20 rule and indulge your heart at TLM occasionally.
That was an excellent message that Matt gave. (I didn't know about the TLM and the traditional Community outside of my parish when my kids were growing up. I'd give anything to go back in time and change that. and make the hour drive. I, too, wanted them centered at the local level, but I see now that was not the way.) ... I understand your position, and I urge you to keep a close eye on the heresies of Francis creeping into YOUR parish's Novus Ordo Mass. It often starts in the Mass Intentions, and then in sermons. There is a lot going on daily w "Pope Francis", that is highlighted also by Dr. Taylor Marshall and on Return to Tradition channels (Dr. Anthony Stine). MAJOR unprecedented heresies, changes are expected in the next year. The Novis order Mass varies, but some Churches, such as in Chicago have 2 married "dad" giving the Father's Day sermon, championing homosexual unions as sacred. Look at the German bishops, and keep track of the 2023 Synod. I wish you and your family all the best! Blessings.
I feel what you said at 4:25 on such a deep level Matt. I go to FSU and am really involved in the Catholic Student Union, and me and a couple of other people have been working at introducing more traditional things in the student Mass so we can help the liturgy become more reverent. But sometimes I think to myself, even with the praise and worship and guitar (which I would rather not have in the liturgy), if I humbled myself down and really prayed with it, the spiritual nourishment from the mass in that way can still make me a saint if I let it. It’s like the beauty of the faith, maybe not in accidence, but at least in substance is still present, which is enough to transform hearts
I think this is really really important to realize. We can't get too caught up in the particulars of worship; otherwise, worship becomes about the particulars and not the Object.
Yep, it's about the Consecration. As long as it's present and valid, the language and the music are secondary considerations. The Church is universal, and there's room for different particular elements so long as they don't get in the way of the reason for the Mass, i.e., the real, physical presence of Christ. That's enough to get me caught up in the Consecration every time.
Keep it outside the Mass. It tends to deflate the holiness with worldly and feel-good efforts. Hey: organize a video-watching night! Play the whole Shia interview for them.
As a child of the 60's and 70's I went through the changes to the mass and couldn't stand it, especially the guitar music, even though I didn't understand the Latin mass and didn't really understand why I didn't like the change.
So after years of my participating and non participating in the Novus Ordo mass and contemplating (for a moment) leaving the Catholic faith, I asked God to help me to love the "new" mass.
I started to pay close attention to the prayers even meditating on them after mass. I also listen and watched Bishop Barron's The Mass (I believe that's what it's called) and Fr. Mike Schmidt's talk on the mass which helped me to understand everything that goes on in the mass. I can tell you now that sometimes when I say the prayers (Holy, holy, holy...)I begin to cry and when the priest lifts up the host my heart is overflowing with love for my Lord and it is all I can do from keeping me sobbing at that time. I wonder often what the priest is thinking when I go up to communion with tears streaming down my face. I love and respect both the N.O. and T.L.M.
This is what it’s all about. We just get in the way!
The ancient Romans and Jews were probably not huge fans of Christian liturgy, let alone eating the body and blood of God, but after experiencing the immense love of God: “to whom shall we go?!”
My initial experiences of the TLM, coming from a "Boomus Ordo" upbringing, and then being a revert, were not great. As a revert I wanted to participate in the Mass, which required great effort from me just to do in English. Then at a Latin Mass, it felt like the Mass was happening and I just happened to be in the room. How was I supposed to participate? Was I presumptuous for daring I should be participating? (No, it is grave obligation to participate at the Mass.)
But Shia presents an excellent Paradigm Shift. The Latin Mass is happening, and I'm invited to witness a spectacular secret. I knew from listening to others that the Latin Mass would grow on me, so I've been going back, and reading the Benedictus. One day, I will be able to read in English faster than my priest can recite from memory in Latin!
I prepared and educated myself with the red missal for $4.00 online. It has all the prayers in English and Latin. Over 2-3 masses I follow along quite easily. You PRAY as you go.
One thing that might help to remember while at TLM (at least in the beginning) is that our participation in the Mass should first & foremost always be the participation of the heart, mind, and soul being lifted to praise & worship our Lord, being at the foot of His Cross during the sacrifice, and giving thanks for all He's done. This can be done at a Latin Mass without knowing a word of what's being said, by orienting all our attention to what is happening at the altar while listening to the inner voice of God, the Holy Spirit and just resting in that prayerful existence. (Example: what is our heart experiencing, is it fear & constantly being turned back to self because we want to understand & perform all the right actions? Or is it being lifted up to something higher, outside of ourselves, to our God & our Creator?)
I had only known NO masses and it enhanced my idea that I had to earn God's love by DOING vs the short time I've attended TLM and finding it's about BEING His, BEING invited into relationship with Him, and BEING restful in Him & letting Him lead me! (But that's just my experience, and this may not be meaningful to you at all, haha ☺️) Many prayers & blessings on your journey, Patrick!
I love this explanation. It’s like you were with me and in my head on my first couple visits to TLM.
I recommend getting “Introduction to the Devout Life” and reading what St. Francis de Sales says about participating in it.
Wow!! Very based. I thought of a good way to put it. Most NO’s I have to intentionally “suspend my disbelief” or use my imagination and ignore many things to really try to get my interior prepared enough to receive the Lord and understand even a piece of the reality of what is happening.
At the TLM, I often feel like the reality is imposed on me. And with the same amount of effort as I would have to exert at another form of the Mass, I am able to dive extremely deep into the mysteries. But even on a day where I’m down or distracted, I can still understand that our Lord is present because of the top down imposition of Truth that was carefully crafted since the dawn of our Church.
As a Protestant I love papa Pio and I’m happy for what God is doing in Shia’s life
I try to get to a TLM at least once a month but am a daily communicant at a reverent NO mass. From the peace blessing, one priest goes directly onto the Agnus Dei, while a lot of parishioners are jumping out of their pews still offering the sign of peace. They can’t seem to break out of that habit.
What I like is something I’m just going through so much that a low Mass is perfect so I can be left in peace for deep spiritual contemplation and not feel obligated or embarrassed if I am simply not in the place to participate.
Just a word of encouragement... If you are being prayerful & contemplating the things of God during Mass then you ARE participating ✝️ That's what God has been healing me of lately is the constant requirement of outward performance to an upward inner life with Him (doing vs being) and the being is what He is calling us all to!! From one who suffers much, to another, my prayers are with you!
Thank you for talking about this I saw the video of him converting to a Catholic my friend sent me the video and I watched it and I thought it was very good and I’m happy that you came Catholic and also thank you for your podcast I appreciate it
Another thing I wanted to tell you is can you make your videos a little bit longer when you’re talking about something like this to me it seem that was a little short but thank you for the video
I love the TLM. For those who like the Novus Ordo You can find the reverence and an animated parishioners in the Spanish mass that sings.
Spanish Mass is awesome! Funny story - we were visiting family one Christmas and went to a local church for mass. We just picked a mass time and went. Once we sat down we noticed that everyone else was wearing cowboy hats. It didn't occur to me that most were hispanic because we live in Florida and that's normal. Then the music started and we realized we had gone to Spanish Mass HAHAHAH! We loved it! That happened to us at three different churches, three years in a row! Now we go to Spanish Mass for Christmas every year on purpose because it is so great! English Mass on Christmas is so sad! It feels like a funeral! Why? We are celebrating the birth of Christ!
We do go to English mass every week, but for Christmas it's Spanish for us!
Spanish speaking mass as in Mexican Spanish?
@@TickleMeElmo55 No as in mass schedule that is listed in spanish in the church bulletin.
Thanks be to God for his return to the lord.
Just sharing my experience as a 36yr old guy experiencing Latin Mass for the very first time.. It was so foreign to me yet so attractive and amazing. Even though I didn't understood much, also (temptation to confess) I fell asleep because it was lengthy, all in all I want to dig it, scrape the surface and see what is the beauty and essence of it all.. I want to experience it once again.. That's basically it..
Oh are there any online Latin Mass? Or are there any Cathecism or study on that very beautiful tradition?
“Treasure and tradition” is a good Book on the Latin Mass
There a many on line . I like St John Cantius. You can see a low TLM and a high TLM(excerpt on First Sundays of the month). But you can also see the Novus Ordo with all traditional options either entirely in Latin except for homily / readings or primarily in English but with Gregorian Latin chants for all of the propers and much of the ordinaries .
What does one benefit from attending a service they can't understand?
I had a similar experience: Went to my first latin mass a month ago (I’m 29), 2 hours away from my town. I was really tired and just let go of trying to follow everything and tried to appreciate the beauty of the mass and pray with that. It was similar to how I pray when singing sacred music in my choral goup… a kind of just letting go, which is a big deal for me. To me, it feels like i’m praying by listening, whereas in NO i pray by more with speech/active prayer. And for a person who feels the need to have things under control the latin mass was… freeing. I’ll try to go as much as I can, whenever I’m close to a church that celebrates TLM! Still have no problem with my local NO, though!
Watch the Mass of Ages documentaries part 1 and 2.
we love the latin mass and go when we can but you are so right! In the novus ordo Our Lord absolutely is present and speaks to us even if its not done reverently. My husband and I are converts from protestantism & even in the novus ordo we felt the power of the liturgy & the sacredness of it! The latin mass just knocked it out of the park & hooked us even deeper into our new found Catholic faith
I love beauty and reverence, and I seek it - but I don't go to "Latin Mass" or "Novus Ordo."
...I go to MASS.
Not trying to be prideful or judgmental, but Matt is right. There is enough for you to be a saint, if you commit. If Latin Mass moves you, seek it out. Maybe you're more at home in a (hopefully) reverent Novus Ordo. Go for it. They are both your inheritance.
Perfect
They aren’t the same so the distinction is important. The same with the Divine Liturgy. No one would say the Divine Liturgy is bad, and it is still a mass, but it is asinine to say, “I don’t go to a TLM or a DL, I go to a MASS” because while they are all masses, they are all different because the rituals are different.
@@Arkangilos No.
@@tomgreene1843 no what?
Best answer ever. We should not say that Latin Mass "is better" than Novus Ordo. Both, if well done (yes, there are also liturgical abuses in TLM), are beautiful. What matters most is that God is present in both!
As an Orthodox convert from Catholicism, the interview was nice. I’m glad this effort is at least turning people to Christ, regardless of the theological differences. We can cover that separately.
As an Orthodox Christian it saddens me to see people yearning for a traditional Liturgy, which we never lost, and have their church actively work against them. Shia talking about the Latin Mass is exactly how I feel about the Orthodox Liturgy.
@@jessetocker3412 right? I totally agree. It’s truly heartbreaking actually.
Many people are criticizing the "how come" of Bishop Barron, because he "doesn't understand". That "how come" is what gives us more of Shia's thoughts on this.
I played various instruments while ministering at local churches for probably 10 years or so, with the lockdowns and things putting a stop to it; I did the Hillsong United type of stuff. While I do miss the camaraderie, I can definitely see where Shia is coming from. Like Qoheleth said, to everything there is a season.
I saw the entire interview. There's no doubt Shia is a "new creation". I totally agree about what he said about not pushing stuff on you.
Yeah people definitely are over-critical of Bishop Barren at this point.
Is there any other American bishop even attempting to teach the faith by this point?
Great point, I found myself going down that road towards being critical, it’s always important for us to pull back.
@@zacharynelson5731 yes look at Bishop Thomas Paprocki of Springfield, Illinois.
This sort of casual and dreary hand waving defence of modernists in the Church is more obscene to me then the modernists themselves because of how servile and self serving your apathy is. It’s one thing to not care and choose to be of no help or use on this issue, but it’s another to delude yourself into thinking your selfish neglect is the RIGHT thing. Either explain yourself or be honest with yourself that you just don’t care and want to stop caring
@@hairypawter8475 tell me about it. If any "Christian" calls Jesus Christ the "preferred way" to heaven without coming back and saying my bad I was wrong, well your criticism should be eternal my friends.
I don’t appreciate that the norvous Ordo is just assumed that it has to have a “praise & worship band” I have attended a mass where they are rocking out to what I am accustomed too as a more reverent moment during the mass. Which felt off. I am also ver new and don’t know what I am talking about.
My parish does a Norvous Ordo with just a simple piano with the chants in English & what not. It is supremely reverent.
They also offer a Latin mass as well once a week.
I recently started attending the TLM and it is night and day from the Norvus Ordo, however your analogy of a person who knows the best diet yet fails to eat correctly is spot on. Saints are made from Grace and our doing of Gods will, not the liturgy. Great insight Matt
That , I think, would be a superficial idea.
I learned about SHIA a few months ago. His name was mentioned by a Priest who was celebrating Holy Mass, on the day of The Solemnity of Christ. In his Homily he spoke about We were created, we are captured( our fallen humanity) We've been rescued, and most importantly, what is Our Response? He goes on to say, "I know you think these words are from long ago and you think they don't apply to us in this modern world." He then speaks of SHIA, a famous actor whose life has been transformed NOW in our times!! So here I am now learning about SHIA, and the Padre PIO Movie, that I've yet to see. Hearing about his conversion , his experience is moving me closer to Christ!!!❤❤
In my area, there are very few Latin Masses available! We have a wonderful pastor who draws us in to the Novus Ordo and the Eucharist!
Dr. Scott Hahn came into the Church through the mass which was the Novus Ordo... I think too much discussion about the differences between the two forms of the Latin Rite feeds into the controversy and when the Holy Father weighs in on it with his letters and directives, it then snowballs into attacks on the Holy Father as if to say the Laity know more than the entire clergy across the whole world put together. Some of the arguments for the Tridentine Mass are like as if there wasn't any liturgy prior to St. Pius V. Yes the Tridentine Mass is more other worldly than the Novus Ordo, but my mother who attended the Tridentine Masses as a kid feels very strongly that the Novus Ordo is more relatable than the Tridentine Masses she attended as a child. And I guess there are many "oldies" who feel the opposite. In both sides of the "liturgical" divide, I guess we are letting the pelegianistic mindset creep in where in everything is about how we do things rather than allowing God to do things. I mean St John Paul II said Mass both in the extraordinary form and the novus ordo and Mother Theresa attended both forms of the Rite, why are we who admire both these modern day saints arguing over which form of the rite is better. And if the new form has come in, there's a reason and it has come in with the consent of all the bishops and the signatory of the Holy Father St. Paul VI. And if Pope Francis is making stricter norms around the celebration of the extraordinary form, then what's the matter. And if folks feel it is their right... then we need to remember what Fr. Mike Schmitz has said concerning Rights and Gifts... Gifts are not earned and can never be a right. The Holy Eucharist, the Liturgies (past forms and present), the Sacrament including the Church are Gifts from God and we are all the least deserving of them. Let's be grateful for them and stop squabbling about which is better, and having rights over any and all of these gifts.
Matt, take a look at the prayers from the Novus Ordo vs Latin Mass side by side and look at how they stripped the worship out of the Holy Mass! Also, look at the demographics of Mass attendance and you will find younger people being drawn to the Latin Mass and leaving Novus Ordo parishes.
While I agree with much of what you said, it's important to note that there are FAR more NO parishes than EF parishes. Also, the average commute to the local EF in my diocese is over an hour for the parishioners. Additionally, there were significant changes made from the Old Latin into the Vulgate. Loads of liturgical changes have been made in Tridentine rite that resulted in the modern EF, but none were ever as drastic as adding the NO. Keep in mind, however, that the pastoral aims of the NO were different from the pastoral aims of the EF.
The answer seems simple to me. Allow both to exist. Keep the ancient tradition for those who want to worship that way. I don’t understand poor Francis actively trying to suppress it. The diversity of the Catholic Church is what makes it beautiful.
I like your comment about the Novus Ordo Mass. There is enough in there to make us Saints. May God help us to whom much is given much is expected
I love Traditional French Mass
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I feel part of the problem is priests, bishops, and lay people have allowed the Mass to lose its sacredness. When I go wary to pray, it is like a total social scene. We need reverence and time for preparation in my opinion to meet our Savior in the Eucharist
Yeah, when I would go to the NO parish close to me they would see me praying and still come over and interrupt me. I’d be praying and it would be obvious and they’d come over, nudge my should and want me to shake their hand.
And one time I almost flipped pews because this one guy kept making jokes with people. I told him people were trying to prepare for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and he was like, “I’m sorry you feel that way, but it’s also a celebration at the Lord’s Table and so a social thing”. I started shaking really bad (I go from 0 to 100 with anger at specific things) and said, “YOU CAN SOCIALIZE OUTSIDE! PRAY IN HERE!”
I’m sure he stopped because he saw my body language, knew I was in the military, and it would be a bad idea to press the point further. Not something I’m proud of to get so angry so quickly, but it seriously got on my nerves. My spiritual director is a priest at that parish and said to me one day that he thinks it would probably not be spiritually good for me to go to the NO .
I’ve had the same experience at my previous N.O. Parish…I hear you!!
@@paulward5071 at Christ the King in LV, NV. Once the priest broke out the liturgical dancers and only talked about putting on a good show, not only did my jaw drop, I left. How did we get here?
I think wherever you are, regardless if it's NO or TLM, we should continue to show reverence. It is the same body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ - the format doesn't change that fact.
I love Latin, and I love it when it is used in the Church, during Mass and by the faithful in general. Let’s face it, the Latin Mass is great. However, there is nothing more that I dislike than Latin when we use it purely out of vainglory. It is like the Pharisees who dressed in their elegant regalia simply so they could think highly of themselves and gain the esteem of their contemporaries. Truly, one is like a whitewashed tomb if he uses Latin for the same purposes. We must get caught up in living the teachings of the Church before indulging in the trappings of it.
perfect summation. spot on. TLM is wonderful, but the NO mass has everything in it that we need. If a person can't to salvation through the NO mass, it's not the fault of the mass.
@@carolynkimberly4021 I wasn’t saying that attending/praying TLM itself is vainglorious. I was referring to those folks who attend it out of a sense of vanity. There are certainly others who attend it without vanity, which is what I think ought to be done.
I attend a beautiful Novus Ordo. It's ad orientum, which I love the feeling of being led forward to God by my pastor. We have beautiful chant. The kyrie is in Greek, the Gloria is in Latin, as well as the agnus dei. We swing incense. The organ music is so well done and the hymns are traditional. The church too is very traditional and beautiful. To me, there is nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo if it's done with reverence for the sacredness of what is happening during the Mass.
All that you find beautiful in the Novus Or do you attend are elements of the traditional Latin mass.
That is what we call a unicorn Novus Ordo mass - almost impossible to find.
Wow what a blessing! I’ve been to about 8 NO parishes and never had that experience! It really does sound more like a traditional setting.
Someone take me to Latin Mass.
Where do you live? It's easy to find online where one close to you is
The only place I have found controversy regarding TLM is online and on social media.
Social media and comments sections are not real life.
The answer seems simple to me. Allow both to exist. Keep the ancient tradition for those who want to worship that way. I don’t understand poor Francis actively trying to suppress it. The diversity of the Catholic Church is what makes it beautiful.
I have my issues with Bishop Baron, but I will always give him credit for opening up effective dialogue with those outside the Faith. Oddly enough, when it came to talking about the TLM Baron wasn't as enthusiastic as Shia. Oh well. If Baron was saying mass in my town and a TLM was also happening at the same time, I'd think just for a moment if I'd want to hear Baron celebrate the mass, but I'd eventually choose the TLM.
Looking forward to see the Padre Pio movie too
I just started RCIA. I live about 2.5 miles from a Catholic church that still offers the Latin mass. This parish seems to embrace both liturgies pretty well. I moved here from a town where there was one tiny Catholic church that only did the Latin mass. It was beautiful, but it everyone did seem a bit stuck up to be honest.
Yep - he hit it. We are enthusiam's refugees now.
Loreto Publications has some wonderful books on the Traditional Latin Mass!
Pray like you mean it. Don't just say the words-ho, hum, we've said these words over and over again. Pray with conviction. Regardless of which Mass you prefer, be in the moment with the words, live inside the world the Mass creates. If we all do this, we will be more truly one.
Really good points especially insightful at 4:00 and the next minute or so. Glad Shia has greatly benefited from the Latin Mass - hope he finds reverent NO - sounds like he at least encountered it . Already a lot of misinformation on social media about Shia and TLM. One is that he was introduced to it by Mel Gibson. That is not what he said . He had already been introduced to it . But when looking for a TLM in LA and couldn’t easily find one, Mel Gibson told him where he could find one
This actir prrooves that feelings are central to those new to the Faith.
I watched the interview in its entirety and there was times I was drawn in and then others I was skeptical. He is promoting a film. I want to know more about why the Director of the Film Abel Ferrera chose Padre Pio. This man directed Bad Lieutenant, King of New York, etc... William Defoe I believe is in film, also star of Martin Scorsese, Last Temptation of Christ, just seems like certain stars get involved in stirring the Pot of Catholicism. When they start dropping in Stars like Neil Young, they start to become a lose cannon. And with editing and shutting off the camera, Word on Fire gets just enough out there to latch you on. The interview just brushes with Bishop Barrons help to mention Confession. Although, I applaud Bishop that he even brought it up. It did not seem to be on Shia's register. Padre Pio was huge on Confession and repentance. I have not seen the Film, how they address Confession in the Film, will be my decision on the Validity of the whole scene. St Padre Pio, Pray for us.
I am hopeful he made a conversion. I am fascinated by his story. And I am sure like all Catholic's Shia will struggle. I will pray for him. He is so vulnerable at this time. Hopefully he sticks with it. Jesus wants our whole hearts. You have to give up so much. Surrender so much. I hope we will see more from Shia.
I'm a "traddie" and Shia speaks honestly. I never once thought this is a farce. coming out as Catholic in Hollywood will destroy him potentially but he just doesn't care. that alone should put the cynical Catholics to rest.
We should not focus too much on complaining about the lack of perfection in the liturgy. But at the same time the actual text of the Roman Missal and the GIRM give us sure norms to use and follow. Why are these not being observed by almost every Catholic parish in America, or known and understood by most parishioners? That's the real concern about the Novus Ordo, that there is no objectivity in its observance even though the form itself is supposed to be quite fixed and reverent in itself.
Instead it has become just another example of the typical postmodernist chaos in our culture, and it is apparent that the people who preside as ministers in the liturgy and run the parishes either prefer it that way, or simply don't care about addressing it. Likewise at the bishops' offices, who barely can be bothered with anything related to liturgy, as long as the sacrament itself is not being invalidated.
I have no interest at all in leaving the Ordinary Form to join what I see as a bit of a cultish experience with an obsession with nostalgia at the TLM, that runs away from the problem instead of fights to resolve it. But why can't we all at local parishes and the diocesan liturgy offices agree to actually fix the actual problem? Why is it that difficult to get any traction whatsoever?
I don’t know what the basis of criticism of Bishop Barron could be. I’m a Protestant and I really like listening to the good Bishop. Regarding the guitars, drums, etc., it took me quite a while to appreciate it. There is some really good modern church music-as well as some not so good. In traditional hymns, there are some beautiful songs-as well as some not so good. My grandson for years attended a Lutheran church when he was young, but I found the hymns un-singable, LOL. Even the choir couldn’t sing it.
“There is enough here to be a saint”. Yes! Christ is present and True, and where He is there is grace to be a saint. My mom used to tell us that, in the days of late 1960s and 1970s, not to worry that much about some of the wacky stuff. Because we are here for Christ, and Christ is true. She could be outspoken about wacky stuff, but Mass is Mass, and you come for Christ, not the sermons, not the songs. She told us never to lose that.
The reason for the attraction to the TLM is that the Bishops will not deal with the abuses of the Novus Ordo that are rampant throughout the Church
@@Canisius19 I disagree. Even the reverent NO’s don’t hold a candle to the TLM. Just like the Low Mass isn’t as good as the High Mass, which isn’t as good as the Pontifical Mass.
I recommend Fr. Ripperger’s article on why the TLM is objectively better. It talks about the graces and the prayers, and not about the history or controversies. It uses biblical reasoning, etc.
Here is the link for the article.
www.u.arizona.edu/~aversa/modernism/Merit%20of%20the%20Mass%20(Fr.%20Ripperger,%20F.S.S.P.).pdf
@@Arkangilos but Christ’s action is the same, and that is What (and Who) we are there for. Everything else pales next to that real happening.
@@CrankyGrandma did you read the article? I recommend reading it so you can respond to my actual statement. The article directly addresses what you just said. Literally on the first page he addresses that and proves that that statement you made is not accurate when it comes to the merits of the mass.
Good discussion.
I went to my first Latin mass today and I had trouble following along by I loved it. Unfortunately where I live the 1 church that has it does it once a month. So I’m gonna stick with my parish and once a month I’ll go Latin.
Why is the conversation always about "beautiful liturgy" and "prefference"... So tired of hearing that, it's unfair to place tradition at the level of simply: "Yeah, Latin mass is more reverent and beautiful"... I went to two different NO masses where the different priest spoke about how it doesn't matter what religion you practice. You guys seem to not get the point, you are invested in Christ to the level that you made your work about it so you can have all the richness of the Church at your hands, but regular people simply have their mass and the preaching of their priest, and many times (sadly more often than not) in NO parishes you have a priest, a liturgy, and sacraments that do not lead people to the faith, do not give them a strong ground for them to become saints, I am really tired of listening to NO defenders that we cherish traditional sacraments and traditional lifestyle due to its beauty and reverence and that's it. Really tired and I really believe that it is unfair to hold such position.
Matt, you are right. I don't know any traditional Latin mass anywhere within my area (or even as far as 100 miles). I think it's even non existent in my state. So the best that i can do is just attend whatever non- traditional Catholic mass there is and make the most out of it.
Hey Matt, what are your thoughts about dividing the Latin and Norvus Ordo into two separate Catholic Rites? The Latin Rite which does the Latin Mass and the Roman Rite which does the Norvus Ordo? Just a thought
Michael Davies would often use 2 descriptors when referring to the New Mass. - Banal and Tedious.
There are exceptions, but not many.
1) Latin Mass is Heaven on earth.
2) Traditional Latin Mass and the Secret Recipe of the Saints
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3) Very pleasing to God
Matt, have you seen the full video?
Thank you
The WoF show just premiered a recap of the Shia interview and they avoided the elephant in the room. They did not discuss liturgy or speak on Shia’s affection for the TLM and his criticism of the new mass. I’m not a radtrad or into liturgical politics and I love Bishop Barron but why the dishonesty and disregard? It does seem shady - for all the talk of the evangelistic power of beauty and being against “beige Catholicism”… its like they are afraid or can’t admit they might be wrong. It’s like the mainstream church has to ignore the TLM movement and stereotype it as “fringe” instead of humbly embracing it and liberating it from the shadows.
Imagine if WoF became leaders of the TLM movement and normalized it. But no they don’t want to pay it attention or give it legitimacy.
I drive an hour to attend a TLM. It’s worth every minute driving and every drop of gas!
Go Trad or go broke. The Novus Ordo is the modern Martin Luther. All hail the Mass of the Ages!
in Europe we have already seen the movie Padre Pio. that movie is a serious fraud. it's not a christian movie. and it is not a film about Padre Pio. ti is a nonsensical, deceptive, perverse movie. I strongly suspect that Shia’s "conversion" is part of the evil marketing of that film.
Nice performance Shia the false brother!
What's interesting about this is when I speak to Catholic friends in europe, they seem to really like Baptist churches (Black American ones, specifically) because of the singing and music.
While I love the idea of the Latin Mass, we only have access to an SSPX mass which our diocese does not allow us to attend due to them not yet being in full communion with the pope. I still love the Novus Ordo regardless of the priest or the music or the sermon because Jesus is there truly present in the tabernacle, which in our church is centered directly behind the altar. And while most people receive the Eucharist in the hand, many of us receive on the tongue and a few of us get down on our knees. We had a beloved priest tell us a number of years back, that regardless of whether you receive in the hand or on the tongue, always receive Jesus in the most humble and reverant way possible as if we are beggars for the spiritual nourishment that Jesus gives us. We have a variety of music from different leaders (guitars and drums included) that is beautiful because of the praise being given to God. We have large families and lots of young people and rosary groups and bible studies and adoration. I get tired of strictly traditional Catholics thinking they are holier because of the type of mass they listen to. Good priests lead us all closer to Jesus regardless of the liturgical rite they celebrate with us.
There is no such thing as “not full communion”.
They are in full communion, they just don’t have canonical regularity. I’m not saying go to them, but they are in the Church.
As somebody who was way too young to hear any of this I am confused.
Why did they start doing away with the Latin Mass in the first place? Or at the very least what was their reasoning? Because I just walked into something that is very intense in the church and I have no context.
Hi Gary, I would direct you to watch the Mass of the Ages documentaries - they explain what happened/where things are going. They’re incredibly well done and do a good job of detailing everything.
They’ve made parts 1 and 2 and are going to release part 3 sometime in the near future. I’ll link parts one and two below.
Episode 1: ruclips.net/video/xdbwNMYKhw0/видео.html
there is definitely enough to be a saint but it's probably harder to become one, loving the Eucharist is much easier in the Latin Mass
I have kind of a peculiar take on this. I’ve been Catholic my whole life and have attended Mass (with the exception of about a three month period) every Sunday. I did not go to the Latin Mass until last year, and I really did not find anything to latch onto. I certainly understand how it appeals to some, but it did not speak to me at all in the way others say it does to them. It felt stiff and unwelcoming. I am the weird guy under 40 (23 to be exact) who likes the praise and worship style of music, when it is done respectfully. It makes me feel as though I’m in a much more “religious” state of mind, I suppose. Which is a very abnormal take, I grant, but we do exist.
@@carolynkimberly4021 It was hard to pray with everyone when everyone else seemed to be involved with other things. I had a Missal. Praise and Worship music is only Protestant if it contains errors. If it is written by Catholics and is doctrinally sound, there is no issue. It is rather offensive to imply that because I like a certain kind of music that I am becoming a Protestant.
@@carolynkimberly4021 Saying the Rosary, lining up for Confession, reading meditations unrelated to Mass. The Novus Ordo was created by the Catholic Church, it is a Catholic liturgy. Here is an example another issue I have with the Latin Mass. Those who frequent it tend to be dismissive of the edicts of the Church that they do not agree with. The hatred towards Novus Ordo, which is the Holy Mass, is frightening. The unwillingness to follow what is set forth by the Magisterium for the development of doctrine is really what feels Protestant. Certainly there are Novus Ordo liturgies that abuse the Mass, but are you suggesting that before Vatican II, there were no liturgical abuses? It is only more common in Novus Ordo because Novus Ordo is more common.
@@edwardg8912 Well said! Those who attend TLM are always criticizing those going to NO mass. It reminds me of the attitude of the pharisees, and what was Christ's reaction???
Just saw this, after about 9 months. You are just manufacturing a straw man. TLM does not guarantee people will not leave the Church (see the Protestant Reformation). All of what you are saying is peddled at the NO just is not. You may be hearing that it is from the one priest whose masses you have attended for the last 10 years, but he’s not correct. I’ll say a prayer for you, my pharisaical friend.
I think it’s interesting that the way things are done in America always feels non genuine where you see other countries doing roughly the same thing but feels completely different. I was confirmed through an American church and I always felt left out but when I go to Latin mass, everything and everyone feels connected idk man
I think ‘newcomers / outsiders’ reactions to Catholic liturgy are very revealing. Every one of my non-Catholic friends who has attended a novus ordo mass for funerals, weddings etc. - have all said the same thing: “it was mega cringey…couldn’t take it seriously”. Quite the opposite reaction when they attended a Latin mass.
He says alot of good stuff
Different mass affect different people in the stages of their relationships with GOD
But Shia fails to realize why we are there in the first place
Worshiping & Receiving god in the eucharist is so Grand doesn’t matter how things go before
I see guitar playing as worshiping god by signing .. can’t go wrong with that
Latin mass are beautiful but when you see the bigger picture
You see it alll as beautiful ready to touch people in their way needed
5:19 I wonder why that is? The ancient liturgy is being attacked and shut down all over the world, bud.
I dont know why protestant and church are fighting i find positive on both sides i love the traditional Mass but i Also love a good preach i feel its Also more connected to regular life
Novus Ordo. The lukewarm mass of the modernists.
I love the Novus Ordo Mass.
Love TLM, the local church that has it, gives it to a really lousy priest who cant carry a tune, and is full of rage.
I agree with you Matt, I have listened to plenty of critics of the novus ordo who themselves lead a pretty lackluster lifestyle. If the mass is meant to draw us into greater communion with Christ then they are not showing the Latin Mass is better by how they live.
While true, I have met more good Catholics at a TLM than at the NO. By good I mean they follow the moral laws, they believe in the teachings of the Church (all of them), they aren’t washy, etc.
it might be regional, but most Catholics I’ve met at the NO parishes I’ve been to reject catholic teachings such as “there will be people in hell”, and believe things like “it’s ok to make out with your girlfriend” “you can spend the night at your girlfriends house” “the Eucharist is the actually just the symbolic body of Christ and not His real body” “you can wear whatever you want, including slutty clothing, to Church” “the death penalty is immoral” “Protestantism is just another branch of our church and Protestants don’t need to become Catholic” “I can go to a Protestant service” “there is no such thing as a bad catholic or evil people” “baptism isn’t necessary” and “it’s ok to receive the Eucharist after having committed a mortal sin before going to confession, and I tell the children in my class that.” (That last one actually was told to a group of us going to become confirmation counselors, and when I said that was against Church teaching and a sacrilege I was fired from the program not just by her but by the priest, whom I love. I wrote a hand written five page letter to that priest about why I spoke out against it, and gave the relevant citations from several different catechisms and documents). I’ve also heard them say things like, “Jesus was not a Catholic. Neither were the Apostles.”
Nothing on that list has ever been said by anyone at my TLM community. Do we sin? Yes. But we also acknowledge that and don’t pretend we aren’t sinning.
I have also never heard anyone at mass make jokes before, during, or after mass. Heck, I’ve never heard them talking before, during, or after mass (while still in the main room).
Everyone at the TLM shows up, kneels for prayer before, attentively participates during, and after mass they kneel and pray again for five to ten minutes. Then they quietly leave, cross themselves before they exit the door, and *then* start talking when outside. That is something I haven’t experienced at *any* NO I’ve been to.
We don’t need to sell Jesus, he is very good at selling himself. Life eternal and forgiveness.
Born and raised Roman Catholic. Was an "Alter Boy" in my youth Drifted away in my late 20s and only recently returned as a regular worshiper in my 50s because of the TLM.
My lapse...call me whenever names you want....was basically because as a Man almost every NO mass I went to felt like I was visiting a ladies knitting circle.
Masses that seemed like they were led more by the lady cantors/readers than the Priest.
Churches with the organist on a platform in the font of the Church sharing attention space with the Alter.
Hippie-like fiok music. Full bands with drums and tambourines. Hand holding and Kumbaya-like atmosphere. Way too mega-church/protestant IMO.
Awful Hymns.
The "Prayer of the Faithful" used as a "let's pray for this secular political/woke/worldly issue -of-the-day.
Heck I even went to an Easter mass where the power point projection screens (seriously) were used to remind us not to be Anti-Semities before the reading of the Passion (seriously).
Decor that seemed way more fitting in my wife's dressing room than in a Church Men are expected to worship in too
And on and on and on.
Say all the "the NO Mass can/could/may/is possible to be respectful/worshipful if done right " platitudes you want. In my opinion, if you have to look that hard for that sort Mass then there's something wrong within the Church. Shouldn't most NO masses should be respectful and less secular?
Shia’s conversion is tricky. We need to have hope. We need to be mindful of his human-ness too.
We discussed how to interpret celebrity conversion on The Simpleton Podcast:
ruclips.net/video/96zVWbFjWdw/видео.html
Even if TLM is more reverent, the NO is a valid Mass if done by a valid priest and should be held in great respect; we are still receiving Christ in the Eucharist, and it pains me to hear people degrade it. How can any form of the Mass that validly brings us Christ in the Eucharist be anything less than miraculous and beautiful?
From Guatemala, Central America. I´ve heard the many criticisms of Novus Ordo Mass over there in the USA, but i don´t understand it, (maybe because you come from a rich well educated country). I've never experienced Latin Mass, my parents did when they where kids, I´m 47. But I have never had those questions about how bad the Novus Ordo Mass is. The music, guitars? Many times we don´t have the money to buy the instrument (an old guitar will do), I´ve been once in a Mass where the Marimba was used, and it was a beautiful mass, it was in a mayan comunity where the Mass is said in the mayan language of the comunity. Hey, many times the musicians are bad! Where I go to mass many times there is only a woman singing, and she is bad, she can´t sing in tune but she never miss Mass. Its a small,, for you I guess, ugly church and poor in a poor comunity. But there is Christ in the Proclamation of the Gospel, in the Eucharist and all the time I go out at the end feeling at peace with grace. My devout, devout grandmother (born in 1932) who never missed a rosary said to me that with the Novus Ordo she began to understand and participate better in the Mass.
Having said that I regret that the Latin Mass is not easily accesible in my country and I feel disapointed at the clergy for that. I´ve asked many priests why is that and one once told me with a smirk :I don´t even know latin.
In American parishes it is common that the music is ill-fitting not out of lack of good options, but with the apparent prime motivator of being entertainment first and perhaps reverent second. It's not the instrument, it's how you use it! I did not think the folk group at the parish where I grew up was great, but aside from being on the altar (this was in the basement chapel) they were more appropriate for the Mass than any contemporary group I remember since. One is supposed to try to perform one's best, but it's not a performance.
I have only been to a Novus Ordo Mass myself, and I find that there is a lot of variance in how reverent it is. I think there are too many contemporary groups and that there are a lot of paths within contemporary music for becoming a distraction. Lyrics projected on screens and lyrics without music for the congregation to at least stare at confusedly are not good ideas.
Truth be told, the liturgical warfare in the US of A is such a 1st-World church problem.
Well, I'd like to politely disagree with the notion that novus ordo can appeal to everyone. It CAN communicate what all people need to hear but Labeouff has a significant point. When we take into account the dimensions of human personality (speaking psychologically) there is no way we can ever say "one size fits all". It is why I don't agree with our pope on the elimination of TLM. Testimony of TLM's powerful effect, even IF on a minority of Catholics, is STILL significant.... the first thing my mind conjures is the parable of the lost sheep! Can we reject testimony of lost sheep like Labeouff just because someone thinks he ought to find more in novus ordo? Its not as if he went to some "new age-y" thing... he went to the past.
I truly and honestly cannot see ANY advantage to disregarding or discarding TLM. Pope Francis may think its in the name of inclusion and participation... but some think its about a loss of tradition and dilution. We ignore BOTH sides at our own peril.
Let us imagine Saint Peter and Paul in Rome celebrating or at the breaking of the bread, with the Christians during their time. I would think, Jesus is there truly present with them. I could say the Passion of Lord and his Resurection, Heaven on earth. Wonder and Awe. just by imagining it.
Yes indeed ..the Paschal Mystery re-presented for us and for our salvation. it's sufficient ...no matter how well or how badly we sing.
Mate reach out to Bug Hall. Alfalfa from little rascals.
He was abused as a child, most of his friends took their own lives.
He got caught addicted to dust buster. And he has converted and has a beautiful wife and children. They live on a farm and every moment of every day is spent teaching his toddler daughter how to please God.
He's the only child actor to beat Hollywood with God's help
Matt you have me back. I have seen way too much judgement passed on Novus ordo, Barron, The Pope etc... all lacking in obedience to the one commandment, agape. Whenever I hear a channel blowing up on those things I immediately turn them off then unsubscribe. Agape et Shalom
I will take whatever the church will give me. What I needed is the body of Christ, it is more than enough to sustain me.
“There’s enough there…”. Matt said in referring to the New Mass. Just enough, or barely enough ?
If that what Our Lord wishes for us ?
Is there a way to elevate the novus ordo? Make it more authentically activating and authentically reverent? Can we put some latin in as a beautiful call back to tradition?
I really love kierie eleison chant. My dad wrote a modern worship song from those words in the chorus years back when our family knew no Catholics at all...
These things don't have to be rejected as old and unrelatable. In actual fact, deep meaningful origin gives more authenticity to things than popular recent interest from the masses...
Also I don't even know why we are trying to convert people via the mass. Maybe the richness of a mass can convert a biblical Christian. But for most people, the are converted by a connection to a real authentic Christ living people.
Two things:
1) No, because the NO was written to disregard the Catholic tradition (seriously, look into the forming of it).
2) Fun fact for your second part, the Mass is divided into two sections, the Mass of the Catechumens and the Mass of the Faithful. Waaaaay back (prior to the 1000’s), the non Catholics were dismissed right before the creed because the Creed to the end were special privileges for just the Baptized Catholics.
Just as small point...the Kyrie Eleison is Greek ...but I hear what you are saying...I do love the music , but the Eucharist celebrated in a farmer's thatched house also appeals.
I think he was talking about the SSPX as he later says, you can't just google where these Masses are held.
he's talking about the traditional latin mass in general I believe what with all the restrictions that have been happening :(
Nah he’s just talking about LM in general.
@@chloedavis3457 yeah I have been trying to look for it myself but it is very rare
I’m orthodox and I hate to see TLM stripped from y’all. Praying your tradition is purged of the careerists and modernists.
latin is not a sacred language, there is not such thing, the latin mass is the same sacrifice, the same divine litugie that the mass in the vernacular languages. it is contraproductive to the essence of the church the lack of evolution in the means, the content and message is inmutable, the forms and means have and will continue to evolve, for the gospel will always have somenthing to say to the human culture trough the ages
Once you go to Latin mass, novus ordo is a joke
Glad Shia is in a sacramental church ☦
Matt is now playing both sides…🤦♂️.
What happened?
Is there enough there at the Novus Ordo to make you a saint? Maybe if you are already catechized, and your conscience is well-informed. But children who see adults showing absolutely no reverence for the Eucharist - that does terrible things to their chances of becoming saints. That's the problem. It's almost as if the adults got together at Vatican II, and said, "you know, we're kind of bored, so let's make the liturgy more interesting." What they removed from the liturgy was the reverence, and to say these children raised in the Novus Ordo can become saints is incredibly optimistic.
How could Jesus message have any success without the Latin Mass?
Probably because He's God, you're not, and neither was Lefebvre.
I’ve tried going to the new mass and it was like going to a whole different religion. There was no reverence nor inspiration.