Scott Hahn on the Latin Mass
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- Опубликовано: 12 июн 2024
- This clip is taken from an older livestream with Dr. Scott Hahn. Watch the full interview here: • The Conversion of Dr. ...
In this clip, Dr. Hahn talks about why he embraces both the Novus Ordo and the Latin Mass, and why both are important to him as a Catholic, plus the trend he's seeing of more and more young people becoming attracted to the deep reverence of the Latin Mass.
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My wife and I tested out the Latin mass a week ago and went back this week. It’s incredible. 20 altar boys. 4 priests. Every woman wearing a veil. It has been very eye opening. The church is packed out and full of mostly young families.
As one of those "young" Catholics (under 40) I agree with everything! I've never experienced TLM but, wow, do I want to! I'm fully removed from the conflicts that Vatican II brought, both because of my generation and because I'm a convert. But I see what the Church was and it was beautiful. It breaks my heart that I missed it.
Get rid of the hippy boomers in the Parish Councils and get rid of the tambourines. Bring back the altar rails, bring back only receiving on the tongue, bring back the incense, bring back the Latin, bring back the veils. Bring back the culture of being an unapologetic CATHOLIC.
The Church changed the Mass, not Hippies, boomer or otherwise. You are not removed from anything if you are in the Church
You young people are the future and you are in for a long fight to wrestle the Mass out of the distruction of the last 45/50 years but you will prevail as the Holy Spirit is with you....
💯
The opposition to the TLM seems to mostly come from older priests and bishops. I'm cautiously optimistic that once the Silent and Boomer generations have retired from Church leadership that some of the contentiousness between these two liturgical wings of the Church will decrease. Those generations lived through Vatican II and are emotionally invested in it in one way or another. I'm hopeful that younger generations of priests and bishops born after the council will be able to look more objectively at that period of history and be able to have a more honest assetment of the impact the reforms actually had on the Church. Personally, I think the Church needs both forms of the mass to serve the world today, but we need to stop fighting with each other over it and just allow both. I hope I live long enough to see both forms of the mass be offered within a 30 minute commute of everyone in the world.
@@randyjones3050 There is the Trad Mass, and the Trad way of being Catholic. I do not see women giving up what many see as gains for them to go back to the way it was 100+ years ago. I do not see the Laity in general giving up what it may perceive as gains in its voice to participate and guide the Church
Over Christmas break we attending a NO mass in the Diocese of Tucson. Father sat down while one deacon and 5 Eucharist ministers distributed the body of Christ. How much damage occurs in parishes/diocese like this. I’m not angry about it, I’m just sad to watch so many friends and family leave the Faith because this is their experience with Catholicism.
would you say the N.O. mass is invalid, all of them?
You mean five laypeople? Only the priest is a Eucharistic minister
@@ScreamingReel500 they in no way insinuated that. That is an extreme ASSumption.
@@ScreamingReel500 It’s valid, but barely. Only if the priest changes the words of the consecration will it become completely invalid. It would be valid if the closest Latin mass was nine hours away, one way and it’s not practical to do that (For example, if you work a 9 to 5 weekday work schedule and you can only go to an evening mass for a holy day of obligation, light, November 1, and you can’t drive the nine hours to go to the Latin mass. Of course, that is probably only gonna happen if the 9 Hours Drive is because you live in some remote area of a country.
@@ScreamingReel500 yeah i dont think that you can call NO invalid. Let the Hierarchy in the Church deal with these questions.
Every time Scott speaks I’m consistently impressed by both his intellect and wisdom. Just dang.
I was a child when the Church gave up the Latin mass and I still miss it I wish a church in my area offered me the option of attending it
Ask your parish to perform the OF in Latin. Always been an option
@@john-el9636 or at least some of the fixed prayers. It’s better than nothing.
@@john-el9636 EF is the peoples heritage. They are entitled to it. These people are dancing around the problem.
@@patrickmelling8404 That statement has literally never been true. Christ's Church doesn't owe you a certain form of liturgy. On the contrary, the Church has the full privilege of allowing and reforming rites as it sees fit. "The people" never have.
What a joy to hear you Matt and Dr. Hahn in this discussion on the mass. You are both a breath of fresh air. I attended my 5th ever Latin mass on new years day. It was breathtaking and I felt I was transported to Heaven and participating in the heavenly liturgy. I was completely awestruck. This also may be due to the fact that it was the day the Church celebrates Mary, Mother of God. I love both the Novus Ordu and the Latin mass, but I have to say the liturgy, the reverence and the holiness of the Latin Mass is indescribable. Praise God and greeting from Ireland.
This hits the nail right on the head! 🙌🙌🙌 We should all be happy about discovering these ancient treasures and bring them back into our liturgical lives. I get so excited when I read about old traditions. Every valid Mass is heaven on earth...AMEN!
Praise be to God! This man enriched my faith!!! I'm so grateful to him. It makes my heart so happy to hear that he has finally embraced the TLM.
Matt, I must say I love how you interview people. I like the questions you ask and I enjoy how casual the conversation is and how you put your interviewees at ease. And I always love listening to Dr Hahn. He is just the epitome of joy. You never hear him speaking without seeing the smile behind his words. Thanks for this. I always learn a lot from your episodes.
This changes everything!
My first TLM was over this world. 🤯❤️🎉😍
This is excellent and compassionate. Thanks for posting this
Cradle Catholic of 37 years and just discovered TLM at the start of this year. It felt like discovering a rich inheritance that was hidden from me my whole life. I can’t go back to NO. Let both exist, I don’t think NO is heretical, but it’s not for me anymore and don’t think it ever was for me.
Agreed. I don't want to forbid other Catholics from attending a NO guitar mass if that is where they want to go. However, in return, I don't expect the Church to force me to attend the guitar mass either because it is my only option. All I ask is that both forms be made readily available and let the faithful go where they are being best spiritually fed.
This was such a timely post for me thank you
I live in a NO only diocese, but I have been organizing my friends and we've been traveling outside the diocese to Latin Mass. While I can't say I follow everything that happens, I do enjoy the reverence that I have seen when I go. I pray that one day I will see TLM in my own diocese and even the old church nearby in town.
God Willing!
Always love Dr Hahn who brings everything into a synchronised landing.
So beautiful! Dr Hahn is completely right that our Faith is not an 'either... or...', it's a 'both...and...' - the transcendent beauty of the liturgy in both forms of the Roman Rite is something that ought to unite us, not divide us!
Sorry but as a volunteer musician I see little beauty in the NO which is essentially a dialog Mass imposed by 60's fanatics who banned the old one years ago. Beauty has all to be added, but you end up churning mediocrity. Its just not that good. The rediscovered TLM by contrast, is the best fulfilment of the letter and spirit of Vatican 2. All the music fits.like a.glove and takes it to another level again.
I'm in RCIA and I've only been to two parishes. The first was an FSSP church (Latin only) and my current one does a very reverent Novus Ordo and offers the Latin mass as well. I love both! But I feel a bit sheltered because I haven't experienced what I would call a poorly done liturgy as of yet.
Most 'poor' Masses, unless you're in the US/UK, usually are more lackluster and irreverent than downright insulting. The abuse of extraordinary ministers, no form to the actions within the mass, very casual, Eucharist is given often haphazardly, etc. The experimental and strange masses are more or less in the past, unless you include the Charismatic movement.
Oh you will… You will my friend…
I'm a Protestant trying to discern conversion right now. In my observation, the truly weird masses seem to be rare even though they get a lot of attention in traditionalist circles. The closest Latin Mass for me is well over an hour's drive away. Unfortunately, the only nearby masses in my city are lackluster Novus Ordo masses. One of the stumbling blocks for me has been that I get a better communion liturgy with reverent organ music and chanting in my current small Protestant congregation than I can find in any of the local Catholic parishes. It's very sad and discouraging.
None of the Catholic masses I've attended have been irreverant, but they have not been well executed either. The mass just generally feels too casual in it's execution and the music ranges from simply "blah" to "bad". The mass that broke my heart is celebrated in a big beautiful pre-Vatican II church with the high altar still intact. However, the mass was celebrated on a free standing wood table in front of the high altar and the music was led by a single female singer and an acoustic guitar. I left during the communion distribution because the music was just terrible.
I've been going mass since I was little, I have never seen a poorly done liturgy, and I've never been to a Latin mas. I'm 40 now. I've lost count how many Catholic Churches I've been to in my area, only one does the Latin mass and I wouldn't be caught dead there.
The Lamb’s Supper woke me up but after attending NO for my entire life, even after reading the book, I couldn’t see heaven on earth. Stumbled into a TLM 15 years after reading the book and saw The Lambs Supper. Why are trads mad? We had something stolen from us. Then we find it. And now the Holy Father is attempting to take it away again. Jesus did not smile at the Passion. Thank you.
@Jimmy, Well said!
I appreciate that Dr Hahn rightly uses the word “superior” when discussing the TLM.
The TLM has definitely been transformative for me and I think obviously a superior expression of the Catholic faith - in that it is a perfect expression of trinitarian worship- a perfect reflection of Catholic belief - transcendent - sacred- and Holy. I grieve on some level - whenever I attend the Novus because I see all that the Church has tossed away by changing the liturgy.
Our Latin Mass parish has had 6 vocations in the last two years and had to add a third priest to accommodate the needs of the parish community. Standing room only - and considering adding a forth mass on Sundays as the parish (of which 65 percent are under the age of 40)- continues to grow. What are the Church authorities so afraid of that they deem it acceptable to squash this venerable rite?
Agreed
We should always strive to offer God our best
I am a seminarian. I am not anti-Vatican II and I love both Extraordinary and Ordinary Form of the Latin Rite. Please pray for me. Pope Francis highlighted again the restriction and difficulty of the process to celebrate the TLM.
Me and some of my companions are in the same exact situation
Love that explanation by Scott Hahn.
Thank you.
Matt, I'm glad you asked about Dr. Hahn about leaving the Roman rite for the eastern rites. I'm blessed enough to live in a small city with a Catholic church on seemingly every corner. In our city there are NOs, my TLM parish, an Ordinariate, and a number of eastern rite churches. I enjoy attending the eastern rite churches and appreciate the beauty of their tradition, but I cannot find it in myself to leave the Roman rite for a foreign rite. I also have to check myself from falling into the "spiritual tourism" of attending an eastern church for a purpose other than worship. The way I look at it is this - through my baptism and my thoroughly western heritage, God gave me the incredible blessing of the Roman Catholic Church and all its traditions. I don't feel right rejecting that gift because I believe I know better than God.
Two aspects that are missing from the vast majority of Novus Ordo Masses (even the ones done by the book in the suburbs) are what I deem beauty and body language. You will find these in the Latin Mass as well as the ad orientum Novus Ordo Masses.
While the Mass (TLM, NO, etc.) has an inner beauty, having an external beauty serves to reinforce the inner beauty of the Mass. God made us with five senses to give us a first impression of something and to have that external beauty draw us closer to that thing. For example freshly baked bread smells good so we want to eat it. Spoiled milk smells bad so we don’t drink it. A home has good curb appeal so we want to live there. The external beauty items at Mass would be things like good architecture, beautiful music, and incense. One would experience the external beauty at Mass and would want to come back and hopefully want to learn more about the Mass and the Catholic faith. Unfortunately so many Masses are in churches with bland architecture with bland music. We should take advantage of how God made us and incorporate elements of external beauty to draw people in.
The body language aspect would be actions we take that are an expression of the Catholic Faith. This would be things like kneeling when receiving Communion and ad orientum posture of the priest. Regarding which way the priest is facing, if he is facing the people it can give people with little knowledge of the Catholic Faith the impression that Mass is being said to them the people. The person getting the wrong impression would get the wrong impression from the fact that something in the secular world like a person giving a presentation or singing a song would be facing people. With this being the case, it isn’t unreasonable to think that someone would also think the Mass is being said to them when actually it is a sacrifice to the Father of the Holy Trinity. So many actions found in the Latin Mass like the genuflection, kneeling for Communion, and use of alter server patens are born out of a deeply held respect for and faith in Christ and should be included in the Novus Ordo. Similarly if a man loved his wife, you would expect to see that man perform actions as a sign of his love for his wife such as buying flowers or cooking her dinner on her birthday.
What are your thoughts on the Latin Mass?
The novus ordo was created by a freemason named Annibale Bugnini with the help of 6 protestant ministers
Ehh
I love it ❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥
Latin Mass is Holier than the Secular Mason Mass
See the first comment!
From experience, many of those who attend the TLM have no more of an idea about what is going on at mass than those who attend a NO.
This rise in popularity of the TLM seems to be more of protest against contemporary bs, and fair enough, but the thought that the rise in popularity in the TLM is a fad in and of itself cannot be ignored. Dr.Hahn himself says in this video that many of the Trads he meets are, in fact "MadTrads". Some of these MadTrads have even expressed doubts about whether or not their baptisms, which were done under the new rubrics, are even valid. Which leads them to real problems, not least of which is receiving communion at a TLM. Because if it were true that their baptisms were invalid than receiving communion would potentially be a great sin.
Also, Dr.Hahn brings up an important question when he asks about what would be the desires of young people if they were just simply handed the TLM? What changes would they desire?
Another thing to note is that many people do not have an issue with the rubric changes but rather have an issue with the style and manner of celebration.
Nothing more reverent than the Latin Mass,so beautiful, I attend Novas Ordo, spot on Scott Hahn, every Mass is beautiful,the Eucharist, cathartic, peaceful calm comes into my heart…….enjoyed this video…
I have been to great Latin masses and reverent novus ordo. I believe both can be richly fulfilling and think we should do whatever we can to get people into mass.
It was also great meeting Matt at this year's SEEK. Pints has helped me grow so much in my faith
My father was enraged after Vatican II at the appearance of electric guitars and drums at mass. I was born during the transition between the two versions of the mass. I remember the laminated cards after V II. I became an altar boy at that time.
I wish Latin mass was available near me.
As one of those young Catholics who didn’t grow up with TLM, it has changed my life in ways I cannot understand. It has opened my interest & openness to the Eastern Rites of the Church. I actually attend Divine Liturgy at a local Byzantine parish every other Sunday. I alternate between Divine Liturgy & TLM & they are so reverent & beautiful. However, as much as I love the Eastern Rites and I’m opening to attending their Liturgies, the Latin Rite is home for me. I very much agree with Scott Hanh on this.
As a priest who has been blessed to offer both the Novus Ordo and the Traditional Latin Mass, and who fully agrees that BOTH forms are an exchange of love in encountering heaven on earth, Dr. Hahn's relating of the story of the priest who remarked how he was able to disappear at the Latin Mass is so true. I often tell people that to offer the Novus Ordo is MORE difficult than the offering of the Traditional Latin Mass - for though the TLM certainly has far more ritual detail, that detail in itself makes it easier to surrender to the rite and allow it to become what it is meant to be, rather than having to focus on the externals so often associated with the Novus Ordo and its multitude of options, where "understanding" and "relevance" are so often exalted beyond reverence and attentiveness to detail in offering oneself, and therefore risks making it more about "us" than about the worship offered through Christ to the Father.
wow...an Australian thinktank Dr Bob Santamaria, said that when you make any little change in liturgy you have to have evidence first that it is for the best, he likened it to throwing a pebble in a pond, and having a ripple effect on the entire Church....this helped me considerably to attend the Latin Mass despite the alien forms in language .....30 years later I still attend it as my preference due to the transcendent forms in wording and gestures, the silence where our hearts lurch upwards to God and His mysteries....it is one big act of adoration....What Dr Hahn said reminded me of what Dr Santamaria had said which helped me immensely overcome my narrow Irish Jansenistic tendencies to be drawn to only that which was immediately sensible
Young people are increasingly attracted to tradition, reverence and the real presence, yet it is under attack. How does that speak to us,...?
Many don't know this, but the base language of the Ordinary Form is actually Latin. Second, the vernacular has been used by missionaries for centuries for obvious reasons, and one involves being able to understand what one hears at Mass. The same goes, BTW, for the Bible and even the sermon. Finally, the Ordinary Form was used because it has a cycle of readings that gives the faithful more exposure to Scriptures.
Kinda important to hear this in 2024 cause the ride promises to be wild to the finish flag.
I’ve been going to the TLM for about a year now, prefer it, and kinda don’t want to look back. There’s only one parish that does it in the area, and the rest are novus ordo parishes so it feels like a rarity, instead of the norm unfortunately. There’s a whole number of novus ordo parishes next to me, but I prefer to go further in distance to attend the TLM instead, worth the trip!
The Laity of older generations went with what the church changed, they didn't have a voice or a choice in the Liturgy change. They didn't reject anything because it wasn't up to them.
Couldn't agree more! 👍
@Matt Fradd firstly DEO GRATIAS for you and your channel. You were like a candle flame in the darkness when I was lost. One year after I randomly found your channel I came back to Holy Mother Church after being Apostate since the mid 90s.
Secondly I pray for a council on TLM and Trads. It boggles my mind that we have a synod for woke-ist beliefs but nothing for allowing the Laity to have the 1500 yr old Traditional Mass and the ancient Traditions that go with it.
Lastly one things for certain, we have got to come together in peace without out fighting to work out this difference. This fighting, my family and I have been dealing with it for over 40 yrs. Lead to a lot of damage in our family. (We need to be fighting the evil in our world not each other) In my own experience, it tires the soul and can lead to getting stuck in the mud (pun intended).
The extraordinary form isn't 1500 years old. It's a late medieval/ Renaissance form of liturgy. The Roman Rite in the first millennium looks more like the ordinary form. Just look at the Ordo Romanus Primus
@@john-el9636 No it doesn't. That is total nonsense made by dishonest liturgists to justify ruining the liturgy. We know about Latin Mass since the 2nd century, and all the changes were natural progression of the liturgy to make it better at accomplishing the goal of worship. That nearly 2000 year lineage was shattered with the Paul VI Mass, which has been a failure worldwide and stripped the majority of prayers from the liturgy.
@John from Accounting That's a big nope there.
First, the EF is no more the "Latin mass" than the OF is. Both are officially promulgated in Latin, and both can be done in the vernacular.
Second, how do you know ALL the changes were "natural" and beneficial? What was so great about abandoning the reception of the wine? Or the addition of the prayers at the foot of the altar that serve no unique purpose? Or the Last Gospel, which started as a private devotion for priests after mass and turned into an addition that comes after the celebrant dismisses the congregation for some reason.
My point is that the whole "organic development" idea is often misunderstood, as if that means the liturgy can only get bigger and more complicated. The whole point of the liturgical reform was to better accentuate the point of the mass since people found it obscured by the heavy amounts of ritual that most parishioners didn't even really grasp. There's a reason why people ended up as "silent spectators" at the mass with the EF. It's because it doesn't lend itself to being understood very well. Plus it's intrinsically distant from the congregation. The EF feels more like a private mass for the celebrant that people happen to be around for than typical liturgy. A good comparison is eastern liturgy. Which, in general, strikes a good balance between active participation and the importance of the clergy. I think the fact that people were told to just pray the rosary for years when the EF was the norm speaks volumes about this problem. Imagine your liturgy being so detached that people need to busy themselves with a devotional instead. That's a big problem. Hence why the idea for reforming the liturgy was extremely popular.
Your criticism of the OF seems to come from a poor grasp of the new missal. First, there was no 2000 year precedent broken here. The liturgy has been reformed and altered tons of times already. Often to the chagrin of the laity. After Quo Primum in 1570, the west didn't just entirely throw away their old missals and accept the new one from Pius V without question. It literally took centuries for that reform to be fully implemented in places like France and Germany. Does that mean that reform was a failure?
How do you assume that the form of liturgy in use by 98% of the Catholic Church today is somehow a worldwide failure? The same liturgy that has sustained Saints and had miracles occur in it. It's also the form that's most popular in Africa and Southeast Asia. The places where Catholicism is growing the most. If it was such a failure, we'd expect none of these things to happen right? And please don't try to say that liturgical abuses somehow mean the newer missal is deficient. Liturgical abuses weren't uncommon before Vatican II, and even after the council, we saw the emergence of these abuses occur in the 60s. Ie, before Missale Romanum. So those abuses can't be pinned on the OF. Point is, the people who commit liturgical abuse will do it regardless of which missal they're using. They don't care about the rules in one, so why would they care about the rules in another?
Oh, and the 1970 Missal didn't "strip most of the prayers from the liturgy." It altered most of the prayers to indicate their purpose more clearly. Which isn't remotely problematic.
Anyway, I just wanted to share these thoughts with you. No ill will here. Just don't like seeing people adopting problematic and relatively schismatic ideals is all. God bless
@@john-el9636excellent points, thank you.
As a recent convert to Orthodoxy after 20 years of atheism, what initially interested me about Christianity was the beauty, mystery, reverence and solemnity. Those ancient rites feel just right when you contrast them to a chaotic and decadent world, they are like a well of meaning in a desert of materialist absurdity.
The fight between the Rad Trads and the Novus Ordo is silly. God abides in the church. The sacraments are real in any language. However, I love the Latin Mass. It was what I had for the first 7 years of my life, and I kneeled down to receive my fist communion. The sacrament was Holy and Sacred. The deep reverence that was given the sacrament of communion at that time made Christ real to me.
Yea! There’s a word for me! Glad Trad! I too am a convert and have mostly known the norvus ordo but I love and am very drawn to TLM, still when I seek this out I’m very turned off by so many of the Rad Trad that simply put seem very mean spirited and so rejecting of all masses outside TLM it loses me. So many of them seem blinded by their own Pride.
It's all in the Catechism which JP2 commissioned Cardinal Ratzinger work on and to give us the current Catechism. Ironically, people praise Pope Benedict 16th (for the TLM) and rejecting his most important works, picking and choosing what they like and reject what they don't.
I am 62 years old, born in 1960, so I was totally raised on "Novus Ordo". I'm sure that Latin Mass could be beautiful and I like the Conventional Mass, but I really don't understand all the "Novus Ordo" bashing from Traditionalists. Please explain.
Yeah, it can get pretty ugly. My faith has been forms through the Norvus Ordo mass. I don’t think Lord is fond of this divisiveness.
I haven’t been to a TLM yet, the increased reverence appeals to me greatly, but I would t understand what was being said and that bothers me.
Scott Hahn got “lex orandi lex credendi” wrong. Pope Pius XII spoke directly against this interpretation of it in Mediator Dei. Law of belief is the basis for the law of prayer, not the other way as Hahn says.
Some present “lex orandi lex credendi” as 'the way we worship is the way we believe', or 'how we worship is how we believe'. Which is illogical. We first believe then by the believing we worship. Yes, you are correct.
Another dimension of truth in translation is asking whether a text maintains the mystery or a sense of the sacred. In the East, mystery in worship is maintained largely by the iconostasis. In the West, the Latin language functioned as a kind of iconostasis of language.
Bishop Peter John Elliott
Did Scott Hahn go to Marquette University in Milwaukee? He mentioned Joan of Arc Chapel
I went to Marquette and I never knew this. Looks like he got his PhD from Marquette.
Scott Hahn is so wise
Our Blessed Mother has appeared during the times of the Novus Ordo mass. Never did she condemn it. I agree with Mr Hahn that the Trad Mass is superior, but if done properly, the Novus Ordo is valid.
It's been my experience that the far majority of Catholics who leave "the West" to attend a Byzantine rite church are refugees from a local Latin mass community. I don't know anyone that left because of their dislike of the NO.
"There's peace here," one of those former Latin mass attendees told me..
And Dear Folks, I believe that depression is coming, and will hit many very hard.
Franciscan University Presents a Catholic Guide to Depression. Put it in your library now. Best resource of information I've ever seen. The panel is like the finest ingredients for a Five Star Meal, each bringing something Good.
I love Scott Hahn
I think that the NO mass is a bit too liberal with what parishes are allowed to do. If the guidelines were tightened up, I can't imagine anyone would complain any more.
I Love TLM from India
Very simply, thank you Dr. Hahn for your joyful wisdom of "blooming where you're planted." I see this as a hidden example of our ultimate goal: total abandonment to God's will. St. Therese wanted to be a missionary; she never left her hometown and is a co-patron saint of missionaries. Boom. =)
Love the GladTrad, Tradicostal, Tradimatic nicknames. I’m a GladTrad! Traditionis custodes made me a Latin Mass advocate. Like Dr. Hahn I go to both but see many shortcomings with the NO. Like reception of the Eucharist in the hand. Also I don’t believe the NO is necessarily really what The Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium wanted.
Sacrosanctum Concilium said that Gregorian Chant had pride of place, and the use of Latin in the liturgy must be preserved. Now tell me how the Novus Ordo satisfies either of those.
Every culture needs to hear the liturgy, or the word in there OWN language. Provide both. Many of the “traditionalist” are angry and closed to ecumenism which speaks volumes.
I hope Traditiones custodes will be rescinded asap and Summorum Pontificum reinstated.
A Mass that has been around for over 1500 years... I think I will stick to it. DEUS VULT!
The extraordinary form hasn't been around nearly that long. It's a late medieval/ Renaissance liturgy
@John-El The Tridentine Mass as codified by the Council of Trent is the result of nearly 2,000 years of organic growth and development. It is not a late medieval creation, as it is not a CREATION in that sense at all.
@@john-el9636 Well, sort of. Its ordinary is hardly different than the oldest complete form of the Roman Rite that the manuscript evidence attests to. Further back than that, you start getting into speculative reconstructions, which may or may not be particularly close to their target. It is something like the development of the Latin language itself; the Latin of the 16th and 17th centuries had seen some development since the end of the Roman Empire, but nothing that would have made mutual intelligibility a challenge. The development of the traditional Roman Rite is analogous to that. The Novus Ordo is more like a ritual equivalent to Esperanto.
@Del Sydebothom Ehhhh no. I'd agree that the ordinary is quite similar to the Ordo Romanus Primus, which is as far back as we can go without getting too speculative. However, the Esperanto comparison makes no sense. The ordinary form is a restoration of the Roman Rite. Esperanto is a new language meant to be easily used universally. It's not an attempt to restore some old variant of another language. Also, the development of the "Tridentine form" is very different from the development of Latin. Especially when you look at the late middle ages when the Roman liturgy basically stagnated.
@@john-el9636 Well, a better analogy might be attempts at reconstructing proto languages, like Proto-Indo-European, but it wouldn't be a thoroughgoing equivilant. What I am honing in on, really, is the deliberateness of the attempt to construct something. There really isn't anything in the history of the Roman Rite that attests to something like the Novus Ordo Offertory, for instance, even if there are ancient prayers, used in other contexts, which form its foundation. There is very little of a curator's touch to the composition of the Novus Ordo, and the liturgical heritage of the Roman Rite didn't have pride of place in the process. All in all, I think it needs quite a bit of work still yet, mostly along the lines of aligning it with the rest of the history of the rite of which it is supposed to be an instance.
But why Latin? An honest question. I personally always felt more connected to Hebrew and Aramaic when it comes to prayer. As it was the language of our Lord and the language of the Israelites. Never understood the connection with Latin as it being the language of the nations.
Latin is proper to the Roman Rite, and a handful of others. There are discoveries at Pompeii that even call into question the old hypothesis that the Roman Rite was originally in Greek. The Divine Liturgy of St. James in Hebrew would be quite fitting and beautiful, though.
With all due respect Dr. Hahn, I think it’s silly to think that the rebellious teen stage would be the same if it were traditional masses up until this time. That would be to deny the objective differences between the novice ordo and tlm
Just as Chesterton said in Orthodoxy, after the experiments fade, what emerges is neither new philosophy or theology, it’s just philosophy, just theology.
The elephant in the room when comparing attendees of both TLM and NO is fidelity to Church moral teaching. Which of the two is more likely to use artificial contraception for eg.?
TLM is more likely to follow those teachings, but are also less likely to follow recent Magisterial teachings (i.e. anything after Vatican II)
I wonder what Mr Hahn thinks about the Pope virtually ending the mass of the ages and what he will do when it is further restricted.
I came in as a Charismatic Catholic (Unbound, Damian Stayne, Franciscan), and now I go to a Traditional Mass - I'm thinking Heaven's Mass is more like this?!! However I notice the Rad Trads can reject and distrust us who want to use Charismatic gifts to build up the body of Christ. I believe it is a good idea to bring the Charismatic element back in safely as Prophesy and Healing can be of great use right now! Your average unintellectual Joe in our culture needs a subjective encounter with Jesus. The Charismatic element of the Church is a rediscovery that needs cultivation and the right protective/discernment in place (I know I'm on a side tangent).
I can answer that question for you: I’m a glad trad who grew up with the Latin Mass, and I’m still glad and still trad! I’ve attended the new mass and never want to see it again. People who do that every Sunday must be too desensitized to realize what a weak, diluted substitution it is for the Mass Christ instituted.
Well, I think Vatican 2 got rid of the Latin mass. It was the church that stopped it, not my parents. Maybe they polled some people but to say we left these traditions behind isn't totally fair. What choice did we have, my parents didn't vote on the matter it was decided.
If someone has a positive remark about the NO, you seem to delete it.
Puns with Aquinas
I find the Catholic church is a treasure chest of beautiful ways to come to God and learn of his tremendous love for us. There are abuses in the current mass as well as in the history of the Lati mass. To say that one is better than the other can not be true. I have found great beauty in the vanacular, for I can understand it better. Vatican 2 was the work of God, not man, for Jesus gave that authority to his church. Man is the one who makes mistakes, not the Holy Spirit
I swam the Tiber in 2004-5, and what is now known as the OF was the only thing available. There was one EF in our parish, shortly after it was "legalized," and I was not impressed -- the priest was inaudible, but the prayers were being sung by an ensemble of nuns, and all I could hear was vowels. Don't get me wrong; I'm not anti-EF, but if I'm going to hear Mass, I want to HEAR the Mass. And I want a script, with an English translation. I'm a language geek; I'll pick it up eventually, but I'm not there yet. Oh, and I want to say the responses. In Latin, of course. Our OF is very reverent, so I'm fortunate in that respect, and as long as things continue in that way, I am satisfied.
This does beg the question what is the mass? Does the mass have to be strictly ritualistic in nature? Where is there space for experimentation in the mass, and/or is there space at all, and/or should there be space? I could, and I lowkey want to spend hours praising God and pondering His Word, meditating upon His life, and just soaking in the reality of His presence. And I also want a form of fellowship, a sense of coming together, with the Church, to worship. Of course, all of this happens in the mass, as we have it today, at least in an abstract sense, but isn't the whole point of the sacrements to make God's graces more receivable for us so we can properly take part in the salvation God continuously pours upon us? God's given us sacrementals and the sacremements for us to understand and enter into the reality of His graces. So the question remain, how should the mass be properly celebrated, and is a set format of things really necessary?
Its the mass of our fathers, the eternal mass of all ages.
No
Yes
@@michiDerMatt No
@@john-el9636 why no?
@John Howard Because the Mass of all Ages is just THE MASS. No matter the rite or form. Hence why the Catechism refers to the mass of all ages universally. Also the extraordinary form is a late medieval/ Renaissance form of liturgy. The Roman Rite didn't appear like that for most of its history
I just wish traditionis custodis was rethought by Pope Francis. In my city (one of the 5 largest cities in Brazil) we went from 3 weekly Latin masses to one in a not so large parish.
Thankfully in São Paulo we still have an abundance of traditional masses
That injustice is ignored by many.
It's like we aren't allowed to be unhappy about it.
I hate that.
A Trentacostal lol
One can not gloss over this staement "objective superiority" if this is true then what should one make of the extreme histility towards the Latin Mass the historical liturgy of the Church from the highest authorities within the church? It aint good for one to act as if there is something wrong with the liturgical patrimony that was handed down.
Well, I finally attended a TLM and it was definitely not all that the rad trads claim: the priest wore sneakers, his Latin pronunciation was terrible, and he rushed at distributing communion. There was not much reverence actually and a lot of lost attendees.
The solution is ultra reverence in the Novus Ordo with the TLM as an option. Train the seminarians right and speak more Latin in the Novus Ordo.
I was born with the Old Latin Mass and entered into the Latin Novus Ordo when Vat. II approved it in the 1960s. From 1960 to 1965 I had followed the historical and theological discussions that led to the Novus Ordo in Vat. II. I did not hesitate to accept the Novus Ordo in its Latin form and later in the English translation especially because I found the wealth of Scriptures in the Cycles ABC very enriching for the clergy and the laity. The Old Latin Mass had only one set of readings and I found it repetitive and not very enriching.
Many people left because they hated the Latin mass, didn't understand it, found it cold. Teens were always rebellious to some degree, I remember that well. I don't think it's the mass, it's the grace, the teaching. Any "new" thing for anyone is different until it isn't. The fight about the mass makes it even more appealing.Actually listening to it makes me very uncomfortable. To use a mass to argue what is "better". Scott is right, any valid mass is a glorious mass.
The people who changed the mass were not young. Bowing down to young communists and secularists is how the church has been killed.
I think this is a perfect assessment. Both valid but I simply have no desire to return to the NO. I grew up with Ad Orientem and gregorian chant, and what a blessing, but since discovering the TLM, I've come to find there is nothing that can rival the universal Liturgy and language consecrated over the centuries. It just ain't the same.
Nobody appreciates what they have...until they do not have it.
SSPX
There's always nostalgia about an imaginary past like the days before Noah's flood when people had longer lifespans. Yet they forget about the Nephilim causing havoc on earth.
The same can be said about the youngsters who now want the Latin Mass yet ignoring the time before Vatican 2 where the Church was very legalistic in its approach to life, where eating meat on Friday was seen as a mortal sin. Yet how can eating meat on Friday be a mortan sin when it is not even a venial sin to eat meat on the remaining 6 days of the week? How does sin change its nature from one day to the next? Also how can eating meat on Friday be compared with sins of murder, idolatry or adultery?
It is this kind of legalistic approach that the pre Vatican 2 Church had that caused their parents and grandparents to want nothing to do with the Latin Mass which is reminiscent of tge legalisticdays done away with at Vatican 2. Also if you as a priest could commit a dozen mortal sins by doing the Latin Mass wrong as a was told by a priest ordained before Vatican 2, like holding your fingers wrong when holding the host or doing the consecration, then this legslism will also destroy any reverence of the Mass.
How many of the young priests celebrating the TLM are thinking about the possibilty of committing mortal sins because their hands aren't extended at the right angle or distance when celebrating the Latin Mass. My guess is none of them.
My guess is if the youngsters of today also had to grow up in the pre Vatican 2 Church, they like their parents and grandparents would also have opted for the Vatican 2 changes including getting the NO Mass rather than the TLM. The solution is to celebrate the NO with reverence rather than just go back to the TLM.
It annoys me that the precursors to all these discussions have the obligatory "WeLl FiRsT of aLL, both are valid and great bla bla bla." Yeah, we get that. We are talking about something very obvious in the way each celebration of the mass TREATS that great and wonderful gift. And if you are dealing with the greatest gift given to us, the sacrifice of the cross present at every mass, as Catholics, we have such a great weight and demand on us to treat it in the most reverent way possible; it is dangerous. We are credibly questioning why the novus ordo is even necessary or a good idea of any sort. Framing it the way they do at the start feels like such a straw man.
You guys are lucky that you can "mass shop".
Why Latin? Why not in Arameic since that was the main language that Jesus spoke not latin. Is it about the vatican church or is it about Jesus?
Did catholics conduct masses in Arameic until V2?
The Latin mass is fine.But what’s the point is speaking a language no one understands?
Thats where you just said something wrong. Thinking that the latin mass is objectively superior is like trying to say one person of the trinity is superior to the other. The Novus ordos mass is actually a return to early tradition there are prayers there that were said at the beginning of church history. People we don't need liberal teachings but we also don't need fanaticism and rebellion against the holy spirit who leads his church in councils like the second Vatican council. We don't need more separation and division in the church but rather an obedience to the authority set over us even if some of those leaders have wrong beliefs. You do not need to worry about those wrong beliefs. They will not be made doctrine. We have the promise of the lord against that. Do not make the mistake of loving traditions more than God. The Pharisees in the bible made this mistake.
Please note that I don't condone Marijuana Masses and Clown Masses and other such things, but I cherish being able to attend a Mass in the vernacular. I guess I would appreciate the Latin if I had the opportunity to learn the language.
Marijuana Mass? Lol
Matt and Scott, be honest. How many NO Mass’ are reverently celebrated like you speak of attending?
I’m a mad Trad mainly in the sense that I was robbed of my inheritance because of the infiltration into the Church to try and destroy the faith
Scott Hahn is such a gifted speaker. Primarily he reminds us we are Catholic and things like the tensions over Novus Ordo or the Latin Mass are part of our aspiration to becoming more mature in our faith. In the UK we didn't seem to experience the FAD Masses as in other parts of the Universal Church. I was brought up in the 50s and 60s. The Latin Mass was part of my formative Catholic life. I witnessed the transition from Latin Liturgy into English and the establishment in 1970 [?] of the earlier version of Novus Ordo. Personally, as I have grown older I find my Missal has acquired card inserts where I feel the prayers of the Novus Ordo Mass are sometimes too short, too succinct? ...... and for my own benefit I have the option to include some of the more expansive prayers of the former Latin Liturgy written out in English. Some priests celebrating the Novus Ordo Mass have been able to retain the reflective pauses which featured in the original Liturgy of the Latin Mass. These I feel add to the solemnity and majesty of the Novus Ordo Mass. A priest friend recommended the need to prepare to attend the Mass. Spend some time .... maybe at home to reflect on the readings ... say for the Sunday Mass?. Get to church a littler earlier and say the St Ambrose's Prayer from the Missal [UK] to centre one's thoughts on what we are about to witness. If you can get hold of a copy of Romano Guardini's book 'The Mass' all will become much clearer on how to prepare 'to hear' Mass. God bless.
"We" didn't abandon anything. The "novo reforms" were foisted upon us without neither voice nor vote but via decree from the "infallible", his cronies and after the special counsel of "the chosen".
If neither the Catholic leaders, intellectuals nor the theologians admit such they are part of the problem and the eventual demise of catholicism. And, I daresay, not by accident.
Literally almost nobody complained when the new missal came out.
@@john-el9636 As a six year old at the time, neither I nor my contemporaries were at the stage of being able to do anything. We were just being exposed to the faith and were ignorant. As for the Elders at the time, they saw the Pope as God's direct voice and unchallengeable. They had been taught to not question any authority that the holy men possessed. They were simply Christ's flock of the faithful ignorant that they were now in the hands of the wolf in sheep's clothing. They were kept in the dark, understanding very little of what was actually occurring and having no possible foresight into the damaging revolutionary steps that were being taken to transform the Church. They were sold a bill of goods that it was being done to "save" the church by becoming more sensitive to the times and help stem the tide of the disenchanted leaving it.
In fact, more and more left the church since then. It did nothing but destroy the mystery/miracle of the transformation of the eucharistic and debased the liturgy, in general.
@John Elejalde You weren't taught wrong. All Catholics are obliged to obey their leaders. Even if they disagree.
Frankly, your account is hyperbolic. While it's true that many faithful Catholics were ignored and many clergy didn't properly implement the liturgical reform, that's no excuse for then saying we need to dump all that work just to go back to the form of liturgy that the Church doesn't care to continue with. Keep in mind that the number of Catholics interested in the extraordinary form is incredibly small
@@john-el9636 I agree with your last statement. The reason that it is so is that the overwhelming majority of catholics today did not experience it therefore have no reference nor do they know of what they've been cheated.
@@johneboy910 I experienced it, and I was greatly disappointed. I've found that I prefer a liturgy that isn't incomprehensible. My fiancée feels the same way. As do a number of other Catholics I've talked to
We older folks didn’t reject the Latin Mass even if some do now because the NO Mass has been around so long. No, the NO Mass was forced on us and we never knew we had a choice. I love the traditional Mass; that was my Mass until I was just out of high school. Don’t assume everyone liked the idea; I have no other Mass to attend. I am getting irritated with so many people telling me my Mass isn’t valid!
The vast majority of Catholics accepted the new missal without issue. It wasn't forced as you say it was
@@john-el9636 The vast majority of Catholics don’t even go to mass at all
@@folofus4815 98% of Catholics worldwide attend liturgy with the new missal
You lived where in the late 60s? We had no explanation as to what was happening, or why; it just happened. And like I said, we didn’t know there was a choice. If there’s no choice why complain? There was a lot of mumbling and grumbling, and the Church began bleeding out angry Catholics who no longer believed this new Mass was really Mass. and when the Gregorian Chant disappeared Mass was no different than Protestant services. No one had to think or focus, reverence was disappearing and the music was like going to a bonfire and having a ding-along.
I recall the NO mass was forced upon parishioners. Many including my Mom and grandmother never really accepted it
Its hard to find anyone that doesn't say 'rad trads are angry and shouldn't judge', and none of them see the irony in that.
I wonder if you've ever sat for a moment and contrmplated the terrible injustice they suffered and continue to suffer by the theft of the Faith that was perpetrated against them.
I never hear one word of understanding or reparative attitude from those who can't bring themselves to say something about the Latin Mass without first offering some condescending comment about 'trads'.
"Unity In Government"
The Church has but one ruler and one governor, the invisible one, Christ, whom the eternal
Father hath made head over all the Church, which is his body; the visible one, the Pope, who, as legitimate successor of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, fills the Apostolic chair.
It is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers that this visible head is necessary to establish and preserve unity in the Church. This St. Jerome clearly perceived and as clearly expressed when, in his work against Jovinian, he wrote: One is elected that, by the appointment of a head, all occasion of schism may be removed. In his letter to Pope Damasus the same holy Doctor writes: Away with envy, let the ambition of Roman grandeur cease! I speak to the successor of the fisherman, and to the disciple of the cross. Following no chief but Christ, I am united in communion with your Holiness, that is, with the chair of Peter. I know that on that rock is built the Church. Whoever will eat the lamb outside this house is profane; whoever is not in the ark of Noah shall perish in the .flood.The same doctrine was long before established by Saints Irenaeus and Cyprian. The latter, speaking of the unity of the Church observes: The Lord said to Peter, I say to thee, Peter! thou art Peter: and upon this rock I will build my Church. He builds His Church on one. And although after His Resurrection He gave equal power to all His Apostles, saying: As the Father hath sent
me, I also send you, receive ye the Holy Ghost; yet to make unity more manifest, He decided by His own authority that it should be derived from one alone, etc.Again, Optatus of Milevi says: You cannot be excused on the score of ignorance, knowing as you do that in the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was first conferred on Peter, who occupied it as head of the Apostles; in order that in that one chair the unity of the Church might be preserved
by all, and that the other Apostles might not claim each a chair for himself; so that now he who erects another in opposition to this single chair is a schismatic and a prevaricator.
Later on St. Basil wrote: Peter is made the foundation, because he says: Thou art Christ, the Son of the Living God; and hears in reply that he is a rock. But although a rock, he is not such a rock as Christ; for Christ is truly an immovable rock, but Peter, only by virtue of that rock. For Jesus bestows His dignities on others; He is a priest, and He makes priests; a rock, and He makes a rock; what belongs to Himself, He bestows on His servants.
Lastly, St. Ambrose says: Because he alone of all of them professed (Christ) he was placed
above all. Should anyone object that the Church is content with one Head and one Spouse, Jesus Christ, and requires no other, the answer is obvious. For as we deem Christ not only the author of all the Sacraments, but also their invisible minister -- He it is who baptizes, He it is who absolves, although men are appointed by Him the external ministers of the Sacraments -- so has He placed over His Church, which He governs by His invisible Spirit, a man to be His vicar and the minister of His power. A visible Church requires a visible head; therefore the Saviour appointed Peter head and pastor of all the faithful, when He committed to his care the feeding of all His sheep, in such ample terms that He willed the very same power of ruling and governing the entire Church to descend to Peter's successors. __ Council of Trent Catechism.
I believe that it's not only about the validity of whichever Mass, but about it's worthiness (hope this is the right word to choose in what i'm trying to convey). The NO is not worthy, it's a watered down version of the proper Mass we've worshipped our God with for ages. It's not for us to enjoy, it's to properly worship God, and offer Him tue sacrifice of His Son. And NO CAN be "dangerous" in terms that it subtly changes the focus from sacrifice to feast, which in time either erodes the faith in some people, or prevents them from worshipping God in the fullest most beautiful way. I know there will always be people who say "it didnt erode MY faith at all", and I love the fact that it didnt do it for you. But we still have been robbed of the proper most worthy Mass, with the introduction and dominance of the NO. It may not have changed you or your family in your opinion, but it has at least changed the Catholic community around you.
And to address the opinion in the video that both should exist next to eachother... in the ideal scenario, i believe NO should be scrapped. There was no reason to introduce it in the first place
Criticism of the reverent celebration of the Novos Ordo Mass is silly, but there are many bad actions put upon the Novos Ordo, that were not part of the Novos Ordo
It seems like the novus ordo has become the greatest example of “get an inch, take a mile”. Masses have become so sloppy and irreverent