Our Theories For Final Fantasy VII Remake’s Ending And Future - The Deepest Dive
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 20 авг 2024
- MinnMax's Ben Hanson, Grant, and Ronnie are joined by Game Informer's Joe Juba for a special bonus discussion on Final Fantasy VII Remake. In this discussion fueled by comments left on Patreon, we weigh all of the different theories about Square-Enix's bold ending for the remake and talk about the full original game. We try to predict what Sephiroth is up to, how much Aerith knows, and how the sequel will tackle Cait Sith. To unlock the podcast version of this discussion or submit your own comments for us to read, please consider supporting MinnMax on Patreon! / minnmax
Buy MinnMax merch here - minnmax.com/merch
Follow us on Twitter - / minnmaxshow
Go behind the scenes on Instagram - / minnmaxshow
Follow us on Twitch - / minnmaxshow
Please support us on Patreon - / minnmax
Thanks to the following Patreon supporters for their generous support of MinnMax at the $50 tier! Get your name on the list right here - / minnmax
Captainstubs1
Iam8bit
Jawarhello
Rob Hudak
Zachary Pligge
BeatenDownBrian
TheSmak
Mark Seliga
Andrew Vala
Mirko Arico-Torreno
Jesse Vitelli
Yarrow
Michael Jacques
Adam Walker
Ludwig Roque
Andrew Sanford
Matthew Paxton
James Smith
David Lacolucci
To unlock the podcast version of this discussion and to help support The Deepest Dive format moving into the future, please consider supporting MinnMax on Patreon! www.patreon.com/minnmax
Hope everyone reads this, please bear with it - it's long and I promise you it will be insightful the least on what the game is about.
Why is nobody looking at Jenova being the center of all this - the source of everything. Everything in the remake will make sense one you look at this from that perspective.The remake is about what happened after Advent Children and they embedded it brilliantly into the OG main story.
A. Harbinger is Jenova who in the future has corrupted the lifestream so much that she gained control over it. That's why Kadaj and the gang was there in the final battle because their loyalty is with their "Mother"
B. The whispers is the corrupted lifestream that Jenova is controlling from the lifestream and since the lifestream doesn't have the concept of time, she can used it to act in the past, present, and future all at the same time. And because she is in the lifestream, she continue to accumulate knowledge of the surface world at all time - that's how she guards plot changes. She want to preserve the future where she attained this outcome. When Sephiroth said "the planet is slowly dying" it was because the lifestream is getting corrupted.
C. Aerith can no longer watch what's happening in the lifestream and since she doesn't have the ability to oppose Jenova, she resurfaced in her OG body to influence events to create a future without Jenova.
D. Sephiroth's power came from Jenova and that is why he can manipulate the whispers but he is also threatened with that future cause it will make his existence irrelevant. Unfortunately he can't oppose Jenova directly so he needs Cloud. Sephiroth want to make sure Aerith is not in the lifestream by the time the meteor hit Gaia so he can gained the power he failed to achieve in the OG. He needs that power now to stay on top of Jenova. In order to do this..
1. He needs Cloud to defeat Jenova in the lifestream so no one will prevent plot changes. That is why in the end of the game, he opened a portal to the lifestream to lead the party there. Sephiroth doesn't have the ability to create a rift, he and Aerith only have the ability to travel in and out the lifestream - and that's what he did, open that gateway. After defeating Jenova the Harbinger, he knows it didn't really totally stop Jenova completely and future is still bound to repeat that way so he still needs to continue with his next step in attaining this god like existence.
2. Prevent Jenova from killing Aerith in the Forgotten City. Yes, it wasn't Sephiroth who killed Aerith, it was Jenova in a clone appearing like Sephiroth. Jenova Sephiroth wasn't talkative as the real Sephiroth or that she left the party with Jenova Part (e.g. Jenova Dreamweaver) to fight because it wasn't the real Sephiroth while the real Sephiroth likes to fight as himself. If it was the real Sephiroth who killed Aerith, then he didn't need to resurfaced all the way back to the beginning of the game. Unfortunately he can't oppose Jenova directly so he needs Cloud. That is why ever since Chapter 1, Sephiroth was already taunting Cloud about Aerith's fate, to really strengthen Cloud's resolve of not letting anyone die especially Aerith. Sephiroth even manipulated event's so Cloud could witness first hand a friend getting stab. Oh by the way, it was Sephiroth who placed the president hanging outside and it was Jenova Sephiroth who kill the president just like in the OG.
E. Aerith in the lifestream loves Cloud's memory of her so that is why she didn't create her own remnants - she wants to preserve it. So when she resurfaced, she can't tell the party of the truth and she tries to remain as she was in the OG to preserve that relationship with Cloud so when she eventually returns back to the lifestream, she will still have that memories to treasure - that's what she meant when she was thanking Cloud in Chapter 14's resolve scene. That is also why she can only tell Red XIII about the truth because he understand the lifestream better than anyone in the party and he can craft this believable story about destiny and the whispers that will not shock the party - Aerith is not good at lying, only hiding things. Eventually this will be further revealed later with they meet up with Bugenhagen and the ultimate reveal when she finally need to go back to the lifestream to stop the meteor which will not happen in the Forgotten City.
F. The final battle in the game all happened inside the lifestream. Normally people who dies and enters the lifestream losses their consciousness and so when they resurfaced as a new born, they don't have memory of their past. That is why Aerith warns the party before entering the lifestream that if they proceed, they will change - because she needs to use her ability so the party will retain consciousness inside the lifestream and will be protected from its corruption. And that is why when they defeated Jenova in the lifestream, all of the corrupted part (whispers) were cleansed and made its way in to the lifestream. At this point of the game - everything is how it was in the OG.
G. Biggs didn't die in the plate same as the OG although he did die before the meteor hits Gaia but there is no real evidence he died in the plate - we only assumed they all died during that time. If Biggs died in the OG, the whispers would have come after him as they did with Wedge but they didn't - because it wasn't a plot change.
That is basically what the remake arc is and although the conclusion of this arc will be in the later part, the next part will be of different arc taken from another compilation and I strongly believe it will be from Before Crisis or/and Crisis Core - it will be about the Turks vs Avalanche or the Wutai War or even Rufus past relationship with the Avalanche. The biggest indicators here are:
1. Before the whispers were defeated, they were large concentrated in Shinra Building. This means Shinra is about to do something they didn't do in the OG game.
2. Zack being introduced earlier. Zack will have a role in a flashback, maybe playable to replace the one with Sephiroth because he don't needs demonstration anymore.
Lastly, Biggs being shown alive this time would probably because he will take a role in the next part similar to Dyne (or even replaces Dyne) who will be going after Barret blaming him for what happened to Jessie and Wedge. Or he will join the Avalanche HQ who originally he doesn't like just to come after Shinra for real because of what happened to his friends. He will end up in the cross fire between the party, Shinra, and the Avalanche.
With Jenova in the lifestream - there is no room for multiverses or multi-timeline or even destiny and fate. In the lifestream, there is only one consciousness for every being so they can't be in any 2 places at any given time.
Why this game is so FANTASTIC？ 😎GAME OF THE YEAR
Maximilian Dood is probably one of the best people to get into a conversation with anything ff7. He has a true passion for it.
they already referenced the Easy Allies podcast in the video, which he was in, so they should already know
Might want to look into Sleepezi's videos as well. A ff7 discussion between him and Max would be awesome to see.
I mean, i love max, but none of the theories he told the allies were his own
Just wanna say I love this deep dive series, keep em coming
1:13:54 "Well, when you put it like that...." I DIED
This deepest dive series is my first exposure to MinnMax, and y'all got a new fan! Super fun, funny and insightful. Cheers!
Oh wow, thanks so much! Glad you found us!
Me too
have been absolutely loving this deepest dive and I've been loving the input and chemistry from Grant and Ronnie, though i'm genuinely unsure as to how Ronnie has had a different camera for each installment of this deepest dive
As a new fan to the game and the franchise, I loved the ending.
Same man. Shit had me deep diving into the lore and replaying on hard to see all the hints
@@nomorepartiezz same this is one of the very few ps4 generation games I would never have a problem going back and playing anytime.
Same, I was confused but so intrigued and I still am
I love that you brought in Juba for this episode! I’ve had so much fun with this guys thank you all!
I can watch Joe on Replay, deepest dive, GI show, and New gameplay today in one week and I wouldn't get sick of this. something about his attitude makes you smile all the way through a 2 hour and a half discussion
Just played through the remake after finishing the original FF7 earlier this year. So fascinated by the idea of multiple Sephiroths. I'm really open for them to just go off the rails in the next installment and I hope we see something crazy. The original will always be there and I'd love to see something new.
Never comment on RUclips videos, but wanted to say that listening to this entire series has made me enjoy my playthrough of FF7 even more than I'd anticipated and helped make lockdown that much more bearable. Great to have Joe on board for this one too. Thanks guys. Loved every second and can't wait to continue this unknown journey together.
That's so sweet, thanks for the comment!
So here are my 3 bold Roche predictions:
1: Roche died in the Sector 7 collapse as he was on the highway to the upper plate there when we first saw him. Offscreen dead is of course kind of meh but Jessie's parents also died offscreen so.
2: According to newest translations of the Ultimania it says that only soldiers of the G-Type degredate not the S-Types, which are Sephiroth, Cloud and Zack. If Roche is a G-Type I can see them making him go full Genesis as he is already doing some bike poetry.
3: The timelines converge and instead of being a bike enthusiast Roche is all about that snowboarding...
P.S. shoutout to Grant, FF8's also my favourite in the series then FF7 then FF7R
P.P.S just noticed that they need to come up with differnt titles than FF7 Reunion or something like that as all their abbreviations would be FF7R
Roche! Roche!
It seems like Aerith is going through an internal arc throughout the game, debating between obeying what the planet is telling her (maintaining the current future) and forging her own path. She keeps "instinctively" saying things or NOT saying things to keep things as they are, but when she stops and thinks she sometimes acts otherwise, though I haven't pinpointed an exact pattern. Between seeing Wedge save a lot of Sector 7 people and Tifa connecting with her and giving her encouragement, by the time she sees the vision of Zack at the end (the camera pans specifically from her), she makes her final decision, betting on a better future for everyone, despite the risks of Sephiroth actually winning this time.
Also I think it's all still one world, one timeline, that was changed. The Zack scene happened before the events of the game, and there's no evidence the Stamp in the Party's world at the end wasn't also changed, so basically they could have "created a new past" for themselves. If you're like "Who has the Buster Sword?", well, there's this thing called "Time Traveler's Immunity" (although in this case it's more like Alternate Dimension Immunity or whatever) which has pretty standard for how SE handles time in their games because it's simple. There could be 2 Buster Swords now, although if they are smart they'd be better off not trying to add in a 2nd Cloud/etc. and making it TOO complicated. More Chrono Trigger than Chrono Cross please. The story is complicated enough and it could ruin the more personal story moments (character deaths, Cloud's identity crisis, the Meteor threat) if they focus too much on extreme sci-fi/fantasy weirdness.
2:08:34 A bet between Joe and Ben was spotted! I knew my 3rd re-watch of this Deepest Dive would be valuable to someone else but me!
Ha, oh yes. We're tracking it.
This discussion was the glorious follow up to the old Game Club I didn't know I needed. I loved having Joe on the show and I had such a great time laughing along to the banter between everyone.
Side note, please have Joe back at any available opportunity. He is a delight.
@48:50 I totally agree with this opinion. Even if we know the story of the original, just to see how the recreate the OG and what do they add or change is enough excitement. 90% of FF7R is a testament to this, we all knew what was coming and it still felt fresh and exciting.
I do not share the idea that they had to go so off the rails with reviving death characters and introducing multiple timelines for this remake to feel new. I feel that there is a sweet spot that is in between doing a 1 to 1 and adding multiple timelines to a story that was already complex enough.
Little Roche theory! On chapter 8 after you meet "number 2" one of the kids, if you talk to him says "my dad told me that man used to be a SOLDIER". What if later down the line we see Roche as a sephiroth clone? It would be a nice way to align president shinra's words and that little exposition that the clones used to be soldiers
Facu Fritzler gets the points accross AND kills off Roche. Two bird one stone. I like it
I love MinnMax. Y'all rock. Glad to see Joe Juba join the group!
Now angy at Hanson doggo shaming. This will not stand.
Did anybody ever consider that Stamp we saw in the Zack scene was the Stamp Barret was talking about before it got "co-opted" by Shinra? That that scene and that image may depict the past?
That could be, but the creators in the Ultimania interview imply strongly that it's a different Stamp.
@@minnmax we also see the same crisps packet at Jessie's parents house and they have the stamp we know on them.
Loved this. Joe brought up that it seemed like Tifa got the gf focus but I didnt really take it that way personally. Seemed like the game did a good job of giving both a lot of moments.
Aerith :
1. Talking to the flowers scene and saying the day was special but not why.
2. The playground with aerith sitting closer and cloud offering to take her all the way back. Saying the same word at the same time.
3. The special scene where aerith says you cant fall in love with me and cloud says " do I get a choice in this?" ..
Tifa has an equal amount of things too. I think they did a good job with the love triangle just voice work makes it feel a bit different. One aspect that does seem different is Aerith seems to know about her future so she seems reluctant a bit more.
To hell with Aerith… Tifa, baby!
: ) Sorry, just having fun.
Aerith dying is an essential part that can't NOT happen but to recreate the effects of it they can't JUST do it. Which is the exact reason that we dispelled FATE. It's probably not even gonna happen at the same place and time. BUT IT SHOULD HAPPEN. why is Zack alive? Because HIM losing Aerith would be as devastating as when the players lost her in 1997.
My theory is that the party left the Singularity into the *changed* universe. That way we have the consequeces of what they showed in the ending.
the only thing i can't reconcile is - how will they smooth it out? Will the Cloud that Zack carried die in the new timeline?
It's crazy to show us a completely unrelated "fanfic" without it being the consequences of what happened. what happened being - The party defeating Sephiroth and Fate.
I just watched this video and since I'm a sucker for romance I IMMEDIATELY thought that That Cloud could make it with Tifa even almost at the get-go - that could smooth it out as you say. That Cloud wouldn't get the Buster Sword or be as fucked-up and maybe they'd just stay behind to look after Marlene. Seems I'm writing many comments on this now, must be escapism.
The more I listen to Joe, the more he sounds salty about he didn't get the FFVII he wanted... just saying.
Joe is one of the Whispers.
There will always be some people like this... and that's totally fine. I think I like the idea that Square is going with for the simple idea that it will still mostly be a remake but with added story that they can "get away with" since this is some type of potential timeline alteration. It keeps it fresh while still hitting most of the same beats that allowed fans to fall in love with it 20+ years ago.
I admit I was adamant about it also being a 1:1 remake at one time from a story perspective. And with some stuff that happened though minor... I would still argue it was not needed. Hopefully, Square don't botch this up by either going full crazy on us or by taking 30 years to tell this story.
That said... I do admit that I feel he is the least satisfied with the remake which is totally fine... but it eventually just becomes a downer in this 2+ hour video.
Omg u r so right he's so annoying thinking he knows everything smh 🤦🤦
1:51:05 now that you mentioned the forest before the ancient city: true. When she lurks for cloud in FF7R it's the same Pose when in OG she comes forth behind the tree talking Titel cloud in the forest
Great episode, Hat here, thanks for answering my question! Just wanted to respond to my question, in regards to Biggs and Jessie being alive as a part of Zack’s timeline. I don’t necessarily buy into the framework that Biggs and Jessie being alive at the end, was a result of fate being broken, and therefore, destiny did not cause them to die. This idea seems really messy to me from a narrative stand-point, because, what are the narrative rules for what events are undone, and what events are not undone? Why would this change be restricted, only to everyone who died, but not influence every other choice? The whispers were completely neutral in their actions. They caused Aerith to meet Cloud at the beginning of the game, they also stopped Avalanche from preventing Rude from dropping the plate, and then they later brought Barret back to life, but they let Shinra die. Certainly these events would also be impacted, if fate being broken entirely impacted the past? To me, fate is broken going forward, but the repercussions of your prior decisions are still in play. The whispers may not enforce Biggs' death, but he was in a 500 foot tower, injured, with an entire plate that dropped on him. Either his wounds, the fall, or the impact of the plate would have killed him.
The Zack stuff, to me, was showing there are indeed multiple timelines. Hence, Sephiroth is from another timeline, Zack living is from another timeline, the original game is another timeline, Biggs and Jessie living are another timeline. But, from a narrative stand-point, I just see it being too messy, to try and figure out, why certain decisions were undone, and others were not, if this was all simply one timeline. HOWEVER, this is Square-Enix, so logic doesn't always hold-out.
- Hat
Nothing was undone though lol, Jessie isn’t alive. Wedge is dead. Biggs we never actually seen die we just see him pass out on the pillar so he probably ended up making it out. If that’s not the case then what we seen at the end is just a different reality or timeline indicating that destiny had changed in not only this timeline but past and future timelines as well, which is the whole reason why we got the Zack scene, to let us know that the defying fate stuff proceeds just the current remake timeline we’ve been in the whole time
@@monojuice That is what I said.
Phoenix Edge no you said things were being undone. Nothing has been undone, those are just different realities. You also said biggs, wedge and jessie are alive. For what we know in the current timeline they are all dead said for possibly Biggs
@@monojuice I respectfully disagreed with MinnMax's response to my question, as a fan, because if things were simply undone, it was too messy from a narrative stand-point, and then I explained why I felt that was messy... Which included, re-phrasing their points of view... and further explaining why it was messy. Not wanting to argue, you just seemed to be trying to disagree with me, and your conclusion, was my exact point... So we are in agreement... I think if you listen to the podcast, for my question that would make sense also...
Phoenix Edge I think I remember hearing your question. It’s probably just a misunderstanding, my apologies have a good day
46:16 is exactly how I feel. I wanted to play a game that gave me the same feelings that the original had. I knew I couldn't do it the same way and give me the same feelings. My expectations were met!
I loved having Joe on this vid. He's such a negative Nancy, but this is the perfect mindset for fueling interesting discussion. His curmudgeonly nature helped reign in some of the more outlandish ideas presented. Really great to see GI people joining in on MinnMax content!
whoah so weird to see ronnie this clearly... i watched him through a 1.3 mp vasolined webcam for 10 hours? swear this is a different person...
Oh crap... maybe it is. I didn't ask for ID.
@@minnmax Maybe he's also a cyborg, like Chadley?
I really enjoyed going along this deepest dive with you guys. My favorite MinnMax content by far is anytime Ben, Ronnie, and Grant are together.
"sword in belly: whatd'ya think?"
-Sephiroth
“Your neighbor from the slums?” Really Joe? HIS NAME IS MARCO
I became a patreon only a couple months ago but I can't be happier with MinnMax and this deepest dive. You all are fantastic, and I hope it isn't years before we dive more into FF7. Great job! I can't wait to find out what's next for the deepest dive!
That's great to hear, Spencer. Thanks so much for the support!
1:13:47 Joe is 100% on point with this. It's fine for people to be optimistic about it, but there's something to be said for how many people aren't
I think the title Remake is a red herring. We all just presumed it was stating it was a remake of the original game but then why not Remake Part 1 since it's not the full game. I think Remake is about them fighting fate and gaining the power to remake their future how they wish. I do hope that the general story stays the same but I'm open to things happening a bit differently. Basically as long as the changes add something to the story and aren't changes for change's sake I think it could work.
Big brain twist, Aerith is the one time traveling by guiding her past self through the life stream. The whispers try to maintain the timeline and shes trying to change it for the sake of humanity in 500 years. Sephiroth is the red herring to throw the player off.
Brett Hall i like this
I think both Aerith and Sephiroth know the future somehow. Aerith's purification of Sephiroth's portal at the end is basically her pushing her destiny over his.
@@Jeorin interesting take. I feel like it will definitely be a twist or mashup of things. I hope we're all blindsided by it honestly. Lol
I thought of this too. Except Sephiroth isn’t from the future but due to him being in the livestream he was able to connect himself somewhat to the whispers and learned how time went. Using the knowledge he tries to change time multiple times. Whenever we saw a feather or a vision of Sephiroth, he was trying change time but couldn’t due to the whispers. Eventually his connect to them got so great that he could even manipulate them somewhat, like causing Jessie to get injured or the scene before that when the whisper/Sephiroth said “Dream the sweetest dreams”. Sephiroth was probably even testing how far he could go into changing time by killing Barret.
I do believe that all the knowledge that Aerith and Sephiroth have from "the future" is them 'reading' the entity of FATE. (Aerith is the only Cetra left and Sephiroth have aspects of Jenova which stole that power from the Cetra it killed) So the "timetravel" isn't a character aspect, it's a part of Gaia using it's power to survive the infection of Jenova. So the planet created a new "weapon" to keep the timeline that saves the planet intact. But Sephiroth - the main enemy - is barely affected by FATE. Which is why Aerith feels that they have to stop them from interfering and have the planet trust the party to stop Sephiroth. the big mystery is what is Sephiroths main goal? is Sephiroth protective of Cloud because he's a valuable tool or is he scheming something different from the OG? His end goal is still to usurp the planets energy to become a god, right?
FATE as an entity was defeated at the end. Sephiroth absorbed it and we beat him. that incarnation died - taking the power of FATE with him. Sephiroth is still out there because the "source" is in north crater. the clones with jenova cells can ALL be manifested as Sephiroth. That is the reason in the OG that the party thought they chased Sephiroth.
Just finished this DD for the second go around great discussions overall! Hope you guys do one for the DLC coming out soon although I know that will be hard with it being ps5 exclusive. :(
Oh wow, thanks so much for going through this for a second time! We're planning on it...
Sephiroth is trying to restore his memories so that he can fight cloud at his best.
Sephiroth's original memories will break Jenova's spell.
Zack is the key to unlocking Sephiroth's lost memories.
Cloud and all of the Jenova remnants will re union.
Meteor will be used as a weapon against Jenova instead of the planet.
I am fascinated by the idea of multiple Sephiroths but don't think that's where things are going. I think there's just the one. His physical body in "our time" might be in the mako cocoon but his mind/soul fights us at the end of Remake and is the entity messing with us.
This would also explain the Trail of Blood sequence. In Remake the cloaked figures are gathering at Shinra, not the North Crater. Jenova is breaking itself out. It takes on Sephiroth's form seemingly by reading Cloud's memories, which is canonically how it takes on forms (mimicry of memories). The Sephiroth that appeared at the tank appeared only after Cloud had a flashback. The one that appeared to Palmer was likely Marco, whose cells mimicked Cloud a while earlier after Cloud heard Sephiroth's voice from the Whispers (and, thus, remembered him).
Since Seph is busy playing with us he does not currently APPEAR to be controlling the Reunion. It will be interesting to see where that goes.
when sephiroth appears at the end right after you defeat fate or whatever, it looks like he is bound by the chains of destiny, but at that moment he breaks free. He needed you to defeat destiny so he could be freed from these chains. All the visions were him fucking with cloud, and making the characters believe that they needed to defeat destiny to save the planet from this horrible futures.
i also think that sephiroth was infecting destiny in some way because the mini fates were representative of the dudes from AC, and this could have been what was messing with Aerith.
Aerith doesn't inherently know the future, but it is known that she can communicate with the planet. In her room at Shinra, she says something to the effect of she used to know a lot more, but every time the whispers touch her, she loses something. Sephiroth is trying to alienate her from being able to communicate with the planet, by infecting the giant fate monster.
Aerith in the OG went off by herself to call on the Holy materia, i think she knew she would die when she went there, but maybe not how it would happen, and i am pretty sure the planet told her these things. If Sephiroth is jacking with her ability to talk to the planet, and make her forget parts of herself, maybe he is trying to prevent her from calling Holy.
Also when sephiroth takes cloud to the edge of creation, it's a nebula. the literal edge of creation, where stars are born. I think this sephiroth has larger plans than the OG sephiroth. He's had time to think about it, and doesn't want to stop with absorbing the life stream, he wants to become a god.
Originally, doesn't Zack die after what we saw at the end of the game? He carries Cloud to midgar and gets shot in the back, right? So the cutscene could be happening before he is killed?
I think the scene is different in Crisis Core. You're right that in the original Zack just gets gunned down on that cliff by a couple of dudes.
Yep he carries Cloud near the edge heads back to fight Shinra goes back to check on Cloud gets shot in the back and then they keep shooting and leave Cloud. It’s possible that they could still kill him right at that moment.
I think the reason they made a CG cutscene that's nearly 1:1 with the Crisis Core showdown is to imply they're going with the Crisis Core version of events. So therefore that army would be the final Shinra soldiers. I could be wrong though, but it'd make more sense considering the whole "destruction of fate" ending needed some consequential evidence, and they used Zack/Biggs for it.
Almost had a heart attack when I opened this and saw Joe Juba. Thank you!!!
That's what we're here for?
@@minnmax if you keep replying to me we're going to end up building a really positive community relationship - don't you try it!
Maybe its just me but it seems WAY more likely that Sephiroth in the FF7 timeline gained knowledge from the future via the lifestream. Not that there is an actual future Sephiroth running around. Sephiroth is using that knowledge to act differently. Its a united mindset. Sephiroth as we know him post advent children was growing in power within the lifestream and sent knowledge back in order to change the way things turned out.
Also on a later part, Sephiroth is likely in control of the whispers in the future but not during the events of FF7. Which would be a reason he cant directly influence them and needs the party to do it. But once the party enters the singularity time becomes meaningless and Sephiroth is able to manipulate the whispers thus the nod to the AC trio etc. HE makes the whispers take a more directly antagonistic stance against the party and feed them negative visions to push them to fight.
I still think it's Jenova doing what it does best which is messing around with everyone just like in the 1st game...you don't see the REAL Sephiroth till you give him the Black Materia and then you don't really see him till the final battle and at that point I still think Jenova is in control cause as Jenova says to Cloud after Aerith dies...he's just a puppet....that's cause Jenova is pulling the strings and making him to do anything he wants to cause of the cells in his body...Sephiroth is just a body inhabited by Jenova....always has been...
after hearing all the ideas i start to think thats the wisphers are not trying to maintain the old timeline but maybe to some exxtend want to keep some but also kinda trying making room for new things, that would explain some inconsistencys in their efford
Seeing how much they did from midgar only im pretty sure they can even finish off next game already arround cosmo
Spot on with the Roche prediction around 1:55:00
I think a lot of the alternate timelines stuff, including Zack, is ultimately about setting up more expanded universe books and movies and anime so they can keep selling you FFVII stuff forever.
Taylor Owens not too unlikely
Please do a FF8 deepest dive! I’ve never played it and this would give me an excuse to finally do it
Do it! It's my favorite FF. Especially in the newer versions there's an apparent x3 speed option since the original didn't really respect your time with all those summoning animations. But they were amazing at the time so it was forgivable. FF8 holds up because it approaches character progression differently, which is great in 2020 if you're craving something fresh. Also, the soundtrack is Uematsu's best imo :P
YES! Definitely my favorite out of the series, and would love to hear a discussion in this format.
Some interesting perspectives/interpretations throughout this series, but I think people seem to be completely oblivious or forgot the reason this game is even being remade, and thats because fans of the original wanted a "remake"(keep reading). So that we can re-experience the world, characters and story we fell in love with 23 years ago, even if we know it all so well, and for new players to experience that magic too. But also to re-explore and be re-immersed in the FF7 world, seeing old yet familiar places and faces brought to a greater life in a way that wasnt possible on the ps1. With what weve already seen in ep1, its rather obvious that this may not be the remake we wanted, as they are likely going to further change and/or alter the story(as they already have) and are deviating to an alt timeline/mulitverse bs approach, that will almost certainly convolute the story and might even conflict with or contradict the other canon works...kinda like Kingdom Hearts.
Given the ending, whispers, Aeriths and Sephiroths mutual knowledge of the og game, this is likely panning out as an FF7-2 or a sequel to Advent Children. Also, since theyve killed the development and buildup of Sephiroth, Jenova and their connection to Cloud, and just completely threw the main element of FF7 in the trash, the plot twist...their direction is obviously not in favor of the players, the ones who made this "remake" possible after 15 years. We wanted a remake of the game, not the story... I feel sorry those who's first exposure to FF7 was through this, please play the original.
the ultimania confirmed so much max was talking about, so its not like his theroes are too insane to be true
After listening to the original FFVII GI Gameclub three times, I missed Joe’s idiosyncratic hot takes in this one.
Best podcast going always helps me get thou the weeks cheers guys keep doing what you are doing 👍🎮
Thanks so much, Dom!
I ask this so often and I will continue to do so... why are people so harsh on Advent Children? I honestly love it as much as the original game and find so much of it to be further character development (despite annoying antagonists). The feelings some have on "emo Cloud" make little to no sense because he defeated Sephiroth but then was left with the emotions of guilt of letting someone die who he cared for. Whether it be love or not, Aerith is a big part of the core group in the game and his feelings of guilt make absolute sense.
Advent Children is about acceptance and moving on. For that, I will always love it.
We back? Okay im here for this😀
Loved the zoom in on Joe at the end.
Ha, you're the first to comment on that. Thanks for watching so closely!
The Biggs living situation is in the normal timeline. It's in the chapter select that Biggs didn't die and Jessie did die.
Great point! I just read that as Jessie literally died on the tower, Biggs wasn't dead, he just passed out when Cloud left him. But the fall, the explosion, or the impact of the plate should have killed him, later. At the end of the game, they introduce multiple timelines, with the concept of a bad ending, a Sephiroth from the future, a Zack living timeline, and I suspect, Biggs living is a result of that timeline as well. The text there, is probably just a carrot for fans to discuss, a play on words, like the word "remake", but I suspect they are just saying... "Don't worry fans, you liked the Avalanche characters, they aren't going away! You can experience them in the Zack timeline!" Otherwise, I can't wrap my mind around how he could have possibly lived, there were about 4 different things that easily could kill him. My thoughts anyways, it might be as straightforward as you say!
I'm currently still watching while I'm typing this so if you already mentioned this my apologies. We are also dealing with Aerith from the future. I'm playing through the game for the fifth time. There are countless scenes that suggest this. Aerith giving Cloud the flower for free and saying it represents lovers reuniting is sort of a giveaway that she remembers Cloud. She charged hin in the original.
I just started my second play through, and you're totally right about this. There are so many little details that you don't notice on your first go. It really shows the depth of this game and its story. Really excited to see what they do with it next.
It's in the Black and White pages of On The Way To A Smile
Thanks to the whole cast for this! It was quite the ride!
Man the boys went nuts with the theories on this one lol
Another problem with trying to figure out exactly what will happen in the next few games is if ever enough fan theories are correct where it becomes a mainstream theory then won't the developers possibly just change it so it doesn't hit all the notes people are expecting? Im pretty sure that is exactly what happened to the Force Awakens Sequels and it really can cause narrative problems down the line for FF7R.
Ff7 remake was excellent, not wonky at all.
Glad to to have Joe knock in some sense to that failure of an ending.
Pretty awesome discution, loved every bit of it. I will be on the look for any other deepest dive of games I like.
I'd definitely watch a FFVIII deepest dive
(Have to write in as you said it, silly if you say this, too, by the end of video. I'm so into this game, still, and just found you guys, thanks!)
Oooh, ooh, about when Hanson says two Clouds would suck if timelines merged - WOULD NOT! Cos think about where a not-as-damaged Cloud would go on to be! Mr. Tifa Hardcore, huh? :) That Cloud will probably wake from his stupor with his best friend and mentor by his side - possibly even also Tifa and even at the station for some reason. There is also that Biggs connection! In any case, That Cloud would have WAY better tools for handling the situation, and maybe through having grown up through that experience, he will have a more natural relationship with a more relaxed Tifa, who doesn't have to stress about him as much. Maybe we'll just see them starting their life AS A COUPLE and won't get to play as either of them (stable boy why not!), which would suck, but since we've now merged we'll get to play as This Cloud and This Tifa soon enough, and it'll be fun to chase after them playing as Zack. It would be so aww to see Could and Tifa puppy love (heh), if typical for time-hopping stories, and of course it would tease our Cloud and Tifa's future.
That was a really cool idea (of Joe's?) that after the Sephiroth fight the crew would just drop in the other timeline. That would be a neat way of doing it. It's basically stemmed a whole new very plausible theory of where this is going for me, and I've been watching A LOT of speculation videos.
Re-watching this series after the Rebirth trailer. I really hope you guys do a Crisis Core Reunion Deepest Dive!
Absolutely loved every episode of the FF7R deepest dive! Thank you for all of your hard work.
Awesome episode! What does everyone think of DLC for the smaller story segments is the game? Getting to Kalm and the Midgar Zolom could be one DLC, etc. Then for the meatier parts of the story, Junon to Costa del Sol, maybe Gold Saucer? Is the next Part 2 of the game. This might speed up development times and also keep fans busy waiting for the next main game.
Great work, fellas. Great to see Joe too.
I just finished FF7 Remake and I'm so glad to see you guys made a deepest dive for it. With Joe Juba, no less!
I'm a big fan of calling it a requal. It's a remake *and* a sequal.
Yay I finished the entire Deepest Dive (weeks after finishing the game myself)! Firstly, I really enjoyed the talks, I laughed out loud and grinned widely at several exchanges and jokes throughout.
Secondly, I'm very glad to see people who ACTUALLY GET how spoilers work and how adjacent subtext can immediately inject unwanted expectations. Thanks for calling that final SquareEnix trailer "unbelievable" because I don't understand how anyone, fan or writer, could approve of that ruinous choice of marketing.
Finally, shoutouts to the FF8 boys in the house! Slickest visuals for the time, best original soundtrack, and super fun broken system! (FF7 is still top 3 though....best world!).
Heads up: Cait Sith name has only been verbally said ONCE. In Dirge of Cerberus Cid only calls him Cait (pronounced Kate.) Even in canon they avoid proper pronunciation. Which is interesting because they kept to Mako being pronounced "Mah-Ko" as it was said in Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus.
8:42 considering how meny people finished the game and where still like wait what? i think you could literally type out a full paragraph on what happens at the end of the first part and it still wouldnt be a massive spoiler as there is still so much we dont know.
Hanson, just so you know, "Super Deformed" is the English for "Chibi," which is the style that the original FFVII used for characters in the overworld and outside of battle.
During the fight sepiroth starts the countdown to meteor, which starts at 8. The 7 seconds is the remaining time before meteor. As far as what that means, I have no idea.
4:04 i think the main problem that everyone is running face first into is they are trying to decide what this game is when we have only see 1 third of it, that said personally i think it is both a retelling of the first FF7 game and a Sequel to it and all the other stuff in the FF7 setting, its 3 different timelines that can't all happen happening at the same time.
Roche! Roche! ROCHE!
We'll see Roche again - he'll be playing the motorcycle game at the Gold Saucer. We'll walk into him going "Vroom! Vroom!" XD
My predictions!
1.Aerith will die then come back to life some how
2.Sephiroth will join your party at some point and you will play as him
3.Zack will also join your party at some point and you will play as him
This is what will happen if all they care about is fan service. If they really care about telling a story than some or all of these will not happen.
Before experiencing the care and quality of this remake I would of said these would 100% happen, now I am optimistic that my predictions will not happen or they will happen at a minimal and tasteful way.
Did I imagine this or is Biggs missing an arm during the epilogue? Maybe zack/cloud and the remake gang swapped universes simultaneously? So now Zack and cloud get to join avalanche with Biggs as the gun armed leader, maybe even turning a little dyne-ish, to fight the new shinra with rufus as the big dog, and now the remake gang does what they gotta do?
There's actually no reason that future installments have to have free travel. FFX had a linear scope to where you could travel using the airship. Just because you can fly, doesn't necessarily mean you can land "anywhere".
EVERYONE HAS FORGOTTEN!!
Reeve has controlled Cait Sith *while* being Reeve amongst the Shinra executives. He's not controlling it via a VR headset or a monitor.... what does this mean? It means Cait Sith via technology or Manipulation materia? Is controlling it.
It's an extension of himself!
I bet Sephiroth nor Jenova is not the main villain in Remake, but it's the Planet itself.
I bet the Planet found a way to extinguish Jenova, Sephiroth & all humans as it sees them as a threat. The best proof of this is the "bad ending" vision RED XIII sees in Remake & witnessed in the beginning of Advent Children.
My best guess is the second game will end with the Northern Crater reunion. That way you'll get the immediate impact of not having Aerith in your party (assuming she still dies) in the final hours and it allows part 2 to end with another Sephiroth encounter, which I'm guessing Square would like. From there, I think Part 3 begins with Cloud missing and the party escaping Junon as a massive opening setpiece. After that, you spend at least half of the game without Cloud before you get him back in your party.
I think ending with The City of The Acients would feel a bit awkward and anticlimactic from a narrative and gameplay perspective unless they restructured it. Of course, all my speculation is assuming they're staying pretty close to the original plot so who knows.
Ryan Bass I like your ideas for cut off points, but I also like the one about City of the Ancients being the last place for part 2. I think they could totally rework it to make it a superb final dungeon, culminating in a Jenova (but much stronger and flashier) encounter, to not have Sephiroth as the final boss again so soon after part 1.
Ff8 remaster deepest dive?? Yes please
Great Discussion!
1:05:24 Bizarro Sephiroth, AKA 'Rebirth' Sephiroth lol
Whatever perspective anyone has, in my book it's a win to have so many discussions and theories floating around. I loved this game so much.
cool, thanks for great video!
Cloud is having future visions because Jenova is. Sephiroth knows what he does for the same reasons. How Jenova knows isn't clear yet, but I doubt it's as simple as time travel.
1) 10
2) 6
3) 7
4) ...probably 7R. But we'll see how this plays out.
Watch, the sequel going to be called Final fantasy 7: Seconds
FF7 Remake Part 2
So just a little thought process on the timeline thing and the whispers. If there are multiple timelines begin with then why do the whispers exist in this game even exist in first place? I think a great majority see them as trying to correct the timeline so then if there are multiple timelines then they must be doing that in each and every single timeline that isnt the original timeline. So then could we conclude that the original FF7 is the base original timeline that the ghosts want to get every other timeline to? If so then wouldnt it be that this game was already started in a different timeline since those whispers already exist in it?? I think this is a possible reason why we have probably all knowing Sephiroth and possibly all knowing Aerith. I also like to think of them as the white and black versions from the short stories which is why they seem to be so knowledgeable. Also why we get different outcomes from the get go with people not dying like they should cause it is already a different timeline. I think zach's not possibly dying scene is also in a different timeline from this one we are playing in as why the need to show the different pup chip bag. So you have multiple timelines happening at the same time in conjecture with the original and the the whispers are possibly trying to converge them all into one timeline and this story is possibly about how one of those timelines are trying to break free from that constraint?? In doing so it is now leaking over into the other timelines like possibly zach not dying when he should have. Possibly why them showing that scene of the dome of whispers over midgar in the different timelines to let us know that the timeline we are in is definitely messing with all the others now. Not sure if they will have the two timelines completely converge yet or not( zach not dying and the one ur playing) could be cool though but I do see them hinting and showing the result of what happens over there when u do stay off the path and having that timeline then becoming the correct one true timeline. So I still think Aerith does in our game we are playing but lives in the true zach timeline. Also in true zach timeline u get the all good outcomes like him and cloud being best friends and jessie at the gold saucer etc. Its even possible still to have them kill off all characters before the end except three like they originally wanted if they do it this way as then it let's them protect this true timeline they are creating from their actions in the game we are playing. Obviously it's all just theory crafting but I do like the idea of being able to change Zach's timeline thru the actions of our timeline. Let's our story be told differently from the original story but still being close enough to follow the same beats and then still changes it at the end to be it's own thing. Never playing Zachs timeline just seeing it change thru what we do as we change fate and destiny
Oh I do hope we get to play as Zack, please! I think Aerith stuff oppositely: she dies in the one where Zack lives, that's the tragedy there. On the other hand, Cloud's not as tragic there, maybe not even an essential part of the story (tho I kinda hope he is) but stays to be a relatively normal person with Tifa, I just left a comment about that. And then Zack catches up the party at some point and will be reunited with Aerith, which will be confusing to him since he's already seen her die or heard about it. Maybe This Aerith lives, or maybe they meet before the point in the story where she... dies. Again. And Zack loses her again, as does everyone. I daresay I trust they can handle it well; it will hurt. Tho, I think they could even handle her surviving well, too, not make it too cheesy but still happy. I don't mind as long as it's not too cheesy.
@@randomizednerd ohh so you think that Zach timeline is going to merge into game timeline and that it will cause him to be confused as to what is happening. That would be cool to see him come into the game timeline and if we get to play to as him as a party member. I never thought about him merging into the game timeline. My thought was always that he was just being used to show us the player what is happening to all the timelines as we the player change history through our actions. That his scenes were just there to tell the new story that we have been creating through our actions. I always think his timeline is slowly becoming the true and final timelime and we the players will always be in another timeline creating the new history in his. So the player finally gets to fix the world and not have all the people die off planet like they did at the end of the original game. We are slowly changing and correcting the mistakes from the original game and making a whole new correct timeline. I still think with my theory that we could still play as Zach in that separate timelime even if he doesn't cross over into ours. It almost seems as if Aerith in our player timeline can sense Zach in the one true timelime that we are creating and maybe in order to finally beat Sephiroth that Aerith sends messages over to Zach in his timeline and guides him to where we use him in the final battle but not with us in our timeline but in his. Something like having to two two Sephiroths at the same time to finally get rid of him. He has to destroy the Seph in his timeline at the same time we destroy ours and then it finally removes Seph from lifestream and being able to come back. Or maybe we do someone pull him over and we get to use him in the final battle where it is finally Cloud and Zach landing the final critical blow against Sephiroth and truly ending his reign. Then he gets to go back to his timelime where everything is finally how it should be.
@@jojosan342 oh yeah I thought the timelines would merge, but that idea is also cool, different timelines working together thru Aerith but not merging. If that were the case, I'd maybe prefer Zack staying the whole time where he belongs and indeed, maybe he is the one to lead the party into the northern crater in the original timeline, um, this time :D ...I kinda think I wouldn't mind playing both plots, however long it might make the saga, if the quality is at least this and maybe a bit polished. Square Enix could just maybe take the price of each (normal version) game down a little notch. Just a little. Have you played Intermission yet?
@@randomizednerd yeah I wouldn't mind playing both plots as well I think that would be cool. Also would've mind if the timelines merge or stay apart as long as the story is good. Either is fine with me. So far I have been loving what they have been doing so for the moment I will keep the faith that they will nail whatever they are trying to do. I have not been able to play intermission yet due to not being able to get a PS5 but I have watched a whole playthru of it so I know everything that happened in it including the church scene at the end. Im excited to see where they take this story
@@jojosan342 totally agree! ...Then after the saga, we could get that one-to-one version still spread out at least over three full installments but really well and realistically made; without any time mumbo jumbo (while I also enjoy it) and expanding on the things we actually want to know, like see how Reno and Rude receive the intel that next up, probably dropping the 7 plate. And the real grit of the slums; the injustice and the problems it causes its inhabitants, that would be nice to expand on early on in the game. Maybe the crew meets a refugee from the sector 1 slums - the place that's all dark now because of the crew? Maybe the crew helps the sector 1 slum's people, some actually good side quest material there. Optional quest: restore light? And don't get me started on the jailbreak scene. Same style and that musical track... ooh, so delicious even if I roughly know how it goes. So menacing.
My theory about Zacks return and about the true final boss in the games eventual ending.
Imagine the last game in this FF7 REMAKE series is called Reunion. What is the Reunion? Its the phenomenon where all the Jenova cells meet in the same place. Who has Jenova cells? Cloud, Zack, Sephiroth and the robed men. Why is Zack alive? Because he is the only one with Jenova cells who did not come to the Northern Crater for the Reunion because he died and thus the Reunion failed.
Jenova can use time magic and somehow sent back her conciousness from the OG timeline to the new one. She found out about The Arbiters of Fate and used Sephiroth to manipulate Cloud and the party to pit them against The Arbiters of Fate. After their defeat another timeline got created (or even more) and in that timeline Zack survived his fate thanks to Cloud and party defeating The Arbiters of Fate and erradicating them from all time and space. This went according to Jenovas plan, she wanted to pull Zack out of the other timeline to the current one in the Remake to complete the Reunion, as he was the only one with her cells to not join the Reunion in the OG.
The final fight will be against JENOVA in her true completed form, maybe using her human Cetra form at first then gradually morph into her true form from when she first crashed into the Planet. Sephiroth, Cloud and Zack will be the final 3 party members you control to defeat Jenova, Jenova extracts the final cells from Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth making them all basically human and weak, which makes sense if Sephiroth is gonna be a controlable party member, so that he is not to powerful.
Why is Sephiroth against Jenova? Well think about it. Sephiroth was once a great war hero, he was brainwashed in to thinking his mother was Jenova and thats he is a freak of nature. Vincent in the OG reveals that Sephiroth was born to a beautiful woman called Lucrecia. Vincent even asked the party if he will meet Sephiroth if he joins them. This encounter happened in the end but there were no special dialouge between Sephiroth and Vincent. But the remake can correct this and maybe somehow make Vincent show Sephiroth the past and let him see Lucrecia. The fight can even end with Sephiroth sacrificing himself giving him a redemption story but not fully absolving him from all the bad he has done. The rest of the ending can go however Square wants it to go.
BTW its just a theory and nothing serious xD.
I think you hit on something with Zack being the missing link. I've been thinking in the end Jenova is going to be reborn and replace Sephiroth as the big bad - that would make keeping Zack alive (albeit in a separate timeline) could lead to that.
Holy SHIT! That was epic. That would truly be satisfying and badass. Imagine how cool it would feel controlling Cloud, Zack, and Sephiroth in battle... So what does your theory have to say about Aerith's death? Would they make it even more heart wrenching having Cloud AND Zack go through it? Or would she survive somehow? I personally LOVE this ending as it sparks such a huge discussion and sooo many fun and interesting theories. It makes me even more excited for further installments. I do not think this ending was a failure at all like Joe said if this video.
I think this is the deepdive we need. Max in the easy allies discussion went alittle too far and I'm like we are not done with the mystery of Septh and aerith and many other details, and we are already jumping to level 3 and 4 theory crafting. It causes unnecessary expectation in the community and alot of ppl listens to Max, have began crafting alternate timeline theory in reddit.
Plot Ghosts are not good story telling, having literal entities in your story that actively enforce a meta-narrative is lazy. You could have just as easily changed the story around without using such heavy-handed means, by just changing the story...
Did you watch the Easy Allies spoilercast? The ghosts are not nearly offensive if you stop thinking of them as plot enforcers, and more as echoes of a different fate.
@@Jeorin Jeorin Turning your story into a multi-dimensional narrative, governed by nigh omnipotent beings who want the story to progress along a route only important for being the one people played in the 90s is not good story telling. Talk about destroying the relatability of the drama.
@@ChristopherZubin Well, that's why they had to die :p
There is news that the continuation is not going to be too different from how the original game went so them going over the original game fully can still spoil quite a bit.
Thought it was interesting that Joe brought a lot of different opinions to this one, some of which I shared.
I loved everything up until the ending, and am not necessarily even put off by where they might want to take the story - it's just that the ending felt so very different from the rest of the game, ending on a Crash Bandicoot boss fight on the motorbike before transitioning into leaping around abstract space fighting a boss you'd never seen before, then fighting Sephiroth feeling a bit too soon for me. Reminds me of the (thankfully abandoned decision) to have Aragorn fight Sauron at the end of the Return of the King - interesting video on that here: ruclips.net/video/AVpFYDDM36I/видео.html
Also loved to see the appreciation for VIII at the end - really hoping Ben does do a deep dive on it - mostly as I'm just finishing the end of the remaster.
Requiem is a fun word
correct me if I'm wrong, Aerith dies in the process of using Holy which would have saved the world from Sephiroth/Jenova and Comet. So if she doesn't die how does the story continue?
I think Holy would work better if she weren't skewered mid-cast.
Joe's here?! I'm liking it already!