Put two Motors on one side and the other two on the other side of a quad and use Black Box to compare there punch out and top-end thrust and torque differences.
This is an obvious test that I've wondered why no one has ever done. It's not an exact measurement, but at least it's objective. Same goes for prop reviews. Almost all reviews are subjective, they're based on the reviewers feel for them. Two props/motors on one side would allow for direct, and real, comparisons in performance.
Since their inception, wider than 22XX on 5" or 6" has always felt lacking in the top end power and control to me. Even testing the Hyperlite 2307 vs 2207, I hugely preferred the 2207. This was most confusing finding to me since they're the same motor other than the width. I've discussed this dilemma extensively with Ryan Harrell of MQTB and there isn't really a clear explanation we could come up with. Comparing a 2306 vs 2207 in terms of power curve, the 2207 definitely has its power band pushed up higher in the RPM range and from Ryan's tests, they do manage higher RPM transitions better as well. With respect to acro, lower pitch props are usually prefered and it makes sense to pair them with a motor that's better in the higher RPM range. I believe the lower pitch props are preferred because they generally 'should' have better overall control and handling since they don't stall as easily. Especially in the lower RPMs. However many steep pitch props these days like the HQ5.1x5.1x3 and original Avan triblade, have design features that are very good at managing this low RPM stall issue and just feel extra awesome on a 2207. But you give up a whole lotta amps for that kinda performance. Emax is testing their 2009 prototypes and finding some interesting results... It would seem that the power band position on the throttle curve is very closely correlated with the motor width and the motor height can expand that band while the kv will attempt to draw it out or pull it in. The part I'm hung up on is that wide motors and high kv don't seem to perform as I would expect by extrapolating from other motors. We've come so far that we're now splitting hairs to fine tune the performance out of these machines. It's awesome
Pretty sure zoefpv/rctimer was selling a 2010 size motor at one point. Apparently it was quite an amp hog, which makes sense I guess, that's a huge jump in stator volume. She liked the added stator height for quicker transition between up and down thrust in 3d flying.
Buddy I gotta say your flying has come a lonnnng way since I first started watching your channel. Great review! 2207's from now on for this fella. Cheers!
Hey Joshua ...I just wanted to say thank you so much for everything you have done for us in this amazing hobby, and congratulations on becoming a new member of Rotor Riot......I think your exactly the pilot they need for future growth and continuing the drone camp function. I always have been a fan of your channel as it has been my trouble shooting guide when I couldn't get my Drone working or if it was working and had a problem..... I could always figure it out because you had a video about my problem .....every time!!!!!! ....without your channel I would have bin totally lost and most certainly would have given up, But because I could always fix my problems by listening to your videos it made it easy to find a solution......thank you again man and you never know maybe we will fly together one day!!!! cheers.
Joshua, I was having yaw-twitch problems on two quads with new motors, EMax and Brother Hobby, and found the solution in one of your own 2hr videos from a few months ago. I increased the PWM frequency in BLHeli to 48 and that did the trick. Also, before I increased the PWM freq, the motors were noisy in the Motors tab at certain speeds, but once I increased the PWM the noise cleared up.
I really like the "idea" of the wider stators over the taller stators because it gets torque from the mechanical advantage which to me seems more efficient. Sciencey! You got me hooked on RCX motors btw.
The fat motors now have more inertia in the bell housing. But wait, taller motors mean more bending on the shaft and impact damage could be worse on the bearings. Then the cooling should be better on the short wider ones since less air restriction and more surface area. But then the tall motor might be better since.... Such is the life of an engineer trying to make a decision that usually doesn't matter that much... I do that all the time deciding lunch, then after an hour everything sounds delicious. Torque does not = efficiency though. My cousin's 7.5 liter pickup has a lot of torque, and its certainly not efficient. Much like combustion engines, electric motors can vary wildly based on timing and load (and the speed of the ESC). At the end of the day, you always need to size things for what you want. The 1104 motors on my micro are great, but they wouldn't be good on a phantom, and the 2212 motors wouldn't be good on the micro, both being very inefficient. Hence their will never be a "best" motor.
You don't ever get something for free, physics just won't allow it. So yes every upside has a downside for sure. That being said, I would think generally a wider motor will give you greater mechanical advantage that outweighs the additional force required to spin the wider motor since the props are still a far greater load source than the motor itself, giving a significant boost to efficiency since a large fraction of the extra power gained is from the mechanical advantage and not just from increased power utilization from the battery as would be more true for a taller stator vs a wider stator. A taller stator will have a taller bell housing as well, increasing the mass and requiring more force to spin, so width vs height I would imagine width would at least have more potential for efficiency gains. At some point there is a crossover where the motor is too wide for its own good of course, I just don't know if we've hit that mark yet with 23mm wide stators turning 5" triblade props. But maybe there's something I'm not considering here, and as with many things the devil is in the details so numbers matter, 1mm change in width probably does not equate to 1mm change in height etc. There will never be a best motor, I agree, just a better motor for a specific application. Novel complete.
Coming from a motorsport background your findings make perfect sense to me and are what I would expect to see too. In combustion engine terms. Wide stator vs narrow stator of the same displacement could be thought of as a 'long stroke' (narrow cylinder) engine vs a 'short stroke' (wide cylinder) engine. Short stroke will be less torquey but typically rev higher (lower mechanical stresses) and have greater potential power higher up in the rpm range. With a wider stator you have more mechanical leverage which suits it well to low down torque and efficiency if you operate in this area of rpm... but if you want top end power you are better off with a wider magnetic flux ring.... akin to the wider flame front in a short stroke racing combustion engine. Although they show similar bench test static thrust figures... the 2207 will typically unload more and therefore rev higher in free flight and this is why it feels better in real life.
Good stuff Joshua Bardwell. One problem though. Volume of a cylinder is pi*r^2*h, not pi*d^2*h. It doesn't really change the comparison, but your numbers for volume are off by a factor of 4.
I totally agree with the preference of 2207s. Granted my 2306 experience was tainted with the emax 2306 2750s, but a massive difference between the two was noted by me.
i tried 2306 meny models, emax, rcx, dys... And all have one thing in common, if you want to push it it sucks the battery down when over 2400kv. 2207 2300kvish is a softspot for me, plenty of power, plenty of prop choice and flight times are incredible. Keep an eye on 2305 size, seems to be the new sweet spot with 2350kv and 2500kv.
14:42 that would make sense since they have a smaller moment, or rotating inertia since the weight of the bell is brought in closer. You could try adding a bit of weight with copper tape to the motor and see if that takes the advantage away maybe?
No... you have to then put amp draw, increased motor weight, heavier lipo etc into the whole equation... and that negates any overall advantage.... it just alters the quads overall performance parameters in a certain direction and that can be either good or bad depending on the course and/or individual flying style.
nice, always depends on the setup and weight of your kwad, i switched motors a lot from quad to quad to find out what works, i had the best results with lightweight with 2207 and light props like 5043HQ and heavy quads with 2306 with props like cyclone 5046C
Same here - I really like NK2306 2700 kV with 5046C on my race quad - tons of torque, I barely add any throttle in corners. Makes for very consistent speed and lap times.
2207 has a faster response to throttle input due to the stator width. The height of the magnets allows you to run more aggressive props without “over-propping” your motor. 2306 is going to have an easier time spinning 6” tri-blades than a 2207 or 2208 motor. It’s like a gear in a transmission. The smaller the gear, the less torque can be applied to the driveshaft. The wider the gear, the more torque can be applied. Torque is required to spin larger/more aggressive props.
Propeller and motor pairing has a drastic effect on the performance of a quad. A high KV motor with a high pitch prop is going to be extremely fast but will crush most batteries. If the KV is too high and the pitch too low, your props will flatten out under fast throttle changes (just like tires breaking loose on a car under hard acceleration). If your KV is lower and you run a more aggressive prop, you might have thrust issues in the low end of your throttle range.
Concur on everything - although going to biblade and lower advance ratio in 6" actually feels great on 2207 and 2208 motors. Way better than I expected, especially on hilariously cheap 2208 motors. I've had to toss on some seriously ludicrous 6x5.5x3 props (!) in order to feel like the motor isn't spinning them up super fast, but I still have to violently back that thing into hairpins to mind... but it's an absolute missile, especially on $7 motors.
tehllama42, Which $7 motors? Also, can you explain "advance ratio" in greater detail here? I read this; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_ratio but I'm still unable to visualize how this works on different quad props. TIA
Advance ratio is actually what people should be measuring instead of prop pitch (many do) - essentially how many inches of fluid the propeller should push you through per rotation - think of it as a final gear ratio in a car. 5x5.5x3 Hulkie props have a lot more advance ratio than 5x4x3 V1s, for example. The $7 motors are the RCX H2208 (4mm shaft) motors, sans warranty. they're only in 2000KV, but for experimenting on 5S or jumping to 6", they're great - I'm also giving them a try on 7042 Gemfan Flash props to see how they're like.
tehllama42, I got a set of those and the cobra 2208 2kkv's still haven't flown yet; 7" props sound about right for them. So, I get what advance ratio is (I think anyway), but how does it change between bi and tri-bladed props?
Glad to hear, as I have been wondering the difference between the two, and just got a set of T-Motor F60 III 2350s from getfpv, they are on sale for $19.99 each! I have heard good reviews on them, and I like the fact that they are the old style motor with a closed bottom.
Using both. My race build is sett up with 2207.6 on my Hyperlite Floss 3.0. On my source one v3 freestyle build I'm flying 2306. They both fly amazing. For awhile I had them the other way race build had the 2306 an freestyle had the 2207.
OK I have been in electronics since high school, service manager and head tech. at a TV Repair shop ,and all I could say is it looks and sounded like it took less power but more of a punch was the 2207, I also love the RCX Brand more than any other brand for a discount motor. THANKS JOSH ! Looks like I will get these 2207 for my 220mm 5in. frame. have a great week . JohnnyDRC
100% my exact findings between 2306 and 2207 on other brands as well Josh. Literally. I get longer flights with 2207 even though the amp draw is slightly higher as well and I think it’s due to the higher torque and faster speed of the quad that I don’t need to be on the throttle nearly as hard. I find on 2306 I need to be on the throttle a LOT more and my flights get very short. I love 2207 and will never buy more 2306. You literally mirrored my exact findings between the two motor sizes, even your descriptions of the two. Thanks again and great thorough testing!! - Travis
I'v used RCX motors for 5 year now and they are the best value motors in my opinion. They just came out with the LS2207 series which are even cheaper but still pack a sick punch.
Awesome! I'm just moving up from 2205 2300kv to 2207 2600kv on a budget with the dys samguk wei motors.... Glad I chose the correct size! Thank you for confirming my thoughts and choice... Cheers
Excellent video Joshua. It’s one of those things that are hard to grasp until you experience it. Then so very hard to describe to someone who hasn’t. Nicely done & welcome aboard!
RCX motors have always been good for me. They also have replacement bells, bearings, clips and shafts etc so well worth getting the spares when you order. Bearings have also been easy to replace on the one's i have which is handy too.
I prefer the 2306 2400kv motors for freestyle. I like the bottom end torque that they provide. In the end it all boils down to flying style and how you want your quad to feel. Great video JB👍
We'll thanks Joshua now I want a set of 2207.... can't afford them, but if Joshua Bardwell says they're better they're better... you're my Fpv idol bud striving to be as knowledgeable as you. .
The most important of all you mention, is how you finish you winding on the motor and is the 6 terminals, start or delta, that means you want a low kv and more torke or hi rpm or kv and less torke.
I have both of these exact motors. The 2207s rock! They just released an "economy" 2207 for 9.99. Maybe different magnets? But I dont understand why people try to steer you away from 2207 motors. They are perfect for the way I fly. They have amazing torque so they are great for quick movements. But I did notice that I dont get as much flight time with the 2207s. Great video!
I could tell that you were up higher in the video with the 2207. Just because that happened to me when I lowered my cam angle. All of the sudden the thrust I was used to giving shot me way up in the air. Kind of the same way more thrust = more height in the flight.
I've been waiting months for this video! And I already came to my own conclusion. 2207s rock! For a cheap motor these things haul ass! Two blade 5046 gemfans these things pop!!! Amazing thrust and good flight times! Thanks for the good comparison!
Totally agree with you. I had the F60 Pro II 2700kv on my quad and switched to the F40 Pro II 2400kv. With the F40s I always have the problem that I hit the ground when diving because they miss the pop I have with the F60s. On the F60s when I think I'll hit the ground and raise the throttle I'm just skyrocketing into the sky.
Joshua Bardwell Of course. What I found interesting is that the higher kv didn't affect the flight time by much. This probably would be different if I was racing, but for my style it's perfectly fine.
agreed i just went from johhny motors (2207 2700kv) to le drib motors (2206 2650) i can really feel the power difference, 2650 was the highest i could get locally as getfpv was out of stock... still like the drib motors but miss johhny's motors. i even went back to 2450kv motors that i still had and nearly cried
Fpvmodel hurricane 2207 and miniquadtestbench gave it a thumbs up. Similar price point. There is also the BBB 2207 and rcaddict love them for the power and smoothness.
ashmawikali143 sorry man, I have either of the motors. It is not an easily question to answer, both of the motors will give you the performance you need but if you are looking for more efficient motors i would recommend 2205 motors with hyper light build for not so serious racing. For freestyle I definitely go for bigger motors like yours. Between BBB and BH, BH is a bigger brand imo. However I have heard a lot of good things about BBB 2207. With BBB 2207 I think there is only one kV, which is really high for racing but great for freestyle. BH 2306 has two kV I believe. If I would choose I will go for BH 2450kv which is the right kV for racing. For freestyle higher kV. BH 2306 uses 7075 , BBB 2207 no idea and not mentioned in spec,which I suspect it could be 6061.
Engineer's answer- ANGULAR MOMENT- basically you have more "stuff" further from the center. AND the SAME tangential force is at a larger OD. The difference goes back to PI, or ~ +3 times on RADIAL difference. So just a little bit of diameter goes A LOT further than a linear iterpolation. Thank you very much
been running some cheap motors but a good motor at the same time, DYS 2207 2600kv and 2206 2700kv and I'm loving these motors and super price at $10 each
my b hobby 2207's are great. if you want to full stick it, they go. if you want to freestyle, they pop. samguk wei's are also great. just not as immediate on the stick. using higher kv 2600 or 2700 you notice the difference in torque. 2306's are also great but I havent spent the money on top end motors in this size. my preference has been the 2207's, even over 2307's. the difference in performance wasnt much but the battery usage was radical. thanks for posting.
Strange I figured you were like the 2306’s better¿ It seems like your flight was a considerable amount smoother and they had more controllable low-end power for cruising through the tight spots 🤷🏻♂️
Ordinary I’d say it was a shill move to push motors for affiliate cash but I don’t think Bardwell has sold his soul yet ... especially with his HDO review and vtx reviews
Nah, if you look at how much inertia and lag those had, it's night and day, the 2306 was wobbly, like held with chewing gum. The 2207 was so sharp in contrast. I wonder how these differ in long range type flight...
I recently purchased the f-40 pros and the f-60 pros which is a 2306 and a 2207.. I never felt the low end torque on the 2306 like you would think. The 2207 always felt more responsive and torquey but didn't have the top end speed the 2306 provided. And when flying with a go-pro I always go with a 2207-2407 so that I can't tell the go pro is on the quad. So.. top speed=2306... 2207=immediate response, torque and speed with out the top end of the 06'.
Hi Joshua, I hope now you gonna learn something ;) As a mechanical engineering student, I have to say, everybody should benefit from using a 2207, no matter what's your flight style. A motor with a smaller diameter has a lower inertia. This makes it easyer for the motor to spin up and down. Because of our superfast PID-loop the motors need to spin up and down a lot, no matter what's your style of flying. So a smaller diameter should be more efficient. A smaller rotor comes with lower torque, so they extend the rotor to create more torque. In theory, the curve is linear between the length of the rotor and the ammount of torque produced. Extending the rotor does lead to a rise of weight but doesn't lead to a huge rise in inertia because the weight is closer to the center of rotation. To prove this, look at what motors the industry is using for an application where they need to spin up and down realy fast: all these motors are just like ours BLDC-motors but with a small diameter and a long rotor. Thanks for the great videos !
I thought I had a really clever idea, but I was backwards! I did the same math as you, but I also subtracted out the volume of the bearing to get closer to the volume of the actual windings. Surely the volume gap between the 2306 and 2207 would appear even bigger then, right?! Nope. This is where I was backwards. Instead of your 7% difference, I came up with a 5% difference.
@Joshua Bardwell I would describe your quads as "stiff but dampened". This is just my best guess from watching your videos for a couple years. In other words, your tuning seems to be very active to hold attitude, but then dampened to eliminate all P oscillation. Most other quads seem to have a tiny bit more oscillation and prop wash. You hate prop wash with a passion, but you deal with it when there is just no way to get rid of it.
Yes I tried the emax 2306s and they were beastly at every level. But I have settled on the emax ls 2207 2400kv and love them. Thanks for the videos JB! Anxiously waiting for the rapidfire module review!
I had the 2306 2750Kv, they were fun, but they sagged a 80C graphene like it was a AA, thus, ended up being pretty poor performing motors past 30 seconds.
The 2400 are much softer on your batteries but still have that demonic transition time. There is something about those motors. They literally have power everywhere. I fondly remember when I first put cyclone 5050 props on them and the motors still spun them up like they were nothing. I have since moved on but every now and then I break out my Bush Kwad and rip around on those Emax 2306 2400s
Great video! I have to agree with your explanation :) the 2207s have natural expo throttle curve in my opinion. An interesting test would be to adjust the throttle curve on the 2306 to match the quality of the 2207
Hi Joshua, great job done I'd say. Do you plan to make such video also for motors for 7" quads? I mean for free style or long range kind of copters. Or in this case it does not matter so much? Currently I am using in my 7" LR quads 2408 motors (Hyperlite actually). but there could be also some other motor size options, what do you think? ;)
I could hear from the noise You were riding your throttle more on the 2206. A little rev up on the 2207 threw you over the trees while it was a climb on the 2206. I agree with your assessment. Love the 2207s. I also love the low throttle power of the 2207. So question. Is this equation correct . “ if JB likes = I likes then I am #NerdLikeJB”
it depends which brand you try and how they make it...I like the Brother Hobby 2306 R5...the 2306 have a bit more torque in the low end which feels better for freestyle IMO...hence most of the freestyle motors being this size...hypetrains, steele, more popular T motor F40 Pro 2...etc...but some do prefer 2207 high kv...
"and we promise just a good of a work out as the 8 minute folk" "how" " uhhhh... if, if your not happy with your work out we will send you the extra minute free, yea thats it"
Josh is that frame you were testing with a unibody? Reason I ask is I have had MTO problems with my CMW Speed Addict V2 for some time now. Never really completely went away. I don't experience that on my Hyperlite Evo with separate arms. I suppose it also comes down to the carbon type, the frame and motor combo but thought perhaps unibody designs might actually be more susceptible to vibration issues. I can actually hear my motor resonate with the frame with props off at a certain throttle value. I don't see it in my flight camera, only on the HD footage.
Interesting, thanks for letting me know. Thanks for doing this kind of video, I really appreciate the part where you worked out the volume of material in the stators. I have not seen anyone do that. Then you backed it up with some sick flying!
2207 ftw. I hear the difference verry clear in the videos. I hear from myles far when a 2207 is in the air. I have some 2308's 2700kv,s here and these also give that same feeling as the 2306. Some smooth linear/lame feeling, powerfull af but still they dont give that poppy agressive feeling like a 2207.
Great video. I switched exclusively to 2306 engines. Find these much easier to tune. I also like the sound and torque of the engines. With 2207 I had too much rattling on the engines. But I have to say that they have always had more KV than now with the 2306th I am the opinion that 2306 with 2500kv better and more precise fly as 2207 with 2700 kv. I fly now only Emax and T-Motor engines and have only had good experiences. I think your test is great, but also on your flight videos, I think that the 2306 engines run better.
This is why I fly 2307, I get all the linear feel of a 23XX with the aggressiveness of the 2207, they also only weigh 30gr. I also have 2506's, those run cool and slick as ice, but my 2307's still have more rip- I mean seriously, they are scary fast, max amp draw I've seen so far is 90A so not terrible.
I bought a set of 1407 RCX motors with out warranty from Myrcmart and 3 of them came with bad bearings. RCX told me they couldn't do anything since I didn't choose the warranty, but I was under the impression that they would send me working motors. Maybe I just had bad luck with this purchase, but I am afraid to order motors though them again.
The RCX LS2207 in no-warranty trim has been fantastic for me - unless the durability is junk (so far 9 packs on one quad), then I've found my new motor for everything. In 2400KV (4S) and 1700KV (6S), I don't know what more to ask for out of lighter quads. The fact that I can slap together builds with mostly decent parts at
I was about the pull the trigger on those, but it's really hard to ignore a cheaper motor that seems to be slightly better at delivering peak power and efficiency. I've been really thrilled with mine, and if I decide to experiment with 6S, the 1700KV LS2207's are the clear winner for prices I'm willing to pay.
That's exactly it - 5 (or 9, or 13) means I have a spare to instantly toss on, and since I have magical luck destroying bells with rocks, waiting for an affordable replacement part. I like having pairs of quads, so ordering 9 works well.
7:38 ermergerd you missed it. I live on a similar property with butt-tonnes of room to fly (it's all dirt here, no grass like yours) and there is 1 solitary power line that cuts our property in half & then runs to the house. I can miss, like you, the power line that goes from transformer to the house, but the HV power line (15m in the air) is what I hit at least once per 10 packs & when I do it sounds like a whip cracking. No sparks or fried circuits yet ... wood, wood, dammit, where's wood when you need it >.
Put two Motors on one side and the other two on the other side of a quad and use Black Box to compare there punch out and top-end thrust and torque differences.
that's really interesting actually
This is an obvious test that I've wondered why no one has ever done. It's not an exact measurement, but at least it's objective. Same goes for prop reviews. Almost all reviews are subjective, they're based on the reviewers feel for them. Two props/motors on one side would allow for direct, and real, comparisons in performance.
then.....why didn't you do it yourself?
Oh yea I was playing with this idea for some time...but with front and rear motors...front with less KV and back with higher
I think it would spin out in a hard punch if they were too different. I could be wrong. Do it.
U like the 2207 but i thought your flight with the 2306 was so smooth . Yew 👊
Since their inception, wider than 22XX on 5" or 6" has always felt lacking in the top end power and control to me. Even testing the Hyperlite 2307 vs 2207, I hugely preferred the 2207. This was most confusing finding to me since they're the same motor other than the width. I've discussed this dilemma extensively with Ryan Harrell of MQTB and there isn't really a clear explanation we could come up with. Comparing a 2306 vs 2207 in terms of power curve, the 2207 definitely has its power band pushed up higher in the RPM range and from Ryan's tests, they do manage higher RPM transitions better as well. With respect to acro, lower pitch props are usually prefered and it makes sense to pair them with a motor that's better in the higher RPM range. I believe the lower pitch props are preferred because they generally 'should' have better overall control and handling since they don't stall as easily. Especially in the lower RPMs. However many steep pitch props these days like the HQ5.1x5.1x3 and original Avan triblade, have design features that are very good at managing this low RPM stall issue and just feel extra awesome on a 2207. But you give up a whole lotta amps for that kinda performance. Emax is testing their 2009 prototypes and finding some interesting results... It would seem that the power band position on the throttle curve is very closely correlated with the motor width and the motor height can expand that band while the kv will attempt to draw it out or pull it in. The part I'm hung up on is that wide motors and high kv don't seem to perform as I would expect by extrapolating from other motors. We've come so far that we're now splitting hairs to fine tune the performance out of these machines. It's awesome
Pretty sure zoefpv/rctimer was selling a 2010 size motor at one point. Apparently it was quite an amp hog, which makes sense I guess, that's a huge jump in stator volume. She liked the added stator height for quicker transition between up and down thrust in 3d flying.
DossKat yeah. That seems to be what emax is noting too.
Kabab FPV 2209? Just remembered the old SunnySky 2212 you used in your 7 inch quad. 😊
@@MCsCreations Just watched that vid. Gonna build one and blast some old sunnyskys on 4s. Balls.
@@angelofaraday5280 What KV are you going to use? I think about making one too with the 2400kv! 😃
Anyway, if you can, tell me the results later! 😃
Buddy I gotta say your flying has come a lonnnng way since I first started watching your channel. Great review! 2207's from now on for this fella. Cheers!
Rob Blackwood #NerdThatFlys.
Hey Joshua ...I just wanted to say thank you so much for everything you have done for us in this amazing hobby, and congratulations on becoming a new member of Rotor Riot......I think your exactly the pilot they need for future growth and continuing the drone camp function. I always have been a fan of your channel as it has been my trouble shooting guide when I couldn't get my Drone working or if it was working and had a problem..... I could always figure it out because you had a video about my problem .....every time!!!!!! ....without your channel I would have bin totally lost and most certainly would have given up, But because I could always fix my problems by listening to your videos it made it easy to find a solution......thank you again man and you never know maybe we will fly together one day!!!! cheers.
Interesting to back and look at this and reading the comments after Chris Rosser entered the scene :)
Joshua, I was having yaw-twitch problems on two quads with new motors, EMax and Brother Hobby, and found the solution in one of your own 2hr videos from a few months ago. I increased the PWM frequency in BLHeli to 48 and that did the trick. Also, before I increased the PWM freq, the motors were noisy in the Motors tab at certain speeds, but once I increased the PWM the noise cleared up.
I really like the "idea" of the wider stators over the taller stators because it gets torque from the mechanical advantage which to me seems more efficient. Sciencey! You got me hooked on RCX motors btw.
The fat motors now have more inertia in the bell housing. But wait, taller motors mean more bending on the shaft and impact damage could be worse on the bearings. Then the cooling should be better on the short wider ones since less air restriction and more surface area. But then the tall motor might be better since.... Such is the life of an engineer trying to make a decision that usually doesn't matter that much... I do that all the time deciding lunch, then after an hour everything sounds delicious.
Torque does not = efficiency though. My cousin's 7.5 liter pickup has a lot of torque, and its certainly not efficient. Much like combustion engines, electric motors can vary wildly based on timing and load (and the speed of the ESC). At the end of the day, you always need to size things for what you want. The 1104 motors on my micro are great, but they wouldn't be good on a phantom, and the 2212 motors wouldn't be good on the micro, both being very inefficient. Hence their will never be a "best" motor.
You don't ever get something for free, physics just won't allow it. So yes every upside has a downside for sure. That being said, I would think generally a wider motor will give you greater mechanical advantage that outweighs the additional force required to spin the wider motor since the props are still a far greater load source than the motor itself, giving a significant boost to efficiency since a large fraction of the extra power gained is from the mechanical advantage and not just from increased power utilization from the battery as would be more true for a taller stator vs a wider stator. A taller stator will have a taller bell housing as well, increasing the mass and requiring more force to spin, so width vs height I would imagine width would at least have more potential for efficiency gains. At some point there is a crossover where the motor is too wide for its own good of course, I just don't know if we've hit that mark yet with 23mm wide stators turning 5" triblade props. But maybe there's something I'm not considering here, and as with many things the devil is in the details so numbers matter, 1mm change in width probably does not equate to 1mm change in height etc. There will never be a best motor, I agree, just a better motor for a specific application. Novel complete.
Coming from a motorsport background your findings make perfect sense to me and are what I would expect to see too.
In combustion engine terms. Wide stator vs narrow stator of the same displacement could be thought of as a 'long stroke' (narrow cylinder) engine vs a 'short stroke' (wide cylinder) engine.
Short stroke will be less torquey but typically rev higher (lower mechanical stresses) and have greater potential power higher up in the rpm range.
With a wider stator you have more mechanical leverage which suits it well to low down torque and efficiency if you operate in this area of rpm... but if you want top end power you are better off with a wider magnetic flux ring.... akin to the wider flame front in a short stroke racing combustion engine.
Although they show similar bench test static thrust figures... the 2207 will typically unload more and therefore rev higher in free flight and this is why it feels better in real life.
It’s different move direction upside down vs round,2306 has a larger circle,so it rev up slower but more torque.
Video summary at 14:40
You rock Joshua :D
Good stuff Joshua Bardwell. One problem though. Volume of a cylinder is pi*r^2*h, not pi*d^2*h.
It doesn't really change the comparison, but your numbers for volume are off by a factor of 4.
Yes you're right. I got careless there.
Might have to change the "Know-it-all" name now :)
I was thinking those numbers seemed huge, and attempting to visualize how I could fit that many mm^2 in that tiny cylinder was fruitless
damn, and im sitting here scratching my head, and thinking how the fuck he done his math getting 10ml volume??? heh
I totally agree with the preference of 2207s. Granted my 2306 experience was tainted with the emax 2306 2750s, but a massive difference between the two was noted by me.
My first impression (and I could be wrong) is that you need less throttle with the 2207 to do the same. I mean, to get to some high.
i tried 2306 meny models, emax, rcx, dys... And all have one thing in common, if you want to push it it sucks the battery down when over 2400kv. 2207 2300kvish is a softspot for me, plenty of power, plenty of prop choice and flight times are incredible. Keep an eye on 2305 size, seems to be the new sweet spot with 2350kv and 2500kv.
2207 for life!
Nah, 2207.5😜👌
@@thomasthmls4038 Nah, 2208 ✔ 🔥
@@jorgeromero4680 I prefer 2205.
@@vhfgamer that's old school motors
14:42 that would make sense since they have a smaller moment, or rotating inertia since the weight of the bell is brought in closer. You could try adding a bit of weight with copper tape to the motor and see if that takes the advantage away maybe?
2307 Motors. Best of both worlds
Just what I was thinking. Hyperlite makes a 2307 - 2522kv, that's only 31g-ish with short wires. Haven't tried them yet though.
I am running LD Power 2307 2450 KV motors... they are some of my favourite motors
Michael Dean they are amazing. I'm awaiting several sets of fpv af 2307 off rmrc
Agreed best of both I run racekraft 2307 smooth power
No... you have to then put amp draw, increased motor weight, heavier lipo etc into the whole equation... and that negates any overall advantage.... it just alters the quads overall performance parameters in a certain direction and that can be either good or bad depending on the course and/or individual flying style.
Dude your skills have improved tons this past year bud!
nice, always depends on the setup and weight of your kwad, i switched motors a lot from quad to quad to find out what works, i had the best results with lightweight with 2207 and light props like 5043HQ and heavy quads with 2306 with props like cyclone 5046C
Same here - I really like NK2306 2700 kV with 5046C on my race quad - tons of torque, I barely add any throttle in corners. Makes for very consistent speed and lap times.
Same here 😉
what are you consider "heavy" quad? I have Armattan Chameleon. is that a heavy and better with 2306?
2207 has a faster response to throttle input due to the stator width. The height of the magnets allows you to run more aggressive props without “over-propping” your motor. 2306 is going to have an easier time spinning 6” tri-blades than a 2207 or 2208 motor. It’s like a gear in a transmission. The smaller the gear, the less torque can be applied to the driveshaft. The wider the gear, the more torque can be applied. Torque is required to spin larger/more aggressive props.
Propeller and motor pairing has a drastic effect on the performance of a quad. A high KV motor with a high pitch prop is going to be extremely fast but will crush most batteries. If the KV is too high and the pitch too low, your props will flatten out under fast throttle changes (just like tires breaking loose on a car under hard acceleration). If your KV is lower and you run a more aggressive prop, you might have thrust issues in the low end of your throttle range.
Concur on everything - although going to biblade and lower advance ratio in 6" actually feels great on 2207 and 2208 motors. Way better than I expected, especially on hilariously cheap 2208 motors. I've had to toss on some seriously ludicrous 6x5.5x3 props (!) in order to feel like the motor isn't spinning them up super fast, but I still have to violently back that thing into hairpins to mind... but it's an absolute missile, especially on $7 motors.
tehllama42, Which $7 motors? Also, can you explain "advance ratio" in greater detail here? I read this; en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_ratio but I'm still unable to visualize how this works on different quad props. TIA
Advance ratio is actually what people should be measuring instead of prop pitch (many do) - essentially how many inches of fluid the propeller should push you through per rotation - think of it as a final gear ratio in a car. 5x5.5x3 Hulkie props have a lot more advance ratio than 5x4x3 V1s, for example.
The $7 motors are the RCX H2208 (4mm shaft) motors, sans warranty. they're only in 2000KV, but for experimenting on 5S or jumping to 6", they're great - I'm also giving them a try on 7042 Gemfan Flash props to see how they're like.
tehllama42, I got a set of those and the cobra 2208 2kkv's still haven't flown yet; 7" props sound about right for them. So, I get what advance ratio is (I think anyway), but how does it change between bi and tri-bladed props?
Awesome depth review as always. Thats why I love this chanell so much!
Glad to hear, as I have been wondering the difference between the two, and just got a set of T-Motor F60 III 2350s from getfpv, they are on sale for $19.99 each! I have heard good reviews on them, and I like the fact that they are the old style motor with a closed bottom.
Using both. My race build is sett up with 2207.6 on my Hyperlite Floss 3.0. On my source one v3 freestyle build I'm flying 2306. They both fly amazing. For awhile I had them the other way race build had the 2306 an freestyle had the 2207.
OK I have been in electronics since high school, service manager and head tech. at a TV Repair shop ,and all I could say is it looks and sounded like it took less power but more of a punch was the 2207, I also love the RCX Brand more than any other brand for a discount motor. THANKS JOSH ! Looks like I will get these 2207 for my 220mm 5in. frame. have a great week . JohnnyDRC
100% my exact findings between 2306 and 2207 on other brands as well Josh. Literally. I get longer flights with 2207 even though the amp draw is slightly higher as well and I think it’s due to the higher torque and faster speed of the quad that I don’t need to be on the throttle nearly as hard. I find on 2306 I need to be on the throttle a LOT more and my flights get very short. I love 2207 and will never buy more 2306. You literally mirrored my exact findings between the two motor sizes, even your descriptions of the two. Thanks again and great thorough testing!!
- Travis
New proffessional intro is spot on. The UAV futures arms in the air was kinda funny heh
I'v used RCX motors for 5 year now and they are the best value motors in my opinion. They just came out with the LS2207 series which are even cheaper but still pack a sick punch.
Awesome! I'm just moving up from 2205 2300kv to 2207 2600kv on a budget with the dys samguk wei motors.... Glad I chose the correct size! Thank you for confirming my thoughts and choice... Cheers
Excellent video Joshua. It’s one of those things that are hard to grasp until you experience it. Then so very hard to describe to someone who hasn’t. Nicely done & welcome aboard!
I went from 2207 to 2205 and was surprised how much performance this motor has. Well my build is pretty lightweight too. Handles like crazy!
RCX motors have always been good for me. They also have replacement bells, bearings, clips and shafts etc so well worth getting the spares when you order. Bearings have also been easy to replace on the one's i have which is handy too.
I prefer the 2306 2400kv motors for freestyle. I like the bottom end torque that they provide. In the end it all boils down to flying style and how you want your quad to feel. Great video JB👍
We'll thanks Joshua now I want a set of 2207.... can't afford them, but if Joshua Bardwell says they're better they're better... you're my Fpv idol bud striving to be as knowledgeable as you. .
The most important of all you mention, is how you finish you winding on the motor and is the 6 terminals, start or delta, that means you want a low kv and more torke or hi rpm or kv and less torke.
I LOVE that RCX 2207. Massive fan
I have both of these exact motors. The 2207s rock! They just released an "economy" 2207 for 9.99. Maybe different magnets? But I dont understand why people try to steer you away from 2207 motors. They are perfect for the way I fly. They have amazing torque so they are great for quick movements. But I did notice that I dont get as much flight time with the 2207s. Great video!
Thanks again JB
I like the 2207 of ur video comparo, but the inverted 360 with the 2306 sold me!
I could tell that you were up higher in the video with the 2207. Just because that happened to me when I lowered my cam angle. All of the sudden the thrust I was used to giving shot me way up in the air. Kind of the same way more thrust = more height in the flight.
I've been waiting months for this video! And I already came to my own conclusion. 2207s rock! For a cheap motor these things haul ass! Two blade 5046 gemfans these things pop!!! Amazing thrust and good flight times! Thanks for the good comparison!
Good video. Yeah I love the 2207 style and I really love the t motor f60pro2
Totally agree with you.
I had the F60 Pro II 2700kv on my quad and switched to the F40 Pro II 2400kv. With the F40s I always have the problem that I hit the ground when diving because they miss the pop I have with the F60s. On the F60s when I think I'll hit the ground and raise the throttle I'm just skyrocketing into the sky.
I think the 2700 vs 2400 kv is a much bigger factor.
Joshua Bardwell
Of course. What I found interesting is that the higher kv didn't affect the flight time by much. This probably would be different if I was racing, but for my style it's perfectly fine.
agreed i just went from johhny motors (2207 2700kv) to le drib motors (2206 2650) i can really feel the power difference, 2650 was the highest i could get locally as getfpv was out of stock... still like the drib motors but miss johhny's motors. i even went back to 2450kv motors that i still had and nearly cried
We’re all glad there is one:)
Fpvmodel hurricane 2207 and miniquadtestbench gave it a thumbs up. Similar price point. There is also the BBB 2207 and rcaddict love them for the power and smoothness.
Jack Truong
Hi, i got 2306 r5 and 2207 bbb all bnew, which is better? Torque, speed and efficiency, tnx men need advice
ashmawikali143 sorry man, I have either of the motors. It is not an easily question to answer, both of the motors will give you the performance you need but if you are looking for more efficient motors i would recommend 2205 motors with hyper light build for not so serious racing. For freestyle I definitely go for bigger motors like yours. Between BBB and BH, BH is a bigger brand imo. However I have heard a lot of good things about BBB 2207. With BBB 2207 I think there is only one kV, which is really high for racing but great for freestyle. BH 2306 has two kV
I believe. If I would choose I will go for BH 2450kv which is the right kV for racing. For freestyle higher kV. BH 2306 uses 7075 , BBB 2207 no idea and not mentioned in spec,which I suspect it could be 6061.
Good one. 2306 or 2207 draws more amp??
nice flying man, the rotor riot growing in you ;) and thanks for the comparison of cause.
Engineer's answer-
ANGULAR MOMENT- basically you have more "stuff" further from the center. AND the SAME tangential force is at a larger OD. The difference goes back to PI, or ~ +3 times on RADIAL difference. So just a little bit of diameter goes A LOT further than a linear iterpolation.
Thank you very much
I prefer this new intro speech instead of "...you gonna learn something today" nice video
I am curious about how superlight motors like the NK2204 actually perform compared to heavier, more powerful motors. This line of motors is great!
Holy Moly! That was the real life Liftoff scenery!
Cant believe they made Bardwell's yard into a real thing
Did you need to tune the quad differently for the different motors
15:56 This is how a quad twitch sounds like :)
Great Review! now all 2207 motor will be sold out this weekend
been running some cheap motors but a good motor at the same time, DYS 2207 2600kv and 2206 2700kv and I'm loving these motors and super price at $10 each
Sick ! Man, love the new maneuvers.
my b hobby 2207's are great. if you want to full stick it, they go. if you want to freestyle, they pop.
samguk wei's are also great. just not as immediate on the stick. using higher kv 2600 or 2700 you notice the difference in torque.
2306's are also great but I havent spent the money on top end motors in this size. my preference has been the 2207's, even over 2307's. the difference in performance wasnt much but the battery usage was radical.
thanks for posting.
Strange I figured you were like the 2306’s better¿ It seems like your flight was a considerable amount smoother and they had more controllable low-end power for cruising through the tight spots 🤷🏻♂️
BarharborBasher ,I was thinking the same thing, his flight with the 2306 seemed smoother and controlled. His 2207 seemed a little more erratic.
That's what I thought too. The 2306 looked a little more controlled.
Ordinary I’d say it was a shill move to push motors for affiliate cash but I don’t think Bardwell has sold his soul yet ... especially with his HDO review and vtx reviews
Nah, if you look at how much inertia and lag those had, it's night and day, the 2306 was wobbly, like held with chewing gum. The 2207 was so sharp in contrast. I wonder how these differ in long range type flight...
good idea UAV tech
I recently purchased the f-40 pros and the f-60 pros which is a 2306 and a 2207.. I never felt the low end torque on the 2306 like you would think. The 2207 always felt more responsive and torquey but didn't have the top end speed the 2306 provided. And when flying with a go-pro I always go with a 2207-2407 so that I can't tell the go pro is on the quad. So.. top speed=2306... 2207=immediate response, torque and speed with out the top end of the 06'.
Hi Joshua, I hope now you gonna learn something ;)
As a mechanical engineering student, I have to say, everybody should benefit from using a 2207, no matter what's your flight style. A motor with a smaller diameter has a lower inertia. This makes it easyer for the motor to spin up and down. Because of our superfast PID-loop the motors need to spin up and down a lot, no matter what's your style of flying. So a smaller diameter should be more efficient.
A smaller rotor comes with lower torque, so they extend the rotor to create more torque. In theory, the curve is linear between the length of the rotor and the ammount of torque produced. Extending the rotor does lead to a rise of weight but doesn't lead to a huge rise in inertia because the weight is closer to the center of rotation.
To prove this, look at what motors the industry is using for an application where they need to spin up and down realy fast: all these motors are just like ours BLDC-motors but with a small diameter and a long rotor.
Thanks for the great videos !
Lever arm for the magnet-stator interaction is also coming in from a point with better leverage - there's a reason we're not flying 1812 motors.
nice flying looks like you have leveled up
Your flying is getting better dude, you don't suck as bad as used to lol 👍
I thought I had a really clever idea, but I was backwards!
I did the same math as you, but I also subtracted out the volume of the bearing to get closer to the volume of the actual windings. Surely the volume gap between the 2306 and 2207 would appear even bigger then, right?!
Nope. This is where I was backwards. Instead of your 7% difference, I came up with a 5% difference.
Thank you so much! Was just wondering about this...
@Joshua Bardwell
I would describe your quads as "stiff but dampened". This is just my best guess from watching your videos for a couple years. In other words, your tuning seems to be very active to hold attitude, but then dampened to eliminate all P oscillation. Most other quads seem to have a tiny bit more oscillation and prop wash. You hate prop wash with a passion, but you deal with it when there is just no way to get rid of it.
Thx JB! Idea for the video editing: cut amp draw and throttle from osd DVR on top of the GoPro footage.
Yes I tried the emax 2306s and they were beastly at every level. But I have settled on the emax ls 2207 2400kv and love them. Thanks for the videos JB! Anxiously waiting for the rapidfire module review!
I had the 2306 2750Kv, they were fun, but they sagged a 80C graphene like it was a AA, thus, ended up being pretty poor performing motors past 30 seconds.
The 2400 are much softer on your batteries but still have that demonic transition time. There is something about those motors. They literally have power everywhere. I fondly remember when I first put cyclone 5050 props on them and the motors still spun them up like they were nothing. I have since moved on but every now and then I break out my Bush Kwad and rip around on those Emax 2306 2400s
Great video! I have to agree with your explanation :) the 2207s have natural expo throttle curve in my opinion. An interesting test would be to adjust the throttle curve on the 2306 to match the quality of the 2207
Awesome Video! 🍻🍻
Hi Joshua, great job done I'd say. Do you plan to make such video also for motors for 7" quads? I mean for free style or long range kind of copters. Or in this case it does not matter so much? Currently I am using in my 7" LR quads 2408 motors (Hyperlite actually). but there could be also some other motor size options, what do you think? ;)
Surprising. I thought you flew more confident with the 2306.
Maybe I was just having more fun on 2207.
Finally ur doing yaw flick moves. U should do a trick video on that! No one has ever done a yaw flick video and Johnny gapit and willy would be proud
Great job!!!
I know that sounds does not matter, but guys am I the only one that loves the sound of 2306?? 😍 Much more than the 2207. Feels power
Next JB todo list: ESC amp/responsiveness testing for comparison (and finding yaw twitch reasons/potential noise reasons) ?
What FC were you using? Good vid but what about those new 2307's? Lol
I could hear from the noise You were riding your throttle more on the 2206. A little rev up on the 2207 threw you over the trees while it was a climb on the 2206. I agree with your assessment. Love the 2207s. I also love the low throttle power of the 2207. So question. Is this equation correct . “ if JB likes = I likes then I am #NerdLikeJB”
Just thank you so much.
Hello JB. Had to say I really liked your 2306 motor flight. some nice moves you did there . May I ask which battery you ve used in that flight ?
it depends which brand you try and how they make it...I like the Brother Hobby 2306 R5...the 2306 have a bit more torque in the low end which feels better for freestyle IMO...hence most of the freestyle motors being this size...hypetrains, steele, more popular T motor F40 Pro 2...etc...but some do prefer 2207 high kv...
SupaflyFPV This is like the line in Something About Mary. “Ever hear of 8 minute abs? I’ve got something better. Are you ready? 7 minute abs.”
lol 7 is better tho right? Ask T motor which sell the best F40 Pro 2 or F60 - they are the same price...
"and we promise just a good of a work out as the 8 minute folk"
"how"
" uhhhh... if, if your not happy with your work out we will send you the extra
minute free, yea thats it"
What would we do without you JB?!! 😎
Dys 1806 + 6" + 3s = beast mode
More like nostalgia mode
When? 2012?
Lol. Good riddance fellow time traveler.
lol yeaa , i think so, kakakaka
Lovin the 2207s personally
Josh is that frame you were testing with a unibody? Reason I ask is I have had MTO problems with my CMW Speed Addict V2 for some time now. Never really completely went away. I don't experience that on my Hyperlite Evo with separate arms.
I suppose it also comes down to the carbon type, the frame and motor combo but thought perhaps unibody designs might actually be more susceptible to vibration issues.
I can actually hear my motor resonate with the frame with props off at a certain throttle value.
I don't see it in my flight camera, only on the HD footage.
Yes, it was a unibody.
Interesting, thanks for letting me know.
Thanks for doing this kind of video, I really appreciate the part where you worked out the volume of material in the stators. I have not seen anyone do that. Then you backed it up with some sick flying!
I switched to 2207 last year and I am still running 2207's... there is something about the throttle curve on them that just feels right.
2306 is working better for me 😎🤘🏽
Thanks (again) for learning me something today, what props did you use JB?
2207 ftw. I hear the difference verry clear in the videos. I hear from myles far when a 2207 is in the air. I have some 2308's 2700kv,s here and these also give that same feeling as the 2306. Some smooth linear/lame feeling, powerfull af but still they dont give that poppy agressive feeling like a 2207.
When you calculated the area of the motor you did Pi*d^2 instead of Pi*r^2. You squared the diameter instead of the radius.
HEY BARWELL!! STICK WITH THOSE SKIRTS.
Great video. I switched exclusively to 2306 engines. Find these much easier to tune. I also like the sound and torque of the engines. With 2207 I had too much rattling on the engines. But I have to say that they have always had more KV than now with the 2306th I am the opinion that 2306 with 2500kv better and more precise fly as 2207 with 2700 kv. I fly now only Emax and T-Motor engines and have only had good experiences. I think your test is great, but also on your flight videos, I think that the 2306 engines run better.
This is why I fly 2307, I get all the linear feel of a 23XX with the aggressiveness of the 2207, they also only weigh 30gr. I also have 2506's, those run cool and slick as ice, but my 2307's still have more rip- I mean seriously, they are scary fast, max amp draw I've seen so far is 90A so not terrible.
The 2207 looked much more snappy and fun to fly, but whats up with the mushy yaw? Got expo on there or low p?
I bought a set of 1407 RCX motors with out warranty from Myrcmart and 3 of them came with bad bearings. RCX told me they couldn't do anything since I didn't choose the warranty, but I was under the impression that they would send me working motors. Maybe I just had bad luck with this purchase, but I am afraid to order motors though them again.
Yeah I guess it was bad luck. But their customer service does not make me want to shop with them :(
The RCX LS2207 in no-warranty trim has been fantastic for me - unless the durability is junk (so far 9 packs on one quad), then I've found my new motor for everything. In 2400KV (4S) and 1700KV (6S), I don't know what more to ask for out of lighter quads.
The fact that I can slap together builds with mostly decent parts at
I was about the pull the trigger on those, but it's really hard to ignore a cheaper motor that seems to be slightly better at delivering peak power and efficiency. I've been really thrilled with mine, and if I decide to experiment with 6S, the 1700KV LS2207's are the clear winner for prices I'm willing to pay.
That's exactly it - 5 (or 9, or 13) means I have a spare to instantly toss on, and since I have magical luck destroying bells with rocks, waiting for an affordable replacement part. I like having pairs of quads, so ordering 9 works well.
Great information
What happens if we put 2 2207 in front and 2 2306 in back ,as they are similar
You'd want to do one side /other side - the back gets different dirty air behavior.
tehllama42 seems like u tried it
I've had to run some ghetto contingency setups. Also, looking at blackbox logs from matched sets, the back motors do have to work a bit harder.
Love the 2207 with 5S. I still feel like a small increase needs to be in-between the 22 and 23 (maybe a 22.3) and would like to try 08 again.
I also noticed that my rcx rs2206 motors run hot to the point that it is hard to raise D above 35 or turnoff filters
7:38 ermergerd you missed it. I live on a similar property with butt-tonnes of room to fly (it's all dirt here, no grass like yours) and there is 1 solitary power line that cuts our property in half & then runs to the house. I can miss, like you, the power line that goes from transformer to the house, but the HV power line (15m in the air) is what I hit at least once per 10 packs & when I do it sounds like a whip cracking. No sparks or fried circuits yet ... wood, wood, dammit, where's wood when you need it >.