I noticed something within "The Action" the characters do not really get hurt anymore. Example the characters used to get broken arms damaged legs or a hole in the chest now it's just scratches and explosions
Barely even that. Look at Vegeta after fighting Toppo. He fought a literal God, after almost an hour of basically non-stop life or death battle royale fighting, and he just looks like someone pushed him into the dirt.
Well, Super is really against using blood, which might be a reason. Blood always indicates serious injuries, and I think that without it, hits only leaving some bruises makes them fell like minor scratches like you said.
@@themacewens From what I remember of the the Future Trunks arc of Super Goku, Vegeta and Zamasu all get stabbed at some point with Vegeta even coughing up blood and Zamasu get's his head blown off by Goku with a Kamehameha.
As of 20 minutes ago, Akira Toriyamas death was announced to the public. He died March 1st. I can't imagine how Mark and many others with such a close relationship to Dragon Ball are feeling. I know *I* have zero words right now. We lost one of the best. The world of Animation; even the world *period* , is less without someone like him.
Now that toriyama is officially gone the heart of this franchise is gone. Idk what’s going to happen in the future. Is it’s gonna be disappointing like dc and marvel
To be honest dragonball was starting to look interesting again, but now that Toriyama is gone, I'm afraid for the future. We may be at the end of an era... I just can't realize it. I should be feeling something, yet nothing... It's like someone's playing a bad joke.
I feel like Raditz is often understated. It’s not just Piccolo and Goku’s team up against Raditz. It was his introduction to Goku in and of itself at Kame’s house. Finding out he was his big brother, the reaction they all had. Not only that, but Roshi finally having to tell Goku how Grandpa Gohan found him. Dreadfully confirming Raditz’s assertions. A beautiful hook and start to Z that I will always love.
raditz was game changing. Dragon ball was firmly rooted on earth and in journey to the west inspiration, but once raditz showed up, it switch to a sci-fi space anime that opened up a literal whole new world. He raised the stakes by forcing rival and protagonist to team up to beat him, and required gohan's rage and goku's death to truly put him down. he felt menacing and strong, whilst also being cunning and using his wits to make up for his faults (although I'm still annoyed that he never trained his tail to be immune). If it were for him, dragon ball would still be an earth bound story based in mysticism.
@@ProjektTaku Exactly! Plus on top of Goku having to team up with a deadly rival. His death left his son in the very same rival's hands. As far as the tail goes though, I thought that was totally fine. Everything has its weakness. Plus I think it just shows a connection that all Saiyans have. They can't stand their tail being squeezed. I think the nice touch though, was that the Saiyans adapted to it by wrapping them around their waist. As a tactic, to not have it waving around like Goku always did. Which also shows a difference in discipline and way of life. Compared to how Goku was as a kid.
@@Ultimateprototype13 yeah, without raditz we wouldn't get the saiyan saga, frieza saga, super saiyan, super saiyan 2, gohan and piccolo's relationship and so much more. The reason it irks me is that we see that nappa and vegeta have trained their tails to not be a weakness.
@@ProjektTaku True and ahh okay that’s fair, I didn’t remember that. I guess to be fair though, they were considered stronger than Raditz. But it does seem like something he’d be able to do
To me its one of the best fights in DBZ. The fight looked very intense, Piccolo getting his arm blown off. Goku getting his gut blown off, no ridiculous and dragged power ups. It was just an all action chess between 2 soldiers vs a king.
Indeed, after the end of Dragon ball is like they hate each other and stay together because reasons, they dont love each other anymore, and just stay together because
@@Krysnhafr, like I remember in the cell saga when goku kissed her before leaving to go train gohan and then in super he claims to not even know what a kiss is In Z they felt like a real couple, in super they just feel like the classic boring couple chi chi has her typical anger issues and goku is stupid and leaves her to go train constantly I think the only moment they had together was when she was concerned about him after fighting like a novice against frost even though he is meant to be a master In fact goku leaving his wife for months on end to go train with whis is actually a comedic plot point in super Z goku only did that sort of stuff in dier situations like when the saiyans were attacking or when he needed to recover and learn instant transmission on yardrat or when he decided to stay dead to protect earth Literally for 5 years after the 23rd tenkaichi budokai arc he spent his time being a good husband and father whilst training at home Even after beating buu for the 10 years after he was just chilling around at home he didn’t even bother to go see bulma or vegeta for 5 years And yes he went to go train uub but that was also to protect earth in a sense so uubs power wouldn’t go out of control and he wouldn’t become a bad person and also so goku has a rival to fight Now look at super, casually abandons his family to train with the gay angel
"This isn't Akira Toriyama's DragonBall anymore." Is perhaps the line that encapsulates this whole video, as always good work Mark you never let us down
What I think makes it hard for so many fans to understand this is that most fans, if we're being real, has never experienced Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball. Most people know who he is, but have never read or may not even be aware of the manga. Their experience comes from the anime, which is a faithful adaptation, but it isn't Toriyama. Dragon Ball Super is, like the preceding anime shows, a work based on the work of Toriyama. Most fans, simply, don't know Toriyama's work well. So when something so prominent is so far removed from his work, it seems off to those who have never properly experienced it.
By this logic Dragon Ball after the Pilaf Saga isn't Toriyama's either since it was his editors that truly had control over the series all the way up until the end of Cell. Then he wrote the Buu Saga without any influence and now instead of Toriyama's editors telling him what to write its Toriyama telling other people what stories to write.
Man this series has given me so much but it’s crazy despite how different I feel about the original manga gt and super I still love and appreciate all of it faults and all
When you think about it, there isn't a single fight in OG DB and DBZ that didn't feel like something monumental, something heavy, to care about. The Z-Fighters vs Nappa, Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan vs the Ginyu Force, Vegeta vs Android 18, Gohan vs Dabura, every single battle felt heavy and meaningful. Nowadays, I feel like most battles are battles for the sake of battle only, outside of very specific "final clashes".
@@Jeremo-FDif you’re trying to say yes looking at it dragonball through rose tinted lenses then no. You are just flat out wrong. Dragon bal super sucksss
A lot of what kills dragonball for me is sort of what you said by the end, its dragonball by a committee. It is a series that has become so self aware of itself that it is more about pumping out a "hype" product based on things fans can familiarize themselves with, then making new dynamic stories that evolve the world and characters significantly. Now it feels action is the main focus and story is secondary. While before it was a mix of both. That isn't to say new dragonball has failed to introduce compelling or fun new characters: Caulifla/Kefla, Beerus, Zeno. But it feels a lot of it is all window dressing for the main focus: Battles and new transformations. It feels im being handed a product and being asked to consume it, rather then being handed a man's dedicated life's work with his heart and soul in it.
You just put my own thoughts into words better than I ever could. I think a prime example of this is how DBS treated Buu going into the Tournament of Power. Leading into this, we've had moments where Buu could have been helpful but he was snoozing, it was all played off as a gag... then in the exhibition match, Buu gets his chance to shine. Other universes are in awe of Buu's power and resilience, keep in mind this is essentially seeing the final boss of DBZ and considered the height of power in Universe 7... and then, later, we get to see each of the U7 fighters getting ready for the tournament of power, and we get a HUGE surprise. Buu transforms to fight Goku, and takes on a new, sleeker form! He legit looked like he was going to have a significant change in his attitude and just generally as a character, looked like he was going to really apply himself to fighting and protecting the world. Goku was surprised and impressed by the way Buu's fighting style has changed, and by Buu's adaptability in combat! And then... lmao it was just a prank, Buu fell asleep again, let's forget that ever happened. I'm sure there's other examples, but like... man, they could have actually given Buu character development and progression as a character. Majin Buu, the most important character in Z's final arc! And they just made it a gag... for what? The opportunity to give Frieza what is, at the end of the day, the same arc that Vegeta had? I dunno, I look back on it now and I'm just like... missed opportunity to develop and evolve things. And maybe this is just the Buu fan in me speaking, but instead of Frieza, how cool would it have been to see Buu pull it together at the end of the Tournament of Power? Maybe even learning Ultra Instinct just from watching Goku or something.
In a sense Dragon Ball is kind of Star Wars. The original thing finished a long time agao and should maybe have finished a tad sooner than it did. But because of all the Hype and love people have for the franchise we now NEED more and more of it. Not because some has another story to tell but because people would still buy it. And with taht logic comes this 'commitee approach' of do what the fans want. And so we get the endless warming up of old patterns, memberberries and nostalgia bait made by 100 different people with 100 different ideas, tastes and motives. And the endresult is a bland corporate design soup bought by many but really beloved by almost noone.
Whenever GT or Super show a glimpse of story within its action it feels so good. The Roshi vs. Jiren moment in the DBS manga may be the best Super moment ever. It wasn't a "hype" moment, and it didn't feel like action figures crashing together. It was meaningful, as well as being well-composed. Harkins back to the manga's martial arts origins. It's a brilliant character moment and a great "fight", even if not many hits were thrown.
I believe Broly tackled this issue in an interesting way by actually adding plot in the end with Cheelai trying to protect Broly, connecting the otherwise disconnected 2 halves of the film, which is why its my favorite portion of the fight despite the other parts being a lot of stylish.
Honestly, as depressing as that line from the script was, it was also really sweet. Like while it is sad to see that Toriyama isn't really involved in the action, seeing him politely asking the animators to do their best and seeing him apologize for not really doing much work is honestly kinda heartwarming.
if someone understand how fucking hard that kind of work is is toriyama, guy aparently got traumatized from drawing for decades after he finished dragon ball
sounds like dude was done with Dragon Ball, wrote an ending and all, but the company and people around him kept annoying him to write more, so this was his half assed output, honestly they should've just left bro alone after buu saga ended
The anamation in the saiyan saga namely and even the frieza saga are so stylized and visceral. It’s so commonly looked over but the way they drew so lined up so many of the scenes in the Saiyan saga are insane and so unique.
Ironically, the best moments that tapped into that classic DB energy was when Z and Super allowed stories with lower stakes. In a series where the heroes winning is a foregone conclusion and death was no longer a consequence (much less a sacrifice), the slice-of-life and and wacky filler episodes were a nice breath of fresh air. I wish we had more moments like Goku getting a drivers license, the Z warriors playing a game of baseball, or Vegeta getting bodied by the power of gag characters.
I agree, I love the moments where they focus more on the wacky small adventures the characters have in between the major arcs. They just add so much to the lives of these characters and show that there's more to their lives than just fighting intergalactic threats. I especially love the moments with Vegeta and his family as it shows how much Vegeta has developed as a character, not just in his physical strength or power level, but in his growing love for the family he started with Bulma. It even adds to the stakes of the bigger fights as they show what the characters are fighting for.
@@LiamTolentino yea it’s cool but at the same time ain’t cool if we waiting a whole week or two for just a filler episode. Back in the day was different since we already had the anime dubbed and had it for Monday-Friday on television. So it wasn’t a problem watching some fillers. But nowadays , once super comes back , we don’t want to wait a whole week for just a filler
my favourite moment of all time was freiza and bulmer wanting to wish for the same thing. TBH tho I never cared about any of the fights, I just like watching these nutty characters hang out like normal people. If I wanted to watch intese dramatic fighting, I'd watch my parents try to get along for 45 minutes.
On top of that, the stakes of the fights never really feel like they're as high. Yes, characters can destroy universes now, so the world's always in peril, but we don't get much of a sense that a character can really die. Death isn't something that's happening too much these days. If it ever does, we have like 4 dragons out there, plus Wiis, to bring everyone back. But even so, it still doesn't even happen. Blood also is far less, limbs being lost, characters being broken down from loss -- real stakes to these fights just aren't added as they once were.
I feel like the Universe Survival Arc did raise the stakes a lot, but at the same time, in Dragon Ball Super, we know that it's ahead in the time-line of the final chapter of Dragon Ball. So you know that the plot won't allow for doom or anything permanent, other than for newly introduced characters, because in the final chapter, everybody is supposed to be okay
I forget the term for the paradox, but the rule of thumb is "when the stakes are so high that failing would be impossible to recover from, victory is guaranteed, otherwise the story would end in an unsatisfying way."
This is a very good breakdown of why Toriyama's Dragon Ball is as great as it is. As an aspiring writer I think a lot about what makes a good story, but I've never really considered how important it is to keep the story *present* through the whole process. Thank you Mark. You gave me a new dimension to think about things in.
One of Toriyama big flaw is that he can't handle complex characters. He sucks at story telling and only like simple plot with stupid jokes. Whenever he created complex and interesting characters he always end up pushing them to the side because he doesn't know how to use them. You see that with Piccolo, with Future Trunks and with Gohan. He always return to over simplified one dimensional character. Stupid Goku and his rival Vegeta. Despite its many flaws including artistic ones, Masami Kurumada is a much more consistent and better story teller. He keeps his characters consistent despite his story being streched as long as Toriyama. It's not very creative but not ONCE do you get bastardization of his characters. Their personalities are coherent and evolving coherently. Wanna learn how to write, then check Saint Seiya. It's not a perfect story, but you'll see that he does good character development unlike Toriyama.
@@Truhania Toriyama is by no means a good story teller, which he makes up for by being an amazing artist. Dragon Ball is simply a good case for me personally to study because how strongly familiar I am with it. There are obvious reasons why I don't like Dragon Ball super as much as the original series but the how the story telling, simple as it is, didn't pause to make room for the action is a good reason.
@@Truhania yes but no. Toriyama does push aside many good characters bc he either doesn't know what to do with them or doesn't want to overcomplicate things in the long term but saying that he doesn't do good character development is downright untrue
@@Truhania the problem is you cant read brainless rat Goku’s depth Goku values his strength because of the events of his life. After losing his parental figure to a “monster”, his helpessness created a will to grow more powerful to defend himself and those around him. He trains to push himself to new heights and defeats the greatest evil in the world, Piccolo, and is then effortlessly defeated by his brother Raditz, When he asks Krillin to spare Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga, he does not out of morality, but out of curiosity of how far he can push himself. He calls himself selfish for this, but makes the choice anyways. This is the first step of Goku’s change as a person, Goku is pure of heart by the standards of the Kinto’un and yet he is innately flawed. His pure mindset is a both a blessing and a curse. He sees the best in people, he wants to be the best he can be, and he assumes that those around him should share his values. Goku puts his son into a situation that he didn’t realize Gohan wasn’t prepared for, and even gives Cell a senzu because hes so confident. Depsite his flaws, Goku is extremly self aware. Towards the end of the Cell Games, he sacrifices himself and apologies to Gohan for not making the best choices. He even chooses to say dead because he realizes that his existence has drawn seveal enemies to Earth, and during the Buu saga, he tries to give the mantle of Earth’s defender to Goten and Trunks that he cant fight all of the battles anymore, even if deep down he wants to. Goku literally abstained from fighting, the one thing he has dedicated his life to his son. Kid Goku is a child all alone in the woods away from society and his lack of understanding of modern technology like cars which he describes as “monsters” is a result of his lack of indoctrination, speaking of indoctrination Kid Goku is a pretty great embodiment of curiosity, and freedom his curiosity is a result of his lack of teachings of subjects in modern society (lack of indoetrination), The flying nimbus is an magic yellow that Goku uses to transport those who have a pure heart are able to ride on the flying nimbus , clouds symbolize clear thinking and emotional purity these fit Goku well seeing how he is pure of heart and has strong set belifes on what is wrong or right, the nimbus also correlates to he freedom in the many way Goku is free is a set purpose or place Identity crisis Identity crisis is the questioning in ones own idenity, once Goku sees Raditz and Raditz unfolds the story to him and his friends about the saiyans their heritage and occupation and just on general how bad of people they are, Goku is quick to say that he isn’t a saiyan and that he is Son Goku from earth. This neglectance of identity isn’t surprising seeing how Goku and the sayians are opposites and have drastically different morals, Goku’s self acceptance Goku’s self acceptance coming from the realization that his saiyan heritage is something that can be used to good in the world to bring peace one might say the saiyan were ruthless and violent and ransacked peoples worlds to sell them when he accepts that’s he is indeed a sayian and tells Frieza he’s the super saiyan Son Goku, echoed through his speech “I am the light in the darkness” Goku here can be referring to himself the good out of the bad. The one good saiyan out of the many evil saiyans, Affect on world Goku’s affect on his world is the affect on his friends who eventually became his enemies and the whole physical world, Goku in the cell saga knew that if he kept residing on earth his friends said everyone else would be in danger so it was convenient he could use transporting cell to the king kai’s place and also just leave earth for the sake of peace In moral philosophy, deontological ethics or deontology is the normative ethical theory that morality of an action should be based on whether that action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules, rather than based in the consequences of the action, Goku has always kept this philosophy with him since a kid and this connects with his sacrifice great. Goku always had his morals over the consequences we can see this a lot with his interactions with vegetea ginyu and frieza, We saw many instances when Goku has put his morals above the consequences. For example, with his battle with Vegeta he could’ve killed Vegeta and bring peace. But he chose to let him alive because of his moral code and to fight him again. With Frieza he had the chance to kill him and yet he let him live becuase again he let his morals take over him and didn’t see the consequences Battle stance In saiyan saga goku and vegeta stance and position are contrast of each other. While Goku sgands below Vegeta showing that he is the low class warrior also shows his view on strength. Goku was always taught that there was always someone stronger than him while Vegeta was taught he was destined to be the strongest and Vegeta looking down shows that he believes that he is the strongest and his strength is complete. While Goku looking up shows how he believes that his strength us limitless and that there are others stronger than him. Both of their stance show how they were trained, Goku stance presents the turtle hermit school, they move low and find a weakness and strategies, Vegeta represent the elite saiyan training and how the fight full offensive seeing how both hands show are prepared to strike in showing his nature as a saiyan Spirit bomb vs great ape Goku and Vegeta main attacks contrast each other in the saiyan saga. The spirit bomb is said to take energy from your enviorment and goku being a saiyan yet denies his nature and stays with his nurture or his enviorment and it is also said that the spirit bomb is stronger when it absorbs the sun. Vegeta on the other hand uses his saiyan nature as his trump card which is great ape form and it is to be said to be powered up by the moon showing how goku symbolises the sun (being clear and self) while vegeta symbolize the moon (being a shadow and blocks the light) these two attacks symbolise their nature vs nature Both Goku and Vegeta were confusion on who they were. Goku was in conflict with his saiyan nature and we can see him in conflict with his own morals and identity where he spares nappa out of the goodness of his hear (nurture) while he spares Vegeta because he wants to fight him again (nature). We can see more of this in his fight with Frieza and how he toys with him, says he’s going to kill him, and is drowning in anger (nature) he also speares him, gives him ki, lets him leave (nurture). Vegeta is going throught the same thing but is apposite as well. Vegeta is in conflict with his humanity and his saiyan nature. He can’t see to understand who he truly is which leads him to Majin Vegeta and Vegeta putting up a facade while deep down he isn’t him true self. He even goes to greater lengths and abandon his own mortality to gain strength. What’s great is that they were facing the person who had the biggest impact on them in their entire lives. Goku to frieza and vegeta to goku. Another is how it contast their nature vs nurture dynamic where vegeta was in conflict with his nurture while goku was in conflict with his nature Nationalism vs patriroism Vegeta and Goku ideology both contrast each other as well. Vegeta ideology being nationalism and Goku being patriotism shows how they both took pride and identified with their race. This difference is how they toke in reactions when they witness the flows of the saiyan race tries to deny it and live in this false ideology that they are the perfect warrior which would cause him to go majin vegeta (trying to return the status of the saiyan race which vegeta believes are the perfect warrior) What I love about this part of the dynamic is how it showed the difference of Goku and Vegeta in terms of being free. Goku believing that humanity can move forward hows how free goku is while vegeta can get over the past and is blind by it Sacrifice Goku and Vegeta sacrifice parallel each other perfectly. Both Goku and Vegeta desire caused more harm to the people they vared about that caused more good to themselves. We can see this with Vegeta and Buu and how Vegeta’s tubborness caused buu to be revived. For Goku was his actions with the red ribbon army and his desire to fight which caused more harm than good. Both Goku and Vegeta said similar thing when they were about to sacrifice themselves. We can’t beat him by fighting. I’ve been thinking and I can’t come up with any other way to leave the earth” Both of these showed that they were looking past fighting and showing that these sacrifice mean something other than any fighting tenchqiues. They even saw a reflection of themselves when fighting Buu and Cell. What’s ironic about these two sacrifices is that both enemies back which showed how it was never themselves to being with and that it was someone one. They both contraduct themselves, Goku ppannrd in to stay away from earth and leave it to the next generation but then chooses to come back and help Gohan. Vegeta when coming back after sacrifing himself fights the same way and contradicts himself again. Written by Anco.
This is an exceptionally accurate take. I've felt this for years. In Japan, Goku's motivations have always been about the love of the fight. But during the original run, there were always plot points that either supplemented, or through a wrench in his ambition to just simply fight. You see, Goku is a very peaceful person. He just wants everyone to be happy and everyone to have fun. So whenever Goku saw people in danger, he understood their plight. Fighting became about saving his friends, and saving the world. That's why when Frieza kills Krillin, Goku's rage hit us the hardest. In the US, this shift is likely felt even more. The English dub wrote Goku as a hero that ALWAYS wants to do good and protect all things., as opposed to his will to protect being reactionary. But both versions provided the same feeling... *A SENSE OF DANGER* whenever an enemy threatens peace. A sense of danger that evolves because the stakes are always being raised, at intervals, which made the story feel grand and important, leaving you always on edge. Goku's love for peace comes to the forefront, surpassing his love for fighting, but they still work in tandem and evolve with the plot. But NOW? Goku JUST fights. That's it. In Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Super Broly, he just fights his opponent. The sense of danger is completely stripped. The only time a sense of danger was felt in this modern Dragon Ball era was the Goku Black arc in Dragon Ball Super (half of the Tournament of Power was chill and blase). That arc did a great job of establishing danger, and evolving plot points as time went on. The fighting felt meaningful, and that's why it's easily my favorite arc of the Super series.
I gotta ask this. When you hear goku now............No offense, but don't he sound like a fucking grandma/girl ? As a swole ass man like that sounding the way he do, ain't it a turn off? Like cant they switch to a younger/fresher voice actor for him in Japanese?
@@searchingforname5254 The tone of the voice is the same as when I was a kid. I don't see much difference. However, Nozawa can't shout at the top of her lungs anymore like 30+ years ago.
You perfectly phrased my thoughts on modern Dragon Ball. I think in particular the big hook for the fights was the heavy sense of danger and impending doom that permeated the arc from beginning to end. The Piccolo arc had impact because he was obsessed with destruction and chaos; the Saiyan saga was impactful because the Saiyans were powerful experienced fighters with little regard for the people of the planets they colonized; Frieza held even less regard for the “weak” or “useless”, he literally wiped out the Saiyans despite their usefulness to him when they became troublesome, etc. etc. Time and time again the enemies were shown to be legitimate dangers to the galaxy as a whole, both because of their insane power and because of their complete lack of remorse or empathy. The series always made a point to show what it would be like if the villain got their way. This gave the fights a sense of urgency, since the audience was well-aware of the consequences if the Z Fighters didn’t win. Super rarely has this: Beerus is convinced to spare the Earth with minimal difficulty and later even becomes a reluctant pseudo-mentor for Goku and Vegeta; Frieza personally didn’t feel like a threat because he was so far below the main cast in terms of power that even if he was still hellbent on conquering the galaxy he just wasn’t threatening anymore, and the other arcs are tournaments with ultimately zero impact on the story. The only sort of exception was the beginning of the Zamasu saga since the story frequently showed the consequences of Zamasu’s rise to power, but since the later parts were all set in a future that couldn’t be affected by Zamasu in any way, they lost most of their tension. Ultimately, I do enjoy some aspects of modern Dragon Ball, and I look forward to seeing new installments in the franchise, but I can’t deny the fights lack a sense of pressure/consequence, regardless of how intense and breathtaking they are.
I always loved the Frieza and Buu fights for having multiple elements play out alongside the fighting, like King Kai's plan to revive the killed ones and move everyone away from the exploding Namek, or the whole thing with Kid Buu's fight having many sides trying to stall for time and more I miss that so much, it definitely stinks that modern DB has action just scripted like that
So you just skipped past the black, top, broly movie, Moro, and granolah arcs? Cuz all those sagas required teamwork from a bunch of different elements to win and unlike in Z where they always win, in the black arc dbs had the balls to show that even the characters you think are helping you are even bigger of a threat. I’ll never understand why dbs doesn’t get more respect despite all its done as a successful sequel
@@leultrainstinct406 It's not to say that DBS is bad. It's just that it's not as good as DBZ was. The entirety of the Namek Saga was a near perfect story. In the beginning, we had the setup of Gohan and Krillin leading the charge to find the Dragon Balls, despite being two of the weaker fighters, so they couldn't really arouse suspicion or get in too deep. You also had Goku and Piccolo training while waiting for their respective methods for arrival, so there was suspense. Would they even be able to bring Piccolo back? Would Goku arrive too late? You also had the Piccolo character arc of him coming around to being an out and out good guy moving along nicely, as well as the start of that for Vegeta with him also double crossing Freeza. There's so many more moving parts in the Namek Saga that all gel perfectly, while the bits in Super, while done well at times, are too linear, even if done really well.
@@leultrainstinct406 That's kinda true of the Goku Black arc but it's not at all true of ToP/Broly, and the other two were manga-only which most people haven't read compared to watching the show. Yes ToP had multiple characters contributing in different ways, but the actual fights felt pretty divorced from that (and indeed, from the rest of what was going on). They were for sure trying to ape the usual atmosphere of a tournament arc from dragon ball, but the story contribution of each fight felt pretty minimal and the tension was pretty lacking by comparison. I enjoyed super, but it's not DBZ.
You hit the nail on the head for the very reason why I love Dragon Ball and why I have loved it since I was 5, the layers of story that happens in the action. It isn't just the action but conditions, consequences and parallel stories all happening during the fights. It wasn't as simple as bigger beam attack.
I have the same thoughts, still wonder why Beerus didn't destroy Earth after Goku lost, or at least half, he destroyed like a small piece of rock then just left.
@@whymustyoudisagree9158 and thats what I'm trying to explain here. Beerus destroyed planets but it so happens that when he came to Earth, "he didn't feel like it" removes all consequences from that fight
I'm reading the original manga again and I sure miss these moments. Like with the frieza saga and the early android saga, fighting was more a fail state and it it all came down to it if every other option failed.
Finally someone spoke what I’ve been feeling about Dragon Ball recently, I realized something felt missing with Dragon Ball in the recent Super chapter in which Goku and Gas were teleporting to different planets and fighting, the fight felt boring to me and I was ready for it to end just so the narrative could continue which is something I never felt with the original manga series and anime, the fights really no longer tell a story also, they’re just there for flashiness mostly with a few exceptions like Goku vs Jiren in the anime
Also, granola arc so far is mostly bullshit. An half assed dragon can grant strenght beyond god forms. Once upon a time there were actual limits to the dragon's wish granting abilities
@alian ha granolah got his arms broken, and got shot in the eyes and in the chest, how is that not violent ? "We all know in super there will be no cruel deaths" saganbo dies because of an overdose of energy, then his body gets obliterated by a random attack because fuck him, also moro slowly losing his sanity was one of the most cruel ends to a villain in dragon ball.
@@ItchRevenge92 yeah they get strong but the price is their whole lifes, granolah got on the same level of goku and vegeta but he only has 3 years left while goku and vegeta still have some decades to live, gas in the most recent chapter looks like a fragile old man, and yet goku and vegeta still find a way to evolve to compete with them, it shows that hard work surpasses cheating, the same message was showed when goku fought moro with UI, sure but had UI but moro couldn't handle it because it wasn't his, he didn't train for it, and his body and mind payed the price.
Man this made me appreciate again how genius and trailblazing OG Dragonball and Z were. No wonder that Geniuses like Eiichiro Oda call Toriyama "Sensei" with much respect and adoration. Influence.
I feel a major consequence of the franchise's power creep is that, in order for the main characters to have legitimate external conflicts, the antagonists need to be god-tier threats. And while there's nothing wrong with high stakes (Namek saga and Cell saga are excellent), I do miss the OG DB days where we could have more grounded threats like Mercenary Tao or the human soldiers of the Red Ribbon Army.
Now I want a story focused around Tien, Yamcha, and Chaiotzu that ends with Tiencha's introduction, as Tien would find the Fusion Dance easy to replicate, just like how he saw the Kamehameha.
Meanwhile, now everything has to be like 1 sextillion times universal to be an actual threat, which is stupidly hard to believably write. Granola gets a pass because he cheated to get the power, but everything else is just bullshit.
Brah, you nailed it. I literally took a 3 month break from the Manga until we got back to the story. The fights are dope but just feels drawn out. No pun intended.
Thats more because of the monthly release, the same critism was made towards the moro arc but when the arc ended a lot of people thought that it was more enjoyable that when it was releasing.
GREAT VIDEO!! Honestly for me while I'll always unconditionally love for Dragonball theres been soo much stuff where they do something really interesting & captivating but then afterwards I've felt the seasonal rot hit the series Hard, but we will see.
A lot of the action these days does feel more like someone bashing action figures together than the fights of old. The lack of consequence to each individual fight plays a role in this, too
I want to blame the whole no consequences thing not on what Super does, but WHEN it takes place: the years between Buu and EoZ. Had Super not taken place during that time, I feel like many people who feel a little bit more generous towards it in terms of critique.
@@ligtningdog6399 yeah. because we KNOW it's in between Buu and EoZ so no matter what happens, at the end of the day we know everything will be fine because everyone is alive at EoZ.
@@evilkratos55 not only that but super completely screwed the end of dbz by having pan be born so early. She was only 3 years old at the end of dbz and trunks and goten were full on teenagers that looked to be at least 15 years old or more. So it just threw the entire thing out of wack since they have a limited time slot between the end of the buu saga and dbz itself
@@evilkratos55 I've never bought into these kind of arguments. The tension in stories never comes from IF the heroes survive and beat the villains or not, the tension comes from HOW they do it. Besides, this is Dragon Ball. If someone dies, they are probably going to be revived anyway. The reasons Mark explains in the video resonate with my experiences better.
The biggest problem is the lack of bloodshed and ample suffering. When they were show, it gave the character's both vulnerability and suffering while leaving room open for true perseverance over an obstacle even in the face of certain death.
The biggest irony is that while now there are world-ending threats and super powerfull beings, there is less bloodshed. Where super powerfull god like entitied appear blodshed and suffering is vound to happen. But nope😒😒😒
And specifically how, in the manga Toriyama used serious injuries specifically to build tension and move along the plot. (Tien's arm being ripped off means he will bleed out soon. Gohan's arm being broken makes him still soldiering on to beat Cell a lot more tense, etc.) The movies and Super don't have as much violence because there are no plot points involving character injury.
I feel like the real turning point was the Buu saga. It was the point where a lot of the progress of previous arcs was undermined and the story started entering a cosmic scale. Not just that, it firmly established that anyone who wasn't a Saiyan was irrelevant. Super has been a continuation of that storytelling for better or worse. Dragon Ball's established storytelling died when Cell died.
It also had a definitive timeskip and lost the momentum of the story. Nothing about the story would have changed much if Goku were still alive during and after the timeskip, and nothing else really builds off of the previous arc in a major way. Sound familiar? That's the structure of modern Dragon Ball.
Totally nailed it! Modern Dragon Ball lacks the sense of GRAVITAS, TENSION, and DANGER that was present in Z especially. The events and fights meant something. The characters literally fighting for their lives and the lives of those around them. The realization they have that if they lose this, If they don’t defeat this enemy…everyone is dead. That gave such a weight to Dragon Ball that made it the battle shonen that all others are measured against. The Z fighters were the defenders of Earth and, for all the humor that could be found in the series when it came down to it, all of them took that shit serious. All of them had a killer instinct that was fire to see. Add to that the dumbing down of Goku to almost ridiculous levels and we’re left with a Dragon Ball that just feels like it’s missing something. Dragon Ball Z on the Toonami block in the 90s is what introduced me to anime. I love this series and it’ll always have a special place in my heart. Hopefully it can get back to what made it so great narrative wise.
I enjoyed how they were forced to use every form of strategy they had to defeat enemies and were driven into corners as the stakes were just so high. I'm so sad this element of Dragon Ball is now gone :(
Did the potential for universe ending chaos not feel urgent enough to you with Zamasu/Black and Tournament of Power? The stakes certainly were different than from the days of Z, but still seemed high to me, thus pushing along a usually powerful drama dynamic.
@@Gumby518 there wasnt a single moment i thought they were in danger during the zamasu arc or any arc tbh. not a single character died and blood was almost nonexisted.
This shows that you are a TRUE fan of Dragon Ball. True fans don't say how everything in a series is amazing, but acknowledge what's good and bad about a series
People who says that don't know how Dragon Ball used to be and how different feels now, they only know how it is currently and how praised it is as a series and after they watch it, they think: "woah, so that's why it's so known", but true fans understand how this series has fallen
Wow. I think that comment might be one of the most confident, unrepentant expressions of *an actual, blatant No True Scotsman fallacy* I have ever seen.
Great video and I agree wholeheartedly, Toriyama's brand of frantic, kinetic storytelling is why I love Dragon Ball so much and this video made me realize the specifics of why I don't care for modern DB, it just doesn't have that.
I wanted more of Gohan’s school antics, and I hate how everyone refused to let Toriyama explore it more. I love tomboys, and I would have loved to get more Videl.
To me, the Day Dragon Ball Died was when Goku said he’d come back for 24 hours. It felt editorial and intrusive, and it felt like there was simply no more passion in Dragon Ball. There was still heart, but it was clear Toriyama was no longer passionate for the story he had to (or felt forced) to tell. I believe the highschool superhero arc with Gohan was the right decision for both tonal and power creep reasons, as we can see in the Buu Saga, struggling to make itself raise the stakes more and more and be serious.
Really DBZ should have ended with cell and a new series should have started with Gohan's superhero arc (could have called it dragon ball: the next generation) similarly to how between db and z the tone shifts from comedy with bursts of action to more dramatic, with focus on action, this new series could be more slice of life with Gohan basically taking up Goku's mantle in his own way as a superhero, perhaps the series could still have Majin Buu but save him until the last arc or something like that.
@@genebowa2621 it's kinda funny that you say this. Thinking about it, dragonball solves what i thought didn't work for me in boruto, for instance. That series kinda relied on the old characters to try and anchor the viewer to the next generations. Felt super stiff, somewhat manipulative. All because naruto ended before the next generation was born, and boruto as a series was stuck between having to be its own thing, and at the same time having to carry a transition period. It felt like the series didn't know what it was supposed to be, and it never did quite manage to let go of the previous generation But dragonball completely solves this by having the entire Z series being a transition point. We have plenty of time to get to know and get attached to gohan before having to give up on goku and the rest of the crew. There's never a jarring rupture, gohan gets to be given protagonism gradually over the sagas, culminating with him defeating cell alongside goku, and it all feels like a very natural progression to him being eventually left to have his own story its a shame, a dragon ball: next gen would have been really cool. As a character gohan only gets flack for being underwhelming because up to the cell saga he was really cool, and then got left out afterwards
The things that "killed dragon ball" for me are: 1- There is no more adventure of gathering the freaking dragon balls and they're almost not important at all with Bulma wishing for vain things. Summoning Shenlong was an awesome moment and it had big stakes with people not being able to revive twice. 2. Goku teleportation skill killed the adventure of traveling to places 3. As they can use the DragonBalls whenever, there are no stakes in dying (and no one dies anymore)
I truly feel sad after having watched this. This video made me realize a lot about how I feel about current dragon ball. Honestly I still really love and cherish it. I like a lot of the stuff we get like games, movies, and hopefully very soon the return of an anime, but now I truly feel the absence of toriyama's unique and wonderful touch. Again, like the video says, that's not to say what we have isn't good but just different. And for better or worse it makes me sad.
Yea honestly at the end of the day everything changes into something good or bad and we can’t stop it. Take for example marvel. It isn’t what it used to be
Bringing Freeza back full-time marked the biggest sign that things were changing, to me: Instead of separate arcs with their own villains, now he's a fixture, something DB's never had, and he feels like a Saturday Morning Cartoon bad guy, always shaking his fist and vowing to "Get those Saiyans NEXT TIME!!" Well, we'll see if the latest development with him goes somewhere interesting, but they should just kill him off for good now...
Pilaf was already supposed to be the Saturday morning cartoon style villain for the series but I guess they just keep forgetting about him until someone needs a plot device to bring forth a greater evil or mildly inconvenience the heroes in some way
Absolutely, just watch DBS Broly: he finds this super-strong sayian and brings him to earth hoping he will defeat Goku & co? This sound like a Tom & Jerry plotline 🤦
And don't forget that Goku has no problem with releazing a maniacal dictator back into the galaxy so he can mass-genocide to his heart's content again. What a hero...
When I tried mentioning this to people, they kinda just chalked it up to me being a "hater". I'm glad someone like you had the ability to formulate your words way better than I ever could because THIS is exactly what I was at least trying to say but could never figure out how. Thank you.
I deal with the opposite. A lot of people who haven't even seen Kai or the Movies don't even want to entertain the fact that DB was once a great anime. They just chalk it up to lazy writing and macho screaming, which is the opposite of what the show was (tho the filler was annoying af). I try to tell haters how good the Freiza arc or Broly Movie were and they basically don't believe me. The kicker is that it's kinda true that DB has a lot of problems later on that tarnish it's reputation. It's honestly a really frustrating show to both defend and criticize.
@@digitalcamaro9708 Frieza Saga yes, Broly movie? Nah couldn't defend that as it was a generic "oh bad guy but not really" spin on a popular character that we have already seen and done much better within Dragonball
It's really dumb that people are so protective of successful series that they can't do anything but say "hater" if you dislike it. If I understand a series well enough to discuss it, any reasonable fan should be able to counter my criticisms with facts I either missed or forgotten or recognize that by the fact that I actually am trying to discuss the events of the series that I clearly like it enough to try and absorb what's happening. My not liking the current direction of Dragon Ball does nothing to harm Dragon Ball's success; it just means I'm falling out of love with the series.
@@kylerbrown3202 I know. I was still talking about the Dbs Broly movie. I prefer the DBZ one because it's not trying to do that. It's an evil super Saiyan being legit evil and I respect what they stuck to despite his upbringing. A tragic character though? If they took more notes from Wrath of the Dragons Tapion then maybe
Farewell akira toriyama... You were the reason I have a number 1 favorite anime may you rest in peace you have created a nostalgic anime that will Last in everyone's hearts
When I hear the phrase 'this show is dead' I immediately think of the flash. That show went from something amazing that even tho it was a CW show, you could still enjoy yourself to guys with superspeed play with lightsabers
Super is more like GT because it’s not canon and other things although Super is more closer to Z. Make a new season and/or series literally continuing from Z with no retconned and keep Super around and say it doesn’t continue from Z like it was said for GT.
What you say makes complete sense and for me I feel this aspect has been at its worse in the Goku Black arc and the Granola arc. Plot happening between the fights and random set pieces/events with little to know thought. Doesn't mean they weren't enjoyable. Just you can feel something is missing as you just watch it happen.
Disagree w the goku black arc while as a story it ain’t great goku black himself was a great villain and he’s the reason that ppl actually started to care about the super anime that arc didn’t have much good in it but goku black and zamasu were the only good things about it and it’s pretty clear they are cos they’re both so memorable. Granolah u could be right about but I think it depends on how ideas such as ultra ego etc are all used in the story moving forward
@@sanjaynambisan2538 oh sorry I'm not talking about the villians. I like Goku Black and zamasu. I think as characters their great. I'm more talking about how it narratively goes from SSJ rage, To Mafuba, To Vegito, To Sword of hope, to Zeno erasing everything with little to no reason or set up. The while some of them have a few breadcrumbs of set up most of that just happens and your watching like it's cool but the moment you think about most of it, you're left scratching your head about you know? Alot of that stuff though was still enjoyable on the surface but lacked any other enjoyment to find underneath, narrative wise. I still think Super has done a really good job with most of its villians
I think the manga did it just right by removing all the plot holes and making a good story that is different than the anime but to me moro's saga was peak super
The new db just doesn't have that rawness when they're fighting, it's not dirty no blood it all feels too glossy and bright i just don't feel that they are hurting each other 😅
@@addie275 You should read the moro saga then, toriyama is the one who made the plot for it btw, a bunch of planets are destroyed there with innocent people and alot of innocent people die to the villain including a major character its also pretty bloody too
To me, the Day Dragon Ball Died was when Goku said he’d come back for 24 hours. It felt editorial and intrusive, and it felt like there was simply no more passion in Dragon Ball. There was still heart, but it was clear Toriyama was no longer passionate for the story he _had to_ (or felt _forced)_ to tell. I believe the highschool superhero arc with Gohan was the right decision for both tonal and power creep reasons, as we can see in the Buu Saga, struggling to make itself raise the stakes more and more and be serious.
I wouldn't say that it was intrusive, especially since Goku coming back wasn't executed as an ass pull. I would say how the buu sage kept dragging on when it could've ended in 3 other fights was the bad part.
Yeah, I mean Gohan was going to become the main character in Z after Goku died. Nobody liked that because they preferred Goku. Whether Goku is better or not, maybe the story would have been better with Gohan.
Really DBZ should have ended with cell and a new series should have started with Gohan's superhero arc (could have called it dragon ball: the next generation) similarly to how between db and z the tone shifts from comedy with bursts of action to more dramatic, with focus on action, this new series could be more slice of life with Gohan basically taking up Goku's mantle in his own way as a superhero, perhaps the series could still have Majin Buu but save him until the last arc or something like that.
For me it’s when Goku returned in the Buu arc. That was the point where it felt like the series couldn’t grow anymore and got stuck repeating the same character arcs going forward. To a degree I was already feeling this with the heart medicine sidelining during the Androids, but most of the complaints about the feel of the modern action applies to the Buu arc for me as well.
I agree. The buu saga was hyping up the next generation to pick up where Goku left off. But in the end, they all fail and Goku has to pull a "if you want something done right, do it yourself". I think it would've been great for Gohan and Gotenks to defeat buu together. Have Gotenks ALMOST get the job done but just fall short because they're still kids and need to grow a lot (kinda what happened). Then Gohan picks up the pieces as a young talent but still a veteran fighter too.
Yeah, and the thing is, the series did a lot to elevate Gohan from the Cell arc all the way through most of the Buu arc. Goku could have come back and been a supporting character, but as you said, it retreated into repetition. The same series that switched tones from gag comedy to action comedy to action drama(+sci-fi) looked at the opportunity to switch gears again and said "nah I'm good".
I agree with you. Goku should have died in Namek explosion as the only Super Saiyan and leave Gohan to be the MC. How can a simple Android be stronger than Frieza the ruler of the universe?
@@LonerWarrior that's true. Gero only had data on Goku up to his fight with Vegeta. Then based on that, he creates androids as strong as a super saiyan. As far as he was aware, that's overkill.
I think for me the moment where I "dropped off" and felt like it wasn't the same anymore was the Buu saga (I still watched it all obviously). The Cell saga felt like the ultimate conclusion of Goku's story and past catching up with him (Dr. Gero, Red Ribbon Army, Cell) and Gohan's potential finally awakened to defeat the world ending calamity. I think while certain moments from the Buu saga were really REALLY good, as a whole it felt like it was made with a sigh rather than a smile.
Agreed, I will always die on the hill that DBZ would’ve been a perfect 10/10 had it ended after the Cell saga. The whole Buu saga afterwards just felt like Tori doing a victory lap to introduce more characters and transformations for the sake of $$$. More merchandise from toys and new characters for video games.
Same. For me, after the Cell saga is where i really feel the show changes. It feels like everythign after Cell is more like a oneshot story that they thought up on the fly, rather then something that had been planned and worked towards. I still enjoy the show after that point, but its post Cell where my opinions changes from "This is a brilliant anime you should absolutely watch" to "Its a fun anime I enjoy watching."
Ending it with the Cell Saga would have been a problem because Vegeta's character development didn't come to a conclusion yet. The same way ending it with the freeza saga would have left Gohan's character development hanging.
As lamentable as Dragon Balls action writings decline is… This is going to be a REALLY helpful video to reference for my own writing later. Thank you Mark!
Probably because Kidd buu actually felt like a genuine threat. He frame 1 blew up the earth and then came to heaven basically to fight them. There haven't been stakes like that since then. The biggest arc in the TOP didn't have any cause you already knew U7 wasn't gonna be erased so that just killed the whole thing
This is such an interesting take. I’d argue that post-ToP, Toyotaro has begun taking this same approach, establishing a narrative storyline throughout the fight. I just genuinely don’t believe he’s as good at it as Toriyama. Edit: To clarify for some of the responses, I don’t think Toyotaro is a bad mangaka. As Mark said, he has a style that is distinctly represented in DBS. The Moro arc, for instance, was REALLY good at demonstrating this. It’s not the same style as DBZ, but I would honestly put most of it up there with high points of the Buu saga, for instance. I just don’t believe he’s as good at balancing Toriyama’s storytelling style with a battle raging on.
You have no grounds to say that Toyotaro is worse than Toriyama. What you have to consider is that Toriyama has ultimate control of the story boards. Toyotaro mainly just puts plot points together. The truth that people don't want to except is that DBS's writing isn't as good because of *Toriyama* . He's surrounded by a bunch of "yes men". He doesn't have a stern editor rejecting his ideas and pushing him to do better things, like in the original run. So he puts out weak content and there isn't much Toyotaro can do with his creative freedom to "save" the arcs. But as a coping mechanism, you people keep blaming Toyotaro.
@@Xeno574 He's not. He has *never* been the main author. He has made this clear in several interviews. Toriyama creates the plot outlines with Toyotaro contributing some ideas. Toyo connects the plot points in the manga, then Tori supervises every manga chapter, constantly giving approvals and rejections. Toyotaro has gone on record saying that Toriyama depresses him with rejections he gets.
@@TonyMishima92 You're assuming wayyy too much about this guy based on a simple opinion. Like, who is "you people" anyway? Seems like you're lumping him in with a much worse group for no reason. Though I do somewhat agree with your point.
@@N.N01 On his comment, he clearly blamed DBS's weaker narrative on Toyotaro, even though the evidence clearly suggests that it's not his fault. So I think what I did was mostly fair. I didn't have to be as confrontational, but I'm SO fed up with people acting everything is Toyotaro's fault when he's not even the main author. Even the biggest DB youtubers consistently get this wrong. No one but me is speaking the truth here.
If I may add something. One of the things I enjoyed in DBZ was that you could reasonably keep track (at least roughly after scouters were not a thing anymore), of the power level of each character. You knew beforehand how much each transformation/technique powered up each character and, moreover, you could use your knowledge to predict the outcome of a fight. It helped building up tension and anticipation. After Z literally nothing makes sense anymore. Z team struggles against basic frieza soldier apparently. A character can fight the same way against base form and SSJB goku in a few scenes. "I just powered up 10 times with this technique" but the fight did not seem to notice at all, you know? Let alone the fact that according to super logic, if mecha Frieza jogged 10 minutes before reaching earth he could have taken down perfect cell easily apparently.
And then Beerus says “you couldn’t have beaten Frieza like this” to post-Buu base form Goku. Wait, what? Though to be fair, that’s not exclusive to Super. GT bugged the hell out of me every time characters didn’t even bother going Super Saiyan against an enemy they damn well knew needed it, or dropped back to base form and kept fighting like nothing changed, or a much lower power base form character lands a hit on a character SSJ4 was just struggling to even catch… hell, if Omega Shenron was that powerful, how is base form child Goku just tanking shots from him like he doesn’t even feel it after him and Vegeta just got completely manhandled in SSJ4? Because the spirit bomb needed to be protected, so reasons? The sanctity and logic of battle power went right out the window post-Z
@@ilgaglioffo6715 I mean, in one sense that’s true, but in another sense, the Dragon Ball animes have always been a group effort, and especially the battle scenes were often left up to others anyway. The people who worked on GT obviously had access to all kinds of Z and OG DB footage that they used for reference and flashbacks, so really they should have known better.
For me the story is what's missing in the newer Dragon Ball. The Tournament of Power was really disappointing for me. I thought there was something interesting that's gonna happen with Zemo and the angels, or with the other gods of destruction. I was expecting some context or motivation to be revealed for this event but nope, it was really just a Royal Rumble. They're just parading these characters like a toy exhibit. Older Dragon Ball was more than just the fight.
@TomCruz54321 Agree 100% on the TOP. Great idea but terribly written. Here's a simple idea that would have made the tension more significant....The tournament is announced, but NOBODY is told that the universes are at stake. Goku still just thinks its a fun chance to fight "Strong guys". The Fighters are summoned to the Arena. Zeno erases all universes BEFORE the fight begins. The last fighter standing can still wish them back, BUT that's IF that fighter wants to. Then that makes the desperation to win much more real, and it makes the threat of Frieza wanting the wish for himself more serious.
Dragonball hit it's peak in the Android and Cell saga's and nothing has ever come close since then. It has the most beautiful story of Goku passing on the torch to Gohan and it was also one of the last times that I felt Goku came off as intelligent. The idea that he saw a power greater then himself in Gohan and sought to cultivate it so that he could be the savior the world needed rather then being the thickheaded battle horny character he becomes later on was great. That's not to say Goku didn't always like fighting and growing, but then later on he just comes off as an idiot where fighting is pretty much his top priority over everything else. The introduction of the Gods and the concept of the multiverse could have been an amazing next chapter for Dragonball, but then they proceeded to shit on that storyline nearly immediately. What is the point of introducing literal "Capital G" Gods to the universe, only to have Goku attain near god ascending powers such a short time later. Like the introduction of the multiverse took Goku from being one of the strongest characters in existence, down to a small pea in a huge multiversal playground and then back to suddenly being right back at the top after the tournament of power. The idea that Goku unlocking UI put him firmly in the realm of godly powers and even beyond some of the other universes God's of destruction was so stupid. Toriyama and I guess by extension Toyotaro don't really know how to raise the stakes of the story except by contradicting themselves and just upping the ante for each subsequent villain. Which was another reason why Cell was the best saga. Cell was literally the culmination of every villain they had ever fought, and Goku was emotionally intelligent enough to understand that he should let Gohan handle that, even going as far as to decline further training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. That's not really something present Goku even seems capable of doing.
yeah i really love Old Dragon Ball the Cell Saga feelt like the ending just feelt right and the writing was good buu saga had Vegeta developed but it could of been better
It's absolutely ridiculous that Goku didn't teleport back to Gohan. If he can sense King Kai who had a much weaker power level than any of the Z fighters, Goku should've teleported Cell to King Kai and instantly went back to Gohan.
You know, I always thought the Frieza saga was the perfect ending and Cell was kinda unnecessary, even if the story was great. but seeing your arguments actually changed my mind. The Cell saga really was the story where everything came together up to that point. I’m honestly mad at myself for never seeing it that way 😅 (Although to me Frieza is still the best villain, coming across as being actual evil where Cell just seemed arrogant)
I feel like there's another very important point you missed. Back when Dragon Ball was running on Shounen Jump, he was a very famous mangaka, but a mangaka nonetheless. Which means his work had to run through his editor first, that would reject weak plots and sometimes force change. Remember that at the start Toriyama wanted 19 and 20 to be the main villains of the android arc and then 17 and 18. Cell was the third go at the main villain of the arc, and the perfect form was something the editor asked for (iirc when shown the second form he said "can't wait to see the next form" when tori was planning for that one to be it). Nowadays I doubt that what Toriyama proposes is taken with that much criticism and it hurts the end product.
@@Dedition It’s also silly to say “toriyama’s dragon ball” as if it was some carefully planned and clear vision that toriyama had. He was always a gag mangaka forced to add more and more action focus due to editorial and audience demand. It’s not like he wanted to focus on the fighting before, he never did, which is clear by the fact that he now writes everything BUT the action.
@@TheWickedMessenger3 it's not that he didn't focus on the fighting before, it's that his natural writing style is fundamentally damaging when he's not the one drawing the scene. Toriyama is really good at improvising fight scenes, he just makes a fight up while he draws it, so when asked to tell what to do and there's going to be a fight, he just says "and here they fight, X wins" since that's how he's used to work.
Ah, so this is why all of the new series/movies felt off to me when I watched them. I felt something was missing, but I couldn't put my finger on it until now. Thank you, Mark, it all makes sense now.
I have loved DB throughout, but after the Saiyan Saga death was no longer really a thing because they had the Namek Dragonballs, and then Dende makes new Dragonballs that can wish people back multiple times. It took away any risk. I also missed the training aspect. I loved that the characters had to usually overcome some sort of obstacle to get stronger and that it was shown how they trained, but the later episodes skipped over that and had them practice off screen.
what does the title of the series called? it's "Dragon ball"... and what does the dragon ball do? to " grant wishes "... and what does those wishes are? to "resurrect" and that's all.. i hope you get it lol
Shenron’s powers depends on the the powers of the Kami and he is the one who decides what can be wished for. But if I remember correctly king Yemma is the the one that decides what happens with each soul and Vegeta could not be revived with the dragon balls if could be wrong it’s been some time.
@@IsidroEstranghero wow way to miss the point completely. The original dragon could only bring back a person from death once, and the body had to be in good condition. So battles actually had consequences. When we get to Namek everyone can be revived forever and FOR ME PERSONALLY, that took away the drama because it didn't matter anymore if someone died or not.
@@NinthShinigami every movie launch, the launch of Super, and every new transformation has been a revival for Dragon Ball - it brought mainstream eyes every time it happened
@@sethrod13 Noo, Bio Broly is gt lvl of bad, not super. I ain't a DB wanker fanboy, but for real Bio Broly is the worst movie, and the worst thing that ever happened to DB.
As someone who grew up watching the original English dub of DBZ on Toonami, I totally agree with Mark. Dragon Ball has not been the same since, and never will be. That special flavor that was captured back then simply cannot be duplicated. RIP Dragon Ball.
i mean it can if toryama went back to the old ways of writing and being more involved but doesnt due to some reason and im ok with that ill just accept the series for what it is and can always watch the series how it was when im done with how it is now
I’m glad you brought up “the action”. I started watching the old Dragon Ball again and found the fights way more enjoyable. Super has its moments but it feels more like power ups and flash than actual martial arts. The last great action fight in Dragon Ball I can remember is Goku vs Cell.
You know, thinking about it I kinda feel like the Goku, Frieza, & 17 vs Jiren fight tells a lot of that emotional storytelling that's inherent in the original run. While still very much a product of it's time lacking direct involvement it does use it as a way to convey the feelings of trust while using the entire fight to have both Frieza and Jiren grow as characters through the conflict.
I think Battle of Gods (specifically the movie, less so the anime arc) actually hit a pretty good balance with this, considering it had to adhere to a particular runtime and act structure. The fight between Goku and Beerus, to me, feels like a conversation that happens to involve punching and ki blasts. Not as tightly plotted as anything in Toriyama's manga, of course, but you can definitely see character development happening on both sides through the duration of the fight.
That's probably cuz Toriyama was actually involved with the Battle of Gods movie, and less so with the anime or manga versions of it. It's also why Battle of Gods just excels compared to DB Super as a whole, either the anime or manga.
I remember as a child waiting in the morning for an episode of Z to come up it’s what brought me into anime I remember Goku going super saiyan against Frieza and and that was the most hype thing I agree it does feel different now but I do love the franchise still I do hope when it actually comes to an end that it goes out with the loudest bang
What bothers me the most about any IP is when it starts devaluing its own concepts and worldbuilding. Like having Goten turn super saiyan for the first time as a gag to embarrass Gohan despite not going through nearly the same effort and pain to earn it. Or merely making the transformation a "back tingle" in Super. Not to mention Super made everyone look skinnier for some reason which is especially noticeable for Future Trunks who was the most bulked up out of everyone at the end of the Cell Saga.
Honestly super never was going to live up to db and z but the manga has really brought me back to my childhood. The manga still feels like the life blood of db. The moro arc was something that genuinely brought me back to my childhood. It was a great arc
The granohla arc will be a better read when you can just read through the whole story. But the Moro arc is the best arc super has to offer. I hope the anime can come back one day.
Great video. I never noticed it before, now it's pretty clear how the action is an afterthought narrative-wise, most notably in the movies. The bit about Toryama just writing about a big action scene made me remember RWBY's Mounty Oum situation. If you don't know about it, I have a feeling you would greatly enjoy watching how Mounty Oum used to direct and animate action scenes expressing characters' personalities and propelling the narrative forward. Sadly, at one point he passed away, robbing us of a great person and changing drastically how action scenes would occur within the series.
I am legitimately happy you made this video and explained so clearly what I’ve struggled to convey to people. I’m happy and grateful that the buu saga exists because it gave people like me a chance to say goodbye to the stories and characters I grew to love and enjoy. I can’t speak for everyone but for me, saying that is important and when we don’t say goodbye, we lose something important.
As a new fan to db (only been into the series for a year) i quite enjoy ALL of the content, not just the old stuff, but the new too. edit: warning, some salt in the comments below. I respect your opinions as old fans but i think i shoudl be allowed to liek the current stuff too.
im an OG fan.. i do love the recent content, but i generally feel that theres too many transformations being done (yes, it includes UI and UE despite them being techniques).. it feels as though some transformations had been done useless like the SSJG, especially when blue came out
@@paulocuento9949 This is interesting that new fans are enjoying everything from DB, but old fans feels like the series isn't the same anymore. As someone who's also quite new (well almost 2 years in, i didn't grew up with it), i quite enjoy all the new stuff from DB. Ofc DBS isn't without it's many flaws.
@@paulocuento9949 I wish they focused more on the actual core power of the saiyans rather than the whole god ki thing... or if they did want to merge in the god ki... and why for whatever reason... having 5 saiyans focus all their power into one would somehow create a god or whatever... maybe they could of really gone deeper with that concept and created a narative about it say... perhaps revealing that the origin of Saiyans were from actual gods? here's a little concept I came up with on the idea. Before the race of Saiyan's ever existed... the name "Saiyan" Was actually the name held by a God. that God was the First God of Power... He had the appearance of a Great Ape... (Hense the Great Ape transformation in the Saiyan Race, it is in essence symbolic of their true form, the form of the person whom all Saiyan's originated from, The First God Of Power. ) His time as the "God Of Power" was slowly dwindling... as in his creation they had made a mistake... no body could contain the power that was held inside of him he was a ticking timebomb... the angels knew of his unfathomable power, but that power was too much for any... even a deity... it could not be sustain in his body... His demise was inevitable... and so after his demise they would replace him with another powerful being... Saiyan knew his time was at an end but he did not wish to die... he wanted to stay the strongest and hold his position as the God Of Power as that is why he was created in the first place, it was his entire purpose of existing... his duty... but it was inevitable... his body could no longer continue... and so... he made a deal with an Angel... for them to help him one day return... reborn in a new body. so that he could reclaim his place as the God Of Power... And so as his time came to an end... The Overwhelming Power could no longer be contained and he dissipated and vanished... like stardust... but all of the fragments of the power that he had held inside him still lingered... and from that lingering energy would each grow into beings of a new Race in the Universe... The Saiyans. Across each individual Saiyan held a very small amount of his Power... but there would one day be a Single Saiyan to hold the true potential of his power. for him to be reborn and his legacy live on... Reincarnated... that Saiyan would be none other than... Broly.... DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUN. I mean... you get the idea... it doesn't feel half assed as much as the whole god transformation was originally done in super... it at least connects the Saiyans to the Gods in some way... it explains why the Saiyan's have so much potential, it explains why they have a great ape transformation... it goes deeper into explaining why beerus/whis may of been searching for this Legendary "Super Saiyan God" perhaps what they were truly searching for was Broly, the actual Reincarnation of Saiyan... but they could only sense Goku/Vegeta's power at the time as it was much higher than Broly had yet to show for. it would also Explain why Broly is so powerful in the first place... as he is literally... the actual Reincarnation of Saiyan... no different than what had happened with Kid Buu and Uub. I don't think my concept sounds too far fetched and In my opinion would deeply improve the story/concepts of dragon ball super.
@@bigenson18 I’m a relatively new fan as well, since 2018 and I feel that the weakest aspect of db is just the plot/storytelling but this is only for the Super manga. The writing for the Granolah/Gas arc has been just straight up terrible in my opinion. Nothing got me hyped or hooked and it feels stale
I still love Super Broly but I will never forget how tense I felt when I watched Goku vs Frieza in DBZ, Goku trying new strategies only for them to fail. Frieza seemingly being invincible and the catharsis of watching Super Sayian Goku not only defeat Frieza but also destroy his worldview.
100% agree. After so much of that fight being Goku desperately trying to just survive, not win, to have him turn into a Super Saiyan and basically pull a Reverse Uno Card on him was so satisfying on a level I can't describe.
Something that needs to be adressed, the whole point of the Buu Saga was to show that Goku needed to stop forcing the next generation to take his place as the main hero and learn how to work with others to defeat their opponents (which is repeatedly stated by the gods within this arc and all of Super), which is why the focus of the main character keeps changing to show that one individual warrior alone isnt enough to defeat Buu, which Goku doesnt realize until Vegeta finally tells him to use the Spirit Bomb. And this obsession with passing the mantle started when Trunks came back from the future and told Goku that he was going to die (along with the rest of Dragon Team). And after Goku realizes this lesson you'll notice in the continuities following after Goku is more laid back but also working as a team more often (even Master Roshi who had previously passed the mantle down to Tien and Goku back in the day is now also fighting alongside his successors). This is also why we dont get such evil villains but instead antagonists who challenge Goku's ideologies, especially Jiren the Grey and Zamasu. I don't know if you watch videos from other Dragon Ball content creators but if you can please watch The Strength of Son Goku by Seththeprogrammer as well Ultra Instinct vs Ultra Ego: Clash of Philosophy that Geekdom101 did with Jordan the Dragonlee to get a deeper understanding of Goku and Dragon Ball as a series because I feel there are things you heavily misunderstand about the series, definitely including Super.
The buu saga was just a way to write how goku can get the spotlight back in the end. Toriyama needed Goku to come back to life somehow and then somehow end up the one winning the whole saga due to pressure from Japanese fans who only wanted goku and did not care about the others. Super is just an exaggerated and desperate version of what the buu saga was. Goku's IQ was reduced by 40 points to make it more comedic for the younger audiences super is catered to. Goku's character is now a days only "I like to fight strong guys for the heck of it" when it holds no meaning to it other than a selfish desire. The Tournament of Power should have been the perfect instance where goku is shown that there are consequences to this selfish desire goku wants. But what did super do? they did a 360 and said that it was goku who actually saved the universes cause Zeno was gonna destroy them anyways. Dragonball now a days is just trying to pump out new toys with all of these transformations that hold no meaning (other than UI). I think you're wrong my friend. Dragonball is dead, and I think the biggest contributor to that was a creators carelessness or exhaustion to the series.
@@boltskyline2957 Toriyama was not pressured by anyone into "bringing Goku back into the spotlight" that rumor is just as false as people saying Dragon Ball was supposed to end at Frieza or Cell, rumors started by people who have bad understanding of Dragon Ball and its characters then get upset that it doesnt follow your headcanon. And Goku was not "ruined" by Super (same goes for the rest of the cast) but as a stated before you and other people have made your own interpretation of the character and now say he's a bad character when in reality you never actually understood him or the show overall. And the transformations are not meaningless, theyre all tied to different chakras and have buddist roots also everything in media sells toys thats not exclusive to modern Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is not dead and is more alive than ever before stop being so blinded by nostalgia
@@toddstone230 Yeah honestly a lot of people only understand Dragon Ball on a surface level. They misinterpret too many things and dont realize how much deeper the series actually is
@@Far2Sega4U Toriyama was indeed pressured to bring Goku back during the buu saga as you saw he had the freedom to start the buu saga with Gohan, then somewhere along the line it is pretty clear he had to scrap any ideas that involve any of the children getting a spotlight as he attempted it with Gohan and with gotenks only to then come back around to goku. Every chapter toriyama wrote prior to the buu saga tournament, indicated Goku's time as a hero is coming to a close with his villans becoming more intense and goku realizing that it may be safer for earth if he stayed gone, and Gohan surpassing goku all indicated goku was going to pass off the mantle to someone else, either from the Japanese audience, or his editor, there was an obvious pressure to keep Goku alive that wasn't toriyamas own doing. You just say that goku was not ruined by super but fail to elaborate why. You can give a comparison to the forms in super to tradition to give them some sense of value, but you can't deny that they never have (aside from UI) made the impact or had the build up story wise like the original super saiyan. During the life span of the ssj1 form, from goku on namek all the way till Gohan with ssj2, super would have already had 5 forms in the same time span. Dragonball is dead in terms of story. People that HYPEEEEEE over a new form and giving their money to Toei brainlessly isn't a way to measure a successful story.
Man, this was such a spot-on analysis. I still love the franchise and enjoy both the manga and anime. But it hasn’t been the same since the conclusion of the Buu arc when the original manga material ended. I remember how disappointed I was during the original US broadcast to see how much GT had departed from the feel of Z. I was even excited for GT before it aired. I thought that the story shifting to a more Dragon Ball like adventure story would have been refreshing as opposed to the epic battles in Z, but the soul of the story was just gone. I actually do enjoy the manga material, and there have been some apostles of the anime that catch a little bit of that old spark I had as a teenager recording the Cell saga to watch after school, but it isn’t and can’t be the same. Even if Toryama were to wish on the Dragon Balls to be back in his prime and take over the story completely, I have to face the fact that I’m older and watch the story through different eyes than I did over two decades ago. Doesn’t mean the new stuff is bad or that I’ve somehow outgrown my enjoyment of the franchise, but both DB and I are different now. I’m ok with that.
@@pn2294 there aren’t any fences here, so stop trying to keep the gates. I enjoyed the Cell saga when I was in high school, you apparently don’t. I don’t care if you don’t since that’s your preference, but turning your nose up doesn’t make you cool.
Totally agree with this video. The Buu arc was the weakest in Z but it had some really important moments that contributed to the overall story and rounded off Vegeta's character/story. His acceptance of Goku being better than him and him being content with it was a really nice and great moment. Everything that came out after Z always felt off, it lacked heart.
Saiyan, Frieza and Cell arcs are the best out of Z in my opinion. Gohan's high-school story, SSJ3 and the fusion being the only highlights of the Buu arc for me. Other than that it just falls in the similar tropes that the cell saga did. Earth's in danger, a villain that absorbs people and transforms becoming stronger. Only difference is that Goku saves the day in the end.
This made me realise why I haven’t found most of dbs that interesting. Even in other animes/manga sometimes I just want the fighting to end let there be some plot development, but at least usually the plot develops as the fighting goes on, while in dbs you just have to wait till the end
When they hit eachother now it sounds like boots squeaking, they feel too clean, in the old ones there was this sweaty white knuckles rawness that took your breath as much as they were losing theirs
@@xtreme-gaming don't get me wrong I'm sad I even cried but this world is full of surprises what u said just now is not true he still have people that he believes him that's why I said that dragon ball is not dead if u were a fan u wouldn't say what u just said
I’ve always been a big fan of the less serious, more laid back moments in Dragon Ball, like Gohan and Videl training together, or the big journeys the characters went on. I still do enjoy the fights, and this explains why I prefer a lot of the fights in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z compared to the stuff after them Also, random side note, does anyone know the music used at the end of the video? It’s used at the end of a lot of Totally Not Mark videos, but I’ve never known what the song is called
You hit the nail on the head. I was wondering why the fight in Super Broly felt like it was kinda dragging on for me. It's still an amazing battle. But the story before it was a lot more interesting to me.
I grew up with Dragon Ball, just like you all but it was mostly through Kai and the Z movies (which were still transmitted through Cartoon Network in my country before, the shit happened). And honestly, its been such a ride. I've watched various animes which I know are objectively better than Dragon Ball in terms of being a shonen. (HxH, og Naruto, One Piece, hell, even Bleach were better shonen in terms of story, and in terms of battle, Bleach was on another level, and HxH too) None of them ever came close for me than Dragon Ball though. Idc if its nostalgia carried, I still heavily enjoy the story, heavily enjoy the characters, and seeing a new transformation every saga or so will never get old. Even if I like other anime now, Dragon Ball will never stop being my favorite anime of all time. Call me a shit taste person, but I think we all agree that Dragon Ball will forever hit different, Like Pokemon too. Its just too emblematic to die off like that.
@@SuperSaiyan3985 I know there are a bunch of people who think that Dragon Ball as a whole is just having shit taste. Not taking into account the Masterpiece that are the Sayian and Frieza sagas of Z or og Dragon Ball.
@@tarz1109 Even if I enjoyed watching shippuden, og Naruto is where it all was a masterpiece. Later on kishimoto wanted to make it about aliens and samurais and that wasn't good. Boruto is the result of a broken story not wanted to be fixed by a supposedly and proven talented author. Its like Kishimoto doesn't care anymore with Boruto.
I grew up with DB too but once I got my hands on the other shows you mention, it felt lackluster to me. Still cool and all but a bit outdated. For me, it was because in other shows, more characters got major spotlight and their time to shine instead of just the ONE (usually Goku) beating the big bad in the end while the rest of the cast stared in awe offering minimal (to zero) help.
After Mark embarked on his journey to read One Piece and other stories I knew this day would come. I also love how Mark says he isn't gonna say dragon balls new style is worse but then proceeds to outline his points as such lmao.
Just because One Piece is better than DB it doesn't make OP a good manga at all, DB is at best a 2/10 manga anyways, so OP should only be like 5/10.. OP is so boring man, i tried reading it, and when tf does it get hype??! im already 120 chapters in... I like berserk more..
It all peaked at the Freeza Saga. Super is just flashy lights, member berries and souless punches. I love how you put it as a "walking corpse." That is precisely what it is.
I love dragon ball's storytelling so much. I actually employ a lot of that classic dragon ball "Dramatic fighting" in my writing. It's defo harder than just saying "fight happens" it's always about Who is fighting, why they are fighting, what they are fighting for, and what winning the fight will cause. For anyone out there that wants to write or become a writer. PLEASE study and learn from amazing works like dragon ball. Writing is tough, but incredibly rewarding when everything you've set up comes together. Good luck y'all! Oh and yet another fantastic video from totally not mark!!
In terms of the manga, as much as I love Toyotaro’s art style and think he’s improved tremendously, I think they need to find some one else for the storytelling aspect, Toyotaro started the Moro and Granolah arcs string but he doesn’t know how to exactly end the arcs off strong and with Toriyama only leaving bare boned notes for him to go off of, I think he needs a partner to help him flesh out the story aspect of Toriyama’s notes so that we can get both perfect artwork along with a perfect story, same could apply for Toei with the anime part of the series
@@leultrainstinct406 no granolah should be the one who killed the main villain ( not gus , talking bout elec ) and that Moro arc ended horribly with another cell moment
@@leultrainstinct406 yeah of course no one saw it coming but the problem is that the arc lost focus halfway thru. It’s called The Granolah arc but yet Frieza is the one to ultimately kill the villain that neither Granolah, Goku, and Vegeta could beat and Frieza did it in one shot. He literally just showed up and did a cleanup of the mess of what was the Granolah arc. There was so much mentioned in this arc that ultimately led to nothing like the Bardock thing, there was no point of that because ultimately Goku didn’t beat Gas in the end. It’s as if Toyotaro forgets what he established in previous chapters and couldn’t focus on one plot point for this arc
@@leultrainstinct406 Just because ending was so bullshit noone saw it coming, doesn't make it any good. Granolah shortened his life for nothing. Black Frieza conveniently training in other dimension when Elec was making wish 1h ago, and coming back right after it is fanfic level bullshit. Frieza also had no reason to leave Goku and Vegeta alive, given he can kill them now effortlessly. The only cool concept (storywise) was a wish becoming a curse. It would be great if Toyotaro actually built the plot around this idea.
Completely agree. The Moro and Granolah arcs started well for me, and they got me hooked quick. But by the last fourth of the arc everything wraps up quickly and with new shit that had nothing to do with the rest of the arc (Moro becoming "Perfect Cell" 2 and Avatar Goku, alongside the new UI Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta transformations just amounting to nothing and Black Freeza coming to beat the main villain), to the point that I consider dropping the manga altogether.
I completely agree. The drama, storyline, and the stakes of the fights is what made DBZ so amazing back in the day. The characters had real consequences.
@@AspiePilo82and you’re saying super isn’t ? Z wasn’t really repetitive at all until the end of the buu saga The first half of Z was a flowing storyline The cell saga also made sense as the villain didn’t just come out of nowhere And the buu saga was random but all 4 arcs had the overarching theme of gohans growth and the cell saga was meant to represent him becoming earths protector and the buu saga was meant to be character development for him to warn him to keep training Gohan should’ve beaten super buu that was the ending toriyama had envisioned but then he changed his mind and decided to mess up the entire arc and gohans character arc so goku could become the protagonist He practically made gohans story useless
Just watched a vid from a year ago, and this man has gotten even more imaginative and somehow became better quality content creator than he already was. Completely astounding
I noticed that during the Z era of dragon ball, there were two very important narrative structures present in every arc, something which one piece also borrowed during its pre-time skip run: 1. The removal of the main character/support characters from the main action of the story. 2. A time limit. Examples are when Goku was rushing from King Kai’s planet to earth to save Gohan and his friends, or when Luffy was tossed in the pool in Arlong park and his friends had to save him before he drowned. These examples fulfilled the above conditions of both taking the main character away from the fight and also imposed a time restriction for tension. The narrative was not as good after the buu arc, as Totally Not Mark said, because of the absence of these two plot structures. For me, personally, One Piece is not as good as it once was after the time skip (it’s still good, so don’t kill me), but like Dragon Ball, it abandoned the above narratives. So I think if Dragon ball is to become what it used to be, it has to bring back the above. That’s my 2 cents.
I feel what you’re saying. With Frieza and Cell they made it an emphasis to try to keep Goku out as long as possible until he fought them in they final form. With the Frieza saga it was mostly everyone Gohan Vegeta Krillin and Piccolos took up most of all the fights. Goku got in the middle with Ginyu but was still taken out of commission in order to give the supporting characters some importance until Goku was able to face Frieza in his final form. Then there’s the Cell saga which I feel is the best saga. They did the greatest job in having everyone serve a purpose with Goku either out due to sickness or training. And what it did was not only hype Goku for that final fight against Cell but also Gohan since he hadn’t did any fighting to that point. Those details seemed small when I was a kid, but now I can appreciate it
@@dominiquerobinson8888 Thanks, mate. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head as to what I was getting at. It’s quite interesting that they pretty much gave Gohan all the ‘main character’ traits with Goku out of the picture. The learning with Ki, taken out of his comfort zone etc, kinda like when All Might comes to save Midoriya, but Midoriya was the one going through all the crap first. And their roles were reversed in My Hero Academia. Then they put Gohan on full blast in the Cell arc finale, which was amazing. Can’t wait for that new movie.
I remember when Dragon Ball Super was about to premiere. My wife asked me, "what more could they possibly do? I mean, how much stronger could Goku possibly get? He was already crazy strong at the end of Dragon Ball Z and now he's a god. What could they possibly make a whole series out of?" I told her that there's always something more. There's always a new level, a new challenge, a new obstacle. There's always something new to learn, something more to experience, and that's what Dragon Ball is all about. There's always something higher.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
I noticed something within "The Action" the characters do not really get hurt anymore. Example the characters used to get broken arms damaged legs or a hole in the chest now it's just scratches and explosions
Barely even that. Look at Vegeta after fighting Toppo. He fought a literal God, after almost an hour of basically non-stop life or death battle royale fighting, and he just looks like someone pushed him into the dirt.
Well, Super is really against using blood, which might be a reason. Blood always indicates serious injuries, and I think that without it, hits only leaving some bruises makes them fell like minor scratches like you said.
"the characters used to get broken arms damaged legs or a _hole_ _in_ _the_ _chest_ " Oh you might like the Moro arc.
@@themacewens From what I remember of the the Future Trunks arc of Super Goku, Vegeta and Zamasu all get stabbed at some point with Vegeta even coughing up blood and Zamasu get's his head blown off by Goku with a Kamehameha.
Goku literally gets a hole in his chest in the Moro arc
As of 20 minutes ago, Akira Toriyamas death was announced to the public. He died March 1st. I can't imagine how Mark and many others with such a close relationship to Dragon Ball are feeling. I know *I* have zero words right now. We lost one of the best. The world of Animation; even the world *period* , is less without someone like him.
Rest in peace to the legend 🙏
Rest in peace😢
I'm collectinig the dragonballs to bring him back, who's with me?
Now that toriyama is officially gone the heart of this franchise is gone. Idk what’s going to happen in the future. Is it’s gonna be disappointing like dc and marvel
To be honest dragonball was starting to look interesting again, but now that Toriyama is gone, I'm afraid for the future. We may be at the end of an era...
I just can't realize it. I should be feeling something, yet nothing... It's like someone's playing a bad joke.
I feel like Raditz is often understated. It’s not just Piccolo and Goku’s team up against Raditz. It was his introduction to Goku in and of itself at Kame’s house. Finding out he was his big brother, the reaction they all had. Not only that, but Roshi finally having to tell Goku how Grandpa Gohan found him. Dreadfully confirming Raditz’s assertions. A beautiful hook and start to Z that I will always love.
raditz was game changing.
Dragon ball was firmly rooted on earth and in journey to the west inspiration, but once raditz showed up, it switch to a sci-fi space anime that opened up a literal whole new world.
He raised the stakes by forcing rival and protagonist to team up to beat him, and required gohan's rage and goku's death to truly put him down.
he felt menacing and strong, whilst also being cunning and using his wits to make up for his faults (although I'm still annoyed that he never trained his tail to be immune).
If it were for him, dragon ball would still be an earth bound story based in mysticism.
@@ProjektTaku Exactly! Plus on top of Goku having to team up with a deadly rival. His death left his son in the very same rival's hands. As far as the tail goes though, I thought that was totally fine. Everything has its weakness. Plus I think it just shows a connection that all Saiyans have. They can't stand their tail being squeezed. I think the nice touch though, was that the Saiyans adapted to it by wrapping them around their waist. As a tactic, to not have it waving around like Goku always did. Which also shows a difference in discipline and way of life. Compared to how Goku was as a kid.
@@Ultimateprototype13 yeah, without raditz we wouldn't get the saiyan saga, frieza saga, super saiyan, super saiyan 2, gohan and piccolo's relationship and so much more.
The reason it irks me is that we see that nappa and vegeta have trained their tails to not be a weakness.
@@ProjektTaku True and ahh okay that’s fair, I didn’t remember that. I guess to be fair though, they were considered stronger than Raditz. But it does seem like something he’d be able to do
To me its one of the best fights in DBZ. The fight looked very intense, Piccolo getting his arm blown off. Goku getting his gut blown off, no ridiculous and dragged power ups. It was just an all action chess between 2 soldiers vs a king.
I just wish we had one moment with goku and chichi actually enjoying being around eachother.
Indeed, after the end of Dragon ball is like they hate each other and stay together because reasons, they dont love each other anymore, and just stay together because
@@Krysnha I know, it’s awful and they worked so well together at the end of dragonball
@@firenze6478 Yes for me or they end it in dragon ball or end it with z and that is it,
Toriyama just doesn’t do romance.
@@Krysnhafr, like I remember in the cell saga when goku kissed her before leaving to go train gohan and then in super he claims to not even know what a kiss is
In Z they felt like a real couple, in super they just feel like the classic boring couple chi chi has her typical anger issues and goku is stupid and leaves her to go train constantly
I think the only moment they had together was when she was concerned about him after fighting like a novice against frost even though he is meant to be a master
In fact goku leaving his wife for months on end to go train with whis is actually a comedic plot point in super
Z goku only did that sort of stuff in dier situations like when the saiyans were attacking or when he needed to recover and learn instant transmission on yardrat or when he decided to stay dead to protect earth
Literally for 5 years after the 23rd tenkaichi budokai arc he spent his time being a good husband and father whilst training at home
Even after beating buu for the 10 years after he was just chilling around at home he didn’t even bother to go see bulma or vegeta for 5 years
And yes he went to go train uub but that was also to protect earth in a sense so uubs power wouldn’t go out of control and he wouldn’t become a bad person and also so goku has a rival to fight
Now look at super, casually abandons his family to train with the gay angel
I wasn't aware that Toriyama wasn't the one to write the fights in RoF, that actually explains so much with how modern DB action feels off
Especially with Vegetas' fighting style.
Starting from top it started to get really good and went crazy with dbs Broly before it was super inconsistent though
Toriyama did write moro's saga though, thats why it was good.
@@happyispoetic yea hopefully we get more arcs with toriyama directing and writing the battles n stuff
@@happyispoetic The fights too?
"This isn't Akira Toriyama's DragonBall anymore." Is perhaps the line that encapsulates this whole video, as always good work Mark you never let us down
Agreed. The line encapsulates the whole video and feelings we fans have towards the works.
What I think makes it hard for so many fans to understand this is that most fans, if we're being real, has never experienced Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball. Most people know who he is, but have never read or may not even be aware of the manga. Their experience comes from the anime, which is a faithful adaptation, but it isn't Toriyama. Dragon Ball Super is, like the preceding anime shows, a work based on the work of Toriyama. Most fans, simply, don't know Toriyama's work well. So when something so prominent is so far removed from his work, it seems off to those who have never properly experienced it.
@@uknownada ppl who start off with super swear everything before it is not as great , it’s giving the Star Wars effect.
By this logic Dragon Ball after the Pilaf Saga isn't Toriyama's either since it was his editors that truly had control over the series all the way up until the end of Cell. Then he wrote the Buu Saga without any influence and now instead of Toriyama's editors telling him what to write its Toriyama telling other people what stories to write.
@@Far2Sega4U Toriyama still had control of the story. He was just pressured to impress current and former editors. So yes, it was still his story.
Man this series has given me so much but it’s crazy despite how different I feel about the original manga gt and super I still love and appreciate all of it faults and all
fr
@Amenadiel 🅥 sdtfu
@Amenadiel 🅥 shut up
No matter what DBS turns into , the whole franchise isn't dead .
Same here
When you think about it, there isn't a single fight in OG DB and DBZ that didn't feel like something monumental, something heavy, to care about. The Z-Fighters vs Nappa, Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan vs the Ginyu Force, Vegeta vs Android 18, Gohan vs Dabura, every single battle felt heavy and meaningful. Nowadays, I feel like most battles are battles for the sake of battle only, outside of very specific "final clashes".
how old were you when you first watched DBZ vs how old were you when you first watched Super?
Nostalgia got this guy over hyped for the past when its just more of the same@@Jeremo-FD
@@Jeremo-FDif you’re trying to say yes looking at it dragonball through rose tinted lenses then no. You are just flat out wrong. Dragon bal super sucksss
@@mafinalmessagechangedaworl7131 there's plenty in super that's good, it's not just flat out bad
@@JJJBunney001like what?
A lot of what kills dragonball for me is sort of what you said by the end, its dragonball by a committee. It is a series that has become so self aware of itself that it is more about pumping out a "hype" product based on things fans can familiarize themselves with, then making new dynamic stories that evolve the world and characters significantly.
Now it feels action is the main focus and story is secondary. While before it was a mix of both. That isn't to say new dragonball has failed to introduce compelling or fun new characters: Caulifla/Kefla, Beerus, Zeno. But it feels a lot of it is all window dressing for the main focus: Battles and new transformations. It feels im being handed a product and being asked to consume it, rather then being handed a man's dedicated life's work with his heart and soul in it.
Yep
You just put my own thoughts into words better than I ever could. I think a prime example of this is how DBS treated Buu going into the Tournament of Power. Leading into this, we've had moments where Buu could have been helpful but he was snoozing, it was all played off as a gag... then in the exhibition match, Buu gets his chance to shine. Other universes are in awe of Buu's power and resilience, keep in mind this is essentially seeing the final boss of DBZ and considered the height of power in Universe 7... and then, later, we get to see each of the U7 fighters getting ready for the tournament of power, and we get a HUGE surprise. Buu transforms to fight Goku, and takes on a new, sleeker form! He legit looked like he was going to have a significant change in his attitude and just generally as a character, looked like he was going to really apply himself to fighting and protecting the world. Goku was surprised and impressed by the way Buu's fighting style has changed, and by Buu's adaptability in combat! And then... lmao it was just a prank, Buu fell asleep again, let's forget that ever happened.
I'm sure there's other examples, but like... man, they could have actually given Buu character development and progression as a character. Majin Buu, the most important character in Z's final arc! And they just made it a gag... for what? The opportunity to give Frieza what is, at the end of the day, the same arc that Vegeta had? I dunno, I look back on it now and I'm just like... missed opportunity to develop and evolve things.
And maybe this is just the Buu fan in me speaking, but instead of Frieza, how cool would it have been to see Buu pull it together at the end of the Tournament of Power? Maybe even learning Ultra Instinct just from watching Goku or something.
In a sense Dragon Ball is kind of Star Wars. The original thing finished a long time agao and should maybe have finished a tad sooner than it did. But because of all the Hype and love people have for the franchise we now NEED more and more of it. Not because some has another story to tell but because people would still buy it. And with taht logic comes this 'commitee approach' of do what the fans want. And so we get the endless warming up of old patterns, memberberries and nostalgia bait made by 100 different people with 100 different ideas, tastes and motives. And the endresult is a bland corporate design soup bought by many but really beloved by almost noone.
Whenever GT or Super show a glimpse of story within its action it feels so good. The Roshi vs. Jiren moment in the DBS manga may be the best Super moment ever. It wasn't a "hype" moment, and it didn't feel like action figures crashing together. It was meaningful, as well as being well-composed. Harkins back to the manga's martial arts origins. It's a brilliant character moment and a great "fight", even if not many hits were thrown.
@@uknownada true, nearly every battle in z felt, to some degree, the emotional resonance we felt while watching Roshi v Jiren
I believe Broly tackled this issue in an interesting way by actually adding plot in the end with Cheelai trying to protect Broly, connecting the otherwise disconnected 2 halves of the film, which is why its my favorite portion of the fight despite the other parts being a lot of stylish.
Fucking hell, DBS: Broly still the most GOATed DB film. It did everything perfectly and literally saved my life.
@@astraldirectrix How did it save your life?
@@Trashboat4444 He makes it sound like, he was was literally gonna jump or something bruh.
@@therisinghero3932 lol
@@therisinghero3932 I was on the bridge and then I saw that guy’s hair turn green, I became a deeply religious man after that
Honestly, as depressing as that line from the script was, it was also really sweet. Like while it is sad to see that Toriyama isn't really involved in the action, seeing him politely asking the animators to do their best and seeing him apologize for not really doing much work is honestly kinda heartwarming.
if someone understand how fucking hard that kind of work is is toriyama, guy aparently got traumatized from drawing for decades after he finished dragon ball
@@carso1500hew retired it makes sense
sounds like dude was done with Dragon Ball, wrote an ending and all, but the company and people around him kept annoying him to write more, so this was his half assed output, honestly they should've just left bro alone after buu saga ended
The anamation in the saiyan saga namely and even the frieza saga are so stylized and visceral. It’s so commonly looked over but the way they drew so lined up so many of the scenes in the Saiyan saga are insane and so unique.
Those were good Arcs
Blud knows the word visceral but doesn't know how to spell animation lol
@@thereallegend6990😭😭💀
Ironically, the best moments that tapped into that classic DB energy was when Z and Super allowed stories with lower stakes. In a series where the heroes winning is a foregone conclusion and death was no longer a consequence (much less a sacrifice), the slice-of-life and and wacky filler episodes were a nice breath of fresh air. I wish we had more moments like Goku getting a drivers license, the Z warriors playing a game of baseball, or Vegeta getting bodied by the power of gag characters.
I agree, I love the moments where they focus more on the wacky small adventures the characters have in between the major arcs. They just add so much to the lives of these characters and show that there's more to their lives than just fighting intergalactic threats. I especially love the moments with Vegeta and his family as it shows how much Vegeta has developed as a character, not just in his physical strength or power level, but in his growing love for the family he started with Bulma. It even adds to the stakes of the bigger fights as they show what the characters are fighting for.
filler was always quite good in DB
Postboy Piccolo
@@LiamTolentino yea it’s cool but at the same time ain’t cool if we waiting a whole week or two for just a filler episode. Back in the day was different since we already had the anime dubbed and had it for Monday-Friday on television. So it wasn’t a problem watching some fillers. But nowadays , once super comes back , we don’t want to wait a whole week for just a filler
my favourite moment of all time was freiza and bulmer wanting to wish for the same thing. TBH tho I never cared about any of the fights, I just like watching these nutty characters hang out like normal people.
If I wanted to watch intese dramatic fighting, I'd watch my parents try to get along for 45 minutes.
On top of that, the stakes of the fights never really feel like they're as high. Yes, characters can destroy universes now, so the world's always in peril, but we don't get much of a sense that a character can really die. Death isn't something that's happening too much these days. If it ever does, we have like 4 dragons out there, plus Wiis, to bring everyone back. But even so, it still doesn't even happen. Blood also is far less, limbs being lost, characters being broken down from loss -- real stakes to these fights just aren't added as they once were.
Exactly
I feel like the Universe Survival Arc did raise the stakes a lot, but at the same time, in Dragon Ball Super, we know that it's ahead in the time-line of the final chapter of Dragon Ball. So you know that the plot won't allow for doom or anything permanent, other than for newly introduced characters, because in the final chapter, everybody is supposed to be okay
I forget the term for the paradox, but the rule of thumb is "when the stakes are so high that failing would be impossible to recover from, victory is guaranteed, otherwise the story would end in an unsatisfying way."
@@CoralCopperHead basically
Ya but holds already run out of resurrections so if he dies now that’s it he can’t come back.
This is a very good breakdown of why Toriyama's Dragon Ball is as great as it is.
As an aspiring writer I think a lot about what makes a good story, but I've never really considered how important it is to keep the story *present* through the whole process.
Thank you Mark. You gave me a new dimension to think about things in.
One of Toriyama big flaw is that he can't handle complex characters. He sucks at story telling and only like simple plot with stupid jokes. Whenever he created complex and interesting characters he always end up pushing them to the side because he doesn't know how to use them. You see that with Piccolo, with Future Trunks and with Gohan. He always return to over simplified one dimensional character. Stupid Goku and his rival Vegeta. Despite its many flaws including artistic ones, Masami Kurumada is a much more consistent and better story teller. He keeps his characters consistent despite his story being streched as long as Toriyama. It's not very creative but not ONCE do you get bastardization of his characters. Their personalities are coherent and evolving coherently. Wanna learn how to write, then check Saint Seiya. It's not a perfect story, but you'll see that he does good character development unlike Toriyama.
@@Truhania Toriyama is by no means a good story teller, which he makes up for by being an amazing artist.
Dragon Ball is simply a good case for me personally to study because how strongly familiar I am with it. There are obvious reasons why I don't like Dragon Ball super as much as the original series but the how the story telling, simple as it is, didn't pause to make room for the action is a good reason.
@@Truhania yes but no. Toriyama does push aside many good characters bc he either doesn't know what to do with them or doesn't want to overcomplicate things in the long term but saying that he doesn't do good character development is downright untrue
Thats like... basic writting stuff... Lol
@@Truhania the problem is you cant read brainless rat
Goku’s depth
Goku values his strength because of the events of his life. After losing his parental figure to a “monster”, his helpessness created a will to grow more powerful to defend himself and those around him. He trains to push himself to new heights and defeats the greatest evil in the world, Piccolo, and is then effortlessly defeated by his brother Raditz, When he asks Krillin to spare Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga, he does not out of morality, but out of curiosity of how far he can push himself. He calls himself selfish for this, but makes the choice anyways. This is the first step of Goku’s change as a person, Goku is pure of heart by the standards of the Kinto’un and yet he is innately flawed. His pure mindset is a both a blessing and a curse. He sees the best in people, he wants to be the best he can be, and he assumes that those around him should share his values. Goku puts his son into a situation that he didn’t realize Gohan wasn’t prepared for, and even gives Cell a senzu because hes so confident. Depsite his flaws, Goku is extremly self aware. Towards the end of the Cell Games, he sacrifices himself and apologies to Gohan for not making the best choices. He even chooses to say dead because he realizes that his existence has drawn seveal enemies to Earth, and during the Buu saga, he tries to give the mantle of Earth’s defender to Goten and Trunks that he cant fight all of the battles anymore, even if deep down he wants to. Goku literally abstained from fighting, the one thing he has dedicated his life to his son.
Kid Goku is a child all alone in the woods away from society and his lack of understanding of modern technology like cars which he describes as “monsters” is a result of his lack of indoctrination, speaking of indoctrination Kid Goku is a pretty great embodiment of curiosity, and freedom his curiosity is a result of his lack of teachings of subjects in modern society (lack of indoetrination), The flying nimbus is an magic yellow that Goku uses to transport those who have a pure heart are able to ride on the flying nimbus , clouds symbolize clear thinking and emotional purity these fit Goku well seeing how he is pure of heart and has strong set belifes on what is wrong or right, the nimbus also correlates to he freedom in the many way Goku is free is a set purpose or place
Identity crisis
Identity crisis is the questioning in ones own idenity, once Goku sees Raditz and Raditz unfolds the story to him and his friends about the saiyans their heritage and occupation and just on general how bad of people they are, Goku is quick to say that he isn’t a saiyan and that he is Son Goku from earth. This neglectance of identity isn’t surprising seeing how Goku and the sayians are opposites and have drastically different morals,
Goku’s self acceptance
Goku’s self acceptance coming from the realization that his saiyan heritage is something that can be used to good in the world to bring peace one might say the saiyan were ruthless and violent and ransacked peoples worlds to sell them when he accepts that’s he is indeed a sayian and tells Frieza he’s the super saiyan Son Goku, echoed through his speech “I am the light in the darkness” Goku here can be referring to himself the good out of the bad. The one good saiyan out of the many evil saiyans, Affect on world
Goku’s affect on his world is the affect on his friends who eventually became his enemies and the whole physical world, Goku in the cell saga knew that if he kept residing on earth his friends said everyone else would be in danger so it was convenient he could use transporting cell to the king kai’s place and also just leave earth for the sake of peace
In moral philosophy, deontological ethics or deontology is the normative ethical theory that morality of an action should be based on whether that action itself is right or wrong under a series of rules, rather than based in the consequences of the action, Goku has always kept this philosophy with him since a kid and this connects with his sacrifice great. Goku always had his morals over the consequences we can see this a lot with his interactions with vegetea ginyu and frieza, We saw many instances when Goku has put his morals above the consequences. For example, with his battle with Vegeta he could’ve killed Vegeta and bring peace. But he chose to let him alive because of his moral code and to fight him again. With Frieza he had the chance to kill him and yet he let him live becuase again he let his morals take over him and didn’t see the consequences
Battle stance
In saiyan saga goku and vegeta stance and position are contrast of each other. While Goku sgands below Vegeta showing that he is the low class warrior also shows his view on strength. Goku was always taught that there was always someone stronger than him while Vegeta was taught he was destined to be the strongest and Vegeta looking down shows that he believes that he is the strongest and his strength is complete. While Goku looking up shows how he believes that his strength us limitless and that there are others stronger than him. Both of their stance show how they were trained, Goku stance presents the turtle hermit school, they move low and find a weakness and strategies, Vegeta represent the elite saiyan training and how the fight full offensive seeing how both hands show are prepared to strike in showing his nature as a saiyan
Spirit bomb vs great ape
Goku and Vegeta main attacks contrast each other in the saiyan saga. The spirit bomb is said to take energy from your enviorment and goku being a saiyan yet denies his nature and stays with his nurture or his enviorment and it is also said that the spirit bomb is stronger when it absorbs the sun. Vegeta on the other hand uses his saiyan nature as his trump card which is great ape form and it is to be said to be powered up by the moon showing how goku symbolises the sun (being clear and self) while vegeta symbolize the moon (being a shadow and blocks the light) these two attacks symbolise their nature vs nature
Both Goku and Vegeta were confusion on who they were. Goku was in conflict with his saiyan nature and we can see him in conflict with his own morals and identity where he spares nappa out of the goodness of his hear (nurture) while he spares Vegeta because he wants to fight him again (nature). We can see more of this in his fight with Frieza and how he toys with him, says he’s going to kill him, and is drowning in anger (nature) he also speares him, gives him ki, lets him leave (nurture). Vegeta is going throught the same thing but is apposite as well. Vegeta is in conflict with his humanity and his saiyan nature. He can’t see to understand who he truly is which leads him to Majin Vegeta and Vegeta putting up a facade while deep down he isn’t him true self. He even goes to greater lengths and abandon his own mortality to gain strength. What’s great is that they were facing the person who had the biggest impact on them in their entire lives. Goku to frieza and vegeta to goku. Another is how it contast their nature vs nurture dynamic where vegeta was in conflict with his nurture while goku was in conflict with his nature
Nationalism vs patriroism
Vegeta and Goku ideology both contrast each other as well. Vegeta ideology being nationalism and Goku being patriotism shows how they both took pride and identified with their race. This difference is how they toke in reactions when they witness the flows of the saiyan race tries to deny it and live in this false ideology that they are the perfect warrior which would cause him to go majin vegeta (trying to return the status of the saiyan race which vegeta believes are the perfect warrior) What I love about this part of the dynamic is how it showed the difference of Goku and Vegeta in terms of being free. Goku believing that humanity can move forward hows how free goku is while vegeta can get over the past and is blind by it
Sacrifice
Goku and Vegeta sacrifice parallel each other perfectly. Both Goku and Vegeta desire caused more harm to the people they vared about that caused more good to themselves. We can see this with Vegeta and Buu and how Vegeta’s tubborness caused buu to be revived. For Goku was his actions with the red ribbon army and his desire to fight which caused more harm than good. Both Goku and Vegeta said similar thing when they were about to sacrifice themselves. We can’t beat him by fighting. I’ve been thinking and I can’t come up with any other way to leave the earth” Both of these showed that they were looking past fighting and showing that these sacrifice mean something other than any fighting tenchqiues. They even saw a reflection of themselves when fighting Buu and Cell. What’s ironic about these two sacrifices is that both enemies back which showed how it was never themselves to being with and that it was someone one. They both contraduct themselves, Goku ppannrd in to stay away from earth and leave it to the next generation but then chooses to come back and help Gohan. Vegeta when coming back after sacrifing himself fights the same way and contradicts himself again. Written by Anco.
March 1 2024 - RIP Toryama
This is an exceptionally accurate take. I've felt this for years.
In Japan, Goku's motivations have always been about the love of the fight. But during the original run, there were always plot points that either supplemented, or through a wrench in his ambition to just simply fight.
You see, Goku is a very peaceful person. He just wants everyone to be happy and everyone to have fun. So whenever Goku saw people in danger, he understood their plight. Fighting became about saving his friends, and saving the world. That's why when Frieza kills Krillin, Goku's rage hit us the hardest.
In the US, this shift is likely felt even more. The English dub wrote Goku as a hero that ALWAYS wants to do good and protect all things., as opposed to his will to protect being reactionary.
But both versions provided the same feeling... *A SENSE OF DANGER* whenever an enemy threatens peace. A sense of danger that evolves because the stakes are always being raised, at intervals, which made the story feel grand and important, leaving you always on edge. Goku's love for peace comes to the forefront, surpassing his love for fighting, but they still work in tandem and evolve with the plot.
But NOW? Goku JUST fights. That's it. In Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, and Super Broly, he just fights his opponent. The sense of danger is completely stripped.
The only time a sense of danger was felt in this modern Dragon Ball era was the Goku Black arc in Dragon Ball Super (half of the Tournament of Power was chill and blase). That arc did a great job of establishing danger, and evolving plot points as time went on. The fighting felt meaningful, and that's why it's easily my favorite arc of the Super series.
Goku only started to enjoy fights when he fought Krillin in the tournament. He loved the sports aspect of it.
I gotta ask this. When you hear goku now............No offense, but don't he sound like a fucking grandma/girl ? As a swole ass man like that sounding the way he do, ain't it a turn off? Like cant they switch to a younger/fresher voice actor for him in Japanese?
@@searchingforname5254 The tone of the voice is the same as when I was a kid. I don't see much difference. However, Nozawa can't shout at the top of her lungs anymore like 30+ years ago.
You perfectly phrased my thoughts on modern Dragon Ball. I think in particular the big hook for the fights was the heavy sense of danger and impending doom that permeated the arc from beginning to end. The Piccolo arc had impact because he was obsessed with destruction and chaos; the Saiyan saga was impactful because the Saiyans were powerful experienced fighters with little regard for the people of the planets they colonized; Frieza held even less regard for the “weak” or “useless”, he literally wiped out the Saiyans despite their usefulness to him when they became troublesome, etc. etc.
Time and time again the enemies were shown to be legitimate dangers to the galaxy as a whole, both because of their insane power and because of their complete lack of remorse or empathy. The series always made a point to show what it would be like if the villain got their way. This gave the fights a sense of urgency, since the audience was well-aware of the consequences if the Z Fighters didn’t win.
Super rarely has this: Beerus is convinced to spare the Earth with minimal difficulty and later even becomes a reluctant pseudo-mentor for Goku and Vegeta; Frieza personally didn’t feel like a threat because he was so far below the main cast in terms of power that even if he was still hellbent on conquering the galaxy he just wasn’t threatening anymore, and the other arcs are tournaments with ultimately zero impact on the story. The only sort of exception was the beginning of the Zamasu saga since the story frequently showed the consequences of Zamasu’s rise to power, but since the later parts were all set in a future that couldn’t be affected by Zamasu in any way, they lost most of their tension.
Ultimately, I do enjoy some aspects of modern Dragon Ball, and I look forward to seeing new installments in the franchise, but I can’t deny the fights lack a sense of pressure/consequence, regardless of how intense and breathtaking they are.
@@ReijiArisu1211 well I have a pretty good ear, and I can hear the difference between back then and now.
I always loved the Frieza and Buu fights for having multiple elements play out alongside the fighting, like King Kai's plan to revive the killed ones and move everyone away from the exploding Namek, or the whole thing with Kid Buu's fight having many sides trying to stall for time and more
I miss that so much, it definitely stinks that modern DB has action just scripted like that
So you just skipped past the black, top, broly movie, Moro, and granolah arcs?
Cuz all those sagas required teamwork from a bunch of different elements to win
and unlike in Z where they always win, in the black arc dbs had the balls to show that even the characters you think are helping you are even bigger of a threat.
I’ll never understand why dbs doesn’t get more respect despite all its done as a successful sequel
@@leultrainstinct406 It's not to say that DBS is bad. It's just that it's not as good as DBZ was. The entirety of the Namek Saga was a near perfect story. In the beginning, we had the setup of Gohan and Krillin leading the charge to find the Dragon Balls, despite being two of the weaker fighters, so they couldn't really arouse suspicion or get in too deep. You also had Goku and Piccolo training while waiting for their respective methods for arrival, so there was suspense. Would they even be able to bring Piccolo back? Would Goku arrive too late? You also had the Piccolo character arc of him coming around to being an out and out good guy moving along nicely, as well as the start of that for Vegeta with him also double crossing Freeza.
There's so many more moving parts in the Namek Saga that all gel perfectly, while the bits in Super, while done well at times, are too linear, even if done really well.
@@leultrainstinct406 That's kinda true of the Goku Black arc but it's not at all true of ToP/Broly, and the other two were manga-only which most people haven't read compared to watching the show.
Yes ToP had multiple characters contributing in different ways, but the actual fights felt pretty divorced from that (and indeed, from the rest of what was going on). They were for sure trying to ape the usual atmosphere of a tournament arc from dragon ball, but the story contribution of each fight felt pretty minimal and the tension was pretty lacking by comparison.
I enjoyed super, but it's not DBZ.
@@Zac_Frost DBZ isn't just the Freeza saga.
@@okagron Thanks, Captain Obvious. I didn't know that.
You hit the nail on the head for the very reason why I love Dragon Ball and why I have loved it since I was 5, the layers of story that happens in the action. It isn't just the action but conditions, consequences and parallel stories all happening during the fights. It wasn't as simple as bigger beam attack.
I have the same thoughts, still wonder why Beerus didn't destroy Earth after Goku lost, or at least half, he destroyed like a small piece of rock then just left.
@@sazerae cause he didn’t feel like it
@@sazerae Because of plot reasons lol.
@@whymustyoudisagree9158 and thats what I'm trying to explain here. Beerus destroyed planets but it so happens that when he came to Earth, "he didn't feel like it" removes all consequences from that fight
@@goodnesswhy obviously
Today is the day dragonball ball died. RIP Akira Toriyama. A true legend
How will the manga continue after his death ? 😔
I'm reading the original manga again and I sure miss these moments. Like with the frieza saga and the early android saga, fighting was more a fail state and it it all came down to it if every other option failed.
You're so very wrong
@@blankfist2921 Not for the Namek Saga
@@blankfist2921 explain how
@@blankfist2921 You just completely forgot about all the hiding and scheming that went on during the namek saga up until the Ginyu Force's arrival
@@blankfist2921 love it when people say you're wrong and walk off like it's an argument, that they won with no less
Finally someone spoke what I’ve been feeling about Dragon Ball recently, I realized something felt missing with Dragon Ball in the recent Super chapter in which Goku and Gas were teleporting to different planets and fighting, the fight felt boring to me and I was ready for it to end just so the narrative could continue which is something I never felt with the original manga series and anime, the fights really no longer tell a story also, they’re just there for flashiness mostly with a few exceptions like Goku vs Jiren in the anime
@alian ha Yea it feels like it adds more characters for the sake of marketing rather than world development.
Also, granola arc so far is mostly bullshit. An half assed dragon can grant strenght beyond god forms. Once upon a time there were actual limits to the dragon's wish granting abilities
the teleporting to planets was poorly done.
@alian ha granolah got his arms broken, and got shot in the eyes and in the chest, how is that not violent ?
"We all know in super there will be no cruel deaths" saganbo dies because of an overdose of energy, then his body gets obliterated by a random attack because fuck him, also moro slowly losing his sanity was one of the most cruel ends to a villain in dragon ball.
@@ItchRevenge92 yeah they get strong but the price is their whole lifes, granolah got on the same level of goku and vegeta but he only has 3 years left while goku and vegeta still have some decades to live, gas in the most recent chapter looks like a fragile old man, and yet goku and vegeta still find a way to evolve to compete with them, it shows that hard work surpasses cheating, the same message was showed when goku fought moro with UI, sure but had UI but moro couldn't handle it because it wasn't his, he didn't train for it, and his body and mind payed the price.
Man this made me appreciate again how genius and trailblazing OG Dragonball and Z were. No wonder that Geniuses like Eiichiro Oda call Toriyama "Sensei" with much respect and adoration. Influence.
I feel a major consequence of the franchise's power creep is that, in order for the main characters to have legitimate external conflicts, the antagonists need to be god-tier threats. And while there's nothing wrong with high stakes (Namek saga and Cell saga are excellent), I do miss the OG DB days where we could have more grounded threats like Mercenary Tao or the human soldiers of the Red Ribbon Army.
Now I want a story focused around Tien, Yamcha, and Chaiotzu that ends with Tiencha's introduction, as Tien would find the Fusion Dance easy to replicate, just like how he saw the Kamehameha.
Meanwhile, now everything has to be like 1 sextillion times universal to be an actual threat, which is stupidly hard to believably write. Granola gets a pass because he cheated to get the power, but everything else is just bullshit.
@@pocketplayer33nah infinite× multiverse
@@godslayerreginald 👆🤓
@madstachoif5512 thanks for calling me smart. I guess you're below average
Brah, you nailed it. I literally took a 3 month break from the Manga until we got back to the story. The fights are dope but just feels drawn out. No pun intended.
It's drawn out for sure. It keeps going and going.
Intend ur puns don't be shy
Same
Thats more because of the monthly release, the same critism was made towards the moro arc but when the arc ended a lot of people thought that it was more enjoyable that when it was releasing.
GREAT VIDEO!! Honestly for me while I'll always unconditionally love for Dragonball theres been soo much stuff where they do something really interesting & captivating but then afterwards I've felt the seasonal rot hit the series Hard, but we will see.
A lot of the action these days does feel more like someone bashing action figures together than the fights of old. The lack of consequence to each individual fight plays a role in this, too
I want to blame the whole no consequences thing not on what Super does, but WHEN it takes place: the years between Buu and EoZ. Had Super not taken place during that time, I feel like many people who feel a little bit more generous towards it in terms of critique.
@@evilkratos55 Super being a midquel was/is it's greatest problem. It leaves the writing with very little breathing room.
@@ligtningdog6399 yeah. because we KNOW it's in between Buu and EoZ so no matter what happens, at the end of the day we know everything will be fine because everyone is alive at EoZ.
@@evilkratos55 not only that but super completely screwed the end of dbz by having pan be born so early. She was only 3 years old at the end of dbz and trunks and goten were full on teenagers that looked to be at least 15 years old or more. So it just threw the entire thing out of wack since they have a limited time slot between the end of the buu saga and dbz itself
@@evilkratos55 I've never bought into these kind of arguments. The tension in stories never comes from IF the heroes survive and beat the villains or not, the tension comes from HOW they do it. Besides, this is Dragon Ball. If someone dies, they are probably going to be revived anyway.
The reasons Mark explains in the video resonate with my experiences better.
The biggest problem is the lack of bloodshed and ample suffering. When they were show, it gave the character's both vulnerability and suffering while leaving room open for true perseverance over an obstacle even in the face of certain death.
The biggest irony is that while now there are world-ending threats and super powerfull beings, there is less bloodshed. Where super powerfull god like entitied appear blodshed and suffering is vound to happen. But nope😒😒😒
And specifically how, in the manga Toriyama used serious injuries specifically to build tension and move along the plot. (Tien's arm being ripped off means he will bleed out soon. Gohan's arm being broken makes him still soldiering on to beat Cell a lot more tense, etc.) The movies and Super don't have as much violence because there are no plot points involving character injury.
I loved it when Mark went “it’s Marking time” then proceeded to Mark on Dragon Ball. Truly a critic of our time.
I don't know you, but I love you lol
@@minedantaken1684 me too
I feel like the real turning point was the Buu saga. It was the point where a lot of the progress of previous arcs was undermined and the story started entering a cosmic scale. Not just that, it firmly established that anyone who wasn't a Saiyan was irrelevant. Super has been a continuation of that storytelling for better or worse. Dragon Ball's established storytelling died when Cell died.
It was supposed to end at the cell saga for a reason
This.
Pretty sure it was cosmic when cell said he would wipe out the solar system but ok
It also had a definitive timeskip and lost the momentum of the story. Nothing about the story would have changed much if Goku were still alive during and after the timeskip, and nothing else really builds off of the previous arc in a major way. Sound familiar? That's the structure of modern Dragon Ball.
I agree. The best thing we got out of the Buu saga was Mr Satan’s relationship with Fat Buu. Them meeting still gets laughs from me till this day
Totally nailed it! Modern Dragon Ball lacks the sense of GRAVITAS, TENSION, and DANGER that was present in Z especially. The events and fights meant something. The characters literally fighting for their lives and the lives of those around them. The realization they have that if they lose this, If they don’t defeat this enemy…everyone is dead. That gave such a weight to Dragon Ball that made it the battle shonen that all others are measured against.
The Z fighters were the defenders of Earth and, for all the humor that could be found in the series when it came down to it, all of them took that shit serious. All of them had a killer instinct that was fire to see.
Add to that the dumbing down of Goku to almost ridiculous levels and we’re left with a Dragon Ball that just feels like it’s missing something.
Dragon Ball Z on the Toonami block in the 90s is what introduced me to anime. I love this series and it’ll always have a special place in my heart. Hopefully it can get back to what made it so great narrative wise.
I enjoyed how they were forced to use every form of strategy they had to defeat enemies and were driven into corners as the stakes were just so high. I'm so sad this element of Dragon Ball is now gone :(
You explained this perfectly 💯💯 Super just doesn’t capture that essence that Dbz had
Did the potential for universe ending chaos not feel urgent enough to you with Zamasu/Black and Tournament of Power? The stakes certainly were different than from the days of Z, but still seemed high to me, thus pushing along a usually powerful drama dynamic.
@@Gumby518 there wasnt a single moment i thought they were in danger during the zamasu arc or any arc tbh. not a single character died and blood was almost nonexisted.
@@rocklee33221 I hear that. It doesn't help the tension when the franchises main mechanic is a reset button. I guess we viewed it differently.
I'd say Dragon Ball "died" on March 30th, 2013. The day Battle of Gods was released and began Goku's character assasination.
His character was assassinated long before then.
@@jarosbodytko6462 nah this was some next level shit.
amen to that.
What about Yo Son Goku and his Friends Return? That came out before BoG.
I would say it died when they went from GT to LGBT, now goku identifies as god..
This shows that you are a TRUE fan of Dragon Ball. True fans don't say how everything in a series is amazing, but acknowledge what's good and bad about a series
ikr. why saying it's good while we obviously know it's bad
People who says that don't know how Dragon Ball used to be and how different feels now, they only know how it is currently and how praised it is as a series and after they watch it, they think: "woah, so that's why it's so known", but true fans understand how this series has fallen
Wow. I think that comment might be one of the most confident, unrepentant expressions of *an actual, blatant No True Scotsman fallacy* I have ever seen.
He acknowledges only after his channel almost died because of toei. He s a spineless youtuber
@@virtueofabsolution7641 is that a compliment or an insult?
Great video and I agree wholeheartedly, Toriyama's brand of frantic, kinetic storytelling is why I love Dragon Ball so much and this video made me realize the specifics of why I don't care for modern DB, it just doesn't have that.
I wanted more of Gohan’s school antics, and I hate how everyone refused to let Toriyama explore it more. I love tomboys, and I would have loved to get more Videl.
To me, the Day Dragon Ball Died was when Goku said he’d come back for 24 hours. It felt editorial and intrusive, and it felt like there was simply no more passion in Dragon Ball. There was still heart, but it was clear Toriyama was no longer passionate for the story he had to (or felt forced) to tell.
I believe the highschool superhero arc with Gohan was the right decision for both tonal and power creep reasons, as we can see in the Buu Saga, struggling to make itself raise the stakes more and more and be serious.
Really DBZ should have ended with cell and a new series should have started with Gohan's superhero arc (could have called it dragon ball: the next generation) similarly to how between db and z the tone shifts from comedy with bursts of action to more dramatic, with focus on action, this new series could be more slice of life with Gohan basically taking up Goku's mantle in his own way as a superhero, perhaps the series could still have Majin Buu but save him until the last arc or something like that.
@@genebowa2621 Agree 100%!
@@genebowa2621 it's kinda funny that you say this. Thinking about it, dragonball solves what i thought didn't work for me in boruto, for instance. That series kinda relied on the old characters to try and anchor the viewer to the next generations. Felt super stiff, somewhat manipulative. All because naruto ended before the next generation was born, and boruto as a series was stuck between having to be its own thing, and at the same time having to carry a transition period. It felt like the series didn't know what it was supposed to be, and it never did quite manage to let go of the previous generation
But dragonball completely solves this by having the entire Z series being a transition point. We have plenty of time to get to know and get attached to gohan before having to give up on goku and the rest of the crew. There's never a jarring rupture, gohan gets to be given protagonism gradually over the sagas, culminating with him defeating cell alongside goku, and it all feels like a very natural progression to him being eventually left to have his own story
its a shame, a dragon ball: next gen would have been really cool. As a character gohan only gets flack for being underwhelming because up to the cell saga he was really cool, and then got left out afterwards
No one cares about nerd gohan, and especially videl.
The things that "killed dragon ball" for me are:
1- There is no more adventure of gathering the freaking dragon balls and they're almost not important at all with Bulma wishing for vain things. Summoning Shenlong was an awesome moment and it had big stakes with people not being able to revive twice.
2. Goku teleportation skill killed the adventure of traveling to places
3. As they can use the DragonBalls whenever, there are no stakes in dying (and no one dies anymore)
Instant Transmission was originally meant to teleport in sight range , but now it's throughout the entire universe .
@@burgezdoestuff8578nope it was very much established that goku used instant transmission to get to earth from his spaceship
I truly feel sad after having watched this. This video made me realize a lot about how I feel about current dragon ball. Honestly I still really love and cherish it. I like a lot of the stuff we get like games, movies, and hopefully very soon the return of an anime, but now I truly feel the absence of toriyama's unique and wonderful touch. Again, like the video says, that's not to say what we have isn't good but just different. And for better or worse it makes me sad.
I also felt a bit sad.
I've long understood this, but it's still kinda sad to hear it like this...
Yea honestly at the end of the day everything changes into something good or bad and we can’t stop it. Take for example marvel. It isn’t what it used to be
@@dogelord673 yeah Marvel Died after Endgame
@@StevenJones851 basically marvel died when Tony did. Which is very ironic.
@@StevenJones851 LMAO they are in a rebuild phase, i don't get what you lot don't understand about that
Bringing Freeza back full-time marked the biggest sign that things were changing, to me: Instead of separate arcs with their own villains, now he's a fixture, something DB's never had, and he feels like a Saturday Morning Cartoon bad guy, always shaking his fist and vowing to "Get those Saiyans NEXT TIME!!" Well, we'll see if the latest development with him goes somewhere interesting, but they should just kill him off for good now...
Yeah basically, plus Cell would have made the most sense for power-scaling reasons. He's literally part Saiyan
Pilaf was already supposed to be the Saturday morning cartoon style villain for the series but I guess they just keep forgetting about him until someone needs a plot device to bring forth a greater evil or mildly inconvenience the heroes in some way
Absolutely, just watch DBS Broly: he finds this super-strong sayian and brings him to earth hoping he will defeat Goku & co?
This sound like a Tom & Jerry plotline 🤦
And don't forget that Goku has no problem with releazing a maniacal dictator back into the galaxy so he can mass-genocide to his heart's content again. What a hero...
black frieza now
When I tried mentioning this to people, they kinda just chalked it up to me being a "hater". I'm glad someone like you had the ability to formulate your words way better than I ever could because THIS is exactly what I was at least trying to say but could never figure out how. Thank you.
I deal with the opposite. A lot of people who haven't even seen Kai or the Movies don't even want to entertain the fact that DB was once a great anime. They just chalk it up to lazy writing and macho screaming, which is the opposite of what the show was (tho the filler was annoying af). I try to tell haters how good the Freiza arc or Broly Movie were and they basically don't believe me. The kicker is that it's kinda true that DB has a lot of problems later on that tarnish it's reputation. It's honestly a really frustrating show to both defend and criticize.
@@digitalcamaro9708 Frieza Saga yes, Broly movie? Nah couldn't defend that as it was a generic "oh bad guy but not really" spin on a popular character that we have already seen and done much better within Dragonball
It's really dumb that people are so protective of successful series that they can't do anything but say "hater" if you dislike it. If I understand a series well enough to discuss it, any reasonable fan should be able to counter my criticisms with facts I either missed or forgotten or recognize that by the fact that I actually am trying to discuss the events of the series that I clearly like it enough to try and absorb what's happening. My not liking the current direction of Dragon Ball does nothing to harm Dragon Ball's success; it just means I'm falling out of love with the series.
@@UnifiedEntity I think he’s talking about the super one
@@kylerbrown3202 I know. I was still talking about the Dbs Broly movie. I prefer the DBZ one because it's not trying to do that. It's an evil super Saiyan being legit evil and I respect what they stuck to despite his upbringing. A tragic character though? If they took more notes from Wrath of the Dragons Tapion then maybe
Farewell akira toriyama...
You were the reason I have a number 1 favorite anime may you rest in peace you have created a nostalgic anime that will Last in everyone's hearts
Rip
When I hear the phrase 'this show is dead' I immediately think of the flash. That show went from something amazing that even tho it was a CW show, you could still enjoy yourself to guys with superspeed play with lightsabers
Fighting with purpose, that’s really what Dragon Ball lacks. Thanks for this Mark
Super was just made to make money
@@razkable Thats why I disagreed when someone posted that there will be no new season of dbs lol
Super is more like GT because it’s not canon and other things although Super is more closer to Z. Make a new season and/or series literally continuing from Z with no retconned and keep Super around and say it doesn’t continue from Z like it was said for GT.
@@constantinestambolitis321 what?
@@constantinestambolitis321 Super is canon, wot
What you say makes complete sense and for me I feel this aspect has been at its worse in the Goku Black arc and the Granola arc. Plot happening between the fights and random set pieces/events with little to know thought. Doesn't mean they weren't enjoyable. Just you can feel something is missing as you just watch it happen.
Disagree w the goku black arc while as a story it ain’t great goku black himself was a great villain and he’s the reason that ppl actually started to care about the super anime that arc didn’t have much good in it but goku black and zamasu were the only good things about it and it’s pretty clear they are cos they’re both so memorable. Granolah u could be right about but I think it depends on how ideas such as ultra ego etc are all used in the story moving forward
@@sanjaynambisan2538 oh sorry I'm not talking about the villians. I like Goku Black and zamasu. I think as characters their great. I'm more talking about how it narratively goes from SSJ rage, To Mafuba, To Vegito, To Sword of hope, to Zeno erasing everything with little to no reason or set up. The while some of them have a few breadcrumbs of set up most of that just happens and your watching like it's cool but the moment you think about most of it, you're left scratching your head about you know? Alot of that stuff though was still enjoyable on the surface but lacked any other enjoyment to find underneath, narrative wise. I still think Super has done a really good job with most of its villians
I think the manga did it just right by removing all the plot holes and making a good story that is different than the anime but to me moro's saga was peak super
The new db just doesn't have that rawness when they're fighting, it's not dirty no blood it all feels too glossy and bright i just don't feel that they are hurting each other 😅
@@addie275 You should read the moro saga then, toriyama is the one who made the plot for it btw, a bunch of planets are destroyed there with innocent people and alot of innocent people die to the villain including a major character its also pretty bloody too
Now this is the day Dragon Ball *died for real.*
Rest in Piece Akira Toriyama.
To me, the Day Dragon Ball Died was when Goku said he’d come back for 24 hours. It felt editorial and intrusive, and it felt like there was simply no more passion in Dragon Ball. There was still heart, but it was clear Toriyama was no longer passionate for the story he _had to_ (or felt _forced)_ to tell.
I believe the highschool superhero arc with Gohan was the right decision for both tonal and power creep reasons, as we can see in the Buu Saga, struggling to make itself raise the stakes more and more and be serious.
I'd find it Interesting if he was restricted from fighting unless Attacked.
This leaves things a bit more dire until then.
I wouldn't say that it was intrusive, especially since Goku coming back wasn't executed as an ass pull. I would say how the buu sage kept dragging on when it could've ended in 3 other fights was the bad part.
Yeah, I mean Gohan was going to become the main character in Z after Goku died. Nobody liked that because they preferred Goku. Whether Goku is better or not, maybe the story would have been better with Gohan.
Really DBZ should have ended with cell and a new series should have started with Gohan's superhero arc (could have called it dragon ball: the next generation) similarly to how between db and z the tone shifts from comedy with bursts of action to more dramatic, with focus on action, this new series could be more slice of life with Gohan basically taking up Goku's mantle in his own way as a superhero, perhaps the series could still have Majin Buu but save him until the last arc or something like that.
Let’s gooo someone else sees it’s Toriyama!
For me it’s when Goku returned in the Buu arc. That was the point where it felt like the series couldn’t grow anymore and got stuck repeating the same character arcs going forward.
To a degree I was already feeling this with the heart medicine sidelining during the Androids, but most of the complaints about the feel of the modern action applies to the Buu arc for me as well.
I agree. The buu saga was hyping up the next generation to pick up where Goku left off. But in the end, they all fail and Goku has to pull a "if you want something done right, do it yourself". I think it would've been great for Gohan and Gotenks to defeat buu together. Have Gotenks ALMOST get the job done but just fall short because they're still kids and need to grow a lot (kinda what happened). Then Gohan picks up the pieces as a young talent but still a veteran fighter too.
Goku's the main character what did you expect
Yeah, and the thing is, the series did a lot to elevate Gohan from the Cell arc all the way through most of the Buu arc. Goku could have come back and been a supporting character, but as you said, it retreated into repetition. The same series that switched tones from gag comedy to action comedy to action drama(+sci-fi) looked at the opportunity to switch gears again and said "nah I'm good".
I agree with you. Goku should have died in Namek explosion as the only Super Saiyan and leave Gohan to be the MC.
How can a simple Android be stronger than Frieza the ruler of the universe?
@@LonerWarrior that's true. Gero only had data on Goku up to his fight with Vegeta. Then based on that, he creates androids as strong as a super saiyan. As far as he was aware, that's overkill.
Gohan telling Videl to cut her hair was fucking criminal.
Agreed, her hair looked so much better before
@@ncrveteranranger4454 the animators got annoyed with animating it.
Filtered. The short haircut looks better, and fits her tomboy personality a lot better.
@@ThelronFjordbut guys like pig tails. New haircut makes her look like a guy
when fighting, you would want to have short hair :3 unrelated to appearance.
I think for me the moment where I "dropped off" and felt like it wasn't the same anymore was the Buu saga (I still watched it all obviously). The Cell saga felt like the ultimate conclusion of Goku's story and past catching up with him (Dr. Gero, Red Ribbon Army, Cell) and Gohan's potential finally awakened to defeat the world ending calamity. I think while certain moments from the Buu saga were really REALLY good, as a whole it felt like it was made with a sigh rather than a smile.
If you ask me not a fan of dragon ball, it should have end there, dragon ball as aholl
Agreed, I will always die on the hill that DBZ would’ve been a perfect 10/10 had it ended after the Cell saga. The whole Buu saga afterwards just felt like Tori doing a victory lap to introduce more characters and transformations for the sake of $$$. More merchandise from toys and new characters for video games.
Same. For me, after the Cell saga is where i really feel the show changes. It feels like everythign after Cell is more like a oneshot story that they thought up on the fly, rather then something that had been planned and worked towards.
I still enjoy the show after that point, but its post Cell where my opinions changes from "This is a brilliant anime you should absolutely watch" to "Its a fun anime I enjoy watching."
for sure Cell saga is peak Dragon Ball and should have concluded the series
Ending it with the Cell Saga would have been a problem because Vegeta's character development didn't come to a conclusion yet.
The same way ending it with the freeza saga would have left Gohan's character development hanging.
As lamentable as Dragon Balls action writings decline is… This is going to be a REALLY helpful video to reference for my own writing later. Thank you Mark!
That makes a lot of sense, I remember getting such an intense feeling during the Buu fight endgame and I can't quite describe it.
Probably because Kidd buu actually felt like a genuine threat. He frame 1 blew up the earth and then came to heaven basically to fight them. There haven't been stakes like that since then. The biggest arc in the TOP didn't have any cause you already knew U7 wasn't gonna be erased so that just killed the whole thing
It did kinda feel like the whole arc was one big fight and the tensions were all time high near the end
This is such an interesting take. I’d argue that post-ToP, Toyotaro has begun taking this same approach, establishing a narrative storyline throughout the fight. I just genuinely don’t believe he’s as good at it as Toriyama.
Edit: To clarify for some of the responses, I don’t think Toyotaro is a bad mangaka. As Mark said, he has a style that is distinctly represented in DBS. The Moro arc, for instance, was REALLY good at demonstrating this. It’s not the same style as DBZ, but I would honestly put most of it up there with high points of the Buu saga, for instance. I just don’t believe he’s as good at balancing Toriyama’s storytelling style with a battle raging on.
You have no grounds to say that Toyotaro is worse than Toriyama. What you have to consider is that Toriyama has ultimate control of the story boards. Toyotaro mainly just puts plot points together. The truth that people don't want to except is that DBS's writing isn't as good because of *Toriyama* . He's surrounded by a bunch of "yes men". He doesn't have a stern editor rejecting his ideas and pushing him to do better things, like in the original run. So he puts out weak content and there isn't much Toyotaro can do with his creative freedom to "save" the arcs. But as a coping mechanism, you people keep blaming Toyotaro.
@@TonyMishima92 Toyotarou is writing the story right now.
@@Xeno574 He's not. He has *never* been the main author. He has made this clear in several interviews. Toriyama creates the plot outlines with Toyotaro contributing some ideas. Toyo connects the plot points in the manga, then Tori supervises every manga chapter, constantly giving approvals and rejections. Toyotaro has gone on record saying that Toriyama depresses him with rejections he gets.
@@TonyMishima92 You're assuming wayyy too much about this guy based on a simple opinion. Like, who is "you people" anyway? Seems like you're lumping him in with a much worse group for no reason.
Though I do somewhat agree with your point.
@@N.N01 On his comment, he clearly blamed DBS's weaker narrative on Toyotaro, even though the evidence clearly suggests that it's not his fault. So I think what I did was mostly fair. I didn't have to be as confrontational, but I'm SO fed up with people acting everything is Toyotaro's fault when he's not even the main author. Even the biggest DB youtubers consistently get this wrong. No one but me is speaking the truth here.
If I may add something. One of the things I enjoyed in DBZ was that you could reasonably keep track (at least roughly after scouters were not a thing anymore), of the power level of each character. You knew beforehand how much each transformation/technique powered up each character and, moreover, you could use your knowledge to predict the outcome of a fight. It helped building up tension and anticipation. After Z literally nothing makes sense anymore. Z team struggles against basic frieza soldier apparently. A character can fight the same way against base form and SSJB goku in a few scenes. "I just powered up 10 times with this technique" but the fight did not seem to notice at all, you know?
Let alone the fact that according to super logic, if mecha Frieza jogged 10 minutes before reaching earth he could have taken down perfect cell easily apparently.
And then Beerus says “you couldn’t have beaten Frieza like this” to post-Buu base form Goku. Wait, what?
Though to be fair, that’s not exclusive to Super. GT bugged the hell out of me every time characters didn’t even bother going Super Saiyan against an enemy they damn well knew needed it, or dropped back to base form and kept fighting like nothing changed, or a much lower power base form character lands a hit on a character SSJ4 was just struggling to even catch… hell, if Omega Shenron was that powerful, how is base form child Goku just tanking shots from him like he doesn’t even feel it after him and Vegeta just got completely manhandled in SSJ4? Because the spirit bomb needed to be protected, so reasons? The sanctity and logic of battle power went right out the window post-Z
@@DomDomPop @DomDomPop at least GT had the excuse of not having been written by toriyama😮💨
@@ilgaglioffo6715 I mean, in one sense that’s true, but in another sense, the Dragon Ball animes have always been a group effort, and especially the battle scenes were often left up to others anyway. The people who worked on GT obviously had access to all kinds of Z and OG DB footage that they used for reference and flashbacks, so really they should have known better.
For me the story is what's missing in the newer Dragon Ball. The Tournament of Power was really disappointing for me. I thought there was something interesting that's gonna happen with Zemo and the angels, or with the other gods of destruction. I was expecting some context or motivation to be revealed for this event but nope, it was really just a Royal Rumble. They're just parading these characters like a toy exhibit. Older Dragon Ball was more than just the fight.
@TomCruz54321 Agree 100% on the TOP. Great idea but terribly written. Here's a simple idea that would have made the tension more significant....The tournament is announced, but NOBODY is told that the universes are at stake. Goku still just thinks its a fun chance to fight "Strong guys". The Fighters are summoned to the Arena. Zeno erases all universes BEFORE the fight begins. The last fighter standing can still wish them back, BUT that's IF that fighter wants to. Then that makes the desperation to win much more real, and it makes the threat of Frieza wanting the wish for himself more serious.
Dragonball hit it's peak in the Android and Cell saga's and nothing has ever come close since then. It has the most beautiful story of Goku passing on the torch to Gohan and it was also one of the last times that I felt Goku came off as intelligent. The idea that he saw a power greater then himself in Gohan and sought to cultivate it so that he could be the savior the world needed rather then being the thickheaded battle horny character he becomes later on was great. That's not to say Goku didn't always like fighting and growing, but then later on he just comes off as an idiot where fighting is pretty much his top priority over everything else.
The introduction of the Gods and the concept of the multiverse could have been an amazing next chapter for Dragonball, but then they proceeded to shit on that storyline nearly immediately. What is the point of introducing literal "Capital G" Gods to the universe, only to have Goku attain near god ascending powers such a short time later. Like the introduction of the multiverse took Goku from being one of the strongest characters in existence, down to a small pea in a huge multiversal playground and then back to suddenly being right back at the top after the tournament of power. The idea that Goku unlocking UI put him firmly in the realm of godly powers and even beyond some of the other universes God's of destruction was so stupid. Toriyama and I guess by extension Toyotaro don't really know how to raise the stakes of the story except by contradicting themselves and just upping the ante for each subsequent villain.
Which was another reason why Cell was the best saga. Cell was literally the culmination of every villain they had ever fought, and Goku was emotionally intelligent enough to understand that he should let Gohan handle that, even going as far as to decline further training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. That's not really something present Goku even seems capable of doing.
yeah i really love Old Dragon Ball the Cell Saga feelt like the ending just feelt right and the writing was good buu saga had Vegeta developed but it could of been better
It's absolutely ridiculous that Goku didn't teleport back to Gohan. If he can sense King Kai who had a much weaker power level than any of the Z fighters, Goku should've teleported Cell to King Kai and instantly went back to Gohan.
You know, I always thought the Frieza saga was the perfect ending and Cell was kinda unnecessary, even if the story was great. but seeing your arguments actually changed my mind. The Cell saga really was the story where everything came together up to that point. I’m honestly mad at myself for never seeing it that way 😅 (Although to me Frieza is still the best villain, coming across as being actual evil where Cell just seemed arrogant)
@@jarosbodytko6462 Frieza was a better Written Villan Cell was just kinda Arrogant but his Arc is where Z should of ended
@@_vakas Goku should of definitely have done that
I feel like there's another very important point you missed.
Back when Dragon Ball was running on Shounen Jump, he was a very famous mangaka, but a mangaka nonetheless. Which means his work had to run through his editor first, that would reject weak plots and sometimes force change.
Remember that at the start Toriyama wanted 19 and 20 to be the main villains of the android arc and then 17 and 18. Cell was the third go at the main villain of the arc, and the perfect form was something the editor asked for (iirc when shown the second form he said "can't wait to see the next form" when tori was planning for that one to be it).
Nowadays I doubt that what Toriyama proposes is taken with that much criticism and it hurts the end product.
Wow. This is an incredibly powerful and valid point. Maybe the issue isn't that this is Toriyama's dragon ball but that now it IS.
@@Dedition It’s also silly to say “toriyama’s dragon ball” as if it was some carefully planned and clear vision that toriyama had. He was always a gag mangaka forced to add more and more action focus due to editorial and audience demand. It’s not like he wanted to focus on the fighting before, he never did, which is clear by the fact that he now writes everything BUT the action.
Ah yes, what I like to call "George Lucas Syndrome."
@@Dedition exactly. He was kept in check. Anything goes now. Imagine if 19 and 20 were the villains. Yikes.
@@TheWickedMessenger3 it's not that he didn't focus on the fighting before, it's that his natural writing style is fundamentally damaging when he's not the one drawing the scene.
Toriyama is really good at improvising fight scenes, he just makes a fight up while he draws it, so when asked to tell what to do and there's going to be a fight, he just says "and here they fight, X wins" since that's how he's used to work.
Dragon Ball is like the MCU and Star Wars today.
Corporate, soulless and not poorly made but not the series so many grew up with.
Agreed
MCU is still a bit better than that, if you ignore the bad movies. Pretty sad that you need to ignore that much to salvage a good opinion though.
@@spencerhansen2927 hell no. The mcu is way worse. Dbs and gt still retain db. The MCU is damn near garbage in every way
@@spencerhansen2927 MCU is literally woke now lmao. It's a lot worse.
This is why I stick with Star Wars Legends.
Sadly, today is the ACTUAL DAY dragon ball died. Rip akira toriyama, the goat.
The manga yes, not sure if the anime is going to continue
@@senpie6639 it likely will, but I’m not sure how far the manga will go without akira toriyama to be writing its story
Dragon Ball Super manga and story made by Toyotaru, currently on going. Akira Toriyama's story ended in Kid Buu saga.
@@Adolf_N1gger_20 yeah I know
March 1st Toriyama died
Ah, so this is why all of the new series/movies felt off to me when I watched them. I felt something was missing, but I couldn't put my finger on it until now. Thank you, Mark, it all makes sense now.
it feels like the Story's have no Weight anymore
I have loved DB throughout, but after the Saiyan Saga death was no longer really a thing because they had the Namek Dragonballs, and then Dende makes new Dragonballs that can wish people back multiple times. It took away any risk. I also missed the training aspect. I loved that the characters had to usually overcome some sort of obstacle to get stronger and that it was shown how they trained, but the later episodes skipped over that and had them practice off screen.
what does the title of the series called?
it's "Dragon ball"... and what does the dragon ball do? to " grant wishes "... and what does those wishes are?
to "resurrect"
and that's all.. i hope you get it lol
@@IsidroEstranghero poop
Shenron’s powers depends on the the powers of the Kami and he is the one who decides what can be wished for. But if I remember correctly king Yemma is the the one that decides what happens with each soul and Vegeta could not be revived with the dragon balls if could be wrong it’s been some time.
@@IsidroEstranghero wow way to miss the point completely. The original dragon could only bring back a person from death once, and the body had to be in good condition. So battles actually had consequences. When we get to Namek everyone can be revived forever and FOR ME PERSONALLY, that took away the drama because it didn't matter anymore if someone died or not.
Even before Z, death was becoming meaningless is DB since they start using the DBs to bring people back around the RRA saga.
The question isn’t “The Day That Dragon Ball Died”, but “When Was It Wished Back with the Dragon Balls”
Broly… or rather I think the Zamasu arc right? Didn’t it bring ALL the fans back?
Super is the equivalent to BioBroly. Brought back without any of the merits
@@NinthShinigami every movie launch, the launch of Super, and every new transformation has been a revival for Dragon Ball - it brought mainstream eyes every time it happened
@@sethrod13 thats funny lol, but the real benefit was keeping the ball rolling - “alive” so to speak, within the mainstream zeitgeist
@@sethrod13
Noo, Bio Broly is gt lvl of bad, not super. I ain't a DB wanker fanboy, but for real Bio Broly is the worst movie, and the worst thing that ever happened to DB.
The real day Dragon Ball died... March 7, 2024.
RIP Toriyama.
March 1st Toriyama died
As someone who grew up watching the original English dub of DBZ on Toonami, I totally agree with Mark. Dragon Ball has not been the same since, and never will be. That special flavor that was captured back then simply cannot be duplicated. RIP Dragon Ball.
i mean it can if toryama went back to the old ways of writing and being more involved but doesnt due to some reason and im ok with that ill just accept the series for what it is and can always watch the series how it was when im done with how it is now
Corporation is just more important to companies then good story telling
I think the first ssj transformation was so hard because it had the most sense , for it was a legend that became true.
I’m glad you brought up “the action”. I started watching the old Dragon Ball again and found the fights way more enjoyable. Super has its moments but it feels more like power ups and flash than actual martial arts. The last great action fight in Dragon Ball I can remember is Goku vs Cell.
unfortunately dragon ball doesnt feel like a story anymore but a product
You know, thinking about it I kinda feel like the Goku, Frieza, & 17 vs Jiren fight tells a lot of that emotional storytelling that's inherent in the original run. While still very much a product of it's time lacking direct involvement it does use it as a way to convey the feelings of trust while using the entire fight to have both Frieza and Jiren grow as characters through the conflict.
Yet oldhead z fans say it’s trash because there was no “blood and violence”💀
I think Battle of Gods (specifically the movie, less so the anime arc) actually hit a pretty good balance with this, considering it had to adhere to a particular runtime and act structure. The fight between Goku and Beerus, to me, feels like a conversation that happens to involve punching and ki blasts. Not as tightly plotted as anything in Toriyama's manga, of course, but you can definitely see character development happening on both sides through the duration of the fight.
That's probably cuz Toriyama was actually involved with the Battle of Gods movie, and less so with the anime or manga versions of it. It's also why Battle of Gods just excels compared to DB Super as a whole, either the anime or manga.
@@uknownada actually, toriyama had very little involvement with the battle of gods movie
@@winonajavier3944 Any sources for this? Im curious
I remember as a child waiting in the morning for an episode of Z to come up it’s what brought me into anime
I remember Goku going super saiyan against Frieza and and that was the most hype thing
I agree it does feel different now but I do love the franchise still I do hope when it actually comes to an end that it goes out with the loudest bang
What bothers me the most about any IP is when it starts devaluing its own concepts and worldbuilding. Like having Goten turn super saiyan for the first time as a gag to embarrass Gohan despite not going through nearly the same effort and pain to earn it. Or merely making the transformation a "back tingle" in Super. Not to mention Super made everyone look skinnier for some reason which is especially noticeable for Future Trunks who was the most bulked up out of everyone at the end of the Cell Saga.
Honestly super never was going to live up to db and z but the manga has really brought me back to my childhood. The manga still feels like the life blood of db. The moro arc was something that genuinely brought me back to my childhood. It was a great arc
Thank God Somebody said it
The granohla arc will be a better read when you can just read through the whole story. But the Moro arc is the best arc super has to offer. I hope the anime can come back one day.
@@jlopez240gaming7 best from?Cell Saga?Freeza Saga?Saiyan Saga?
best from other arc in Super?Goku Black arc was interesting
Great video. I never noticed it before, now it's pretty clear how the action is an afterthought narrative-wise, most notably in the movies.
The bit about Toryama just writing about a big action scene made me remember RWBY's Mounty Oum situation. If you don't know about it, I have a feeling you would greatly enjoy watching how Mounty Oum used to direct and animate action scenes expressing characters' personalities and propelling the narrative forward. Sadly, at one point he passed away, robbing us of a great person and changing drastically how action scenes would occur within the series.
I am legitimately happy you made this video and explained so clearly what I’ve struggled to convey to people.
I’m happy and grateful that the buu saga exists because it gave people like me a chance to say goodbye to the stories and characters I grew to love and enjoy. I can’t speak for everyone but for me, saying that is important and when we don’t say goodbye, we lose something important.
Why am I being recommended this now...of all times I've see it before why again NOW OF ALL TIMES
I’m saying
As a new fan to db (only been into the series for a year) i quite enjoy ALL of the content, not just the old stuff, but the new too.
edit: warning, some salt in the comments below. I respect your opinions as old fans but i think i shoudl be allowed to liek the current stuff too.
im an OG fan.. i do love the recent content, but i generally feel that theres too many transformations being done (yes, it includes UI and UE despite them being techniques).. it feels as though some transformations had been done useless like the SSJG, especially when blue came out
@@paulocuento9949 This is interesting that new fans are enjoying everything from DB, but old fans feels like the series isn't the same anymore. As someone who's also quite new (well almost 2 years in, i didn't grew up with it), i quite enjoy all the new stuff from DB. Ofc DBS isn't without it's many flaws.
@@bigenson18 I even liek the SDBH anime/manga, and DBS. so yeah sorry old fans i guess but i just enjoy it for what it is.
@@paulocuento9949 I wish they focused more on the actual core power of the saiyans rather than the whole god ki thing... or if they did want to merge in the god ki... and why for whatever reason... having 5 saiyans focus all their power into one would somehow create a god or whatever... maybe they could of really gone deeper with that concept and created a narative about it say... perhaps revealing that the origin of Saiyans were from actual gods? here's a little concept I came up with on the idea.
Before the race of Saiyan's ever existed... the name "Saiyan" Was actually the name held by a God. that God was the First God of Power... He had the appearance of a Great Ape... (Hense the Great Ape transformation in the Saiyan Race, it is in essence symbolic of their true form, the form of the person whom all Saiyan's originated from, The First God Of Power. )
His time as the "God Of Power" was slowly dwindling... as in his creation they had made a mistake... no body could contain the power that was held inside of him he was a ticking timebomb... the angels knew of his unfathomable power, but that power was too much for any... even a deity... it could not be sustain in his body...
His demise was inevitable... and so after his demise they would replace him with another powerful being... Saiyan knew his time was at an end but he did not wish to die... he wanted to stay the strongest and hold his position as the God Of Power as that is why he was created in the first place, it was his entire purpose of existing... his duty... but it was inevitable... his body could no longer continue... and so... he made a deal with an Angel... for them to help him one day return... reborn in a new body. so that he could reclaim his place as the God Of Power...
And so as his time came to an end... The Overwhelming Power could no longer be contained and he dissipated and vanished... like stardust... but all of the fragments of the power that he had held inside him still lingered... and from that lingering energy would each grow into beings of a new Race in the Universe... The Saiyans. Across each individual Saiyan held a very small amount of his Power... but there would one day be a Single Saiyan to hold the true potential of his power. for him to be reborn and his legacy live on... Reincarnated... that Saiyan would be none other than... Broly.... DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUN.
I mean... you get the idea... it doesn't feel half assed as much as the whole god transformation was originally done in super... it at least connects the Saiyans to the Gods in some way... it explains why the Saiyan's have so much potential, it explains why they have a great ape transformation... it goes deeper into explaining why beerus/whis may of been searching for this Legendary "Super Saiyan God" perhaps what they were truly searching for was Broly, the actual Reincarnation of Saiyan... but they could only sense Goku/Vegeta's power at the time as it was much higher than Broly had yet to show for. it would also Explain why Broly is so powerful in the first place... as he is literally... the actual Reincarnation of Saiyan... no different than what had happened with Kid Buu and Uub. I don't think my concept sounds too far fetched and In my opinion would deeply improve the story/concepts of dragon ball super.
@@bigenson18 I’m a relatively new fan as well, since 2018 and I feel that the weakest aspect of db is just the plot/storytelling but this is only for the Super manga. The writing for the Granolah/Gas arc has been just straight up terrible in my opinion. Nothing got me hyped or hooked and it feels stale
I still love Super Broly but I will never forget how tense I felt when I watched Goku vs Frieza in DBZ, Goku trying new strategies only for them to fail. Frieza seemingly being invincible and the catharsis of watching Super Sayian Goku not only defeat Frieza but also destroy his worldview.
100% agree. After so much of that fight being Goku desperately trying to just survive, not win, to have him turn into a Super Saiyan and basically pull a Reverse Uno Card on him was so satisfying on a level I can't describe.
Something that needs to be adressed, the whole point of the Buu Saga was to show that Goku needed to stop forcing the next generation to take his place as the main hero and learn how to work with others to defeat their opponents (which is repeatedly stated by the gods within this arc and all of Super), which is why the focus of the main character keeps changing to show that one individual warrior alone isnt enough to defeat Buu, which Goku doesnt realize until Vegeta finally tells him to use the Spirit Bomb. And this obsession with passing the mantle started when Trunks came back from the future and told Goku that he was going to die (along with the rest of Dragon Team).
And after Goku realizes this lesson you'll notice in the continuities following after Goku is more laid back but also working as a team more often (even Master Roshi who had previously passed the mantle down to Tien and Goku back in the day is now also fighting alongside his successors). This is also why we dont get such evil villains but instead antagonists who challenge Goku's ideologies, especially Jiren the Grey and Zamasu.
I don't know if you watch videos from other Dragon Ball content creators but if you can please watch The Strength of Son Goku by Seththeprogrammer as well Ultra Instinct vs Ultra Ego: Clash of Philosophy that Geekdom101 did with Jordan the Dragonlee to get a deeper understanding of Goku and Dragon Ball as a series because I feel there are things you heavily misunderstand about the series, definitely including Super.
This is very interesting. At the same time, I can see why this probably wouldn't appeal to some ppl
The buu saga was just a way to write how goku can get the spotlight back in the end. Toriyama needed Goku to come back to life somehow and then somehow end up the one winning the whole saga due to pressure from Japanese fans who only wanted goku and did not care about the others. Super is just an exaggerated and desperate version of what the buu saga was. Goku's IQ was reduced by 40 points to make it more comedic for the younger audiences super is catered to. Goku's character is now a days only "I like to fight strong guys for the heck of it" when it holds no meaning to it other than a selfish desire. The Tournament of Power should have been the perfect instance where goku is shown that there are consequences to this selfish desire goku wants. But what did super do? they did a 360 and said that it was goku who actually saved the universes cause Zeno was gonna destroy them anyways. Dragonball now a days is just trying to pump out new toys with all of these transformations that hold no meaning (other than UI). I think you're wrong my friend. Dragonball is dead, and I think the biggest contributor to that was a creators carelessness or exhaustion to the series.
@@boltskyline2957 Toriyama was not pressured by anyone into "bringing Goku back into the spotlight" that rumor is just as false as people saying Dragon Ball was supposed to end at Frieza or Cell, rumors started by people who have bad understanding of Dragon Ball and its characters then get upset that it doesnt follow your headcanon. And Goku was not "ruined" by Super (same goes for the rest of the cast) but as a stated before you and other people have made your own interpretation of the character and now say he's a bad character when in reality you never actually understood him or the show overall. And the transformations are not meaningless, theyre all tied to different chakras and have buddist roots also everything in media sells toys thats not exclusive to modern Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is not dead and is more alive than ever before stop being so blinded by nostalgia
@@toddstone230 Yeah honestly a lot of people only understand Dragon Ball on a surface level. They misinterpret too many things and dont realize how much deeper the series actually is
@@Far2Sega4U Toriyama was indeed pressured to bring Goku back during the buu saga as you saw he had the freedom to start the buu saga with Gohan, then somewhere along the line it is pretty clear he had to scrap any ideas that involve any of the children getting a spotlight as he attempted it with Gohan and with gotenks only to then come back around to goku. Every chapter toriyama wrote prior to the buu saga tournament, indicated Goku's time as a hero is coming to a close with his villans becoming more intense and goku realizing that it may be safer for earth if he stayed gone, and Gohan surpassing goku all indicated goku was going to pass off the mantle to someone else, either from the Japanese audience, or his editor, there was an obvious pressure to keep Goku alive that wasn't toriyamas own doing. You just say that goku was not ruined by super but fail to elaborate why. You can give a comparison to the forms in super to tradition to give them some sense of value, but you can't deny that they never have (aside from UI) made the impact or had the build up story wise like the original super saiyan. During the life span of the ssj1 form, from goku on namek all the way till Gohan with ssj2, super would have already had 5 forms in the same time span. Dragonball is dead in terms of story. People that HYPEEEEEE over a new form and giving their money to Toei brainlessly isn't a way to measure a successful story.
This video title aged poorly.
Rest in peace Akira Toriyama. You gave us all so much.
Man, this was such a spot-on analysis. I still love the franchise and enjoy both the manga and anime. But it hasn’t been the same since the conclusion of the Buu arc when the original manga material ended. I remember how disappointed I was during the original US broadcast to see how much GT had departed from the feel of Z. I was even excited for GT before it aired. I thought that the story shifting to a more Dragon Ball like adventure story would have been refreshing as opposed to the epic battles in Z, but the soul of the story was just gone. I actually do enjoy the manga material, and there have been some apostles of the anime that catch a little bit of that old spark I had as a teenager recording the Cell saga to watch after school, but it isn’t and can’t be the same. Even if Toryama were to wish on the Dragon Balls to be back in his prime and take over the story completely, I have to face the fact that I’m older and watch the story through different eyes than I did over two decades ago. Doesn’t mean the new stuff is bad or that I’ve somehow outgrown my enjoyment of the franchise, but both DB and I are different now. I’m ok with that.
I don’t know. I feel like if you watched the Cell Saga know you’d notice how lackluster and random it was
@@pn2294 there aren’t any fences here, so stop trying to keep the gates. I enjoyed the Cell saga when I was in high school, you apparently don’t. I don’t care if you don’t since that’s your preference, but turning your nose up doesn’t make you cool.
@@pn2294 Fair
it's today that dragon ball died
rest in peace Akira Toriyama 🙏🏻🕊️
Totally agree with this video. The Buu arc was the weakest in Z but it had some really important moments that contributed to the overall story and rounded off Vegeta's character/story. His acceptance of Goku being better than him and him being content with it was a really nice and great moment. Everything that came out after Z always felt off, it lacked heart.
Buu saga is 100% better than Android saga,and debatably better than cell arc to me aswell.freiza saga is God tier tho.
Actually a lot of people believe buu arc is the best of z
hot take; i actually liked gt
@@buprerevengeance I liked certain things in gt.i honestly felt DragonBall should have been about adult goten and trunks after Z.
Saiyan, Frieza and Cell arcs are the best out of Z in my opinion. Gohan's high-school story, SSJ3 and the fusion being the only highlights of the Buu arc for me. Other than that it just falls in the similar tropes that the cell saga did. Earth's in danger, a villain that absorbs people and transforms becoming stronger. Only difference is that Goku saves the day in the end.
Today is the day dragon ball truly died 😞
Rip Akira toriyama. The childhoods of millions of kids.
March 1st
March 1st Toriyama died
@@Sparks_350gt it got announced like 3-4h ago though
@@daxiatothemaxia4225but it truly died the day he died we just wasn’t awared so it wouldn’t make sense
This made me realise why I haven’t found most of dbs that interesting. Even in other animes/manga sometimes I just want the fighting to end let there be some plot development, but at least usually the plot develops as the fighting goes on, while in dbs you just have to wait till the end
I'm sorry Mark. You miss the time by 1 and a half years. Today, is the day Dragon Ball dies.
March 1st Toriyama died
@@Sparks_350gt alright my bad. But close enough. And the timing difference of a year and a half is still there. Thanks for the correction though.
@@nickrussell8279you’re welcome
When I heard you say the action doesn't feel the same something inside me just died. You voiced out what I've been feeling for years. Cheers mate! 🍻🍻🍻
Dbs manga is more violent than z
When they hit eachother now it sounds like boots squeaking, they feel too clean, in the old ones there was this sweaty white knuckles rawness that took your breath as much as they were losing theirs
Today is the day when dragon ball truly died 😔 R.I.P Akira toriyama
It actually died on march 1st 2024 when he died
@@Sparks_350gt yea but it died for us fans today 😔
It's not dead shut up its something that should leave on not dead
@@user-ee5ee2db3r I don't think anyone can come up with better ideas than him 🙂
@@xtreme-gaming don't get me wrong I'm sad I even cried but this world is full of surprises what u said just now is not true he still have people that he believes him that's why I said that dragon ball is not dead if u were a fan u wouldn't say what u just said
Holy shit I’m early too. Sup y’all. Random take:
Goku is a great dad by saiyan standards if nothing else. Suck my facts.
Well, least he cares.
I’ve always been a big fan of the less serious, more laid back moments in Dragon Ball, like Gohan and Videl training together, or the big journeys the characters went on. I still do enjoy the fights, and this explains why I prefer a lot of the fights in Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z compared to the stuff after them
Also, random side note, does anyone know the music used at the end of the video? It’s used at the end of a lot of Totally Not Mark videos, but I’ve never known what the song is called
I prefer the fights it is after all a shonen and Toriyama does this well.
the song is this one: music.ruclips.net/video/vf2ajEF-suE/видео.html&feature=share
The one the dude before me is a cover, here is the original song ruclips.net/video/dQw4w9WgXcQ/видео.html
@@TyTeaStrings goddammit
The comedy filler and fun of dbz is always kinda forgotten it feels like...its not that serious of a story
You take the words from my mouth, thank you. The original run of dragon ball is just on a level of its own.
March 1 2024 was the day Dragon Ball as we know die. Rest in peace Toriyama
You hit the nail on the head. I was wondering why the fight in Super Broly felt like it was kinda dragging on for me. It's still an amazing battle. But the story before it was a lot more interesting to me.
I grew up with Dragon Ball, just like you all but it was mostly through Kai and the Z movies (which were still transmitted through Cartoon Network in my country before, the shit happened). And honestly, its been such a ride.
I've watched various animes which I know are objectively better than Dragon Ball in terms of being a shonen. (HxH, og Naruto, One Piece, hell, even Bleach were better shonen in terms of story, and in terms of battle, Bleach was on another level, and HxH too) None of them ever came close for me than Dragon Ball though. Idc if its nostalgia carried, I still heavily enjoy the story, heavily enjoy the characters, and seeing a new transformation every saga or so will never get old. Even if I like other anime now, Dragon Ball will never stop being my favorite anime of all time. Call me a shit taste person, but I think we all agree that Dragon Ball will forever hit different, Like Pokemon too. Its just too emblematic to die off like that.
That’s just your opinion anyone calling you a 💩 taste person can F off. (Appreciate the Bleach love too 🙌🙌🙌)
Thank you for specifying OG Naruto and not Shippuden, that tells me you know where the true value of a shounen lies.
@@SuperSaiyan3985 I know there are a bunch of people who think that Dragon Ball as a whole is just having shit taste. Not taking into account the Masterpiece that are the Sayian and Frieza sagas of Z or og Dragon Ball.
@@tarz1109 Even if I enjoyed watching shippuden, og Naruto is where it all was a masterpiece. Later on kishimoto wanted to make it about aliens and samurais and that wasn't good. Boruto is the result of a broken story not wanted to be fixed by a supposedly and proven talented author.
Its like Kishimoto doesn't care anymore with Boruto.
I grew up with DB too but once I got my hands on the other shows you mention, it felt lackluster to me. Still cool and all but a bit outdated.
For me, it was because in other shows, more characters got major spotlight and their time to shine instead of just the ONE (usually Goku) beating the big bad in the end while the rest of the cast stared in awe offering minimal (to zero) help.
After Mark embarked on his journey to read One Piece and other stories I knew this day would come. I also love how Mark says he isn't gonna say dragon balls new style is worse but then proceeds to outline his points as such lmao.
it was inevitable
Just because One Piece is better than DB it doesn't make OP a good manga at all, DB is at best a 2/10 manga anyways, so OP should only be like 5/10.. OP is so boring man, i tried reading it, and when tf does it get hype??! im already 120 chapters in... I like berserk more..
It all peaked at the Freeza Saga. Super is just flashy lights, member berries and souless punches. I love how you put it as a "walking corpse." That is precisely what it is.
DBZ officially died this year. RIP Akira Toriyama
I love dragon ball's storytelling so much. I actually employ a lot of that classic dragon ball "Dramatic fighting" in my writing. It's defo harder than just saying "fight happens" it's always about Who is fighting, why they are fighting, what they are fighting for, and what winning the fight will cause.
For anyone out there that wants to write or become a writer. PLEASE study and learn from amazing works like dragon ball.
Writing is tough, but incredibly rewarding when everything you've set up comes together. Good luck y'all!
Oh and yet another fantastic video from totally not mark!!
In terms of the manga, as much as I love Toyotaro’s art style and think he’s improved tremendously, I think they need to find some one else for the storytelling aspect, Toyotaro started the Moro and Granolah arcs string but he doesn’t know how to exactly end the arcs off strong and with Toriyama only leaving bare boned notes for him to go off of, I think he needs a partner to help him flesh out the story aspect of Toriyama’s notes so that we can get both perfect artwork along with a perfect story, same could apply for Toei with the anime part of the series
Both arcs ended perfectly
Especially the granolah arc I’m sure you’ve seen the ending by now but never saw it coming
@@leultrainstinct406 no granolah should be the one who killed the main villain ( not gus , talking bout elec ) and that Moro arc ended horribly with another cell moment
@@leultrainstinct406 yeah of course no one saw it coming but the problem is that the arc lost focus halfway thru. It’s called The Granolah arc but yet Frieza is the one to ultimately kill the villain that neither Granolah, Goku, and Vegeta could beat and Frieza did it in one shot. He literally just showed up and did a cleanup of the mess of what was the Granolah arc. There was so much mentioned in this arc that ultimately led to nothing like the Bardock thing, there was no point of that because ultimately Goku didn’t beat Gas in the end. It’s as if Toyotaro forgets what he established in previous chapters and couldn’t focus on one plot point for this arc
@@leultrainstinct406 Just because ending was so bullshit noone saw it coming, doesn't make it any good. Granolah shortened his life for nothing. Black Frieza conveniently training in other dimension when Elec was making wish 1h ago, and coming back right after it is fanfic level bullshit. Frieza also had no reason to leave Goku and Vegeta alive, given he can kill them now effortlessly. The only cool concept (storywise) was a wish becoming a curse. It would be great if Toyotaro actually built the plot around this idea.
Completely agree. The Moro and Granolah arcs started well for me, and they got me hooked quick. But by the last fourth of the arc everything wraps up quickly and with new shit that had nothing to do with the rest of the arc (Moro becoming "Perfect Cell" 2 and Avatar Goku, alongside the new UI Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta transformations just amounting to nothing and Black Freeza coming to beat the main villain), to the point that I consider dropping the manga altogether.
I completely agree. The drama, storyline, and the stakes of the fights is what made DBZ so amazing back in the day. The characters had real consequences.
Up to a point. Then DBZ became too repetitive.
@@AspiePilo82and you’re saying super isn’t ?
Z wasn’t really repetitive at all until the end of the buu saga
The first half of Z was a flowing storyline
The cell saga also made sense as the villain didn’t just come out of nowhere
And the buu saga was random but all 4 arcs had the overarching theme of gohans growth and the cell saga was meant to represent him becoming earths protector and the buu saga was meant to be character development for him to warn him to keep training
Gohan should’ve beaten super buu that was the ending toriyama had envisioned but then he changed his mind and decided to mess up the entire arc and gohans character arc so goku could become the protagonist
He practically made gohans story useless
Spongebob Squarepants is DEFINITELY another show that is highly relatable to this video
Just watched a vid from a year ago, and this man has gotten even more imaginative and somehow became better quality content creator than he already was. Completely astounding
Now today is the day dragon ball 'died' RIP Akira Toriyama you will be remembered😢😢😢
I noticed that during the Z era of dragon ball, there were two very important narrative structures present in every arc, something which one piece also borrowed during its pre-time skip run:
1. The removal of the main character/support characters from the main action of the story.
2. A time limit.
Examples are when Goku was rushing from King Kai’s planet to earth to save Gohan and his friends, or when Luffy was tossed in the pool in Arlong park and his friends had to save him before he drowned. These examples fulfilled the above conditions of both taking the main character away from the fight and also imposed a time restriction for tension. The narrative was not as good after the buu arc, as Totally Not Mark said, because of the absence of these two plot structures. For me, personally, One Piece is not as good as it once was after the time skip (it’s still good, so don’t kill me), but like Dragon Ball, it abandoned the above narratives. So I think if Dragon ball is to become what it used to be, it has to bring back the above. That’s my 2 cents.
I feel what you’re saying. With Frieza and Cell they made it an emphasis to try to keep Goku out as long as possible until he fought them in they final form. With the Frieza saga it was mostly everyone Gohan Vegeta Krillin and Piccolos took up most of all the fights. Goku got in the middle with Ginyu but was still taken out of commission in order to give the supporting characters some importance until Goku was able to face Frieza in his final form. Then there’s the Cell saga which I feel is the best saga. They did the greatest job in having everyone serve a purpose with Goku either out due to sickness or training. And what it did was not only hype Goku for that final fight against Cell but also Gohan since he hadn’t did any fighting to that point. Those details seemed small when I was a kid, but now I can appreciate it
@@dominiquerobinson8888 Thanks, mate. Yeah, you hit the nail on the head as to what I was getting at. It’s quite interesting that they pretty much gave Gohan all the ‘main character’ traits with Goku out of the picture. The learning with Ki, taken out of his comfort zone etc, kinda like when All Might comes to save Midoriya, but Midoriya was the one going through all the crap first. And their roles were reversed in My Hero Academia. Then they put Gohan on full blast in the Cell arc finale, which was amazing. Can’t wait for that new movie.
I remember when Dragon Ball Super was about to premiere. My wife asked me, "what more could they possibly do? I mean, how much stronger could Goku possibly get? He was already crazy strong at the end of Dragon Ball Z and now he's a god. What could they possibly make a whole series out of?"
I told her that there's always something more. There's always a new level, a new challenge, a new obstacle. There's always something new to learn, something more to experience, and that's what Dragon Ball is all about. There's always something higher.