Did Joseph Smith use a Seer Stone to translate the Book of Mormon?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 15 июл 2024
- We discuss why it is critical to understand Joseph Smith's use of a seer stone and a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith is the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the author of the Book of Mormon.
Subscribe and leave your comments down below 👇
__________
Joseph Smith Digital Painting with stone and hat: www.knowbrotherjoseph.com/
Follow us on Facebook: bit.ly/2Zzk9Tn
Visit our page: bit.ly/2GXTsRL
Please consider a donation: bit.ly/33nk7Pm
All donations are fully tax deductible
__________
Resources:
CES letter: bit.ly/33nkzx2
Truth Claims: bit.ly/35zTFVE
Mormon Think: bit.ly/2FrxXYX
LDS Discussions/Gospel Topic Essays Expanded: bit.ly/3kdH5iH
Official LDS Gospel Topic Essays: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/s...
Letter for My Wife: bit.ly/35zw9rO
Faith Crisis Resources:
Mormon Faith Crisis: bit.ly/2ZyIBEk
Books:
Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet by Dan Vogel: bit.ly/3cd7Tgp
No Man Knows my History: The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn McKay Brodie: amzn.to/3hMEDy6
Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman: bit.ly/2FQ4nwc
Related Podcasts:
Radio Free Mormon: bit.ly/2RkgfJk
Mormon Discussions: bit.ly/3keanxB
Thoughts on things and Stuff: bit.ly/3mmLzpb
I hate slippery treasure.
😂😂
Oh come on now Joey. You still got paid--Didn't ya?
I know, every time!!!
Lol Joe.. like Nancy Rigden?
@Richard Van Riper It's not worth it.
I graduated from both Seminary and Institute, went on a mission, had Sunday School classes for years and was surprised to learn how the BOM had really been translated from South Park.
Have you researched all the other historical claims as well and origin of the religion? Not to be judgmental but your name sounds South America, are you not in the United States?
I attended the Father, Son and Holy Ghost of LDS church colleges. Ricks, BYU, and BYU Hawaii. Took religious courses every semester. Not one word of a peep stone, nay, not even a pebble, nor a grain of sand. Nope, nada, zilch.
@@ZDD760 who was the BYU student and when was the comparison made?
I learned about in institute one time. Teacher didn't think it was weird at all but he was kind of an odd fellow himself lol. I think it's funny how the Joseph Smith movies make the events look so different from what actually happened. They just failed to mention half of the events in church history plus Joseph's face in a hat.
At BYUI I had one professor that talked about this stuff. He was cool 😎
Exactly. They’re coming clean now because they have to.
I love the format. Just the right mix of facts and snark.
@@ferrellfamily742 cultists are going to defend the cult...
@@ferrellfamily742If you truly desire to find truth you must seek it yourself. If you only seek references merely to critique then you'll learn nothing.
The entire internet is at your disposal... I suggest you use it.
@@ferrellfamily742 Please see Steven Hassan's BITE Model. Mormonism meets the criteria to be called a cult.
@@ferrellfamily742 No I understand it very well, and you do too. Its a cult. Not playing games with dishonest Mormon apologists. Sorry.
@@ferrellfamily742 Mormons aren't weird because every religion (and even non religon) is a cult. Mormons LOL.
The cuts in this were well timed and funny. I can see your style developing in these and I'm LIKING it!!
I second this!
Love it!!! Pure gold!!
I love the splicing. For people with ADD like myself it is easier for me to keep my attention. It also shortens the length of the video.
'uh oh, the internet is coming!!'
Lol
Hahaha. But it's just satan and you can't view anything NOT approved by the church, so it's ok nothing to see here!
When my mom and I left the church over 26 years ago, when I was only 14, I never looked into the validity of anything. Now, later in my adult years, it fascinates me. Your South Park reference cracked me up lol! I totally remember thinking that too! Brilliant work! Thanks for what you do!
Later church publications referred to "treasure digging" as "mining".
Can you provide examples, dates, or publications? Was this in the improvement Era?
Best line: why don’t the prophets seers and revelators use their peep stones for revelations??? ... uh oh... the internet is coming!!!! -- Lol... absolutely brilliant work John! Love it!
@@ferrellfamily742Dr. Delin is quoting facts from records of church history. Surely you must be aware of the peepstone in a hat story that the church has been forced to accept?. What we were taught was Smith "translated the gold plates by the power of God ", and we were shown the false illustrations of him translating. Like you we were NEVER taught about the peepstone in a hat story.
Thus.. we all lived a lie..you included.
You cannot receive any information if you've only watched one video. I suggest you study the church history and truth claims thoroughly. The Church leaders discourage all members from thorough investigation because they know whoever does will discover the inconvenient truth.
But they did?
Joe had the only one that worked i suppose.
Some years ago I had discussions with the Mormon missionaries and I asked him if the golden plates were on display in salt lake City, so they didn't give me a direct answer but he said oh yeah we know where they are and they're safe. A year later I visited salt lake City and I was hoping to take a look at the plates, perhaps in a museum or some church historical display. Damn lo and behold I was told oh well an angel took them back to heaven.... Right then and there. I knew these people were con men
Remember Mormons: It's wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even if the criticism is true.
Your picture makes this so much better
Famous quote from Dallin Oaks.
😂😂😂😂
John Dehlin I see your video came out about two years ago? And before my comment today, you have four comments? That tells me a lot. You are another desperate individual trying to prove the Church wrong. The Book of Mormon proves itself. I will give you the same challenge I gave some other phonies trying to prove the Book of Mormon false: write a book comparable to the Book of Mormon. You won’t even attempt it because you know you’ll fall flat on your face.
Joseph Smith was personally visited by God and Christ in 1820.
He received the Aaronic Priesthood from John the Baptist on May 15, 1829.
He received the Melchizedek Priesthood from Peter, James, and John shortly afterwards.
On April 3, 1836, Jesus Christ, as well as three Old Testament prophets--Moses, Elias, and Elijah--personally appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple in Kirtland, Ohio.
On two consecutive nights in August 1877, GEORGE Washington and all the Founding Fathers personally appeared from the Spirit World to President Wilford Woodruff in the St. George Temple in St. George, Utah. so that they might receive their temple ordinances.
Such as baptism for the dead, receipt of the Melchizedek Priesthood, Endowments, etc.
In 1898, shortly after President Woodruff died, Jesus Christ personally appeared to President Lorenzo Snow in the Salt Lake Temple because President Snow, the President of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, would be the new President of the Church, and, therefore, His next Prophet on the earth.
So, in summary, the only fraud is you and others who try desperately to put the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints down. The Church continues to grow all over the world.
Don’t forget: you’ve got a huge project in front of you: attempting to write a book comparable to the Book of Mormon. Just to be safe, you might get some Band-Aids for your nose because you’re surely going to fall flat on your face. LOL
@@herbofallon965 Cognitive dissonance through orthopraxy here ^^^^^^^^^^
Funny that used to "ant-Mormon lies" but it's typical church history now, and apologists say things like "yeah I always knew that!"
Dear Dr. Jon Delin.. The new format is great but it's the editing or splicing of the images that isn't quite working... sometimes it's good but all the time in my opinion it is just to much... don't give up.. your get it worked out..
I think this format works great for the young questioning LDS youth.... the target audience. Quirky socratic and to the point. The old duffers in the LDS church are for the most part completely indoctrinated and brainwashed. Obedience to the Mormon leadership is all they know... and they wont exit the echo chamber.
@@dirtdarte brother dirtdarte... did you just call me an old duffer?
@@jessenashvillejames150 No, no.... not at all.... but, for the record, I do believe my age would fit into the old duffer category...Regards Mr. Palmer.
@@dirtdarte I smiled 😊 and laughed and enjoyed you committ... thank you...
dirtdarte I agree with you. John did an awesome job. Nothing wrong with presenting information in a fun and energetic way.
Sorry my brother's and sisters.. I just can't help myself... can we only imagine like one of the current apostles said, "A seer stone is like a cell phone" if that were true... and a cell phone/seer stone being in the possession of Joseph Smith in the 1800 s like an automobile or a plane etc. He would have been the richest man on the face of the planet... and like Dan Vogel said "Why didn't he just use the seer stone to find the the lost 160 pages of the book of mormon?" because like he admitted to his brother in law... the peep stone didn't work... The one things that works in this world is prayer... not peep stones...
I'm glad they didn't. My rock collection would have been Much bigger! I was Hard Core!
Gregory Palmer prayer works the same as seer stones. 100% the same.
prayer is the equivalent of screaming underwater, it wastes your energy, no one can hear you and you drown all the same.
I love Dan Vogel!
Love the editing and humor in this video! More videos like this please 😊
I love these videos, always looking forward to Dr. Dehlin’s next video
Finding out that Joseph Smith used the same stone and hat to traslate is what started my journey out of the church. I feel like a fool now teaching everyone on my mission that he translated it by devine means.
You must have had a pretty weak testimony to not understand how God works through humans. It was still translated by the gift and power of God and not just anyone could do it. Oliver Cowdery tried multiple times and was not given the gift to translate.
THANKS! The Gaslighting hurts a bit less today!
Good news; i just sent Dieter F. Uchtdorf as a message on instagram
I like this style of video! I struggle with having the concentration for hours long, multiple part podcasts in the mainline MS feed (I am glad that people who share their stories there have that space to) but a 15 minute long explanation is really great for listening to while I am doing other tasks as well. Keep up the great work!
"I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.
The characters I speak of are the engravings on the golden plates from which the book was translated. They were engraved thereon by the hand of a holy prophet of God whose name was Mormon, who lived upon this land four hundred years after Christ. Mormon's son, Moroni, after witnessing the destruction of his brethren, the Nephites, who were a white race - they being destroyed by the Lamanites (Indians) - deposited the golden plates in the ground, according to a command of God. An angel of the Lord directed Brother Joseph to them. The language of the Nephites is called the reformed Egyptian language.
"
David Whitmer, "An Address to All Believers in Christ", p.12 ( archive.org/details/addresstoallbeli00whit/page/12/mode/2up )
And this is what the leaders have been so desperate to hide for decades from its members. This was NEVER taught in Sunday School. We were NEVER aware nor taught about the peepstone in a hat story. Even Dalin Oakes stated that it was " anti - Mormon lies ". Until the day came when their facade was exposed to truth, and today they are once again forced to concede.
Yesterday's anti - Mormon lies are today's church essays.
Why did Oliver Cowdery went his own way + left J Smith?
During his time in Harmony PA J Smith had tendency to be womanizer. He was a married man
@james murphy Yep, Whitmer was very adamant about the stone being the instrument of Joseph's "prophetic ability". He believed it was when JS stopped using the stone that he "fell away".
Whitmer isn't the only person to describe this process either, there were 2 or 3 others who were in the know that described it the same way.
@@TheShodan92 - hey! Can you tell me where Dalin Oaks said it was “anti-Mormon lies”. I’m trying to collect a list of lies by the leadership of the church and I need to cite each lie. Thanks for your help
These short educational videos are going to be cancer for TSSC.
Cancer for the cancer
Wow, this is your best video yet! John, please present all this information to the prophet. Everything you said is so valid and super important. The highest church leaders need to be provided with all of this. Like you said, we have the internet now, all of these fallacies can be proven. Thanks for your uplifting/fun video.
You couldn't be so bereft of knowledge to think that the Brethren have not heard all of this nonsense before?
Spot on. One point to clarify, they didn't hire a juggler. "Juggler" was a derogatory term applied to early 19th c. conmen (think of street guys running the shell game, someone who entertains(juggles) while ripping you off.). Joseph Smith was referred to as a juggler by those criticizing his treasure digging operations as cons. He wasn't hired out as a juggler, he was called one afterwards.Jugglers traveled through New England looking for locals to entertain at first (could start with a story...like I found a gold book but the angel won't let me get it" ) and ultimately rip off.
Thank you John!
Hey John. Thanks for this clarification. I am actually trying to find the origin of this source, I have seen other people mention this story, but do we know where it originated from? Thanks.
Are you looking for a reference to JS being referred to as a juggler, or references to how jugglers were considered in the time of JS? For the first, I have to search, but recall he was dismissed as a "common juggler"...maybe in the trial documents. For general reference, use Newspapers.com and search between 1800-1835, choose NY, VT papers (or more) and you will find many examples of how the term-cheats, conjurors, conmen, it is someone who gains through trickery.
3/2/1839-article in the Vermont Union Whig refers to JS as the juggler out front of the Spaulding scheme. That is a late reference, pretty sure early references are in the Bainbridge trial testimonies.
thanks!
Well done! This video is exactly the kind of video I imagined you making when you first announced this channel. Love love love it!
"Moroni. Or Nephi" My personal favorite. Fantastic analysis and comic relief.
I so regret the lies I taught as a missionary about the Book of Mormon translation. But I think the translation lies are still being taught in the mission field. Good presentation John. God bless you!
You must be a liar if you taught lies. I didn't teach lies on my mission.
@@raymond1842 Mormon missions are lies
in the beginning seconds( 24 sec) it's important to mention, that all of these illustrations, paintings, and drawings, that depict Joseph Smith translating the book of moron (whoops, sorry, Mormon) with the golden plates, had to have gone through a careful and thorough inspection and approval process from the General Authorities in order to end up hanging in their buildings. You think any old artist could just raise their hand, and sign up to create an art of this stature without the proper line of approval and consent from the General Authorities? Nope, don't think so......think about it, this is proof that the GA were deliberately deceiving (and conditioning) their devout followers about how the book of Mormon was being translated. That can be an "understanding Mormonism" video in and of its self. Dr John Dehlin, great video, keep up the great work!
Well done John well done. I'm loving these shorts!
Not sure if the jump cut format feels right for your channel, given your already large and established body of work. Enjoyed the video though
Hey John. I have followed you on your journey for years, I remember when Mormon Stories episodes were in the single digits. I know a lot of time and events have transpired since then. The one thing I have always respected you for is the way you present yourself and the facts. I have never felt like you were trying to persuade me to believe one way or the other. There are many others out there who come off as angry or as if they have an ax to grind, this for me is a huge turn off. Ultimately I feel these people are more interested in getting me to join another church or some other organization (just look at the suggested videos in RUclips side bar for a list of these such people). While I like the information and the concise way you present these topics, I feel that your style in presenting is different from what I’m used to from you. I am excited for more, and I wish you the best of luck with the new channel!
More heartbreaking news for mormons who now either have to cling to their “slippery treasure” or acknowledge that their religion is a self-help group to raise moral families.
I feel I was too harsh here.
It’s so sad from the perspective of (real) Christians too, because this religion leaves people religiously abused and creates a stumbling block in the way of coming to any other religious understanding. Just sad. There are actual religious traditions out there that are about worshipping and knowing God (one that isn’t an exalted man or who came from another planet) and that calls people away from the type of human self absorption that Mormonism engenders because of its rank materialist philosophy.
Great video! It's been a wild ride all these years that I've been listening to you. Awesome to see you summarizing these "stories" for those who want the Cliff notes version!
I was so angry when I found out about the "peep stone" from lds.org . I felt so betrayed and deceived. On my mission in 2003 I even defended against that South Park episode; I look foolish now. I am on my way out regardless, but this really added a sting to my already shattered faith
You should also watch Dan Vogel on RUclips he does great historical research and Mormon stories did a verrrrrry long (and great) interview with him!
Dum de Dum de Dum.good the lies hert.
You felt betrayed and deceived? Come on, you went on a mission in 2023 and have already found an excuse to exit? Please remember your testimony and do not be led by a flaxen cord by the likes of Dr. Death, John Dehlin.
LOVED IT! Its perfect for someone who is re-discovering their religion and belief system. It's a great synopsis of what should be studied further. Thanks!
Great video. So true about South Park...that’s where I first learned about the stone in the hat. But at the time, I dismissed it as “anti” propaganda. Still, the rest of that episode seemed so well-researched. Fast forward a few more years, I’m thumbing through the Ensign at my mom’s house. There it is...Joseph’s seer stone! The first thought in my head? South Park was right! What else is the Church not telling us? That was the start of my deep dive into truth seeking. Soon after I discovered Mormon Stories and the CES Letter. Mind blown.
I dislike the use of the word "translate" in terms of the BOM. There never was any translation. Compose, generate, manufacture, produce and even some plagiarism. Even exmo's still fall into linguistics traps of mormon gaslighting.
Hehehehe, still chuckling! I like the ending (actual ending).
Wonderful content, well done!
What is thrive?
facebook.com/thrivebeyondmormonism/
Love the THRIVE hat. THRIVE captures what can happen when your life is not driven by lies. You will THRIVE!!!
@@UnderstandingMormonism I was praying it wasn't yet another MLM.
The editing and presentation are brilliant! Love this!
Omg your best ever.....LOL....loved this
This is why I have a high respect for the work you do, because of presentations like this. Absolutely loved it and support it!
Much appreciated!
Great job John. Loving the length and content. Some technical observations- a little heavy on the quick cuts, I understand the style and think it can fit well, just got a little distracting and there is a typo on slide 10. :) Thanks for all you do, it is meaningful work and I share your enthusiasm in sharing truth and acknowledging history. Good vibes to a good man.
It was a little chopped, but still love the format and the humor is great to see!
The Comore-Moroni connection with Captain Kidd is interesting and it's certainly my theory that there's a connection. However, in my researching, I couldn't find any primary documents that Joseph would have had access too. Incidentally the old spelling in the BoM did match that of some old maps, so there's still a strong connection.
Why did we learn this from South Park? AMEN!!! That was so frustrating to me when I discovered all of this before the essays and the admittance. It took SO much research to confirm that the BoM was indeed "translated" with a seer stone instead of the Urim and Thumin. Perhaps now that the church is admitting this, the burden of proof isn't so important, but when I watched this I was expecting that kind of content based on the title, not a rehash of the recent Mormon Podcast. Don't get me wrong, I've loved recent output and have shared and praised on Facebook. I just thought the title was misleading. I was expecting references that showed that he did, in fact, use a seer stone and not the Urim and Thumin. (Not the backstory, the why.) That's the kind of content that really shook me in my own research.
I Love these new short,concise videos! I love the long Mormon stories interviews too, but this“ down to brass tacks” approach gives ideas and main points that I feel may be useful in future conversations I may have with family and friends. Love that lots of the resources are noted in the video slides as far as books etc. Are included. Short enough to even show to someone to back up a conversation.
Your new channel is awesome!!! Most of the time, I don't have the hours necessary to listen to multipart episodes and a specific topic like this is "just what the doctor ordered". The editing is professional as well not a wasted second. Thank you for expanding your content in this way. I am a HUGE fan and wished there were more people like you in this world.
One of your slides has a typo. “..there was a very strong financial motivate...” It should say motive.
Been watching Mormon stories for 2 years and this is my first on this channel.
Great video. Going forward it would be nice to also have references either in the corner somewhere or listed in the description. Would also like to see fewer cuts, but that means more script prep and retakes. However you decide to present it though, it is nice to have this info put out in an easily digestible format. Excited to see the next ones.
dude, loving the new content and this editing is awesome
Great job putting this together Dr. John. For those of us who don't have the time to do 1 to 2 hours of research or You Tubing this 15 minute format hits the spot for me. You have done a wonderful job of getting so much information together in such an interesting and comprehensive format. You are leaving me wanting more. I forward these to family members who are blown away. Keep up the good work. Now that I'm saving so much on tithing, I think I'm going to send some of that your way!
Thank you so much for your great feedback and support!
@@UnderstandingMormonism Joseph Smith didn't Translate Nothing, it's all a lie, what he did Copied the Scriptures out of the Bible,the book of Mormon is nothing but Plagiarism and that's a fact, Dude was nothing but a false teacher and a Con Man, there has never been not one ancient manuscript of the book of Mormon why because the Man lied
If you would have paid your tithing you would never have been led astray by the likes of Dr. Death, John Dehlin.
Do you have an episode or series on the mental health impact of Mormonism (ie guilt, shame, depression, etc.)?
I can't fathom a seminary teacher not being aware of the stone in a hat. My teacher LIED or strongly misled our entire class.
That’s the point! One big lie
15 minutes is close to the average attention span! You'll get more viewers with these shorts. TED talks are about 17 minutes. It's great that you're concentrating a lot of information into it. Those interested can then go to Mormon Stories for more depth.
I grew up in SLC and was not in a Mormon family. I have known from a very young age that this is how their Mormon book was created. I’m confused that the majority of the “church” does not know this?
Would it be accurate to say that the big 15 don't have any stones? Great video. Loved your mocking and semi-mocking tone. Mormons, and especially Mormon Apologists, are begging to be mocked.
Dr. John... You're the BEST! Thanks for all the hard work. This entire "religion" (???) is "slippery", and nowhere near "treasure"!
Rock in a hat, cat in a hat, face in a hat, the mad hatter. It’s all cray cray 😜
This made me laugh so many time-keep up the great work!
OMG... best episode yet! This is seriously the best series!!! Keep up the good work! And keep throwing in that humor... it works!
I can’t help but burst out laughing at your demonstration sticking your face in the hat, but at the same time it’s maddening to think about. Thank you for putting out these concise, easy to understand videos. Really helps when TBMs try to challenge me
Dr Dehlin .. I believe i figured out how Joseph got a hold of the the solomon Spaulding papers
Magical crystal spectacles are pretty nonsensical too, but, yeah, TSCC has not represented its own history even close to accurately.
So I am a little confused by this (non Mormon here) . The story is that he translated directly off the plates (that’s what they told us at the Hawaiian cultural place in 1978 in their movie) and that’s what Mormons have been taught. And there are “witnesses” to this translation and the existence of the plates. But, in reality he used this hat and stone/ how? He would stick his face in the hat, then come out and write stuff down in front of witnesses or did someone else write it for him as he read? Where did the confusion come from? And if it’s all baloney anyway, why does it matter?
Could it be possible that Joseph Smith suffered from hypercapnia from rebreathing his own breath by sealing his face to a hat for extended period of time? NDE?
Why does God allow people to use the same electronic device to send/receive deceiving pictures and messages then allow them to later use that same device to share their stories or even His word?
A complete critical examination of the sources on which the stone-in-the-hat narrative relies is now available. See Lucas and Neville's book "By Means of the Urim & Thummim: Restoring Translation to the Restoration."
How could I have been a member all my life and missionary, and not know any of this? I feel really lied to.. These presentations have been answering so many of my questions since I started looking into church history. When I google church history I get mostly church sites and information, or sites with information I don't understand well. These videos with a speaker that explains and shows a case with evidence and reasoning, this is the Sunday school I always wish I'd had!!
It's the 'sunk cost' fallacy, in a very real sense of the term, that causes TBMs to cling on to their faith in Joseph Smith.
You've probably heard the name
Dan Vogel
Great job with the editing, made me chuckle.
Keep up the good work.
Dan is the best! He actually did a very long interview of dan on Mormon stories podcast
juddclub ???? He presents history with the writings of the time he presents no theories.
Edit: please cite what he plagiarized
No joke this is the BEST video on this topic I've seen. Thank you so much, it brings peace to my mind after having left. If you haven't yet, you could do a video on why it's so hard for people after they leave, how the church conditions and brainwashed children, or how to move past the church effectively
Thank you, Jon!!!
John Dehlin is by far one of the most intelligent minds I’ve know. His capacity of analysis and put all the history together, understanding the moment that facts happened make it all very simple. All this families and people were led into a situation that they are all trapped. The purpose is good, but it’s a trap. The whole situation became critical with lots of cover ups. This old fellows , prophets and apostles, they were put into an evil situation , because they are also trapped. And with tears in their eyes they want this to be truth, because now they know that there is no Santa Claus . Utah is falling apart. Mormonism is falling apart. Some members will always refuse to see the truth, it’s not convenient. Children grand children wives and friends . Living a permanent state of delusion
What’s the source for the “damned nonsense “ quote?
This was great! I really liked the style!
Another great video. I love learning this information. I can’t wait for the next one.
Great video. I've also heard that Oliver Cowdrey was a member of a nearby church whose pastor was writing a book that was almost identical to the book of mormon.
Yes. View of the Hebrews was the book.
He used a seer stone because it seemed more legitimate than his Spectacles which he built which were 8 inches across (6 inches between the centers of the lenses). Do the math. The Jaradites who used these would have had to be over 11' tall. Sure, Joseph's father believed in the ancient giants and others may have as well, but these days it sounds kind of crazy. That's why there isn't a singel accurate depiction of the spectacles in all of the LDS images and literature. They would have looked ridiculous on Joseph Smith. Hence the need for the curtain early on.
Yes somehow they don’t mention today that they believed they were all giants 😂 makes it a little more ridiculous
He used the seer stone because there likely were no spectacles. A fellow scryer baited him into claiming there were spectacles. But there's no evidence of any urim and thummim spectacles, other than the testimony of the three witnesses, who never saw them in reality (only in vision). Here is the world's preeminent researcher of early Mormon history explaining this:
ruclips.net/video/ksnbSh51itg/видео.html
Joseph Smith did NOT use the occultic seer stone to translate the BoM. I am a Latter-day Saint, and I still believe in the traditional narrative we all grew up learning. For those of you who have any questions, want to preserve their faith, and want to understand that the church and gospel are NOT the same, and that the mistakes of recent presidents (Joseph Smith not included) does not reflect upon or dampen the truth of the gospel, I highly recommend checking out this excellent book Seer Stone v. Urim and Thummim: Book of Mormon Translation on Trial, written by my good friends--the founders of the (church unaffiliated) Joseph Smith Foundation.
Please do one of these for EVERY Gospel Topics Essays So I can show my kids and others! Editing is AMAZING
Fantastic, thanks, John...all the people I lied to as a Missionary...
It’s a very sobering thought.
John, I like your new channel. The short format complements Mormon Stories very well.
I'm interested in why they are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators, when none of them do any of that.
No prophesies.
No revelations.
And no using peep stones to "translate" a darn thing.
Yes there is more papyrus they could translate with the rock in their hat! 😂
Seems like the prophets would have seen covid coming .
I'm a convert (43 years) and I ALWAYS knew of a brown peep stone. I don't remember how I first came to know about it, but I always did. When all of this came out (internet) I just figured that I knew a lot more about MY religion than those who were born in it. (Let's face it had they been born Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist etc., they would be just as staunch believers in their religion). But I also come from a 'treasure hunting' (Civil War) background (in my younger days) and I know scrying does exist. I've personally done it twice, rather unexpectedly (once a mirror and another time a pane of glass).
I personally have used a (dowsing) 'rod' (of Aaron) to find hidden or lost things (mostly keys, wedding rings and most recently ear buds dropped in a yard). It takes a HUGE amount of faith. All this was taught to me by an old man in Louisiana. As a (former) treasure hunter none of Joseph Smith's story seems strange or unacceptable to me. I hear this and say 'Yeah, so what?' That's the way the old timers did things'.
If church leaders and Sunday school teachers failed to educate members in the 'magical world view' of Mormon origins that's on those teachers NOT the above described practice itself.
I know it's extremely hard to fathom these things from todays modern world perspective ... I have no scientific explanations for what can be described as the paranormal... other than I was taught ALL things have a 'spirit' and you can tap into that 'spirit' using nothing but faith. I've experienced many things including 'slippery' Civil War treasures (enchantments) for myself. Please don't denigrate a lost art because you don't understand how it works.
You found ear buds and keys. Apparently that's much more than JS ever found.
@@cousinfester4621 Yet my dear cousin... You yourself are sitting here gathering information from a CRYSTAL (diode screen). Why do you insist man's creations (computer crystals) are greater than God's? (Urim & Thummin crystals)
John, this time you jumped up to your best level ever. Thanks and congrats!
My Bishop wrote me and said seer stones are mentioned in the B.O.M. I said that having seer stones in the B.O.M. is the logical reinforcement of his career change from failed and illegal digging for treasure too peddling books of money.
They were called nephite interpreters in the bom, they later changed to calling them Urim and thummim so it didn’t sound so treasure digger.
Great video! Thanks for your work!
I think a comment at the beginning of the vid and a link to a specific Truth Claims article would be very helpful in future episodes. My dad will simply not believe the bullet points. He even denied that JS had multiple wives and I'm like "er, not sure how to handle this, I was taught that, how can you not know that?" Left me not knowing how to proceed.
Thank you Dr John
At church, I learned he used the stone and his hat for the translation. I didn't realize it wasn't common knowledge. BTW, you mentioned some pretty good reasons to use a seer stone there at the end 👍
I love this format!! These videos would have been so helpful during my faith transition!
I remember those posters of Joseph Smith running his fingers down the golden plates in the branch I used to belong to when my family joined the church. Or Smith looking very seriously at the plates, as if reading them. There was some mention initially of the spectacles and the breastplate during the lessons given by the missionaries, but these were later abandoned. I think Smith could've carried the ruse about the spectacles and the other items and nobody would've known any different, particularly if the other conspirators would've backed him up. I used to be a Seventy and worked with the missionaries in our ward. I attended the investigators' class with them and recall that one man -- who evidently knew a lot about the church -- asked about the concept that there was a Heavenly Mother somewhere, since Heavenly Father was supposed to be married. And why wasn't this female deity mentioned in the Bible or other scripture? One of the missionaries came up with one of the lamest explanations I had ever heard -- but believed at the time -- that Heavenly Father loved his wife so dearly that he couldn't stand to hear anybody use her name in vain, which is why she was never mentioned in any scripture. I could tell that the questioner didn't buy that answer, and who could blame him? As a member I never questioned things -- which was discouraged, as was dealing with members who had "fallen away" -- and never did any research. I was just happy to accept whatever the church claimed was the truth. Although I did enjoy my membership in the church, I think a lot of that was because the LDS faith has a way of drawing you in with its "fellowship." We used to poke fun at other churches, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, and wondered how they could be so blind and not see how blatantly wrong they were. But we never looked at ourselves that critically.
Why didn't he just call it the book of More Money?
More of these videos need to get out as fast as possible ! I love them ! These are the BEST ever! We need one on Plagiarism 💕 I love your humor in these too and as a comment said above , the fun cuts were great!
I wonder if Joseph ever placed the hat on the table, the hat and table having a holes in them, and simply held his manuscript under the table reading through the hole. If there was a table cloth this could be an effective magic prop and impress his supporters from time to time.
John, I absolutely LOVE the editing for this video! Especially at 3:26, and you’re face after you say “scam.” 😂😂😂
This is a great video. Thank you for putting this together.
theres ample evidence joseph smith didnt translate the b of m but that rigdon converted veiw of the hebrews into the b of m.
We didn't know that because it was never part of correlated curriculum. It was never taught in seminary, institute, gospel doctrine, gospel principles, primary, youth or in BYU Religion courses.
I love the presentation it is awesome and entertaining!!!!! Thank you!!!!!