Tithing and the LDS / Mormon Church
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- Опубликовано: 6 июл 2024
- A discussion of tithing and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Mormon church using general conference talks. We also explore the church's 100 billion portfolio.
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Resources:
18 reasons you should be paying tithing on surplus only: bit.ly/2SdT2cf
Are We Paying Too Much Tithing?: bit.ly/3igwt1i
CES letter: bit.ly/33nkzx2
Truth Claims: bit.ly/35zTFVE
Mormon Think: bit.ly/2FrxXYX
LDS Discussions/Gospel Topic Essays Expanded: bit.ly/3kdH5iH
Official LDS Gospel Topic Essays: www.churchofjesuschrist.org/s...
Letter for My Wife: bit.ly/35zw9rO
Faith Crisis Resources:
Mormon Faith Crisis: bit.ly/2ZyIBEk
Books:
Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet by Dan Vogel: bit.ly/3cd7Tgp
No Man Knows my History: The Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn McKay Brodie: amzn.to/3hMEDy6
Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman: bit.ly/2FQ4nwc
Related Podcasts:
Radio Free Mormon: bit.ly/2RkgfJk
Mormon Discussions: bit.ly/3keanxB
Thoughts on things and Stuff: bit.ly/3mmLzpb
D Y I N G!! John, this format is EVERYTHING!!! Your particular flavor of humor and sarcasm is spot on! Can’t get enough of these videos!!
Yes please do more!!!
Yesss, this is one of my favorites of his. He nailed it.
"There is nooooo other way. " 🤣🤣🤣
“Pay your tithing now so that you can get your blessings in the next life,” says the guy getting his blessings in this one.
Haha good point!
Yes!Yes!Yes!!!
very good!!!
Yes. You will be able to get a free Rolls Royce and a mansion in heaven.
Exactly.
I repented after many years of paying tithing , I now have a 10% increase , have still got a job, still put food on the table and buy shoes, Im so blessed
Yay for you!
I remember asking if I could take my 10% and invest it in my own community... I was shunned for that idea. There are so many homeless families I see everyday that need that money more then the church's stock file. I was also shunned for volunteering at the food bank because I was told by a 1st counselor, quote "im wasting my life doing that." I can't look back 🤷♀️ I'm out. I'll be charitable on my own terms.
I remember a similar experience
I think it's about the whole trust in God thing no idea you were a ex-mo or mormon
Love your videos btw
It’s political, rely on the church for everything and give the church everything but don’t ask the church for anything. That just wrong
I used to participate in ward programs for the homeless. We would pack lunches and then deliver right away. When I suggested doing more frequent outreach work at the ward level I got shot down.
I was yelled at for giving money to an animal rescue, I was told to only give to the church.I just sent in my resignation and went back to the Church I grew up in,
Tithing and fast offering are two separate things. Tithing goes mostly to church operations. I don't know if you are wasting time at a food bank. I have done service projects there too. Good for you helping people in your community. I learned a lot helping others at a homeless shelter and food bank. Fast offerings go to needy people within the church.
Right On!! This! We were so poor, and my mom was trying so hard to tithe. She offered the best of our abundant garden to the ward. She was told to go home and repent.
Wow as a business owner I sometimes accepted fresh food from the land as payment for services. It was always worth more than the cash I would have earned then spent at a grocery store, and it was a rare request. People have to be incredibly humble to make such an offering. The denial of her blessing was insulting enough, but WTH was anyone thinking telling her to repent? Of what? Seems to me your mom was aligned with ancient teachers who taught what giving and sacrifice really are.
This shows how disgusting the church is toward those who want to show their faith . And how the priority for The Church of bla bla bla only want money.
Vegetables don’t build malls....maybe if you had given apple stock they would accept that 😂
They can't depost fruits and veggies in the bank
Absolutely disgusting, you’re mom sounds like a beautiful person who had nothing to repent for. I hope she left the church.
"I can't afford to NOT pay my tithing!"
That phrase is a big peeve of mine.
Your sarcasm is on point for this one, John.
That fraze is embedded in my brain.
Thank you for putting this together. I stopped paying tithes to the LDS church in 2020. I give my tithes and offerings to legitimate charities providing for widows and orphans (which is biblical) and I have peace and joy about this. I feel more blessed than ever including spiritually. I also have done what little I could to help at least one family who had real struggles during the pandemic but was refused help from the church and was shamed for asking. Such responses from Bishops are disgraceful and extremely un Christ like.
Shelley Marie, let's see the top brass take off the suits to help men and women who live on the streets. The summer is here, and people will need chilled water for relief. Why not follow the examples of Jesus instead? Your statements are just amazing. There is a better way.
Before you give Fast Offerings, remember how easy is it to get help from a Bishop. Then think about the resources of you local food bank.
Hey Shelly🤗(same name as me lol) I quit paying tithes to that organization in 1978 but paid mine to St. Jude's, wounded warriors some prisoners (in juvenile) now I send it to All Things Possible Ministries who's mission now (since 2016) go to Afghanistan and Iraq to save ISIS survivers. They're totally great people! Look up Victor Marx see his testimony it's thrilling.👍😬❤️
The good Lord is going to bless you for your actions. Churches (all) rarely do enough for the poor.
Tithing in Jesus day wasn't in the form of money and only farmers were required to tithe of their crops and their livestock. This provided the Levitical priesthood sustanence since the tribe of Levi didn't have land. The New Testament has no commandment to tithe..we are to give freely and not out of pressure. It is our choice the amount we give.
Why did this make me so upset? Oh yeah, I want my money back.
Me too. And a public apology.
@@personofinterest8731 ""I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them," Oaks said in an interview. "We sometimes look back on issues and say, 'Maybe that was counterproductive for what we wish to achieve,' but we look forward and not backward."
The church doesn't "seek apologies," he said, "and we don't give them."
archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2108746&itype=CMSID So no public apology and they need the tithing money to buy out businesses and build malls.
good luck
Pay your tithing so we can build a mall.
The process was grueling but it sure it a nice shopping center isn’t it?
I've never shopped there and never will!
I'll be dang if they ever get a penny of my money ever again!
obviously, you don't know the full story. the church isn't going to sit on its piles of money and watch the community suffer, not contribute to the community. Their investments in building shopping malls added greatly to the Utah economy and gave many jobs to both members and nonmembers so it sounds pretty unselfish for the LDS church to do that. It's a no win situation critics place on the LDS faith, if they don't use their money to help, they're hypocrites but if they do use their finances to generate employment, then suddenly they're evil cause it has to do with business XD
This video shows me the best way to disprove the church is to just let em speak!
Tithing was the last straw that broke my shelf. Mostly it was that I realized tithing is a pay-for-salvation scheme. Then I hear quotes like these and 🤯
Greg Rummler yes what percentage of church money is used for church purposes and what percentage goes to for profit business that church leaders run and get paid from? How much do they get paid to sit in the board or be cfo?
A Tangerine man don’t let those facts get in the way, just blindly give your money to them and don’t question it!!! It’s funny how they can’t apply the same standards.
what @A Tangerine said! BLAM!!
Exactly. I am realizing this. I wished my RM wife of 7.5 years would also realize that the church only cares about one thing...Money..
I’m so happy I got out before I actually got a full time job. It pains me to think of the mounds of cash my parents have paid and still pay to the church.
I recently left “the Church” and now these men sound like soft spoken used car salesmen.
Bruce McConkie is so repulsive and so offensive and so abrasive that it is amazing and appalling. Bruce spoke at a stake conference that was in my mission. It was a major mile marker along the way in my exit from the Book of MORmON church. I could not get past the reality that I would NEVER really want to be in any MORmON "Heaven" with such a foul rancid self obsessed character.
This was so informative yet discouraging. I remember being first married, and we would pay our tithing before paying rent and ended up being charged more money because we were late. Now looking back, it put us in a more significant financial bind. Luckily, I learned that I received zero “blessings” from tithing, and we stopped paying three years after. I can't believe the manipulation and mind games they play with people that want to be faithful to their church.
Financially irrepressible to tell its members pay tithing first then bills second.
Remember that 100 Billion dollar portfolio, but they still need more money.
It’s says clearly in the scriptures to tithe off of your surplus. Secondly, it’s seems like you view tithing as a membership instead of having a strong relationship with your Heavenly Father. The church could care less about your money. They are simply following the principles of the scriptures and are very successful at it. Look in the mirror. Have some accountability.
Doctrine and Covenants 119, 1:
“Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their surplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion.”
@chrisneva you're a blind FOOL
yikes the burning. I love the format of this video John! Potent cuts/quotes, loved the got background song, and really well made/spoken. thank you! great video work :)
That reminds me in seminary when we had to do scripture mastery and there were these little rhymes to help remind what the subject was of a particular scripture and I remember very distinctly the one about tithing going "tithe or burn for sure" and I think that was one of the first times in my life when I'm like wait hold on that doesn't sound right or moral to me.
Thanks so much!
Agree, like this format! Thanks, I enjoy your content this way, as well as the other expressions!
I totally understand this. The scripture that was referenced was Malachi 3:8-10
"8 ¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
We might forget, however, that this was a rebuke church leaders of the day, who were neglecting to discharge their responsibilities to the Lord. In the Book of Mormon, King Benjamin taught that we should give if we can, and not feel forced to do so. I believe that Alma also addressed these concerns during his ministry. I'm currently serving in my ward as the financial Clerk, and I see a lot of members who need assistance with various things. May we be wise in the discharge of our obligations and responsibilities :)
A bit ago after I finally got over the fear to stop paying tithing I checked my LDS account to see how much I had paid. It only went back a few years to whenever the online records started, so it didn't cover my youth and 20s, but the amount I had given up to the church while scrambling out of deep debt incurred from school and just starting a very late career matched what I still owed on my student loans. Had I put that money to actually better my life and those around me I'd have all my student loans paid off instead of carrying them further for over a decade.
In all the years of our marriage, DH and I haven’t paid tithing for only the last two years. Guess which two years have been, by far, our best ones financially?
When our kids were small and it really mattered to them, we had multiple Christmases taken completely from them by the Grinch of catching up at Tithing Settlement. While shredding 10yr+ old tax records this summer, I was shocked to add up the amount we’d paid over just 7 of those years as a one-paycheck working-class SAHM household. Then I got angry, once again, at remembering just how much our family has suffered for our obedience to these Skeksis AND THEN been judged for our trials and troubles on top of it.
Skesis XD stealing that
What's a skeksis? Sexist?
@@louistournas120 A Skeksis is a fictional evil character from the Jim Hensen feature-film, Dark Crystal
I have found myself trying to make it up to my adult kids by buying them nice things for Christmas now. I can afford it now that I don't pay tithing.
@@Oilstories
If you quit mormonism, and I don’t know if you have quit, why don’t you ask for your money back?
"Pay your tithing and you'll find happiness"..
I did just that and was miserable for decades.
" Read the Book of Mormon and pray and you'll find happiness"...
I did and my temple patron wife cheated on me.
"Moroni 10:4 is how you get a testimony".
It didn't work.. "You didn't pray hard enough - something is wrong with you".
So I left the church.
Now happy as can be.
*Sigh*. If the advice given to you was "you didn't pray hard enough" then chances are you weren't dealing with the actual member of the LDS church who cares about it, but instead the "fake" member, who *moralizes* instead of preaching, saying that "if you don't do X, Y, and Z, then you aren't a true member of the church, because I, as the church leadership, have studied the word of God more than you, and thus I know what a true believer is supposed do do, imposing a hierarchal system where none officially exists". You know, discounting Peter, where one is specifically *not supposed* to exist.
It's unfortunate, but a lot of people try to get their way in life by deceiving and manipulating others, and not just in cooperate organisations. It's all too common in religious organisations, especially Christian ones.
As an LDS member myself, I understand the reasons you left. I may disagree with them, but as long as you try to be a decent person, I won't care about who or what you believe in (or don't believe in).
I also walked away , I've never been happier, what a two faced contradictory church really does want investigating
Birman Dragon do you believe the bom is historically accurate?
@@shawnbradford2243 I, personally, believe the Book of Mormon to be historically accurate, but I acknowledge that I may be wrong, and I understand why others believe differently.
I am unsure as to why you asked your question. In my original comment, I stated that I was a member of the LDS Church. Belief in the historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon is highly implied by that statement. Are you just trying to confirm something (Like my level of intelligence, or lack thereof), or do you have some other reason for asking?
@@birmandragon1495 you are correct, there are some members that do not believe the bom/boa are accurate but stay. There are some members that don’t know any better that history exists and think the bom/boa are historical. So what makes you believe the bom his historically accurate? We know for sure the native Americans (I happen to be among them) are not lamanite, and we know for a fact that the continent was not covered by Hebrews and only Hebrews as the bom claims and we know for a fact the boa is a false translation of common Egyptian funerary papyrus. The question is if your educated how can you accept the known falsehoods of Mormonism?
At an early age I realized my non-Mormon's family was just as blessed as my Mormon family. Hmmm
To paraphrase: 'Youse are gonna get whacked - by the Lord - if youse don't pay your protection. It's an offer you can't refuse. Capisce?'.
This reminds me of the argument given at the pulpit, "Do you want gross blessings or net blessings?" Meaning paying 10% of your paycheck before deductions you didn't bring home brought more favors from God than if you only paid 10% of the money you actually saw in your pocket. I wish I was paraphrasing.
Edit: Thirty years after leaving I just now realize how messed up it is to speak for God and tie finances into what blessings God provides.
It gives new meaning to the moniker "Godfather"
That's a mighty nice soul you have there. Be a shame for something to happen to it.
That hurt to listen to, and I have never been a Mormon. Some of that was every bit as bad as the worst televangelists I have seen on TV trying to con grandmothers out of their social security checks.
@@thewealthofnations4827 christ almighty. who let you on the internet? shouldnt you be fleecing some senior citizens out of their social security checks? get back to work or else you wont get into space heaven.
I remember, growing up in my hometown years ago, M. Russell Ballard came to speak to our stake. It hadn't rained in a long time, and I remember there was a stake wide fast on behalf of the farmers so that their crops wouldn't fail. Ballard said that the reason it hadn't rained was because too many members weren't paying an honest tithe. I remember thinking how amazing it was to have an apostle give us the guidance and answers that we needed. But now I think what he did was really manipulative.
And you got no rain after he was there either because he has no authority 😂
@@shawnbradford2243 Honestly, I don't remember. Obviously it rained again eventually. And that's how this stuff works. If you can take stuff that already has a modest probability of happening anyway, and exploit that, then people's confirmation bias will always kick in so that they credit God when the "miracle" finally happens, and blame themselves if it doesn't. It's a con, especially when you say miracles and other blessings require payment in the form of tithing.
Noah Heninger yep so very true!
Noah Heninger that’s exactly how it works. Elder Nelson requested that members fast twice to stop the spread of Coronavirus, with fasting come the expectation of fast offers and so far the virus still very active so they won’t talk about it but eventually the curve of infection will be curved and a vaccine available, after that the leaders will remind the members about the fasting and attribute it to that.
Since leaving the church 6 years ago, it grinds my ears to hear oaks voice. I think this started after hearing "it's wrong to criticize the leaders....."
Exactly!! Me too...
Me three!
This is not only a problem in the LDS Church. Just look at all these prosperity gospel teachers like Joel Osteen, Hillsong, Bethel Church... Same manipulative techniques
At least Joel Osteen doesn't ask for a tithe.
You're absolutely right. And even more broadly this is a problem with ALL religions that demand from their congregations based on the supernatural. Back to the topic on the video; Mormon tithing and the vast wealth of the church. In the United States, the Mormon Church is the second wealthiest church behind the Roman Catholic church. The Mormon church's estimated wealth is around 100-150BILLION USD. Recent whistleblowers from within the Mormon HQ in Salt Lake City have exposed what appear to be fraud and tax evasion by a subsidiary of the Mormon church. This is still outstanding and the Mormon church has again employed it's deft team of attorneys, Kirton & McConkie, to protect the church from the IRS and further public scrutiny.
Again I think this is an issue of ALL religions worldwide. In the United States we need to revoke ALL churches "TAX EXEMPT" status - to me this is a clear violation of a founding principle: Separation of Church and State. Unbeknownst to a great deal of Americas these days, particularly right leaning religious groups, our founders did NOT frame our nation based on "Western Christian Judea" values -- they were in large part secularists who vehemently opposed having a nationally sanctioned church/state. They saw the problems in created in their ancestral countries and vowed to keep church and state separated. We should not allow these organizations to keep evading taxation and grow to these levels where they continue to exert tremendous influence in politics and law making. It creates this pseudo position for churches to benefit from not paying taxes while still maintaining direct or indirect involvement in politics. There is a great deal of "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" going on here and even direct meddling -- the Mormon church alone very openly opposed the gay marriage bill in California and opposed medical marijuana in its home state of Utah (where Med MJ passed anyway!).
R2 D2 thats $100 billion in one stock fund! Not to mention the other funds they have, farms, real estate, publishing by guess would be closer to $400 billion valuation! And yes all religions are the same to different levels. One of the craziest parts about Mormonism is how mall in comparison to its wealth. The church has been using its tithe for profit business so long it’s wealth has grown huge. They should tax all churches like a business and give them deductions for the verified work they do with their money for charity. It’s a financial scam they use to avoid taxes and get wealth for themselves notice how many of those church own lavish properties planes cars , it pays for their lavish lifestyles!
@@shawnbradford2243 Yeah that's very true! We don't quite know the full scale of the wealth of the mormon church. I wholly agree with you regarding taxation of churches. You've provided a balanced way to make it fair. They can do deductions for the verified charitable work executed and the rest can be taxed as income like every other person/business in the country.
It's incredible how this cult has grown so large but at the same time not really surprising. As a species we might have the supernatural ingrained into our own DNA through thousands of years of indoctrination.
@@ryanthomastewWe don’t know because the greedy Q15 conartists don’t want us to know. Non- transparent. BYU is# 2 acccounting school in the nation & cult LDS inc refuses to publish its financials, even to its full tithe paying members. Hypocrites! Jesus weeps at the wasted hoards of $$!
John! Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! This is your best work yet! What I really love about it is would feel comfortable sharing this with a TBM friend. We need more content like this. This was a HOME RUN!
Yay! Thanks, Chris!
My parents paid tithing first to reap the blessings from the savior. The blessings were filing bankruptcy twice that I know of.
Those are the best blessings ever!
"Why don't YOU pay your tithing?"
That had me rolling on the floor. Dammit John that was good comedic timing
I JUST found your channel. I've been an exmormon for 10 years. This actually made me laugh out loud. Thank you.
I think spiritual extortion may be the most accurate thing I've heard in reference to tithing. The whole thing is a huge racket. And this new format is fantastic, BTW.
racket to whose benefit?
Wow. I laughed out loud, very hard, multiple times for the first 4 minutes or so. Then.... then it got serious. :o
Well done John, as always.
Jesus is coming and he's bringing his Amex card
😂😅😆😹🤣😸🤭
Kaiju sushi ...and can be found shopping at City Creek Center shopping mall
@@funkyfreshtx - mormon jesus would be so proud of his luxury shopping mall
I shouldn’t have been laughing this hard 🤣
The new name of the church should be the church of Jesus Christ of latter day shopping malls and investments.
I can sum up the Law of Tithing: Want to have the luxurious life you always wanted? Want to stop living pay check to pay check? Want to be able to put food on the table for your children? Well, for the small price of 10% of what you make, we can make that all happen and then some*! So give today.
*While donations are mandatory for this program, the program director and its affiliates are in no way obligated to do anything that could be considered beneficial for you. As far as you achieving the success you desire from this program, individual results do vary.... a lot.
Thank you for this. Especially calling for stopping the practice of revoking temple recommends. A friend told me of a couple he knows who had theirs revoked because they chose to pay the mortgages of several single mothers for six months (during covid). When their Bishop asked them about their lack of tithing they explained they chose to pay where they saw a need. I'm sure you can guess how well that went over.
Thank you Becca!
That went over like a lead balloon.
Nice John, very entertaining.....Please people, if any organization, or any person makes you feel guilt, fear, or anger, get away as fast as you can. We are NOT suppose to be subjected to these controlling tactics.
“Joseph F. Smith was speaking as a man when he said that and it’s so important for members to pay tithing instead of their bills or buying food for their family because it proves their faithfulness to the church... I mean God... yeah that’s the line we use, right?”
So if you are unemployed due to Covid, living in AZ and receiving the amazing amount of $960/mon (before taxes) in UIB, you have a family of 8 that was previously living in a one income household and you are a tax-paying and Tithe-paying Mormon, you are still required to pay 10% of your extremely low UIB income to taxes as well as an additional 10% (before tax amount) to tithing. Not only that . . . You are not seen as a worthy member of the Mormon Church if you don’t pay tithing!
The manual says 10% of all our increase. Well after paying bills and groceries, I had 10 to spare, so they can have 10% of that.
Yep, 10% of gross income. Otherwise you're 'disobedient' in the eyes of the mormon god and aren't worthy for the Celestial kingdom. It's totally nuts. It's beyond nuts.
❤️🧡💛 I miss these short, educational, eye opening videos. I've just shared this video with my daughter who has recently chosen along side her husband to live a Muggle life style.
This video is awesome, this message is so important. Thank you for what you’re doing.
The last year I was active, in 1998, every Sunday was a talk about how tithing was tied to salvation. That's not why I left but the constant drain made it easier to separate myself. I was seeking love, acceptance and community. Approximately 1/4 of Sacrament meeting talks were dedicated to guilting me into choosing between food security or salvation. When I asked for support, they turned their backs on me. They are most certainly not helping anyone in need. Their church smelled like mold, so they weren't even providing a safe place to worship. When I was on my way out, I was ordered by the bishop to return home to my abusive father, to raise my son in that environment. No one cared or wanted to hear when I tried to explain why I was 3000 miles away from home because the son of the prophets was a monster and we were his victim. I've done well without the church and they seem to have done well without me. I guess nobody got hurt. Im glad it's time for everything to come out in the light for analysis.
I would really be interested in knowing who your father is. It sounds as if there are some very deep unresolved wounds.
@@rubarb0406 You are perceptive. If you're a Utah, Wyoming, or Arizona mormon you probably know my relatives. If you ever sat in church with us we appeared a perfect family. They were fanatic about missionary work, temple work, and home teaching. At home behind closed doors was quite different with much dysfunction - their wounds were never dealt with so they bled onto me and my siblings, and none of us are without deep scars. As a young adult I left and made my own life, and forgave them as much as I could. Tried to honor them by being a good person even if they didn't see it that way. Raised my child to be kind and loving. My parents have both passed away, buried in rural Utah. I've lived a pretty good life, but spending almost a year in quarantine with myself has revealed a lot that I didn't know then, or I thought it was just our family and not the entire church history. So the wounds have re-opened and I process things as they come, with the help of professionals. Thanks for asking. My name is from a Mormon pioneer. I am her descendant. Also descended from Brigham Young. Not that that will narrow it down for you. 😉
Thank you for shining the spotlight on this. I could relate way too much and I am in total agreement with you.
Wow...this brings it all back to me, we use to have a talk or lesson on Tithing at least every month or so...just that drip drip drip makes it sound like it's a great gift, coming from a very working-class branch in Scotland where money was tight, I never gave it much thought on how hard it was for most families I remember going on home visits with the branch president to talk to families who were struggling with paying their Tithings...I can't believe this...shocking!
Interestingly, when I was a bishop, I was asking the members how they were observing the law of tithing. I had members tell me all sorts of ways (like pay tithing on gifts, for example) to obey this law just to be on the safe side. When I went to the stake president for his views, it was again all distorted. On higher levels, it was always kept unclear except that it is a matter between the member and God. Of course, to be on the safe side, more than 10% of annual gross income was given by the members. I was asked by the stake to let the members decide.
You cannot have an active Temple Recommend if you do not pay tithing. So yes, the Mormon Church is about money.
Yup
LDS must tithe in order to be "worthy" to enter the Super VIP Mormon Heaven (Exaltation )
@@michaelorshantelc1016 and yet people have done those things for years, faithfully followed all the commandments etc and yet constantly suffer, the promises of the authorities falling flat at every test.
Under scientific conditions this is proof it isn't true at all.
All you have done is done special pleading.
When I was a teenager, i remember a friend's dad stressing out on whether the whole family had paid tithing for the past year, because they were going to get family sealed in the temple. It still blows my mind, just thinking about how concerned he was....they did end up getting sealed, though.
This is SO SAD. This has nothing to do with Christianity
@@joydurham5437 according to you, many other Christians would disagree. Many pastors around the globe espouse this view, many Christians support such a view.
And before you reply 'but the Bible says otherwise', these people use the Bible to and get the answers they want to support their view.
Maybe that should help you stop and think about your beliefs for a moment or two.
An inactive roommate of mine was struggling to pay his rent. He then received a cheque (we're Canadian) in the mail from the government that was the exact amount needed to pay his rent.
He said, "If I was active and paying tithing, I would TOTALLY go to church and bear my testimony about this in fast and testimony meeting right now." Haha, it's so true.
Of course members will still say, "But you could be blessed even MORE with spiritual blessings if you were paying your tithing!"
confirmation bias
Love this new channel and it’s format. I could write a letter a mile long on this subject.
if they showed this to an investigator they'd never have another convert
To quote one of my favorite Metallica songs
“Send me money, send me green, heaven you will meet. Make that contribution and you’ll get a better seat”
Bow to leper messiah!
Malachi 3:8. " Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me.....In tithes and offerings."
God was actually talking to the priests that were not only robbing God but an entire nation. people would bring tithes and offerings to the priests and the priests were stealing them from the storehouse and hoarding it all for themselves.
Even more importantly..... This tithing law was part of the old testament. According to LDS doctrine, we are no longer under the law of Moses because that was fulfilled in Christ and we are now under the law of Christ that does not require tithing. There are only two or three places in the New testament that mentioned tithing and they talked about not giving 10% and that the focus should not be on the exact 10% of everything but to focus more on devotion to Justice mercy and faith. In Luke, it was a Pharisee that was concerned about giving exactly 10% of his income to God and was criticized by Jesus.
Which chapter & verse in Luke? I'd like to read it. Thanks.
Amen!
Good ol' "Fire Insurance" as I was taught in seminary *eye roll*
Hey John, just dropping a line to say thanks for this series. Between you and RFM, my wife and I have found the eye-opening, easy-to-digest content we needed to walk away from TSCC. We're a little late to the party, but glad to be here nonetheless.
Welcome to the other side David. :) We're a bit more grizzled and a titch less organized than when we were in TSCC. But at the same time, I've found that what we lack in calculated love-bombing, we make up for over quite comfortably in sincerity and honesty.
Cheers to you both! And congrats :)
@@kelleren4840 Thank you! Leaving has meant leaving behind a lot of the emotional and spiritual pacifiers we'd clung to for most of our lives - and tbh it's a little terrifying. But, in turn, we're basking in the light of authenticity that we've been craving for so long.
It helps that the post-Mormon community is, for the most part, full of fantastically patient and empathetic people too :)
40 years for me!! Trying not to be bitter
When I left in 2015, I was angry with myself for not having figured it out earlier. It was different before the internet came along to reveal all. For at least ten years, I had been avoiding the truth.
I am glad you are too, my worthwhile fellow human! I wish you blessings of love, peace and prosperity.
Digital hi-five for taking care of you and yours!!!
My husband and I struggled terribly financially while we were members. We couldn't save or do anything we wanted. Once we left our financial health improved drastically. Tithing keeps the poor poor with the promise of blessings.
Love this ! Great job John! Nailed it ...and entertaining too.
Your information is incredible and your sense of humor makes it SO much more enjoyable!
I still get so triggered by the tone of these speakers. And so bloody angry when I hear (sometimes for the second or third time) the stories of the poor people being spiritually bludgeoned into handing over their money to these corporate sharks. Need extra blood-pressure tablet now. Thank you John. Good show.
Hi John. Love this format. You are awesome.
These videos are very powerful. They allow John to vent his passion for the subject. Entertaining dramatic expression. I find myself laughing and cheering. I'm an elderly person who left the Catholic Church over 50 years ago and still suffer from the effects of realizing so much taught to me was a lie. It's amazing to me that we believe implausible assertions our religious leaders teach us, and then, all of sudden we don't, and we wonder how we could have believed so many illogical ideas.
Awww! Thank you Patricia! So glad you are enjoying! Bless you!!!!
Loved the format of this video! John you are amazing!! It’s disgusting how the church exploits the poor and even children for their greed. You have to be a terrible person to want to take 10% of a child’s allowance.
Thank you! This is another winning video! Funny how all of us that leave the church never experience the decrease in "blessings" while "here on earth". Whats really crazy is how we all experience a magical increase of approximately 10% of "blessings" while "here on earth"...
Before I left the church I drank coffee everyday and never paid tithing. I was blessed anyway, even more blessed after leaving.
PREACH! How many little girls were robbed of a college education because their parents were paying tithing?
Me and my siblings 😫😫😫😫
Just wow! I wonder how Jesus would be acting? Remember how he acted outside the temple? He was pretty upset.
This is heartbreaking. In Christianity, we come to Jesus empty-handed. No exceptions. No money-giving changes our stance with God. God is not bribed by our charity. To say that your tithe determines your stance with God is a slap in the face of the one thing in this world that does redeem us and assure us of God’s love: Jesus’s life, death and resurrection.
Why would a wealthy church keep harping on paying tithes?
To make more money.
When I was a BYU student, I was grateful that tithing money was used to subsidize tuition for members. When I found out how much more money they had and donated less than 1% of their money to charity, I was upset. I bet the church could make BYU tuition free, since so many students struggle financially especially newlyweds with children.
Yes imagine if the church spent only 10% of its wealth on charitable causes, 10% seems like a familiar number 😂
I have a better idea for BYU... maybe they should simply close it. It is a fair school, but only a moderate quality school, certainly not a top rated school, especially in the hard sciences. You don't hear about Doctor this or that that did this great work and graduated from BYU. You just don't hear that because their program is geared to keep the graduates in the church, educated enough to get a good job and PAY TITHING. They require a cult like adherence to Mormonism. 4 years at BYU is like a 4 years mission. If they want to make it truly private, they should accept absolutely no funerial money, that means no government research grants, which is a life blood for the school.
I was taught that tithing comes after caring for yourself. I did not grow up Mormon, I grew up Catholic and am non-denominational Christian. Upsetting to see a church say things like this. If you're reading this, the God of Heaven loves you very much. He sent Jesus to die, rise again after 3 days and defeat death for us. The death we should have faced. Salvation is free ❤️
I love what you have done with my son's (Sparticusaurus Rex) video, John. Thank you for pushing it even further into the spotlight on RUclips. This really does expose the sickening emphasis the Church places on it's corporate income over empathetic understanding and aid to the plight of the poor members of this church. What a disgusting priority in this organization as well as that in other churches as shown by the John Oliver RUclips presentation on tithing.
Thank you!!! Wish I had known this when my ex and I were young, struggling parents.
There are so many poor and desperate people who are happily anticipating the Return of Jesus Christ.
But...when He is finally here...instead of blessing them with relief, He sets them on fire?
Holy crap John! The reactions are so great! 😂 I can't upvote this enough
Thanks, Bryce!
Absolutely LOVE this! So perfect!! John, you are my hero!💪
❤️
it’s insane how the second you understand the truth about the church nearly EVERYTHING feels manipulative and wrong. I am so upset knowing that I and so many others were so blind to these tactics. the manipulation is SO clear. I feel sick.
I'm a little behind in thanking you for this incredible video. Having just seen it this morning, my wife and I were humored and moved by the work you have done to try to make things right in this greedy church. Thanks to all the talented people who work with you to produce and present these quick effective messages such as this. We have been donating to your organization for a couple of years now and consider it money well worth spending rather than feeding this greedy manipulative corrupt organization. Please keep up this incredible worthwhile work.
Thank you so much D!!!!
And how many “consultants” and investors etc on City Creek Mall were guaranteed a no risk return on investment by tithing money. How many salaries,pensions and 401ks remained intact for the bankrupt life insurance company, funded by poor and destitute tithe payers who can’t buy shoes and food for themselves or their kids?
They only bailed out the insurance company once and it still failed, great ability to prophecy there 😂
Ouch!
@@shawnbradford2243 sounds a lot like the Sugar Beets and Kirtland Safety Society. Thank god for a profit (or lack of).
June Holley a couple people made money on the Kirkland anti-bank!
Very well done! Everything you said was valid, important and true. I love your new style of videos. This video certainly has many reference points and was very well researched. BTW, our family has a vacation home in Midway, I know of three GA that have vacation homes there. Guilt seems to be the culprit and driving point for paying tithing. How about everyone donates their time and money to whatever cause they choose, based on how much time and money they choose to donate.
My dad not paying tithing was a reason my family couldn’t be sealed and I remember feeling sad because I thought it was such a simple thing to do. But now I realize that my dad didn’t always pay tithing because he was trying to pay for electricity or gas bills. For him being as TBM as he is, I’m proud of him for providing for us over being a full tithe payer. We still ended up getting sealed, but not until the day before my wedding. But I’m glad our family was sealed when I was at an age that I could actually appreciate it the meaning of it.
Also this video is hilarious 😂
Wouldn't it be " Insider Trading " for Church Prophets to invest in the stock market?
Great video, John I am loving this new RUclips channel, and this one is my favorite so far, but I love them all.
Yay! So glad you like it Just the Facts!
Wow that was spot on. Well done John
Very good. It was difficult to watch because this is a subject that infuriates me. I am from Mexico, and many people who join the LDS church live on modest budgets that literally cover only the most basic needs. Having white privileged men who earn six figure salaries tell these people to pay tithing instead of properly feeding their families or else be burned during the second coming is about the most immoral and vile thing you can do to someone who trusts you. I really have a hard time keeping my cool when this subject arises and some idiot Mormon starts preaching and defending this vile requirement. But I watched it all and I think it is extremely important that this material exists to help others understand what LDS priorities are and how brutally abusive they can be just to obtain more and more money, knowing well they are sitting on obscene amounts of it already.
Thank you for the work you do on making these videos possible.
Thank you Manuel!
Dear John Dehlin and your “faithful” listeners,
Re: Breaks or jumps in the video.
I am the compiler of the tithing video John is responding to. At the time that I made it, I wanted to remain anonymous and created that youtube account for that purpose. I made a file of LDS quotes on many many topics for which I wanted to make similar videos, but found that while making this one, it is a lot more work than it seems. For one thing, there is a much higher percentage of talks in the conference reports that don’t match what is actually said, than any of us realize. This should come as no surprise, given what we know happened with the Ronald Poelman 1984 debacle.
Anyway, I cannot remember my login credentials for that youtube channel now or I would add this same disclaimer to that video:
You will notice slight jumps in the video where text the LDS church would insert [...] in the text. For example:
-Tithing will keep your name enrolled among the people of God and protect you in “the day of vengeance and burning.”
I shortened the above line to say:
- “Tithing will [...] protect you in the day of vengeance and burning.”
You will notice that this does not alter the meaning. Tithing did the saving either way. This is the proper use of ellipses. I did this in order to get as much material into the video as possible without losing the attention of every single person who tries to watch it. I only scratched the surface of how much tithing material has been presented in General Conference.
Contrast this with the way the church uses ellipses:
Original quote by Lorenzo Snow: “...every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing…”
Lorenzo Snow quote as used by the church in manuals and talks: “...every man, woman and child … shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing….”
Note that the meaning of the quote is changed substantially by the [...] exclusion. This is a very common theme when using Brigham Young quotes on the nature of the Godhead in order to erase the fact that the only doctrine he ever taught was that Adam was God. I think researching the [...] in church manuals and other materials may have been one of the biggest impetuses to lead me out of the church.
This video of John’s has had more views in the past 2 weeks than mine has had in the many years since I posted it. I don’t care in the slightest. Whatever gives the most exposure to these manipulative extortionists is for the greatest good. Not to mention, John’s commentary and facial expressions are hilarious.
Oh my goodness. Member here for 57 years. In those years I ALWAYS Felt I had to pay tithing or something terrible (not just bad but terrible) would happen to me or my children. I was so brainwashed by the church.
Joseph Smith understood these concepts...
"If you want to earn little money, write a book. If you want to make a lot of money, create a religion." - L Ron Hubbard
"I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is" - George Orwell
Well put!
Not to mention that the General Authorities don’t pay tithing because they receive a stipend
As a missionary in Colombia,1978 -1980, we were told to talk to men in suits. Leaders and money. Good business model. The field is white already to harvest. Especially white men with money.
Brett, read his scripture! :)
You did a great job with your seemingly innocent interview questions to expose the double bind messages of the Church leaders. Great editing too.
Two days after this video was released, apostle Ronald Rasband gives a talk in General Conference about how great temple recommend interviews are. These are the interviews where they ask if you are paying your full tithing, and if you say no, you are denied access to the temple. Coincidence?
Well done John. It's definitely a prosperity gospel.
They call tithing 'Fire Insurance', if you pay your tithing they say you won't be 'burned to stubble' in the second coming they say. Think I'm kidding, go to the church's website and do a search for 'fire insurance'.
Just Wow! So very UN- Christlike!
Provided that the context of JFS's quote can be argued that he is saying that the tithes will cover the costs so donations aren't necessary I think it would have been wise to have also included the quote where a LDS leader said that 10% is only required for those that have the means. This quote was later modified to remove the "that have the means" part. John knows what I am talking about I am sure. I think that one is as black and white as it gets that the LDS Church never considered it mandatory initially.
"Required donations" use to be more than just tithing. We use to pay an extra amount in "ward budget." That ended sometime in the 80's when the church announced that tithing donations could now cover those expenses. That's what Joseph F. Smith was talking about and it did happen. Paying tithing is a sacrifice we give to God. If the church misuses it, that's on them; we have still proven our faith and will be blessed. Our faith blesses us not our money.
@@eliza619 That's exactly what they want you to believe. See I refuse to believe that God wanted its members to support the prophets and church leaders pre-1978 when they declared by direct commandment of the Lord that the blacks weren't worthy to hold the priesthood and subsequently be sealed to their families for all eternity. But based on your comment it's as clear as water you would have loved to support what has now been declared as false teachings/doctrines and supported what the LDS church has itself declared was racism, because "blessings for being faithful" not your fault they taught false doctrines but listen to them anyways. Yeah Susan be blessed for being racist because it wasn't your fault for blindly following false teachings. Meanwhile I praise those who actually refused to have "faith" and be "obedient" before 1978 and took a stance against the false teachings. A few years ago I let my bishop know I would be donating my 10% directly to family in need and would even give proof if that was required to pay an honest tithe and while I was "allowed" to do it I was denied a temple recommend for it. These family members even asked for assistance and were turned down. Can we stop pretending Christ asked his apostles to do anything besides preach his gospel and extend an invitation after his death? The LDS prophets literally fit the false prophet definition exactly as described in the bible.
Susan Ethington so you renamed it all tithe and called it good? And your not counting fast offering and other offerings called for missions and special purposes.
Ugh hearing all those quotes about "paying tithing will make you financially stable" feel so slimy to me now. The revelations on the $100 billion+ investment fund make it even worse. When I told my parents I don't believe anymore, one of their first questions was "are you still paying your tithing?". Can't believe I used to think those same things. I haven't paid my tithing in more than two years and am more financially stable than ever!
Just curious, how do you suggest paying tithing? Is it a commandment or not? Not asking for a repeat of the 582 comments below about the Church.
I WOKE UP 12 YEARS AGO NOW WE PAY TITHING TO A FAMILY THAT REALLY NEEDS HELP THEY LIVE AT ECUADOR ANDES MOUNTAINS
They told my parents not to by food and pay tithes. So I went hungry. 😢
That doesn't make sense. The church has lots of food for needy members.
They might “ have it “ but they hoard it . One has to be temple worthy to get. It isn’t Christian. Why are the areas with the highest lds go without the most ? Dude . I am a long time volunteer at food banks all around me . I know the truth about hunger in these areas. The food the Mormons say they give out is horse crap
LA MB yes they have several hundred billions of dollars, shouldn’t they save the souls of men?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_history
Seems they could preach to billions of people with their billions of dollars, yet they keep it in for profit business that church leaders get Rick off of.
Elder Orson Hyde (President of the Quorum of the Twelve):
If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother's and children's bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world's good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father.
Is this the same man that Joseph Smith married his wife after sending him on a mission?
Not necessarily true. In-fact likely not true at all. While a script journal entry of a few of Joseph Smith's plural wives was recorded in a Journal as "Apri 42" (When Hyde was on a mission to Jerusalem), written on July 14th, 1843.
However, there is in-fact actually a signed affidavit by Marinda stating that she was sealed to Joseph in May of 1843, at the City of Nauvoo, County of Hancock, State of Illinois. This is further supported from statements by Miranda and others (John D. Lee for example) that "Orson gave his consent" and even some evidence that he was even present at the sealing.....
Generally a signed affidavit is considered more reliable than an entry in a journal by a scribe from an unknown source, but whether the first date is in error or two sealing ceremonies were performed is unclear.
Further, Orson appealed to Joseph to perform his own plural marriage weeks after returning from his mission, stating in 1869: “In the month of February or March, 1843, I was married to Miss Martha R. Browitt, by Joseph Smith, the martyred prophet, and by him she was sealed to me for time and all eternity in Nauvoo, Illinois.”
Further still, Both Miranda and Orson Hyde remained a devout, faithful members of the church until their deaths in 1886 and 1978, respectively.
So, in conclusion, there is little if any evidence that this was "done in secret while Orson was on his mission" and had no knowledge or input about this. There is far more evidence to support the story of a latter sealing date, with at least consent from her husband. Again it is also very important to realize this as a "sealing for eternity only" (for which it is in like manner recorded as such), not the same as a typical marriage for "time and eternity" (traditional marriage).
Chris Humphries please cite your sources
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Hyde
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_wives
And yes Orson stayed because he also married 8 others and was well taken care of by the church. It’s like saying Jim Jones was great because so many people drank the kool aid
@@shawnbradford2243 I will happily cite my sources. But first, and I sincerely don't say this with any kind of malice, but the irony of you then citing two Wikipedia pages is quite interesting. Anyone in the academic realm does not, and would never use Wikipedia as a credible source. Just as pure friendly advice (and I really do sincerely mean that), I would not ever use Wikipedia as my primary source in any meaningful academic discussion.
Here are my references:
1. www.josephsmithpapers.org/person/marinda-nancy-johnson-hyde (Compiled by academic church historians)
2. josephsmithspolygamy.org/plural-wives-overview/marinda-nancy-johnson/ (Written by Brian Hales, a foremost authority in Joseph Smith's polygamy).
3. www.churchhistorianspress.org/the-first-fifty-years-of-relief-society/people/marinda-nancy-johnson-hyde?letter=H&lang=eng#8
4. Joseph F. Smith Affidavit Books, 1:15, 4:15, CHL. (The actual affidavit from her stating that the sealing was a year later).
My point was, the evidence more fully points this date discrepancy to a recording error by Thomas Bullock (but this error, as with any error, is hoisted on a flagpole by those antagonistic to the church as "proof" of some foul point they would proport). In this case we have the actual affidavit of Marinda herself (sorry Wikipedia,... looks like you didn't have all the facts).
So there are two options. 1) The dates were wrong and there was only one sealing, or 2) There were in fact two sealings. If point one is true, then this is a mute discussion. The antagonists of the church are simply incorrect and this whole thing is a non-issue. If point 2 is true, then we must still assume we don't have all the facts (as we clearly don't!) and condemning Joseph, weather you like him or not, is still decidedly premature. However, if there was fallout or evidence of some nefarious act by Joseph, then one would expect to find it without much effort. The fact is, there isn't any. And that was my point. Both Orson, who you say was "well-taken care of" by the church (insinuating financial incentive; care to site your source?) and Marinda had no fallout, problems or otherwise if Joseph was sealed to her in secret. There is simply no evidence of such. Finally, whether she was sealed to Joseph at the earlier date, we still see this recorded as an "eternity only" sealing. Two kinds of sealing were performed in Joseph's time: Time and Eternity, and Eternity Only. Though Eternity Only sealings are not fully understood (as they were only performed in that time), the preponderance of evidence suggests that these were in no way traditional "marriages" and as clearly indicated, they are of no effect in this life at all. We don't really know why Joseph performed a number of these "Eternity Only" sealings. Speculation abounds, but these in no way seem to be nefarious in nature.
Again my point is, if you want to throw out antiLDS propaganda and talking points, then you must at least come to know all the facts and acknowledge all of the facts. This "He married Orson's wife while he was on a mission" is nonsense. It sounds flashy, it sounds incriminating, but the facts don't line up neatly at all. Were is the fallout? Why two recorded sealing dates (one being a legal affidavit and one a journal entry)? Why sealed for eternity only vs time and eternity?
Unfortunately there are still many questions. I myself dream of the day when we will have all the answers. But until that day I must ask myself where to place my faith. Is Jesus Christ really the Son of God? Do we have a loving Heavenly Father that is actually a parent to us? Will justice ultimately come to all nations, kindreds tongues and people and all wrongs be righted? Did God really call a prophet in our day to increase faith and goodness throughout the world in preparation for His second coming? How do these things impact who I am and am choosing to become? These are the important questions for me. This is what matters. Either Joseph is a prophet or not. But I have too many evidences from God to deny it. I find my faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ increases daily, I find that I am a better person as I repent and live by faith, trusting in God. I find that the Book of Mormon is a powerful volume with real spiritual power in my life. I know Joseph was a prophet because I have studied, prayed and received my own personal witness and revelation from God. I invite you to the same.
Chris Humphries ah excellent job attacking my intelligence! Wikipedia is just an online encyclopedia, yes it is a general source and you must read cited sources on the bottom. But that was a very christ like underhand comment!
I just started picking up your You Tube stuff. This is f'n great!! Love the hat. You should make them available for purchase.
“Why don’t YOU pay your tithing,” made me look like a crazy person when I burst out laughing in public.
Amen!!!!! I hope they hear this loud and clear. Love these videos. Thanks for all you do.
I also want ALL my tithing back when I submit my resignation from the church. Lol. I wish. Imagine how many people would leave if that could happen...
Humor makes hard things easier. Love this❤️
Thanks, Emily!
I really dislike when the Lord's anointed use made up statistics. Ones like, "People who pay their tithing tend to be more prosperous, happy, etc etc".
Based on what statistical data, Elder Oaks?
I'd hazzard a gues that, considering location, heritage, demographics, education, etc, there is no statistical backing whatsoever for this claim. It is wishfull thinking, initiated by Biblical folklore, designed to extract wealth for their ancient endeavours.
You are so restrained and kind hearted, I was was raised to be this way also but “ Elder “ Oaks is unrepentant and evil liar.
I am curious, who is paying for the restoration of the Salt Lake Temple? Beautiful landmark, but who is paying the bill?