This pilot can’t fly IFR because his “iPad has died”.. LOST IN INSTRUMENT APPROACH
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- Опубликовано: 5 фев 2024
- The Mooney pilot executed an RNAV08 instrument approach at Martinsburg Regional Airport, WV, relying solely on an iPad due to the inoperability of the on-board NAV approach instrument. Consequently, the pilot struggled to effectively adhere to ATC instructions, resulting in a challenging situation for both parties. Despite the pilot's difficulties, ATC demonstrated commendable professionalism by efficiently managing the situation and providing effective guidance.
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That is exactly how a frustrated controller should act. No threats for a phone call, no berating. He was clearly frustrated, and rightly so. The Mooney pilot, on the other hand, had no business filing an IFR flight plan if his certified equipment was down, or didn't exist. I'm sure he'll get a visit from Mr. FSDO...
The controller should be calm until the aircraft lands, lives over attitude. Once the plane lands then the issues can be discussed.
He was super calm!
@@Boodieman72 exactly
@@Boodieman72 not over the frequency though. That would be inappropriate and unprofessional which is why they give you a phone number to call.
@@Flight_Follower BS, he was giving the pilot a HARD time, the WHOLE time... repeatedly, telling him about how long he's been talking and trying, telling him about how slow he's been talking, telling him how he might get into trouble if he helps him, and then, GAWD, having a conversation on the radio with other pilots about might be legal to help the pilot. JEEZ, that is not being calm and it is certainly NOT helping the pilot remain calm. Get the guy down, acknowledge unusual requests, offer unusual help, THEN have the conversation.
“I can fly IFR! (If I have my Etch-a-Sketch).
*hits turbulence*
"can't fly IFR, my etch a sketch died."
You can only fly non-precision approaches with an Etch-A-Sketch. It's too hard to draw the 3° glidepaths on the precision approaches. But, you can draw the stepdowns at each waypoint on a non-precision approach.
@@speedyretreat or maybe to turbulent and etch a sketch keeps erasing my approach
Till you hit some turbulence and it gets erased... that's why I always keep a backup Viewmaster!
The backup view master saved my life! My first backup was a Spirograph but I was getting dizzy 😵 @@rsrt6910
ATC was working hard to save this man's life. The fact that the controller was also a pilot was a huge benefit in this scenario. Well done sir!
it is mandatory in some countries - you even get a specific additional pay every year to maintain your certifications, at least PPL. @@MikesDIY
@@MikesDIY There are lots of ATC who have never flown an airplane. A lot of them just have no interest in the flying aspect.
@@littlec916 100%, even more when in some countries ATC has a better salary than pilots
Yes, and others' lives too!
Somethings I’ve been suggesting for years. All pilots as part of their training should spend some time in an ATC centre/tower, and all trainee ATCs should have jumpseat flights. It would be incredibly beneficial for both parties to gain a personal experience and understanding of the demands of both of our demanding professions.
That Pilot was VERY lucky to have such a competent and knowledgeable Controller. I think a Phone Call or Letter is needed with a Plan to re-eavualte the Piots IR knowledge. He was also lucky the weather gave him a margin of chance. That was not pleasant to listen too. Great Controller!
Great controller indeed! He was very patient in how he handled the situation
not his knowledge perhaps but his ability to give a shit.
Thats some way to put it!
I would bet the controller absolutely knew the pilot couldn't shoot that landing with an iPad. If I had to put money down, I think his expressed "confusion" was simply to save the pilot some embarrassment over 20+ minutes of complete fukkery on an open call.@@captainkttyhwk
I think he doesnt have an IR.
The scariest part about this is how he said "my ipad tells me when im over the fix"
And the well known aviation terminology: junk
@rudiklein tbh I think he was saying "junction" which would make sense
@@devingraves8044 I say: plausible
Nothing like coming right out and saying that his iPad was his sole navigation source and putting it on the tape. A 709 ride is clearly justified... a strong case could be made for "careless and reckless operation".
"Junction" is not any IFR terminology I've ever heard before.@@devingraves8044
Another shoutout to the ATC guy. He was pretty frustrated at first (and rightfully so), but quickly realized that this Pilot is not trying to be lazy, but he is simply in over his head. Put the frustration aside and focused on getting this pilot down safely. Great job here!
The "over" from ATC was perfect passive aggressive to get this pilot to communicate.
This was my first thought 30 seconds in and I came here looking for this comment!
Yup. I was thinking the same thing.
It's not that he wasn't responding, he just wasn't navigating correctly. The reason why you are not catching all of his responses is due to how frequencies work. Atc Heard it though
@@komrad1983 maybe you should rewatch ATC's responses again as he clearly spelled-out the numerous instances HE didn't hear a correct c/b.
@@wjatube yea, watch it again too, 3 rd transmission to that AC is atc response "no sir, I need you....bla blah... Atc doesn't talk to himself as well as when there is no response it's different things they say, according to their rules.
WOW! This ATC has infinite patience. He could have easily said, nope, no VFR landings today, find an alternate with better weather, but he didn't. Kudos to the ATC, the pilot should have a phone number to write down and ANY instrument rating should be reviewed heavily, if not outright revoked until he is proficient in IFR procedures and rules!
Couldn’t agree more
I don't think this pilot was ever IFR rated. But anyways if ceiling was 1900 broken no reason not to cancel IFR you can handle all the legal drama and frustrations on the ground. Main thing is getting that guy down safe and not stressing him out more than he already is. Guy had no clue on any of his instruments. Shit I can fly an ILS to 1k without ever using the ILS needles just using the 430 heading indicator. It's good practice if your steam ever fail.
If this pilot was IFR rated his instructor and examiner need to be checked and all their students should probably be checked also.
I don't think that pilot has an instrument rating. Every question the controller asked him that had any IFR terminology was met with silence. The only thing this guy knows about IFR is you need an approach plate. All he had to do was follow the controller's vectors to intercept the approach course. The controller was literally holding his hand and he couldn't do it. It really sounded like this might be his first instrument approach attempt ever.
agree all!
What a patient, professional and humble controller. When the other pilot said "great job" the controller said "we will see, he is not on the ground yet" . as frustrated as he was he put that pilots life first
Few rude and impatient controllers may take some lesson out of it
@@Flight_Follower I have a lot of respect for ATC, the workload can be overwhelming and mistakes can cost lives
I have a lot of respect for ATC too.. but sometimes some of them tend to get very rude which is uncalled for
@@Flight_Follower It is sad and unprofessional when ATC and even pilots get mouthy over the air. it helps no one. There was a pilot and ATC conversation that got out of hand and another controller took over to calm things down. There have even been some instances of other pilots chiming in to ease tensions. It is pleasant when everyone works together.
If this pilot doesn’t seek controller out and buy him dinner he’s an ungrateful SOB.
That controller definitely understands that the top priority is to ensure that people get on the ground safely. Even after offering a better solution to the pilot, he told him: if that doesn't work out, don't hesitate to call me back.". Thumb's up, he might have save a live.
Im pretty sure he was saying he had his approach plates on his iPad. He is 100% correct that he cant fly the approach without the approch plate. That being said, using the GPS function on foreflight to see GPS location on the approach plate is strictly only for supplemental/additional awareness. Not for primary source of navigation.
I believe part 91.503 wherein it specifies "aeronautical charts" applies to "Large and turbine-powered multiengine aircraft". See title of sub-section F. In addition, in subpart C there is no mention of charts like there is in subpart F. So sadly charts are not required for part 91 flight in aircraft under 12500 lbs, but every cfi would strongly council their use. Even a ramp check by the FAA does not include a check for charts under part 91, small aircraft.
@@GreenGuyDIY im almost certain that if the FAA ever found out you flew an instrument approach without the corresponding instrument approach plate onboard, they will hit you with violating 91.13 , at the bare minimum.
Actually for part 91 flights under 12500 lbs - no. I am not saying it is a good idea. But consider the case a pilot can prove perfect knowledge of the applicable approach and flies the approach without having the plate or chart in view. Much like going out and flying patterns without a chart because one might be intimately familiar with the airport. Reckless operation is kind of a catch and would only result if there was damage to property or persons or an aggregious pilot deviation. Personally, I never trust my memory and always verify with whatever is applicable. Even just doing pattern work, I have the airport diagram out along with my notes of current weather and always check notams and TFRs prior to flight.
@@GreenGuyDIY if you shoot an instrument approach in IMC under a Part 91 operation without a chart, you are flying unsafe in my opinion.
Agreed!
Shout out to the controller! Great deal of patience and professionalism!
It really is!
and i love how all the veteran pilots on frequency always chime in. they're always so helpful and succinct and professional
WOW, you are NOT going to get that kind of ATC hand-holding in the ultra-busy Northeast corridor. 2nd time you miss ANY NAV waypoint and they're gonna divert your ass to some podunk field in Western NY/NJ/MA... good thing this lost Mooney pilot was in WV.
As a MA resident, i can confirm.
Everything from crop dusters and paramotors, to transatlantic and transpacific, lands at, takes off from, AND passes through, this corridor.
Way too much activity for so many missed rnavs to be allowed at any one place.
Everything is better in West, "By God" Virginia!
I’ve worked as a controller in the busy Denver area and New England and have provided patient professional ATC service to many pilots experiencing difficulties always to a positive outcome. And I have been a supervisor to many other controllers doing the same.
How did this get an IFR clearance, or was he was lying when he said "capable" just to be "polite". This is one of the most bizzare and potentially lethal encounters I've ever heard. Imagine if a giant 737 was like "lol my ipad died, can we just try to land?"
I don't seem to remember anything on a flight plan form that asks about the pilot being "capable." Nor have I ever copied a clearance only to be asked that question. Has something changed?
@@Tom-zs6bbDoes this Mooney have at least old analog instruments? I mean pilot should be able to use them and navigate as ATC advised?
@@The_Touring_Jedi I wouldn't know.
@@Tom-zs6bbThat Mooney probably have analog but the big question is were they calibrated and proper functioning. Even a non IFR rated pilot should be at least able to perform this task with ease using analog and ATC instruction. People are using to much modern technology today.ATC can bring safe any pilot using only analog from IFR to VFR aproach. This is for sure.
Pretty sure this guy was neither IFR-rated nor the plane IFR-capable.
I think what he meant was that he didn’t have the plate with the approach fix names, coupled with not knowing how to load them into the equipment. When I took my ride, it consisted of shooting 4 very fast paced approaches to induce a scenario you likely wouldn’t see in the real world. Training is paramount
At this point he should've had the approach loaded into the avionics and it should've been simple to fly the approach from there. He couldn't even go Direct to JOSRU.
This is why you gotta be proficient in the equipment you're using before you fly. if you've only flown round dials and you get into a G1000? you're FUCKED. Same as other way around. my PPC training was in a 6 pack, then i switched to G1000, and have been flying glass for the past 200 hours. if i was going to fly a 6 pack again, id want training from a cfi familiar with them first.
Even if he doesn't have any plates, he should be able to ask to spell the JOSRU intersection at least he can do direct to there. Sounds like he is not proficient with his avionics
I want to say that The ATC has a very respectable and well as very big responsibility to getting pilots to where they need to go and I want to say he was very much appreciated in performing his job as a professional Air traffic controller to guide the Mooney to his destination in IMC conditions. Keep your IPad plugged in at all times and paper Approach plates for backup.
"It's the controllers responsibility to get pilots where they need to go". WHAT in the world?????
@@scotabot7826He meant at aproach cause of traffic...
Paper approach plates are not required, but a back up battery may be.
> Keep your IPad plugged in at all times
Again, you cannot legally shoot this approach with an iPad. The iPad isn't going to turn the A/C to JOSRU. You're supposed to fly with nav equipment.
It’s the pilots’ responsibility to navigate. ATC can grant clearances and vector flights to specific legs/segments of charted routes and procedures. The only time that they should be expected to provide any other navigational support is when there has been an emergency declared. Since an iPad is not official navigational equipment, a dead battery is not an emergency.
To fly an RNAV approach, the pilot is required to have a functional and up-to-date aircraft GPS receiver with the appropriate waypoints installed. Most modern GPS receivers would even have the procedures programmed into them. While, flying an approach without appropriate charts is technically not allowed, in a pinch, it can still be able to be done with just the aircraft’s GPS. You can request the chart specifics from ATC.
At first I thought he was just using his iPad for the plates but now I'm not sure he had any IFR capable equipment in the plane at all, or perhaps he was so frazzled by the end that he couldn't even put an ILS frequency in.
Probably, he had, but did not know how to use it, and was using his iPad to active or load an approach to his equipment.
I hope for him it was something like that... It's at least the best case scenario I could give out of that terrible scenario...
@@glujaz I had the same thought. I am quite convinced that his aircraft was IFR capable but he himself wasn't and he simply didn't know how to use his plane under IFR.
@@LeTangKichiro he might be IFR as well, but just didn't know how that equipment worked, because he was used to a GTN750, but that aircraft was using a GNS 530 (with the stupid thing to connect an iPad though, which is not very common 🤣 )
@@glujazif you don’t know how to use the avionics in the airplane then don’t fly IFR.
@@dcviper985 How about 'don't fly at all?'
This pilot needs a “709” ride!!
What's a 709 ride
@@doctriestosew4333 Great question! When the FAA has reason to believe an airman's competency is in question or an aircraft does not meet FAA standards, they can request a reexamination of an airman's abilities or or reinspection of an aircraft under U.S. § 44709 (below), commonly referred to as a “709 Check Ride”.
@@SierraBravo7970 sounds like a 709 would be a good idea before something tragic happens. Thanks for answering!
That’d make him poop his pants.
ForeFlight has more info than many IFR certified GPS units but it still can’t fly an approach. Having an IFR rating isn’t as important as being current in that rating. A non current IFR pilot can be dangerous. I see it periodically as a pilot myself
just curious, how is not being current so bad? Other than perhaps maybe you forgot a procedure? Do they change so often etc? Or what is the reason?
@@OnceShy_TwiceBittenflying just like any other complex task has a lot of muscle memory when it comes to procedures. If you don't fly regularly, you're going to get rusty, and you're going to either miss procedures or perform them incorrectly because it's been so long and if you're not flying with somebody else or an instructor, that can become very dangerous.
@@OnceShy_TwiceBittencurrency is a legal term when it comes to IFR flying.
@OnceShy_TwiceBitten Being current means you are legally able to file an IFR flight plan and fly in the system. If you are not current you are not legally able to file or fly. And need to go up with another pilot (safety pilot or instructor) OR do an IPC (Instrument Proficiency check).
Flying IFR is not something you can walk away from for months to years and then just safely fly.
In this pilots case we don't have all the information. It appears he has an IFR certified GPS on board, but was using his iPad for the approach plates (which is legal).
However it's also possible he did NOT have an IFR certified GPS on board and was using the iPad to identify all the fixes, which is 100% not legal 🤔
@@Vejitasei I couldn't tell. At first, it sounded to me like he was just bringing up the approach plates on his iPad. But later, it sounded like maybe his on-board GPS wasn't working, so he was trying to shoot the RNAV with just ForeFlight? If that the case, I really wouldn't want to try that around KMRB with IMC down to 1600 or whatever approach said. Lots of obstructions around there.
Mooney should have hit his alternate and sorted it out on the ground.
I think the problem here was without the iPad, he didnt have access to the approach charts, and thus wouldn't know how to fly the RNAV or other important info like decision altitudes and missed approaches etc. He's probably also using the iPad to load the approach. All of this wasn't being communicated very well though. With a cloud base of 1900, they could have just vectored him to final. But also, he should have a backup iPad or paper charts for this exact reason.
They asked him if he wanted an ILS, they could have just vectored him to a fix and he could have followed ILS in which should have been fine didn't sound like there were anywhere near minimums, I think the pilot has been to reliant on the IPAD for situational awareness
@@khabbadyes, but you still need the chart to know your minimums, decent angle, MA procedure, etc. Charts are very important and having access to them are a priority. If that means printing them out for every flight, then so be it.
@@jacobbaumgardner3406 I don’t disagree but in this specific situation they could have vectored him into the ILS, the pilot even wanted to try vfr so we know the conditions were not that bad, he could have used the ILS to get there
@@khabbad yes, for the sake of safety in an emergency that can be done, but I mean that even if you’re on the glide slope you still haven’t briefed the plate, so you don’t know the minimums for your cat, nor any other procedures that will be necessary. He should’ve had them printed out, which honestly we should all do more often, myself included.
@@jacobbaumgardner3406 and I gotcha, and totally agree, I simply meant in this instance where once he’s establish on the localized and follows the slope he would have a visual long before minimums
An IFR capable GPS will have the ability to recognize and identify a RNAV waypoint. Foreflight or Garmin Pilot are are just aids to help us navigate but final call comes from a built in GPS
Yeah but he'll still need a plate to know MDA, missed procedures, lighting, etc. Every DPE asks students nowadays what they'll do when their iPad fails. Most students have a backup iPad charged and ready. I took it further and paid to have paper copies of everything, including approaches for my origin, destination, and alternates all ready on my lap. Pilots like the one in the video are why GA is such a deadly hobby.
@@WestAirAviation I'm not a pilot (one day, maybe!)... but I have to say I don't think I could ever imagine trusting even a 'backup iPad' in this situation. I don't think i'd feel comfortable unless I had at least some charts tucked away in the plane. I dunno maybe i'm getting old or something, but theres just something very reassuring about knowing you have physical data available if needed.
I think he has the iPad for situational awareness and over time became overly reliant on it and allowed his proficiency with the built in equipment to lapse and started using the iPad exclusively.
Then it died and he didn’t know how to fly without it.
@@tylerbrown4483This is probably what happened. Became too reliant on the iPad because it just worked and forgot to touch up on his skills flying with the Ifr equipment onboard, tried plugging in the approach but forgot how.
You shouldn't even solely rely on any GPS even. Always bring paper charts as the ultimate back-up.
Remember, GPS is just a gift to us from the U.S. airfoce (now Space Force). They still can do whatever they want with it.
Also GPS is easily jammed, as we see what's happening right now in Eastern Europe and Ukraine.
GPS is an amazing tool, but always stay proficient in flying without it in case it fails. No matter if it's an iPad or iFR rated GPS avionics.
I'm going to hear "fly direct to JOSRU" in my sleep tonight and it's going to wake me up in a cold sweat.
😂😂😂
you crack me up! :o)
Fantastic work from the ATC. He dealt with a frustrating situation very professionally
Bravo au contrôleur !
As a French commercial pilot, I appreciate that you stayed very calm and professional with this « pilot ».
it was good to see the ATC guy able to calm himself down and go with the flow to simply play along with the inexperienced/unprepared pilot although it was a strange situation for him. at first it almost seemed like he was going to get nasty the entire time, but he made his point that it wasnt acceptable and then calmed down and did his job.
95% of the time I always had pleasant exchanges with ATC when I messed up. This guy was great!
Professional ATC. Outstanding work.
I thoroughly enjoyed this episode!
Thank you
This is the second time I have listened to this. The first time I thought he was using his iPad to navigate. This doesn’t appear to be the case. What I’m guessing now is that his iPad is a crutch and his situational awareness is limited without it. Additionally, without the approach chart and if he only has one gps, he might not be able to locate any waypoints not included on the approach when the approach is selected
I think you are right.
He has gotten so used to using the ipad, he has forgotten how to use the aircraft instruments proficiently.
His stress level went really high when the ipad died and he couldn't focus clearly to do basic IFR nav
I think this is correct. He was a rabbit in the headlights - but he could / should have made that clear. The aircraft is IFR capable. But that doesn't explain why he wouldn't navigate to the heading he was given. ATC threw him a bone by saying that he can navigate to that point and they will give him ILS or something.
@@dr_jaymz You are correct. ATC did throw him a bone which he probable heard but did his stressed brain assimilate what had just been said to him.
He could be up in the clouds, tunnel vision, trying to plug in a broken charger. Peoples brain patterns change hugely under stress
can you not ask ATC to spell the fix, and then go "direct fix" in the gps?
Extremely disturbing to listen too. Best case scenario, this pilot has an IFR certified GPS and was using the iPad for the approach plates. However, his failure to comply with turns and ID fixes, strongly hints that he might not have an IFR certified GPS.
He probably couldn't visualize the approach without the plates on his iPad. He likely couldn't make sense of the info his GPS was giving him. He needs another IFR checkride.
I hope he is IFR Rated. Not just saying he is. But someone needs to validate it’s the case. Imagine flying into a busy airspace the chaos this would cause. What an incredible controller.
You mean like Bing maps?
@@halcyonzenith4411 ??? Not sure what your question is. But no, no like bing maps. There are special FAA aviation maps published every 28 days, as well as, airport information and procedures.
Almost no one uses the paper maps anymore. Most use digital copies on a phone or tablet. This has the added advantage of showing your location directly on the map (this is called a georeferenced map).
To fly an instrument approach you also need the approach procedure, sometimes called the approach plate. Again, most people do NOT have the paper copies of these plates (there are hundreds of them), so they have a digital copy (which is also georeferenced) on their phone or tablet.
In order to fly an instrument approach you MUST have certain approved equipment. Not any GPS will do, it must be a panel mounted IFR approved GPS (you also need a course deviation indicator and other equipment). You can use the tablet for the approach plate, but you can NOT use the tablet as the GPS source or primary navigation.
In this guys case I suspect one of two things happened: 1) He was using the tablet for the plates and had an IFR approved GPS, but the plate tells you how to fly the approach (the GPS confirms you are doing it). 2) He did NOT have an IFR approved GPS and was using the tablet for the entire IFR approach.
Aside: In the plane I fly to avoid this I have dual 10" screens. Each can show the map and/or the approach plates. And I keep an iPad for backup. This guys appears to have no redundancy and likely was not even legal...
or a lack of familiarity with his GPS system.
I really appreciate how the controller continued to follow up to see if his own knowledge was incorrect. He was right, he was sure he was right, and he still went and double checked to make sure
Excellent atc, so helpfull even though that was frustratingly bad.
Pilot in training here....This is astonishing...I'm not even into my instrument rating! My school teaches navigation via paper charts, VOR's, etc. GPS is a luxury. Your iPad is a LUXURY! Only thing they let me use my iPad for is to electronically log my flights It's not even connected to the PFD. It's left running in the background and sitting in my bag. What this pilot is dealing with, is taught in PP school (at least at my school). It's part of the short amount of IFR training you get in the inadvertent case you find yourself in IFR conditions.
Back in my day we landed on gravel runways with just a magnet on a string.
I haven't done part 91 flying in forever but are iPads a legal substitute for paper plates in the GA world? Airlines obviously allow it (those where EFBs are approved) but we have two iPads in the cockpit and we also use Jepps (FliteDeck Pro X).
GPS is not a luxury, it is minimum equipment for an RNAV approach.
How do you get an IFR license when you don't even know how to use the IFR gear in the aircraft? WTF is going on with the FAA lately?
Shocking isn’t it
no child left behind.
Seems that if you have the coin to buy a pricey bird, the FBO/Flight School/Dealer is going to "push you through"! #ParticipationTrophy
You're assuming a lot. He might not have his rating, he might not be instrument current. If his iPad is dead, he does not have approach plates, so he can't fly an approach without declaring an emergency.
Inclusivity baby! Everyone gets a trophy!
This controller deserves much praise!!! what a great job staying calm and continuing to try to help and keep everyone safe through this less than ideal situation. Kudos!
Couldn't agree more!
abso bloody lutely!
Atc was amazing!!!! Professional and not personal.
Excellent ATC Controller! How did this Pilot got an IFR clearance? If this is a new IFR pilot, the Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) and this Pilot need a re-evaluation by the FAA! Why is this Pilot in IMC conditions if he can't fly an RNAV approach using a IFR certified GPS?
Yikes! I’d hate to be in that position. I think I would’ve asked for the ILS instead with vectors… and admit I needed the frequency.
That would be the smart move
Painful to listen to. ATC did a great job. Kudos to him.
Not a pilot, only RC planes which I had always visually in sight. Kudos to the ATC who could bring this guy safe to the ground.
Pull his ticket. This guy is clearly using his iPad as a navigator.
Bet he doesn’t have a rating at all.
why isnt an ipad good enough? they are excellent.
@snorttroll4379 You can only use the approved equipment on board the plane. The iPad, even with an ADSB puck, isn't accurate enough. iPads are great, especially with foreflight!
@@snorttroll4379have you seen the video?
It sounded like he was only using the iPad to view the approach plate, which is exactly what most folks do these days. He wasn’t actually using it for navigation.
I’m not sure I understand what the pilot is attempting to do here - the approach plate on his iPad is informational about the RNAV Rwy 8 approach, NOT identification of the IAF (JOSRU), or any of the subsequent fixes on the approach. He needs that approach plate to provide information on what to do at each step in the approach, but he also needs the approach loaded into his IFR-certified equipment to know where he’s located on the approach. It doesn’t sound like he has loaded the approach into his on-board, IFR-certified equipment, and he doesn’t know what to do at each fix on the approach - basically, he’s flying blind above the (broken) cloud deck.
He’s north of the field, and being vectored westerly (your in-video circled spot is incorrect). The approach controller is giving him vectors-to-final (turn left, heading 170, direct JOSRU, descend and maintain 4000). The controller is having him cross JOSRU and not fly the procedure turn (straight-in at JOSRU). All of this should have been loaded into his panel-mounted, GPS-capable IFR equipment prior to where this conversation picks up. Either he didn’t load the approach or doesn’t have GPS IFR-certified equipment in the aircraft. Even if he DID have all this loaded, unless he has one of the newer IFR-certified GPS units, he couldn’t see the approach plate to know what to do at each fix (because his EFB - his iPad - is dead).
He should have declared a PAN, if not a downright emergency. If there were no VFR airports within his fuel window, there are PAR approaches available within the immediate area around Martinsburg, WV that could have vectored him in.
He didn’t have the equipment built in. That’s obvious. He is trying to shoot the approach having the iPad track the approach, not aircraft equipment.
If he had aircraft equipment, he could’ve selected the approach and flown it. If he didn’t have the plate, ATC can legally read the plate to him and with that info, he can legally shoot the approach.
Sorry I circled the wrong waypoint there
Sincere apologies
@@Flight_Follower - no worries 😁
@@Flight_Follower No problem. It happens.
My guess is he has the equipment (I've seen people suggest it was a 530, which seems reasonable.) so he probably has it so the aircraft maintains it's IFR rating, but he probably has no idea how to use it. The 430s and 530s are really unique Avionics systems because of their very old school user interface. So I'm thinking he was either using the Ipad and the GPS in it entirely, or he had the Ipad slaved to the GNS530 and he was using something on the Ipad to operate the 530 and load the approach in from there. From the way he said the GPS tells him he's over the waypoint, I'm assuming he was using the Ipad, then confirming his location on the actual onboard GPS since it will display nearby waypoints without them actually being added to your route.
That controller has the patients of a saint and utter professionalism. Hats off to him.
Amazing controller here. Props to you sir
"7183V readback please." "Uh yeah, just one minute, I'm trying to pull up the approach plate on my etch-a-sketch and it's a bit bumpy up here!" "Is that drawing utensil IFR approved, sir?" "Uhhh.. umm.. Yeah."
Pilot should have declared an emergency
I am a CFII and I found myself in an aircraft, where I was supposed to be a passenger in the back. The pilot didn’t know I was even a pilot. He too exclusively used an iPad. At the last second, I wound up in the right seat. That little last minute change saved our lives. The iPad quit working about 20 minutes into the flight in the Colorado mountains. After watching him struggle and loose sight of his actual flying & navigation as he fiddled with that iPad. I insisted I take control, which was a rather contentious conversation to say the least because he didn’t even know I was a pilot. I’d checked weather and knew of a clear space in between solid layers. I called Pan Pan, asked for an increased altitude to VFR-on-Top and vectors to the nearest airport that could give me an ASR approach. We had to backtrack and landed safely with him at the controls and me intently watching our progress. I handled the radios. In the ground we purchased charts. I was shocked, no dumbfounded, that this IFR rated pilot had never heard of the clearance VFR-on-Top nor had he ever heard of an ASR approach.
FYI, controllers, at least at one time back in the day, had to practice ASR approaches to remain current, and it was almost always practiced in simulation. The controller and tower that performed the ASR both communicated that they were glad to log one in real world conditions.
My failure-not monitoring my pilots IFR preparation, as I “assumed” he had charts, and not just an iPad. I did not mention that I was a pilot for several reasons too long to go into here and I had not been current for two years.
Good job ATC
I cannot for the life of me believe that this pilot ever had an IFR rating. He clearly had no business flying IFR, or an approach as a planned, filed plan. It really would seem that he had been flying 'IFR' in the past with an ipad only, and when the inevitable happened and the ipad shut off, he was completely up schittz creek.
What's the world coming to when you can't rely on consumer electronics in a life or death situation.
Back in the mid-80s I was flying IFR in my Piper Arrow III when I had a total aircraft electrical failure. I was flying with a friend in his C182 and used my hand-held and had him baby-sit me until I could get approach on the hand held. He contacted approach and relayed headings and altitude until I got in range of approach. The radio did have VOR capability and approach had me fly headings and altitudes on 15 minute periods to save the radio batteries. The last ten minutes I was able to pick up the VOR and do the approach, finishing with the tower at LGB. Overcast until about 1200' AGL and the runway was right in front when I broke out. Great end to a flight and lots of lessons learned - most important know my assets and only worry about communicate part after aviate and navigate. Oh yea - have all your charts and maps in the flight bag including alternates on every flight.
This ATF controller was great! I'm sure he was frustrated, but didn't let it show, didn't rattle the pilot. Great job to him!
Electronic Flight Bag (EFB) is really nice. It shows airport data and ADS-B and TIS-B airspace data about other aircraft.
But, I wouldn’t ever use it as my primary navigation source for instrument landing.
If you had an inflight instrument failure I could see using it since it is better than nothing. But going to an airport with precision approach radar is safer, assuming you have sufficient fuel to get there.
This has got to be the most patient controller ever.
I learned to fly IFR in the late 1970s. No computer, no iPad.
Did you remember how to fly with no computer or iPad? That’s a lot to keep up with
@@charliehilbrant 10 sure I did. You had to. Computers and iPads weren't a thing in the 1970s.
@@jimconnoy6133 I just absolutely respect the hell out of that. It’s truly a different experience doing something like that. Like a weird offset backcourse LOC with just steam gauges is just mind blowing to me
but you still had your iphone at least
@@joeg5414 no. They hadn't been invented yet
That conversation really had my wondering about the fitness of the pilot. Had my skin crawling.
I have loaded an approach on my foreflight synthetic vision to see how close it was during my actual approach with the planes instruments many times and it was actually right on the money. In an emergency that it was my only option to get down safely I would be happy to try after seeing my testing of it.
What a great controller!
Hats off
I'm not really sure what was going on here. He seemed to be saying he was using the iPad for the approach plate and it wasn't working, which is an understandable problem (it would be good to have a paper backup, but I'm sure plenty of pilots don't). The solution to not having an approach plate is for ATC to vector you to the start of the RNAV, though, and the controller tried to do exactly that and it didn't work. There was clearly a bigger problem than simply not having the approach plate.
No, you need the approach plate for the whole RNAV approach, not just the start.
@@kewkabe What do you need the plate for once you are established on the approach? It should all be programmed in.
@@kewkabe All approach charts depict the entire approach, but vectors to waypoints or to segments of the approaches are quite common.
@@thomasdalton1508 You need the chart for things like MSA, DA and minimum visibility for your category, and depending on GPS unit it may not have vertical guidance (segment minimum altitudes). He couldn't even go direct to a fix so likely had a super old GPS unit at best.
@@kewkabe I hadn't realised there were avionics certified for RNAV approaches that didn't have all that stuff built in.
The “i think he needs a conversation” lol 😭
When the controller says "over", you know it truly is.
While ForeFlight is great, it is not any substitute for IFR equipment. I think people find it so handy that they rely on it more and more, rather than using it as a check or aid. Not good here.
I'll go out on a limb and say that they should remove a lot of those "features" because eventually they are going to get somebody killed. These seeds are already sown.
That pilot deserves to get a phone number - but I think the controller should have directly put him on some ILS approach, spelled the name of the intersection for him etc. No reason to discuss the iPad issue over the radio.
Yeah agree with you there
Unbelievably poor airmanship. The controller’s attention is being diverted to this idiot when he should be focusing on other traffic. Another case of the far too common poor standards of training and checking in this country.
@@shanelodge391 "Another case of the far too common poor standards of training and checking in this country."
How do you think it could be improved??
Without putting a too fine a point on it, the problem stems from people’s belief that it is their ‘right’ to be able to fly.
It’s a privilege that needs to be earned.
From my experience of living and flying in 5 countries, I believe that this country needs to tighten up on standards at the private pilot level of training. In this particular example, the pilot had no business being where he was. He was a danger to himself and others. It’s not up to the controller to hold his hand.
@@shanelodge391 " I believe that this country needs to tighten up on standards at the private pilot level of training."
I get that, but what do you suggest?
It was a long time back but when we had paper charts they never ran out of power. Back then most non-precision approaches were flown with no vertical guidance. There was DME but not on every approach. Anyway this guy should have had a backup - likely a phone - or paper charts. Controller did a great job.
Man, what a patient controller!
People have gotten so much depended on technology nowdays,that whatever skills they have,get nullified.In our example here,and thank God,the ATC controller is our subject's guardian angel,performing his job magnificently!..
It's a bit of a dilemma. On the one hand, the skills that a pilot will rely on when technology fails stay sharp with use. Relying on technology will dull those skills, and it seems to me that part of "staying proficient" means practicing these skills from time to time. On the other hand, technology can seriously reduce workload and information overload, and arguably makes flying safer. I'm still a student pilot strictly on map & stopwatch, so can't comment from experience, but it's what everyone including our national aviation safety board is saying.
Speaking of relying on tech... EASA is considering a trial with certain aircraft (Airbus) where commercial flights are flown with only 1 pilot, the 1st officer being replaced with technology. I'm not really sure I am comfortable with that.
It’s not that he’s relying on the iPad it’s that he’s trying to use that in place of a certified GNSS navigator like a Garmin GNS 530. If he actually has the correct equipment and he knows how to use it, arming the approach and finding JOSRU is easy.
@@kaasmeester5903 "National aviation safety board?" What's that?
@@Tom-zs6bb Their official title is Dutch Safety Board, which operates in a variety of sectors, including aviation.
@@kaasmeester5903 So this incident occurred in Holland? Man, they sure speak good, unaccented English over there!
I wonder how Kennedy Steve would've handled this.....😂
refreshing to see how professionally this controller handled this situation
yep. hats off to the guy on the ground...
Very very happy with how the controller kept his cool and kept trying to help even though the situation was pretty dumb. Controllers should always prioritize getting people on the ground alive, no matter how stupid they are. very happy to see him keep his cool, and do the right thing.
Perhaps 83 Victor got his Instrument Rating from Microsoft FlightSim? He is just wandering around, lost in the soup, afraid to make make turns, one autopilot failure away from disaster. SMH... 🤦♂
I find flying in Microsoft FlightSim harder than in reality, but that's just me :)
He said he can't identify this "JUNCTION" you're talking about. He should not have anything to do with IFR flight and it sounds like his instructor who signed him off needs severely reprimanded.
I am sorry I misheard that word I wasn’t sure either thats why i put a ? Mark
self taught by microsoft.
100%. You beat me to it. I'm thinking most of this hick's experience is flying Microsoft with at least one beer close at hand.@@captainkttyhwk
@@captainkttyhwk Haha, I have about 30k hours on it since 1981 but I also know how to fly and have an aircraft dispatch license. But not in that line of work now.
@@Mister_Linus If he was on MSFS, he certainly hadn't learned much.
This must be the most patient controller of all.
I know he is (probably) flying first but explaining what the faq is going on is important on this one.
I can see this now on his iPad - "You have a pending update, do you wish to proceed". iPads and such are great navigation tools - for your car.
Assuming it was just the approach plate on the iPad you lost, declare an emergency and ask the controller to include altitudes and to read you the missed approach procedure. The approach and waypoints should be available on the IFR capable onboard GPS itself.
He could have taken the ILS in the weather wasn't that low if he wanted to try VFR
@@khabbad The ILS approach would usually be harder to fly without a chart since (if it's not DME required) it usually requires identifying fixes via VOR. Although if the controller can vector you onto the localizer, you're right... at that point you should be able to capture the glide path and bring it down under the cloud ceiling to land. Still would want to brief that missed approach procedure
@@1dgram Right I’m talking about the controller vectoring him in on a fix to intercept the localizer and glide slope they weather didn’t sound like it was too bad if the pilot was considering vfr, so I figure that would have gotten him there but for some reason the pic didn’t want to attempt it
Wow if I have a problem I want this atc controller very nice joob
Oh man, kudos to that controller for patience, tenacity and professionalism. He could have done no more to help the guy.
Prime example of how technology destroys airmanship. Get rid of the tech and use the instruments. It's gonna happen to drivers before too long.
It's already happening to drivers. People driving into fields or down one-way streets and then saying Google told me to. Even a few hikers have had to be rescued because of following a trail on Google that was incorrect.
Good grief... Just fly the ILS.
If you are instrument rated, or even if you are not, you should be able to maintain your heading and altitude and follow specific vectors from ATC even in IMC. Illegal equipment and/or licensure notwithstanding, you should be able to maintain airspeed, altitude, attitude, and heading as a bare minimum. Presumably, every private pilot should be able to do this.
The pilot be like I’m learning how to land from RUclips and my IPad tutorials stopped.
Controller should know that the ipad is the approach plate instead of using a paper plate!
Right, but it’s the pilots responsibility to have adequate backups in place such as paper charts or even a phone, not to mention an external battery.
Print back-up charts or have a different electronic back-ups. Always have plan A, B, C. Expect the worse case and you'll be better prepared if it happens.
I'm pretty sure the controller wasn't referring to the i-pad approach plate. He was referring to the i-pad being coupled to the aircraft's instrumentation system to fly an instrument approach.
@@flyjarrettwhile absolutely not smart from what I understand part 91 technically doesn’t require plates or backup of them. iPads with plates are fine. Printed plates for destination and departure airports is smart in my opinion but not required. BUT to be clear iPads aren’t approved for ifr navigation- flying an approach for example. The controller is right- you can’t fly ifr by reference to an iPad app.
This pilot was using ForeFlight on the iPad to track his flight and shoot the approach with. This was not him using it just for a plate. He didn’t have the equipment built into the airplane to do the RNAV.
Wow, I imagine this is what the radio between the ATC and the girl RUclipsr "pilot" that killed her father and herself in the crash a few weeks ago might have sounded like, if she had used that at all. Absolutely clueless...
I was about to say the same thing. Jenny Blalock was her name and from what I saw of her videos (before they were taken down) she really didn't have the basics of flight under control and she was too reliant on her new autopilot, which she barely knew anything about.
What would be worse is hearing a pilot say "I can't fly IFR, I forgot to feed my Tamagotchi "
You cannot substitute an iPad for IFR certified instrumentation. However, you can substitute an electronic flight bag for a paper plate. The pilot would need to be able to count distance on his timer, if he does not have GPS on his plane. He also obviously cannot fly an RNAV, but he could fly VOR. He is however able to use an iPad as assistance for instance if the screen on his GPS unit is too small, but he needs to be able to fall back to his built-in instrument in case his iPad is not available. Speculation as we do not know, it is possible that he had RNAV capable equipment, but he did not load it in, perhaps bc it was to cumbersome, and ForeFlight makes it real easy on the iPad.
and a controller that says "over" ?
He was treating the pilot like he was flying his first solo 😂
He NEEDED to treat the guy that way. That pilot was a flying disaster just waiting to happen. Without the controller, he could very well be dead right now.
It's used when you are having communication difficulties for additional clarity.
It's official: We have entered the digitally-induced dark ages. It seems more and more "pilots" are reliant on iPads and autopilots to do the most basic aviation skills for them.
as a non pilot I could use old avionics vectoring, air speed and AoA only by watching videos. This flight was actually analog IFR to VFR aproach and in my opinion any pilot even VFR should learn exact this. This should be the minimum requiriment to fly safely. Modern tech in the second place. Imagine modern IFR instruments fail...what then. I guess many would have issue with safely landing.
The regs are you can use electronic plates if and only if you have a paper backup. Please print the charts you MAY most likely need for intended, alternate and a few nearby destinations. That may seem overkill to some, but I’d rather recycle unused paper (don’t forget you can double side print to cut down on waste), than be found unprepared.
This was the nicest controller I have ever heard. I didn’t even know they existed.
I bet this guy buys a new GTN 750xi and gets more training after this experience !!
Yeah but should he fly with this limited IFR equipment knowledge? What a disaster
I doubt it. He probably bought a new iPad.
Ok,
So you need current approach charts for the approach you want to shoot, it can be a hard copy or EFB(ipad etc). If you have an iPad though you need to have a back you for it legally. That back up can be another EFB(ipad, iPhone etc) or hard copy current charts.
2nd you need the required IFR equipment on the airplane and the pilot needs to be current
I fly into KMRB all the time. Really hard to piss those guys off especially when they deal with a huge mix of C17 traffic and students. Really nice people, I can see why they got a bit frustrated.
KMRB is my home airport. It's mixed use military and civilian. The controllers there are awesome.
planning is important. Should always have a printed out plate of any approaches you expect to get.
theoretically, you can legally use an iPad to have a digital approach plate, but even if you lost this plate you should still be able to complete the approach with the aircraft on its own (which is not necessarily legal) but most IFR-certified aircraft have a digital display on which you can pull up an approach plate as well.
This video should now be in a module for both pilots and ATCs alike.
This pilot is something else and the controller is right out on a limb here, you never fly without IFR charts and approach plates onboard , a laptop is not suitable for primary IFR guidance, for what ever reason, and i suspect the onboard GPS was not compatible for R NAV approach and or had issues, the pilot should have asked to shoot an ILS approach with radar vectors until established, it is possible to fly RNAV final approaches using VOR DME and DME arcs as an IAP or even TACAN if equipped, NDBs also but it appears way beyond this pilots capability. I would be interested in understanding what IFR hardware this IFR certified aircraft actually had and if the pilot was current with his Instrument Rating.
This is a sad situation …some people don’t know their limitations!
Wow, that was scary to listen to. The ATC guy did a great job. The pilot needs to get some training and better equipment or he will die in IFR conditions.
The pilot declared that he had the necessary navigation equipment aboard the aircraft, however, two things are apparent. 1) He did not have access to the necessary documentation (Charts) due to an inoperable iPad and if he had backup (hardcopy or otherwise) he did not say. 2) From his apparent lack of ATC operational and communication awareness, my guess is, he is either not rated or not current for IFR operations. To sum up, no, this was likely not legal based on #2, but we would not know that unless a ramp check had been made following the flight. If the pilot was using the iPad as a primary navigational device that would be illegal as well, albeit difficult to prove with out a FSDO eyewitness in the plane at the time. Unfortunately, even though compelling, the audio may not suffice as evidence.
The requirements for IFR include the navigation equipment in verified working order. As for charts, in this case, the aircraft is under 12500 lbs. As such, Part 91.503 does not apply.
There are no portable GPS devices accepted by the FAA for primary navigation. They are only to serve as "aids for improved situational awareness". The trouble is that they can also become a distraction if not used correctly or worse fails. I was flying near Denver once when my EFB device simply stopped updating. Everything looked fine since it all goes by very slow in a PA28-180. Fortunately, the primary navigational aid, GNS430, alerted encroachment on the class Bravo and I was able to avoid. My pad showed me no where near the Bravo. Lesson learned!
The controller deserves a medal or better, a raise.
Could have also asked approach for the minimum altitudes and MDA for the RVAV fixes if he didnt have the chart available