The One True Karen of Westeros Catelyn Stark | Jon II A Game of Thrones | Obsidian Nights | ASOIAF
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2020
- Game of Thrones Season 8 came to a screeching hault but on the Obsidian Nights Podcast we dive back into the books to experience A Song of Ice and Fire By George RR Martin Thru a new lens! Episode 11: Jon II of A Game of Thrones, We are in Winterfell, In the mind of Jon Snow! Jon is preparing to leave for the wall and he has to come face to face with his abuser Catelyn Stark, Say Goodbye to his brothers Bran and Robb and his sister Arya Stark, but not before giving her Needle! Thanks for Watching :)
Tony's Channel:
/ houseteflon
Obsidian Nights Podcast:
podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
Art Credits:
Winterfell - www.deviantart.com/tsundere-p...
Catelyn Stark by Natascha Röösli
Jon finds Ghost, by Magali Villeneuve
Jon and Robb: www.deviantart.com/aprilis420...
*Free Trial For Audible* Your First Audio Book is Free!!!
www.audibletrial.com/GrayArea
* Get your Sweet summer Family Shirts and Merch here!*
teespring.com/stores/grayarea
***Support Me on Patreon***
/ grayarea
Follow Me on Instagram: / thisgrayarea
Follow Me on Twitter: / thisgrayarea
Sources Used! ASOIAF Novels, GRRM's works HBO Series Game of Thrones, A **Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and A World of Ice and Fire, The Princess and The Queen (Dangerous Women) , The Rouge Prince (Rouges), The World of Ice and Fire App, Sons of the Dragon (Book of Swords)
**A Song of Ice and Fire amzn.to/2kySWt4
**Dangerous Women amzn.to/2waMd38
**Rouges amzn.to/2FDUJH7
**The Book of Swords amzn.to/2KvPq02
**A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms amzn.to/2ja60IZ
**A World of Ice and Fire amzn.to/2kz6uJ8
**Fire and Blood amzn.to/2ri1hpG
**Game of Thrones Season 7 amzn.to/2jpy20N
** Links with (**) are sponsored/affiliate links which means, if you use those links to purchase a product I am compensated. However, I will never recommend you anything that I would NOT buy myself or that I do not currently own. Your Support is much appreciated! 
Развлечения
![Minecraft but Players Can Upgrade [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QRRgLJs4ZPk/mqdefault.jpg)
The worst part is the entire family knows Catelyn is being awful to Jon and no one stands up for him! No one checks Catelyn.
I agree. Ned Stark could have easily BOTH protected Jon's secret AND put his foot down about Catelyn's treatment of Jon. I believe that Ned had proven himself over the years to be a good enough husband and leader to not have to cowtow to a jealous woman's whims. Even if he wanted to keep the secret and still go with the narrative of him begetting Jon with another woman, that "mystery woman" is nowhere in sight, assumed dead for what everyone knows. That "mystery woman" is no threat to Catelyn as a wife or Ned's standing as Warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell. Jon being treated decently holds no bearing on the standing of Ned's "rightfully born" children as successors according to Westerosi law. He should've put his foot down (instead of subtle or soft nudges to treat Jon better) a long time ago with that b@#$% wife of his.
Yes, they do. Especially Robb and Arya. 💯 I do see your point, however.
This isn't your modern family. Catelyn is the Lady of Winterfell. Eddard argues with her even in the first chapters of hers
But other than Eddard, nobody can really do anything about it. Catelyn scorns Jon for being a possible threat to her own children.
In such feudal style, strict families, even children can't defend their half-brother against their mother. What'll they do? Stop talking to her? It's not how people in such cultures think
are you telling me a culture that views women as her husband's property can't check her vile behavior? In a world where, if she crossed the wrong person, she would get burned alive at the stake, she wouldn't get at least primanded verbally? What kind of feminist lense are you looking through? @@subutaynoyan5372
The fact that Ned didn’t even trust Catelyn, his own wife, with the true identity of Jon, says everything there is about Catelyn’s true character.
I agree partially on this. I feel that initially he didn't want to tell her because how do you tell someone "Hey, you know my bastard? Actually he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna...you know, the people whose affair resulted in your fiance-the guy you * wanted * to get married to, getting killed as well sparked a civil war that killed thousands? " and expect them to not freak out/harm the child/ blow your cover "out of loyalty and honor to the crown and our friend, Robert"
Actually that says more about his honour than his view of her. There are many good people he knew that he didn't tell.
I don't think it was about Catelyn at all. It was about protecting Jon, one of the few Taragaryen children left in the world.
He didn't trust anyone with it
To be fair, I don't think he can trust Jon's true parentage with anyone. The more people that know a secret, the less chance it has of actually remaining a secret. And if Jon is truly the son of a Targaryen, then a massive can of worms would be blown wide open that would shake Westeros up. Even if Robert didn't go on an unholy path of vengeance, there would be plenty of Targaryen loyalists and insurrectionist who would love to prop Jon up as the true heir to the Iron Throne whether he wanted it or not. Too much is at risk for Jon, House Stark, the North, and the kingdom as a whole to make telling anyone that secret worth it.
You know you're a Karen when your firstborn daughter would rather hang around Cersei Lannister than be around you.
Yeah, but that's only because Cersei is the Omega Karen. Catelyn is a boxed wine soccer mom who demands to speak to the manager, but has no actual power. Cersei is the wife of a successful politician who has enough power to actually back up her threats (or at least scare people into thinking she does). Sansa knows she will never have true power over the cashiers of the world if she stays in Winterfell.
LOL damn it Sansa
Don’t be a hater man: boxed wine is legit!!!
@@musiquefrique Yeah, but not when you drink the whole box in one sitting while ordering enough costume jewelry off QVC to stock several Walmarts.
Sansa hangs around Cersei Lannister because she strives to be just like her, a woman whose only concern is being queen. Sansa is already Cat 2.0, so she has nothing to learn from such a wannabe.
The fact that Jon sees no other future for himself but the wall and to give up the rest of his life tells you all you need to know about how Catelyn treated him. No amount of love from Arya or Robb or the rest of his family even makes him think twice about sacrificing his future.
I think it's more seeing his uncle in the north the wall is an honor and he just wants to get away from Cat
Is anyone else gonna bring up how badly Jon was Gaslit? He believes himself a bastard, and he has been manipulated into believing it is somehow HIS fault. He takes the Black because he honestly believes he did something wrong. (It's not just Cat who is guilty of this, literally everyone at Winterfell was aware and did nothing) By the standards of Westeros he was treated just fine, some people say, or it could have been worse. Horse feathers. The one thing he wanted above all else was repeatedly denied him, and while Cat bears some burden for that, most of it is NED's fault. Ned knows better and doesn't help Jon at all. Ned Stark was a shit human being and a bad father. I said what I said.
I don't know, I think Karen's aspire to level up into Catelyns.
LMAOO
🤣🤣🤣
No they don’t. All they aspire to is to get in someone’s bizness.
Its SOOOO TRUE!! I just about fell out my chair, laughing!!!
Not true!!! Team Dany! Lol 😂
Catelyn is NOT trustworthy with Neds secret - she seizes Tyrion to avenge ‘her’ son, in total disregard for the trouble it will cause Ned in Kings Landing. She lets Jamie go for the sake of ‘her’ daughters, with no thought for the trouble it will cause Robb. She is entitled, and in that entitlement expects the commiseration of the world. She would have betrayed Jon in a heartbeat for the preservation of ‘her’ children (these mini extensions of herself); particularly in furthering Sansa’s future as queen. Telling her might have improved the relationship, but seeing this entitlement in her, I think Ned knew Jon would not be safe with her as a secret keeper.
Well said.
Perfect evaluation. Gives extra meaning/light to Robb's dealing with her after she betrayed him. If she could do that to her own flesh and blood, then...Ned knew what was what.
Absolutely, if she knew the truth she would have found a way to justify her betraying Jon. She sent Sansa to King's Landing because she wanted to be mother to the queen and grandmother to King's. All a reflection of her greatness.
EXACTLY
It’s the entitlement that people don’t address when it comes to any of the defenses we hear for Catelyn OR for Sansa, frankly.
Naivety I understand, propriety I understand, duty I understand, but no one gets honest about the entitlement AND elitism that we see in Sansa and Catelyn
Catelyn was definitely a Karen but I think Lysa Tully was a whole other level of Karening
Lysa Tully was the worse. I feel bad for her. For what her father did to her just evil
She completely ignore her sister and her brother troubles and running after little finger like an idiot 😡 wanted to kill Sansa. CRAZY!!!
Cat insisting that Jon couldn't stay in winterfell despite it being his home is like when a Karen demands the manager fire an employee who got her order wrong
No no not really at all. Jon is a bastard and is an insult to Catelyn since it is her husband's bastard. Nevermind the fact her husband's bastard is living I her house and she is being told she has to treat a bastard as her own. I think since most western people today are bastards they cannot and never will be able to understand truly the kind of shame a bastard can bring to a family specifically the spouse of the bastards father.
@@torinjones3221 if you want to see my comment as more than just a joke to go along with the title of the video then let's nitpick what you just said. Jon is the bastardof Ned yes. Ned STARK,winterfell has been the home of the starks for 1000s of years not the tullys this isn't riverrun if it was riverrun then your logic would make sense. Jon has more right due to having stark blood simple as,cat simply married into the family
@@torinjones3221 also it was never enforced that she had to treat jon as her own cause she never did,you clearly never paid attention if you believe she did lmfao
@@kingofkings3624 are you a show watcher or Book reader? Because no noble women treat bastards well. And yeah Winterfel may not be a Tully Holding but she is still his wife his presence is a massive insult to her. Like let's be real Ned Married her to get the Tully army, but he should still do right by her.
And no just because he had Stark blood doesn't mean that he has more of a right to be there. Did you forget the setting? Everyone's wealth and standing is based upon their fuedal holdings. The future of the Starks flows through her kids with all that pretty Tully hair. And since they were true born they are the only ones that matter.
@@wisdommanari6701 In A Storm of Swords when the discuss making the Hornswood bastard the heir there was no hand wringing. Maya Stone seems loved. Cat is judgey & nasty
Ned couldn’t tell Cat. Cat’s love was killed by the mad King because he went there about his sisters kidnapping. If Cat knew Jon was a Targaryen she would hate him more and most likely spill the beans!
That's why I think Stoneheart will probably hate Jon even more after learning of R+L=J in TWOW!
Even Westeros isn't safe from Karens and their karening
The one true Karen of Westeros! OMFG 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
People, lay off of Tony! At the end, Tony cleared up that he doesn’t agree with Cat’s actions but simply understands her POV given the context of her life in Westeros.
This ^^
Ned didn't claim that Jon was Ashara's son. If I remember he refused to talk about it and told her never to bring the issue of Jon's mother up. Other people spread the rumour regarding Ashara.
The thing is that Ned didn't entirely shut it down either. He didn't want people to talk about it and spread it but he never actually confirmed one way or the other, which just made more people think these rumors were right. I do think Ned always planned it that way though, just in case Jon developed Targaryen features since the Dayne's also have a tendency towards purple eyes and blonde hair.
@@rianbeegles3349 He did put a stop to the rumors. _"And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again"_
No, he didn't claim that. But he didn't deny it either. If you ask your spouse if they slept with someone, and they don't deny it, they just say "don't you ever speak that name again" what are you going to think they did?
It is kind of implied, Caitlynn thinks its ashara child because of the rumors.
So what question do you believe Catelyn asked Ned for him to angrily react with, “Never ask me about Jon” and “now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady”?
And I think if Cat knew that Jon was who he was that she would have treated him worse.
EXACTLY! Cuz if JON TRULY a TARGARYEN then HOW can SANSA marry the "FutureKing" Joffrey Baratheon?! Especially after Ned learns JOFF REALLY an INCESTUOUS BASTARD lol Catelyn ambitious trust she would have HATED bowing down to HIM above ALL PPL
"THE ONE TRUE KAREN" Thats why we love you!!!
The way she treated Jon was disgusting and tony there is no excuse. She can have all the feelings she wants but she's an adult so she knows better than to take it out on a kid....but let's just talk about how obsessed she was with bran and how in a few short chapters she's gonna drop bran like hot potato!!
Exactly!
She was not Ned's choice . She was a leftover from his brother. So he might have chosen differently allowed too.
@@teresaswingle3899 totally with you on this. Careful reading reveals that Ned is somewhat pissed about the entire situation. "It was all meant for Brandon."
Ned could very well blame both of his siblings for how rashly they acted. We know how he feels about duty, and we know how much time he spent brooding. His PoV's think about nothing important, so it is technically possible that he was bitter. He also has a right to be bitter within the feudal framework he lives in. His siblings got to choose and do as they wanted, but he had to remain to deal with the fallout.
Rickon too, she dropped Rickon! Who arguably needed her even more, barely even four yo. She abandoned Rickon while she was still at Winterfell! Robb tells her he needs help around Rickon when he comes to talk to her.
I’m sorry, I might be missing something as I am not a parent yet, but I do have a sibling and when we were kids and one of us was sick and bed-ridden, the other didn’t get neglected and nor did the household duties.
To make it even worse, Robb urges her so many times to go back to Winterfell but she refuses
Ned had more power. I FULLY appreciate the exactly that you included this. They are both the adults in the situation and they both enabled Jon to be mistreated
4. Her relationship with Ned and Rob. In the books, Cat did love Ned but had sentimental feelings of what could have been if she married Brandon. It's something that happens to a lot of married people. However, it seemed to be fueled by misguided jealousy of Ned's supposed lover, Jon's mother. Also by her naive notion that Brandon loved her and was a faithful man. We know nothing could be further from the truth. Brandon and Ashara becametwo ghosts between them that they never a dressed, as Ned refused to. It left Cat angry and discontent and Ned unsure of his wife's love.
She also seemed dismissive of Ned's political opinions while being overconfident of her own. I think she believed she had better insight on politics by virtue of growing up in the South. A naive perception that led her to make presumptuous judgments and desicions with disastrous consequences.
However, Cat does have some cunning, just not the machivelian level of Tywin, Orlena, Varys and Petyr. Though when she did give Rob good advice, he mostly ignored it.
5. Her relationship with Bran and Rickon. Cat did state that Bran was her favorite child. Why that is, when he was just as stubborn as Arya buffles me. Then there's Rickon. Yet again, Cat's habit of openly favoring one child over another. There's no record of a tender or any moment between them. When Brandon fell, she obsessively sat by his side and completely ignored Rickon. Of course, it's understandable that Bran was at death's door. Any mother would find themselves out of their element when faced with such a situation. But poor Rickon felt so neglected that he was crying and clinging to Rob. When Rob told her this, she went on and on about Bran being her special boy. I'm willing to give her a pass because of her grief.
In conclusion, you could pick Catelyn apart for all soughts of reasons, big and small. George wrote her as a deeply flawed character. She's Cersei's foil. Like Cersei she overestimated her political intellect.Unlike Cersei it cost her, her life. Cersei murdered Robert but Ned is executed.Like Cersei she married a man she believed loved another. Cat learned to love Ned but Cersei never loved Robert. Both had a childhood crush who's obsession with them led to poor judgement namely, Jaime and Petyr. But unlike Petyr, Jaime never betrayed Cersei. Both their sons, slight one woman in favor of another, one for armies and the other for comfort . Both their sons were crowned and murdered at a wedding feast by an ambitious rival house. Their husbands had bastard sons who are basically copy cats of them. But, Jon is a false bastard while Gendry is true. Cersei murdered Robert's bastards while Cat though mean to Jon, didn't kill him. Their eldest daughters were copies of them but Myrcella, unlike Sansa, was nothing like her mother. And on and on and on.
Unfortunately, George resurrected Catelyn but made her a killing zombie. There's little hope for a redemption arc. At this point, she's just an empty monster with no benevolent purpose, worse than Cersei. I hope she serves a bigger purpose than exacting revenge on a few irrelevant characters. Perhaps she can now protect her children more effectively as she hasn't the conciousness to stop herself. Given the horror that Winds of Winter will be, the Starks will need loyal monsters of their own to survive .
"Every king has need of a beast. "- Tywin Lannister
I really disliked her caracter, but I felt d&d never showed her true nature, just like Sansa
Well Catelyn was there while GRRM was heavily invested in the show. He even wrote some scripts of her in the show.
I just _love_ how D&D left out that Sansa literally forgot about Arya when talking to Cersei, and that when her "best friend" disappeared one day, she was just happy she didn't have to listen to her crying anymore. Y'know, crying because she saw the Lannisters massacring people in the streets?
Yaas, kween, slay! Empathy is for the weak!
@@Silburific sansa thought arya was on her way back to winterfell
They made all of the main character more likable and that is one of the main betrayals of the story. Hence the crash ending!
@@Silburific Sansa's frustration with Jeyne came only from the fact that they were locked together in a tower for three days. Previously it was this - "Sansa dried her own tears as she struggled to comfort her friend. They went to sleep in the same bed, cradled in each other's arms like sisters." Yes, its a condescending thought - but she never takes it out on Jeyne. Also this - "She missed Septa Mordane, and even more Jeyne Poole, her truest friend. The septa had lost her head with the rest, for the crime of serving House Stark. Sansa did not know what had happened to Jeyne, who had disappeared from her rooms afterward, never to be mentioned again. She tried not to think of them too often, yet sometimes the memories came unbidden, and then it was hard to hold back the tears."
Furthermore, Sansa at the Small Council was being told that her father was a traitor. Sorry if I don't hold it against her for forgetting to ask about Arya. Just as I don't fault Arya for not thinking of Sansa during her flee from the Red Keep etc.
Also, it was an internal thought Sansa had - so I'm not sure how they could have adapted it on screen anyway.
On Grey's side here. I cannot advocate being cruel to a child because of the parent. Her worry about Jon taking over inheritance would actually be assuaged if she had been kinder to him because he would develop loyalty to her as well as the rest of the family. Regarding the Stark looks, Arya has the Stark look and is the least favourite of Catelyn's kids, to the point that Arya wondered if she wasn't a bastard as well. I understand the backgrounds and the society (don't get me started on Hoster Tully's "parenting") but her attitude towards Jon is poisonous.
He treated Jon that way because she was afraid he was going to become Daemon Blackfyre 2.0, although that never happened!
@MOTHer..... Exactly! There is NO excuse! Aside from having a poisonous attitude it was extremely disgusting as well.
@@PedroLucas-mg5je cousins and brothers, historically, have usurped FAR more often than bastards. Cat should blame herself for having so many sons. A bastard has limited access to the power base necessary for such an undertaking. The Blackfyres are not a good comparison since Daemon had been legitimized and was widely recognized as being a capable administrator and excellent general. No other bastard in history was ever given such a thing, and it was entirely possible that Daeron was a bastard himself (the speculation about Aemon/Naerys)
People bring up Sansa's agency a lot. Jon had far less than that.
Cat was so blinded by thoughts of what might be that she found it impossible to see what was. Jon was completely loyal to Robb to the point of self-sacrifice. Jon didn't say a word to Robb about Cat's final statement, though Robb was clearly expecting it. When you own children expect you to be a cunt, that's kind of the truest judgement of your character.
'It should have been you' were the words of Lady Stoneheart or Mother Merciless before she became Lady Stoneheart. Is it a reach to link her coldness towards Jon, an innocent child associated with a perceived wrong done to her (Ned's apparent betrayal of her) with her malevolence in hanging anyone associated with the Frey's who wronged her? Was this a slight foreshadowing of what she would become?
The biggest foreshadow of all that should've been put is that Jon should've nicknamed her "Catelyn Stoneheart" when he was younger!
I also have a similar experience to Jon regarding Catelyn. I really try not to flat-out hate Catelyn (but let’s be honest: I’m damned if I do, damned if I don’t so...🤷🏽♀️). I lived with my uncle and his wife and her mother for a year. It started with little micro aggressions, but it slowly became clear to me that his wife and mother-in-law hated me. In private, my uncle once told me that his wife told him that she was jealous of me. I was 12. And I just couldn’t understand why...
It sucks, it’s really speaks to how realistic GRRM writes these characters.. it also sucks that women like this are really the real boggeymen of many childhoods
Why would she be jealous of a child!?
Same thing happened with me. I lived with my uncle and his wife hated me and would always be so mean to me when he wasn't around. They have their own children too and she's very verbally abusive to them. (my cousins) The worst part is that there's nothing I can do either and my uncle is a police officer and he never wants to see wrong with him and his wife so I can't even call cps or anything because hes a cop so they can pretty much get away with anything :(
People aren't mean to kids because of a conscious knowing; they do it because it's deep seated psychological stuff. My mom was an asshole to me because I had everything she didn't. I had two parents, a house to live in, food to eat, and an education. She didn't have any of those things and she was a real fucking asshole to me about it. My paternal grandma explained it to me when I was old enough to understand...and I'm not mad at her....she was just acting out her subconscious traumas and jealousy. Humans are fragile. We're all a mess. Even Catelyn.
@@unrepentantjaegerist7236 Unconscious bias and trauma.
It's been a few years since the show went off the air, and I am so very happy to see someone besides me doesn't care for Catelyn Stark. I love the actress, despised the character. She was a foolhardy, mean spirited lackwit who got her entire family imprisoned or killed. I got so tired of hearing how noble and brave she was. I never could see it. To me, she and Baelish were the entire cause of everything that happened.
If Catelyn had even looked, she’d have seen how close Jon was to all of her kids except for Sansa. And why? Because Sansa treated Jon just like Catelyn did!! 😾😾😾
He may actually have been close to Sansa as well. When he meets Gilly, he tells her she has a pretty name, because Sansa told him it’s nice to tell girls they have a pretty name. He insists to Stannis that Winterfell is Sansa’s. In Sansa’s thoughts, she thinks of Jon “that it would be so sweet to see his face again.”
In the show, Sansa apologizes for being awful to him, but he never thinks that in the books.
Catelyn could look niw as Stoneheart. Robb is dead, for all Jon knows his brothers are dead, Sansa is married to Tyrion, Arya is most likely dead … And he still didn’t take Winterfell when Stannis offered it.
@@austingeorge2814 maybe they were more distant than with other Stark kids, but they still talked to each other cause they were family after all and kids don't care as much as adults about heritage and bastardy.
Arya looked like ned so not all her kids don't have neds look....
--In fact Catelyn SAYS that only Arya and Jon look like Ned, the rest look more like Tulley’s.
Grief and stress are a big insight into someone’s true nature. My family was in a similar situations as the Starks wherein I had a brother that was hospitalized for 3 months and we didn’t know if he’d live or die; the feels you go through in a situation like that are indescribable. It’s a lot. BUT we never used it as an excuse to treat people like Catelyn treated Jon. She has a core of spitefulness to be able to say what she did and her grief exposed that.
Also, Lady Stoneheart is who she is at her core without the conscious social expectation to be civil.
I have always seen a parallel between Catelyn and Cersei:
- Both were groomed since infancy by their fathers to expand the family's status
- Both had absent mothers
- Both thought they were going to marry the prince but ended up unexpectedly marrying the King/Lord
- Both are filled with extreme malice. Their positions as Queen and Lady do not bring them personal fulfilment and still feel "out of place".
- Both have no friends - Catelyn hasn't made friends with any woman in the North, nor has Cersei in Kingslanding.
- Both think they are smarter than their husbands --- but they really are not.
- Both are obsessed with protecting their first born son's unlawful rights to inheritance.
- Both witness their first born sons die at a wedding.
- Both had children that were not their husbands.
- Both end up gruesome and twisted a product of their environment.
All of these make sense, but I have one question. The word “unlawful” in regards to Robb. I haven’t read the books (I will, I promise LOL), but I thought Robb was really the son of Ned and Cat? He was supposed to rule Winterfell if Ned died, right? Or are you talking about her pushing for him to rule instead of Stannis and Renly? I don’t like anything I’ve heard of Cat, so please believe I’m not defending her 😬
NikkiRen There are a lot of reasons to believe that Rob’s real father is Brandon Stark. Which was the real reason why Tully was desperate to get Catelyn married.
@@Billythetoaster2004 even if he was Brandon's son, wouldn't he still be the heir seeing that Brandon was the heir?
TJ Islander He would be a bastard like Jon Stark. Hence Catelyn’s hatred of Jon.
TJ Islander - I would think that since Brandon Stark died before he actually became the Lord of Winterfell, and Robb was still in the womb, then the lordship would still pass to Ned and then to Ned’s sons.
I am not defending child abuse in away shape or form. I believe that it is unfortunate but children as Jon are often abused because their abusers (who are often parents) aren't bonded to them. They view these children (as Catelyn saw Jon) as burdens and they bear resentment toward them. He's not a person to her he is an impediment blocking a perfect family and true intimacy with Ned. Let us not forget that Jon looks more like Ned than Catelyn's children.
The snow melting in Robb's hair may have been an allegory for Robb's quick tenure as King before being assassinated. GRRM has described snow amassing in people's hair as crown's before. :D
Interesting... I wondered if it was about him being a summer King, not a king of winter. Can't wait to see what George does
Jon Snow is the true Lord of Winterfell. Robb is fake that why he have snow in hair. Jon Snow is true heir because he born to the first son. And in true marriage between Ashara and Brandon Stark
That title done killed me girl😂😂😂
She realized how cruel she had been in her last days. Damn shame
That's why she's so much mellower as Lady Stoneheart.
I'd like to talk to your manager Gray Area.
Jon Haymaker 😆😂😂
Catelyn never had a motherly bond with Jon. Not only did Jon not have a mother he missed out on having that nurturing experience.
Arya & Jon are so sweet. GRRM did a good job building their relationship with the little time they had in text before they were seperated.
Maybe I'm just a cold hearted b***h (which I fully acknowledge is likely😂) but I can't even give Catelyn's behavior a pass based on her mental state. She wouldn't have had to part w/her husband and daughters if SHE hadn't manipulated Ned into accepting the position of Hand. But for that, none of the tragedies that befell her family (and Westeros at large) would've happened. And let's be honest, she didn't act for fear of retribution from Robert if Ned refused. Per her own admission, she's motivated by securing her children's birth rights.
"Catelyn's heart went out to him, but she knew she could not take him in her arms just then. First the victory must be one, for her children's sake."
"Catelyn said nothing...Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him...And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn's own grandchildren for Winterfell."
The way to do that was to force Ned out of Winterfell, somewhere Jon couldn't follow, so Jon's only option was the Wall, where Jon would have to renounce all claims to inheritance and be forbidden to father children.
And let's talk about that decision. She's manipulating Ned to go to King's Landing by appealing to him about Robert's safety:
"You say you love Robert like a brother. Would you leave your brother surrounded by Lannisters?"
Ok, if the Lannisters are that dangerous, why is Cat so eager to thrust her husband and daughters into a situation where they would be surrounded by Lannisters? And once they are surrounded by Lannisters in King's Landing, Cat seizes a Lannister, puts him on trial, then releases him to wander through the Mountains of the Moon. Did she care what danger that put her family in? No, or else she wouldn't have done any of that. Cat is so full of shit I can't stand it. And the most egregious part of all that is she does this instead of following specific instructions Ned gives her to prepare the North for war should it come to that. Instead, she opts to seize Tyrion which started the war her husband didn't want and the north wasn't prepared for, again because of her. Not to mention she did all of that instead of returning home to be with 3yr old Rickon whom she'd neglected since Bran's fall, or to be w/Bran who finally woke from his coma to find himself partially paralyzed; the son she was supposedly soooooo worried for that she couldn't leave his side for a single moment; not even to see off her daughters and husband whom she won't see for who knows how long. And let's not forget Robb, who was raising Rickon on top of all his other responsibilities because Cat neglected him. He could've used the support, not to mention that was one of the things Ned told her to do so even though Robb was extremely competent, his competence shouldn't have mattered. I could go on and on and on. Cat's actions are inexcusable and she'll always be trash to me for this. Abusing Jon was just a cherry to top the sundae.
Well said.
@@neriumsuitedher Thanks. I take solace in the knowledge that Robb made Jon his heir despite Catelyn's objections. So she had to live with the knowledge that she caused all of this s**t for nothing. And they say that the Stoneheart remembers, so I'm hoping that memory stayed with her.
I think you summed it up perfectly. She is awful & escalated the situation every time, either by pushing Ned to go to Kings Landing, kidnapping Tyrion or undermining Robb's rule by freeing Jaime. And because she's such a narcissist it never occurs to her that maybe Little Finger has hard feelings or that Walter Frey would get revenge. Honestly I think Cat is about as smart as her brother. The Tully's are a bunch of grasping, toxic whackadoos
@@balerionthecat5076 You know, I never put much stock in the theory that Robb was Brandon's son. But every time I re-read the series and realize the lengths Cat went to in order to secure his inheritance and the amount of resulting carnage that didn't bother her, I start to think maybe Robb really was Brandon's and that's why she was so motivated to "secure the victory". It could also explain why Hoster Tully was insistent that Ned marry Catelyn in Brandon's stead. His honorable daughter couldn't birth a bastard.
All this! Yesss! So well said. This is exactly how i feel and see that egotistical tully
I cannot with Tony 🤦🏻♂️ Thank you for sticking to your guns. She is an adult, you do not take the frustrations life hands you out on a child for his entire young life, I don’t care how unfair your own life has been.
Never was crazy about Catlyn but Lady Stone Heart is a different story.....
Honeyyyyy Big SAME
No zombie that was lame AF.
I honestly hate stoneheart more than Cat and that’s saying a lot. She turned a group that originally meant well into cold blooded murderers.
The fact that one of the most interesting characters in the story, Beric Dondarrion, died for her just pisses me off beyond belief.
I hate when people say look at the situation from cat's perspective she doesn't have a perspective. She's a stereotypical wicked stepmother and when your that kind of cliche you don't get a side of the story because you're in the wrong for treating a motherless child like that. I understand why Ned never told her the truth because she would snitch to all the other Tully's because she's incapable of keeping secrets.
The fact that you think she should be Jon's Stepmom is ridiculous.
She did not marry Ned knowing he had a son.
There are many other women in Winterfell. Should they have been Jon's mother?
@@hozman5700 She married Ned for political reasons, not for love... She has no right to be angry at him... She was just scared about her legacy, which isn't noble at any point....
@agnat86 Catelyn explained it herself that she does view Jon as a real threat to her sons. It was even mentioned in this video. Catelyn knows her history, especially about Aegon the Unworthy, Daemon Blackfyre and Daeron II and all the numerous Blackfyre Rebellions. There is precedence for her worries, especially when Jon looks like a Stark while all her trueborn children, minus Arya, look like Tully's.
@@meldraghart not a noble point...... THAT'S THE POINT OF POLITICAL MARRIAGES. You ensure that your bloodline continues and that there are no threats to it. Because if Jon gets married his children will be noble and have a claim on Winterfel
Don’t hate it, it’s ok to play the👿 advocate. As a mother, I’m not sure how I’d react, probably leave my husband even though I love him. Not all react that way, George writes his characters as people and they’re flawed.
My mom was in Jon’s place. She was raised by an older couple who always believed her birth father was her adopted father. She faced so much mental and physical abuse at the hands of her adoptive mother. My adoptive grandmother lost both of her children and here she was raising what they believed was her husband’s love child.
In my mother’s later years she understood there was a lot of mental and emotional trauma from losing both of her children. She also understood the manipulation of her birth mother and the position she put her children in.
It was all incredibly sad, and I’m glad her childhood didn’t break her. She raised seven beautiful children and we all knew what love was from my mom.
I totally agree with you, Gray Area! Jon Snow was innocent, and all of the reasons she hated Jon were out of his control. Also, he was good to her own children! How could you be a good person, and a good mother, and treat another child like that? (Not to mention a child who your own children see as their sibling and love).
Catelyn sucks, there is no doubt to me, and for so many reasons... BUT in the time period ASOIAF is set (medieval or similar) this sanctity of childhood did not exist. We saw the Hound slaughter a boy who was running and begging for his life, who was innocent and did nothing. Cersei killed tens of children who could be a Baratheon bastard. People treated Arya like shit and Sansa was screwed as a Lannister prisoner. Theon didn’t care that Bran and Rickon were children, he invaded their home and killed their men in front of them and then he killed two other boys to pretend it was them. He just grabbed two little boys and killed them! Jamie threw Bran out a window! Cersei ordered Sansa’s Wolf murdered in her face! So yeah, Catelyn couldn’t bring herself to care for Jon Snow. Bastards were common, yeah, but not running around your castle right in your face so everyone could look at him and see the evidence of her husbands betrayal. It was shameful for her. It was a taint in their marriage and her honor. Now I think Ned didn’t tell her because it would put her and their children in danger. If his secret was discovered and Robert suspected she knew he would kill her along with Ned for treason. Also, if she knew and it would save the life of her children somehow, she would surrender Jon’s secret, if she had to choose. If she let that hurt her marriage then she would forever be unhappy, so she chose to hate only Jon. In this I agree with Don, it was a character flaw and she knew it and probably resented herself for not being above it. Was she right? Hell no! But it’s understandable. It hurt her image as the Lady of Winterfell and made her a laughing stock most definitely.
I don't judge her for her treatment of Jon nearly as much as I judge her later actions. She knew what LF was. She was living with Lysa when Hoster forced Lysa to kill her baby, and the two of them once shared everything. The Tully family (with the exception of Brynden) are pompous, entitled, greedy, snobbish, and not all that bright. They are also blind to their complete lack of power (their vassals hate them, and don't respect them at all, yet nothing is really done to address this) It's something both Tully daughters take with them to their respective homes. A question: why wasn't Edmure married already? A fall from a horse could have ended House Tully.
Isn’t Robb being Brandon’s mathematically impossible due to the text? We know that Brandon was sent away from Riverrun after beating up Baelish, and on the way there heard about Lyanna and goes to kings landing where he dies. That was some time in 282, possibly the middle or end.
Robb was born late 283. Theories say that Roberts rebellion last about 9-10 months and the text seem to support that. If Catelyn got pregnant by Brandon, Robb would have been born during the beginning to middle of the rebellion, which just isn’t supported by the text.
it cannot be true, because Catelyn remembers that Ned took her maidenhood..
You are correct!
I appreciate Tone trying to put a positive spin on things, but the show making Catelyn more likable is just what they do! They made all of the primary characters more likable and this failed the story in the end. It was one of the largest betrayals of the story and why we had the dumpster fire crash ending!
Dammit Tony stop using show canon to defend Karen's actions!😂 Great job guys, Karen Tully suuuuucks.
I think the sybolism of Robb with snowflakes in his hair is the Stark kids longing for home/the way things were before, it was the last time they were all together before Jon & Benjen went North/Ned & the girls went south (Arya & Sansa both have a similar memory when they think of home/family in Feast plus it's one of the last thing Jon thinks about as he's getting stabbed up at the end of Dance).
Good point on the snowflakes!
Snowflakes for Rob. Ashes for Dany.
This made my day!! Slaving over a grill at work all day in the heat, face mask on, is awful. But Gray and The Don make the day fly by! I’d LOVE to see Tony and Gray as the main 2 on this podcast PLUS a guest!
In your honor, Catelyn will now be known by me as “Karen Stark”😂
Catelyn's story is about power, not about "Family, Duty, Honour". According to the text, ever since she was very young, she prevented her brother to grow up a Lord of Riverrun (all of these "wait for me little Cat" stories), enjoyed manipulating people (Littlefinger when he was a boy), rushed to the capital, abandoning young children who needed her the most, enjoyed a power trip prior to capturing Tyrion, treated Theon in a way he was traumatized by her more then by Ned, who could have taken his head, refused to leave Robb alone, undermining and manipulating him every step, and more to the point, was incompetent enough to mess up everything she got involved in... Speaking of "Family" and "Duty" - her duty for her family was to arrange for a Frey marriage, which she so recklessly promised, but she always chose to stay close to seats of power, The only errand she agreed to run was to negotiate with Renly (so, "staying with dying father" was only good when there was no other seat of power to tempt her)...
Idk...But if we are talking Karen karacteristics, I would have to say that Cate's crazy azzed sister Liza is way over the top.
---Except that her craziness would be the very reason not to take ANYTHING from her seriously. Even TYRION knew Liza better than her own sister did!
No no no no, dont do that thing where you invalidate someone's trauma by pointing out someone else has it worse. Jon was loved by half the family, but not demonstratively by Ned and not at all by Cat. The 2 authority's of the family who set the standard for how others view/treat Jon yes he had some comfort from his relationship with Arya, Bran and Rob. But none of them have the power to change his situation or stand up for him openly to any affect.
In my opinion what brings Jon and Arya so close is their connection to Lyanna. She’s Jon’s mother, and Arya is always said to look and behave exactly like her
So true! Arya and Jon love is beautiful 🥰🥰🥰.
Ned probably didn't know how vicious Catelyn was to Jon. Robb knows enough to know that dealing with Catelyn would make Jon upset, but he's relieved when Jon says she was "very kind," which means he believes it to at least some extent. Catelyn wouldn't show all of her ugliness in front of the rest of the family, and definitely not in front of Ned; she wants to keep their image of her as a nice person. She saves her undiluted hatefulness for when she's alone with Jon and plays at the heroic martyr in front of Ned. He also doesn't have the mindset of asserting himself as lord of the castle. Through our modern eyes, we don't think twice about how much he lets Catelyn decide and do, but nothing in his society obligates him to do so. He was raised to follow his brother's lead rather than to lead himself, and it shows in how passive he can be.
As far as Catelyn knows or can know, there's every possibility Jon was conceived before Ned married her. Pregnancy is supposed to be 40 weeks, but anywhere from 38-42 is considered on time. The fact that Ned brought him home from war just means he was born during that time; there's as much room for believing Jon was conceived before the marriage as for believing that Robb is Brandon's - or that she managed to conceive on her wedding night. She focuses on Ned leaving her as a newlywed and going straight to another woman, but that's not the only potential scenario, just the one that most justifies her seething resentment of an innocent child.
Plenty of lords kept their bastards around. The only reason Robert didn't is because Cersei could and would go running to Tywin if Robert pushed things too far. Tywin would put up with his son-in-law whoring, but not with him showing preference for a child that wasn't half Lannister. Ned wanting to raise Jon with his true-born children is somewhat unusual, but not unheard of - and in their society, his word should be law, which is why Jon was there in the first place. The fact that Ned didn't see any issue with Jon staying at Winterfell until Catelyn flat-out said he couldn't stay shows that he hadn't realized just how deep her antipathy for Jon is, and isn't it convenient that Maester Luwin is ready with a plan that gets Jon out of the way?
As for why Ned didn't tell Catelyn about Jon's real parentage - accepting R+L=J as such - she was a stranger to him when he first came home with Jon. He didn't know her enough to trust her. And even though these events are far in the future of that, we know that Catelyn can be impulsive and not think about consequences (see: grabbing Tyrion and taking him to the Eyrie) and that she can be a blabbermouth (see: telling Littlefinger and Varys everything in the whole dagger mess). If Ned got to know her enough to trust her, he'd also know those traits of hers, which would make the risk of telling her far outweigh the potential benefit, especially since he didn't know just how much she hated Jon and how badly she treated him.
If you want to compare the situation with a modern woman's reaction, the equivalent wouldn't be a guy having a baby mama, it'd be a guy saying he has sole custody because the baby's mama isn't in the picture. Yeah, there's still some questions to be asked, but it's still not fair to take it out on the kid. And let's not forget, Catelyn could have left. The war was over, she'd produced an heir, there's plenty of noble women historically who went home in similar situations and just visited with their husbands every once in a while. She could have been as cold to Ned as she was to Jon - refusing to even say his name! - thus putting at least some of the blame/consequences where it belonged. She had options and she chose the one where her husband had no idea just how much she loathed his son, and where she spent years emotionally abusing a child who had never done anything to her OR her children. If anything, her treatment of Jon would've *caused* a resentment and a desire to take Winterfell, but Jon's love for his siblings and the person he is means that he never would. The threat to Catelyn and her children was always in her own mind, just like the power to treat Jon decently was always in her hands. She made her choices as an adult, dealing with a child. No excuse is possible.
Ned knew if he told Catelyn about Jon being a Targaryen and rightful heir to the throne she would have hated Jon even more because he would have been in power over Rob. She would have done something to to leak the information.
Whew....so this the tea we spillin' today!
Joffrey was very Karen-esque at House Darry when he got Lady killed.
You never wish to be crippled or dead no matter the situation. I don't care what your going through, you don't say that to a kid. Catelyn doesn't deserve the stark name. Makes me curious how Brandon Stark her first love would think of here
Brandon was Robert with slightly fewer whores. He was not a good person. People need to take House Stark off the pedestal they've been placed on.
I really don’t see how anyone can argue in her favor. There’s no justification for how she treated Jon, the beef is with Ned. I do agree that he should’ve put her in her place and shut it down. Understanding isn’t a justification for her behavior.
Exactly. This dude just annoyed me.
Being cold to a living reminder of your husband's infidelity is sooo baaaaddd. But having 15-16 year Olds fight and kill in war is Okay? Lmao
Wisdom Manari' I don’t get what one has to do with the other. And yes it is bad, when you constantly cause mental abuse to a child. Like I said, if she had an issue with his “infidelity” then she should’ve taken it up with him.
I totally agree. I hadn’t read the books yet I was waiting for Martin to finish the last one.
As much as I hate Catlynn treatment of Jon. I think the abuse he suffered under cat contributed a great deal Jon’s humility and integrity because he had been abused and knows what it feels like to feel discounted and undervalued.
@@epcarter6 patriarchal society remember. Ned is literally the boss of the house.
I agree with you, Gray Area. I never liked Caitlyn either.
I love Catelyn and her POV chapters are some of my fav but that said, while I understand why she treated Jon the way she did, that doesn’t make it justified. I mean it’s justified in HER mind and in the society she lives in but I feel like us, as readers, are suppose to feel uncomfortable to actively repulsed by her behavior towards him. And while she didn’t physically abuse him, emotional and mental abuse is still abuse and leaves just as many scars. And it’s an ongoing thing too considering 14 year old Jon says he would normally run and cry. (Also maybe something of note is Jon running away crying in his first chapter and of wanting to do the same thing in this one. It’s small but it’s brought up in his first two chapters so it has me thinking that little Jon dealt with bad things by running away and crying which is just heartbreaking.)
Also of note is how Robb is very much aware of Cat’s feelings towards Jon and while her disdain comes between Jon and Sansa’s relationship as siblings, those same feelings seem to create a wedge between Cat and Robb instead. Robb was two seconds away from comforting Jon if Cat said anything cruel to him but Jon lied either because he didn’t want his goodbye with Robb to be about her or because he didn’t want to be more of a wedge between Robb and Cat.
(One last thing is That when Cat says Jon’s name he remarks that it’s the first time he ever heard her call him by it. Who lives with a child for 14 years and never calls them by their name??? Wtf Catelyn?!)
How do you understand how shetreated John the way she did?
As in understanding her mindset as a character. Understanding =\= Sypathizing in this case. Like you could understand why someone does something but not agree with what they do. I hope this explanation made sense??
I agree with almost every thing but 🐈 didn't abuse Jon Snow she just ignore him.
Ned never claimed that Ashara Dayne was Jons mother.
Facts!
Right. That was rumor and whispers.
Yes, but he never denied it either
Uilliam Unknown that is a valid point and I suppose We won’t know until we actually have the books completed whenever or if ever that will be.
@@uilliamunknown4844 Admit or denied something, doesn't make it true or false. It just let's people believe what they want to believe.
2 of my favorite ASOIAF youtubers 💕 love teflon tv and Gray Area for years they've always had great and interesting content 💗thank you guys💗
Plot twist: Catelyn's real name indeed is Karen. She moonlights as Catelyn to dodge all the hate.
---Didn’t work😉
Their marriage was a business arrangement
You’re correct - holster Tully wouldn’t have joined the rebellion unless Ned wed Cat and Jon Arryn wed Lysa. A business arrangement indeed.
Welcome to game of thrones
But turn into a loving one after a while.
If so, it's one the Tullys came out much better in. They had the support of less than half their banners. Wedding two Lords Paramount is a VERY steep price to pay for the value received. Jon Arryn wedding Lysa should have been enough. What I see here is a rebellion that was preplanned. Not the timing, but the idea of a rebellion was most definitely there given all of the intra-kingdom marriages/betrothals. Had the Blackfish wed Bethany Redwyne and Jaime wed Lysa, I wonder how that would have gone down.
If you follow this thread, there is really no other conclusion, which means the planning started before Duskendale.
I've not even watched the video yet..that title has Me howling with laughter!! Medieval Karen's of Ice&Fire 🤣🤣👌🏻
I want to say that your video has brought me much joy on a dark & painful day! Thank you for all your hard work on this!
I also super enjoy the comments and conversations that happen as a result !
A nick name for Renly.
Renly the Friendly.(thank me if you had a laugh)😁
Three things:
1. I love you Grey!
2. There is NEVER an excuse to treat a child badly. I am helping my fiancé raise his daughter who is only 2 months older than our son. I treat her like she is my own. She is part of her father whom I love with all my heart and soul. I make no distinction between my son and his sister.
3. You have to consider the time period here. Men had bastards all the time. That didn't mean they were treated cruelly. She was beyond mean she was cruel. In history and in the books bastard was not synonymous evil. Maybe they were not on the same level as true born but not under the house either.
Always love when you and tony discuss asoiaf❤❤❤
Ned loved Kat deeply But didn't trust her .I think Ned knew she had an ambitious streak because he understands the GOT. They are all taught to strengthen their Houses. He just never wanted to play that game.He was not interested the politics of it all. Yes @GrayArea Kat and Cersei are very much alike.
I always thought why didn't Ned tell Cat about Jon true nature and how the story would be different. The story wouldn't have change in fact I believe Catelyn would've treated Jon even worst. She would have blame Jon for the death of Brandon and felt that her family was in endanger for having a Targaryen heir. I believe Ned might have thought about telling her in the past but her behavior towards Jon must have stir him to keep his silence about Jon's true parentage. I wouldn't be surprise if she'll used Jon as a pawn to get her daughters back from the Lannister. If Catelyn was smart she should have raised Jon as her own to spite the ghost of his mother and Ned--if she was smart
At first I felt dude was justifying child abuse, but I get where he was coming from with the Ned aspect. He should've shut that shit down. Immediately. When he was a toddler. And spoken with her about this being an innocent child and it not being his fault. Good video
I bust out laughing when this notification popped up on my phone! I’m playing catch-up so I will listen to this video later today.
I think Cat was scared to death of Jon because Rob was really Brandon Stark’s son. She believed Jon was Ned’s son, but she knew Rob wasn’t. She wasn’t forced to marry Ned. She was happy to have a father for her baby. He was a threat to Rob. Plus, he looked like a Stark while Rob didn’t.
I strongly agree with everything you just stated. I always felt the Robb Stark was the child of Brandon Stark and Catelyn Tully Stark. Catelyn was truly in love with Brandon Stark and Ned was truly in love with Ashara Dayne. The one and only time they Catelyn brought up the situation of Jon's mother, Ned angrily put a stop to it because she was talking about two women he loved, his sister, Lyanna Stark and his true love, Ashara Dayne. Catelyn was going to try to make Ned take care of his brother's child and after the war Ned came home with a baby for her to take care of. That's Karma. I do believe that the Dayne family had a part to play in Jon's situation and knew about his real parents. I think Ned knew what Catelyn was trying to do. I think Ned knew his brother, Brandon had sex with Catelyn because Brandon probably bragged to Ned about it. This is another reason why Ned never told anybody the real truth of Jon. Too many secrets and there is the matter of Ashara Dayne having a stillborn daughter. I don't think that daughter was stillborn. I think that daughter is still alive, Daenerys Targaryen. That's why Ned and Robert used to always get into fights and arguments over the Targaryen children. Ned was not going to kill his daughter. Jon and Dany background was always similar. Their stories paralleled each other. Dany was able to get the dragons through blood magic not because she was a Targaryen.
I definitely appreciated the candid conversation and your shared personal stories. Thank you👏👏👏
Thank you I'm so addicted to your channel now I press the like button before even listening, My Lady
I have to watch this later, but I had to comment on this title though! Gurl! This title has me in tears! I hope you drag her.
GENIUS lol. I just listened to this chapter an hour ago and the title had me beepin n boopin!
Loved this episode! Cant wait for more!
I understand Tony in that he himself is trying to be UNDERSTANDING. Not accepting, just understanding.
And Ned's secret about Jon should NOT be shared with anyone! It jeopardizes Jon's life and so much more. There is too much risk. It is the most ideal way... Less risk to not allow this information to be known by anyone.
Ned didn't want to go south Catelyn forced it. Why would she then be sad? Lol
She didn't think she'd be losing her children
I´m with Gray on this one all the way through! Never liked book-Cat. Actress is brilliant. With that said, all the perspecives on her actions and references to modern life and how ppl treat eachoter ring true. Still don´t like her hehe! Cat was an ambitious woman, there was no way Ned could tell her the bastard she already branded a threat was a Targaryan. Not if he wanted the boy to live. Cat was presented as a smart lady, but the Cersei in her won over, otherwise she would´ve tied Jon close to her. Love the banter!
I absolutely LOVE when you two get together for a video! I love you both separately, and I'm so happy!
I love your videos, they're helping me get over the trauma from season eight and the letdown the last of us part 2 was. Keep making them youre the best theorist so far.
2 of my favorite content creators!!!
Something that your guest said and later on both of you discussed always made a strange noise in my mind. Ned never defended Jon from Catelyn's abuse, Jon never said goodbye to Ned, Jon calls Lord Stark to Ned when they find the direwolves. I think the show, and specially the goodbye scene made a great part of the fandom believe that the relationship between Jon and Ned was great. That is not what the books say. There is never a tender thought connected to Jon when we are in Ned's POV, even when he is in the black cells, the feeling we are presented to is regret but always connected to failing to Lyanna. I think that despite the fact Ned was not as mean to Jon as Kate, Jon was a reminder of Lyanna's choice and the massacre that followed, and that their relationship was nowhere as warm as we see in the show. That is why there is not a goodbye scene. The lack of something as pivotal as the last words between a father and son should call our attention. It does not simply because the show made things foggy.
100% this. Ned takes out his anger and frustration on Jon. He made a promise, sure, but I think we can all agree that Lyanna would have been pissed.
Ned is not perfect. He has a certain code of honor, and I think people confuse that with being a good man since there are so few in Westeros. Ned wanted/needed Jon to take the Black, but lacked the balls to say so. Not telling Jon the truth when it was possible they'd never see one another again (how much time did Ned expect to spend in Winterfell in the future?) was an act of cruelty. You don't do that to your own child, but you might to your nephew if your sister wasn't around to punish.
Guys! Great discourse! Thank you so much!
Catelyn, like Cersie was used to being sought after and held in a high regard. Jon was a reminder that those honors are gone forever. Ned still treats her as a prized wife but she could not deal with the constant reminder. Catelyn and her sister Lysa and hdr daughter Sansa are shallow minded. Ned saw this in Catelyn which is why he NEVER told her the truth of Jon's parents.
Just to be pedantic on the swords. A bastard sword is a much bigger sword. It's a hand and a half sword. Halfway between a one handed, side sword and a two handed longsword. Can be used in either way. Needle is a smallsword, which is a very small, thrust only sword.
“Not everybody’s perfect” ahhh you gotta live the classic abuse excuses used as talking points for empathizing with Catelyn 😂 That just suits her so well
This was a great episode! The back and forth was heart-felt from both Grey and Tony. Im on Greys side all the way but the conversation was very engaging! Thank you Grey!!!
I am On Tony side. On this
You both are killing it. My two favorites
Just moved to a new rental place. Found out I live next to a Karen... she seems like the type of person to tell her stepson “it should’ve been you”
😅
I like how the whole defense is "she shouldn't do those things but she's suffering/mad for X". That sentence should end on the first part "she shouldn't do those things". Also Ned's enableism doesn't justify Cat's actions towards Jon. Each person is responsible of their own actions.
Yes...she is definitely the worst version of Karen that can be found in the wild, walking around and spreading misery.
Worse than Cercie?
@@wisdommanari6701 Cersie is not a Karen, Cersie is just completely insane and her insanity grew in each book. Karens are usually sane and can be kind but they don't want to.
Im with everyone else. Crying at that title LMFAOOO
You're very good at this. Narration, editing, etc. I am grateful for all of your efforts. Thank You, and have a great week ahead. 👍💯✌
I loved your discussion, thank you.
One thing I would’ve added to the discussion is that this family is not of the common folk, they’re royalty. So, secession of royal blood, name and land would also be something that would be foremost on Catelyn Stark’s mind. Comparing that mindset of the medieval era, to today’s understanding of family and the love and value of children to have a childhood to be pampered, was only really recognised during the Victorian era onwards. In context, that Catelyn “suffered” him to live, because her husband and King of the North decreed it, was something that John Snow was lucky to have. Of course it’s not ideal, and of course, we wouldn’t do it today. But it was a different time, with different stakes. We can’t really judge our ancestors on their actions in their own eras with modern context. We live so very differently today, and with hopefully better lives all ‘round.
I really think this video is looking at the Catelyn situation from a modern perspective. She is cruel to Jon and I agree that it is abusive. That said, Catelyn is not a parental figure for Jon. She is not a stepmother in the sense that modern women are stepmothers to the children of their husband. She is not responsible for his care or for filling any role for him. From where she is standing, this isn't about her husband cheating. She lives in 298 AC Westeros. She expects her husband to cheat. If Ned had a woman in the Wintertown that he saw regularly, that is something she would expect. She does not expect his bastard to be raised alongside her own children, given the same education, and similar rank. Sure Jon doesn't like having to sit away from his family during the feast, but he usually does sit with them, showing that Ned mostly gives him the same standing as his legitimate children. That's the problem.
Catelyn sees Jon not just as her husband's bastard. She sees him as a threat to her children. When she sees Jon, she sees Ramsay Snow, she sees Daemon Blackfyre and his descendants. She sees bastards as evil and knows they can ruin the lives of her children and grandchildren. The greatest achievement most women in this culture are taught to expect is through their sons. Jon existing threatens that. What threatens her legacy through her sons even more is the honor and privilege Ned showers on Jon. By giving him a highborn education, by letting the entire North see Jon brought up right beside Catelyn's own children while he looks more like Ned than her sons, that is a setup for problems down the line. Even if Jon himself could be trusted, what about his children? A highborn bastard who is acknowledged and given privileges by their father can marry pretty well. Had he married a daughter of one of Ned's bannermen and was granted lands (which 100% could have happened), there could have been issues down the line.
This isn't about Catelyn loving her husband or not wanting her husband to cheat. She has been groomed to expect and accept that. She has not been groomed to accept what she sees as threats to her children and grandchildren. I don't see why Catelyn being ambitious is a bad thing. She wants the absolute best for her children.
Omg Freaking Thank You
She didn't abuse him, she ignore. Also not every woman is a saint.
Woah! You two havent teamed up in a while (unless I missed it), love it
To me, nothing felt more satisfying than Catlyn admitting, that all the tragedy that has befallen her family is because she could not love a motherless child and the gods were punishing her.
Finialy, someone who understands how I feel about Catelyn. I had a terrible step father and his mother was the absolute worst as well. As much as George creates rounded and realistically flawed characters, Catelyn hits home the most for me. You do not take it out on the child, ever. It's not easy or justifyable to see her side. She doesn't have to know what's going on to not abuse a child.
Loved this episode, very emotionally charged, and Gray I'm 100% with you