Lady Deserved Better!!! // Eddard III // A Game of Thrones // Obsidian Nights Podcast
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- Опубликовано: 11 авг 2020
- In this episode of the Obsidian Nights Podcast where we do deep dives into the books you love, A Song of Ice and Fire! We are covering Eddard 3. In the Riverlands tensions run high as Arya Stark is brought before the King and The Queen's Justice is delivered to Sansa Stark's Direwolf Lady! Download on Spotify, Apple, Google Play or Where ever you listen to your podcasts! Thanks for Watching!
Guest Host: / ieatzebra
Intro Music: Michael Botzaropoulos / michaelbotzmusic
Art Credits:
Weirwood - www.deviantart.com/theonlyone
The Pact - Magali Villeneuve for The World of Ice and Fire
Daenerys & Drogon - www.deviantart.com/kittrose/a
Jon Snow & Ghost - www.domestika.org/en/projects
Obsidian Nights Art - By My Sister / kuwable
Ned Stark - www.deviantart.com/duh22/art/...
Sansa With a Deer
Arya X Nymeria - www.deviantart.com/razsketch/...
Sansa & Joff www.deviantart.com/shredinger...
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Sources Used! ASOIAF Novels, GRRM's works HBO Series Game of Thrones, A **Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and A World of Ice and Fire, The Princess and The Queen (Dangerous Women) , The Rouge Prince (Rouges), The World of Ice and Fire App, Sons of the Dragon (Book of Swords)
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Catelyn's chapter when she received the message from Lysa and her manipulation to trick Ned into going south is the catalyst. He didn't want to go south. He fought the whole time until that night with Maester Luwin and Catelyn in their bedchambers. At this point he feels honorbound to Catalyn to go south.
@@sfjlfkjsdlfkjds yeah, the chapter does go pretty much like that, but Ned never changes with Robert. The first thing that happens after leaving Winterfell is the letter about Danaerys' wedding and the argument between them, then the incident with Arya, Sansa and Joffrey. In each case, Ned opposes Robert, and this continues until Robert's death. He never once listens to Catelyn's argument about how the King would treat him. Half of Catelyn's argument was Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey and her being the next queen.
Sansa did become queen(well again I'm going into tv world)
All I had to hear was “Don’t watch the Lion King while smoking weed” and I already love you lmao
She’s the bestttt!!!
Thank you!!!
Just finished watching it! You guys killed it, thank you for the juice! ❤️
@@GrayArea I sooooo want to be on your show!!!!
Haha SAME! I went and found her because of that
"This is a red plane with a banner attached to it" Yep. It doesn't make sense that Ned didn't either a) turn back at that point since Joffrey literally almost murdered Arya or b) sent his daughters back to Winterfell since Joffrey literally almost murdered Arya. Even aside from Joffrey trying to stab her, his daughter was lost for days. Anything could have happened to her because of that situation. It makes no sense for him to allow her to be around him and the Lannisters going forward.
One. Hun'ned.
Another moment in which Ned is shown as the not best father of the year. I mean, just to sum up Ned's poor parenting decisions in this first part of the book.
1-) Why the hell did he let his son decide his future after a night of bad mood and drunkenness? I'm talking about Jon and his decision to go to the wall. I understand that he don't want to take it to Kingslanding. It's the best decision he made given who Jon is. I can understand the decision not to leave it at Winterfell. But allow him to go to the wall forever, knowing how important Jon is to Robb, having first experience what it is to lose a brother to the wall... He is Lord Paramont of the North, he has friends in the mountain clans, in the Manderlyn and in the neck. He could easily tell Jon ... Ehhh the wall needs warriors, not babysitting, you will train two years at Lord Manderlyn's court and then you will decide your future.
2-) Why did he allow Arya and Sansa to take direwolves to Kingslanding? First, those animals are cold temperature, Kingslanding would be torture for them, second, they are direwolves ... For all the good they behave, you are taking wild animals to a city with a million people, with hundreds of hunters to watch. those animals as beasts. What did he expect? That they were going to come and put Nymeria and Lady in the kennels? They are direwolves ... Their size can be that of a small horse or pony ... It's stupid to allow that.
3-) I understand why not turn around. I honestly understand. His duty to his kingdom and king ... But he's in Darry, he's two jumps from Riverrun. I don't know ... It wouldn't be better to say, hey, look, "Arya, Sansa ... You will stay this year at Riverrun, meet your uncle and grandfather and when I see that Kingslanding is good, I will look for you" In this last point, cancel the second, since in that scenario the direwolves could remain in Riverrun
@@JMTgpro Regarding 1: It's really subtle, but when you read the chapters again really closely and look between the lines, it's pretty clear that Eddard is cleverly manipulated by Catelyn and Benjen to let Jon go to the Wall, without him ever having the slightest clue that he's being manipulated.
@@tarvoc746 I know, but my point stands. Being manipulated is not mind control. If they convinces him that Jon must leave Winterfell, he still has in mind that the north is a wide place full of friends who could give him a home, being able to relate to those he considers brothers.
Also Benjen is quite clear that he wants Jon to wait a few years because he considers him too young to make that decision. He may want Jon to make the decision, but he's still considering it too early.
The situation was a; Catelyn complaining, Jon complaining and Ned walking away and saying "To hell with you two, do whatever you want" you know, father of the year.
@@JMTgpro It's quite subtle, but there are quite a few clues that what Cat and Ben explicitly say in these chapters isn't what they actually think and want. E.g. Ben telling Jon that he's too young is a kind of reverse psychology.
Ned losing his head is no big deal as he wasn't using it anyway.
Lols
OMG! You could not have said it better!
Too soon
I don't get his decision to let the girls bring their direwolves in the first place. Seriously...direwolves in the Red Keep? Things might have turned out quite differently if the wolves had stayed in Winterfell.
Not to mention they were much bigger and fiercer in books. Taking them to court would be more akin to say..bring a bear or something .
Facts!
But then in courts in medieval times there were bears etc as well.
Perhaps that was in George his mind...
But yes, that was a stupid choice, bringing the dire wolves😅
You know, in a way, Sansa and Ned are very much alike. Both of them are clinging to an idealized version of the world, with themselves being the ideal example of that world. Both of them suffer for this. Arya, in contrast, is willing to be fluid. She will do what's right if she can, but if not, she recognizes this and will do what's expedient. She's operating on her unique code, much as the Hound does.
Because he wanted to pretend he could use the North ethics rules in the South. A symbol of his hubris
Lady's death to me, was more tragic than Ned's in the first book. RIP Lady.
we should name this book series a song of bad decisions
Ned and Sansa have that in common, seeing what they want to see. Ned's made excuses for Robert's bad behavior the same way Sansa did for Joffrey. The fact that she didn't speak up even when Lady's life was threatened is very alarming.
Or she was telling the truth and didn't remember.
Ned essentially did that when his own sister confronted him about robert's bastard daughter, mya. He lied and said it was all in the past. He knew good and well he was lying, but he did it anyway. Sansa is more like Ned than Arya even is. Sansa is a female, red haired Ned Stark. It's Arya, who is more like her aunt than her father.
Even when ned was alive, arya wanted to go to the wall to see jon
The Hound killed his first man at 12 (and not with a wooden sword), so he would not consider an 11 year old "a little kid" I think that Ned is a real villain of this particular chapter, mostly because he changed noting about his relationships. I actually do not recall him talking one-on-one with Robert after this episode outside the tent with a "breastplate stretcher", after attack on Ned with Cersei leaving and Robert's death bed. He decided to play a detective in King's Landing, being led by all kinds of people, rather than doing his duty and getting some sense into Robert, despite Robert specifically telling Ned that that was why he asked him to be a hand. His "hand guard" also were singularly incompetent and arrogant, even somewhat racist (believing that one Northerner is worth 10 Southern swords, for example)
I never understood Ned and Sansa at this point in the story. Joffrey straight up tried to murder Arya. Yet Ned still insisted to keep going and Sansa was still obsessed with her betrothed prince. I definitely think Robert would be offended and maybe even threaten Ned if he just packed up his family and went home but I doubt it would have led to all the Stark death that we eventually see in the story.
Because Joffery was the crown prince.
Calling him and the queen liars could cause issues between the crown and the Starks.
Also Ned calling of the wedding could be seen as a slight to the crown/Lannisters/Baretheon and may have caused problems between the houses.
@@whitediamond133 I get that, but it's still such early days with the betrothal, and to be frank, if Ned spoke to Robert about his concerns with Sansa marrying Joffrey because of the latter's character, Robert - I feel - would have understood completely. F*ck, they could have just offered up Arya to marry Tommen later on, and, as that wouldn't please Arya, which Ned would know, Robb - who was not yet betrothed to anyone - could have been betrothed to Myrcella. Settled.
Sansa has the unstable genes of Catlyn. She was crazy ambitious as well.
This is the point were I began to hate Sansa.
What gets me is that later in the book we see that Robert knows how terrible Joffrey is. He outright tells Ned. So if the betrothal and the acceptance of Hand of the King position were refused now, Robert would have blamed Joff and Cersei. Down the road, if Renly and the Tyrells hadn't unseated the Lannisters, Robert could have reached out for a betrothal between Robb and Myrcella.
I don't think Lady would have survived much longer if she wasn't killed in this incident. Joffrey would have had her killed to torture Sansa, and to prevent her from protecting Sansa from him. The poor pup didn't stand a chance.
And I think Ned is rather decent and honorable than stupid. He thought he had to help his friend. And he had to find out if Robert was lied to about his children - and maybe also to keep Joffrey away from the throne. He chose to act rather than run away. But as a decent person he underestimated all these nasty people in KL.
Sansa is a spoiled teenager. But she paid for being so nasty to Arya. She lost her direwolf, and she was mistreated by Joffrey. So I think she got her punishment, just like Theon did.
Sansa did nothing wrong and what happened to her was unfair.
Even if you don't agree with Sansa refusing to say anything you can't really deny that Ned put her in an unfair position. The fact is, telling the truth does incriminate Arya because Westeros is a classist society. Joffrey is a prince (although a false one) & attacking someone of the royal blood is a serious crime. The major reason why Arya doesn't share Mycah's tragic fate is precisely because she is the daughter of a lord - & even then Cersei wanted this 9 year old child KILLED for defending herself against her precious son. As I've said before, Cersei would not care if Joffrey was to blame. And on the other hand, Sansa telling the truth also humilates Joffrey. It's understandable that we as an audience might not care about a 13 year old bully being humilated but for Sansa that is her future husband - as far as she knows, she is going to bound to him. People really underestimate the power dynamic that existed between Sansa & Joffrey in favour of calling her "stupid" but the fact Sansa lives in a society where husbands can treat their wives as they please. I don't blame her for not wanting to alienate herself from the person who is going to have complete power over her one day. However, the sad fact is even though Sansa refuses to say anything that may humilate Joff Joff still can't forget what she witnessed & he therefore takes it out on her in Clash.
Furthermore, I've often seen people make the arguement that Sansa lied to keep the betrothal. I don't think that arguement works for several reasons. For one thing, betrothals are quite serious. You don't just break them willy-nilly & without consequence. Heck, Sansa remained betrothed to Joff even as the daughter of a traitor until the Tyrells came along (to Sansa's relief) & they had to get the High Septon involved. Plus, there's the fact that Sansa did the truth to Ned - if anyone has power over her betrothal, it's Ned & not Sansa. If Sansa lied at the Trident to keep her betrothal, then why does she tell the truth to her father who can potentially end it? That's not even going into the fact (although Sansa is unaware of it) that Ned betrothed Sansa as a cover to investigate the Lannisters - he still needs to do that. His complete lack of communication with Sansa & from her perspective, it is no wonder that she ends up ignoring her instincts about Joff, blaming Arya etc. Tldr; Ned failed Sansa in more ways than one.
THANK YOU. It's so hard hearing everyone be so hard on a young girl that made mistakes. No she didn't learn from them right away. But why is a girl her age (isn't she like 12 here?) held to such a high standard? I made many mistakes and though many foolish things when I was young. Some of them I didn't learn from until my 20s. Why isn't there an uproar against Ned that he didn't protect his family and go home then??? Why is there such hate and judgement for a 12 year old...
@@kaiw522 She's held to such a high standard _because_ GRRM puts her right next to a girl that's fiercely honest even at her own detriment: Arya.
@@kaiw522 Though I agree that Ned should have done more. Its not that strange people blame Sansa. Like really, I am not claiming to be an "Arya" and I think I would have maybey, probably lied like Sansa. But that I would do simply because I was scared and not because I was scared my wild little sisters is spoilimg everyting for me while my dream is still to marry the prince and become a queen, eventhough he is a horrible person. Now Sansa, she is obviously scared as well, but also, acting stupid. Yess, I said it. She keeps on being blinded by the horrors that Joffrey portrays and I just no.... Like she might have been young but the truth is not so many people would be still so keen on marrying Joffrey and continously blaming your younger sister after the things he'd done. And the fact that Sansa did, just shows how people are different from each other. And that's okay I guess. It just shows how good George is at writing different characters. Sansa is not a bad person, put she was acting stupid and foolisch and kind of selfisch. Rereading her first chapters is just frustrating. Yes I am well aware she was a child but to say that only Ned is to blame and not Sansa, feels just wrong to me. People blame her, cus she is, in a way, to blame. Simple as that.
Aerys Targaryen was the king and people couldn't do shit to him. Look how that turned out. I blame Robert Baratheon more than anyone else here for being who he was. As much as he hated the Targaryens, Joffrey and Cersei acted an awful lot like them, and so did Robert in many ways.
About Sansa in this book what I think happens is that there was another outcome in mind for Sansa when it was written. I don't remember the timeline, but when this first book was written, GRRM still thought it would be a trilogy, that Joffrey would live and Sansa would be like Margaery (TV show) in Kingslanding.
The arch of Sansa was of a "villain" or support to the power of the Lannister. This did not change until after GRRM had written several of the books. And indeed, many things about the Sansa-Arya relationship were retcon. In future books we see how, from Sansa's PoV, memories of almost friendship, or sisterhood, are introduced. As for the Sansa-Jeyne-Arya relationship, it was not how it was painted in this first book.
I don't know, these changes make me see this chapter, in the grand scheme of things with a grain of salt. It's like ... What is the meaning of Lady's death? In the original story, it was possibly the point where Sansa would descend and move away from the North. But now? Sansa is in the Vale, she will possibly go North, she hates the Lannisters (Cersei-Joffrey), the Freys and Boltons. She is no longer a mini Cersei, or Margaery who with the change of the timeskip also her plots were modified.
All these changes in the structure and plot of Sansa makes me think that GRRM came up with a different outcome. One better than having her in Kingslanding as a shadow to Cersei's power and source of her obsession.
Wow that is actually quite intresting. I've nevere really thouhgt about it that way
Yeah i've heard that too. Something to do with Sansa having a child.
The hound takes the personality of it's master. With Joff, he is a mad dog. When he is with Arya, he starts to take on the personality of Arya. Arya values innocence.
The biggest concern for Ned, should have Sansa's behaviour. It was the indication on what her education (supervised by a power hungry Southern schemer - Catelyn Stark) resulted in. If not turning back, the nature of Tully influence should have caused suspicion then and there. The text keeps repeating how bad was Arya in accepting this education model, and it should have apparent for Ned, that he seriously needs to reconsider how his daughters are brought up. He is not clueless -he managed to find a right teacher for Arya, and later, in the text Sansa demonstrates the values she had been taught: "i will be a queen and you will have to bow down to me"
Well edmure and lysa are her siblings and she (cat)made numerous bad decisions... letting Jamie go...parlaying with renly and stannis..
What if lyannas stark never ran of with rhaegar and betrothed robert and still had jon... the targaryen line still defeated and in exile but jon grows up as jon baratheon of storms end dragon stone the crownlands and winter fell...and danarys still does her takeover....wow alternate storyline...and they meet????
If she had been queen Arya would have had to bow down to her when Sansa visited her.
@@leahpanya57 Yes. And that was what she chose to focus on during the argument
I think lady dying represents the "lady" inside Sansa dying rather than it being her life. She was brought up to be a lady and that sweet innocent (naive) part of her will be gone in the end.
That and also, I think, her being separated from her family and her identity as a Stark/Tully for a very long time to come. So far, Sansa hasn't been reunited with anyone from her family in the books and even took on the false identity of Alayne, so I think her direwolf (Stark sigil animal) being killed was foreshadowing that too.
Watching Ned have to kill Lady was Sooooo hard!!! Would've been Awesome to see her run and hook up with Nymeria 👀
Stannis's personality has a lot in common with Ned's and Brandon was very similar to Robert. Which makes me wonder if young Benjen was similar to Renly?
Sansa told Ned everything the night Arya left. EVERYTHING. Dollars to Donuts they also discussed what they would say to the King. Sansa might have been TOLD by Ned to say she didn't remember. If she lost her Wolf following his Orders it might explain some things...if Sansa had said Arya fought Joff and almost kicked his ass Cersei would prob have chopped off Arya's hands. Then had her assasinated.
We will never know why, maybe Cersei, maybe Ned, maybe she decided...
@@justarandomgirlvx3578 or she was telling the truth and didn't remember.
Sansa is Caitlyn's daughter through and through. Her ambitions are first then her family. If Caitlyn truly had family first she wouldn't pressure Ned to go south.
And she wouldn’t treat Jon like shit
Well one could argue that she did put her family first in the sense that she believed her daughter would be queen one day. And that, for sure, would benefit her "family"
@@lemya8120 Ned told her he is going to reject the match and she didn't even ask why?! She blindly agreed to marry her daughter to a monster who had so many bad vibes that even a child as young as Aria see that.
@@kaspiansea3997 yeah I get that, and we all know that. But Cateleyn is like that, she utterly believes she is doing the right thing by sending them to Kingslanding. We all know it's stupid and not logical, but according to her she trult thinks she is doing the right thing.
ESP PupsnKits Jon isn’t her family though... He’s just some random kid her husband brought home that she’s forced to be around.
If you like books/series with morally grey characters and a lot of political intrigue, check out the First Law series by Joe Abercombie. His books are in the same vein as ASOIAF. His character work is amazing as well.
Thank you again for having me on! I hope we can do it again soon❤️
Girrrrrll I LOVE YOU! You are a natural!!
GrayArea thank you! It was such a pleasure getting to breakdown this chapter with you.
12:52 I agree! Because the white walkers, or others, are also described as beautiful in the books!
Oh wow I’m rewatching GOT and this is exactly where I’m at with the series
You guys missed something important! Every dire wolf death is a trade for life
Wow Gray, so much hate for a little girl. Wicked
LOL i like her in AFFC. But Game of Thrones Sansa is a pill
I dislike Sansa(at least in intial 2-3 books), Joffrey and Cersei with every essence of my soul.
However I'd like to point out that Joffrey was much badly injured in the books, and direwolves were bigger and far more dangerous in the books.
Any queen would be more likely to get rid of anyone or thing hurting royalty,let alone her child. Cersei being a Lannister and well being her, would order execution for an ant! And this was a ferocious beast , fiercely loyal to Starks.
Also I think Sansa ,as shitty as she was, was sorrounded by King and all those nobility. I'm neither a woman nor am I from middle ages, yet I assume ages, being truthful and going against the queen and crown prince wasn't a piece of cake. Not defending her,just trying to understand character motivation.
Sansa trying to appease Joffrey instead of strongly standing with her family and twisting the truth cost her lady and later her father. Her misguided belief that Joffrey even has some small mercy in him. So I think her arch will be to value family first, everyone else after, to advocate more for what she wants and get it, instead of relying on others to make it happen. To use her gentle lady image like a weapon.
In a way Sansa's dream of what being a lady means dies throughout the books, her childish dreams are being killed by Joffrey. Lady represents the death of Sansa's innocence at the hand of the Lannisters.
I've always wondered why didn't Ned just say to Robert that he’ll send Lady back to winterfell and will not kill her
Because it didn't matter. If Ned refused to personally kill Lady nearly every single person traveling with them would have gladly done it. They should have released her during the commotion after Joffry was bit.
It took me reading the books 3x before it really hit me that Sansa sold her father out, went to Stark Enemy #1 CERSEI LANNISTER, she went to the Mad Queen and gave up his plans to get them home to Winterfell. And the direct results of Sansa betraying her father is that Ned is then imprisoned and later beheaded in front of her!!
I cannot WAIT for that letter in Sansas own handwriting telling her mom and Rob to relinquish his crown and swear fealty to the Iron Throne, to get to Jon or Arya or someone!!
The whole point is that Sansa got played though... She didn’t realise what Cersei and Joffrey were planning for her family and by the time she caught on it was too late.
Ned's words to Arya about the pack survives while the lone wolf dies is embedded in her subconscious that it impacts her wolf, Nymeria. Her wolf pack runs deep.
I'm just realizing Arya escapes like Nymeria so it would make more sense for Sansa to die because it was foreshadowed with Lady dying.
Well Ned thinks something like 'Lannisters won't get this furry coat' but later Sansa is married to a Lannister with a cloak exchange.
Thinking of how much power the husband has over the wife (and this extends to betrothed couples, since they were barely a step below marriage): if a minor lord (the Mountain) got away with killing 3 wives, what chance did Sansa have of justice with Joeffrey?
Once again y'all brought that sweet summer juice i needed. Thank u!!!#
Oh hey. Glad y’all are doing these readings again!
Please keep this Series going
Gray Area!!!
Ned Stark is the Hank Hill of Westeros.
Gray Lady returns
This was great! I listened twice. Thank y’all so much 🖤
In betraying Arya, Sansa showed Joffrey that she was not loyal. Thus he had no qualms about treating her as a traitor when the war withRobb started
I think the names of the wolves are more important to the future of the kids then what happens to the wolves. I dont think the dire wolf dying means the characters will die.
Grayarea always makes our hump day better!
I know this was just a short tangent in the video, but regarding Stannis: honestly, him not having the same charisma as Renly and Robert makes perfect sense to me, because I see Stannis as very much on the autism spectrum (high-functioning, of course). That very neat conception of right and wrong he has, the way he both rewarded and punished Davos because "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward." His lack of (and disdain for) charisma, his mannerisms, his nitpicking, his nursing of grudges, and so on... a lot about him is personally familiar to me.
I always believed Neds' honour was more from his time as a ward of House Arryn. With their house words 'As high as Honour'.
Such a pleasure listening to y’all! I’ve often wondered if Lady warged into Sansa 4 safekeeping. Maybe that will come into play in the Winds of Winter?
"Is killing of your love redemption?" Answer, azor ahai, gray is asking
It really doesn't surprise me that Sansa didn't stick up for Arya. They absolutely do not like eachother, and she's all in for being a good lady for the Prince. It *is* ironic considering the Tully house words, it's true.
Such a great episode
MY QUEEN RETURNS!!
I missed that Greek goddess voice
Sweet Summer Juice!
What is interesting...in the books Catelyn wants Ned to go be the Hand, in the show she doesn't want him to go, she's also much crueler in the books to Jon, she tells him it should have been him that fell from the tower!
Thanks for another awesome video made my day grey
Great podcast.
The Gods punished Ned for kin-slaying.
I LOVED listening to you both. It's so nice to hear aSoIcF stuff from a more femme perspective. I am thanking the algorithm gods in my garden for the opportunity to hang out and listen. You're both brilliant!
I don't think Ned is as stupid as you think. You have to rememember we as readers have a wider view of the bigger picture than Ned. Also we have the luxury of looking in hindsight. Were there signs that he saw and someway ignored? Sure. But as far as he knows there was a still chance everything wouldn't absolutely go to hell. As opposed to Ned denying the Kings prepositon to marry their children and form a stronger bond between Stark and Baratheon. Spurning the Baratheons and Lannisters SEEMED like a much worse choice to Ned. But we have the chance to look in hindsight and see that may not be the case at all.
"The one time she should be obiedient and tell the king she doesn't"
Except everything about book 1 Sansa makes a lot more sense if she was telling the truth and she didn't actually remember.
Unpopular opinion: The Hound didn't kill Mycah; Jaime did in a half-baked attempt to impress Cersei since he failed to kill Arya. And as House Lannister's sworn shield, The Hound simply took the fall.
Nothing like Sweet summer Juice in the morning!!!! Goood morning!!!!!
GA!!!
A long video.... Yasssss
Oh Gray I hope you bring her back! You both have great chemistry!
He couldn't head back.
It would mean war with Robert. Cersei would convince Robert to attack. At this point, Robert isn't the same man. So.. Ned had no choice, unfortunately..
Robert would take offense, but he wouldn't just go to war against him because he was offended. That would lose him support since there's no actual reason for combat.
@@winterwolf7423 but, the text proves over and over again that The LANNISTERS would have. Cersei would have said everything that Cat told Ned when Ned said he was going to refuse.
Animosity was already boiling over between Stark and Lannister.. bad things wouldve happened if he left after this situation.
@@winterwolf7423 Cersei would have had Ned stripped of being Warden of the North, which would have 100% led to war between Lannister and Stark. GRRM made it very clear from the start that Ned was doomed either way.
It was a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't situation.
@@thisguy8106 Stripping Ned of the Warden of the North title would have been meaningless. All it would have done was alienate the North from the Iron Throne. It's not like any of the other northern lords would listen to a southerner who was appointed over them. Without dragons and without the need to hold the more vulnerable Riverlands, it would be easy to hold the North against whatever southern forces could be mustered. And what forces could be mustered? The Riverlands were strongly tied to the North through marriage. The Iron Islands already took an opportunity to rebel before. Dorne hates the Lannisters. The Tyrells were trying to unseat and replace the Lannisters. If it resulted in war, with the Starks firmly holding up in the North, they would actually be at an advantage while the rest of the realm broke into pieces.
But this all still forgets Robert and his love for Ned. He will not war against him even if Cersei pushes for it. He gives into her in ways that don't matter to him on a sentimental level like killing Lady and shifting a military title from a child to a grown man. But no matter how much Cersei demanded that Arya be killed or maimed, he refused because of his love for Ned. We know from later POVs of the Lannister twins that he would not budge on that. If he wouldn't harm Ned's child he definitely wouldn't hurt Ned himself. He would blame Cersei and Joffrey (who he doesn't care for) for the loss of his friend and he would be that much more eager to replace Cersei with Margaery, a plan that's already in play.
@@winterwolf7423 you make great points, but you're ignoring the fact that the animosity between Lannister and Stark was reaching a boiling point. If Ned had resigned, in THAT moment, in front of everyone there.. it WOULD have started a war.
Or do people forget that Tywin was already completely ready for war as soon as Tyrion was kidnapped.
How and why was Tywin already completely set up for war? If he didn't know it was coming?? Almost as if he knew that Jon Arryn and Stannis found out about the incest and was prepared to attack anyone at a moments notice.
It takes a long time to gather up an army as large as Tywins.. and yet.. they were Already gathered up and marching as soon as Tyrion was kidnapped..🤷♂️ i mean.. this is all pointless lol because of how it turned out.. but I believe that Ned resigning and leaving right then would have caused something bad to happen. So either way he was doomed.
when you say Sansa should at least be a sister to Arya it breaks my heart because that's all Arya wants.
The woman on your show keeps saying she would do the same thing but you gotta take into account the time back then and she is betrothed to this boy whose not just a boy he is a prince and the son of king Robert (as least that’s what she thinks). So what she does is understandable but what is she supposed to do say “fuck it, I’m not marrying him” and then leaves for winterfell. That wouldn’t be much of a story, but it’s perfectly believable that sansa did what she did
Wish you had got someone who related to Sansa for discussions about Sansa :(
I did for Sansa 1 and Sansa 2. Both are done with Sansa Fans
GrayArea As good as this episode was it lacked an in-depth view of the chapter. You were so focused on disliking Sansa that you forgot about the political aspect of the scene. Sansa telling the truth would not have been a good thing. Ladies are supposed to be obidient to their husbands and have his back and not embarass him in public. She did what she was taught was the right thing.
Look forward to my weekly long night juice 🥤
Every time I hear the name Sansa my mood sours. All I can think of is her being shady 2 the Dragon Queen and spilling Jon's secret! Ned's not dumb just naive!
Dude that's not in any of the books. Maybe don't judge a book character by it's TV adaptation?
If they returned to Winterfell I think the Lannisters would have a reason to fight war against them...
These podcasts are awesome ... keep them coming! thanks grey area
Hello there Gray, love you and Obsidian Nights. So I watched the series and you and Talking Thrones got me hype to take on the books. So Im on a Clash Of King's. Loving them of course. When I got to this chapter I literally balled like a baby for Lady and for Ned's foolish honorable behavior. I skimmed poor Lady's execution. I can handle the people death's but the animals just tear me up. I am not looking forward to Greywinds death in a SOS thankfully that is a ways off. Okay thanks so much.
What i find really annoying about Sansa betraying Ned to Cercei in King's Landing is that he had just told the girls that the lone wolf dies but the pack survives, yet she just goes ahead on a lone wolf tantrum and kills her pack! She won't listen to anything nor take responsibility for her own actions. She is totally deluded. I guess that's why i have a hard time feeling bad for her later on, i just feel like she so brought it on herself... I agree that her dying for the pack would make sense from the story point of view, though i wish she'd live and become part of the pack! Also Arya is so "for the pack", if she ends up in Nymeria ruling her pack of wild wolves that also makes sense. Oh but i do wish the girls would live...
Ned should have secretly sent Lady back to Winterfell with the body of the butcher's son... I mean, didn't a small group of people turn around at this point to take the body back to Winterfell? The story could have been so much more interesting... more robust... if Lady had only survived somehow. But you are right... my first thought was that Ned should have turned around at this point and went back home.
I just came her to co-sign Lady Deserved better but Imma stay for the whole video.
Did bloodraven or Bran influence the situation to put everyone on their paths?
Started here, finished on Spotify then came back bc I forgot to like video 😂 That's lvl of my love for this podcast (keep in mind I'm extremely lazy person💀🤣)
I love you for that!! ❤️
It was too late for Ned to turn back. Robert would view it as an act of disloyalty and his family would be at risk.
Sansa was/is too stupid to live. Unfortunately, everyone besides Sansa paid and is paying the cost of her stupidity. And the fact Baelish isn't making bells go off in her head makes me want to jump in the pages and ask her WTF!? Why hasn't she asked about her road dog Jeyne Poole? And it is really strange that neither Ned nor Sansa got one after Joffrey's attempt to kill Arya.
Not gonna lie at Neds place I would have taken Lady in the woods let her go and find another she wolf to kill and pretend that one is Lady. Then again in Neds place I would have also turned back by this point.
he will not be Ned if he doing what you do though.
Good
I'd say "The Lady Sansa" has already died--she's lost all her illusions and is going by a different name. Plus, I think Lady being killed in place of Nymeria makes up for a lot of Sansa's mistreatment of Arya.
No it doesn’t! Lady died because Sansa lied to the King to cover for her beloved bastard Lannister.
lol do you realize how awful that sounds?
Lions tooth guffaw 😂
Sansa will die but not literally, she will remain as Alayane Stone. The fandom brings up secret identities over and over again, so with Sansa we can see how a character gets to that point.
And Arya is 9 years old😉
*GrayArea* Good content
I made it about a dozen pages into the silmarilion and noped the fuck outta there.
Why do people aggressively hate Sansa for wanting a perfect future :( she was a preteen
Her perfect life was at the cost of death- Arya, Lady, Ned, the Butcher's boy. She is so selfish, self centered and stuck up. Perfection is not pretty.. it is love which she has none.
@@mbranche4234 she was a child.
Yeah people act like children are so wise... When you shelter a child and then throw them into the lions den what do you expect lol... we can’t expect children to know better but these experiences will definitely shape or break a person. Sansa just learned her lessons in the hardest way
@@sabrinakrisb4672 so was Arya Myca, and Joffrey
9822703 You are acting like they were planning on sparring Myca. Cersei wanted the Wolf and butcher’s boy dead whether Sansa went along or not.
Can you make a video on jhon and robs relationship
I disagree with them about the hound and the butcher boy
More than anyone else,
the hound Knows Who Joffrey Is .
He's worked for the lannisters for years and Knows Thier Cruelty.
He thought of him Quickly Killing the butchers boy as a mercy compared to what would most likely happen if they'd decided
Everyone loves to criticize Ned. Turning around in the Riverlands because his kids got in a fight would be the weakest move in history. Ned has to go to Kings landing. His best life long friend who helped him avenge the murder of his father and brother asked him for help. Not to mention the king has asked him for help. Don't forget that his mentor and someone he respected very much was likely murdered. Ned is not naive to the danger he is going into. He has to go. He has to figure out what is going on. What problem does staying in the North solve?
They all deserved better, but the budget :(
Lady's death was awful and Sansas fault. She didn't deserve Lady. Poor lady 😰😪
Honestly I both adore and respect GRRM, his ingenuity, his prose, the sheer richness & MAGNITUDE of his worldbuilding made me a true believer in dragons, grumkins and fucking spy trees with faces ................but *deadass* Lady herself will show up on my doorstep with a signed copy of WoW and a extra large pizza before GRRM gains enough mastery of his craft to make me not hate on that lil shit Sansa every time she’s so much as mentioned in passing 😑
If Lady showed up on my doorsteo, I'd be so happy I'd cry. She'd be such a wonderful companion
Also.. A signed copy of wow and extra large pizza... That was very funny 🤣🤣
I HATE Sansa at the start of the books. I’m starting to like her later on but then I read chapters like this and UGH I can’t
Wednesday y’all!
The foil for Ned is Stannis. This both are joyless twats.
I really think in the end we will see that Ned deserved his death.
This false piety make me sick. He gets upset with Cate for not liking Jon but then happily eats a meal with the family leaving Jon a 14 year old by himself in the back of the hall. That is not a good person.
There is also the backstory on how Benjen got to the wall that does not make sense. Which I also believe has something to do with Ned.
I''m 99.899% sure that Ned has more to do with Lyanna's death than he has let on.
Just like Stannis and Renly, it may not have been hands on but he is to blame.
I think Ned more a good person than a bad one, but he is manipulated very easily. He would let Jon sit with him if Catelyn would have respect for him. Ned does Jon a favour though. Otherwise Jon would need to deal with Cat's coldness every second he sits there and would really feel like he is not wanted. Sitting in the back of the hall already makes you feel like a misfit, but sitting with them together even more. At least he can be himself there.
Also the others from the north would see it as inappropriate and lose respect. And Jon does get almost the same education as all the others and has access to almost everything in Winterfell. He doesn't have it the worst. The only thing he is not prepared for compared to the other children is to hold like a castle or something... He has a very good relationship with everybody except Catelyn (bad relationship), Sansa (neutral relationship) and Rickon (also neutral relationship, but Rickon is basically a baby... )
Also is Ned obligated to treat him like a bastard. He doesn't want anyone to be suspicious of him and his heritage. I am almost 100% sure that R+L=J and Ned has a huge responsibility for him... So he has to keep him safe. Because Jon would definitely be killed if anybody finds out. And since Ned was not able to protect Jon in Winterfell he let him go to the wall. I don't think he would have sent him there if Jon didn't want to. The wall is not the safest place for sure, but Jon has no claim anymore to anything since he is a brother of the Night's Watch. That would safe him from being murdered under King Robert's command if anybody ever finds out that Jon is a Targaryen.
@@justarandomgirlvx3578 I think he is like Stannis a slave to tradition. His first major action was WRONGFULLY killing the deserter. If he had just listened he could have acted immediately on the real threat in the north.
His second decision was to kill all the dire wolf pups. Luckily he was talked out of it.
His third decision was to put a hit on Jorah Mormont.
Ned has no problem killing people, but unfortunately he doesn't analyse the situation he just reacts.
The problem with Ned is that he doesn't do nuance he can't see grey everything with him is black or white because reasons... and the old ways.
Just like this video he got five gazillion red flags but he keeps going because... reasons.
GRRM is clearly painting him as a fool, but dressed in "tradition" and "patriotism".
There is NOT ONE decision he has made that was correct. Which leads me to ask what were his decisions in the past???
What really happened with Lyanna?
Lyanna giving birth to a bastard... were does that fall in Ned's sense of upholding tradition?
What I think really happened is that Lyanna died giving birth (dire wolf) and Ned wanted to kill the baby (pups). I think that Lyanna was resurrected to warn Ned not to hurt the baby... Promise me Ned.
Ned was so freaked that he put Lyanna in the crypts the only woman in Stark history.
I call her statue in the crypts the Oracle of Lies --- Everything that is said in front of her is a lie:
Robert: I have a son (lie) and you have a daughter (lie) lets join our families together.
@@DD-ok2pt I am not sure about your Lyanna theory, but the Stannis comparison makes sense.
@@justarandomgirlvx3578 No, actually. We see in later books that Cersei's council is going to send assassin's to the Wall for Jon, and that's believing he is Ned's son. The wall is not safe, and Ned was a coward.
Oh Ned, you should have gone home