I WAS THE PILOT, flyin a PA-28-151, transiting from Brown Field (SDM) to Gillespie Field (SEE), and was called as traffic to Flt 182, who said they had the traffic in sight--they DID NOT! Both aircraft were operating under IFR at the time, within a TRSA. Flight 182 RAN OVER THE C-172 FROM BEHIND! It was a Company flight, there was a party going on, and there were 7 unidentified voices on the CVR. I was interviewed by local Channel 39 on the 5 year anniversary of the crash. ALL the changes put in place by the FAA, would have made NO DIFFERENCE on that day... Hammer USAF SSgt; US Army CW4/SrAviator; INS/,ICE/CBP, ret.
I was in a Cherokee Warrior, a LOW WINGED aircraft, and was transitioning from the Poggi VOR north of Brown Field, back to Gillespie. My best guess is somewhere aroundHwy 54 to 94 in the Spring Valley area, I was kind of paralleling it as I went Northbound towards Gillespie. When called as traffic to Flight 182, they would have seen me low at about 10 o'clock to them, and we'll away. They would have probably seen nothing but the sun glinting off MY wings. That's what I remember, today. I lost 6 classmates that day, who were PSA employees--more than we lost to Vietnam... Hammer
Wonder if the CVR tape the FFA never released will one day find its way to youtube. I doubt it. It may hold many answers to this horrible atrocity. Thank you for sharing your experience on that horrible day.
Excellent podcast Dan and Christy. It is amazing how much technology we have in the aircraft now. Thank you for sharing the details of this historic crash. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friends 🇺🇸🛩️
I was someone's RA. I was on flight following, and I heard the RA klaxon over the radio and a call to ATC about maneuvering for an RA. Several seconds later a twin Airbus or Boeing goes screaming by above me and to the right from behind. So much for flight following. YMMV.
I have flown into Lindbergh field dozens of times as a passenger. Landing in a neighborhood like Midway in Chicago. You watch the tops of the buildings go above you!
I see you are at 99k followers. Is that a blue parachute Chrissy has around her?! LOL The photo that was taken of that PSA plane going straight done was mind bending. Like Dan, I have considered what I would be doing in that situation. Really anything you do is meaningless if the result is inevitable. When I have had people say to me, "aren't you afraid of crashing when you go flying?" I tell them if the read about me crashing, they should know that I was singing all the way to the ground because I want to enjoy my last few seconds of life!!
I knew the Kramers in the cherokee involved in the aeromexico crash..saw them at KTOA that morning in passing while I was pulling up to the Southwest Skyways Cessna FBO for a short flight to Chino for lunch with friends...we later saw the smoke but didn't realize it was them till we reached Chino...Christy is correct in that the piper wasn't where he was supposed to be
Look into the Falcon 50 mid air in 1985 at Teterboro. I witnessed everything. From prior communications to point of impact. And after the impact. I remember word by word between the tower, falcon 50 and the piper still to this day. It was avoidable. The dominos started falling way before the Falcon even entered the picture. NTSB never interviewed me, even though I sent them my witness report. I read their report after their investigation and surprisingly it seemed to me that they did not get it right. Remember, Reagan fired the controllers. Due to that, KTEB made changes in their airspace procedures, due to the lack of experience of the controllers. KTEB did not have radar at that time and that played a big part in that incident. Things that played into that accident, were not discussed in the report. 39 years later, I can still hear the voices of the pilots and controller and the visuals. That moment of impact and the moments right after that was unbelievable. Tower did not know and looking around me at the airport, even though I was the only one on the East side of the field, I felt that no one knew what had happened. There was a Bonanza calling in to land from the NW and the tower told him he will be number 2 to land, behind the Falcon, even though the plume of smoke, approximately 5 miles to the East was very visible. It was so strange. The tower even asked for a position report from the Falcon. I thought that maybe I was mistaken. I drove to the west side of the field, just to see if this was just a jump to a bad conclusion. I saw a few people their with their kids, just hanging out like people always do. I can see the Plume flowing towards the south and the people apparently not aware of what happened. Not wanting to cry wolf, I did not say anything. The news stations did not yet mention anything on the radio either. It had to be 15 minutes after the mid air. The controller was talking to other incoming planes as if nothing happened. I did not know the area but I wound up heading towards the plume and it was surreal when I got there. Reporters from different news agencies were live on the air and were giving false facts on the air of what had happened. No one knew what had happened at the scene. I wanted to give them the actual facts but my instincts kept me from doing that. I wanted to save that for the NTSB. I actually saw the section of the left wing tip laying on the ground. Caution tape was already there. That was the point of impact from the prop of the Cherokee. About 5 feet of the wing hit a street light on the corner of Cliff Street and laid on the ground with black marks from when the fuel tank exploded in the air about 1500 feet. I knew that was the point of impact. NYC skyline was the distraction with this accident. It was avoidable if only the controller did the one thing that was imposed due to the aftermath of controller's strike. No VFR flights through the KTEB airspace for transitioning aircraft not landing at KTEB. The Falcon also played a part. They were VFR from KMMU. They reported inbound with confusing reporting points. CLIFFO then WAYNES in the same sentence. Those to reporting points were miles away from each other. The Tower said to report over head. The pilot of the Falcon sounded like a student pilot, learning to talk to the controller. That is what got my attention to this whole thing in the first place. Although I was first aware of something was different. when the Piper was allowed into the airspace to begin with. Because the Piper was transitioning, their altitude is 1500 feet and because the Falcon is a jet, they come overhead at 1500 feet for VFR pattern to land for runways 19 and 24. That was the conflict. To add to the conflict, I believe the Falcon was much closer to KTEB than reported. He was overhead in less time than anticipated and the Tower sounded perplexed. Believe it or not, the Falcon narrowly avoided an initial mid air with the Piper and did something that made no sense after, which caused the mid air. I have much more to say but I said enough.
Please share your thoughts on how GA pilots in particular can maximize their visibility and what techniques can be used to maintain separation when in close proximity but without visual contact.
The Cessna didn't turn onto the course assigned by ATC...that is not something that is part of IFR training; when you're assigned a heading by ATC you turn onto that course. Had the Cessna been on its assigned course, it would have passed off to the right of the PSA jet, as Capt McFeron fatally assumed. The Cessna being off course occasioned a dissenting opinion on the final report.
Bravo was "created" because of PSA 182? Negative. Class Bravo appeared in the US in 1993 when US airspace was reclassified to align with international airspace standards. Prior to Class B, the United States had TCA's or Terminal Control Areas. They were tiered structures like the "upside down wedding cake" we are familiar with. TCA's came in 2 flavors, Group I and Group II and exercised positive control of all aircraft with other restrictions. TCA's existed long before PSA 182 and with little change became Class B airspace in 1993. Significant misinformation for an "aviation channel"
One of the things about pilots is they can't admit they're only human and they only have human eyes. The fastest thing in the world that's comparable to a pilot is maybe 180 hawk, if you cut its eyesight apart and analyze the eyes the nerves and everything you would find they have probably 100 times the acuity and focusing talent and various things that a person does. The only pilot I ever saw willing to admit how lousy human eyesight was was one of the sky cowboy guys he had a 2 million-dollar airplane and he went buzzing and Hill hopping in and out of canyons with it. He said on his airplane he had a xenon searchlight bulb so other pilots could see him in the sky. There's no possible way if that airplane was flat black flying over a white snowfield that the pilot could have kept it in sight at the speeds they are moving are moving. The color made no difference at all he's only human. When you see a hawk sitting on a telephone pole and he flies almost a hundred yards and nails a mouse on the ground he was seeing that mouse 100 yd away. You can't see a mouse 100 yd away.
I WAS THE PILOT, flyin a PA-28-151, transiting from Brown Field (SDM) to Gillespie Field (SEE), and was called as traffic to Flt 182, who said they had the traffic in sight--they DID NOT! Both aircraft were operating under IFR at the time, within a TRSA. Flight 182 RAN OVER THE C-172 FROM BEHIND! It was a Company flight, there was a party going on, and there were 7 unidentified voices on the CVR. I was interviewed by local Channel 39 on the 5 year anniversary of the crash. ALL the changes put in place by the FAA, would have made NO DIFFERENCE on that day...
Hammer
USAF SSgt; US Army CW4/SrAviator; INS/,ICE/CBP, ret.
Wow, interesting.
I was in a Cherokee Warrior, a LOW WINGED aircraft, and was transitioning from the Poggi VOR north of Brown Field, back to Gillespie. My best guess is somewhere aroundHwy 54 to 94 in the Spring Valley area, I was kind of paralleling it as I went Northbound towards Gillespie. When called as traffic to Flight 182, they would have seen me low at about 10 o'clock to them, and we'll away. They would have probably seen nothing but the sun glinting off MY wings. That's what I remember, today. I lost 6 classmates that day, who were PSA employees--more than we lost to Vietnam... Hammer
Wonder if the CVR tape the FFA never released will one day find its way to youtube. I doubt it. It may hold many answers to this horrible atrocity. Thank you for sharing your experience on that horrible day.
Dan turn up the heat in studio, Christy looks like she’s freezing- lol
🥶
Excellent podcast Dan and Christy. It is amazing how much technology we have in the aircraft now. Thank you for sharing the details of this historic crash. Keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friends 🇺🇸🛩️
I was someone's RA. I was on flight following, and I heard the RA klaxon over the radio and a call to ATC about maneuvering for an RA. Several seconds later a twin Airbus or Boeing goes screaming by above me and to the right from behind. So much for flight following. YMMV.
I have flown into Lindbergh field dozens of times as a passenger. Landing in a neighborhood like Midway in Chicago. You watch the tops of the buildings go above you!
I see you are at 99k followers. Is that a blue parachute Chrissy has around her?! LOL The photo that was taken of that PSA plane going straight done was mind bending. Like Dan, I have considered what I would be doing in that situation. Really anything you do is meaningless if the result is inevitable. When I have had people say to me, "aren't you afraid of crashing when you go flying?" I tell them if the read about me crashing, they should know that I was singing all the way to the ground because I want to enjoy my last few seconds of life!!
Looks like Christie is wearing the parachute
Good morning from Minnesota! Great episode!
I knew the Kramers in the cherokee involved in the aeromexico crash..saw them at KTOA that morning in passing while I was pulling up to the Southwest Skyways Cessna FBO for a short flight to Chino for lunch with friends...we later saw the smoke but didn't realize it was them till we reached Chino...Christy is correct in that the piper wasn't where he was supposed to be
This is an awesome channel ! Always so informative, entertaining and educational!
Look into the Falcon 50 mid air in 1985 at Teterboro. I witnessed everything. From prior communications to point of impact. And after the impact. I remember word by word between the tower, falcon 50 and the piper still to this day. It was avoidable. The dominos started falling way before the Falcon even entered the picture. NTSB never interviewed me, even though I sent them my witness report. I read their report after their investigation and surprisingly it seemed to me that they did not get it right. Remember, Reagan fired the controllers. Due to that, KTEB made changes in their airspace procedures, due to the lack of experience of the controllers. KTEB did not have radar at that time and that played a big part in that incident. Things that played into that accident, were not discussed in the report. 39 years later, I can still hear the voices of the pilots and controller and the visuals. That moment of impact and the moments right after that was unbelievable. Tower did not know and looking around me at the airport, even though I was the only one on the East side of the field, I felt that no one knew what had happened. There was a Bonanza calling in to land from the NW and the tower told him he will be number 2 to land, behind the Falcon, even though the plume of smoke, approximately 5 miles to the East was very visible. It was so strange. The tower even asked for a position report from the Falcon. I thought that maybe I was mistaken. I drove to the west side of the field, just to see if this was just a jump to a bad conclusion. I saw a few people their with their kids, just hanging out like people always do. I can see the Plume flowing towards the south and the people apparently not aware of what happened. Not wanting to cry wolf, I did not say anything. The news stations did not yet mention anything on the radio either. It had to be 15 minutes after the mid air. The controller was talking to other incoming planes as if nothing happened. I did not know the area but I wound up heading towards the plume and it was surreal when I got there. Reporters from different news agencies were live on the air and were giving false facts on the air of what had happened. No one knew what had happened at the scene. I wanted to give them the actual facts but my instincts kept me from doing that. I wanted to save that for the NTSB. I actually saw the section of the left wing tip laying on the ground. Caution tape was already there. That was the point of impact from the prop of the Cherokee. About 5 feet of the wing hit a street light on the corner of Cliff Street and laid on the ground with black marks from when the fuel tank exploded in the air about 1500 feet. I knew that was the point of impact. NYC skyline was the distraction with this accident. It was avoidable if only the controller did the one thing that was imposed due to the aftermath of controller's strike. No VFR flights through the KTEB airspace for transitioning aircraft not landing at KTEB. The Falcon also played a part. They were VFR from KMMU. They reported inbound with confusing reporting points. CLIFFO then WAYNES in the same sentence. Those to reporting points were miles away from each other. The Tower said to report over head. The pilot of the Falcon sounded like a student pilot, learning to talk to the controller. That is what got my attention to this whole thing in the first place. Although I was first aware of something was different. when the Piper was allowed into the airspace to begin with. Because the Piper was transitioning, their altitude is 1500 feet and because the Falcon is a jet, they come overhead at 1500 feet for VFR pattern to land for runways 19 and 24. That was the conflict. To add to the conflict, I believe the Falcon was much closer to KTEB than reported. He was overhead in less time than anticipated and the Tower sounded perplexed. Believe it or not, the Falcon narrowly avoided an initial mid air with the Piper and did something that made no sense after, which caused the mid air. I have much more to say but I said enough.
I was in class at Point Loma High School and heard the impact.
Please share your thoughts on how GA pilots in particular can maximize their visibility and what techniques can be used to maintain separation when in close proximity but without visual contact.
Sterile cockpit rule went into effect in 1981.
The Cessna didn't turn onto the course assigned by ATC...that is not something that is part of IFR training; when you're assigned a heading by ATC you turn onto that course. Had the Cessna been on its assigned course, it would have passed off to the right of the PSA jet, as Capt McFeron fatally assumed. The Cessna being off course occasioned a dissenting opinion on the final report.
👍✅ Very informative, tks
135 on aircraft 2 cessna rest ground
99k 99k 99k just saying!
The cessna and atc were to blame
Sterile cockpit wasn't in place at the time you can't blame them
They did have the same technology it wasn't used
Bravo was "created" because of PSA 182? Negative.
Class Bravo appeared in the US in 1993 when US airspace was reclassified to align with international airspace standards. Prior to Class B, the United States had TCA's or Terminal Control Areas. They were tiered structures like the "upside down wedding cake" we are familiar with. TCA's came in 2 flavors, Group I and Group II and exercised positive control of all aircraft with other restrictions. TCA's existed long before PSA 182 and with little change became Class B airspace in 1993.
Significant misinformation for an "aviation channel"
One of the things about pilots is they can't admit they're only human and they only have human eyes. The fastest thing in the world that's comparable to a pilot is maybe 180 hawk, if you cut its eyesight apart and analyze the eyes the nerves and everything you would find they have probably 100 times the acuity and focusing talent and various things that a person does. The only pilot I ever saw willing to admit how lousy human eyesight was was one of the sky cowboy guys he had a 2 million-dollar airplane and he went buzzing and Hill hopping in and out of canyons with it. He said on his airplane he had a xenon searchlight bulb so other pilots could see him in the sky. There's no possible way if that airplane was flat black flying over a white snowfield that the pilot could have kept it in sight at the speeds they are moving are moving. The color made no difference at all he's only human. When you see a hawk sitting on a telephone pole and he flies almost a hundred yards and nails a mouse on the ground he was seeing that mouse 100 yd away. You can't see a mouse 100 yd away.