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.223 Rem - 65gr Cutting Edge MTH with 8208XBR and Varget
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- Опубликовано: 14 июл 2018
- Trying out the 65gr MTH (Match/Tactical/Hunting) from Cutting Edge Bullets in .223 Remington. The test powders are IMR 8208 XBR and Hodgdon Varget.
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UPDATED 09/27/2018 - All links have been removed to comply with RUclips content policies.
www.patreon.com/reloading
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The seal could have been getting scrapped up by the feed ramps? Still weird though.
I think you're right and I should have checked this. I'll have a look in the next video. I might need to seat the band below the case mouth a bit so it's protected. Thanks for the tip!
Or maybe hand feed them? My thought was as the powder charge increases so does the recoil as well as the distortion of the band. These are interesting projectiles.
Could be concentricity. I made a gauge and marked my high spots then loaded them all with the mark up in the mag and my groups shrunk. Also a faster twist is probably needed to stabilize solid copper bullets.
More Questions than Answers. That is Reloading, the testing never stops.
It appears the butterfly is even more effective than "The Lump".
Loads of Bacon
To funny
looks like it lol
Yeah where can we purchase the butterfly and do you have a discount code for them?
My NcStar moth is just as good and 1/4 the price
I watch all your videos! And have learned a lot . This is the first video I did not watch in till the end . Keep the videos coming .
I really enjoy your videos very informative. You have inspired me to start reloading keep the videos coming.
That second group of Varget is absolutely sick. .356 is amazing.
I haven't been keeping close track but I'm pretty sure that would be in the top 10 groups I've shot with this gun.
That's the same charge I use on my load for Sierra game king
Very scientific test. Thanks for sharing all your work.
I learned that sprinkling your rifle with butterfly wing dust will result in amazing groups. Time to bottle that and sell it.
Love your videos as always!
I was just looking at that brand thanks for your videos I really started reading because of your videos well I've been wanting to u just helped me hurry up and buy it I spent 1600 and still need stuff I got the same press love it and Redding match die set so thanks man
I really appreciate what you're doing. I would call and ask them to take back the second box and add these to the 'do not use' list.
Great video JRB. At $1 a shoot I also would have no desire to learn on or shoot these bullets. Unless they are shooting bug holes I see no reason to pay that when more consistent proven match and hunting bullets are less than half the price. But non the less thanks for bringing a new uncommon product out there for everyone to see.
Thus video was great, Johnny. But I can't find the sequel. In this video you said you were going to use the rest to play more and do gel testing.
This type of bullet rarely ever gets testing videos. They're BEAUTIFUL and this brand is held in very high regard by long range shooters online, and a relatively small group of hunters who use them.
Glad to see you back shooting groups. One thing I think would be interesting would be to see some pressure signs on the brass. Maybe buy a cheap rifle and load some high pressure loads and use a string to fire it. Seeing some flattened primers and some good smears in person would be good info for reloaders to look out for.
Good to see you using Aussie powders.
Those are hunting bullets, and if you consider the hunting scenario, all of your graduating load groups are very acceptable.
Agree, the band meets the lands, I'm curious, your bbl. likely 5r button, but the polygonal bbl., with rounded lands, superior bullet seal, less bullet DEFORMATION.
Those tender "vittles " you're sending down range might be getting scuffed.
That would explain the deviations on all but one group. Either way, you have an efficient hunting round, that is non-lead friendly.
Bravo.
30k subscribers. Where's your next tour date, classes filled? What? A waiting list? How many, have the master conduct the class? I watch, and think...this is rocket science, that box of 20 Federal Prem. with Nostler Partitioned look pretty good.
But, we're not quittin...Everyone loves this channel.
Over the years, I have had SO-SO performance with these bullets. They are super hard to figure out which translates to, TOO EXPENSIVE to figure out. I have had the EXACT same results as you in my TIKKA T3 in 6.5-55 Swed. Hornady Bullets are my EVERYTHING bullet
Great video as usual brother..... just crazy expensive projectiles that I would never buy when I can get Sierra's or Hornady for half the price.
45% humidity is a great day in south Florida. It’s usually at or over 85% humidity here during the summer. I was fascinated by the butterfly and forgot about watching the groups.
I had a special Savage Bore Rider barrel built for these bullets in 6.5 LBC (Grendel) with no throat. I found that these bullets were very sensitive to twist rate vs velocity vs powder. After a lot of money down the drain I got a throating reamer and added lead in ten thousands increments. Never got to a stable formula. One day I put some factory 6.5 Grendel (Hornady) rounds through the barrel and shot .6 inch groups all day, all round groups. I then switched over to Sierra 120 gr. HPBT, LVR, Rem 71/2 and shot even tighter groups. Best I can figure is these solid copper bullets are good for barrel break in, and little else.
For what it's worth, on my T7 press I keep a little 4 thou shim in the rear of it between the turret and the press body to keep the turret from twisting when seating and resizing. I noticed some improvement with my match loads (500 yard FTR)
I'd just have to try that Varget 24.1 "super group" again with maybe a tenth above and below...just to firm it in my mind that my rifle really liked the load. For sure, the $$$ factor for these bullets is harsh.
Great video!
Thanks! Great comment!
lmao.
These loads should be retested during the colder months. I've been informed that Varget is quite temp sensitive, not sure about XBR, our local 8208 powder is quite stable. Maybe the results will reverse in colder temps (just a thought).
Always great to watch your informative vids JRB. Many, many thanks.
Cheers from down under :)
You have been I'll informed. Varget is extremely stable. One of the most stable powders in fact.
Greatly misinformed. Varget is insanely stable
Johnny I thought I'd add this observation, don't know if you follow it or not but supposedly it can help differentiate bullets performance. When switching between bullets for accuracy testing it's best to thoroughly clean your barrel of previous gilded metal to get a true presentation of groups and or accuracy. Hope this helps you and or others...
These solid bullets definitely hold my full attention when you make a video about them. Very interesting, great job. I’ve heard you choose the velocity you want, do a jump test and they are dialed in. At least for the long range Bullets that’s how they work
Sometimes you do some boring videos. Then go you and do something like this and completely redeem yourself. Great test of a wacky/innovative product. Thanks Johnny!
Thanks Johnnie
Woah I got a commercial on your video. That is good news. Man those bullets are expensive....
had similar results with Nosler RDF 130gn in my Grendel.
Have you tried the Barnes solid copper bullets? I haven't done a ton with them, but even with minimal load development they shot pretty well. Might be another to look at.I know they have a 62 grain for 223 that I loaded for javelina hunting (didn't get to see what they do since I didn't even see one to shoot at...)
Yay ballistics gel! Gotta get out and find that lucky butterfly:) Are the goofy trays that the projectiles come in, also made to hold a loaded cartridge? I’m always scrounging 9mm trays at the range for my 300bo plinking stockpile. Thanks for the cool video man:)
I have been shooting all copper bullets in my rifles for the last five years since California decreed that the future of hunting was to be copper and only copper. The groupings you have here are pretty much the same as what I have found after almost 5000 rounds tried in almost every configuration and multiple powders. Copper bullets seem to have only one sweet spot and it takes a lot of time to find it.
I've liked the 150 grain .308" LeHigh Solid Match bullets. No load data for them though so it has been a lot of guesswork. Pretty much have to work with 175 grain load data and go from there (the bullet is pretty long and goes into the case quite a bit).
Get you a ogive comparator and seat to ogive, not coal. Im embarrassed to say after seven years of reloading and always having flyers and thinking i was just blowing shots it turns out from lot# to lot# there were sometimes big differences in ogive up to .020 and in same lots up to .008 ogive difference. Once i figured this out my flyers were gone. I only seat to ogive now and have some solid super accurate loads. Hope this helps and thanks for the review.
How do they measure on the concentricity tool? Maybe there not centering very well when being seated not sure. Very interesting target for sure only solids I have shot and used successfully hunting are the Barnes TSX in a .270 win. Might be worth trying some Barnes solids. Try them in your Thompson 6half Creed that seems to shoot anything well. Thanks for keeping the good videos coming!!
I'd love to see another 24.1 group. What keeps the bullets concentric in the case with that ridge thing?
Would you consider, have you looked at, Black Hole Weaponry Barrels. I built an 18 inch, mid length gas, 1/8" twist, 3 groove polygonal refiling, 5.56 upper that I just love.
You make outstanding videos....
What non lead 223 bullet performed best in your testing ?
Hey John, I live in CA and am forced to shot lead free bullets for hunting! I have found the hornady GMX to be extremely accurate maybe you could give them a try!
the only solid coppers i’ve been able to have luck with are the barnes tipped tripple shocks. love them. Johnny did you have alot of copper fouling? maybe that ring was over laping the barrel.
For velocity go with H4895. Also with cooper bullets, they normally like more jump.
22.1gr with SD of 5 looks good for a long range test. these type of bullets group better than most at long range. dont let 100 yards fool you. they keep a tighter pattern down range than other bullets. specially when you have a low SD of 5
When you were seating the bullet it looked like the ram did not make contact with the seating die? Thanks so much for the education.
Did the extra bullet diameter leave any copper fouling behind?
I'd try one of those charges where the first shot landed high or low again, but without that magnetospeed that is flopping around in front of the barrel.
I'm curious what the velocity per shot was on that XBR/22.4 string? Wondering if the four were consistent/low SD and just that flyer accounted for the high SD?
good shooting
How do you keep your chrono. From moving on the barrel I got the less expensive one and it wants to move
Did you by chance weigh the projectiles before firing these?
Silver bullets have produced similar results. The extra hardness doesn't allow the bullet to take the rifleing well and they don't stabilize well. Also seems to me the holes were a bit ragged. Need to recover some rounds and examine them.
I agree this was a weird target. The 24.1gr, is more than likely a fluke. If not it sucks that the node is not very wide. Meaning if your powder charge is just a little bit off, you are out of the accuracy node
The are more expensive than you know when ordering. They have promised delivery for almost three months. YET THEY BILL WHEN YOU ORDER.
Does a .223 case fit in the tray that the projectiles come in?
I would like to see how these preform in a bolt action. Thinking the rounds are getting scrapped up by the feed ramp. In theory these should group amazing. ORR. hype. lol
Wish you would have diagnosed one of those fancy bands after the round had been chambered. Wonder if it was damaged causing flight issues.
Yup...I definitely should have checked this. I will in the next video. Thanks for reminding me!
Where is the ballistic gel test for these cutting edge 65 gr. bullets ?
JRB did you clean all the copper out of the barrel before shooting the solids?
How far did you shoot while working up these rounds? I like the technique.
What do you have strapped to the end of your barrel? No wonder you can't seem to get good groups.
I don't know why but 24 grains of varget is known to be kinda the sweet spot for almost ANY weight bullet. I shooting competitive highpower service rifle and you'll see almost everyone using varget or reloader 15 at 24 grains.
Curious, if you were going to build a "fundamentals AR" where the focus was say on accuracy 200-300 yards while working on basic precision fundamentals, would you choose 223, 6.5 grendel, or jump on the 224 valk bandwagon? I haven't seen a ton of super supporting positive reviews (other than superhard fanbois) for Valk, So i'm more torn between 223/Grendel (also waiting for 224 Grendel lol) Focus would also be on reloading/testing
Would you want to go with a 20" or 24" barrel? What barrel manufacturer would you go with, Faxon?
I would go with 223 and I would buy a White Oak Armament barrel in 1:8 twist. That's the exact type of barrel you see me shooting in this video. Mine is an 18", so shorter than you're looking at, but they have lots of longer options. If you want to see what it's capable of, go check out my Mk 262 cloning playlist here: ruclips.net/p/PLTTrjvDib94ly8_5jqnedzK6bhXWzZyVl
The barrel loves the 77gr Sierra Match King and that would be an excellent choice for precision work at 200-300 yards. Actually they're probably overkill...69gr bullets would be great as well.
Barrel length will depend on what type of gun you're looking to build. If you're going to run a suppressor or brake, White Oak has a lot of threaded barrels in 20". The 22" or 24" barrels don't usually come threaded, although they would probably thread one for you if you asked.
I shoot (and have videos for) both 224 Valkyrie and 6.5 Grendel. 224 Valkyrie has been a pain so far, but I love 6.5 Grendel. I wouldn't suggest anyone get into either of those until they've already got a great shooting 223 AR.
The advantages of 223 are too numerous to list. Cheap or free brass and more affordable bullets would be the top two on my list.
The butterfly has given you the Power of Friendship! (Brony reference)
Johnny, was your ammo out in the sun or heat for a while before you started your test?
wholly cow!!! $74 for a box of 50...... that's almost $1.50 per bullet. not on my worst drunk. way outta my price league. great video though! love your channel keep it up!
That .356 group was just a lucky group ! try repeating it !!!
Wondering if your barrel is a 5R and if your ever going to go down that testing rabbit hole. If these bullets have to be segregated for shipping so no damage, doubt they stand a chance in an auto-loader.
do a test on the Barnes tsx or the ttsx bullets, Barnes bullets are also all copper but they look different then the bullet tested on this video. I live in California and here we have to use lead free ammo for all hunting state wide. do that test and all Californian hunters will thank you, I know I will.
I suspect the .226" band on the bullet is causing the bullet to be slightly off to one side in the barrel.
That's an interesting thought. Maybe Johnny should run a loaded round through his concentric gauges. Being a caster, I would run it through a sizing die.
The bullet rotates. It cant be "off to one side".
@@TheMitchbassman absolutely it can. "Yaw happens because a bullet on exiting a weapon may have residual contact with the barrel on one side, thus tending to distort its straight flight. This will temporarily be magnified because the bullet surface will not have been presented symmetrically to the aerodynamic effect of air friction. As a consequence, for a certain distance the bullet will have a vortex or spiralling action known as yaw. After a few metres the spin from the rifling stabilises the yaw until the bullet reaches its target. However yaw again happens when the bullet enters denser tissue."
Hey Johnny, you’ve probably answered this before but what program or app do you use to measure your groups? Thanks in advance!!!
OnTarget is what I use. There's also a free mobile app called Range Buddy that a lot of people use. OnTarget can be found here: ontargetshooting.com/ontarget-pc/
If you have an iphone or an ipad there is one in the app store thats dirt cheap and works well enough
Thanks I appreciate it!!
Sub MOA Pro is what you are looking for.
My Competition Electronics chrono came with Digital Link. Actually, it was the bluetooth attachment that uses that. I downloaded it from the app store for free. I don't know if it's compatible with any other setup but it works great for me. It even adds the temperature and humidity and calculates the power factor.
You should wait 45 sec between shots!
Also don't chamber the round until your ready to shoot. The longer the round is in the chamber it's heating up especially in a gas gun.
I'm seeing it in your testing on the low SD groups there's some vertical dispersion that shouldn't be given the low sd .
And I suspect its reflection of heat !
Just my 2 cents!
Hello Johnny, it's 106 here today!
STAY HYDRATED!
Try some 40g leadfree ballistic tip from nosler. That is a challenge to talk about.
Will we ever get to the point where 1 hole shots are possible?
Looks like it may be extremely finicky on bullet jump.
I’d load that.356 load again and see if it’s a fluke ...the prior group with few less grains and the aft group with few more grains doesn’t confirm it to be a stable combinationwith only 20-30 FPS deviation... playing with seat depth is probably going to show more what that bullet wants( solid coppers are a diff animal)... u want to go faster .. I’d pick a moderate speed load an check for over pressure... if no signs found I’d find the seat depth where it shoots the best then fine tune the powder selection and charge weights for the velocity u want.... using that sweet spot depth..... It maybe a diff approach to most but it’s a different animal ur dealing with... gud luk with it 👍🏼
You should play with seating depths.
Not a lot of room to move. We're at full mag length so longer is out. And if we go deeper the "SealTite Band" will start going below the case mouth, which makes things more complicated! Plus we've only got 50 left so not a lot of rounds to play around with.
Why do you use the CCI 41’s when they are notorious for awful SD’s and inferior groups? I use them for my 55 grain bulk loads but not ever for anything I need serious accuracy out of. Try federal gmm small rifle primers and I’m willing to bet you can get better results across the board in all calibers. As far as the cutting edge bullets, a bunch of us use them in 375 and they perform beautifully.
Your rifle doesn’t seem to like the copper solids of any brand thus far! Hopefully your next powder tests will show improvement
I think you should do more accuracy testing without the suppressor
so are we looking at .223 or .224 because the vid title is confusing as the boxes have .224 label
.223 bullets are actually .224
The cartridge is .223 Remington. The bullet diameter for .223 Remington and 5.56x45mm NATO is .224.
Here's an IV8888 video that talks about the confusion: ruclips.net/video/gjIVpMqHh40/видео.html
It looks to me that you haven't got your jump to the lands sorted. Copper bullets like a jump of around 0.050" - These look like they are seated way too close ...
I really appreciate your effort. So please please please in honor of it take the chrono off the moderator and allow the barrel the best chance of an untampered harmonic.
He has done a test with added weight on the end of his barrel. He refers to it as the lump, it weighs as much as his suppressor with the chronograph attached. He got much better groups with the lump than with a bare muzzle. So, I don't think he's hurting the harmonics at all.
I feel it would be a better test if each load starts at a clean cold barrel. Then at least the cosistancy is there.
The band on these bullets is no different than the pressure ring on any normal boat tail or flat based bullet. The pressure ring is the widest area of the bullet along it's bearing surface. Flat based match bullets normally have the pressure ring right at the base of the bullet (Berger flat base match) while boat tailed bullets have their pressure ring at the base of the bearing surface where it tapers into the boat tail. If you run this pressure ring completely through the sized portion of the case neck you have swaged (enlarged) the neck. Your neck tension is lowered dramatically and the work you did to determine that case neck diameter is wasted. Insure the bullet's pressure point is held by the sized portion of the neck and you will get meaningful, repeatable results.
If I could only get that butterfly to land on my pole to get a couple more inches out of it.
Its funny...
Varget has always shot just like that for me. 24.0 it's fine, more than .2 +/- its crap.
FYI
Barnes has a varget listing for 5.56 pressure, 62gr tsx @ 27.2 gr max.
(Same as RL15)
What's funny is the 5.56 starting load (25.2)
Is hotter than the MAX .223 load.
Nice and crunchy.
When shooting the 62gr. TTSX, it never shot worth a damn, tell I found the 5.56 info.
Even using Barnes .223 load data.
Barnes copper likes FAST
too bad you didn't compare these bullets with say same Lepua and Sierra bullets with same powder loads all on one target
now that would be a useful video :)
Maybe a flat wire spring in that buffer tube? I just put a tubbs in my ar10 and it eliminated that annoying suppressed twang in my teeth.
I've been meaning to try one of those. I have a JP Silent Captured Spring but haven't been using it lately since I've mainly been using rifle length tubes.
Ahhh, yes i looked at those as well. But the price killed it. The flat wire spring can be shortened or used in either length stock, so i went with it instead. Running it in a rifle length stock it ran great right out of the box. So I didn't shorten it. Ejection was a little weak, but that just means I don't have to get the dogs out to find my brass.
Johnny's Reloading Bench that JP is the stuff.
You lose your plastic plug (for lack of a better term) that ships with the JP SCS?
Hey John, I know you mentioned that you live in Kentucky now but were from West Virginia originally. I’m from around the Logan area. I was wondering if you wanted to come shoot some long range with me? I have a range in the northern part of the state out to 1,000 yards. If you ever wanna spend a day shooting some steel just message me and maybe you can make a long distance shooting video for the channel or something if you wanted lol
I can not understand why everyone worries about velocity? If you get dime size groups at 100 yds. at 2600 fps which may group less than 2 inches at 400 yds compared to 3,000 fps and groups 1.25' at 100 yds. and groups 10 inches plus at 400 yds. what are you gaining if you can not hit your target? I have been target shooting in competition for more than 30 years. I have a 6mm Norma BR. shooting 105 gr. Berger VLDs that consistently groups 5 shots less then 2 inches at 400 yards and my best 5 shot group at 1,000 yds. was 3.25 inches with wind. Consistent group size is the most important thing for me. Look here at post #33. forum.gon.com/threads/sons-new-ar-15.966802/page-2#post-12284499
At that price does it really matter how well it shoots, I know a Lamborghini can go fast and handles well but there is no point to renting one for a few hours when I can't afford to own one I'd rather put that money toward something I can actually afford to own and use.
2021 here, where the heck are you getting bullets for 39$ for 50?
taking your focus off the reticle will cause that vertical nonsense. as will trigger pull and breathing. that's why you run with the numbers, they don't lie.
My accubonds are 35$ for 50.. crazy enough for me
H4895 and AR Comp better choices IMHO
Thath juth bad I gueth.. bahahaha love it
Can you tell me where you buy your reloading supplies
Brownells, MidwayUSA, Amazon, Natchez Shooters Supplies, and MidSouth Shooters Supply are the top 5 places I look. I've placed many orders with all of them and received good service. There are also a lot of smaller retailers.
If you'd like to help my channel, I have affiliate links to Brownells, Amazon, and Natchez. Same price for you and they kick me a referral fee when you buy stuff. Just click on my link to get you there and shop like normal. Super easy. You can find those links here: www.reddit.com/r/JRB/comments/8w4blq/my_affiliate_links/
excellent thanks
Copper fouling? You did mention it was pretty soft...thats my swag
Have you retired from RUclips?