My 18 inch barrel with different primers and brass shot 21.2 gr XBR 230fps slower. Thanks for the videos. I just found you this evening. Very nice work.
JRB - I have 8 pounds of 8208 that I got for the 308 Win. But thanks to your work, I should give it a try for thje 223...Happy New Year to ya, and good job with this video...FC Steve
Great video as usual. Your POI shift with the 8208 likely has something to do with jumping a whole 90 fps from one load to the next. Hope you bring this one back sooner rather than later.
JRB excellent shooting, 1/2 MOA groups at 200 is good stuff! Nicely done! Would love to see another run with this bullet at another charge weight to see if you can tighten the SD’s as the charge weight you picked with AR Comp seems to be the only one from your last video that had high a SD. Maybe run AR comp from 20.8-21.8 in .2 grain increments. Also with the velocity’s being up, might be worth running this test agin in some Lake city brass, Although the Star-line seems to be doing a good job, just curious if the lower case capacity of the star line is running them that much hotter. I would bet the brass contributes a little, but this bullet just runs a little faster per charge weight than the 77 SMK. Either way it’s shooting good though. 8208 XBR did a great job, maybe experimenting with other primers with that powder could possibly bring down the SD’s some. Primers in my experience are a hit or miss, with some powders they seem to make very little difference like your Loads with AR comp it didn’t really effect velocity, but for me with 8208 XBR running the CCI 41 shoots velocity up big time over other primers. It’s just hit or miss with certain powders. Also would love to see this bullet with Varget and N140, as for me those powders also shot this bullet well. The Berger 73 grain match Target will also impress you, for me that bullet shoots crazy good. Would be worth picking some of them up also. Great Vid, thanks again.
Dude the Rem 7.5 group is awesome. That's the primer my old man always shot in 6ppc and 22ppc benchrest. Leave it to those guys to find the best stuff. I've seen the same stuff with the 450's - Love them in my 6.5 but never got anything decent with them in 223
Another Great video. You got to be doing something right.. You got Federal AR primers and in your other videos you got H4350. You must have a incredible hook up. Lol. I own my own Shop and haven’t seen those in 2 years. Anyway love this series... Keep up the good work.
I have been following your series on the mk262 clone. I would recommend trying wolf primers. In my loads they have given very good consistency. I would also recommend using a tapercrimp die versus the Lee. I use a taper crimp on all loads in a ar15. On a semi auto the bullet seating depth can get bumped during cyclic action. Good series.
I switched my primers to AR Match recently and I feel better about the decision being that in your original tests along with moparmadman they continue to give awesome low standard deviations which is what I’m after for my long range shots
Happy new year! Looking forward to more awesome videos. Let's get into that tenth of an inch group shall we. Bruno Shooters Supply has Bergers on sale plus free shipping right now.
those Bergers are my second best down my 20" 223 Bartlein barrel ; for some strange reason Sierra 77gr are my best. difference is .450 MOA Sierra and .500 Berger OTM this after 150 shots each bullet @ 200 yds. others tried Berger 77gr. VLD . Lepua 77gr. and Hornady 75gr. BTHP.
Great video. The best reloading channel hands down. Any chance on a poor mans “MK262” work-up with the Hornady 75gr BTHP? Their price point makes them interesting. Keep up the fantastic work.
I'll pick up another box to play with. I shot some in my White Oak Armament barrel break in video, and I thought I shot some more in another video but I can't remember which one. They shoot awesome, so they definitely deserve some videos of their own!
Now when I test, i always make sure the rounds I haven't tested yet are kept in the shade. I noticed when my loaded magazines are exposed to the sun I get irregularities even though all the components and ambient temp are the same.
Sure neck tension and crimp can affect SD, but IMO I don’t think that is the problem here. Did you see his last video? 4 of the 5 groups had SD’s in the 5’s and 6’s and there was no crimp. Crimping a non-cannelure bullet is a risky thing. I have experimented with even light crimp on SMK bullets as well as other match bullets and even a very light crimp can distort the bullet and put a ring in it. Try crimping a few dummy rounds and then pull the bullets, it doesn’t take much at all to wreck an expensive set of bullets. When it comes to expensive match bullets such as the Bergers with out a Cannelure, I think your much better off with no crimp in my opinion. Of course you need proper neck tension.
The temperature seemed to be significantly colder on the latest test given JRB's comments about losing feeling in his fingers and needing gloves. I wouldn't be surprised since the northern half of the U.S. is currently experiencing a deep freeze. If it was significantly colder, we know that copper alloys become stronger and more ductile as temperature goes down. We also know what hard brass does to neck tension and SDs. It may even be that he has too much neck tension. That would explain the higher than expected pressure/velocity too. Maybe time to anneal? Just offering ideas...
Have you considered another set of bullet comparators so that you can put both sets on your caliper and measure bearing surface of your bullets and compare between the Berger, Sierra and Nosler 77gr bullets? That may be the answer to the velocity differences.
Can you do some videos showing how to use Quickload? When you use it, and when you don't? And, any competitors. I'm a patron, so maybe you can take a poll on Patreon to see if anyone else is interested.
Aaron Anderson Here's mentioned it multiple times. In his videos on loading +P Gold Dot 9mm, he used Quickload to choose his powders and charges. I bought Quickload because of his videos, but it's an old, hard to use program.
You're right. I generally snooze through those because I dont care much for pistol loads. I have QL and it would definitely be interesting to see how accurate it is for all of different loads J is doing.
I am planning to do a Quickload review in the Mk262 series, to see how our results match up with what QL predicted. The results really weren't good. They got us in the ballpark and helped a lot with powder selection, but it wasn't nearly as precise as I'd hoped. I will need to learn a lot more about the program before I can do a tutorial. If I did one now, with my current level of knowledge, all of the QuickLoad fans and experts would burn me at the stake.
Velocity difference could be partially down to differences in bearing area between these and the sierras. Small differences can have appreciable effects on mv. I haven't tried these but have used tmk77s but at 2.26 was comptessing the load too much so needed to seat them out more. Seated at 2.305 and using 24 grains of rs50 I was getting 2770fps with them and .35moa.
ADI 8208 ( imr 8208 ) is better suited to the 55 grn loads in .223. ADI 2208 ( Varget ) is a better powder for 75-90 grn pills in .223. Whilst I have two fantastic loads for my bolt gun between the two powders varget gave me 400fps more in velocity over the 8208 loads for the same components and OAL
Are you going to do any more load development with the 77grain Berger’s? I’m interested to see more load development and other powders and such. I have been tinkering with these and having trouble finding a load with decent velocities. 22.1 Gr of H4895 loaded to 2.260 in federal brass with cci 41’s out of an 18” Wilson Combat 1:8 twist match barrel I’m only getting 2488 FPS.
It's gotta be weather related... You mentioned 20°F?... Shoot this again in moderate temps and you'll most likely see a big change for the better. Just curious, what part of what state are you shooting in?
I have only been reloading a couple of months. I am trying to tighten groups on .223 bolt action rifles. A Savage 12 FTR 30" barrel and a Howa 1500 24" heavy barrel. Your data here is with an AR. Are your findings on powders, primers, and bullets going to help me. Most of the research on RUclips seems to be for AR's for .223 accuracy research.
I got good accuracy with AR data. My load is 25.5 grains of H335 with a 55 grain Sierra HPBT shot out of a Savage 110 26 inch bull barrel. Just couldn't miss the prairie dog sticker target at 200 yards once zeroed and 68 prairie dogs did not like that rifle or load when I was last out in the pan handle of Oklahoma with my grandpa and little brother. My grandpa and little bro used 55 grain Varmagedon .224 bullets with a pretty heavy charge of CFE223 but i don't remember what load my grandfather uses but its definitely a tenth or two tenths of grain under max in Nosler load data for 223 remington.
Can someone explain what and why "Standard Deviation" is to me? Is it really that important? I'm interested in groups...but Johnny is ranting over his standard deviation. So...I have to ask the question. =p
What software do you use to analyze your targets? Thanks to you I just started reloading and loaded my first 40 bullets using 68 gr Hornady BTHP with Hodgden CEF-223.
ontargetshooting.com/ There are some other programs out there that do similar stuff. Congrats on the first reloads! Excellent powder and bullet choice! Don't blow your face off.
Of subject but!! Plz help. I’m reloading .40 s&w. 165 grn Everglades copper plated bullets. Using accuret #7 8 grians. Cci small pistol primers. And have worked up to a heavy crimp. And I still am having some unburnt powder in my pistol. And advice.
Accurate #7 is a slow burning powder for .40 S&W. That can mean excellent velocities, but unburned powder can be a problem. Additional crimp probably won't help much. The next time you choose a powder, choose something a little faster on the burn rate chart. Good luck.
zoggy2 it's not powder residue so much as graphite that the powder is coated with. The residue actually helps powder to not stick or cling to the plastic.
Aaron Anderson I actually use an aerosol graphite spray to coat my funnels and even my weigh pans as well as the internals of my powder dispensers. Works awesome on any static issues I used to have.
Johnny, can you send me the page from the berger manual you used for these loads? I have some 77 otm and 80 vld. I want to compare them to the sierras out of my Mk 12 but cant justify purchasing the entire berger manual. Thanks
This embraces the scientific method as well as anything you find on RUclips.
My 18 inch barrel with different primers and brass shot 21.2 gr XBR 230fps slower. Thanks for the videos. I just found you this evening. Very nice work.
These Berger bullets are very impressive.
Hey man, hope all is well. Your videos still show up in my feeds so I’m still waiting for your return. I learned a lot from watching.
JRB - I have 8 pounds of 8208 that I got for the 308 Win. But thanks to your work, I should give it a try for thje 223...Happy New Year to ya, and good job with this video...FC Steve
8208 is like Varget. Works in all sorts of calibers.
Great video as usual. Your POI shift with the 8208 likely has something to do with jumping a whole 90 fps from one load to the next. Hope you bring this one back sooner rather than later.
JRB excellent shooting, 1/2 MOA groups at 200 is good stuff! Nicely done!
Would love to see another run with this bullet at another charge weight to see if you can tighten the SD’s as the charge weight you picked with AR Comp seems to be the only one from your last video that had high a SD. Maybe run AR comp from 20.8-21.8 in .2 grain increments.
Also with the velocity’s being up, might be worth running this test agin in some Lake city brass, Although the Star-line seems to be doing a good job, just curious if the lower case capacity of the star line is running them that much hotter. I would bet the brass contributes a little, but this bullet just runs a little faster per charge weight than the 77 SMK. Either way it’s shooting good though.
8208 XBR did a great job, maybe experimenting with other primers with that powder could possibly bring down the SD’s some. Primers in my experience are a hit or miss, with some powders they seem to make very little difference like your Loads with AR comp it didn’t really effect velocity, but for me with 8208 XBR running the CCI 41 shoots velocity up big time over other primers. It’s just hit or miss with certain powders. Also would love to see this bullet with Varget and N140, as for me those powders also shot this bullet well.
The Berger 73 grain match Target will also impress you, for me that bullet shoots crazy good. Would be worth picking some of them up also.
Great Vid, thanks again.
Dude the Rem 7.5 group is awesome. That's the primer my old man always shot in 6ppc and 22ppc benchrest. Leave it to those guys to find the best stuff. I've seen the same stuff with the 450's - Love them in my 6.5 but never got anything decent with them in 223
Another Great video. You got to be doing something right.. You got Federal AR primers and in your other videos you got H4350. You must have a incredible hook up. Lol. I own my own Shop and haven’t seen those in 2 years. Anyway love this series... Keep up the good work.
Great vids! Been shooting my whole life and loading too. Great content!
Please bring back first release for hardcore fans !
I have been following your series on the mk262 clone. I would recommend trying wolf primers. In my loads they have given very good consistency. I would also recommend using a tapercrimp die versus the Lee. I use a taper crimp on all loads in a ar15. On a semi auto the bullet seating depth can get bumped during cyclic action. Good series.
I am really liking the berger stuff. amazing bullets
I switched my primers to AR Match recently and I feel better about the decision being that in your original tests along with moparmadman they continue to give awesome low standard deviations which is what I’m after for my long range shots
I love when I'm searching google for a particular bullet, find your video, and hear my name mentioned hahaha small world.
Enjoyed the Video! The starline brass seems to be working well
That AR Comp still shot really well.
Happy new year! Looking forward to more awesome videos. Let's get into that tenth of an inch group shall we. Bruno Shooters Supply has Bergers on sale plus free shipping right now.
those Bergers are my second best down my 20" 223 Bartlein barrel ; for some strange reason Sierra 77gr are my best.
difference is .450 MOA Sierra and .500 Berger OTM this after 150 shots each bullet @ 200 yds.
others tried Berger 77gr. VLD . Lepua 77gr. and Hornady 75gr. BTHP.
I would love to see the groups when the rifle is rested on a sandbag.
Great video. The best reloading channel hands down.
Any chance on a poor mans “MK262” work-up with the Hornady 75gr BTHP? Their price point makes them interesting.
Keep up the fantastic work.
Pretty sure he tested those at some point.
I'll pick up another box to play with. I shot some in my White Oak Armament barrel break in video, and I thought I shot some more in another video but I can't remember which one. They shoot awesome, so they definitely deserve some videos of their own!
Now when I test, i always make sure the rounds I haven't tested yet are kept in the shade. I noticed when my loaded magazines are exposed to the sun I get irregularities even though all the components and ambient temp are the same.
SD problem due to not enough neck tension and/or lack of crimp? Check for trend in each group MV from shot 1 to 5.
Sure neck tension and crimp can affect SD, but IMO I don’t think that is the problem here. Did you see his last video? 4 of the 5 groups had SD’s in the 5’s and 6’s and there was no crimp.
Crimping a non-cannelure bullet is a risky thing. I have experimented with even light crimp on SMK bullets as well as other match bullets and even a very light crimp can distort the bullet and put a ring in it. Try crimping a few dummy rounds and then pull the bullets, it doesn’t take much at all to wreck an expensive set of bullets. When it comes to expensive match bullets such as the Bergers with out a Cannelure, I think your much better off with no crimp in my opinion. Of course you need proper neck tension.
The temperature seemed to be significantly colder on the latest test given JRB's comments about losing feeling in his fingers and needing gloves. I wouldn't be surprised since the northern half of the U.S. is currently experiencing a deep freeze. If it was significantly colder, we know that copper alloys become stronger and more ductile as temperature goes down. We also know what hard brass does to neck tension and SDs. It may even be that he has too much neck tension. That would explain the higher than expected pressure/velocity too. Maybe time to anneal? Just offering ideas...
That thought crossed my mind too, auto-loading with no crimp could possibly be causing some COL change under recoil. Another variable.
Richard Craver Yup. COAL could also change with the round being pushed up the ramp and slammed into the chamber.
Try this same test with the Hornady 75 BTHP or the 73 ELD-M.
69 gr TMK's on the menu soon?
Have you considered another set of bullet comparators so that you can put both sets on your caliper and measure bearing surface of your bullets and compare between the Berger, Sierra and Nosler 77gr bullets? That may be the answer to the velocity differences.
Can you do some videos showing how to use Quickload? When you use it, and when you don't? And, any competitors. I'm a patron, so maybe you can take a poll on Patreon to see if anyone else is interested.
I'm not sure he's ever mentioned it. He always talks about various manuals.
Aaron Anderson Here's mentioned it multiple times. In his videos on loading +P Gold Dot 9mm, he used Quickload to choose his powders and charges.
I bought Quickload because of his videos, but it's an old, hard to use program.
You're right. I generally snooze through those because I dont care much for pistol loads. I have QL and it would definitely be interesting to see how accurate it is for all of different loads J is doing.
I am planning to do a Quickload review in the Mk262 series, to see how our results match up with what QL predicted. The results really weren't good. They got us in the ballpark and helped a lot with powder selection, but it wasn't nearly as precise as I'd hoped.
I will need to learn a lot more about the program before I can do a tutorial. If I did one now, with my current level of knowledge, all of the QuickLoad fans and experts would burn me at the stake.
Johnny's Reloading Bench Thank you!
I'm enjoying the 450 in my 6.5 too but it makes me wonder if the 400 would do just as well. Maybe a good 6.5 video once you find a base load you like.
Velocity difference could be partially down to differences in bearing area between these and the sierras. Small differences can have appreciable effects on mv.
I haven't tried these but have used tmk77s but at 2.26 was comptessing the load too much so needed to seat them out more. Seated at 2.305 and using 24 grains of rs50 I was getting 2770fps with them and .35moa.
Experienced the same lower velocity results with fed 215m primers vs CCI BR-2s in a 6mm creedmoor
ADI 8208 ( imr 8208 ) is better suited to the 55 grn loads in .223. ADI 2208 ( Varget ) is a better powder for 75-90 grn pills in .223.
Whilst I have two fantastic loads for my bolt gun between the two powders varget gave me 400fps more in velocity over the 8208 loads for the same components and OAL
Is it temp related Johnny? I’m up here in Canada shooting in cold weather all the time and my SD’s make those look good...
Similar experience here even when using "temperature insensitive" powders like Varget and H4350.
Hey JRB what happened to the MI Garand did you get it fixed?
23.8 with 77 SMK
IMR 8208
CCI 41
LC brass
2750 FPS
MK 12 Mod 0
Are you going to do any more load development with the 77grain Berger’s? I’m interested to see more load development and other powders and such. I have been tinkering with these and having trouble finding a load with decent velocities. 22.1 Gr of H4895 loaded to 2.260 in federal brass with cci 41’s out of an 18” Wilson Combat 1:8 twist match barrel I’m only getting 2488 FPS.
Charge weights with xbr too low to perform. A run up to 23.8 would yield better results. Nato chamber pressure a consideration.
It's gotta be weather related... You mentioned 20°F?... Shoot this again in moderate temps and you'll most likely see a big change for the better. Just curious, what part of what state are you shooting in?
Johnny ever thought about doing 7.62x39 ar15 rifle reloading or no?
is that a lancer5 mag I see? those are the only mags I trust to use anymore. good choice.
I have only been reloading a couple of months. I am trying to tighten groups on .223 bolt action rifles. A Savage 12 FTR 30" barrel and a Howa 1500 24" heavy barrel. Your data here is with an AR. Are your findings on powders, primers, and bullets going to help me. Most of the research on RUclips seems to be for AR's for .223 accuracy research.
I got good accuracy with AR data. My load is 25.5 grains of H335 with a 55 grain Sierra HPBT shot out of a Savage 110 26 inch bull barrel. Just couldn't miss the prairie dog sticker target at 200 yards once zeroed and 68 prairie dogs did not like that rifle or load when I was last out in the pan handle of Oklahoma with my grandpa and little brother. My grandpa and little bro used 55 grain Varmagedon .224 bullets with a pretty heavy charge of CFE223 but i don't remember what load my grandfather uses but its definitely a tenth or two tenths of grain under max in Nosler load data for 223 remington.
Do you use certain software for your MOA group markups? Or is it just calipers and Photoshop?
Can someone explain what and why "Standard Deviation" is to me? Is it really that important? I'm interested in groups...but Johnny is ranting over his standard deviation. So...I have to ask the question. =p
Have you tried these with other powders like CFE223,H335,H4895?
What software do you use to analyze your targets? Thanks to you I just started reloading and loaded my first 40 bullets using 68 gr Hornady BTHP with Hodgden CEF-223.
ontargetshooting.com/ There are some other programs out there that do similar stuff.
Congrats on the first reloads! Excellent powder and bullet choice! Don't blow your face off.
Johnny's Reloading Bench Thanks Johnny, I’ll do my absolute best to keep my face in tact. I’ve started all my loads pretty light.
What is your expected shooting range....under 300 your SD matters not much..
It's about time lol
Of subject but!! Plz help. I’m reloading .40 s&w. 165 grn Everglades copper plated bullets. Using accuret #7 8 grians. Cci small pistol primers. And have worked up to a heavy crimp. And I still am having some unburnt powder in my pistol. And advice.
Accurate #7 is a slow burning powder for .40 S&W. That can mean excellent velocities, but unburned powder can be a problem. Additional crimp probably won't help much. The next time you choose a powder, choose something a little faster on the burn rate chart. Good luck.
The last 5 minutes
How would you go about cleaning the powder residue off the scoops and powder funnels?
Why bother?
zoggy2 it's not powder residue so much as graphite that the powder is coated with. The residue actually helps powder to not stick or cling to the plastic.
Yep. My best funnels are coated in graphite. Besides, graphite is very difficult to find a solvent for.
Aaron Anderson I actually use an aerosol graphite spray to coat my funnels and even my weigh pans as well as the internals of my powder dispensers. Works awesome on any static issues I used to have.
Good idea!
Have you tried either one of these powders in 308 with like 150 or 165???
8208 is great in 308 win
With what bullet weight are you using
168 but it should be fine with most common weights should be fine
Johnny, can you send me the page from the berger manual you used for these loads? I have some 77 otm and 80 vld. I want to compare them to the sierras out of my Mk 12 but cant justify purchasing the entire berger manual. Thanks