This Gran Turismo 7 Physics Flaw Will Make You Faster
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- Опубликовано: 6 апр 2022
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It's not like actual sims like ACC have physics flaws in them as well.
Like, idk, having to run extremely negative toe to be faster?
That would be quite silly 🙃
That's because they are not actually sims. By that I mean they all are trying to emulate cars rather than simulate them. While simulation is a component, there are a lot of hacks over riding the simulation. Outside of Beam ng that is.
It reminds me of when Blender 3d added a proper light transform. Before that everything we did to make lighting look right screwed something else up.
I remember Forza had a downforce model that always applied a static downforce, and that was as if you were doing top speed. So the fastest drag race car was an RB swapped 70's skyline with wings on max.
I assume this was a very old Forza Motorsport game
@@Spherz Yeah, Forza 3 😂 But that was the last one I actively played since 4 and 5 felt the same with graphics updates.
@@Spherz Ye.... We wish... Tune model on FM7 is still the same as FM3. So the fastest tunes are with Min rear Aero, Max front aero, Max Rebounds, Min Bumps, Less than -1.5 camber and just abuse the tcs.
@@Artiick not really it’s actually with insane horsepower and AWD drivetrain
@@Spherz nah man. Min-Max tuning makes cars faster regardless on forza. It goes all the way to D, and all the way up to X. TCS boost doesn't work on slow cars, thankfully.
Props for giving 'The Doughtinator' a shout out, Chris really knows his stuff and absolutely loves the game and it's community.
Like deployed 👍
😎🎙🏎✅
Those "artificial crackles" you hear is the "anti-lag" which adds fuel and spark after the turbos in the exhaust. It is also called "after-fire" since it is after the combustion chamber. Even if there is no spark or fuel added. On the camber, I agree with you on the camber, it works with less camber in this game than GT Sport which went the opposite direction and real life.
Patch 1.11 is after changing the physics again. The cars are much more controllable so the how to stop spinning video needs an update / follow up.
I drove for a few hours this morning and most of the the when the car spins it's very recoverable , but they made some kerbs in nordschliefe weapons of mass spinoff
They didn't mention that in the patch notes :/
It is realistic that the nordschleife does that tbh
@@plav032 there's a few things added that the patch notes don't mention. There's a few new audio options added that's not in the patch notes and a few new cars added that's not in the patch notes.
Did you test this on wheel?
@@Steve30x new cars? No bro those cars are already in the game (assuming you are talking about used cars and legendary dealership). They change every few days so they arent new cars. Just not available in brand central.
These tuning videos are super helpful.
Always as well to play around with setups that are different to real life in a game because you never know what you might find. Great video thanks. ✌️😎
This along with your other video helped out my GTR, would be nice to see a guide on transmission tuning. I just slapped a 5.0 final drive then auto adjusted for top speed
amazing video bro, keep rockin!!!!
Maybe PD haven't factored in "Wheel Flex" when cornering and the numbers are a static absolute.
11:22 but the problem is that tuning always made sense on GT aside glitches, even on older titles like GT3 (i don't know about the first two) you would get the expected reaction from the car to most tunes, except for tyre wear, where a higher camber value makes them last less even though you're using a larger patch of the tyres through the corners.
Polyphony admitted that they "guess" the tire physics... LOL 😂
Yeah, that's not true at all. I remember we had a Cappuccino Cup series in GT5 and for laughs we had a race at Indy and with zero downforce I was getting smoked by 1.5 seconds and couldn't keep up even in the draft. So I went back and watched the replay and the other guys had the ride height maxed at front and bottomed out at the back. Makes no sense at all from a physics standpoint but it worked at Indy and other tracks as well. Tuning in GT has always been full of glitches and hacks.
Noooo you wouldn't. Prior to GT6 it didn't even have a proper tire model lol. Tire pressure wasn't even a thing.
@@johnnypenso9574 to be fair, almost all simulations use hacks to emulate cars. As opposed to a game like beamng that doesn't care what the end result is, as long as its modeling the data, ie a bottom up approach.
I think Forza relied on (somewhat) more of a bottom up approach. It's just not always the best way to make cars realistic.
Systemic approaches are either consistently great or consistently bad.
@@johnnypenso9574 Forza Horizon has been just like this for years now. Max front height and slammed rear can add as much as 10-15mph to your top speed in that game depending on the car. It doesn't make sense, but that's just what happens in that game for some reason. Can't say for Motorsport though, I haven't played enough of any Motorsport title to know. But Horizon definitely.
Big up Doughtinator!!! Guy deserves more subs!!!
Do you think they'll give 5% more rear end grip to every group car in the update? The physics seem unrealistically flawed when comparing to real life footage.
@Gustav yep they gave us just that. The down side is that nobody drives MR cars as the physics model just doesn't like them.
Here is how I tried to make sense of it. The closer most suspensions get to bottoming out, the more they add negative camber. I don't know what reference they use to measure camber IRL, but maybe the game measures it relative to the suspension. Your suspension is already super slammed, maybe the net effect of -3 degrees of camber was too much. The tuned RX7 from AE Amemiya does come with -3 ish degrees of camber front and rear. Maybe try testing on that car and see if removing camber trick still works?
The performance points went up so the game is telling you the car is faster, not really a glitch. you should test the tire wear as well.
Oh, so they are aware that the game does not make sense? Brilliant
Right, so an intended deviation from reality.
Confusion
@@Ermz probably wasn't intended. It's just the game calculations for stuff actually realises it's faster.
I'm thinking the game's code is assuming the tire is way harder or with more tire pressure that it actually has.
Great video, thanks for the help 👍
You still have to take into account that tweaking the camber is a compensation of the angle you get from body roll and tyre deformation.
Racing hards would have racing tyre sidewalls and a lower-ish kind of grip.
I wonder if you'd get similar results with soft compounds (sports or racing) or if you'd have to re-up your camber values a notch
Same results on soft.
It's actually comical that you think the tuning physics in Gran Turismo goes to that level of detail. This is simcade at best not a real simulator.
@@johnnypenso9574 An accessable/simplified simulator. With slightly odd physics. Chances are updates would fix it and we have yet to see the new Ai.
If you turned off damage, wind, tyre wear and many parameters in Assetto Corsa it doesn't make it a simcade at worst would it?
@@Qimchiy they are video games take it easy champ
@@rickymorcus8962 got it bud. Got it
The game probably does not recognize the cars roll correctly so having less camber would mean more of the inner tire will still contact the ground
maybe the caster was very high? ...thus gaining a lot of camber with more steering input. In ACC for ex. i always run max caster with around 2 degrees of camber and im always faster then with the default setup. Also, i imagine the suspension is a lot softer and different in design than something like a gt3 car, so it might gain more camber as it compresses.
Thanks for the mention 👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks for the insight. I thought the lateral G read-outs were bugged so I never would've tried dropping the camber that low!
@@Ermz for once the data is correct!
Let’s just not talk about lift off oversteer though 🤣🤣
Great videos!
LSD is very important in combination with camber and anti rolls...pp points for me only matter if I'm building the car for speed only but if I want a car that actually race then look out for the LSD and tweek one by one the camber
11:18 This is exactly how I approach Sim-Racers nowadays. The less I expect tuning and corner balancing to work as it does in real life, the more I enjoyed the game for just what it is.
You should try in on Lake Maggiore instead as it has lots of mix terrain with Chamber and non Chamber corner and with higher speed corner it also has heavy braking point with high G.
The performance difference makes sense in regards to braking/acceleration in neutralising the camber as it is a bigger contact patch.
The increased downforce helps turn in a bit but fuck knows what the mid-corner speeds are doing 😂😂 i'm hoping the time is just made up in the braking and not cornering speed.
Have you done a sidr by side comparison of corner speeds?
Thank you for this
I learn this in prolong, yeah it don't make sense but the happiness of knowing you will be better and faster than before.
This camber trick isn't really new to gt7. The same thing applied in gts. It just went mainly un noticed because tuning was rarely ever required. 1.2 - 1.4 on the front, and 1.8 - 2.2 on the rear were the sweet spots for just about any car in gts. Minus a few rare occasions were running no camber in the rear was better. Notably the BMW's
It would make sense that you would gain time on that track because it's all about the braking most of the turns are short except the final turn. I would be interested to see the same test on a track that has more longer sweepers and turns that keep you lateraly loaded for longer periods to see if the results are different because the camber load would be completely different.
Yes, but the thing is that he also got some handling out of it, wich makes no sense, and since the tyres contact less the road on corners the car should slide easyer too.
The results are identical across every track I've tested.
@@Ermz Pls test this on some kind of circle track.
I think it might be a bit exaggerated with the camber, but all in all for me it seems pretty legit, as this track has mostly slow corners and heavy braking and acceleration zones were you benefit more from the lower negative camber than you lose especially if you make other setup changes to compensate that. It would be interesting to see if you are still faster on a track with more fast corners and less heavy braking zones, because for me it seems that you wouldn't, but maybe I'm wrong! Also that you say it is still a game which I kind of agree, I want to remember that ACC has a bug with the toe and camber for quite some time were you are fastest in some cars if you run both on maximum negative and you wouldn't call it a game therefore
I'd love to see some super GT type content
This matches up with some other youtube with GT7 strat and tunes as they tend to use lower camber values too
Thanks a looottt !!! I try to fix my 205 turbo but it's very complicate. Will you make a video on it? The same to better understand a comment on a road rally car going? Because the settings are very complicated.
Thanks
Help me out please, a load cell makes the brake pedal work harder? Or feel stronger? I moved the wires in my foot pedals so my brake was the clutch, and has less resistance then my accelerator. Should I move the whole pedal set-up to get more resistance for better laps? Thanks in advance
All cars respond differently to static camber. Many race cars have such well defined camber curves through the wheel motion they run basically no static camber at all…
Under a trail braking scenario when the vehicle weight shifts ideally to the front tires, providing your tire pressure is on point, your contact patch should go into a squat condition, causing enhanced grip, any thoughts?
Unless you overload the fronts and wash out from understeer, or unload the rear wheels and swing the rear end out.
@@calebnation6155 Thank you, that's a definite possibility
Remember doing this on the first one, always worked.
Having less negative camber will give the car more traction wich will make it faster on the straights.
Also camber depends on the track.
And there is alot more things that add up then just camber but at the end of the day gt7 is not the most realistic game in terms of physics but its good to know that in gt7 the cars like less camber
Mate. You’ve jumped the shark on this one.
funny, its exactly the same in forza (at least horizon i havent played motorsport). simple meta tuning in that game involves setting front and rear camber to -0.5, front toe in around 0.1 to 0.3 mostly depending on drivetrain, and caster maxed out. I remember gt5 and gt6 had the same issue forza does now where the diff is basically best maxed out on accel and i would hope gt sport and gt7 fixed it but i play on pc and cant really play them to tell.
caster maxed out... thats why. more caster gives you more dynamic camber so pulling static camber back makes sense...
“Less camber than I run on my road CARS” humble brag I like it 😏
As a former owner of this beautif car, this is great to see however he RS in game performs nothing like irl, especially the stock one you have. The AWD cause the car to turn like an absolute truck and after 4-5 laps of brands hatch irl, the AWD (albeit on a 30celcius day) ended up overheating and becomes “unavailable” essentially turning it into a FWD. ultimately this is an RDU issues and synonymous with this car on a track. IRL aside, it’s great to race it in endurance without it failing 😂 love the rasp!
I always did tune my cars to the game i was playing not real life GT game's one of the best e.g ;) but can you try this again with a proper race car and see if it's still the same i don't think it will be ?
Have you compared that you are running with really low-profile tires? Race cars have higher profile. If I do remember correctly the handling tire models like Pajecka do not take account the side wall flex of the tire. I am assuming the used tire model is magic tire based on CPU demands. The most realistic tire model which I have tested did use one Linux special workstation for one wheel and one tire test for that tire model cost over 20 k€
GT has historically got camber very wrong. It was weird in GT4, GT5:P wanted -1.xx degrees in most cases, and either 5 or 6 or maybe both just had it completely broken to where having any value that wasn't 0 simply gave your car less grip.
In 3 it worked well imo.
Nice pfp
Honestly GT3 and gt4 were probably like the only one that got close to a realistic SIM, but atleast the others had super fun driving.
@Kill Bill yeah they perfectly nailed the feeling of hoe someone who doesn't know what a car is thinks it works lol.
Tuning does help, but it's clear they're Messing something up lol.
@@tilburg8683 that's too funny if you believe that. Up until 6 they were completely garbage. Objectively speaking, they didn't even have a tire model.
That focus sounds like a popcorn machine
That track is a tighter track with lower average speeds. Therefore you never really go fast enough to benefit from that high of a camber. I have a low speed and a high speed camber setting sheet for each of thr cars i frequently drive
Maybe you could point out some more ffb flaws, would be great if poliphony payed attention
Its not only in GT7, its since the series started like that. I barelly run more than 2.1 in the front and 1.1 in the rear. Maybe just for the looks. hahaha
i think they fixed it today with the patch. i drove some rear wheel drive like the new brz the silvia spec r and the mr2 and was a joy to drive them and push them. also camber i think works as it should now not 100% sure tried on some cars and got some performance out of it
I suspect that computer modeling how the tires contact in conjunction with all the other variables must be a nightmare.
I suspect we're one or two game title generations away from getting that right.
So for now, less camber means more traction with little to no downside?
As far as I play to GT7, I can tell you it depend a lot about wich car you choose. Camber on a Lambo vs a ford focus is very different... don't expect 3.5 degree on small tires from a ford focus would be good ! MR, AWD, FR, FF and RR got all differents needed tune. Dom't tune a hot hatch like a AWD supercar...
Higher G's don't always mean better turning in this game. My Fugu Z now has like 0,07g less than i had on a different tune yet i lap Trail mountain seconds quicker. 4,3 front and 2,2 dagrees of rear camber. Still gonna give this a try tho.
A diferencia de muchos ignorantes, o niños desesperados por el fallo, debo decir que, el hecho que PS5 haya soportado sólo 4 minutos antes del aviso de pánico de temperatura, habla de una más que excelentísima refrigeración de esta consola. Imaginen que estamos jugando horas y horas a juegos ultra pesados. (no quiero decir que APR no lo sea) y sin que apenas suenen los ventiladores. Eso deja en claro que la consola hace un trabajo excelente, perfecto de disipación. 👏 Pará Mark Cerny y su equipo y gracias Playma por dar esa tranquilidad, poniendo a prueba tu unidad.
Great advice but not much help for BOP races. The constant spinning with BOP cars is frustrating and The AI they talked about is rotten. tired of getting rammed and pushed off the track by AI in the new mission races.
Are you using wide rims?
If so, i always have to cut my camber down to make it feel right. But im a drifter, not much of a racer
If you are on wide rims, id like to see you try this again and see if you still benefit.
I wonder if this has something to do with the suspensions physics? Maybe they act too stiff in GT? Its something Ive debated myself for a while, as it would make sense why Understeering feels so strong in GT particularly and maybe why the rallying has always been lacking?
It's simcade. They are using approximations for everything, not modeling real physics. That's how they get something like camber so wrong. They aren't simulating camber they are approximating it.
All sims are approximating real physics it's just a matter of degree and accuracy. Even the most advanced sims cut corners somewhere so it can run in real time
Look-out tables. I am not sure if Ps5 does have enough juice to run 200 degrees freedoms car models for 16 cars ans draw great graphics at the same time
They need a mechanic where your crew gets better as you complete events and they can learn tunes for different tracks and cars. Missed opportunity if you ask me. I dont have time to mess around with tunes for days on end.
I knew GT wasnt ready to be a real sim racing 😔
Thanks for this vid. I’m shocked you are using Hard tires.
Should we abuse this lack of game physics logic or assume this will be patched qnd drive with the higher values even tho it's less grounded?
I figured this out just over 2 weeks ago when doing tuning min / max tests but thought it was just a result caused by my driving style. When I made setups with more aggressive they were less grounded.
Can you do some tunes for the GR3 cars? I found those difficult to find a balance for especially in some of those rain missions where you can put on full wets and the car still drives like it’s on ice
Just slam the differential to the minimum settings for torque and acceleration
While 3-4 degrees are normal for a race car, it is a bit to much for road cars
I’m starting to wonder if something’s up with the tire simulation. If they’re stiffer than real life, that would probably make camber a lot less effective.
I was thinking whatd happen if you could adjust tire pressure, which is basically adjusting the stiffness of the tire model, in a way.
If you didn't get an automatic lemon-model, the Ford Focus handles well irl.
Would be interesting to have someone else change the settings and have the driver be ignorant of the changes and see what the results are.
I’m very new to this is thus applicable to every car in the game?
3 degree is excessive... like 2 upto 2,5 is common, also depends on the corners. the tighter the corners the more camber you need.
I thought 3 was a bit excessive also.
Tuning in this game is a head fuck. No sim racer thats for sure. Have u got the 2:05:500 on Bathurst yet? I'm still 3 tenths off 😭 video on this would be appreciated.
They did release physics updates in GT sport, wouldnt be surprised if they fixed the physics in gt7 soon. They just need to fix the main problems first
Didn't quite feel it in GT Sport, as only one car had its performance altered dramatically by those physics updates and it was the Gran Turismo F1500 T-A. Before, it was fairly easy to drive and made really fast lap times, but the physics updates made it as difficult to drive as the real Lotus 97T, which slows it down dramatically.
@@X2011racer i felt a huge difference, I played gts for some months in the release year and later came back after the major physics update and road car felt like road cars instead of having a race car that understeers or oversteers way to hard. But gt sport didn’t have the same motive for physics, was way more leaned to simcade
I wonder if it's because the stronger aero of the GT cars can take advantage of the more agressive camber. Have you tested this with GT cars?
Yes, to a very similar outcome.
@@Ermz Hmm, maybe they tuned the "optimum range" to be lower because they want newcomers to try tuning but know that noobs like me are scared of big negative numbers?
Even Forza ms gives you proper telemetry
Given your experience with the braking, it seems like perhaps GT7 has over-exaggerated the degree to which camber hurts straight-line traction (barely noticeable in modern cars). Perhaps that's the only way to balance out camber without a robust tire temperature simulation....
not related to the topic f the video, but it would nice to be able to run a dyno test.
i think im really stupid but i forgot the name of the music playing at 0:20. whats the name of it??
Suspension geometry is different between cartypes. A roadcar, no matter how tuned up it is, always requires less camber, than a spaceframe chassis with low centre of gravity and high downforce. Higher the swaybar rigity is, lower camber needs. But you can't just put a solid axle under a Focus, because it's creates so much force on the tires it's just loses grip. Mainyl because all the weight is well above the wheels. Compare STC and Super Touring cars in the late 90s early 2000s from BTCC. You can clearly see the increase in camber related to lower center of mass as the cars evolved. The Mondeo is a great example. So, in short, GT7 is right in physics simulation. In here you gained lower cornerspeed, but higher straight end speed and shorter brake distance and better acceleration.
^ This. I don't see any of this as a physics flaw. Camber works with where the CG is and the rest of the suspension setup, how hard the springs and swaybars are, and how hard the tires are. In the video we're running racing tires and relatively high spring rates, on a road car. Lower camber completely makes sense.
Almost every race I'm getting smoked. This game is harder than I expected.
reminds me of the drifting meta in forza (4?) that was maxed out positive front camber, so 5 degrees leaning OUT. 😂 you could hold SO much more angle it was dumb
Motorsport or Horizon? Both Forza games have completely different physics.
@@X2011racer motorsport
*cough* RobRSV and his Datsun 510 *cough*
@@X2011racer they are built on the same simulation. With many tweaks, different tire attributes, more lateral grip, etc. Horizons is typically one generation behind.
Idduno how it is in an actual sim-racing games, but if you just watch the replay, the wheel camber is just too much, even for a race car.. I tune camber by watching replays, where you can see if the tire is alligned with the track, or if it's too much(or too less). Also taking inspiration from GR.3 race car to tune road car camber just doesn't work. Otherwise great vid, just wanted to throw this down here.
I'm so glad they finally boosted the fucking payouts in this game. I'm so sick of grinding Trial Moutain. I still need 600,000 for the CLK LM which is almost sold out, then there is the 5,000,000 Aston, 900,000 Fiat, and 20,000,000 Alfa Romeo.
As for camber, I think the issue is that the cars just don't actually lean into the tires as much as real life so having -3 camber doesn't get used in a corner. It was the exact same on GT4, GT5 and GT6. I never played GT Sport but I assume it was the same. I do however, find myself using more camber in 7 than I ever did in previous games but still less than -2.5 all around.
I've started taking notes. I still think that I need to have a wheel and pedal setup. I've tried to mimic your work at Brands Hatch, and was still way off pace. Driver skill is a bitch. I just don't feel the level of control I would have with the wheel's feedback.
Hey guys i was wondering what multiplayer sim i should get into i enjoyed ams2 and project car 2s and assetto corsa but when i tried assetto corsa competizone i just did not have fun with the ffb and physics. Should i try iracing? raceroom what do you guys think
should i just stick to acc?
Does the camber work the same in gtsport
Can't you get a load cell for those pedals?
And that’s why I still say this game will never be a full fledged sim like ppl want it’s to be, still just a simcade game *( gt7 has an IOS/RPG feel too it IMHO )*
Seems arbitrary to focus on one setting when there are a multitude of things that can affect the outcome. I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s a flaw/glitch unless you can do it on every track with every car. You’re technically suppose to tune the car to each track to gain the advantage just like in real life. This is what eludes most with the whole “chase the rabbit” race scenario. Something as simple as ride can have an affect on the camber and there aren’t any regulations on what goes in game versus real life. In various GT3 races I believe it’s 100mm and some cars on here you can slam way below that and this is just one example.
Most cars on here are production cars that were designed to be driven at the factory ride height. The suspension geometry of purpose built race cars is a completely different animal. Just food for thought.
would the same negative camber settings apply to gt3 and gt4 cars?
Good question as they run 3 degrees on standard set up
I will give it a try later see what difference it makes
@@andrewwilliams8235 come back and give an update of your findings, I will try it out tomorrow also
R34 Build with maxed speed but built for handling
Did they fix this? Seems to be correct now
Polyphony might fix this issue with a future patch.
Let's hope!
Wait until you figure out how tune the dampers
Meanwhile on Forza:
-2 to -0.5 degrees of camber because you can just set the steering caster to 7
It doesn't matter what racing platform you play. There is always and will be fake setups. Well not fake but beyond the limits of real life. Every pro racer in any sim platform has a setup that wouldn't apply to real life it's just the physics of every game engine. Find the adjustment that works and use it. Been that way since Grand Prix Legends.
Neg Camber is used to reduce contact patch reducing heat. To reduce wear and increase turn in response. However colder tyres loose grip. Tyre pressure ++ will increase grip but also reduces heat if its set too high. Camber affects lateral agility and longitudinal grip when used effectively. Noone has the right answer as its always a matter of practise, slip angles, testing and more tunng +++driver preference/experience.
You would never put that much camber on road going cars even with racing tyres because they are simply not race cars
Are you completely sure 1.5° isn't optimal though? You want the tires to be flat or almost flat to the ground when taking a corner, while keeping the tires as close as possible to neutral when accelerating and braking.
When I've tuned cars in Forza Horizon 5 (I know) with telemetry and real testing I've always found 1.5° to be the sweet spot for the best performance. You point out yourself that you have later brake markers while braking due to the extra contact patch from having less camber, which is consistent with how it is in reality. Also consider caster, as I'm pretty sure your real camber when turning is a lot higher then 1.5° due to the caster on the car.
My guess is that they don't simulate the contact patch of the outside tyres expanding accurately mid-corner. The cars should gain mid-corner grip with higher camber settings - which they don't. They just become more nervous/oversteery, without the corresponding increase in grip. On GT4 cars I ended up around -2 deg as optimal, which is about half of what these cars would be running in real life.
beamng has similar results most of the time, though it depends on a few different things
How do I get my rs to sound like that
I wish I can play this on a pc
all the online races that matter use BoP so you won't be adjusting anything.
Good thing those crummy bop races aren't everyone's sole focus then.