This is much more relatable to what we do in the fire department rope rescue environment. I'm trying to wrap my head around all the differences with sport climbing and your videos have been very helpful. Thanks for making great content.
Nice video from a fellow SPI! At my company, we set up belayed (releasable) rappels using an elevator to raise the BHK masterpoint away from the cliff edge. We also tie the BHK with offset loops, using the shorter loop as the munter muled rappel line and the longer loop as the belay line, making two separate BHKs unnecessary. This allows us to have our client not only on belay before they step over the edge, but also on rappel. I imagine our clients being much less inclined to step over the edge as you have yours do without rigging their device first. The guide also never has to be over the edge and can comfortably operate at cliff’s edge without hanging the whole time. Just some things to consider for people learning these systems. Thanks for the videos!
@@summitseekersexperience glad to hear it! Also, consider “muting” the munter mule as you release it to eliminate the pop. The client won’t even notice and you won’t have to warn them, as it could cause unnecessary stress for them 😅
@@yetanotherPC it’s material (cordelette or sling) that you wrap around a tree, clip your setup line into, and then tie the masterpoint. This “elevates” the masterpoint up off the ground away from the cliff edge and allows for a much easier setup for the client to go on rappel and then descend over the edge.
Good morning Jason, new subscriber here from Michigan. I enjoy your videos, information, safety points, talent and teaching style. When I have seen the BHK tied, it has these steps: 1. dble over the bight; 2. take all four strands of the dbld. bight and tie overhand loop; 3. Secure the backside of the knot and clip into the master pt (if the backside is short) and if the backside is long-tie to one anchor leg. So this differs in what you show. Can you help me understand your thought on not adding in one of the backside ropes into the master pt? Thank you! Robert
Hey Robert, thanks for the subscribe! Yes, at least the way I have been taught through my AMGA training and I have done some testing, it is not required to secure the backside into the carabiner. This is a relic of the double figure 8 knot where it is CRITICAL to secure the backside of that knot or it won't work. At the end of the day, you want your knots to inspire confidence though, so if it makes you or the people you are climbing with feel better with the backside secured, I would just do it.
Great vid! When you lower via munter at the end there, is there no backup? Say you take rockfall while lowering and let go of the brake strand would the client just fall?
Executing the lower with a third hand back up would definitely be a good option. We weren't taught that specifically for the belay rappel, but technically lowering someone on a munter you should also have a third hand.
Either is good. if you are doing a big group, ATC is better because you have to bring it back up on the rope and it bangs on the rock... ATC can take that no problem, but a heavy grigri may cause issue.
A lower by definition is the weighted rope moving through the fixed rings/carabiner/anchor. In this system, typically, the weighted rope is the rappel line which does not move so it would be a rappel. If I did switch weight to my belay line because the person decided they didn't want to rappel, then it would change to a lower. because my belay line would obviously be moving via munter lower.
What is the maximum distance one 60m climbing rope can rappel on this belayed rappel setup? I assume you just subtract the material needed for two munter mule hitches from 30m but maybe I’m missing something?
Very interesting 🤔 You blew past that 1k mark been sharing this content with my climbing buddies! Any update on the rope give away?? Just started practicing lead yesterday 🥳🤞🏽🤞🏽
Thanks Man, Yeah we did. Yeah, we picked a winner out of a hat and I posted under his comment on the rope video but he didn't respond. I'm going to announce it on the next video and if he doesn't respond from that point, we'll pick a new winner. Thanks for sharing the content! much appreciated.
mmmm, case by case. The way we were taught this system in the SPI course was not to utilize the third hand, likely because you have your hands full already and if they are half way down the rap, they are probably close enough to the ground that risk is reduced. That said, if I had a long lower, I'd probably use a third hand and/or switch to something besides a munter to avoid an accumulation of twists.
Understood... but this is a standard AMGA practice. If you wanted to beef up your protection, you could always use a PAS to clip into one of the master points as well.
I think he's saying the rap line should have protection from the rock edge because the same part of the rope will be in contact with the rough surface and could abrade throughout the rapel. The belay line less so because it's moving. 🤷
N-RIG?? Sounds like you're trying to hit hard R's sir. Then you said Big Honkee Knot? Pushing limits on all sides 😂 Rappelling really is living on the edge isn't it.
@@elmeradams8781their comment isn't really referring to anything climbing specific. Open up urban dictionary and search for "hard r" and "n word", if you're still unsure 🙈
This is difficult to watch. You claim this is what the AMGA taught you, are you sure? It may look similar but I can’t imagine they teach building an anchor where the right (single rope) branch is slack. Or building an anchor that creates a lot of left to right movement over the edge. Or using dynamic rope for the anchor where there’s a LOT of extension movement over the edge. Have you not heard of rope edge protection? Why do you need to be over the edge? And it’s a shame you missed out the section where you wildly throw the belay rope to the client for them to clip in!
Please don't think i'm being rude but this looks like it's the first time you did this outside of the classroom, why are you putting out educational videos when you're still learning yourself, this should be swift, efficient and instinctive.
This is much more relatable to what we do in the fire department rope rescue environment. I'm trying to wrap my head around all the differences with sport climbing and your videos have been very helpful. Thanks for making great content.
Nice video from a fellow SPI! At my company, we set up belayed (releasable) rappels using an elevator to raise the BHK masterpoint away from the cliff edge. We also tie the BHK with offset loops, using the shorter loop as the munter muled rappel line and the longer loop as the belay line, making two separate BHKs unnecessary. This allows us to have our client not only on belay before they step over the edge, but also on rappel. I imagine our clients being much less inclined to step over the edge as you have yours do without rigging their device first. The guide also never has to be over the edge and can comfortably operate at cliff’s edge without hanging the whole time. Just some things to consider for people learning these systems. Thanks for the videos!
Very cool insight. I'm going to look at a couple of these points.
@@summitseekersexperience glad to hear it! Also, consider “muting” the munter mule as you release it to eliminate the pop. The client won’t even notice and you won’t have to warn them, as it could cause unnecessary stress for them 😅
@@bubbyb0i6967 For sure!
What's an elevator?
@@yetanotherPC it’s material (cordelette or sling) that you wrap around a tree, clip your setup line into, and then tie the masterpoint. This “elevates” the masterpoint up off the ground away from the cliff edge and allows for a much easier setup for the client to go on rappel and then descend over the edge.
Congrats on hitting 1000 subscribers
Thanks Brah
Good morning Jason, new subscriber here from Michigan. I enjoy your videos, information, safety points, talent and teaching style. When I have seen the BHK tied, it has these steps: 1. dble over the bight; 2. take all four strands of the dbld. bight and tie overhand loop; 3. Secure the backside of the knot and clip into the master pt (if the backside is short) and if the backside is long-tie to one anchor leg.
So this differs in what you show. Can you help me understand your thought on not adding in one of the backside ropes into the master pt?
Thank you!
Robert
Hey Robert, thanks for the subscribe! Yes, at least the way I have been taught through my AMGA training and I have done some testing, it is not required to secure the backside into the carabiner. This is a relic of the double figure 8 knot where it is CRITICAL to secure the backside of that knot or it won't work. At the end of the day, you want your knots to inspire confidence though, so if it makes you or the people you are climbing with feel better with the backside secured, I would just do it.
great video as usual
Thanks for this video... I'll share to a friend
A edge rope gard is also I good idea to use
Great vid! When you lower via munter at the end there, is there no backup? Say you take rockfall while lowering and let go of the brake strand would the client just fall?
Executing the lower with a third hand back up would definitely be a good option. We weren't taught that specifically for the belay rappel, but technically lowering someone on a munter you should also have a third hand.
Great video and thank you for sharing (i subscribed).
But why use a ATC when you have a Grigri?
Either is good. if you are doing a big group, ATC is better because you have to bring it back up on the rope and it bangs on the rock... ATC can take that no problem, but a heavy grigri may cause issue.
Wouldnt this be considered a lower and not a rappel? Thanks for the vid!
A lower by definition is the weighted rope moving through the fixed rings/carabiner/anchor. In this system, typically, the weighted rope is the rappel line which does not move so it would be a rappel. If I did switch weight to my belay line because the person decided they didn't want to rappel, then it would change to a lower. because my belay line would obviously be moving via munter lower.
What is the maximum distance one 60m climbing rope can rappel on this belayed rappel setup? I assume you just subtract the material needed for two munter mule hitches from 30m but maybe I’m missing something?
You are definitely correct there. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 80-90 feet is a good expectation.
Very interesting 🤔 You blew past that 1k mark been sharing this content with my climbing buddies! Any update on the rope give away?? Just started practicing lead yesterday 🥳🤞🏽🤞🏽
Thanks Man, Yeah we did.
Yeah, we picked a winner out of a hat and I posted under his comment on the rope video but he didn't respond. I'm going to announce it on the next video and if he doesn't respond from that point, we'll pick a new winner.
Thanks for sharing the content! much appreciated.
@@summitseekersexperience awesome thanks for the reply 🙏🏼
How come you did not use a third hand to back up the lower with the munter hitch?
mmmm, case by case. The way we were taught this system in the SPI course was not to utilize the third hand, likely because you have your hands full already and if they are half way down the rap, they are probably close enough to the ground that risk is reduced. That said, if I had a long lower, I'd probably use a third hand and/or switch to something besides a munter to avoid an accumulation of twists.
Thank you
I don't like you being on a single rope that's going over an edge with no protection. It's not that sharp but still...
Understood... but this is a standard AMGA practice. If you wanted to beef up your protection, you could always use a PAS to clip into one of the master points as well.
I think he's saying the rap line should have protection from the rock edge because the same part of the rope will be in contact with the rough surface and could abrade throughout the rapel. The belay line less so because it's moving. 🤷
N-RIG?? Sounds like you're trying to hit hard R's sir. Then you said Big Honkee Knot?
Pushing limits on all sides 😂
Rappelling really is living on the edge isn't it.
Can you explain what you're saying to someone who doesn't understand climbing language?
@@elmeradams8781their comment isn't really referring to anything climbing specific. Open up urban dictionary and search for "hard r" and "n word", if you're still unsure 🙈
This is difficult to watch. You claim this is what the AMGA taught you, are you sure? It may look similar but I can’t imagine they teach building an anchor where the right (single rope) branch is slack. Or building an anchor that creates a lot of left to right movement over the edge. Or using dynamic rope for the anchor where there’s a LOT of extension movement over the edge. Have you not heard of rope edge protection? Why do you need to be over the edge? And it’s a shame you missed out the section where you wildly throw the belay rope to the client for them to clip in!
Please don't think i'm being rude but this looks like it's the first time you did this outside of the classroom, why are you putting out educational videos when you're still learning yourself, this should be swift, efficient and instinctive.