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Stronger than any Knot!
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- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2020
- Hey betaclimbers, in this episode we talk about the strongest way to anchor off of a tree. We also check out some ideas I have been playing around with.
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#climbing #Knots #anchors
You’re a genius! Tried the tentionless anchor yesterday. Worked like a charm. Love the way you think about protecting the tree, keep it clean, and keep the planet green. 👌
The run and kick at the tree got me man!
This type of tree anchor is very common with rescue teams as well as pit cavers (especially in the south eastern US where trees are all around the mouth of the pit usually)
I do not know about using any type of ascender on a static line taking all of the shock loads in case of a fall... they are not really made to take large shock forces (many ascenders will chew through the rope sheath.. perhaps this petzl one is different)
From my experience, depending on the length of rappel, most “static” ropes have plenty of stretch in them for a decent fall or misstep without injury.
That slight breeze blowing on a tree was putting more Force than the heaviest person and all their gear could ever exert on the tree
This channel is the best discovery in a while for me. Great content, even the fail videos are educational! Keep it up! :)
Look up tensionless hitch in CMC rope rescue manuals. Rule of thumb; Minimum 4 wraps and the anchor needs to be a minimum of 4x the diameter of rope. If the anchor (tree in this case) has a good abrasive surface, not smooth, the rope will not slip. If you are concerned about slipping than add more wraps. When using a tree as an anchor for a tensionless hitch it’s better to do a high strength tie off (ruclips.net/video/l_IGG7UbwKc/видео.html)… that towel is doing very little if anything to protect the tree. With sufficient force, the bark under the rope can break free and spin (like a spool) allowing your wraps to be reduced to 1 wrap and a choke. A tensionless hitch is considered a 100% strength while a high strength tie off is rated 97%. The difference is in the last wrap, simply tie an overhand knot around the standing end and wrap the tree once more, then tie off to the standing end similar to what you did with the tensionless. The overhand knot is not loaded unless the rope spins….this will prevent the “unspooling” of your wraps should the bark break free. Attaching the screamer as you have here will only deploy by the amount of slack provide in the wrap, which negates using the tensionless hitch in the first place. Also, you should not load a screamer or any shock absorber device on a main line. They are not designed to have a steady, constant load applied to them. Pulling on them in this way could cause them to deploy unexpectedly…they are for shock loads and work best if attached directly to the climber on a belay line.
That is very interesting with that middle overhand. Thanks for the informative comment 🤙🏻
Thank you for this expert info. I hope it isn't deleted. My suggestions on another of his 'innovative' climbing video was.
(I’m currently 26) when I was a teenager I used to rappel for fun off cliffs but also bridges, bldg, etc (I was a sick little adrenaline junkie lol)…I anchored the rope this way prolly 98% of the time and it never failed
The layer under the bark is the “cambium layer”
@@CalebCWalker lol same
He was referring to the phloem layer (pronounced flow-ohm) which transport water, etc. It goes phloem, cambium, xylem.
@@kwvh Yah and it's the cambium "living" layer that should be protected.
I'd used a prusik instead of a rescucender/rope grab. I've also used a prusik as a sort of redirect to move the rope onto the climbing line if the anchor/tree isn't positioned the best
wdm212 yeah a prussic would work. One thing to watch with redirects is they need to be bomber if they fail you can have a sliding of the rope and a potential cutting hazard. Always try to anchor directly when possible. 👍🏻
If you don't like the idea of having the butterfly knot in there, you could try a prusik or some other friction hitch and clip the screamer to that. It may not move around as much as the Rescucender and might provide a little slippage as it cinches down.
This is absolutely the better way to do it if you want to add a screamer. Minimal strength loss, and a redundant anchor, plus some shock absorption even if you don’t add the screamer. Mechanical prusiks also would be fine, though a lot more expensive.
what about clove hitching the rope to a biner on the screamer with no ascender?
I've rappelled off a bush when I had no other way, and it worked.
The balls 😂😂😂😂
Clearly.
The tension-less anchor works so well its scary..really awesome way to rappel from the top of a bank side or smaller cliff side with lots of trees.
I was going to say use an alpine butterfly for the screamer, but you done done it.
Use a clove hitch vs butterfly. Hitches are stronger, especially if tied around a thick object. 3:1 object diameter to rope diameter retains all tinsel strength.
That may be true, but how strong is tinsel?
so he needs a bina that is 30mm thick?
@@NYpaddlertensile strength not tinsel 😂
Maybe instead of the rescue accender or a knot you could use a prussic wich also could give some slippage to make the fall softer and won´t slip when detentioning and retentioning.
you can put a prusik attached to that system to avoid again any knot such as the butterfly !
YESSSSSS TREE ANCHORS!!
YOU DO CARE!!
You need to leave more slack rope, because the shock absorber opens up to a length of over a meter.
This. Watch a fall arrestor video, bro. You need a bigger lead.
He mentions that towards the end of the video
Good idea but if the shock absorber deploys it is no longer usable, eg cant fall and deploy it otherwise you gotta quit your climb
Phloem? Phlo-em. Phloem.
Thanks for showing me the ropes
What about using a prusick on the climbing rope instead of the screamer and knot?
Good stuff! Keep the great content coming!
5:40 - Pro tip lifehack: buy a set of braces for your jeans. Your cleavage will show less and you can pack more in your pockets without looking like a constant shoplifter all day yay
Do you have any experience with reusable shock absorption systems like the Kong Kisa?
Without any tension, wouldn't the three loops on the tree slide down towards the thicker part of the tree and cause the static line to have less slack?
There is tension on the loaded side and it gradually reduces to zero as you go around the tree (due to friction). The last turn around the tree might slip a little, but the first turn isn't going anywhere as long as the rope stays loaded.
Csn this be used as an anchor for LRS as well?
So you’re using a static line, what’s the negatives to using a dynamic rope? I solo with a dynamic rope but I’m rethinking my life choices
It's easier to ascend a static line if you need to. Or at least it feels easier. It feels like it takes forever to ascend a dynamic line because it just keeps stretching and stretching. But depending on your setup for top rope soling it shouldn't make a difference for the climbing
The stretch is the biggest negative. Depending on the length of the climb and your current position you could fall and stretch several feet. Since TRS "falls"don't generate much force a dynamic isn't really needed. If you're running laps throw up a dynamic. If you're working moves on a tough project a static might be better. It depends on different factors. Knowing and understanding those factors and how the equipment relates is one of the most important TRS skills you can obtain. A dynamic is more multipurpose but if you get serious about TRS there's probably a static/semi in your future.
if youre TR soling use "static".
lead soloing Dynamic.
Static lines do have give to them. They do stretch and it's not insignificant. Good video though
1.5 to 3% elongation per 10% of tensile strength on most static ropes i think id have to double check.
@@rtk90083 it really depends on the rope. I’ve seen static ropes with 3% and I’ve seen semi static with only 2.5. European static ropes stretch more than US standard static ropes
@@cashiscamping5126 thank you cashis yeah i figured there was sum variables that's why i kept it vague, manufacturing, where it was made etc. However I dident realize European static ropes had more stretch than us made static ropes. I learn something new everyday!
Why over complicate things? Just use a rolling hitch! And if you want to make it retrievable, finish it on a bite with a fo8 attached to a pull line. Simple!
And 1 more point, DONT rappell off of static ropes! ☠️ Dynamic only 🙏 👌
Why not use a dynamic rope??
"Assender & Descender folks" don't like the "bounciness' of a dynamic rope. I don't know how they provide for shock absorption in the tree if they slip. The forces on a human body when caught in a fall on a static rope are severe or deadly unless its a very short fall (a couple feet or less). So unless these folk are using a dynamic rope or some other system I'm unaware of while moving around in the tree it seems pretty sketchy. And by the way, a "pendulum swing" is not always a possible way to dissipate the falling forces.
Here in the Canadian Rockies we only have BFG Big F Grizzlies
Protip - BFGs make bomber anchors, and can be used as ascenders in a pinch. They do come with their own set of hazards, though.
@@FallLineJP Yup, to change to ascender mode, just girth hitch the sack above the testis with a tag line, when you want to ascent give the tag line a tug.
Source: This Canadian
i love this dude
If you are a part of the SAR community, you LOVE finding BFTs for anchors.
Shock absorber is a great idea but wouldn't you have to have almost an exact knowledge of the distance it would need to be effective if you're using at an anchor instead of attaching it to yourself? I'm just spitballing, I'm no climbing expert by any means.
50 Stitches Steel yeah great point! That info would be in packaging for the shock absorber you would want enough slack so it can fully extend
Use a kisa lol
Why not use a dynamic rope for TR solo? The rescucender is designed to slip to prevent sheath damage at a fairly low kN i would think that would absorb some shock. Also wouldn't using nylon webbing around the tree do less damage than the rope and add some stretch to the system?
I too think your intro is bad ass!
Cool video. Thanks
I would rather anchor to a tree any day of the week than a bolt. Bolts only go in a few inches, a tree goes in to the ground hundreds of metres for big trees
Not really. Most of a trees roots are spread out just under and in the topsoil. But some species have a tap root that goes straight down to varying depth depending on the species. That's why it's a good idea to evaluate the soil conditions around any tree your using for climbing or something else: soaking wet soil = looser "lift-able" roots, dry soil = firm more solid root connection, sandy soil is a whole other kind tree-connection weakness. That's why it's sketchy to climb trees at a swamp or bog.
@@tr33m00nk people use grass anchors / stakes for top rope climbing here in the UK. They definitely don’t go in as deep as tree roots.
I'm a newbie and confused. You called it a static line a couple times. Does that mean this is not a climbing rope in the common sense? This would be like a rigid rope but modified with the shock absorbing trick you showed?
or am I just not on the mark?
Nearly all lines
opes used to climb on (that is ascend or descend) are called "static" because they stretch very little (usually only 1.5 to 3% elongation per 10% of tensile strength: tensile strength is reported as lbs or kiloNewtons of force the rope can withstand before "failure" and it varies with the materials in the rope and the structure of the rope). The downside is that when one falls on a static rope there is almost no give in the rope to absorb the energy of the falling person and a fall of only 3-4 feet can cause serious bodily injury if the energy is not dissipated by rope stretch and the stretch of any other equipment that stretches or otherwise absorbs the 'falling energy' that you have between you and the rope. This is why rock climbers use dynamic rope designed to absorb 'fall energy' if its rigged & used properly. I recommend looking up "ropes" at petzl.com or blackdiamondequipment.com or mammut.com if you really want to know more about how to avoid injury or death while using ropes to climb.
How would you retrive this as a rap anchor?
Can you explain more about all the options to top rope solo please, sorry for using dis comment box oot
'Top roping' usually refers to rock climbing by going to a spot above a "cliff" one wants to climb and installing 'anchors' of various types with a "belay point" which a dynamic rope is attached to at its midpoint and the rest of the rope is thrown down the cliff. Whereupon those who installed the anchor/belay point go back to the bottom of the cliff where one person 'clips in to one end of the rope' and another person prepares to belay the climber by controlling the other end of the rope. Then whoever is involved takes turns climbing/belaying. SOLOing on a top rope system is a SPECIALIZED ACTIVITY requiring SPECIAL PROCEDURES you need to study first if you don't want to die! IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TREE CLIMBING!
it is true if you have slack and fall 2 or 3 feet with a static rope and it catches you wrong it will without a doubt break your back but if there is no slack in the rope you should be ok
Not an expert but doing a course on this stuff: even "static" ropes have a degree of stretch in them. That stretch depends on how long the rope is. So if you slip 30m below an anchor, it will be a less severe shock than if you fell 1m below the anchor.
Does anyone have tips on how to best protect the rope as it goes over the edge so it doesn't get damaged? Josh (@betaclimbers) do you already have a video on this?
ruclips.net/video/d8ASXNdToDo/видео.html
@@BetaClimbers you da bomb.com Josh, thanks!
上に巻いていく、下に巻いていくでなにかちがいはありますか?又何巻以上巻かなければならない等はありますか。
巻き上げても巻き下げでも違いはありません。一部の木はより滑らかな樹皮とサイズを持っているので、より多くのコイルが必要になる場合があります。実験
Why do you use a shockabsorber? I think unless you use a dyneema rope it shouldn't be necessary. The "normal" static ropes are not static. Ther are actually semi static. If you climb toperope self belay, you do not take big falls. So in my opinion and from my experience there is no serious shockload at the ankerpoint.
Yeah that’s exactly my argument but when I set that up on my top rope solo videos I get comments like. “If you fall it will be broke back mountain” so I figured I’d throw this idea out for them. Lol 😂 Haven’t the knots in the system also is contradictory to the whole tensionless anchor system as well. However I guess the tensionless system would make those knots a bit stronger cause things would slip at the anchor before they worked on the knots.
Arborist here: most of the time, a tree is not hollow. Some of the time, a tree IS hollow. Some of the time when a tree is hollow, you can see that it's hollow. Some of the time, you can't. Arborists, who are trained to know trees, rarely break a secretly hollow tree, but it does happen, and if you're not an arborist, you have a lot less knowledge about which tree is likely to be deathly hollow.
Before I trust my body to a tree while doing arborist work, I tie off near the top and pull the tree sideways as hard as I can. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. If you have absolutely any doubt about the strength of your tree, tie up as high as you can and test it with as much tension as you can, then tie it back at the base. Tying up high for the test gives you more leverage, so you put more tension on the tree, to simulate the shock load of a fall; tying low for your climb gives you "less" leverage, so your actual fall puts less force on the tree.
Also, if you're going to be tying off to trees a lot, maybe talk to an arborist who is familiar with the main species of trees in your area, and ask if any of them are particularly prone to this kind of issue. In my area of South Central Manitoba, for example, I'd think twice before tying off to a gnarly Acer negundo, aka scrub maple, boxelder, Manitoba maple. They are far too often riddled with internal cavities, because in spring when little food is available, squirrels chew their bark off to lick the droplets of sugary sap that form. This introduces rot into the relatively soft internals of the tree (unlike most maples, this one has soft wood), but it grows so fast that it can heal over the rot, hiding the fatal flaw. That's just one local example, your area is bound to be different.
Solid set up !
Cool video! Good to know this works, don't forget your towel :D Do you rope solo from a bottom anchor similarly? With dynamic rope of course.
Giovanny Gatto I would tie it a bit differently around a tree because of the upward pull you don’t want it sliding up the tree.
BetaClimbers you can still get the majority of your rope strength with just a single wrap and a running bowline (Yosemite finish if you feel the need to back it up). Arborists climb on that all the time, and it would even work for your soloing needs.
"Don't forget to bring a towel" -- Towelie
Phloem and xylem!
Why don’t you use a dynamic line instead?
How heavy of a load can the screamer take before it starts to activate?
I like the idea, but would have to be careful that the screamer is near the master point and the load isn’t all being taken up around edges and such.
The tree protector is really not necessary, unless the tree is being used very frequently. It matters even less with something like the oak in the video. I'm only referring to anchor systems like shown, there are certainly anchors where you definitely want some protection for the tree.
Is there really a need to back up the screamer?
So is this widely considered as ok or is this just a personal method expounded upon?
I’ll put it this way. I didn’t invent it up. Well The part with the shock absorber I did but that was just to be thought provoking, no one really cycle loads a screamer.
Cambium layer
He may have gotten a few things mixed up but I love that he tells the audience to protect the tree when using it as anchor I like this guy already even if he was incorrect. He’s smarter than most, save the tree
If you use a static rope you could use a shock hitch?
Cool, what's that and where does one find how to make and use it?
Why do you solo on a static rope and not a dynamic rope?
MrJmgam it’s more convenient because when you jump off the cliff you lose no progress you don’t fall down. Also by not falling and bouncing this protects the rope in a couple ways the device puts less force on the rope and the rope doesn’t rub on the rock. Then when it’s time to Jumar it is much better to jumar on a static line.
Try it.... use an ordinary dynamic rope, climb up 6 feet/2m (with some self belay device) and sit back on the rope. Depending on the height/length of the top rope you'll probably end up sitting on the floor :) If you don't have a semi-static and it's a short route/small crag, you might find it helpful to self-top-rope on 2 strands of dynamic (2 devices or a petzl shunt which can do both)
Try CT roll n lock or microtraxion. With grigri style devices I usually drop a bit, roll n lock I'm stay more in place. Definitely not a fan of trs on static lines.
hey, which static ropes do you climb with? any u can recommend?
thanks!
I’m a fan of blue water ropes. 🤙🏻
What do you think about the connecticut hitch?
I made a video of it on a “answer mail time” or something but I think it’s slick way to tie around Something but you can just do the same thing by making a bowline which is what I would do prob 9 times out of ten. I’d have to be in a situation where I was really tight on rope and hand to conserve every inch or something. I mean if it isn’t constantly under tension the biner might slip around so yeah I think it’s a cool tool to have in your back pocket but prob not my go to.
@@BetaClimbers that's what my thinking was too on it but dale remsberg recommends it strongly and I can't really see why if you're able to make a bowline with quite often less rope. who knows.
@@BetaClimbers on second thought i see why he recommends it now. if you get to the top of a climb and theres a bomber tree and youre still tied in, the connecticut hitch is a super quick and easy way to make an anchor on the tree. It's good as long as you're still tied in because then the hitch has nowhere to slip even if it does slip. With a bowline, you would have to untie yourself from the rope in order to tie one to the tree.
@@hoganwarlock1430 you wouldn’t need to untied from the rope to tie a bowline around. You would just need to make a bowline on a bite.
Grab a bite of rope near your tie in point. Rap it around the tree, then on one side make your loop. Feed your bite in to make the bowline and then lock off the loop with a biner. In the end it’s just a different way to skin a cat. It might just be faster to build and unbuild.
yr intro is awesome! what's that beat name ?
pawel bialek I’ll have to get back to you one. I use epidemic sounds to get my music. Made that intro a year ago lol
pawel bialek “The drop in the club 3 - Nicolas Gustavsson”
Thanks. And thank you for the channel :)
It would be nice to see how to tie the figure 8 more closely. For those who have short attention spans and a horrible memory
he kinda said that that stuff was covered in other videos. There are DOZENS (thousands) of videos on knot tying on youtube here's one by an expert arborist /teacher (anything BINO H posts is GOLD!!) ruclips.net/video/hL0ZIGhqNRM/видео.html @1:37 And here's BINO H's catalog of tree climbing videos: www.youtube.com/@BinoH/videos
@@tr33m00nk it was the first video I watched of his. This video I even slowed down to half the speed to understand the figure 8. My bad attention span could be caused by my adhd, injuries to the head, or my long time ago diagnosis of Asperger’s.
Why not connect to a prusik rather than tie a alpine butterfly knot? That way ur not dealing with the not to knot issue. lol
Phylum, and cambium
And pith
No, phloem... A phylum is a classification of life (kingdom, phylum, class, order, ... etc)
How big of a fall are you expecting to take while TRS to need a screamer!?
Moi Nicholas lol no fall at all I put that in there to tickle peoples brains 🧠 🤣
@@BetaClimbers -- That device that you are calling a "screamer" looks to be similar to what we had on safety harnesses when working aloft in the Navy. Best I could tell from looking at them back then (never took a fall, so I'm not absolutely certain) is that they were a long piece of webbing which was folded over on top of itself a certain amount (12-18 inches probably), then sewn together (although not sewn that strong together). As such, each time a new layer was sewn, the older layers were also being sewn, thus making each layer difficult to be ripped open. I'm assuming that there were the same number of stitches on each layer, but there's no reason why they might not have increased the stitches in the lower levels so that it was progressive in the force that it was exerting in decelerating you.
@@jakeblanton6853 that is correct they are still used all over in the industrial world for all protection.
@@BetaClimbers -- Have you examined them after they have been activated to see if there is the same number of stitches in all the layers? I'm thinking an argument could be made for increasing the number of stitches on a layer as you get closer to the actual end of the ripped apart webbing...
@@jakeblanton6853 the amount of stitches are calculated to rip at a certain amount of force. Then the amount of layers are added to slow that force down. It’s an interesting subject I’ll have to make a video on it thanks for this idea.
Too much gear. I don't see how you'll create so much force top rope soloing to justify this. Makes no sense for rappelling since you can't pull the rope down.
6:35 shock absorbingness? don't you mean "shock absorbation" ?
I dont know anyone who cycleloads a screamer
Matthew Hickey my attempt at appeasing some people lol Just threw the idea out there I haven’t actually used it this way yet . I wonder if it would be trash after one session. 🤷🏻♂️
You have to be intelligent in picking the tree.
I want to like your videos... I just don't. I believe youre well intentioned but just are missing on delivery and substance.
If youre TR Soloing what is your worry that you would need screamer? What kind of shady scenarios are you getting into STRing with a (semi) static rope that you would consider this..... It feels like your trying to make the video longer for some reason.
Decent info on the tree wrap. I was taught minimum 3 wraps, with 4 preferable. also a great option would be some webbing and a doing a wrap 4, pull 2 for your anchor.
Looks like you didn’t fall for the bait. Haha yeah that screamer was just to make a talking point. Have fun climb safe out there 🤙🏻