Its even better knowing Cawl has a Guilliman ai. That whenevet booted up threatens to kill him everytime lol. And even Cawl is cacking his pants a tad that he may escape his computer prison 😂
Dharmic, I'd say. The superhuman formed from 30,000 shamans merging their souls to save themselves from Warp beasts ends up becoming a warp deity. Less surprising from that angle, no?
Don't forget that if he didn't than we'd have a Chaos God of Unbelief. Since all of them are born from thoughts or concepts. The emperor moght have been able to get rid of the four but another one would arise. Plus as long as bloodshed exists, so will Khorne. As long as hope, the wish to defy fate and/or to make your own destiny exist, so will Tzeech. You get the idea
"what went into the throne room may not be what emerges" is such a chilling quote. The emperor's consciouness has been fractured so many times over the last 10k years that he's currently but a husk of his former self, filled with some kind of gestalt of mankind's faith and his own dissonant thoughts. He has become the very reflection of the current Imperium. As Guilliman puts it: "A bloated carcass of an empire, driven not by reason, but by fear" and fear is what i feel if that thing sitting on the golden throne truly awakens if there's true hope for mankind, it lies in that fragment of soul that the emperor cast aside long time ago - the star child
And further expanding on that line of thought is, every god represents something. An element, a piece of existence which they embody, in its full, raw form. And what has the Emperor been feeling, overwhelmingly, for the last 10 thousand years? Pain, suffering, agony, despair. Imagine if THAT god were to emerge in the universe of 40k, with the full control and faith of a billion worlds....
@@redknight6695First thing on the shitlist of that god is the utter annihilation of every enemy of the Imperium, then the utter annihilation of any defiance within the Imperium.
They're still playing with the strict definition of godhood. Reluctantly admitting he's as much a God as the Chaos entities, but reinforcing that that's a bad thing. Especially since unlike the Chaos gods, the Big E has a perfect physical tether.
It all depends on what the definition of a god is. If emperor were to truly die then I would say there exists a high possibility of him becoming the 5th chaos god in similar way that Slaanesh did.
One of the things i like about the emperor in WH40K is that he is basically an eldritch god (even more than the obvious chaos gods). He is not a god in the way we think of gods, he is a "human" but he is the final point of human evolution and he is so far ahead that his abilities looks like those of a god in the eyes of other beings, including his sons.
@@KhorgosKhul did you mean "immortal"? And no, in real life and as of now obviously not. But as OP said, the emperor is a theoretical super advanced evolutionary stage of our species, and stellcem and genetic research even nowadays already suggests that it is absolutly possible in theory to stop cells from aging, its just not evolutionary beneficial for that to develop. So with super advanced genetics, tech and some warp shennanigans, an immortal (ar at least ageless) human isnt all that implausible.
@@666Kacamy guess he was the perfect human “1 in infinity” chance of happening and he was it a man that was connected to the warp since his creation but still was human to his core he saw what lies in the universe and wanted more for humans he wanted them to survive what will face them in the future but he was still human and he made mistakes down the line like with his many sons
A man who never wished to be worshiped or praised is now forced to become a god. Not because he wants to but because it’s the only way to save mankind. Doesn’t get more grimdark than that.
@mEmory______ if the emperor wakes up again, the galaxy is doomed because it's foretold that if he ever does, he becomes the fifth chaos God The dark king, who will extinguish every light in the galaxy
@@DepressedCrow it may come to that anyway. the imperium, the orks or the eldar have no response to the tyrranids that is effective. the Necron could stop them but its too late for them to be of use since they are of such small numbers and the vast majority of them are still asleep. the emperor reawaked in life if the theories are correct would be far far more powerful then at the end of the heresy and i see no reason he couldn't psychically dominate the hive mind. however yes he would likely be pissed off at the imperium. if only their was some one who would be there when he woke up to instead get him to give the web way project his full attention again. im sure he could repair it while sitting the golden throne and flush the demons out of it.
a very exquisite grimdark flavor from 40k once again! you would expect it’s a hopeful sentiment that the THE Big E can finally return to the setting in all his glory but nope, we are instead warned that his return might very well be end of the Imperium and mankind itself 😅 tasteful irony like no other
"If it is possible to restore the emperor and if he could regain true life, then what went into the throne room of the imperial palace, may not be what emerges." God, it's things like this that make me LOVE the imperium as a faction. Amongst demigods, demons, xenos and a horde of ever-adapting insectoids...there is always this feeling that the imperium could wipe the board clean with every single last one of them if we could just get out of our own damn way. Like, we're always one step from regaining our footing and swarming over the galaxy in a righteous underdog story, or we're literally a hairs breath from imploding at the seams. I love that constant feeling of there being a coin flip for humanity between the epic comeback of ungodly proportions or "Well, shit, we're fucked".
The fact that I don't see the emperor as a chaos god, (yet, its still a possibility, but he could just stay a god of order) its not right to call the beings in the warp that are aligned with him demons. But, they do exist, the inquisition even knows about them, though they aren't sure about how they feel about them yet. The interesting thing would ever be if an order equivalent to the "eye of terror" ever became a thing and all these order beings started fighting in reality with the demons.
I wonder how Guilliman must feel in this moment. If the Emperor is transforming into a god, did Lorgar know a truth that had yet come to pass? Did he deserve his punishment? What foundation is the Imperium really built on if the Imperial truth is now false? What will come after?
It may be why The Emperor reacted so harshly. It may have became apparent to him that people's belief that he was a god would inevitable affect him, his behavior, his belief, his fundamental being. His ultimate goal was to rid humanity of the tyranny of gods, and the Imperiums belief in him as a god would inevitably give them one against his will.
Don't forget, Big E was content with letting it continue, as he did with the Cult Mechanicus. His main issue was Lorgar shirking his true responsibility as a conqueror, by putting all his efforts into his pet project of Monarchia.
Maybe keep the text on for a tad bit longer no need to change the pace of the dialog but keeping the text on for a few millisecond would make it easier to follow.
If the imperium survives that coming dark, Guilliman is absolutely gonna kill big E. Sacrifice his name, his honour, his love and become the archtraitor to turn Horus into a footnote of history, to save the Imperium from it's god.
The Emperor returning would be a problem. Personally, and please correct me if I am wrong, but it might be more prudent to ease his burden, so to speak. If his Webway can be fixed, however difficult it may be, and/or perhaps shut down for good, then Terra won't be at risk of being consumed by the Warp and the Emperor won't have to strain himself holding it back. If they could come up with a new method of interstellar navigation, then the Astronomechon won't be needed anymore either. The ideal scenario would be to render the Emperor obsolete, so that he can finally find the peace he has earned. ... Now that I think about it, could this backfire a little? Could his internment on the Golden Throne, fighting off the Warp, be the only thing preventing him from fully becoming the new Chaos God? It just occurred to me that with the faith of all mankind believing him to be a god, I'm not sure what would happen if his burden was lifted.
I've seen many people theorize he is to be the God of Hope, of Determination, of Resolve, but as with all things, it holds it's own counter balance: naivety, dogma, blindness.
I've heard the theory that he can ascend and become a god much like Chaos at any time, but the birth of Slaanesh destroyed most of the Eldar empire in realspace, creating the Eye of Terror. And the Warp was less turbulent then. If the Emperor's ascended, it would destroy Terra, much of the Imperium, probably creating a rift even bigger than the Eye and potentially tearing the galaxy apart. He may well be forcibly suppressing his latent godhood, but he's kinda between a rock and a hard place. If he dies, humanity dies, if he ascends, humanity dies. Possibly the only way he can keep humanity alive is by continuing his agony upon the verge of death as long as possible
@@Aqua311The Throne is the key. It MUST have some upon it once activated which is why the Emperor neither allowed himself time to heal or just die and revive like Vulcan. If the Throne died then, they neither had the time or resources to find an alternative solution that wouldn't just have the warp gate explode. This is only conpacted further by the sheer anount of warp energy its been channeling into him - at this point even being a perpetual might not stop his apothiosis into the Dark King upon his death.
@@Makorze Could the technology of the Necrons be able to help repair or mitigate the damage done to the Webway gate? Of course you're right that they still need to do something about the Emperor himself. Got any ideas?
anyone else notice the last part seemed like Guilliman may have to fight the Emp? CI: Because ALL gods are a blight on existence, no matter if they call themselves gods or not... DO NOT FORGET IT. I think we may see Papa Smurf fight part of Big E
It may as well tie to what Malcador said to Horus about who should who humanity and the outcome the Emperor wanted for humanity. None of the Primarches are fit to rule humanity for the long term for they aren't normal humans. They don't age and die like they do, and that leads to more warp fuckery. Hence why Roboute hates to be revered and dispels it whenever possible.
I wonder if humanity wouldn’t be better off free of the emperor's tyranny. Free to act, compete, organise. Surely this would lead to reform, to improvement in the conditions of Man through rational thinking àd renewed belief. Would humanity temper the influence of chaos by knowing about its existence and how it is a result of excessive emotions ? Being a bit more logical and less faith based around industry and science would not hurt, as well as allowing more democratic oriented self rule on planets. Or perhaps everything would then fall to chaos or xenos ? Still i think they could do far better than the autocratically induced incompetence of the imperium government and the barely functional industry of the mechanicus. Making the empire a better place to live for people, valuing and respecting life more would enable to make a case for the imperium being better than siding with chaos. They should try to combine AI with machine spirits and give more leeway to AIs, instead of the abomination that are the human computers of the mechanicum. Seeing the bottomless torso of someone being used as a stand-in for electronics is disgusting and inneficient.
Um, without the emperor humanity is totally fcked. He's literally holding back demons from coming through a hole in reality through his half dead state.
... You seem to forget that they are under atack LITERALY 24/7 and don't have the fucking time to sit around and discuss some pretty reform. Or that the emperor is contantly keeping a hoard of deamons at bay and allowing for space travel. Your comment feels like ignoring the whole setting, yes, they fall to chaos and/or xenos, that is not even open to debate.
At this moment? No. Humanity would die instantly if Big E were to die or be removed, due to the horrific mistake Magnus made in destroying the Webway Project. The Golden Throne doesn't just act as a beacon, it's a plug to stop the largest Chaos Rift in existence from spilling out across the galaxy. Big E dies without a replacement of comparable power (Malcador, Magnus), then it's over. And you're being idealistic. What you're describing is the Golden Age of Humanity, which collapsed into the Age of Strife, BECAUSE they reached such heights with technology and society. Xenos allies turned on them immediately once they were weakened. The Emperor is an arrogant tyrant, an autocrat who does have good intentions, but is blinded by his own need for expedient outcomes and powered by his ego. Yet he is necessary now. He was necessary in the Crusade. Necessary in the Heresy, and is necessary now. He is a pillar that the Imperium can never shed. Once the Triumph at Ullanor happened, he became irreplaceable and necessary: A fact which many of his old allies criticized and complained about.
Well since we know how the Horus Heresy ends *Spoiler* It was the Emperors back up plan to be worshipped as a God to fight the Chaos Gods and from the Cipher (Dark Angel) novel, he will be killed to finally ascend and defeat Chaos Gods (Eye of Terror book not canon but a lord of change at the end said it and might have been the one the Lion himself fought)
"If I were the Archmagos ... which I am not! ... I would..." Sure, buddy, sure. You definitely aren't a clone, of course not.
Its even better knowing Cawl has a Guilliman ai. That whenevet booted up threatens to kill him everytime lol.
And even Cawl is cacking his pants a tad that he may escape his computer prison 😂
This conversation made me realize how much i need a cawl inferior in my life
ChatGPT is Cawl Inferior: Full of knowledge, infinitely stupid.
The Emperor forced humanity to believe in no gods; in turn they forcibly made him their deity. It's very karmic when you think about it.
Dharmic, I'd say. The superhuman formed from 30,000 shamans merging their souls to save themselves from Warp beasts ends up becoming a warp deity. Less surprising from that angle, no?
@@johnd2058 Excellent point, ties to duty also and the Imperial ethos
Don't forget that if he didn't than we'd have a Chaos God of Unbelief.
Since all of them are born from thoughts or concepts.
The emperor moght have been able to get rid of the four but another one would arise.
Plus as long as bloodshed exists, so will Khorne. As long as hope, the wish to defy fate and/or to make your own destiny exist, so will Tzeech.
You get the idea
@@mariusconstantin6057 so hard did the emperor tried to break the wheel, only in turn to become the wheel himself.
@@everyonethinksyoureadeathm5773Oh the irony
“God’s are for the weak. I am not weak.”
- Fabius Bile
I feel like people ignore how clever that writing is with "who". Guilliman thought he was playing with him but the implications behind those words...
"what went into the throne room may not be what emerges" is such a chilling quote. The emperor's consciouness has been fractured so many times over the last 10k years that he's currently but a husk of his former self, filled with some kind of gestalt of mankind's faith and his own dissonant thoughts. He has become the very reflection of the current Imperium. As Guilliman puts it: "A bloated carcass of an empire, driven not by reason, but by fear"
and fear is what i feel if that thing sitting on the golden throne truly awakens
if there's true hope for mankind, it lies in that fragment of soul that the emperor cast aside long time ago - the star child
So cawl thinks he is not a god right now but he will be if he ever wakes up.
And further expanding on that line of thought is, every god represents something. An element, a piece of existence which they embody, in its full, raw form. And what has the Emperor been feeling, overwhelmingly, for the last 10 thousand years? Pain, suffering, agony, despair.
Imagine if THAT god were to emerge in the universe of 40k, with the full control and faith of a billion worlds....
@@redknight6695First thing on the shitlist of that god is the utter annihilation of every enemy of the Imperium, then the utter annihilation of any defiance within the Imperium.
@@KePzezand then the people who caused him pain, the people who kill his subjects, humans
They're still playing with the strict definition of godhood. Reluctantly admitting he's as much a God as the Chaos entities, but reinforcing that that's a bad thing. Especially since unlike the Chaos gods, the Big E has a perfect physical tether.
It all depends on what the definition of a god is.
If emperor were to truly die then I would say there exists a high possibility of him becoming the 5th chaos god in similar way that Slaanesh did.
One of the things i like about the emperor in WH40K is that he is basically an eldritch god (even more than the obvious chaos gods).
He is not a god in the way we think of gods, he is a "human" but he is the final point of human evolution and he is so far ahead that his abilities looks like those of a god in the eyes of other beings, including his sons.
Humans no matter how you want to twist it ARE NOT MORTAL.
Necrons would neg everyone in this galaxy and beyond
@@KhorgosKhul did you mean "immortal"? And no, in real life and as of now obviously not. But as OP said, the emperor is a theoretical super advanced evolutionary stage of our species, and stellcem and genetic research even nowadays already suggests that it is absolutly possible in theory to stop cells from aging, its just not evolutionary beneficial for that to develop. So with super advanced genetics, tech and some warp shennanigans, an immortal (ar at least ageless) human isnt all that implausible.
@@datzfatz2368except the emperor was born in the stone age and i doubt they had anti aging tech or super advanced genes back then
@@666Kacamy guess he was the perfect human “1 in infinity” chance of happening and he was it a man that was connected to the warp since his creation but still was human to his core he saw what lies in the universe and wanted more for humans he wanted them to survive what will face them in the future but he was still human and he made mistakes down the line like with his many sons
i love how cawl dodges some questions like he's being interrogated by the cops lmao
A man who never wished to be worshiped or praised is now forced to become a god. Not because he wants to but because it’s the only way to save mankind. Doesn’t get more grimdark than that.
It would probably be the destruction of humanity for the emperor to wake up.
@mEmory______ if the emperor wakes up again, the galaxy is doomed because it's foretold that if he ever does, he becomes the fifth chaos God
The dark king, who will extinguish every light in the galaxy
@@DepressedCrow probably will be God of Order where free will is not permitted
Would be getting revived be grim dark. Or just Fantasy
@@DepressedCrow it may come to that anyway. the imperium, the orks or the eldar have no response to the tyrranids that is effective. the Necron could stop them but its too late for them to be of use since they are of such small numbers and the vast majority of them are still asleep. the emperor reawaked in life if the theories are correct would be far far more powerful then at the end of the heresy and i see no reason he couldn't psychically dominate the hive mind. however yes he would likely be pissed off at the imperium. if only their was some one who would be there when he woke up to instead get him to give the web way project his full attention again. im sure he could repair it while sitting the golden throne and flush the demons out of it.
Excellent voice acting! You portrayed both characters well
Asking ChatGPT to expand and elaborate be like:
Ayyyy but really when you try to press ChatGPT on things it just reminds you that it’s has no opinions.
@@Cadriul Just like this cawl inferior thing until it was caught
@@Cadriulask it to pretend.
All gods are a blight on existence.
That’s great writing man.
Some Old ones seemed really chill
a very exquisite grimdark flavor from 40k once again! you would expect it’s a hopeful sentiment that the THE Big E can finally return to the setting in all his glory but nope, we are instead warned that his return might very well be end of the Imperium and mankind itself 😅 tasteful irony like no other
"If it is possible to restore the emperor and if he could regain true life, then what went into the throne room of the imperial palace, may not be what emerges."
God, it's things like this that make me LOVE the imperium as a faction. Amongst demigods, demons, xenos and a horde of ever-adapting insectoids...there is always this feeling that the imperium could wipe the board clean with every single last one of them if we could just get out of our own damn way. Like, we're always one step from regaining our footing and swarming over the galaxy in a righteous underdog story, or we're literally a hairs breath from imploding at the seams.
I love that constant feeling of there being a coin flip for humanity between the epic comeback of ungodly proportions or "Well, shit, we're fucked".
Glass canons
Great voice acting , fits both of them so well
Have you considered doing a audio book with your skill in voice and vocabulary.
It's definitely a long term goal.
This is fucking amazing.
Will we get that scene where Bobby g scares his pet priest shitless after he went aganist his order..
Very well done, as usual. You're growing it seems, keep it up, you got this down pat with the VA work.
Another great video. Cheers
Huge fan of your work!
Great work
Impeccable ❤
Perhaps that was the emperor’s lesson to figure it out without a chaos God
The fact that I don't see the emperor as a chaos god, (yet, its still a possibility, but he could just stay a god of order) its not right to call the beings in the warp that are aligned with him demons. But, they do exist, the inquisition even knows about them, though they aren't sure about how they feel about them yet. The interesting thing would ever be if an order equivalent to the "eye of terror" ever became a thing and all these order beings started fighting in reality with the demons.
I wonder how Guilliman must feel in this moment. If the Emperor is transforming into a god, did Lorgar know a truth that had yet come to pass? Did he deserve his punishment? What foundation is the Imperium really built on if the Imperial truth is now false? What will come after?
Only way to ensure humanity's future, is to kill the emperor without needing him alive
It may be why The Emperor reacted so harshly. It may have became apparent to him that people's belief that he was a god would inevitable affect him, his behavior, his belief, his fundamental being.
His ultimate goal was to rid humanity of the tyranny of gods, and the Imperiums belief in him as a god would inevitably give them one against his will.
@@TheCandidPygmySo in true churchly fashion, Lorgar did naughty things to the Emperor without consent
Don't forget, Big E was content with letting it continue, as he did with the Cult Mechanicus. His main issue was Lorgar shirking his true responsibility as a conqueror, by putting all his efforts into his pet project of Monarchia.
Maybe keep the text on for a tad bit longer no need to change the pace of the dialog but keeping the text on for a few millisecond would make it easier to follow.
@@pinetree7296 Yeah, I feel that. Still experimenting with my editing style and the fading text is new so I'm still trying to get it right
If the imperium survives that coming dark, Guilliman is absolutely gonna kill big E. Sacrifice his name, his honour, his love and become the archtraitor to turn Horus into a footnote of history, to save the Imperium from it's god.
I love this idea. Irony at its best.
The Emperor returning would be a problem.
Personally, and please correct me if I am wrong, but it might be more prudent to ease his burden, so to speak. If his Webway can be fixed, however difficult it may be, and/or perhaps shut down for good, then Terra won't be at risk of being consumed by the Warp and the Emperor won't have to strain himself holding it back.
If they could come up with a new method of interstellar navigation, then the Astronomechon won't be needed anymore either.
The ideal scenario would be to render the Emperor obsolete, so that he can finally find the peace he has earned.
... Now that I think about it, could this backfire a little? Could his internment on the Golden Throne, fighting off the Warp, be the only thing preventing him from fully becoming the new Chaos God? It just occurred to me that with the faith of all mankind believing him to be a god, I'm not sure what would happen if his burden was lifted.
I've seen many people theorize he is to be the God of Hope, of Determination, of Resolve, but as with all things, it holds it's own counter balance: naivety, dogma, blindness.
I've heard the theory that he can ascend and become a god much like Chaos at any time, but the birth of Slaanesh destroyed most of the Eldar empire in realspace, creating the Eye of Terror. And the Warp was less turbulent then. If the Emperor's ascended, it would destroy Terra, much of the Imperium, probably creating a rift even bigger than the Eye and potentially tearing the galaxy apart. He may well be forcibly suppressing his latent godhood, but he's kinda between a rock and a hard place. If he dies, humanity dies, if he ascends, humanity dies. Possibly the only way he can keep humanity alive is by continuing his agony upon the verge of death as long as possible
@@johnozzmond9728 That's what I was afraid of and the Golden Throne is starting to fail, from what I heard.
Dammit, Lorgar.
@@Aqua311The Throne is the key. It MUST have some upon it once activated which is why the Emperor neither allowed himself time to heal or just die and revive like Vulcan.
If the Throne died then, they neither had the time or resources to find an alternative solution that wouldn't just have the warp gate explode.
This is only conpacted further by the sheer anount of warp energy its been channeling into him - at this point even being a perpetual might not stop his apothiosis into the Dark King upon his death.
@@Makorze Could the technology of the Necrons be able to help repair or mitigate the damage done to the Webway gate?
Of course you're right that they still need to do something about the Emperor himself. Got any ideas?
Chiiiiiiillls!
Mhmmm. Dark Imperium at its finest :D
❤
anyone else notice the last part seemed like Guilliman may have to fight the Emp?
CI: Because ALL gods are a blight on existence, no matter if they call themselves gods or not... DO NOT FORGET IT.
I think we may see Papa Smurf fight part of Big E
It may as well tie to what Malcador said to Horus about who should who humanity and the outcome the Emperor wanted for humanity. None of the Primarches are fit to rule humanity for the long term for they aren't normal humans. They don't age and die like they do, and that leads to more warp fuckery. Hence why Roboute hates to be revered and dispels it whenever possible.
I wonder if humanity wouldn’t be better off free of the emperor's tyranny.
Free to act, compete, organise. Surely this would lead to reform, to improvement in the conditions of Man through rational thinking àd renewed belief.
Would humanity temper the influence of chaos by knowing about its existence and how it is a result of excessive emotions ?
Being a bit more logical and less faith based around industry and science would not hurt, as well as allowing more democratic oriented self rule on planets.
Or perhaps everything would then fall to chaos or xenos ?
Still i think they could do far better than the autocratically induced incompetence of the imperium government and the barely functional industry of the mechanicus.
Making the empire a better place to live for people, valuing and respecting life more would enable to make a case for the imperium being better than siding with chaos.
They should try to combine AI with machine spirits and give more leeway to AIs, instead of the abomination that are the human computers of the mechanicum.
Seeing the bottomless torso of someone being used as a stand-in for electronics is disgusting and inneficient.
Heresy.
NOO
Um, without the emperor humanity is totally fcked. He's literally holding back demons from coming through a hole in reality through his half dead state.
...
You seem to forget that they are under atack LITERALY 24/7 and don't have the fucking time to sit around and discuss some pretty reform.
Or that the emperor is contantly keeping a hoard of deamons at bay and allowing for space travel.
Your comment feels like ignoring the whole setting, yes, they fall to chaos and/or xenos, that is not even open to debate.
At this moment? No. Humanity would die instantly if Big E were to die or be removed, due to the horrific mistake Magnus made in destroying the Webway Project. The Golden Throne doesn't just act as a beacon, it's a plug to stop the largest Chaos Rift in existence from spilling out across the galaxy. Big E dies without a replacement of comparable power (Malcador, Magnus), then it's over.
And you're being idealistic. What you're describing is the Golden Age of Humanity, which collapsed into the Age of Strife, BECAUSE they reached such heights with technology and society. Xenos allies turned on them immediately once they were weakened.
The Emperor is an arrogant tyrant, an autocrat who does have good intentions, but is blinded by his own need for expedient outcomes and powered by his ego. Yet he is necessary now. He was necessary in the Crusade. Necessary in the Heresy, and is necessary now.
He is a pillar that the Imperium can never shed. Once the Triumph at Ullanor happened, he became irreplaceable and necessary: A fact which many of his old allies criticized and complained about.
Shame. 🔫😒
Well since we know how the Horus Heresy ends *Spoiler*
It was the Emperors back up plan to be worshipped as a God to fight the Chaos Gods and from the Cipher (Dark Angel) novel, he will be killed to finally ascend and defeat Chaos Gods (Eye of Terror book not canon but a lord of change at the end said it and might have been the one the Lion himself fought)
First