Urban Plumber & Chief Heat Geek Put The World To Rights
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- Опубликовано: 17 апр 2024
- #heatgeek #heatpump #renewableenergy
In this episode, I take Adam Chapman from Heat Geek to Rye to visit a B&B running on 100% renewable heating and hot water with solar PV, heat pumps, and a couple of mixergy cylinders.
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From Javed at Magnolia House Rye: I learned a LOT from your visit and had a lot of fun on the way! Just to clarify a couple of points: The heating system started out with a gas boiler, hence all the zoning. I don't use HIVE anymore either - those are just switched on manually. Each guest room does come with its own A2A Heat Pump and that decision was more about guest comfort, inasmuch as I have to try to please all of the people all of the time. Quite happy to offer guided tours too 🙂
Thank you for showing us all your B&B, Javed. It's an especially interesting situation because as you've identified, guest comfort (through choice of temperature) is in a way in direct conflict with the concept of not zoning for efficiency, so using separate A2A is probably a good balance.
If you did not already have the A2A systems, I would have suggested looking at a VRF-HR air conditioning system in addition to the wet heat pump that you have. VRF-HR is essentially a multi-room A2A air conditioning system (So a single outdoor unit with multiple indoor units, that's the VRF part) but the HR stands for heat recovery meaning that it can simultaneously heat and cool - I.e. It can directly shift heat around between rooms.
Usually, VRF-HR is reserved for larger commercial-sized systems, but I think your B&B might be large enough for one. That would give you the benefit of weather-compensated heating without zoning while allowing guests to control individual room temperatures. Of course, that's a moot point now because you have already purchased the A2A systems, but maybe it's something to consider in the future when they are up for replacement.
Interesting to see you have a mix of A2A and A2W systems in the same room. I guess they can conflict if a guest likes it cool and sets the airconditioning on while the heating is also on. However it is a setup I had thought of for ourselves. We have a mid terraced house with gas heating at the moment and would like to switch that to A2W but the focus was going to be on heating the living room primarily with water and also the bathroom which has no outside walls. Then have A2A in the bedrooms so that we can keep the temperature there comfortable all year round especially in the heat of summer.
@@NickAskew The A2W is set to keep the rooms at a baseline 18c or near as dammit....I've had guests who like to bake themselves right next door to guests who prefer a much cooler room...come down and see for yourself 🙂
@@NickAskew I'd suggest you keep the gas boiler and add A2A. We have a gas boiler and two a/c minisplits - a system that I'm really happy with. MiniSplits are so cheap and simple to install and they heat the house for less cost than gas. Heat pumps aren't so good for hot water so we use the gas boiler for that. All house radiators are truned off except the bathroom towel rails, and the central heating comes on for just 15 mins in the morning to dry the towels. This hybrid system gives us so many options for heating and cooling. Our house is open plan - any internal doors are left open so the a/c units (2x 3.5kW) heat all 180sq.m. If people come to stay we could close bedroom doors and return to gas CH if necessary. We also have cooling if needed. Gas central heating is still an option if cheap electricity ended, or if climate chaos sent the temp to -15°C for months on end.
@@johnhunter4181 A very, very sensible setup. It was suggested to me that I also kept the Gas Boiler; the Mixergy Cylinders would have used that as a 'final' energy source. Ultimately it came down to a personal decision to get to get rid of it, and the gas meter (annual safety inspections and standing charges notwithstanding).
Thoroughly enjoyed this and look forward to the next one Si 😊
I ,a retired lawyer, purchased a gas boiler and installed it in my home and then got a “heating engineer “ to connect and test it. Perfect was his assessment. I saved £3000 from the cheapest quote I obtained. I was told two to three days labour. I did it in 6hours.
Unusual to find an educated individual good at manual work, but well done, I did the same.
Thanks for the mention Szymon! Yes the output of the ThermaSkirt 2 pipe system is around 60w/m of radiant heat with, like you said very little convection. As the skirting is delivering at a low level around the room, there is a high level of thermal comfort relative to the overall output... and don't forget, if the property is poorly insulated ThermaSkirt can be used in conjunction with normal sized rads to minimuse the impact on room space! :D
Keep up the awesome work!
The Thermaskirts work brilliantly :-) Absolutely no regrets on this part of the setup!!
Great video. That was a complicated wiring disaster for an install. Great to see Javid's enthusiasm and approach to his eco B&B. Hopefully with a few tweaks his system will run more efficiently.
thanks for that :-) Yup...the wiring could be better, and one day, it will be ;-)
FYI heatpumps have been used since 1968 in Sweden 🙂
what a great meeting of minds!
I’ve got to hold my hand up here, I am somewhat of a cynic when it comes to these installs due to the complexity and lack of education out there around them. However, I must say I found this video fascinating and really educational to watch. I still come down to the age old point it’s complicated and the size of installations needs to come down drastically to replace the age old box on the wall. Top video chaps a good watch 👍
It’s slowly getting better. Not as fast as we need though
Also if you look in one of those gas boxes they are not simple either. It will take time. software is going to be transformational to the user experience too.
Amazing video, I love all your content.
I've recently got a job with AIRA HOME and relocated, I wanted this job because engineers in my birth area are so negatively close minded about ASHP and set in their inefficient ways. Its sad to see so many engineers not care about our carbon emissions. I'm so happy you provide these very educational videos as it only encourages me to want to break away from these so called "Qualified Engineers"
Great stuff - keep plugging away at this Szymon.
That's the plan!
100% right on making design as simple as possible! It's a real issue in large commercial buildings as well
Thanks, really informative and interesting to see how different installations work out in practice, given the relative lack of maturity in the market and associated trepidation of us potential consumers.
As well as the expert critique of some aspects of the installation (insulation, pipe material etc) it would have been great to pick out the things that were done really well - and supplement with a bit more info on the actual performance of the system to make it a bit more real. Otherwise it's a bit like viewing the car in the showroom without taking it out on the road for a drive.
On the industry skills / mindset issues, the 5% perspective is interesting as it implies that perhaps the challenges around transitioning the sector to low carbon heating shouldn't be as big as they are sometimes represented. Talking to some installers who have successfully made the transition - i.e. unlearned their bad habits, refreshed their skills and got into the new mindset - would also make some good content.
Looking forward to future episodes.
As with others, really enjoyed watching this collaboration between two heating engineers who I've learned a huge amount from already as an engaged non-professional. Great to see an accommodation provider decarbonising their hotel and I'm hoping there are some EV chargers for guests to use too. In this day and age I find it remarkably how rare this still is. Aspect that surprised me most was that with all the effort that's been put in to design and construct such an elaborate system, that it was found to be running on a fixed flow temp. If there's something that you guys have drilled in to me, its the importance of running full weather compensation!
Great video, great case study and great conversation...
And that is something that I learned with Szymon's and Adam's visit, and shines a light on having a great installer (mine was) but in terms of knowledge & skill for commissioning and optimising the system, not so much. That's where Heat Geek and Urban Plumber videos were SO useful to me 🙂
And...there are FOUR 7.4kw Type 2 EV Chargers here on site too....2 for the public, and 2 just for my overnight guests 🙂
@@MagnoliaHouseRye I suspected that'd be the case and that's great to hear. Just wish it was more routinely available as it makes long journeys that much easier when you know you can rely on destination charging - as I'm sure you know. Hoping that this has helped boost the business by getting EV drivers to stay at the hotel.
Guys, One thing to bear in mind is that we've been having record warm weather. I well remember 1962/3, it was freezing for two or three months non stop. These days we are relying to a tremendous amount on wind power here in UK.
When there is a. " blocking" high pressure area there's often little to no wind, high moisture conditions around freezing which are ideal for inducing a death spiral for heat pumps.
Fortunately the government seems to realise we could be in for a wind generation defecit and they're embarking on building new gas generated electricity facility.
Today, in the UK, nearly 60% of our electricity was wind derived or imports. If we get into gear and fit 10 million heat pumps, just think of the day when we are becalmed.
I have a 16kw ashp and 4,000 litre buffers which I load up to 60°c. On Agile tariff I can pick my time to charge, balancing electricity costs and outside temperature. Just lately I have enjoyed up to 8.8p credit per kwh.
I'm in my 8th decade in this old house and we have never had any heating upstairs save for a portable oil stove in the Asian 'flu of the late 50's. We do have a radiant electric wall mount in one of the bathrooms, only used when occupied.
That sounds like a monster setup 🙂
Thank you Adam and Simon for such an honest assessment of the industry skill requirements and levels right now. Would you be able to find time to educate people like me who for now want to let the situation improve for a few years, before going for any boiler replacement.. however I would like to move to air to air heat pumps for our bedrooms in the eves which get very warm in summer, so cooling is a higher priority, but we would benefit from their heat production in cool weather and reduce our combi use accordingly. Is that a crazy plan and would you consider a video on the subject? Keep up the fantastic education of us all and thank you.
The conversation on the way back, was spot on. the problems you find in the UK are the same as we have in the Netherlands. A lot of old school installers, and they are given the task of installing new tech, and they install and commissioning it the old fashion way.
You guys are lucky there is heat geek and pro's like Urban Plumbers, we have nobody.
When do you roadtrip to the Netherlands?
love both channels learned a lot of you guys. Thanks keep the videos coming.
It will be interesting to see how this works out - Personally I wouldn't worry too much about heat loss from the pipework (IF the main system is within the B&B's envelope), as it appears that the outer envelope is well insulated.
Envelope from the inside out is this: Plaster board, 50mm insulation, Air Gap, Brickwork, Air Gap, Brickwork, Render. The roof had the 210mm superquilt; 140mm insulation between the floors.
You two have persuaded me to go down the heat pump route , I have ordered the new heat geek 450litre tank . It’s into a large property where two cascaded 11.2kw Mitsubishi are to be used , a lot of new insulation , triple glaze etc is being used .The installer is experienced , if it doesn’t work I’ll be calling on you guys for a visit :-) .
TWO 11.2kw jobbies? Wanna do a house-swap? 🙂
First question is are they correctly specified , in fairness they may have been on the cusp of 9kw , given it’s a money you might be welcome .
Thank you!
Brilliant initiative- taking the lead and leading the field in a commercial setting 👍 Also great collaboration- keep up the good work - education, education, education
And I'm still learning, learning, and learning....
@@MagnoliaHouseRye Everyday's a school day as the saying goes 😄
Could you post shorts on the full bore 3 port valve, and another on Y filter etc. They would be really good reference points.
love you two together. Educate. T
he industry is one of the last havens for people with real practical skills, now that we don't have much manufacturing, which is good, but there are some that will never get this stuff.
I’m at a loss why zoning is not recommended.
Especially for a B&B, with no room occupancy.
Interesting video, I see many issues with recirculating hot water.
Cheers from Oz
From Javed speaking as a non-engineer: In winter the ASHP keeps the building at a baseline temp (around 18c). I found through trial and error, empty or not, it became super-cheap to keep the ASHP running for about 12 hours a day. Now that Szymon and Adam have been through, I'll look into simplifying the system. The mass of wiring etc was a leftover from when I started with a Gas Boiler...
The two pipes that you thought maybe sensor pockets are the flow and return connections of the redundant coil. As a Mixergy heat from the top down the coils located in the upper half of the cylinder. Heat Pumps connect direct via the plate at the bottom. 🙂
Didn’t think mixergy had a coil at all - what the point of the coil if it’s plate loaded ?
@@UrbanPlumbers The coil is for Fossil fuel appliances. You can program the Mixergy for either Gas/Oil, Electric only (Immersion) or Heat Pump. The coils surface area isn’t large enough for Heat Pumps so it utilises the direct connection ports on the lower section of the tank. By doing this the advertised smart functions of the Mixergy are turned off, it needs to be set to 100% heated. As the heat source is now at the bottom there will be some form of stratification. The lift pump still operates to produce an even heat throughout the cylinder.
Just to add, you can buy Direct and Indirect Mixergys, but they both come with direct ports for the Hest Pump.
That is a very good install for a BnB it hits all the requirements of zoning to keep end users happy. A well thought out design, possibly not the best from a performance metric for heat pumps but our industry at the end of the day isn't about performance it is all about end user comfort. A by product of end user comfort can be performance but depending on the type of installation it should not necessarily take precedence.
not to mention my legendary breakfasts :-) Thank you for your positive comment; you should come down sometime 🙂
I think this was missed a little in the video.
It’s more about comfort than maximum efficiency, for a B&B.
@@pulporock I come from a commercial background dealing with hotels and office blocks. Zoning is a must because solar gain along with other factors can have a 5-10 degree C difference on average between one wing and another, or the bottom floor and the top.
There is only so much dynamic flow temperature can achieve, so you're either using mixing circuits per zone to keep them open flow, responding to per zone set temps which would be the most efficient way or on/off zone valves. On/Off is less efficient but cheaper to maintain and faster turn around on breakdowns.
Did anyone spot the Air to Air AC unit in the bedroom? If that is a HP model (most are) & they are replicated in all the bedrooms then I would have perhaps used them for heating & cooling each room & used the Air to Water for the Domestic Hot Water & perhaps heating any non-ac spaces. Just a thought & based on limited info from the video.
I think you should come over and experience it for yourself :-) To be honest I had the same thought but that was long after they were installed. But that's hindsight, and hopefully someone else can learn from it :-)
@@MagnoliaHouseRye Yes hindsight is a wonderful thing. 10/10 for your insight & determination to take on the changes needed to make your business more sustainable. Projects like this evolve over time & are subject to budget restrictions so are somewhat piece meal. Improvements are always possible & technology keeps evolving.
I had 48 years in the UK HVAC industry so I have lived with heat pumps of all types for all of my adult life at manufacturer, distributer & installer levels.
Rye is a fare way away from me but if I ever find myself in your neck of the woods I will look you up. Good luck with your business.
The only problem with pure A2A for heating is that it tends to be less efficient, at least on paper. I am under the impression that it's entirely down to the choice of refrigerant (R410A or R32 vs R290), as you also see exactly the same efficiency difference between older heat pumps (R410A) and newer heat pumps (R290). The problem with R290 in A2A heat pumps (And split A2W heat pumps) is that the refrigerant is an extra level up the flammability classifications (R32 is A2L and R290 is A3). The classification affects the maximum amount of refrigerant you can have based on the size of the rooms it goes through, the rule being that if the gas were to escape within a room, it must be sized such that it couldn't achieve a flammable mix. You can get around this with detectors and additional ventilation, but A2A manufacturers don't want those restrictions on their products.
I had this thought as I watched as well. Heat/Cool the rooms using air to air if the insulation is so good. Depends on model but SCOPs probably would be pretty comparable
I'm very surprised they made no mention at all of the splits.. That would seem a logical choice to give easy control to the guests in each room and then hot water + shared spaces with the A2L.
Seems like quite a hodgepodge setup, would definitely be interesting to know more about the install in general.
Very interesting video, plus an important distinction between safety qualifications and design / engineering qualifications. Do you think the NVQ level 2/3 will be re-vamped to include teaching heat pump system design?
You can do it via gas safe and G3 and water regs, i did this 40 years ago but i did do a craft apprenticeship. I did learn to do heat loss calcs by hand but was hard to do it on a cost basis when no one wanted to pay for this.
This has worked for him because of the superior levels of insulation he clearly has. It would have been interesting to know what insulation work was done to achieve the level of insulation required.
I added a 75mm timber frame internally to all the outside walls and stuffed it with 50mm insulation. The exterior walls are double-skin brick with an air-gap inbetween. Then had the whole lot re-rendered. Between the floors I installed 140mm insulation, and I filled up most stud walls too. I took the idea of getting as much thermal mass into the structure, and ran with it ;-) After that I just crossed my fingers. The extension and roof were done to current regs.
Thankyou, most helpful, did you upgrade your glazing at all?
@@andrewrudge5652 I replaced the windows with the usual uPVC double glazing. I opted for integrated blinds so I didn't have to clean them and I hate net curtains, but the added benefit is the shading they provide especially on the windows on the front of the building (nearly south facing).
I'd love to see a co2 heat pump designed for a setup like this 👌
They're expensive buggers but they make sense with large scale jobs like hotels and the like. Great videos and keep up the good work Szymon.
Co2 HP's are out there. Commercial & some residential models in Japan & Australia. I nearly installed a Sanyo in my house (UK) a few years ago but I couldn't make the cost stack up - no grants available back then.
I'm still unsure about CO2 for heating. It makes a lot of sense in a commercial cooling application where you have two desired temperatures (Fridges and freezers), but from my understanding (Which may well be incorrect) I can't see how it would benefit a heating application. Most of the marketing for heating-oriented heat pumps seems to be due to the lower CO2e of the refrigerant, rather than efficiency. There are also some claims about very high temperatures, but I'm yet to see any data with a direct and fair comparison against a modern (R290) heat pump.
The hardest thing is getting the registration for reccs and mcs, Oftec have been good and informative though. I am putting in a 12kW arotherm in running it at 40° split between radiators and UFH, hoping it’s going to work ok using them on two zones. Love what you are doing, and making things simple is the best way. 👍👍👍
Why two zones?
@@tlangdon12 it’s a large bungalow but has a loft conversion with one large bedroom and en-suite up stairs and a further three bedrooms and office. As it’s 12kW I’m putting a buffer in and keeping the UFH on one zone with a VDM 15 which does the living areas and radiators on a VDM 10 the other.
I would have liked to have the lot on one open circuit running straight from the heat pump. I just don’t have the bottle to do that though.
@@robharrison6918 Sounds fair enough. The VDMs should keep the efficiency up. But I wonder whether the customer might have benefitted from trying the system without zoning? It’s a difficult sell because the customer expects the engineer to be able to predict the system performance with a high degree of accuracy under all conditions, but the engineer doesn’t really know what the customer will find acceptable or what conditions will prevail when the customer is getting used to the system.
@@tlangdon12 ha ha, you will smile at this one. They are downsizing and the whole building has been gutted, some floors got broken up to allow for UFH others left as is. They are ready to get used to a whole new system and how the heating will operate. He said his wife may take a little convincing though. But this is the funny bit, they are both in their 70’s.
You would expect larger installation companies to have the advantage of being able to organise the right training for all their employees according to whether they are designing or installing etc. In practice I doubt many are making that investment and just rely on 1 or 2 people with enough knowledge to specify a functioning system and installers with the outdated current industry qualifications. Was certainly my experince of looking for a solar installer. ( and don't get me started on sales people with no clue about the product they are selling)
Great video. Did you say 13W/m2 and 300m2? Isn’t that 3.9kW? How did you get to 9 of 12kW? What did I misunderstand? Thanks
30 w /m2
@@UrbanPlumbers ah yes thanks!
Great video as always. Not convinced on EVs... I know this is a large building, but just look at the amount of room needed for all that gear.
I had to 'build in' a plant room for a 400 litre pumped cold water tank, the two 300L Mixergy's (their slimline design really helped) and a separate electrical cupboard for the monster distribution board. But in context, that lot has to run 8 double en-suite rooms, and my flat, and the breakfast room that seats 16 in one go..a semi professional kitchen.....come and have a look 🙂
A wiring schematic more useful than neat but both would be best.
you were talking about Legionella and 55C once a week. With a gas combi where the hot water is continuously being changed, is there any risk of Legionella if hot water only ever set at say 40C?
What about MCS?
I feel supper regulated by MCS, I have two audits going on at the moment my regular and got selected by MCS for an additional audit. I am retiring next year and can't wait to get out from under MCS.
Yes, MCS is just a red tape nightmare that serves no one and helps no one
MCS?!?! Suffice to say they'd be better placed doing quality control for chocolate teapots...
I find this video both encouraging and worrying in equal measure:
not that we need a new boiler at present but, the time will come. Our house is an old property, some of it 18th century, some 19th century and the remainder 20th. The previous owner did a lot of renovation and most of it, seemingly reasonably well. Yes, there are cold cold walls (solid stone) and others which seem OK as they have been dry lined and, we have been assured, they meet requisite building regulations. Certainly, copious exploration with a thermal camera and things look ok. No radiators, just hydronic underfloor in 14 zones. Thermal store, oil boiler (no gas here). The house is about 3,600 square foot.
It seemed to me that most heating engineers follow existing practice (which is fine, to a degree) and that few of them had invested the time and effort to really understand how to install heat pumps. It also seemed that an OK job could be done by the average engineer but that it really wasn't likely to be an exceptional job and the house would cost more to heat in the long run. As a retired engineer myself, I really do appreciate the importance of proper design and this video conforms everything that I thought.
Soon after we moved here I approached a renewable energy company to see how much a conversion to a heat pump would cost. Having established the basics his next question was "Do you have three phase?" - slightly concerning for us as a) we don't and, b) three phase suggests high running costs!
Having later discovered Heat Geek, just out of interest I went to the Heat Geek site and entered my post code. The system told me that the expected heat loss from our property was too high to be suitable for Heat Geek consideration!
Not that we need a heat pump right now (as I said earlier), but it doesn't feel great that the Government "was" (and maybe still is?) pushing heat pumps as the answer to every prayer, yet a proportion of household stock isn't considered attractive for a quality, data driven installation !
Would love to know more about ThermaSkirt / skirting board heating. Do they still work if you put furniture e.g. a bed or sofa in front of them? I'd imagine it's a bit like UFH heating up screed in that case.
I'm guessing it's better to supplement existing heating rather than entirely replacing rads, unless you have very low heating requirements per m2 like this b&b.
I don't like skirting radiators but may because I spent the 80's ripping it out. It was always minted up, it never got cleaned especially once covers were painted and they couldn't be got apart.
I have no regrets whatsoever. I have found that putting things in front of them hasn't made a difference at all. The warm air coming off them tends to rise upwards in a confined space, like the beds. And they give me the benefit of not having to clean behind them, and one less bit of 'wall clutter'...
I feel it would be more correct to say there is less convection with the heated skirting rather then none, you still have a heated surface which will result in the warmed air rising and being replaced with colder air from floor level in the middle of the room. It's no different to the lower convection you get from any given radiator when you reduce the flow temp from say 60 on a gas boiler to 40 deg on a heat pump.
Really enjoyed listening to your chat!
Finding Heat Geek level engineers who are happy to work on oil systems seems really hard. Are there any out there or are more heating engineers happy to work on an oil system given it’s just a different heat source? 😅
you mentioned the removal of the ports and balancing the valves, letting the system settle because of things like solar gain and then tweaking it again to male it comfortable. Is this something you would expect to do seasonally or just on initial commissioning?
Once set up at cold weather it would be pretty much self regulating form there onwards.
I’m curious about whether you think this installation might have been bettering implemented using two heat pumps, one weather-compensated for heating, and one running at a fixed flow temperature for hot water production, perhaps with solar thermal to increase efficiency in the summer?
Great video, the more efficient we can make the installs, the more likely others will follow. Javed has done a wonderful job with his B&B. Thanks to you both for your efforts to educate the sector 👏
The Mixergy Cylinders have been, and are, completely central to this installation and enabled me to start with Gas, add Solar and then finally replace the Gas with the ASHP. That was over a 2 year period, with absolutely no regrets whatsover!
That installation looked like the engine-room of the Nautilus. Captain Nemo would feel at home there! I hope things are more compact and less complicated in a standard house. It would be nice to hear whether the owner's heating and hot water now costs him less, as I'm thinking of going down the pellet-burner/cooker route to get away from costly electricity. Great video, nevertheless. I'm still sceptical about heat-pumps, but if things can be improved by better understanding of how different individual house requirements are, I could be persuaded. Looking forward to seeing more.
From Javed at Magnolia House Rye: You're not the first to compare the plant room to that of a submarine, LOL. But...I started out with Gas, hence all the valves. With regards to my utility bills..they have crashed through my insulated floor. BUT...I do have Solar, use Octopus Agile, am able to shunt most of my grid consumption to overnight so it is a 'holistic' approach...come down and see it in action 🙂
@@MagnoliaHouseRye Hi Javed. That's really good to hear that your bills have come down. I'm just about to move to a house near Stornoway in the Outer Hebrides. The Winter's are notoriously long (I've been living in Uist for three years, so I have experience of the weather here). I'm going to need something that can meet the challenge. The house I'm buying has electric Rointe radiators, an immersion heater and electric shower, so that's all going to be ripped out! Looking for a good alternative now. There is no mains-gas and oil/LPG is even more expensive as it has to be shipped from the mainland.
@@petergriffin4167 WOW! A gorgeous place to live, no doubt, but with its own challenges. I'm down on the South Coast so my solar works very well. I'll be installing a 15kw battery system this year so perhaps look in to a Solar, Battery & Smart Hot Water Cylinder combo? In this regard I LOVE my Mixergy tanks :-) Best of luck and you know where to come when you need a holiday 🙂 Oh....and insulate, insulate and insulate some more...
@@MagnoliaHouseRye ❤
I'm considering that Thermaskirt to replace my 8mm plastic microbore piping to very old radiators and getting a heat pump in the summer. Does anyone else have experience of them at low flow temperatures?
I am running mine at 40c flow temp and after Szymons and Adam's visit, can take that even lower 🙂 BUT...Thermaskirts are disproportionately expensive...
@@MagnoliaHouseRye Thanks, did you look at other alternatives? I'm also considering UFH but retrofitting that whilst living here would be tough! With my current microbore I've had recommendations for a high temp heat pump and running at much higher temps.
@@londoner6040 I have UFH for the ground floor, which is my flat and the breakfast room. It's all about your own use-case. I went down the Thermaskirt route for the guest rooms to keep my walls clear, both from an aesthetics point of view and also one less thing for me to clean 🙂 Dusting behind radiators is a serious pet hate of mine!!
Intrigued to understand if planning permission was required for the outdoor units. I’m currently going through PP on an ASHP and it’s been going on for nearly 6 months now.
Mine didn't require planning permission, and the ASHP is located at the back of the building, nearly to the centre of the building and several metres from any neighbours. It is also right under a guest-room window...and not a single mention of any fan noise; they are really as quiet as they say :-) Good luck on your install!
Mini splits everywhere lol
Great for heating on cold days :)
On a cold day the mini-splits only have to work to add 4 to 6 degrees to a room = happy guests. And really don't cost a lot to run!
@@MagnoliaHouseRye "Lotts to do hear”. As he enters the plant room lmao $
4 to 6 degrees is the difference between cold and warm room.
Nobody wants to rent a room in the winter at 16 degrees 20 if fine for men but most women are happy at 22, I install into offices and am well aware of the controller battle between the men and women :)
But at least there are very good and efficient for heating a room.
The money sunk in that place would give me an early grave, ducted splits all day long, no waste at all really in a well-insulated room,
And so, so so much cheaper.
Just in call outs and added extras must be a tesla (so far)
@@timbrooks2763 Thankfully I'm never in the guest room to mediate over who gets the remote control for the AirCon unit :-) What I can tell you is that AirCon is a rarity in this country in general and Rye specifically. SO it's also a differentiator / "useful feature" for those who want climate control in their rooms. And believe me, my guests LOVE it 🙂
Fair play to the owner for taking as much initiative and getting involved to this extent toward his learning of the system. Sadly that’s what’s necessary to truly understand the installation of a heat pump at present. There are too many pitfalls and too many variables for the lay person to get their head around toward system design that what you end up with instead is a replacement gas boiler. I feel this is the issue. The summary of the video by the chap from Heat Geeks concurs to some degree. People are too afraid to retro fit so it seems more likely a case that those willing to give this a go will be the ones in a position for a full refit of the property at the time. This is idealistic. Not realistic. A gas boiler for all of its negatives will just overcome a lot of the above considerations for the average consumer and be done with it. In my own experience I fitted a A2W heat pump in my small new build property but I fitted a Vaillant Eco Pro in the existing house next door which was Victorian and could not achieve the same level of EPC despite a full refurb. My 2 cents worth !
You are SO right! It's a bit like being a new car driver - you only "really" learn after you've passed your test and make it out to the open road. Here, all the equipment was installed over a period of time and only then did I start with the tweaks, settings and generally playing about with it until I think I got it right. The hardware is out there; skill and knowledge is lacking which is why the likes of Urban Plumbers and Heat Geeks are such legends, inho...
Training is not just an issue for the heating industry. The cause is chronic underinvestment by the British government all Industries are suffering. The focus has been on university with the assumption being Business would pay for technical training via the Apprenticeship levy. This just hasn't happened in the numbers required and the system is broken as many employers do not take advantage. Britain is all about training on the cheap which produces poorly trained people.
Trouble is the training isn’t cheap at all. It’s just really really bad.
Nice choice of car Simon 😁I have MG4 and have been electric from 2016, I will never go back to i,c,e,
Hire car. Good range but drives like a tank on wobbly springs. Wouldn’t buy one
Should have gone for the Polestar!
Next episode of ‘Heat Pump Rescue’ will have a Polestar. Thinking about it a Pole Star is a no brainier for me 🤣🤣🤣
@@UrbanPlumbers LOL
In a bnb/hotell, with low seasons and large areas with 0 usage / no persons for perhaps weeks, a zoning seems ok? It should reduce the overall electrical bill.
Normally i would not recommend zoning, just balance the diffrent flows, ifs it possible.
I still think it could be run open loop with temp limiters set to low or set back out of season
Is it possible to avoid a buffer tank or low loss header if you have UFH manifolds upstairs and downstairs on the same heat pump?
Yes, we do it all the time
I have a mid terrace house in the Netherlands. It has three floors and is currently heated by gas. It has been apparently the law/rule here for some years that boilers and thermostats have to be modulating and ours use OpenTherm (this just means that the thermostat can tell the boiler how hard to work based on the difference between target and current temperature).
We can set a target temperature for particular times of the day and I believe the thermostat "learns" how far in advance it needs to start the boiler. So if we want the living room at 19C at 7am then the boiler might need to run from 6:30AM on a relatively warm day but 6AM on an extra cold day. I'm not sure if the thermostat is smart enough to figure this out, but it does not measure outdoor temperature only the current and target temperature. I suppose it can "learn" for each degree off the target, how far in advance it needs to start.
I keep hearing about weather compensation altering the flow temperature based on the outdoor temperature. I understand that to keep the COP as high as possible you don't want to run the ASHP intermittently so by lowering the flow temperature the room will warm more gradually and ideally deliver just enough heat to compensate for the heat loss to outdoors. But I am still curious why the system advocated is based on outdoor temperature and not indoor.
BTW I used to live in the UK (30 years ago) and I think I'm right in saying that most houses did not as such have a room thermostat controlling the boiler, they just had a timer and thermostatic radiator valves were not common either. Is this background of relying on timing rather than thermostatic control an influence?
Outdoor temperature can tell you how much heat you need to add to your house to keep it at desirable temperature and can regulate flow temperature accordingly. Indoor temperature only tells you if you need more or less heat, not how much. Though if you like me live in an old uninsulated and not wind tight house a combination of the 2 would probably be best since wind speed and direction can make a big difference how much the house is chilled, which just using the outside temperature don't take into account (At least my 20 yo HP don't take wind into account, perhaps newer does?)
@@scania9786 I think I can see an argument for both but I still can't see how exterior alone would be effective. Possibly I'm missing something, but surely you want to turn the heating off once you reach the target temperature indoors.
I guess that a system that learns by historical trial and error based on internal and external measurements would be more accurate than internal only.
What do I say to my installer who says 'of course you need a buffer to reduce the cycling of the pump'?
But can the grid support such increase in base load with all of those heat pumps? We have to do a multi-million dollar upgrade of our building complex's electrical distribution system just to be able to support all units if they choose to get a heat pump or a stage 2 EV charger...
The ASHP runs off a 32 amp / 7kw supply and very very rarely runs with this sort of load for any amount of time. In the main it chugs along a 1 to 3 Kw....
@@MagnoliaHouseRye Right, but in our complex every house gets a 110V/20A hookup, granted, they are not 300m^2, each unit is ~100m^2. But there's ~100 of them in the complex, so those add up really fast. And for the entire neighborhood to convert we'd have to dig up everything and change every sub-station and those distribution transformers, etc... So as much as these are cool, I don't really think it's feasible in certain countries at the time being. I'm currently running a 98% efficiency direct flow heater and a 96% efficiency forced air furnace using natural gas and it works out quite well.
@@berkano_plays It does help that I have a 3-phase (400V and 300amp) supply. Come and visit...I'll give you a PAID guided tour but will throw in a free room for the night and I'll even cook you breakfast and let you charge your EV 🙂 My 'mission', if you will, was to set this place up so that it never has to burn anything ever again...
I thought it was in building regs, above 150m2 building should be zoned. Zoning makes sense with gas boiler.
And that's what I started with..a 40Kw Worcester Bosch 8000 Greenstar something. My utility costs are through (my insulated) floor 🙂
Can you have a conversation with Dale Vince? I’d love to hear you guys chew the cud…
I feel upset 😂 after watching your video. After so many years of installing and commissioning incorrectly condensing boilers, just for the last year, I finally started installing them correctly(they are fully condensing now and with PDHW setup and WC or OT). Give me another 20 years, and I will be installing correctly heat pumps 😂.
Don't be upset....come down here for a night or two and take your mind away from it 🙂
What was the cost of all the equipment and labour for that plant room , also the cost of A2A units in each guest room ?
Yup....wasn't cheap. But...the refurb of the building required a new installation of everything from the wiring to the pipework to the windows. I also received grant funding (LoCASE & BUS) and the cost savings does mean I can treat the expense as an investment, with a rate of return and hand on heart, this lot WILL pay for itself :-)
@@MagnoliaHouseRye It’s obviously only financially viable because of the 2 grants subsidising the installation.
As for the installation the fact you have humongous a2a units in each room suggests the HP cannot cope with cold and high demand.
Looking at your website and your b&b looks lovely. 👍
@@haydnlawrence8167 You should come and see us 🙂 The A2A's run at 10amps peak (ie not for very long at all) before power consumption falls right off. Plus, the A2A's are a guest-feature and also gives me a back up method of heating in case the ASHP and / or their immersion elements fail.
@@MagnoliaHouseRye The a2a as a back up for the HP makes sense .
If ever I’m in that neck of the woods and need a b&b will try yours. Prefer the independents to the corporates.
Dreaded hive!😯
It looks very complicated - pipes, displays, cables everywhere. Good luck if theres no hot water one day
If the ASHP fails to deliver hot water, I can switch the cylinders to the immersions. Another advantage of the Mixergy cylinder is that I only need to drain off the top quarter of the tank if I need to change the immersion element, and would take me all of 20 mins. So there are two methods by which hot water can be produced and it's always good to have a back up in this business 🙂
Looking forward to the next episode. why not visit a UK Heat Pump factory?
yes - that would be awesome. I dont think there are many - Vaillant is the only one made in the UK that I am aware of
@@UrbanPlumbers There is a company in Newton Aycliffe called Ebac. There owner is called John Elliot, I'm sure if you were to call him he'd be delighted to show you around the factory.
@brianwood5220 are those made in the UK?
@@UrbanPlumbers Yes, all made in their factory there.
I don't understand why hot water radiant is needed in addition to the mini-splits. Mini splits are very efficient on their own.
The mini-splits are there for guest comfort 🙂
Looks a really neat job ?! . AIR 2 AIR so much more simple than that !
How do you control room temps without room stats?. Just flow rates ????
There is just one stat for the ASHP to set a minimum temp (18c or near as dammit) and then the guests can fix their desired temperature, up or down, as they wish. And believe me, you can have 2 adjacent rooms where one is heating and the other is cooling. That being said, after Szymon and Adam's visit, it is clear to me there are some more efficiency gains to be had!
I should add I want to prove its viable for large properties .
quality
Only in the UK, can someone whos done a 6 month course, call themselves an Engineer😂
Just another thought and video idea. You discussed the future of where heat pump adoption is going to go in the future. Cost is a MAJOR factor above all else your customers ARE wealthy compared to the majority of the population. HOW could you do an install that would cost no more than a straight boiler install. So the idea is could you do a like for like install for £3k and if not how close could you get based on current tech available grants etc. Customers do not care at all what the fuel is they care only about the £ most naysayers won't be able to afford the current tech which creates resistance.
Interesting, but when is somebody going to highlight the phasing out of HFC & HFO refrigerants currently used in most commercially available heat pumps over the next 10 to 15 years, such that you will NOT be able to obtain replacement refrigerant?😮
IN 10-15 years no doubt I'll be replacing the ASHP anyway (?). And if Hydrogen ever becomes a thing (yeah right) then at least I have the "infrastructure" to integrate it, should that day ever come...
Nvq lev 2 and 3 has to be updated to do installs and. Calculations with air to air , I still feel in addition to a practical and theory examination it should be part of all apprenticeships core requirements that has to be signed off, there has been far to many problems with installation done by companies that set up purely for the grant , 9th home owners left go pick up with the problems, this practice by one common company with a flame shows this is still going on with extremely poor quality on inspection quoting for items already there , and not correctly assessing heat loss . Needless to say I went elsewhere
Engineers are degreed qualification most heating installers are technicians or fitters not engineers this is the dumbing down of engineering sector but the content of the vid is great as always, one item though in commercial installations isn't the dead leg of the DHWS meant to be 1m so the reduce water wastage amongst other things?
Thanks Szymon for bringing another collaboration video with Adam. I know neither of you like zoning very much but I'm curious of your thoughts about the NRG manifold (ruclips.net/video/5eYHGq3MbFU/видео.html) and whether the claims made make sense and are an efficient way effectively zoning a heat pump?
So why did he do it and doesn’t now in our trade there are two kinds people who can pass assessments and people who can manually do the job but not many that can do both well
12:24 You congratulated the owner on his instal at the end. Only problem is it don't seem to work very well and probably cost him 60 000 pounds.
I'm not getting defensive here but I didn't spend 60 grand 🙂and yes, after much tweaking the system works brilliantly as far as I am concerned. My metrics are guest satisfaction (very high) and utility bill (very, very low). Come over and experience it for yourself :-)
It is expensive, complicated,need specialists to install and maintain,and short life,relies on a constant electricity supply......I stick to my rayburn.
It is expensive, but has a payback period. Complicated? Yes, but so is driving a car, so we invest the time to learn about these things. Same goes for maintenance. Short life; the hardware has the same life-expectancy of typical hot water and heating system (the Solar Panels even longer). I'll stick to my Viking 6-pan 30Kw induction hob 🙂
Shame previous governments took away apprenticeships, a full apprenticeship is so much better than a 4 week crap gas course just to get qualified. What we are all seeing now 🤠🤠🤠
There is a difference between between doing and teaching why does heat geek not do the the job has Adam been on the tools before never seen him actually doing the job gets others to do the job
he manual side just showing
Yes mate he is a legit installer. Used to do amazing installs
So I’d have to change most of my radiators and also hot water tank in my 6 year old house. Then find a location to fit this ugly giant thing in my garden. To save what? Few hundred year? 😂 yeh makes sense that
You are missing the point of heat pumps; they are not supposed to save you money. They are being implemented to be sustainable - the gas and oil we burn in our boilers is going to run out. You will be happy with a heat pump once there is no gas because it will be your only option.
@tlangdon12 still, you can make them much cheaper to run than gas or oil
So..."only one heat pump"...apart from the extra A2A heat pump(s)? Pity, otherwise a good video.
Your conclusions at the end sum up the definition of “engineer” - you need to know the maths, theory and design - upskilling the plumbers and gas fitters need that to warrant themselves calling themselves “heating engineers” - over time it starts to devalue those who are well trained and learnt…
Dude really really needs to keep eyes on the road when driving 😮
Yes amazing but urban is too expensive
There is expensive and there is value for money, which I believe we are the best value for the service we provide.
He doesn't seem to be expensive for the customers who have booked him up for months and months in advance, Symon is one of the top heat pump engineers in the country and always achieve high efficencys and top quality installations - i would say that deserve a higher than usual price. You don't shop at waitrose and expect to get tesco value products...
@@BristolHeatPumps If I knew then what I know now, I'd have paid the premium.
If he was too expensive he wouldn’t be busy. What you really mean is you can’t afford him.
£ 25.000 for a heating system. That's expensive
Stop eating on camera!
When Adam is hungry he eats !
@urbanplumbers. What’s your view on the slave labour involved in mining the lithium iron battery for your electric car? Or is that just another negative you ignore to push your product you sell?
Err lithium comes mostly from Australia, maybe get your facts straight.
Maybe you're thinking of cobalt, which is largely being phased out of EVs and there isn't really any link especially considering there are other industries that use it, e.g. desulphurisation for petrol and diesel.
I mean pretty much every lithium iron battery has cobolt in it. So saying lithium battery mining is pretty much the same thing. Not sure my facts are that far off there. Cobotl production has doubled in the last decade and still rising so say whatever you want about what they may or may not be doing in the future it’s still happening now and has been happening. Electric car batteries far out weigh any other use for cobolt.
@@jamiebrown8437 False equivalence then, rather than fact. And that applies to the battery in your phone, tablet and/or laptop. EVs have started changing to techs like LiFePO4 which don't have any cobalt. So yeah, your facts are way off.
what an overpriced waste of money
you do realise that he can run his business now without having to worry about gas and electricty bills?
I recently had a Sunday, my most energy intensive day where it's a full house of 16 guests, 16 cooked breakfasts, 18 showers and it cost me 80 pence of grid-purchased electricity. This lot will pay itself back and then some, without a single gram of carbon being released into the atmosphere. Tell me again I've wasted money :-)